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prejudice against blonde hair in Norway?
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Harold Davis
Dec 6, 2014, 8:32:43 AM12/6/14
to
In Britain, people with blonde hair sometime encounter prejudice from
people who expect them to be stupid or simple-minded.
I am not sure how far that prejudice dates back before Marilyn Monroe..
In a lot of European fairytales and other folklore, the association of
blonde hair is not with stupidity, but with beauty.
In Britain, only a minority of people have blonde hair; and of those who
do, most are dark blonde.
But in Norway, 80% of people have blonde hair, mostly light blonde.
So I was surprised to meet a middle-aged dark-haired Norwegian woman from
Oslo who also has a prejudice against people, especially other women, who
have blonde hair.
She seems to have inherited the prejudice from her father. He was also a
dark-haired Norwegian, also from Oslo, some of whose ancestors, three or
four generations back, were from Copenhagen and Hamburg, including some
who were Jewish (although nowadays the family isn't).
She freely admits to expecting people with blonde hair to be a bit
stupid, unless she has reason not to.
Since she is Norwegian, her prejudice must be aimed at the large majority
of the population!
Some questions:
1) How common is it for dark-haired Norwegians to have this sort of
attitude?
2) Is the prevalence of blonde hair higher in the Norwegian countryside
than in Oslo? If so, is that of any relevance to the anti-blonde
prejudice? For instance, perhaps this woman sees someone with blonde hair
and wonders whether their recent ancestors - unlike her own - might be
from the countryside?
3) In Norway, is blonde more prevalent in the working class than among
the privileged?
4) Among the privileged in Norway, what sections are more likely to be
more blonde, or less blonde?
5) Do connotations connect with Norse mythology and folklore? Why did
Loki cut Sif's hair off?
6) Is there any prejudice in Norway against people with *dark* hair, or
red hair?
7) How do dark-haired Norwegians feel, being in a minority by hair
colour? Are they constantly aware of it?
Thanks for any help with this!
Harry
people who expect them to be stupid or simple-minded.
I am not sure how far that prejudice dates back before Marilyn Monroe..
In a lot of European fairytales and other folklore, the association of
blonde hair is not with stupidity, but with beauty.
In Britain, only a minority of people have blonde hair; and of those who
do, most are dark blonde.
But in Norway, 80% of people have blonde hair, mostly light blonde.
So I was surprised to meet a middle-aged dark-haired Norwegian woman from
Oslo who also has a prejudice against people, especially other women, who
have blonde hair.
She seems to have inherited the prejudice from her father. He was also a
dark-haired Norwegian, also from Oslo, some of whose ancestors, three or
four generations back, were from Copenhagen and Hamburg, including some
who were Jewish (although nowadays the family isn't).
She freely admits to expecting people with blonde hair to be a bit
stupid, unless she has reason not to.
Since she is Norwegian, her prejudice must be aimed at the large majority
of the population!
Some questions:
1) How common is it for dark-haired Norwegians to have this sort of
attitude?
2) Is the prevalence of blonde hair higher in the Norwegian countryside
than in Oslo? If so, is that of any relevance to the anti-blonde
prejudice? For instance, perhaps this woman sees someone with blonde hair
and wonders whether their recent ancestors - unlike her own - might be
from the countryside?
3) In Norway, is blonde more prevalent in the working class than among
the privileged?
4) Among the privileged in Norway, what sections are more likely to be
more blonde, or less blonde?
5) Do connotations connect with Norse mythology and folklore? Why did
Loki cut Sif's hair off?
6) Is there any prejudice in Norway against people with *dark* hair, or
red hair?
7) How do dark-haired Norwegians feel, being in a minority by hair
colour? Are they constantly aware of it?
Thanks for any help with this!
Harry
Phillip Helbig (undress to reply)
Dec 6, 2014, 2:47:54 PM12/6/14
to
In article <XnsA3FB89BB04...@213.239.209.88>, Harold Davis
> I am not sure how far that prejudice dates back before Marilyn Monroe..
I'm sure it goes back further than her time. (BTW, was she a natural
blond? What do you call a blond with her hair dyed black? Artificial
intelligence.)
> In a lot of European fairytales and other folklore, the association of
> blonde hair is not with stupidity, but with beauty.
Right.
Probably, the two are related. If one is beautiful, then that is
sufficient; one doesn't need to be smart as well.
> In Britain, only a minority of people have blonde hair; and of those who
> do, most are dark blonde.
Right.
> But in Norway, 80% of people have blonde hair, mostly light blonde.
Not sure about that, even among native Norwegians (i.e. excluding recent
immigrants and Sami (almost all of whom have dark hair)). Reference?
> So I was surprised to meet a middle-aged dark-haired Norwegian woman from
> Oslo who also has a prejudice against people, especially other women, who
> have blonde hair.
Probably an exception, not the rule. Probably nothing to do with the
traditional jokey dumb-blond stuff.
> She seems to have inherited the prejudice from her father. He was also a
> dark-haired Norwegian, also from Oslo, some of whose ancestors, three or
> four generations back, were from Copenhagen and Hamburg, including some
> who were Jewish (although nowadays the family isn't).
Probably irrelevant. Some immigrants don't like the natives, and some
pass this down to the next generation, but this seems unlikely for
Germans and Danes in Norway.
> She freely admits to expecting people with blonde hair to be a bit
> stupid, unless she has reason not to.
Sounds like just a stupid thing on her part.
> Since she is Norwegian, her prejudice must be aimed at the large majority
> of the population!
Irrelevant. Anyone who considers himself smarter than average is
smarter than most of the population (assuming a normal distribution).
> 1) How common is it for dark-haired Norwegians to have this sort of
> attitude?
Probably very rare.
> 2) Is the prevalence of blonde hair higher in the Norwegian countryside
> than in Oslo?
Yes, but mainly due to recent immigrants.
> If so, is that of any relevance to the anti-blonde
> prejudice?
No.
> For instance, perhaps this woman sees someone with blonde hair
> and wonders whether their recent ancestors - unlike her own - might be
> from the countryside?
Doubtful.
> 3) In Norway, is blonde more prevalent in the working class than among
> the privileged?
Maybe slightly, again due to recent immigrants. Among native Norwegians,
society is essentially classless.
> 4) Among the privileged in Norway, what sections are more likely to be
> more blonde, or less blonde?
No difference.
> 5) Do connotations connect with Norse mythology and folklore? Why did
> Loki cut Sif's hair off?
Maybe to some extent.
> 6) Is there any prejudice in Norway against people with *dark* hair, or
> red hair?
Red hair certainly not; it's not uncommon. Dark hair? Maybe some
people don't like recent immigrants, but that's about it.
> 7) How do dark-haired Norwegians feel, being in a minority by hair
> colour? Are they constantly aware of it?
Probably not constantly, but aware, but it is no big deal.
Where are you? Have you ever been to Norway? Where did you meet this
woman?
<th...@is.not.a.real.email.address.invalid> writes:
> In Britain, people with blonde hair sometime encounter prejudice from
> people who expect them to be stupid or simple-minded.
Dumb blond(e)s.
> In Britain, people with blonde hair sometime encounter prejudice from
> people who expect them to be stupid or simple-minded.
> I am not sure how far that prejudice dates back before Marilyn Monroe..
blond? What do you call a blond with her hair dyed black? Artificial
intelligence.)
> In a lot of European fairytales and other folklore, the association of
> blonde hair is not with stupidity, but with beauty.
Probably, the two are related. If one is beautiful, then that is
sufficient; one doesn't need to be smart as well.
> In Britain, only a minority of people have blonde hair; and of those who
> do, most are dark blonde.
> But in Norway, 80% of people have blonde hair, mostly light blonde.
immigrants and Sami (almost all of whom have dark hair)). Reference?
> So I was surprised to meet a middle-aged dark-haired Norwegian woman from
> Oslo who also has a prejudice against people, especially other women, who
> have blonde hair.
traditional jokey dumb-blond stuff.
> She seems to have inherited the prejudice from her father. He was also a
> dark-haired Norwegian, also from Oslo, some of whose ancestors, three or
> four generations back, were from Copenhagen and Hamburg, including some
> who were Jewish (although nowadays the family isn't).
pass this down to the next generation, but this seems unlikely for
Germans and Danes in Norway.
> She freely admits to expecting people with blonde hair to be a bit
> stupid, unless she has reason not to.
> Since she is Norwegian, her prejudice must be aimed at the large majority
> of the population!
smarter than most of the population (assuming a normal distribution).
> 1) How common is it for dark-haired Norwegians to have this sort of
> attitude?
> 2) Is the prevalence of blonde hair higher in the Norwegian countryside
> than in Oslo?
> If so, is that of any relevance to the anti-blonde
> prejudice?
> For instance, perhaps this woman sees someone with blonde hair
> and wonders whether their recent ancestors - unlike her own - might be
> from the countryside?
> 3) In Norway, is blonde more prevalent in the working class than among
> the privileged?
society is essentially classless.
> 4) Among the privileged in Norway, what sections are more likely to be
> more blonde, or less blonde?
> 5) Do connotations connect with Norse mythology and folklore? Why did
> Loki cut Sif's hair off?
> 6) Is there any prejudice in Norway against people with *dark* hair, or
> red hair?
people don't like recent immigrants, but that's about it.
> 7) How do dark-haired Norwegians feel, being in a minority by hair
> colour? Are they constantly aware of it?
Where are you? Have you ever been to Norway? Where did you meet this
woman?
Harold Davis
Dec 6, 2014, 3:33:36 PM12/6/14
to
hel...@astro.multiCLOTHESvax.de (Phillip Helbig (undress to reply))
wrote in news:m5vmh9$1p3h$2...@news.kjsl.com:
> In article <XnsA3FB89BB04...@213.239.209.88>, Harold Davis
> <th...@is.not.a.real.email.address.invalid> writes:
>
>> In Britain, people with blonde hair sometime encounter prejudice from
>> people who expect them to be stupid or simple-minded.
>
> Dumb blond(e)s.
Yes - that's the sort of prejudice I'm talking about, mainly against
women.
>> I am not sure how far that prejudice dates back before Marilyn
>> Monroe..
>
> I'm sure it goes back further than her time.
Why? Do you know of any instance of this kind of anti-blonde prejudice
before 1950?
>BTW, was she [Marilyn Monroe] a natural blond?
No. Her natural hair colour was reddish-brown.
Jayne Mansfield's hair was also naturally brown.
>> In a lot of European fairytales and other folklore, the association
>> of blonde hair is not with stupidity, but with beauty.
>
> Right.
>
> Probably, the two are related. If one is beautiful, then that is
> sufficient; one doesn't need to be smart as well.
Maybe there was some subtle marketing by manufacturers of hair dyes and
other hair treatments. Even just getting people talking about hair colour
would be useful.
I am not sure when sexist references to women as being "a blonde" or "a
brunette" became widespread, but it was probably in the 1950s or 1960s,
pushed by advertisers.
How old are the words "blonde" and "brunette" in English usage, to denote
hair colour, I wonder? Maybe not so old.
>> In Britain, only a minority of people have blonde hair; and of those
>> who do, most are dark blonde.
>
> Right.
>
>> But in Norway, 80% of people have blonde hair, mostly light blonde.
>
> Not sure about that, even among native Norwegians (i.e. excluding
> recent immigrants and Sami (almost all of whom have dark hair)).
> Reference?
Several here: <http://tinyurl.com/blondnorway>
But figures quoted for the proportion of people with blonde hair in
Britain are sometimes unrealistically high, and as I said most British
people with blonde hair are dark blonde.
I am not sure that most blonde-haired Norwegians are light blonde, but it
has certainly seemed that way to me when I've been in Norway.
>> So I was surprised to meet a middle-aged dark-haired Norwegian woman
>> from Oslo who also has a prejudice against people, especially other
>> women, who have blonde hair.
>
> Probably an exception, not the rule.
Probably yes. But I was wondering where her attitude came from?
> Probably nothing to do with the traditional jokey dumb-blond stuff.
That's the possibility that interests me most.
>> She seems to have inherited the prejudice from her father. He was
>> also a dark-haired Norwegian, also from Oslo, some of whose
>> ancestors, three or four generations back, were from Copenhagen and
>> Hamburg, including some who were Jewish (although nowadays the family
>> isn't).
>
> Probably irrelevant. Some immigrants don't like the natives, and some
> pass this down to the next generation, but this seems unlikely for
> Germans and Danes in Norway.
OK.
>> She freely admits to expecting people with blonde hair to be a bit
>> stupid, unless she has reason not to.
>
> Sounds like just a stupid thing on her part.
Ah but that wasn't the question! :-)
>> Since she is Norwegian, her prejudice must be aimed at the large
>> majority of the population!
>
> Irrelevant.
I don't know why you say that. Considering a prejudice against 10% of a
population as probably different in type from a prejudice against 90%
seems reasonable to me.
> Anyone who considers himself smarter than average is
> smarter than most of the population (assuming a normal distribution).
Ah but their consideration of themselves may be mistaken! (BTW if you
define your average as the median, you don't have to assume any kind of
distribution.)
>> 1) How common is it for dark-haired Norwegians to have this sort of
>> attitude?
>
> Probably very rare.
Thanks for this. I'd be interested to hear whether anyone reading this
has ever even encountered it?
>> 2) Is the prevalence of blonde hair higher in the Norwegian
>> countryside than in Oslo?
>
> Yes, but mainly due to recent immigrants.
>
>> If so, is that of any relevance to the anti-blonde
>> prejudice?
>
> No.
OK
>> For instance, perhaps this woman sees someone with blonde hair
>> and wonders whether their recent ancestors - unlike her own - might
>> be from the countryside?
>
> Doubtful.
>
>> 3) In Norway, is blonde more prevalent in the working class than
>> among the privileged?
>
> Maybe slightly, again due to recent immigrants. Among native
> Norwegians, society is essentially classless.
>
>> 4) Among the privileged in Norway, what sections are more likely to
>> be more blonde, or less blonde?
>
> No difference.
>
>> 5) Do connotations connect with Norse mythology and folklore? Why did
>> Loki cut Sif's hair off?
>
> Maybe to some extent.
>
>> 6) Is there any prejudice in Norway against people with *dark* hair,
>> or red hair?
>
> Red hair certainly not; it's not uncommon. Dark hair? Maybe some
> people don't like recent immigrants, but that's about it.
OK, thanks for this info.
I'm still fascinated by where this lady's attitude might come from.
Apparently she's had it for years and it *was*, as I thought, passed down
by her father's side of the family.
>> 7) How do dark-haired Norwegians feel, being in a minority by hair
>> colour? Are they constantly aware of it?
>
> Probably not constantly, but aware, but it is no big deal.
>
> Where are you? Have you ever been to Norway? Where did you meet this
> woman?
I'm in England. I've been to Norway several times, and haven't
encountered hair-colour prejudice in that country apart from this case.
Which is not to say I conclude this is the only case! Met her through
mutual acquaintainces.
Harry
wrote in news:m5vmh9$1p3h$2...@news.kjsl.com:
> In article <XnsA3FB89BB04...@213.239.209.88>, Harold Davis
> <th...@is.not.a.real.email.address.invalid> writes:
>
>> In Britain, people with blonde hair sometime encounter prejudice from
>> people who expect them to be stupid or simple-minded.
>
> Dumb blond(e)s.
women.
>> I am not sure how far that prejudice dates back before Marilyn
>> Monroe..
>
> I'm sure it goes back further than her time.
before 1950?
>BTW, was she [Marilyn Monroe] a natural blond?
No. Her natural hair colour was reddish-brown.
Jayne Mansfield's hair was also naturally brown.
>> In a lot of European fairytales and other folklore, the association
>> of blonde hair is not with stupidity, but with beauty.
>
> Right.
>
> Probably, the two are related. If one is beautiful, then that is
> sufficient; one doesn't need to be smart as well.
other hair treatments. Even just getting people talking about hair colour
would be useful.
I am not sure when sexist references to women as being "a blonde" or "a
brunette" became widespread, but it was probably in the 1950s or 1960s,
pushed by advertisers.
How old are the words "blonde" and "brunette" in English usage, to denote
hair colour, I wonder? Maybe not so old.
>> In Britain, only a minority of people have blonde hair; and of those
>> who do, most are dark blonde.
>
> Right.
>
>> But in Norway, 80% of people have blonde hair, mostly light blonde.
>
> Not sure about that, even among native Norwegians (i.e. excluding
> recent immigrants and Sami (almost all of whom have dark hair)).
> Reference?
But figures quoted for the proportion of people with blonde hair in
Britain are sometimes unrealistically high, and as I said most British
people with blonde hair are dark blonde.
I am not sure that most blonde-haired Norwegians are light blonde, but it
has certainly seemed that way to me when I've been in Norway.
>> So I was surprised to meet a middle-aged dark-haired Norwegian woman
>> from Oslo who also has a prejudice against people, especially other
>> women, who have blonde hair.
>
> Probably an exception, not the rule.
> Probably nothing to do with the traditional jokey dumb-blond stuff.
>> She seems to have inherited the prejudice from her father. He was
>> also a dark-haired Norwegian, also from Oslo, some of whose
>> ancestors, three or four generations back, were from Copenhagen and
>> Hamburg, including some who were Jewish (although nowadays the family
>> isn't).
>
> Probably irrelevant. Some immigrants don't like the natives, and some
> pass this down to the next generation, but this seems unlikely for
> Germans and Danes in Norway.
>> She freely admits to expecting people with blonde hair to be a bit
>> stupid, unless she has reason not to.
>
> Sounds like just a stupid thing on her part.
>> Since she is Norwegian, her prejudice must be aimed at the large
>> majority of the population!
>
> Irrelevant.
population as probably different in type from a prejudice against 90%
seems reasonable to me.
> Anyone who considers himself smarter than average is
> smarter than most of the population (assuming a normal distribution).
define your average as the median, you don't have to assume any kind of
distribution.)
>> 1) How common is it for dark-haired Norwegians to have this sort of
>> attitude?
>
> Probably very rare.
has ever even encountered it?
>> 2) Is the prevalence of blonde hair higher in the Norwegian
>> countryside than in Oslo?
>
> Yes, but mainly due to recent immigrants.
>
>> If so, is that of any relevance to the anti-blonde
>> prejudice?
>
> No.
>> For instance, perhaps this woman sees someone with blonde hair
>> and wonders whether their recent ancestors - unlike her own - might
>> be from the countryside?
>
> Doubtful.
>
>> 3) In Norway, is blonde more prevalent in the working class than
>> among the privileged?
>
> Maybe slightly, again due to recent immigrants. Among native
> Norwegians, society is essentially classless.
>
>> 4) Among the privileged in Norway, what sections are more likely to
>> be more blonde, or less blonde?
>
> No difference.
>
>> 5) Do connotations connect with Norse mythology and folklore? Why did
>> Loki cut Sif's hair off?
>
> Maybe to some extent.
>
>> 6) Is there any prejudice in Norway against people with *dark* hair,
>> or red hair?
>
> Red hair certainly not; it's not uncommon. Dark hair? Maybe some
> people don't like recent immigrants, but that's about it.
I'm still fascinated by where this lady's attitude might come from.
Apparently she's had it for years and it *was*, as I thought, passed down
by her father's side of the family.
>> 7) How do dark-haired Norwegians feel, being in a minority by hair
>> colour? Are they constantly aware of it?
>
> Probably not constantly, but aware, but it is no big deal.
>
> Where are you? Have you ever been to Norway? Where did you meet this
> woman?
encountered hair-colour prejudice in that country apart from this case.
Which is not to say I conclude this is the only case! Met her through
mutual acquaintainces.
Harry
Phillip Helbig (undress to reply)
Dec 7, 2014, 12:21:49 PM12/7/14
to
In article <XnsA3FBD114BD...@213.239.209.88>, Harold Davis
first place? Probably because hair usually gets darker with time, so a
blonde sort of "looks younger".
<th...@is.not.a.real.email.address.invalid> writes:
> > Probably, the two are related. If one is beautiful, then that is
> > sufficient; one doesn't need to be smart as well.
>
> Maybe there was some subtle marketing by manufacturers of hair dyes and
> other hair treatments. Even just getting people talking about hair colour
> would be useful.
But why is it associated with beauty, especially female beauty, in the
> > Probably, the two are related. If one is beautiful, then that is
> > sufficient; one doesn't need to be smart as well.
>
> Maybe there was some subtle marketing by manufacturers of hair dyes and
> other hair treatments. Even just getting people talking about hair colour
> would be useful.
first place? Probably because hair usually gets darker with time, so a
blonde sort of "looks younger".
Raymond Wiker
Dec 7, 2014, 2:01:45 PM12/7/14
to
hel...@astro.multiCLOTHESvax.de (Phillip Helbig (undress to reply))
writes:
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