flying kites?

[Darren Greenhalgh]

hey ladies and gents,

have a question for you.

since the vast majority of time i am single handed on my dragonfly - when i fly the kites i tend to find that i have way less to worry about if i have the main down.  

so, here is my question.  i know most manufacturers recommend, or at least that is what i have "heard" that they do not recommend flying kites without the main up.  i can only assume that there is a very heavy load in the fore of the boat to cause people / manufacturers concern without there being tension on the back of the mast from the main to compensate for the tension the kites put forward on the mast.

so, what i do, and please tell me if i am wrong, is i have the main sheet tight - so that puts tension on the topping lift - therefore, creating pressure toward the stern of the boat as if the main was up.  am i fooling myself?  or is this legit?

i havent done any specific testing on my boat - say "with this angle of wind" and "this specific kite" with the main "up or down" - what my speeds are, but i find that i can tune the kites easier without the main interfering with the crazy winds we get in the san juans.  i can only assume that i will get better speeds with both up.

managing just the kite when trying to douse it - would be easier i think with the main up, but that and probably better speeds are the only big benefits i cant think of right now.  

would love to get your opinions on this.  tell me where i am wrong.  i have learned so much from this group - i appreciate all of your expertise - that this sailing hack does not have.

thanks,

d

 

dragonfly 1200

anacortes 

[William Quigley]

Hi Darren,
Yes there is a lot of load on the top of the mast when you are flying
the spinny, and a lot of that load is transferred back through the
mainsail and the mainsheet. However, unless you're flying
spinnaker-no-main in 20+ kts of breeze, I don't think there's any harm
in leaving the mainsail furled. And trimming the topping lift and
mainsheet is also going to transfer a lot of that load to the
traveler, where it should be. Unless your topping lift is really, very
small, it's likely that it can handle the spinnaker load.
For me, sailing singlehanded, the biggest reason to keep the main up
is that you can go very deep and blanket the spinny, and that makes
for a much easier jibe. Often when I turn down and sail at a very high
AWA right before a jibe, it feels like you're barely moving, and I
think, "Right, this is what sailing a monohull downwind is like!"
Bill

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[Colin Lindsay]

I don't think you are wrong at all.

Aside from the spinnaker aspect, I like flying headsails on their own sometimes when there is lots of wind or when it's drizzling and I don't want to take down our boom tarp over the cockpit. Once during the first summer we owned our boat we just felt lazy and didn't want to take the cover off and raise the mainsail for a short downwind hop from Port Townsend to Mystery Bay only a few miles away. It was super fun ghosting south and over the sandbar with the centerboard up using just the genoa.

Our topping lift is dyneema for this reason. I've been on some boats where the topping lift didn't seem very strong and I wanted ours to be low stretch and strong enough to help pull the mast back when I tension the mainsheet, not just support the weight of the boom and mainsail. 

How important this is probably depends on whether you have a masthead kite or not, how big the kite is and what windstrengths you fly it in. Without the main up you can angle the boom to windward with the traveller so the topping lift is better positioned to support the force of the headsail than the mainsheet would be if the mainsail was set. I don't bother to do that, but maybe it would be a good idea in some sketchy hypothetical scenario. 

 I agree that the mainsail can be helpful for keeping the spinnaker collapsed in the lee of it when raising or dowsing. And at hotter angles the main definitely boosts boatspeed by adding to your sail area crosssection that the wind sees, and maybe there is also a slot affect. The only other benefit to having the main up is that you can keep steerage way when you dowse the spinnaker without starting the engine.

The trouble singlehanded is that you have to steer fairly low to blanket the spinnaker when hoisting or dowsing and without a dedicated person at the helm that is tough without accidentally jibing.

 I don't have an autopilot and we JUST got the asym set up on our TT720 so I haven't tried it singlehanded yet, but I think in gentle winds it would be possible with some jumping back and forth and some careful use of the tiller tender (just locks the tiller in place with friction, doesn't steer a course). With a true auto helm that had a remote I'd think it would be relatively easy, as long as the winds weren't too strong. 

[Northwest Multihull Association Membership Officer]

I've broken my topping lift twice sailing without the main up.. OR the spinnaker - just jib only. The second time because I forgot that config was how I broke it the first time!

My problem probably wasn't exactly the load from the sail, but the purchase on the main sheet combined with some load from the sail.

After the first time I agreed with Joanna - no sailing with the main down without moving the main halyard to the end of the boom. And then forgot. 🤣

And the fact that the first time my topping lift (strop) was the thinnest lashing dyneema you can buy, and the second time it was upsized a lot but the 2:1 block it was attached to was undersized, and not properly specced.

My general idea with the topping lift is that it should be a backup main halyard - so it is thinner dyneema than the actual main halyard to work with the existing sheaves & holes, but 2:1 and long enough. BUT - to attach it to the end of the boom I used a much thinner ~16 foot strop to the 2:1 block (ie: the same spot I'd attach the main sail if needed) - this makes a small improvement in moving the topping lift out of the way of the crane/straps for craning in and out. 

So the new plan is a low friction ring rather than a block. ;-)

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Paul English

Membership Officer NWMA

membe...@northwestmultihull.org

[Peter Lucas]

When not sailing, my main halyard is stowed at the end of the boom. I thought this was common. So if I'm going to sail with no main, there is no need to remember to put the main halyard where it already is. I would not rely on my very small topping lift to hold the top of the mast against a spinnaker.

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[Shaun Heublein]

Hi Darren, 

My $0.02: no main with head sails fine to do, especially in light winds. ONLY if you topping lift is strong enough to be a back stay would I consider using it as a mast support. Look at all the connections. I don't know how your topping lift is rigged but look how it is connected to the boom, the size and strength of any blocks in the system, don't forget about how it is connected at the top of the mast, how big are those sheeve or pins, and the structures they are built into, how big are the screws attaching the cleat to the side of the mast. Where the topping lift terminates..,if yours is lead back to the cockpit, how strong are all of those turning blocks and the structures they are attached to. A good stuff into a bowerboat wake will eventually show you the weakest link. 

Not having the main to blanket the headsail means you will need to be more aware of your true wind. It will be more difficult to douse with out the main. I assume you are using a furler or a dousing sock, they both have limits

, our sock can be hard to start down if there is a large load on the sail. 

Your 40' DF is a big boat so this is likely not as much of an issue with your wheel steering and the components are strong enough but I would think there would be the potential to generate high loads on the rudder, especially if you are not running deep apparent wind angles. It's easy to get way out of balance with only a big headsail up. 

Shain

[Paul English]

Same - I store my main halyard at the end of the boom. But the starting condition is what changes - if I start sailing with a main, or rig it to sail.... then change my mind and go jib, screecher or spinnaker only..

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[Darren Greenhalgh]

thanks everyone for the info - much appreciated.

my topping lift is connected to the mast head with a 10mm dynnemma soft shackle and it passes through a low friction ring directly at the mast head.  my topping lift might be different than all of the F boats out there.  i have a 12 mm halyard line that starts on the end of the boom - travels up to the mast head - through the low friction ring - then back the the back of the boom where it started.  maybe switching to a dyneema line would be smarter?

also, my spinnaker is a fractional rig - not a masthead rig.

from what i hear - thanks again everyone - i'm glad my thought process was not all that off.  i think there is a benefit to sailing with the main, but it is also a lot less to worry about when single handing.  

question.  do any of you fly a symmetrical kite?  i really like mine - its a bit smaller and more manageable than the asym., and super easy to sail directly downwind - and very maneuverable.  directly downwind doesnt happen often, so i fly my asym (its a big girl) more often, but find that my main seems to steal some of its wind.  i guess i have to do some tests and get good data with my boat with various set ups.

would you all suggest to change out the topping lift with less stretch line?

thanks again,

d

[Darren Greenhalgh]

hey shaun,

thanks for the info - both of my kites are socked.  i thought it would be easier to manage them single handing, but do understand it still can be tough to get them to behave in stronger winds.  

thanks,

d