Hi David,
I think there are two aspects to consider
- phantom only, easy to collect and share
- human/animal data collected by different studies in parallel
happy to adapt what we plan to do as to have multi-site data ..
cyril
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-- Dr Cyril Pernet, PhD, OHBM fellow, SSI fellow Neurobiology Research Unit, Building 8057, Blegdamsvej 9 Copenhagen University Hospital, Rigshospitalet DK-2100 Copenhagen, Denmark wamc...@gmail.com https://cpernet.github.io/ https://orcid.org/0000-0003-4010-4632
Iām glad to say weāll be joining this as well. We discussed parts of this during todayās talks, including whether we should consider using one of the newest/latest phantoms presented today, and which metrics/pipelines to apply. Perhaps we can start a google doc and/or have a short meeting to finalize the details before we get started?
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Thanks Peter and Yarik ā this will make for an interesting talk and discussion. Helmut and Lily were willing to give a talk, I put it on hold to try group with very related talks from Dr. Joshua Kupermanās of ABCD as well as potentially another from Dr. Gary Glover. Perhaps we should wait no longer and do it in the next few weeks when it works for all those interested?
Ā
From:
ni...@googlegroups.com <ni...@googlegroups.com> on behalf of Yaroslav Halchenko <yarik...@gmail.com>
Date: Friday, September 3, 2021 at 3:22 PM
To: LR Mujica-Parodi <liliann...@stonybrook.edu>, Helmut Strey <helmut...@stonybrook.edu>
Cc: ni...@googlegroups.com <ni...@googlegroups.com>, Bandettini, Peter (NIH/NIMH) [E] <band...@mail.nih.gov>
Subject: Re: [niQC] Additional QC Site, UMass...
Dear Lily and Helmut,
We have made a full "circle" and got back again to your interesting
phantom. (I am following up here on a "public" thread within niQC
group I have mentioned to your before).
Please let us know if you need any assistance with depositing the data
OpenNeuro.Ā
But even more interesting (to me) is either you had any additional
multiband acquisitions. If I glanced through your paper "correctly" --
that data was not multiband; and that-is-partially-why I was
reaching to see the data's sidecar files to possibly find more details
on acquisitions.
Cheers,
On Fri, 03 Sep 2021, Bandettini, Peter (NIH/NIMH) [E] wrote:
>Ā Ā Ā Thanks Yaroslav, yes this might be interesting to asses how multi-band
>Ā Ā Ā varies over time with something that varies dynamically ā assuming that
>Ā Ā Ā the change in the phantom somehow might have an influence on the recon for
>Ā Ā Ā each image.
>Ā Ā Ā If you contact Lili directly, she could direct you do the person who has
>Ā Ā Ā been accumulating data. Hereās a relevant paper
>Ā Ā Ā was leading this study and collecting data.
>Ā Ā Ā Peter
>Ā Ā Ā From: Yaroslav Halchenko <yarik...@gmail.com>
>Ā Ā Ā Date: Friday, September 3, 2021 at 12:08 PM
>Ā Ā Ā To: Bandettini, Peter (NIH/NIMH) [E] <band...@mail.nih.gov>
>Ā Ā Ā Cc: ni...@googlegroups.com <ni...@googlegroups.com>
>Ā Ā Ā Subject: Re: [niQC] Additional QC Site, UMass...
>Ā Ā Ā Hi Peter,
>Ā Ā Ā Do you know if there is some sample/collection of data which was already
>Ā Ā Ā collected on such a phantom which could be re-shared/used?
>Ā Ā Ā Without looking in detail on phantom operation -- wouldn't it also be
>Ā Ā Ā suitable to also assess multiband signal "leakage"?
>Ā Ā Ā On Fri, 03 Sep 2021, Bandettini, Peter (NIH/NIMH) [E] wrote:
>Ā Ā Ā >Ā Ā Ā I agree with all that was said here. Just to add, there has been work
>Ā Ā Ā by
>Ā Ā Ā >Ā Ā Ā Lili Mujica-Parodi on a dynamic phantom,
>Ā Ā Ā while
>Ā Ā Ā >Ā Ā Ā interesting, I think has limited utility as one doesnāt need a
>Ā Ā Ā dynamic
>Ā Ā Ā >Ā Ā Ā phantom to estimate time course stability ā but perhaps worth
>Ā Ā Ā discussing.
>Ā Ā Ā >Ā Ā Ā One thing that would be an interesting challenge would be to make a
>Ā Ā Ā >Ā Ā Ā phantom that tests local shimming capability ā that has
>Ā Ā Ā susceptibility
>Ā Ā Ā >Ā Ā Ā gradients on the same spatial scale and magnitude as a human head. If
>Ā Ā Ā you
>Ā Ā Ā >Ā Ā Ā really wanted to get fancy, you could try to create a susceptibility
>Ā Ā Ā >Ā Ā Ā phantom of a human head so that shims (including construction of a
>Ā Ā Ā >Ā Ā Ā wearable passive shim set) might be developed and optimized to
>Ā Ā Ā counter
>Ā Ā Ā >Ā Ā Ā signal dropout where we always see it.
--
Yaroslav O. Halchenko
Dartmouth College, 419 Moore Hall, Hinman Box 6207, Hanover, NH 03755
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Hi Cyril, Yarik, David, Patrick and others interested,
Ā
Should we try finalize the protocol and other details for this multi-site phantom data collection? Google doc and/or a short meeting to start with?
Ā
Thanks,
Pradeep
sure - let's start a google doc . once we have our thoughts/protocol prpoposal down, we can zoom
-- Dr Cyril Pernet, PhD, OHBM fellow, SSI fellow Neurobiology Research Unit Copenhagen University Hospital, Rigshospitalet Building 8057, Blegdamsvej 9 DK-2100 Copenhagen, Denmark
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Hi all,I'm a little late to the party as I just found out about this group, but I would love to participate in the phantom data collection. We're very interested in facility QA at our new center at Univ. of Washington, and I think this cross site collection is a great idea. Besides the standard Siemens phantoms we also have the GSP FUNSTAR and SPECTRE available.I'm also actively trying to figure out a good solution for holding spherical phantoms if there are ideas for this (I'll also comment in the Google document). My previous method of using custom milled holders from CaseForge ceased to be an option when they shut down in the pandemic. There is a thread about this over in the Siemens Neuro User Group discussion board (https://www.snug-discuss.org/) I run with Ben Inglis. Any suggestions there or here would be great. My current goal is to try to get some good 3D scans of the standard Siemens headcoils (and other manufacturers too?).ĀLooking forward to participating in any future meetings and this effort!ĀBest,
John__________________________________________________
John Pyles, Ph.D.
Associate Director, CHNPrincipal Research Scientist
Center for Human NeuroscienceDepartment of PsychologyUniversity of Washington
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Hello,
I do not have that much experience, but from the few test I did
on a phantom it was indeed very important, to reproduce the exact
same position of the phantom
I guess this will be dependent on the specific metric you use,
but for SNR, there is a strong dependency of Signal level if you
are close or not to the coil.
So mean SNR in your phantom will vary a lot for different position of the phantom relative to the coil ...
so if you want to look at SNR fluctuation through time, you have to ensure a reproducible phantom positioning ...
Romain
Registered in England and Wales.Company number: 9342804VAT Reg: GB211807049
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Good point Christoph ā perhaps the lack of significant differences between Manual Alignment and Phantom Holder was because you put in 5-10 mins to align it as best you as you could. If one were to not pay much attention or effort to it, weād very likely see significant differences.
Ā
This makes wonder how often people use phantom holders? Among the subset doing QA, that is š Ive a feeling itās not the majority.
Ā
Which leads me to an obvious best practice recommendation for QA:
Use phantom holders, reduce variability, improve QA and save time! #YOLO
Ā
Looking fwd to the Oct 21 panel to learn what different centres do.
Ā
From:
ni...@googlegroups.com <ni...@googlegroups.com> on behalf of Christoph Vogelbacher <christophv...@gmail.com>
Date: Thursday, October 7, 2021 at 8:34 AM
To: niQC <ni...@googlegroups.com>
Subject: Re: [niQC] Additional QC Site, UMass...
Hey all,Ā
To view this discussion on the web visit https://groups.google.com/d/msgid/niqc/d4f466c5-1fae-43ca-88ba-a4f1aa843dc1n%40googlegroups.com.
I was also thinking about āinflatableā holders (that could diversity of shapes etc) but there might be other issues (physics, sturdiness, stability etc) with such an idea.
Ā
From:
ni...@googlegroups.com <ni...@googlegroups.com> on behalf of John Pyles <jo...@uw.edu>
Date: Saturday, October 9, 2021 at 3:21 PM
To: niQC <ni...@googlegroups.com>
Subject: Re: [niQC] Additional QC Site, UMass...
Hi Aaron,
Ā
Thanks for the additional info and thoughts. That's great that you have the Siemens coil models! I didn't know they would provide them (even with an NDA). The Siemens holder for their "bullet" phantom is a foam rubber holder that works in the 20, 32, and 64ch coils. I'd say the positioning is okay, not great. Probably within a 5-10mm. It is a cradle design though that works well for a cylindrical phantom, but would not really work for a sphere. I'll take a photo next time I'm at our magnet.
Ā
An idea for a potentially cheap and easy(ish) to make holder -- What about a holder based on a two-part interlocking flower pot stand? (see attached photos) The top holds the spherical phantom, and the bottom of the two pieces are cut to conform exactly to the specific coil the holder is designed for? The two parts could be easily cut out of plywood or acrylic on a CNC router or cutter. Then you just have one point to glue them together for assembly. The bottom edges that touch the coil and the top that touch the phantom could be covered in thin neoprene strippingĀ for some added protection. No 3D printing and only pretty basic CNC work. What do you think?
Ā
--John
Ā
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