karada or shintai
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Darren Cook
May 1, 2010, 9:41:44 PM5/1/10
to nlp-ja...@googlegroups.com
I found myself reading aloud from a Japanese book to a Japanese native
the other day, and every time I read 身体 as shintai I got corrected to
read it as karada. (This wasn't a Japanese lesson, it just seems it was
jarring for the listener.)
I got curious and searched some dictionaries (J-E and 国語)and none give
からだ as a reading of 身体, though one (明鏡国語辞典) seems to give 身
体 as alternative kanji under the からだ entry (in angle brackets).
The 身体, pronounced as shintai, entries in the dictionaries generally
have it as part of a compound word, or as 身体の.
I looked again at the context I was reading; here are some examples:
...、身体の調子を整え...
治療院でたくさんの方々の身体に触れているとわからのですが、身体の他の部
分に比べて...
...それは身体からのＳＯＳサインです。
In each case 体 (からだ) could be substituted. So I wonder if we can
have this rule:
if 体 could be used then read as karada,
else read as shintai.
I think this mechanical rule still fails (see GG5 examples [1]).
I thought this was an interesting topic, and I'd like to hear other
people's thoughts on it. For starters:
* Is shintai actually wrong, or just an alternative? Or do you disagree
and think shintai is the only correct reading?
* Do you think the author as they wrote these lines was saying "shintai"
in their head or "karada"?
* How should a dictionary express this knowledge?
* Should dictionaries be giving both 身体 as alternative kanji for から
だ, and からだ as alternative reading for 身体?
* I know this kind of alternative reading in song lyrics [2], but I
thought that was due to wanting a different number of syllables and
outside of a poetic context it was new to me. Are there a limited list
of words like this, and has anyone already compiled a list?
Darren
[1]: Under the しんたい１【身体】 entry, GG5 has:
身体に強力にきく have a powerful effect on the system.
身体の欠陥 a physical defect
身体の自由 〔憲法が保証する自由権の 1 つ〕 《the right of [to]》 physical
freedom
身体の自由を失う 〔手足がきかなくなる〕 lose [be deprived of] the use
of one's limbs; 〔不具になる〕 be disabled; be crippled; 〔泥などには
まって〕 be [get] bogged down 《in…》
It seems 体 could be substituted into each of those, but as they were
chosen as dictionary examples I assume reading them as shintai is more
natural?
[2]:
人間 pronounced as ひと
瞳(め), 宇宙(そら), 時間(とき), 地球(ほし) or even 心(ハート)
(From a post by Igor Skochinsky on edict-jmdict list, on 1st Feb 2008)
--
Darren Cook, Software Researcher/Developer
http://dcook.org/gobet/ (Shodan Go Bet - who will win?)
http://dcook.org/work/ (About me and my work)
http://dcook.org/blogs.html (My blogs and articles)
--
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the other day, and every time I read 身体 as shintai I got corrected to
read it as karada. (This wasn't a Japanese lesson, it just seems it was
jarring for the listener.)
I got curious and searched some dictionaries (J-E and 国語)and none give
からだ as a reading of 身体, though one (明鏡国語辞典) seems to give 身
体 as alternative kanji under the からだ entry (in angle brackets).
The 身体, pronounced as shintai, entries in the dictionaries generally
have it as part of a compound word, or as 身体の.
I looked again at the context I was reading; here are some examples:
...、身体の調子を整え...
治療院でたくさんの方々の身体に触れているとわからのですが、身体の他の部
分に比べて...
...それは身体からのＳＯＳサインです。
In each case 体 (からだ) could be substituted. So I wonder if we can
have this rule:
if 体 could be used then read as karada,
else read as shintai.
I think this mechanical rule still fails (see GG5 examples [1]).
I thought this was an interesting topic, and I'd like to hear other
people's thoughts on it. For starters:
* Is shintai actually wrong, or just an alternative? Or do you disagree
and think shintai is the only correct reading?
* Do you think the author as they wrote these lines was saying "shintai"
in their head or "karada"?
* How should a dictionary express this knowledge?
* Should dictionaries be giving both 身体 as alternative kanji for から
だ, and からだ as alternative reading for 身体?
* I know this kind of alternative reading in song lyrics [2], but I
thought that was due to wanting a different number of syllables and
outside of a poetic context it was new to me. Are there a limited list
of words like this, and has anyone already compiled a list?
Darren
[1]: Under the しんたい１【身体】 entry, GG5 has:
身体に強力にきく have a powerful effect on the system.
身体の欠陥 a physical defect
身体の自由 〔憲法が保証する自由権の 1 つ〕 《the right of [to]》 physical
freedom
身体の自由を失う 〔手足がきかなくなる〕 lose [be deprived of] the use
of one's limbs; 〔不具になる〕 be disabled; be crippled; 〔泥などには
まって〕 be [get] bogged down 《in…》
It seems 体 could be substituted into each of those, but as they were
chosen as dictionary examples I assume reading them as shintai is more
natural?
[2]:
人間 pronounced as ひと
瞳(め), 宇宙(そら), 時間(とき), 地球(ほし) or even 心(ハート)
(From a post by Igor Skochinsky on edict-jmdict list, on 1st Feb 2008)
--
Darren Cook, Software Researcher/Developer
http://dcook.org/gobet/ (Shodan Go Bet - who will win?)
http://dcook.org/work/ (About me and my work)
http://dcook.org/blogs.html (My blogs and articles)
--
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Jeroen Hoek
May 2, 2010, 7:12:32 AM5/2/10
to nlp-ja...@googlegroups.com
Hello Darren,
> I got curious and searched some dictionaries (J-E and 国語)and none give
> からだ as a reading of 身体
Really? WWWJDIC lists 身体 and 体 under a single entry, limiting しんたい
to
身体, but having からだ as reading for both.
The Anthy IME also lists 身体 as a valid option when you convert からだ.
The New Nelson lists 身体 as しんたい・からだ too.
> I looked again at the context I was reading; here are some examples:
> ...、身体の調子を整え...
> 治療院でたくさんの方々の身体に触れているとわからのですが、身体の他の部
> 分に比べて...
> ...それは身体からのＳＯＳサインです。
>
> In each case 体 (からだ) could be substituted. So I wonder if we can
> have this rule:
> if 体 could be used then read as karada,
> else read as shintai.
Mostly, it seems that you would use shintai in longer compounds
and in
more professional and formal contexts (e.g. medical research and
literature or government and law texts). In lyrics (usually very
informal text) you would use karada most of the time. I think
everything in between those extremes is subjective.
> I think this mechanical rule still fails (see GG5 examples [1]).
>
> I thought this was an interesting topic, and I'd like to hear other
> people's thoughts on it. For starters:
>
> * Is shintai actually wrong, or just an alternative? Or do you disagree
> and think shintai is the only correct reading?
I wouldn't read it as shintai unless the context calls for it.
karada:
身体に触れる
shintai:
身体改造 ("body modification")
> * Do you think the author as they wrote these lines was saying "shintai"
> in their head or "karada"?
Karada probably.
> * How should a dictionary express this knowledge?
By providing contextual examples for both use cases that give some
indication of when to use which reading.
> * Should dictionaries be giving both 身体 as alternative kanji for から
> だ, and からだ as alternative reading for 身体?
Of course. Dictionaries should reflect the real life usage of a
language.
> * I know this kind of alternative reading in song lyrics [2], but I
> thought that was due to wanting a different number of syllables and
> outside of a poetic context it was new to me. Are there a limited list
> of words like this, and has anyone already compiled a list?
If you find a list, do send the link to this mailing list. It
sounds
interesting.
I have found that the authors for Japanese song lyrics can be very
creative with kanji usage, or the lack thereof — opting for kana
instead where you would usually expect kanji.
> [1]: Under the しんたい１【身体】 entry, GG5 has:
> 身体に強力にきく have a powerful effect on the system.
> 身体の欠陥 a physical defect
> 身体の自由 〔憲法が保証する自由権の 1 つ〕 《the right of [to]》 physical
> freedom
> 身体の自由を失う 〔手足がきかなくなる〕 lose [be deprived of] the use
> of one's limbs; 〔不具になる〕 be disabled; be crippled; 〔泥などには
> まって〕 be [get] bogged down 《in…》
>
> It seems 体 could be substituted into each of those, but as they were
> chosen as dictionary examples I assume reading them as shintai is more
> natural?
Within the context of a law text I would definitively go for
shintai
in the case of 身体の自由 and such. In general the on-readings tend to be
more formal than the kun-readings; e.g. hesitation 躊躇 (chūcho) vs ためらう
(which you can also write as 躊躇う) and 創作 (or a more specific compound
with 創 or 作) vs 作る.
> [2]:
> 人間 pronounced as ひと
> 瞳(め), 宇宙(そら), 時間(とき), 地球(ほし) or even 心(ハート)
> (From a post by Igor Skochinsky on edict-jmdict list, on 1st Feb 2008)
Poetic, creative and artistic interpretations. Language can be
played
with, and Japanese offers a lot of possibilities to vary the nuance of
a word by using different or uncommon kanji. 宇宙 read as そら feels like
the author is trying to convey something much bigger and infinite than
a "mere" 空 would. 地球 read as ちきゅう limits us to this concrete and
tangible Earth; read it as ほし and you get the impression that the
author tries to make it feel less significant, just one of many
heavenly bodies — fragile perhaps.
Kind regards,
Jeroen Hoek
> I got curious and searched some dictionaries (J-E and 国語)and none give
> からだ as a reading of 身体
身体, but having からだ as reading for both.
The Anthy IME also lists 身体 as a valid option when you convert からだ.
The New Nelson lists 身体 as しんたい・からだ too.
> I looked again at the context I was reading; here are some examples:
> ...、身体の調子を整え...
> 治療院でたくさんの方々の身体に触れているとわからのですが、身体の他の部
> 分に比べて...
> ...それは身体からのＳＯＳサインです。
>
> In each case 体 (からだ) could be substituted. So I wonder if we can
> have this rule:
> if 体 could be used then read as karada,
> else read as shintai.
more professional and formal contexts (e.g. medical research and
literature or government and law texts). In lyrics (usually very
informal text) you would use karada most of the time. I think
everything in between those extremes is subjective.
> I think this mechanical rule still fails (see GG5 examples [1]).
>
> I thought this was an interesting topic, and I'd like to hear other
> people's thoughts on it. For starters:
>
> * Is shintai actually wrong, or just an alternative? Or do you disagree
> and think shintai is the only correct reading?
karada:
身体に触れる
shintai:
身体改造 ("body modification")
> * Do you think the author as they wrote these lines was saying "shintai"
> in their head or "karada"?
> * How should a dictionary express this knowledge?
indication of when to use which reading.
> * Should dictionaries be giving both 身体 as alternative kanji for から
> だ, and からだ as alternative reading for 身体?
> * I know this kind of alternative reading in song lyrics [2], but I
> thought that was due to wanting a different number of syllables and
> outside of a poetic context it was new to me. Are there a limited list
> of words like this, and has anyone already compiled a list?
interesting.
I have found that the authors for Japanese song lyrics can be very
creative with kanji usage, or the lack thereof — opting for kana
instead where you would usually expect kanji.
> [1]: Under the しんたい１【身体】 entry, GG5 has:
> 身体に強力にきく have a powerful effect on the system.
> 身体の欠陥 a physical defect
> 身体の自由 〔憲法が保証する自由権の 1 つ〕 《the right of [to]》 physical
> freedom
> 身体の自由を失う 〔手足がきかなくなる〕 lose [be deprived of] the use
> of one's limbs; 〔不具になる〕 be disabled; be crippled; 〔泥などには
> まって〕 be [get] bogged down 《in…》
>
> It seems 体 could be substituted into each of those, but as they were
> chosen as dictionary examples I assume reading them as shintai is more
> natural?
in the case of 身体の自由 and such. In general the on-readings tend to be
more formal than the kun-readings; e.g. hesitation 躊躇 (chūcho) vs ためらう
(which you can also write as 躊躇う) and 創作 (or a more specific compound
with 創 or 作) vs 作る.
> [2]:
> 人間 pronounced as ひと
> 瞳(め), 宇宙(そら), 時間(とき), 地球(ほし) or even 心(ハート)
> (From a post by Igor Skochinsky on edict-jmdict list, on 1st Feb 2008)
with, and Japanese offers a lot of possibilities to vary the nuance of
a word by using different or uncommon kanji. 宇宙 read as そら feels like
the author is trying to convey something much bigger and infinite than
a "mere" 空 would. 地球 read as ちきゅう limits us to this concrete and
tangible Earth; read it as ほし and you get the impression that the
author tries to make it feel less significant, just one of many
heavenly bodies — fragile perhaps.
Kind regards,
Jeroen Hoek
Darren Cook
May 2, 2010, 7:34:50 PM5/2/10
to nlp-ja...@googlegroups.com
>> I got curious and searched some dictionaries (J-E and 国語)and none give
>> からだ as a reading of 身体
>
> Really? WWWJDIC lists 身体 and 体 under a single entry, limiting しんたい to
> 身体, but having からだ as reading for both.
Ah, is that what this means:
>> からだ as a reading of 身体
>
> Really? WWWJDIC lists 身体 and 体 under a single entry, limiting しんたい to
> 身体, but having からだ as reading for both.
体(P); 身体(P); 躰; 躯 【からだ(P); しんたい(身体)(P)】
As both 体 and 身体 show that entry I assumed it was just saying they
are synonyms, and saying that only 身体 is pronounced しんたい. But I
suppose my interpretation would have looked like this?
体(P); 身体(P); 躰; 躯 【からだ(体;躰;躯)(P); しんたい(身体)(P)】
> The Anthy IME also lists 身体 as a valid option when you convert からだ.
> The New Nelson lists 身体 as しんたい・からだ too.
(For J-E I tried GG5, Shogakukan progressive V3, and wwwjdic; for J-J I
tried Koujien and Meikyou). Trying the IME never occurred to me - thanks
for the tip!
>> * How should a dictionary express this knowledge?
>
> By providing contextual examples for both use cases that give some
> indication of when to use which reading.
Perhaps a "formal reading only" flag?
体(P); 身体(P); 躰; 躯 【からだ(P); しんたい(FR of:身体)(P)】
(that is a bit ugly, but the underlying XML would be able to express it
nicely)
Thanks for your reply!
Darren
--
Darren Cook, Software Researcher/Developer
http://dcook.org/gobet/ (Shodan Go Bet - who will win?)
http://dcook.org/work/ (About me and my work)
http://dcook.org/blogs.html (My blogs and articles)
Jim Breen
May 2, 2010, 8:13:30 PM5/2/10
to nlp-ja...@googlegroups.com
2010/5/3 Darren Cook <dar...@dcook.org>:
full XML is a little clearer.
I'm not very comfortable with からだ being given as a 読み方 for
身体. I think it's more a case of からだ being sometimes written as 身体, if
you get what I mean. I think I'll add a note that からだ is a 義訓
of some kind, a bit like 啄木鳥 (けら).
> Not so easy to use mechanically (though it'd make a great test suite).
> Perhaps a "formal reading only" flag?
> 体(P); 身体(P); 躰; 躯 【からだ(P); しんたい(FR of:身体)(P)】
> (that is a bit ugly, but the underlying XML would be able to express it
> nicely)
AFAIK 身体 usually is read しんたい. It's more a case that some people
write からだ as 身体.
Cheers
Jim
--
Jim Breen
Adjunct Snr Research Fellow, Clayton School of IT, Monash University
Treasurer: Hawthorn Rowing Club, Japanese Studies Centre
Graduate student: Language Technology Group, University of Melbourne
>>> I got curious and searched some dictionaries (J-E and 国語)and none give
>>> からだ as a reading of 身体
>>
>> Really? WWWJDIC lists 身体 and 体 under a single entry, limiting しんたい to
>> 身体, but having からだ as reading for both.
>
> Ah, is that what this means:
> 体(P); 身体(P); 躰; 躯 【からだ(P); しんたい(身体)(P)】
>
> As both 体 and 身体 show that entry I assumed it was just saying they
> are synonyms, and saying that only 身体 is pronounced しんたい. But I
> suppose my interpretation would have looked like this?
> 体(P); 身体(P); 躰; 躯 【からだ(体;躰;躯)(P); しんたい(身体)(P)】
Yes. That extended-edict short-hand takes a bit of interpretation. The
>>> からだ as a reading of 身体
>>
>> Really? WWWJDIC lists 身体 and 体 under a single entry, limiting しんたい to
>> 身体, but having からだ as reading for both.
>
> Ah, is that what this means:
> 体(P); 身体(P); 躰; 躯 【からだ(P); しんたい(身体)(P)】
>
> As both 体 and 身体 show that entry I assumed it was just saying they
> are synonyms, and saying that only 身体 is pronounced しんたい. But I
> suppose my interpretation would have looked like this?
> 体(P); 身体(P); 躰; 躯 【からだ(体;躰;躯)(P); しんたい(身体)(P)】
full XML is a little clearer.
I'm not very comfortable with からだ being given as a 読み方 for
身体. I think it's more a case of からだ being sometimes written as 身体, if
you get what I mean. I think I'll add a note that からだ is a 義訓
of some kind, a bit like 啄木鳥 (けら).
> Not so easy to use mechanically (though it'd make a great test suite).
> Perhaps a "formal reading only" flag?
> 体(P); 身体(P); 躰; 躯 【からだ(P); しんたい(FR of:身体)(P)】
> (that is a bit ugly, but the underlying XML would be able to express it
> nicely)
write からだ as 身体.
Cheers
Jim
--
Jim Breen
Adjunct Snr Research Fellow, Clayton School of IT, Monash University
Treasurer: Hawthorn Rowing Club, Japanese Studies Centre
Graduate student: Language Technology Group, University of Melbourne
Darren Cook
May 2, 2010, 8:25:01 PM5/2/10
to nlp-ja...@googlegroups.com
> I'm not very comfortable with からだ being given as a 読み方 for 身体. I
> think it's more a case of からだ being sometimes written as 身体, if you
> get what I mean.
Not really :-) That sounds like you are saying the 4 of 3+1 and 5-1 are
> think it's more a case of からだ being sometimes written as 身体, if you
> get what I mean.
different types of 4 because you start from a different place.
Do you think my author should have used 体 instead of 身体 in the
sentences I gave (included again below).
Darren
...、身体の調子を整え...
治療院でたくさんの方々の身体に触れているとわからのですが、身体の他の部
分に比べて...
...それは身体からのＳＯＳサインです。
--
Darren Cook, Software Researcher/Developer
http://dcook.org/gobet/ (Shodan Go Bet - who will win?)
http://dcook.org/work/ (About me and my work)
http://dcook.org/blogs.html (My blogs and articles)
Darren Cook, Software Researcher/Developer
http://dcook.org/gobet/ (Shodan Go Bet - who will win?)
http://dcook.org/work/ (About me and my work)
http://dcook.org/blogs.html (My blogs and articles)
Jim Breen
May 2, 2010, 9:01:36 PM5/2/10
to nlp-ja...@googlegroups.com
2010/5/3 Darren Cook <dar...@dcook.org>:
written forms is not always fully commutative.
> Do you think my author should have used 体 instead of 身体 in the
> sentences I gave (included again below).
something that Japanese lexicographers find difficult. 広辞苑 and
the several Kenkyushas avoid it completely. The people at Sanseido
doing the 大辞林 are nudging in that direction. The headword in the
大辞林 第二版 and スーパー大辞林 3.0 is instructive:
(See http://dictionary.goo.ne.jp/leaf/jn/38792/m0u/%E3%81%8B%E3%82%89%E3%81%A0/)
からだ 【体/▼躯/〈身体〉】
I don't have a copy of the frontmatter to explain what that <> means
around the 身体, but I suspect it means sometimes/irregular.
If you look up 身体 in 大辞林, all you get is:
しん たい [1] 【 身体 】
No hint of からだ, which is sort-of the point I am making.
Cheers
Jim
--
Jim Breen
Adjunct Snr Research Fellow, Clayton School of IT, Monash University
Treasurer: Hawthorn Rowing Club, Japanese Studies Centre
Graduate student: Language Technology Group, University of Melbourne
>> I'm not very comfortable with からだ being given as a 読み方 for 身体. I
>> think it's more a case of からだ being sometimes written as 身体, if you
>> get what I mean.
>
> Not really :-) That sounds like you are saying the 4 of 3+1 and 5-1 are
> different types of 4 because you start from a different place.
Well, I'm saying that the relationship between the spoken and
>> think it's more a case of からだ being sometimes written as 身体, if you
>> get what I mean.
>
> Not really :-) That sounds like you are saying the 4 of 3+1 and 5-1 are
> different types of 4 because you start from a different place.
written forms is not always fully commutative.
> Do you think my author should have used 体 instead of 身体 in the
> sentences I gave (included again below).
> ...、身体の調子を整え...
> 治療院でたくさんの方々の身体に触れているとわからのですが、身体の他の部
> 分に比べて...
> ...それは身体からのＳＯＳサインです。
I think they could have. The association of からだ and 身体 is obviously
> 治療院でたくさんの方々の身体に触れているとわからのですが、身体の他の部
> 分に比べて...
> ...それは身体からのＳＯＳサインです。
something that Japanese lexicographers find difficult. 広辞苑 and
the several Kenkyushas avoid it completely. The people at Sanseido
doing the 大辞林 are nudging in that direction. The headword in the
大辞林 第二版 and スーパー大辞林 3.0 is instructive:
(See http://dictionary.goo.ne.jp/leaf/jn/38792/m0u/%E3%81%8B%E3%82%89%E3%81%A0/)
からだ 【体/▼躯/〈身体〉】
I don't have a copy of the frontmatter to explain what that <> means
around the 身体, but I suspect it means sometimes/irregular.
If you look up 身体 in 大辞林, all you get is:
しん たい [1] 【 身体 】
No hint of からだ, which is sort-of the point I am making.
Cheers
Jim
--
Jim Breen
Adjunct Snr Research Fellow, Clayton School of IT, Monash University
Treasurer: Hawthorn Rowing Club, Japanese Studies Centre
Graduate student: Language Technology Group, University of Melbourne
Darren Cook
May 2, 2010, 9:47:04 PM5/2/10
to nlp-ja...@googlegroups.com
> The association of からだ and 身体 is obviously
> something that Japanese lexicographers find difficult. 広辞苑 and
> the several Kenkyushas avoid it completely. The people at Sanseido
> doing the 大辞林 are nudging in that direction. The headword in the
> 大辞林 第二版 and スーパー大辞林 3.0 is instructive:
> (See http://dictionary.goo.ne.jp/leaf/jn/38792/m0u/%E3%81%8B%E3%82%89%E3%81%A0/)
>
> からだ 【体/▼躯/〈身体〉】
>
> I don't have a copy of the frontmatter to explain what that <> means
> around the 身体, but I suspect it means sometimes/irregular.
The meikyo entry was identical, and I've typed in the front matter entry
> something that Japanese lexicographers find difficult. 広辞苑 and
> the several Kenkyushas avoid it completely. The people at Sanseido
> doing the 大辞林 are nudging in that direction. The headword in the
> 大辞林 第二版 and スーパー大辞林 3.0 is instructive:
> (See http://dictionary.goo.ne.jp/leaf/jn/38792/m0u/%E3%81%8B%E3%82%89%E3%81%A0/)
>
> からだ 【体/▼躯/〈身体〉】
>
> I don't have a copy of the frontmatter to explain what that <> means
> around the 身体, but I suspect it means sometimes/irregular.
below; a reading not officially in joyo kanji.
Darren
--------------------
標準的と思われる表記形を見出しの後の【】に示す。【】内の漢字に次のような
記号を付ける。
（ア）常用漢字表にない漢字（表外字）は、文字の左に「▼」を付ける。常用漢
字表にある漢字のうち、常用漢字表で認められていない音訓（表外音訓）で用い
るものには、文字の左に「▽」を付ける。
（イ）二字以上からなる漢字の列の意味をくみ取って、まとめて訓にして読む、
いわゆる熟語訓の表記形は、全体を〈〉で囲んで示す。〈〉内の文字について
は、表記音訓の「▽」の表示は省略する。
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