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Luther Lazaro
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I suppose it is a matter of opinion whether to capitalize the "VERY" in
your post. I personally think it is absurd to force the non-use of an FPU
for MATHEMATICS software!! As we move into faster processor chips
(particularly the powerpc) will we get pushed into the absurd situation of
being forced to run the software in emulation mode? The NeXT academic
community used to get the software INCLUDED with their computers however
when they paid for "upgrades" suddenly their multiuser programs (the
point of UNIX computing) suddenly had code inserted to force it to be
single user.Deep breath.... I guess my point is I have severe philosophic problems
with a company who intentionally cripples their software before selling
it to educational organizations. In my opinion if Wolfram wants to sell
less for less to education, I would BEG them to consider selling full
speed software with smaller libraries. I'd say most, by far, of the
academic users of Mathematica could get away with 25% of the capability
of the program. I personally believe they would get far more market
penetration in this manner.Back to your particular question, after using the PowerPC native version,
there is NO WAY I would go back to a non-FPU version of any kind. It has
to be 5-10 times faster.just my $.02
: Thanks in advance!My understanding is that if you purchase the student version, you can
upgrade to the full-blown version for a fee. The total cost is still
less than buying the full-blown version outright. : Kale Beckwitt
: ka...@uclink2.berkeley.edu
I have to say, your response to Kale's question has some problems. Most of them are in the second paragraph. To start, the Student Version of Mathematica is not what is sold to "educational orgainizations". In fact, universities typically own an enhanced versions site license for a mix of platforms. This is the case at the University of Illinois. The Student Version, as its name implies, is marketed towards the student.To claim that Wolfram Research has "intentionally crippled" the student version is absurd. The decision was to offer a lest costly product so that students, typically college ones, could afford the software. The lower price means lower performance. In this case, lack of coprocessor support."I'd say most, by far, of the academic users of Mathematica could get away with 25% of the capability" Again, I disagree. I, as a student, find myself using 50-60% of the packages on a regular basis. I have probably loaded closer to 80% of the packages, but rarely used some of them. To reduce the number of "libraries" doesn't make sense since they are readily available to any Mathematica user. You were right in one respect. The enhanced version is faster. 5-10 times faster, I don't think so. 4 times, in intesive calculations, probably. The student version will give the same results as any other version. Is it worth it to buy the student version vs the enhanced? I don' know. How impatient are you and how much do you have to spend? Your PowerPC is a great machine. Try running the Student Version on it, you'll be surprised by the results.
etc etc...Hello? Gee, unless you want to do something UNUSUAL like NUMERICAL
CALCULATIONS...(And what kind of mathematica user would have that in
mind....) And compare the native code version of mathematica running on a
powerpc macintosh to a student version running under 68040 emulation on
the same computer. That is NOT a 4 times slower. Wolfram's OWN
ADVERTISING gives numbers like 17 seconds versus 109 seconds (on a Quadra
700, presumably running an enhanced version...) For those with a new
PowerMac check out the sample software from Wolfram on the CD sampler.Questions for WOLFRAM rep...(surly mode on...)1) Will there ever be a native (student) version of Mathematica for the
powerpc. Hypothetically, if there was no MacIntosh for sale powered
by something other than a power-pc would this be a factor in your
policy, or should we just be thankful that Mathematica wasn't first
created in the 8088 era?
2) What will happen to the current user base when OS for Mac and INTEL
computers become multi-tasking? (Both mac and windows claim that is
coming within the next year.) Will you slip code into student version
which checks to see if there is a session already running? Is that code
already there?As an aside, I have been using Mathematica while teaching my high school
math (and computing) courses since 1988-89. I am the leading proponent of
increasing computer use, specifically Mathematica, at my current school -
Choate Rosemary Hall. While visiting Middlesex academy for a school
recertification visit last week, I noticed that Mathematica was installed
but virtually unused on their computers. (Note of interest, Middlesex and
Choate have both been listed in ads from Wolfram..)I am becoming the math department chair at a third school, Kinkaid in
Houston Texas. I would very much like to continue working with
Mathematica there, but there is no way I will pay more than $200 per
license and, on principle, no way I would purchase any mathematics
software which has intentionally been crippled so as not to make use of
either an advanced processor or an FPU. Honestly, the only way I would
recommend purchasing Mathematica would be to purchase used NeXT
workstations which include an academic license.Wolfram must realize that they have almost ZERO penetration of the
(fairly) large high school market. I firmly believe that their bottom
line would be increased significantly if they came out with a
"Mathematica lite" version which used a kernal which actually fits onto a
8 meg computer. Provide the full processing speed and let the schools
purchase more libraries as they decide they need them.As for me, MathCad is offered for $49 with the Maple libraries. I don't
want to learn a new environment, but I suppose it isn't out of the
question either. It's too bad. I've carried a torch for Mathematica for a
very long time.
I wouldn't recommend using Mma for *really* large data sets,
unless I really had too. Mathematica is quite powerful in doing symbolic
math, but your problem is likely to be of numerical nature. Mma's data
structures are highly dynamic, this gives it a lot of flexibility, but
imposes also some performance limitations.
However, if you do numerical calculations, you might experience
a performance degradation of up to 90%, especially if it "doesn't utilize
a math-co-processor", as you say.
If you're doing linear algebra, have a look at octave, which is a frontend
to LAPACK. It will be much faster than *any* symbolic math
program. However, if you're doing symbmath only, the presence of a FPU
shouldn't make any difference.Hope this helps!
-Gerhard
>I have to say, your response to Kale's question has some problems. Most of
them are in the second paragraph.
>
>To start, the Student Version of Mathematica is not what is sold to
>"educational orgainizations". In fact, universities typically own an
>enhanced versions site license for a mix of platforms. This is the
>case at the University of Illinois. The Student
>Version, as its name implies, is marketed towards the student.
>
>To claim that Wolfram Research has "intentionally crippled" the student
>version is absurd. The decision was to offer a lest costly product so
>that students, typically college ones, could afford the software. The
>lower price means lower performance. In this case, lack of coprocessor
>support.
My choice of language was intentionally confrontational, but by no means
absurd. Point in fact, Wolfram REMOVED support for FPU for the
educational version. Secondly, they inserted code into UNIX licenses so
that they could restrict the number of concurrent sessions. Both were
intentional EXTRA work which served only to artificially reduce the value
and usefulness of academic licenses. I believe my labelling of this
effort as an "intentional crippling" of their software is extremely
accurate. Suppose Wolfram had taken the approach that the student version
would use the exact software as the full version but a timing loop had
been added in order to quadruple the calculation time. Logically what is
the difference between such and approach and the one Wolfram took?