Best Choice for a Real Dutch Bike?
Elisa Francesca Roselli
cannot write in Dutch. My question concerns Dutch bikes in particular
and at rec.bicycles.misc they suggested people here might be able to
inform me.
I live in the hilly suburbs south of Paris in France and am a fat lady
who has learned to cycle only in the past year, at age 47. I learned on
an inexpensive bike from a supermarket, but now that I am biking more I
am looking for something more definitive.
I have a very clear idea of what I want, but after many weeks of
research it turns out that the style of bike that would suit me is not
commonly sold in France:
- Hub-shifter that can be shifted when the bike is still. Preferably a
14-gear Rohloff, but a 7 or 8 gear Shimano Nexus would do. I have to
ride in stop-start traffic and on rather hilly terrain (unlike that of
the Netherlands). I have trouble re-starting the bike at the bottom of a
hill. I do need a good range of gears as some of ths hills are quite
steep. I'm no enthusiast of speed, but I would like the lowest gear to
be really low to handle the elevations.
- Very reliable and strong brakes. I need to be able to get down snaking
hills of over 1 km at no more than 10 kph. The brakes must be able to
hold steady and not fail over that distance. I'm told a roller-brake in
the back and a V-brake in the front would be best for this application.
I've also been told that hydraulic disk brakes, although very expensive,
are the best for fine-tuned control. Conversely, I have read in some
places that brakes on the hub overheat on long, steep descents. Yet
others maintain that brakes on the wheel-rim can blow the tires on long,
steep descents.
- Woman specific geometry, with a very low step-through, as my balance
is poor and I cannot raise my leg very high. Upright posture and a
raisable handlebar.
- Hub dynamo lights - wheel dynanmo adds too much drag.
- Full protection, including fenders, a chain guard and skirt guards: I
only ever ride in a skirt and am fed up with axle-grease stains and
having my hems torn in the gears.
- Basket and rack for shopping
- Light weight, because this bike has to be carried up and down stairs
and onto trains
- Comprehensive anti-theft device. Although it will live in a garage,
this bike may have to spend some time on supermarket parking lots.
- No suspension. I weigh over 100kgs and I'm told this is too much for
standard suspension systems.
- I don't like the matte black-and-gold paintwork that seems to go with
some "traditional" Dutch bikes. I think it looks like a hearse! I like
bright colours and metallics. I also appreciate sleek, elegant, hi-tech
design - I may be an old lady but that does not mean I want to look like
one!
A specialized dealer has pointed me in the direction of four Dutch
makers: Union, Sparta, Gazelle and Batavus (www.union.nl, www.sparta.nl,
www.gazelle.nl, www.batavus.nl). He told me that these "true" Dutch
bikes are much more well-made, aesthetic and durable than "Dutch-style"
bikes by international makes like Giant, for the same price.
I have been interested in 3 models by Union, the Oase, the Sphinx and
the Antilope-E, in one by Gazelle, the Accent, and in two by Sparta,
Ithaka and Helios.
The Sparta models are much the lightest in my comparison, at under 19
kg. They also appear to be the best-looking, although it's not always
easy to tell from the pictures. Some of the Union models strike me as
prohibitively heavy, nearly 22 kgs.
Among my various questions and musings: what are the respective
reputations of these producers in their own country? The bikes are
expensive. Is the price justified by the quality? Are there any that are
best known for quality or are there some where there is a "name" value
that puts up the price rather emptily? (I noticed for example, that
Cannondale bikes are expensive just _because_ they are Cannondales.) I
don't have the kind of vanity that wants to pay for a mere name, but I'm
ready to pay for a really beautiful, luxurious, comfortable bike.
I also want to know why the models I am looking at weigh so much? I am
mystified by the fact that double-tubes seem to be lighter than single
tubes (mono), and that 8-speeds are lighter than 7-speeds. Since none of
the bikes I have seen have a Rohloff shifter, I have thought that I
might buy for the frame and eventually have the Rohloff added. But in
that case I really do want a much lighter product than I am seeing, not
more than around 15kg, as the Rohloff is said to be very heavy just on
its own.
Is it possible, on a Nexus shifter, to modify the size of the smallest
gear? This might make the Roholff uneccessary.
I thank the newsgroup members for bearing with me and look forward to
any advice and opinions you may wish to offer.
Elisa Francesca Roselli
Ile de France
Jasper Janssen
<Elisa.Franc...@quadratec-software.com> wrote:
Hi, fancy meeting you here, as well!
>A specialized dealer has pointed me in the direction of four Dutch
>makers: Union, Sparta, Gazelle and Batavus (www.union.nl, www.sparta.nl,
>www.gazelle.nl, www.batavus.nl). He told me that these "true" Dutch
>bikes are much more well-made, aesthetic and durable than "Dutch-style"
>bikes by international makes like Giant, for the same price.
Sparta, Gazelle & Batavus are much more well-known than Union for actually
making bikes, although Union parts are fairly commonly found. I think
Union might be a bit more of a budget minded brand, though that doesn't
necessarily imply bad or non-sturdy.
>I have been interested in 3 models by Union, the Oase, the Sphinx and
>the Antilope-E, in one by Gazelle, the Accent, and in two by Sparta,
>Ithaka and Helios.
Okay, I'm looking at a picture of the Gazelle Accent, and I'm seeing.. big
aluminum cranks, welded aluminium frame, suspension seatpost (If it's a
good one, you can adjust it so it still has travel when carrying big
loads, if not, it's cheap to replace with a rigid one), and that
newfangled way of attaching the bars of which I have no clue if it's good
or not. Looks like a solid enough bike, but towards the expensive range of
dutch-style bikes (which, of course, you naturally get when you're looking
towards the 7+ speed hubs). Don't see a hub dynamo mentioned anywhere. A
really good bottle dynamo doesn't give all that much more drag than a hub
dynamo, though.
>The Sparta models are much the lightest in my comparison, at under 19
>kg. They also appear to be the best-looking, although it's not always
>easy to tell from the pictures. Some of the Union models strike me as
>prohibitively heavy, nearly 22 kgs.
Well, there's not *that* much difference. Even as a percentage of bike
weight, it's only an extra 15%, but that's not a particularly relevant
figure unless you plan on lifting the bike clear off the ground regularly.
When you're riding it, you're pushing both the bike *and* yourself up
those hills, and as you say you weigh over 100, that means the heavier
bike adds only 2-3 % to the total, which is hard to notice.
>
>Among my various questions and musings: what are the respective
>reputations of these producers in their own country? The bikes are
>expensive. Is the price justified by the quality? Are there any that are
>best known for quality or are there some where there is a "name" value
>that puts up the price rather emptily? (I noticed for example, that
>Cannondale bikes are expensive just _because_ they are Cannondales.) I
>don't have the kind of vanity that wants to pay for a mere name, but I'm
>ready to pay for a really beautiful, luxurious, comfortable bike.
Sparta, Gazelle, and Batavus are in my view all three good, solid,
dependable names, none of which do all that much in marketing to bloat the
price of their bikes.
>I also want to know why the models I am looking at weigh so much? I am
>mystified by the fact that double-tubes seem to be lighter than single
>tubes (mono), and that 8-speeds are lighter than 7-speeds. Since none of
The monotubes will probably be massively-oversized aluminum frames with
just one *big* tube as opposed to two smaller ones. The doubletubes can be
either aluminium or traditional, old-fashioned, bit heavier for the
strength, gas-pipe-steel frames. 8 speeds are probably lighter than 7s
because they're more expensive and the components themselves are thus
lighter and they go on lighter, more expensive frames and other stuff, or
it might be that you're looking at a hub geared bike and a derailer side
by side, which makes a bit of difference. Or there are other things that
can change: aluminium versus steel rims, for example.
>the bikes I have seen have a Rohloff shifter, I have thought that I
>might buy for the frame and eventually have the Rohloff added. But in
>that case I really do want a much lighter product than I am seeing, not
>more than around 15kg, as the Rohloff is said to be very heavy just on
>its own.
Very heavy, yes, if you hold it in your hand, but according to
http://www.groundzero.co.nz/rohloff.htm it's only 1.7 kilos -- no need to
strip 4 kilos off first. An oldfashioned 3 speed Sturmey Archer, examples
of which I've been riding for 12 years and six or so bikes, is probably
nearly if not as heavy. The Rohloff *is* exceedingly expensive, it runs
from 700-900 euros as a bare hub+shifter, add a good 100 or so to build
even a basic wheel around it.
>Is it possible, on a Nexus shifter, to modify the size of the smallest
>gear? This might make the Roholff uneccessary.
Yes, with any modern hub gear made by Sturmey Archer (where modern means
after 1930), or Shimano, or Sachs/SRAM ever, you can put on a standard
bigger rear sprocket very easily (leading to a lower gear). Most hubgeared
bikes are 44/15 or 46/15 stock, if I remember correctly, but you can get
right up to 20 teeth at least in rear if you want it, which is 33% lower
gear than 15. The Rohloff uses a different kind of rear sprocket, only
available in 15/16/17, but you can also tune how big a chainring you put
in front. That last is relatively speaking more expensive, though not
hugely so.
Rohloffs don't alllow roller/drum brakes, by the way, which is what
usually comes on a dutch bike with shimano or other hub gears, so you'd
need to convert that as well.
On a more general note: I weigh well over 100 kg, and while I'm obviously
a big load on any bike, especially if I really start pedalling (things
like breaking pedal axles and cranks have been observed, and in general
things coming loose and breaking at a rate consistent with a bike that
gets ridden hard and put away wet), I've never yet managed to break an
oldfashioned dutch lugged steel frame. I've also never owned any modern
ones, though, so take that as you will.
Also: If you're going to put in a hub dynamo and especially a Rohloff
anyway, you might want to look for the cheaper end of the market to put
'em in. Or to put it otherwise: if you're going to replace your rear wheel
with a 1000 euro one, it might as well be a cheap 3 speed one or even a
no-gear, backpedal brake one rather than an expensive 7-speed, rollerbrake
shimano.
Also again: Another option is to have a bike custom made for you. There
are at least two shops here in Utrecht that will custom assemble a frame
and assorted bits and pieces into a bike.
Also three: You could also look at the second hand stuff. 100 euros will
buy you a pretty decent 10-20 year old women's model bike with a Sturmey
3speed & drum brakes, which you can use as a basis for customisation with,
for example, a dynamo hub and a V-brake or hydraulic disc in front plus a
Rohloff and V-brake in back. If it's still in ridable condition after
10-20 years of abuse, chances are it will be so for a while more.
Anyway, I realise I'm getting way longwinded and maybe a bit confusing by
now, so please don't hesitate to think out loud and i'll chime in again.
Jasper
Elisa Francesca Roselli
Jasper Janssen wrote:
> Hi, fancy meeting you here, as well!
Many thanks for such a kind and thorough reply. Do I know you from
rec.bicycles.misc or is it from somewhere more exotic?
> Okay, I'm looking at a picture of the Gazelle Accent,...Don't see a hub
> dynamo mentioned anywhere. A
> really good bottle dynamo doesn't give all that much more drag than a hub
> dynamo, though.
For the 8-speed it says:
8 Versnellingen met rollerbrakes, verende zadelpen en Auto-L naafdynamo (TK8)
€ 969
I don't speak Dutch, but I have been creatively interpreting "naafdynamo" as a
hub dynamo. Have I been wildly off all along? If so, please correct me before
it goes any further.
> Well, there's not *that* much difference. Even as a percentage of bike
> weight, it's only an extra 15%, but that's not a particularly relevant
> figure unless you plan on lifting the bike clear off the ground regularly.
There is a lot of lifting, unfortunately, and it's one of the things that
poses a problem with my current bike. That thing has to get up and down a
staircase fully loaded just to go to the supermarket. Also there's the metro
and RER. The transport service keeps saying it wants to make all stations bike
friendly but I wish they'd pull the other one! The station nearest me has
stair access only and the huge station of Massy Palaiseau has the most
horrific overpass you ever saw - steep, dangerous, vertiginously open on all
sides and swaying in the wind. There's no handicap access either, which I find
outrageous.
> Sparta, Gazelle & Batavus are much more well-known than Union for actually
> making bikes
> Sparta, Gazelle, and Batavus are in my view all three good, solid,
> dependable names, none of which do all that much in marketing to bloat the
> price of their bikes.
>
My dealer seemed to be pushing Union more than the others, but then perhaps he
had something going with them. I have to say I do find their models among the
most aesthetic, and I like the color options on the Antilope-E.
> Yes, with any modern hub gear made by Sturmey Archer (where modern means
> after 1930), or Shimano, or Sachs/SRAM ever, you can put on a standard
> bigger rear sprocket very easily (leading to a lower gear).
Of course, how silly I am. It is the biggest, not the smallest circle whcih
produces the lowest gear. I'm glad to hear it is so easily changed.
> Also three: You could also look at the second hand stuff. 100 euros will
> buy you a pretty decent 10-20 year old women's model bike with a Sturmey
> 3speed & drum brakes, which you can use as a basis for customisation with,
> for example, a dynamo hub and a V-brake or hydraulic disc in front plus a
> Rohloff and V-brake in back. If it's still in ridable condition after
> 10-20 years of abuse, chances are it will be so for a while more.
True, but it is beginning to sound as if I can dispense with the Rohloff, and
in any case I would want something satisfactory right away. I would not know
how to buy a second hand bike here in France. You don't have the institution
of the "garage sale" because taxes make it illegal. If I start looking in
newspapers for people selling second hand bikes, that means I have to find
time in the day (I get out of work at 7:30) to traipse around all over town to
look at them and make appointments with strangers. That really sounds like
more trouble than it's worth, escpecially since I'm looking for something so
specific and I really want the fit and quality to be excellent. Otherwise I
could just start fitting Rohloffs and drum brakes on my current supermarket
bike. The people at rec.bicycles.misc all insist that the move from cheap bike
to nice bike involves a huge shift in comfort and efficiency, but I have never
been able to quantify why or how this is so, since I have only ever known two
bikes, my own Myrtille and another that I rented in Cambridge last summer.
> Also again: Another option is to have a bike custom made for you. There
> are at least two shops here in Utrecht that will custom assemble a frame
> and assorted bits and pieces into a bike.
>
True, I have thought of that. Perhaps I should visit Utrecht. It's an
attractive city? But I have yet to find a dealer that would custom-assemble in
France and would find parts so strange as those that I request. There was one
at the Paris fair but he was only into racing and road type bikes for
athletes. He laughed at me when I said I wanted a customized city-granny style
bike with hub gears!
Someday, perhaps I will have a stable full of different bikes, since there
does not seem to be a single one which can satisfy me completely. I suppose
everyone has crazy things they spend their money on, so bicycle-flesh can be
mine.
EFR
TonV
Below some url's
I think you can get a lot information there.
Ton
http://www.koga.nl/uk/
http://www.realitycycles.co.uk/
http://www.giant-bicycles.com/uk/page.asp
http://www.batavus.com (german)
http://www.sparta.nl/de/index_de.html (german)
Elisa Francesca Roselli
specs in Dutch, it doesn't scare me, and it's more coherent than German.
EFR
TonV <n...@spam.plz> a écrit dans le message : boidmo$4c4$1...@news.hccnet.nl...
olaf
> But I find it quite fun to read specs in Dutch, it doesn't scare me, and
> it's more coherent than German.
that's an interesting statement. Anyway, when in doubt about your
translations, just ask. A 'naaf dynamo' is a hub dynamo indeed. About the
rim brakes and exploding rims: it might happen but I don't think it's
really a point of considering. It happens on mountain-bikes where the durt
wears the rim until it is too thin. It might happen on extreme (alpine)
descents when breaking a lot of weight. The area you live is about as
hilly as the Fontainebleau area? If you are concerned about really good
brakes you might choose brakes that are used on tandems used in mountian
area's. I think there are some experts on the topic in this group.
And answering another still open question, yes, Utrecht is nice ;-)
bye, olaf
Lou Holtman
"olaf" <olaf...@wanadoo.nlQQQ> wrote in message
news:pan.2003.11.09.1...@wanadoo.nlQQQ...
> On Sun, 09 Nov 2003 13:26:46 +0100, Elisa Francesca Roselli wrote:
>
> > But I find it quite fun to read specs in Dutch, it doesn't scare me, and
> > it's more coherent than German.
>
> that's an interesting statement. Anyway, when in doubt about your
> translations, just ask. A 'naaf dynamo' is a hub dynamo indeed. About the
> rim brakes and exploding rims: it might happen but I don't think it's
> really a point of considering. It happens on mountain-bikes where the durt
> wears the rim until it is too thin. It might happen on extreme (alpine)
> descents when breaking a lot of weight.
And if that is the case you really don't want rollerbrakes.
Lou
ReindeR Rustema
Perhaps it is the best to make a little 3 day trip to Holland and visit
a careful selection of bike shops. It is not difficult to find shops
with a huge selection of all kinds of bikes and you can all try them one
by one if it is not in a big city, where the shopowner still trusts the
clients.
In Paris there is one bike shop which is very good, with friendly and
knowledgeable people (especially the owner himself).
http://www.bicloune.fr But they never have such a wide choice in
bicycles to choose from and as even any small town here. And a good test
drive is no option either for them.
The people in this group can perhaps help you with finding a good shop
in the Netherlands that has the largest possible assortment of bikes in
the shop. Ideally the shop should also have e-mail so you can make an
appointment. Since you will use your bike on a hilly terrain in the
Parisian suburbs, you might want to test drive also in such a terrain.
You can only find that in the south (Maastricht) and east (Nijmegen).
Bicycling there is much less popular than up north though, so it might
be more difficult to make a shortlist with good shops.
In the winter season it is very quiet in most bike shops, the best time
to do comparison shopping. And have everything explained in detail and
compare their salestalk with other sellers.
About esthetics... My experience is that in France esthetics comes hand
in hand with function, if not before function. Overhere esthetics is a
bonus after function or is an outcome of a good functional design. The
bicycle industry overhere is also quite conservative ("modern bikes,
after 1930") when it comes to streetbikes, in sharp contrast with the
VTT and racing bikes from the international bike industry.
--
ReindeR
Alf redo
It's quite a story to read in the first place....
"Elisa Francesca Roselli" asked:
>
> fat lady
> age 47
> looking for something more definitive.
>
> - Hub-shifter that can be shifted when the bike is still. Preferably a
> 14-gear Rohloff,
Very expensive.
> but a 7 or 8 gear Shimano Nexus would do.
> - Very reliable and strong brakes. I need to be able to get down snaking
> hills of over 1 km at no more than 10 kph. The brakes must be able to
> hold steady and not fail over that distance. I'm told a roller-brake in
> the back and a V-brake in the front would be best for this application.
Then you should not use the roller brake contunuously.
I think 2 V-brakes would be a better solution.
> I've also been told that hydraulic disk brakes, although very expensive,
> are the best for fine-tuned control. Conversely, I have read in some
> places that brakes on the hub overheat on long, steep descents.
> Yet
> others maintain that brakes on the wheel-rim can blow the tires on long,
> steep descents.
hubs tend to heat up indeed, but long here means over 100 m difference in
height.
> - Hub dynamo lights - wheel dynanmo adds too much drag.
$$$ again
> - Full protection, including fenders, a chain guard and skirt guards: I
> only ever ride in a skirt and am fed up with axle-grease stains and
> having my hems torn in the gears.
> - Basket
That's very undutch! These things are for the japanese...
> - Light weight, because this bike has to be carried up and down stairs
> and onto trains
There you might have a problem with all other desires.
> - Comprehensive anti-theft device. Although it will live in a garage,
> this bike may have to spend some time on supermarket parking lots.
> A specialized dealer has pointed me in the direction of four Dutch
> makers: Union, Sparta, Gazelle and Batavus (www.union.nl, www.sparta.nl,
> www.gazelle.nl, www.batavus.nl). He told me that these "true" Dutch
> bikes are much more well-made, aesthetic and durable than "Dutch-style"
> bikes by international makes like Giant, for the same price.
Yes, it might be so.
> Among my various questions and musings: what are the respective
> reputations of these producers in their own country?
Quite well.
> The bikes are
> expensive. Is the price justified by the quality?
Mostly yes.
> Are there any that are
> best known for quality or are there some where there is a "name" value
> that puts up the price rather emptily?
Hardly.
> (I noticed for example, that
> Cannondale bikes are expensive just _because_ they are Cannondales.)
In thius case, it might..
> I also want to know why the models I am looking at weigh so much?
Fenders, chain guard, mud guard, locks, panniers (some made of solid steel
rods..), durable tyres etc.
> I am
> mystified by the fact that double-tubes seem to be lighter than single
> tubes (mono), and that 8-speeds are lighter than 7-speeds. Since none of
> the bikes I have seen have a Rohloff shifter, I have thought that I
> might buy for the frame and eventually have the Rohloff added.
That's technically very complicated. I would not recommend to have it done.
> But in
> that case I really do want a much lighter product than I am seeing, not
> more than around 15kg,
Including all your wishes this is hardly possible.
> Is it possible, on a Nexus shifter, to modify the size of the smallest
> gear?
I think so, it depends though on the willingness and the skills of the
shopowner.
Greetings, Alfredo
Mark van Gorkom
expensive but high quality, and they'll build a bike to order
(including Rohloff, Son, full chainguard etc.)
http://www.utopia-fahrrad.de/
There's a bike-configurator on their website, where you can
"customize" your bike and see how much it will cost and weigh.
With all the extra's you mentioned, you'l be looking at 2.600 Euros
and 20.5 kg ! Including Rohloff, Son and... a basket.
The Rohloff is worth its price BTW: I can no longer imagine life
without it :-)
A Rohloff can be had with several sizes of chainwheel, Nexus too, if I
read their site correctly.
For brakes, I'd strongly recommend Magura hydraulic rim brakes:
reliable, powerful, virtually maintenance free.
If you're worried about wearing out the rims, ceramic coated rims
(expensive) or stainless steel rims (heavy) will help, but going down
long hills at a constant slow speed is hard on every brake!
Mark van Gorkom.
M-Gineering import & framebouw
>
> You might also look at Utopia bikes: German, not Dutch, and even more
> expensive but high quality, and they'll build a bike to order
> (including Rohloff, Son, full chainguard etc.)
> http://www.utopia-fahrrad.de/
Aren't the frames made by Van Raam?
> There's a bike-configurator on their website, where you can
> "customize" your bike and see how much it will cost and weigh.
> With all the extra's you mentioned, you'l be looking at 2.600 Euros
> and 20.5 kg ! Including Rohloff, Son and... a basket.
>
> The Rohloff is worth its price BTW: I can no longer imagine life
> without it :-)
> A Rohloff can be had with several sizes of chainwheel, Nexus too, if I
> read their site correctly.
>
> For brakes, I'd strongly recommend Magura hydraulic rim brakes:
> reliable, powerful, virtually maintenance free.
> If you're worried about wearing out the rims, ceramic coated rims
> (expensive) or stainless steel rims (heavy) will help, but going down
> long hills at a constant slow speed is hard on every brake!
With a decent bike, you'll probably speed up quite a bit ;)
The only reliable dragbrake is the Arai bandbrake as fitted to tandems,
but it won't adapt to a hubgear
A bit lighter than Utopia but without the fully enclosed chaincase:
www.wanderer-fahrraeder.de
--
Marten