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josiah moss

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Dec 18, 2020, 1:46:11 PM12/18/20
to Josiah Moss' via National Citizens Initiative for Democracy
Mike Gravel always talked about voting online with new tech capabilities to accomplish direct democracy.  I think this video has the answer.  https://youtu.be/xaDulOMAjlI

michae...@gmail.com

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Dec 18, 2020, 1:58:51 PM12/18/20
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The problem with voting from your computer is that it is and remains possible that malware in your computer can mimic  the real system and change your vote behind the scene.  It’s simple impossible to do secure online voting with today’s tech no matter how much encryption you employ behind the scene.

 

Now, if you move to printing out say a receipt with how you voted and then let you check cryptographically that your vote got registered, this creates a new problem.  Yes, this seems to solve the problem of malware changing your vote, but the worry is now that you can sell your vote and prove you voted the way you were told.  This is why you don’t get a receipt telling you how you voted, only that you voted.  If you can put up with this, then online voting might be possible.

 

The ideas put forth in this video are not new.

 

So far, the best fairest election I have ever seen are those done in France.  All on paper.  Multiple observers at every step of the way.  ID is mandatory.  ID is free for all citizens.

 

Voting by mail-in ballot has different problems.  And clearly you could sell your vote and let someone fill in your ballot, so I don’t really know what is so bad about the crypto verification scheme given that.

 

By the way, I’m all for a national standard for electing the federal representatives.  A national standardized election procedure.  The states can do what they like but for senators and house of congress reps and the president and vice president, I think this should be administered nationally.  There’s probably problems with state level representation doing this though.

 

Michael

josiah moss

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Dec 18, 2020, 2:05:01 PM12/18/20
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The Raidatech system doesn’t allow mimicking even if your computer has malware, and the receipts already exist in Ohio at least via voting machines I’ve experienced it.  Only thing is I don’t get a copy to take home with me.


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nicholas holthaus

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Dec 18, 2020, 2:15:54 PM12/18/20
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Hi all.
  I tend to agree with Michael.  ANY computer or phone can be hacked even with the most sophisticated
fraud-prevention programming (including cyphers--there've been several that look even more promising than
Raidtech's, as they use the so called fool-proof one-time-use cyphering like they use with
some e-currency).
  I, too, am all for the idea of electronic voting, since eventually we'll all be on electronic currency in one form
or another anyway.
  BTW, it's ironic that Ohio was brought up as an example, as that state was the first to be
busted for Diebold's election fraud counting, back in 2004 or 2008 (?). lol
  Anyway, glad this "forum" has some activity again. :)
Nico

PS  I have ANOTHER new editor (that makes #12 since I started Dear America, heh), but
this one's different as he's been a close friend of mine since 1994.  So here's hoping
Dear America finally gets edited. :)
Nico



Evan Ravitz

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Dec 18, 2020, 5:35:22 PM12/18/20
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Yes, ever since I ran Boulder's 1993 voting by phone ballot initiative, I've known that experts almost universally say that phone or Internet voting cannot be both secure and anonymous (secret ballot.)

But, I spearheaded getting Boulder's City Charter amended in 2018 to allow online petitioning. Petitioning is obviously not  anonymous because your name is on it and the petitions become public record. 

I put online petitions in historical and international context for a cu-boulder freshman class in the anthropology of democracy here: tinyurl.com/onlinepetitions 

Unfortunately, officials have obstructed getting the system actually working, most of which I've documented here: tinyurl.com/petitionstory 

Evan Ravitz, Founder
Strengthen Direct Democracy
Facebook.com/groups/309502612936293
EvanRavitz.com
(720)403-5594

To view this discussion on the web visit https://groups.google.com/d/msgid/ni4dus/396932597.1507228.1608318951063%40mail.yahoo.com.

josiah moss

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Dec 18, 2020, 7:35:41 PM12/18/20
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We can disagree on that.  I’ve personally been involved with Raidatech in other ways besides the technology and everything I researched about them I haven’t seen anyone else do especially with the cryptocurrency.  They also are outdoing proton mail.com with email encryption.  Also I brought up Ohio because after the election was stolen because of diebold machines they put in safety measures like receipt paper trail and other things so the state doesn’t have problems like that again, so far Ohio’s votes haven’t had any big problems especially in this year’s elections like our neighbor states.

nicholas holthaus

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Dec 18, 2020, 8:02:04 PM12/18/20
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Hi Josiah (et al)
  Of course we all can disagree on things. Haha.  But Ohio didn't just "put in safety measures," they
(and all other states subsequently) completely GOT RID OF Diebold machines!  Problem is, what
replaced those machines--I can't recall the new multinational corp behind these "new" ones--is
apparently just as bad.
  But on a more positive note, what is your connection with Raidatech?  And why do you have faith
in them more than in all the other companies trying to combat online voting fraud?
  Happy holidays everyone!
Nico

josiah moss

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Dec 18, 2020, 8:22:37 PM12/18/20
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Yeah I didn’t vote on any diebold machines last time  when I went to the polls.  I’m not sure what company does it or if it’s the state’s but I do know I got to see the paper receipt print out and verified everything was correct.  On the relationship with Raidatech I’m just a small investor and have had communications with the CEO Sean Worthington.  He told me the tech on voting isn’t really a priority because they have many other projects but it is being considered.  The reason I feel it’s best for voting is because it’s quantum safe, so even a quantum computer can’t hack it like blockchain, and it’s instantaneous fast, so you can’t intercept files and if you could it’s broken up so hackers can’t piece the information together.  Many other technical things that would take me a while to explain.

josiah moss

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Dec 18, 2020, 8:29:29 PM12/18/20
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I also forgot to mention that the biggest reason I prefer Raidatech is because you can’t counterfeit anything like money, ballots, etc...   Once you POWN your money, or ballot no one can duplicate it because the system won’t allow it.  So if someone wanted to change something and pretend they were you it would detect it as counterfeit.  

michae...@gmail.com

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Dec 19, 2020, 4:21:47 AM12/19/20
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There are crypto algorithms that are supposed to be safe against quantum computing.  But this is a completely separate issue as to whether computers themselves are secure enough to vote from without some paper trail some physical thing you need to vote on.  That’s the issue.

 

To fill in the place of a physical ballot, you end up having to sacrifice one of the key points of ballot privacy: not being ABLE to show someone how you voted.  If you can show someone how you voted, then someone could force you vote a certain way. 

 

In order to absolutely be sure your vote was counted the way you voted electronically, you would need to be able to check your vote.  Being able to check your vote makes it possible to show how you voted.  This is just not possible to get around, not with quantum safe crypto or otherwise.

 

What the worry here is that in some insurrection, some government might come along and demand that you show them how you voted and then do something bad to you if you hadn’t voted for them, or threaten to do something to you if you don’t produce a ticket showing that you did vote for them. 

 

You can argue that voting by mail has similar problems and it does.  When you mail in your ballot, before the ballot is removed from the envelope it’s delivered in, it contains identifying information.  Up until now, mail-in and absentee balloting has been a relatively small number of the actual ballots returned.  The more it becomes the majority of the way ballots are returned, then, this is when you could get pressure from an external source.  It goes from becoming unlikely to possible, not from unlikely to likely.  Please keep that in mind.

 

The other issue is what happens if you get more votes than voters who actually voted.  If you chose not to vote, how do you know something didn’t vote on your behalf?  Again you can argue that this can happen in a physical election but in a physical election, it would take an army of physical people to go into many precincts and vote for no-shows.  In an electronic election, it takes one bad guy.  In this case, I think you could make it a law that everyone had to vote, even if they voted an empty ballot.  Mandatory voting is not something we do in the US.

 

So to be clear, if you allow online balloting where you can verify your vote, it’s may be ok as long as the number of people voting this way isn’t a majority.  As long as a majority do vote on paper and that takes precedence.

 

Sorry folks, I don’t see any other way!

josiah moss

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Dec 19, 2020, 9:02:18 AM12/19/20
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I’ve never heard of any crypto that’s safe from quantum computers, that’s the downside from investing in it.  The other concerns are dealt with the registration in identification.  The main thing is making sure your ballot is not counterfeit and valid.  I’ve been investing in crypto for a decade, made money and loss money, I’m pretty confident about this.  XRP is close but not like this.  You have to really research this tech before making a conclusion.  
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