Re: SF wrongheaded approach to the Citizenship question...
BfB
"Whitewolf" <r...@eirefirst.com> wrote in message
news:5a5sa01kkc3h4q48c...@4ax.com...
> From RTE today:
>
> "The Green Party and Sinn Féin have launched their campaigns for a No
vote
> in the citizenship referendum." This page :
> http://www.rte.ie/news/2004/0521/citizenship
>
> At the risk of upsetting my friends who support SF, I have to say that I
> think SF have gotten this wrong... I fear that SF are putting leftist
> idiology ahead of Ireland's best interest on this issue... I'm sure they
> will justify it to their members... But, I consider myself patriotic to
> Ireland and would feel it my duty to vote "YES" on this important issue...
> Thush putting the interests of the Irish society and culture ahead of
trying
> to be all PCish and internationalist....
>
> Don't get me wrong, I support SF on many issues... I like their approach
in
> the North and I support their efforts to achieve a United Ireland... I
feel
> that SF are the only party that takes the issue of a UI with the
seriousness
> it deserves...
>
> I would only say that SF better pause and think for a moment what sort of
> United Ireland they will achieve... They must consider the struggle of
the
> past 800 years as well as the recent history... What would Tone want?
> What of Pearse? Connolly may well have supported a NO vote being a
> socialist, but SF would do well to remember that not everyone that
supports
> their party is a socialist or leftist, and that this issue risks splitting
> their support base... Especially in America, where most of their funding
> comes from...
>
> I hope the people of Ireland WILL do the RIGHT thing and pass this
important
> referendum... I say a "YES" vote is a vote for Ireland's future!
>
> Didn't like making this post, but this issue is too important, and when I
> feel this strong about something, I refuse to remain silent to present a
> united front...
>
> <Puts on hard hat, digs into trench and awaits bombs to drop>
>
> Ray
> --
I have the same opinions. Any independent thinker would. I feel that
SF's view on the referenda may be a bit more than what it seems on
the face of it.
BfB
Howard Beale
> feel this strong about something, I refuse to remain silent to present a
> united front...
>
>
<Puts on hard hat, digs into trench and awaits bombs to drop>
They don't drop bombs anymore, they just break a few legs...
Whitewolf
hense my "united front" quip! ;-)
Ray
--
~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~
"Everyone, Republican or otherwise has their own
particular part to play. No part is too great or too
small, no one is too old or too young to do something."
Bobby Sands (1954-1981), on hunger strike in 1981
Email: ray-AT-eirefirst.com
Website: http://www.eirefirst.com
~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~
Whitewolf
The extremist liberal sci-bomb throwing and general ad-honimum brigade I
mean... LOL!
Naw, it's just not often I turn me tiny guns on me own - thankfully... If
people want to know why I'm not a shinner proper like - well, my post should
explain it...
hmhawktoo
news:5a5sa01kkc3h4q48c...@4ax.com:
> Didn't like making this post, but this issue is too important, and
> when I feel this strong about something, I refuse to remain silent to
> present a united front...
>
> <Puts on hard hat, digs into trench and awaits bombs to drop>
Sinn Fein, the Tory british establishment and the gormless little
englanders will deliver a no vote. There is a lesson in there since the
genre have surprisingly comparable methods to achieving their political
goals. If only the unionists knew that Sinn Fein would be ditched the
second full democracy was gained...........
Falcon
> Don't get me wrong, I support SF on many issues... I like their approach in
> the North and I support their efforts to achieve a United Ireland... I feel
> that SF are the only party that takes the issue of a UI with the seriousness
> it deserves...
>
> I would only say that SF better pause and think for a moment what sort of
> United Ireland they will achieve... They must consider the struggle of the
> past 800 years as well as the recent history... What would Tone want?
> What of Pearse? Connolly may well have supported a NO vote being a
> socialist, but SF would do well to remember that not everyone that supports
> their party is a socialist or leftist, and that this issue risks splitting
> their support base... Especially in America, where most of their funding
> comes from...
Fascinating insight into the mind of a 'patriot'. Isn't it about time you
realised that issues being voted on today have nothing at all to do with
what Tone, Pearse or Connolly might have thought in the past? Talk about
living in the past... Nice to see that finally you have a handle on Sinn
Féin's political philosophy though. It's been a long time coming.
Sinn Féin hasn't changed in other respects too. The article goes on: "The
demonstrators displayed articles linked to the IRA purchased in the Sinn
Féin shop in Dublin, and asked whether it was appropriate to sell t-shirts
with the slogan 'IRA Undefeated Army'."
http://www.rte.ie/news/2004/0521/newsatone/news1pm3a.smil This no gimmic,
this is a 'political party' advertising its private army and it should be
addressed.
-------
Falcon:
fide, sed cui vide. (L)
"What will History say?"
"History, sir, will tell lies as usual."
-=-
This message was posted via two or more anonymous remailing services.
Falcon
> I have the same opinions. Any independent thinker would. I feel that
> SF's view on the referenda may be a bit more than what it seems on
> the face of it.
Are you implying that Sinn Féin are not being completely honest with the
electorate?
Gerry Doyle
>I feel
> that SF are the only party that takes the issue of a UI with the
seriousness
> it deserves...
Hardly, the DUP and UUP view it quite seriously too....
> I would only say that SF better pause and think for a moment what sort of
> United Ireland they will achieve... They must consider the struggle of
the
> past 800 years as well as the recent history...
The only people who talk about 800 years of struggle are those that know
very little about it - funny really.
>What would Tone want?
An entire French army?
> What of Pearse?
An entire German army.
> Connolly may well have supported a NO vote being a
> socialist,
Internationalist actually.
but SF would do well to remember that not everyone that supports
> their party is a socialist or leftist, and that this issue risks splitting
> their support base... Especially in America, where most of their funding
> comes from...
Who are SF working for anyway - Americans that pay them or Irish people that
vote for them?
> I hope the people of Ireland WILL do the RIGHT thing and pass this
important
> referendum... I say a "YES" vote is a vote for Ireland's future!
Yes, but you don't live here, nor will you ever again, so it's OUR future,
not yours.
> Didn't like making this post, but this issue is too important, and when I
> feel this strong about something, I refuse to remain silent to present a
> united front...
Well, at least it's topical for a change, and something you've written
yourself too. Could be the start of something...
G
FreeIreland
> "Whitewolf" <r...@eirefirst.com> wrote in message
> news:5a5sa01kkc3h4q48c...@4ax.com...
>
> >I feel
> > that SF are the only party that takes the issue of a UI with the
> seriousness
> > it deserves...
>
> Hardly, the DUP and UUP view it quite seriously too....
The reall question is what is a United Ireland. Its about much more
than the removal of the border after all nowadays its just an
imaginary line on a map. In most cases you wouldn't even know you have
crossed it. Is it the removal of the lying, cheating and manipulating
British government for the lying, cheating and manipulating Irish
government. Is it the removal or the morally corrupt and murderous
RUC/PSNI for the morally corrupt Gardai. As you can probably tell I
have little faith on politicans or the police forces in either the UK
or the Republic.
A true Free Ireland is one thats free from bigitory, sectarianism and
injustice. A united Ireland is one where all the people on the island
regardless of religion or belief work towards a true free ireland. Its
where we can democratically hold politicans and the police forces
directly acountable. In northern Ireland we have no real chance of
influencing the British government, however as over 20% of the
population on this island we united could be a force in Dublin.
>
> > I would only say that SF better pause and think for a moment what sort of
> > United Ireland they will achieve... They must consider the struggle of
> the
> > past 800 years as well as the recent history...
>
> The only people who talk about 800 years of struggle are those that know
> very little about it - funny really.
>
> >What would Tone want?
>
> An entire French army?
>
> > What of Pearse?
>
> An entire German army.
>
> > Connolly may well have supported a NO vote being a
> > socialist,
>
> Internationalist actually.
I am always curious why a lot of Americans come across as anti
socialists, even regarding europeans as more socialist than the US.
This I find a little odd since its the US that has a federal
government not the Europeans. Infact it brings a wry smile to my face
when I here some Americans argue against socialism yet then almost in
the same sentence defend a federal government. I believe this is a
result of the cold war and anti communism era. Stalin and Marx claimed
socialism was the middle step towards communism, but this is not the
case. Socialism is not about having an undemocratic dictator but an
elected central or federal goverment. Of course their is much more to
it than that but I feel many people talk about socalism and liberalism
without actually realising what either of tham actually are.
>
> but SF would do well to remember that not everyone that supports
> > their party is a socialist or leftist, and that this issue risks splitting
> > their support base... Especially in America, where most of their funding
> > comes from...
>
> Who are SF working for anyway - Americans that pay them or Irish people that
> vote for them?
>
> > I hope the people of Ireland WILL do the RIGHT thing and pass this
> important
> > referendum... I say a "YES" vote is a vote for Ireland's future!
>
> Yes, but you don't live here, nor will you ever again, so it's OUR future,
> not yours.
How is a yes vote better for Irelands future.
hmhawktoo
> A true Free Ireland is one thats free from bigitory, sectarianism and
> injustice. A united Ireland is one where all the people on the island
> regardless of religion or belief work towards a true free ireland. Its
> where we can democratically hold politicans and the police forces
> directly acountable. In northern Ireland we have no real chance of
> influencing the British government, however as over 20% of the
> population on this island we united could be a force in Dublin.
Excellent. I, for one, am getting tired of the incessant calls for a
"United Ireland" as though it were the Holy Grail after which we will hve
no more trouble. Once unionist ideology is dealt with the real work only
begins and, as I have said before, I look forward to the day when we
"nordies" can present a united front in the Irish government.
>>
>> > Connolly may well have supported a NO vote being a
>> > socialist,
>>
>> Internationalist actually.
>
> I am always curious why a lot of Americans come across as anti
> socialists, even regarding europeans as more socialist than the US.
> This I find a little odd since its the US that has a federal
> government not the Europeans. Infact it brings a wry smile to my face
> when I here some Americans argue against socialism yet then almost in
> the same sentence defend a federal government. I believe this is a
> result of the cold war and anti communism era. Stalin and Marx claimed
> socialism was the middle step towards communism, but this is not the
> case. Socialism is not about having an undemocratic dictator but an
> elected central or federal goverment. Of course their is much more to
> it than that but I feel many people talk about socalism and liberalism
> without actually realising what either of tham actually are.
Excellent again. What most people fail to realise is that socialism has
been extremely effective. Americans wince at the mention of it yet they are
now enjoying the fruits of countless numbers of workers in the past
fighting for basic principles. These same principles are now well embedded
even though extreme capitalism is chipping away at the edges. The world, in
my opinion, is now due for another turn around - away from Reaganomics and
Thatcherism. The weak versions of both (Clinton and Blair) merely tinkered
at the edges. People are now getting really fed up with the new religion of
"commerce".
Ian
nationalist variety, who do nothing but cut and paste news. How boring, yawn
!!!!!!!!!
"Whitewolf" <r...@eirefirst.com> wrote in message
news:5a5sa01kkc3h4q48c...@4ax.com...
> From RTE today:
>
> "The Green Party and Sinn Féin have launched their campaigns for a No
vote
> in the citizenship referendum." This page :
> http://www.rte.ie/news/2004/0521/citizenship
>
> At the risk of upsetting my friends who support SF, I have to say that I
> think SF have gotten this wrong... I fear that SF are putting leftist
> idiology ahead of Ireland's best interest on this issue... I'm sure they
> will justify it to their members... But, I consider myself patriotic to
> Ireland and would feel it my duty to vote "YES" on this important issue...
> Thush putting the interests of the Irish society and culture ahead of
trying
> to be all PCish and internationalist....
>
> Don't get me wrong, I support SF on many issues... I like their approach
in
> the North and I support their efforts to achieve a United Ireland... I
feel
> that SF are the only party that takes the issue of a UI with the
seriousness
> it deserves...
>
> I would only say that SF better pause and think for a moment what sort of
> United Ireland they will achieve... They must consider the struggle of
the
> past 800 years as well as the recent history... What would Tone want?
> What of Pearse? Connolly may well have supported a NO vote being a
> socialist, but SF would do well to remember that not everyone that
supports
> their party is a socialist or leftist, and that this issue risks splitting
> their support base... Especially in America, where most of their funding
> comes from...
>
> I hope the people of Ireland WILL do the RIGHT thing and pass this
important
> referendum... I say a "YES" vote is a vote for Ireland's future!
>
> Didn't like making this post, but this issue is too important, and when I
> feel this strong about something, I refuse to remain silent to present a
> united front...
>
> <Puts on hard hat, digs into trench and awaits bombs to drop>
>
Whitewolf
>It would appear this newsgroup is used by no more than 3 people of the
>nationalist variety, who do nothing but cut and paste news. How boring, yawn
>!!!!!!!!!
>
>
<yawn> er... learn to snip. there's a good lad...
Ray
--
~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~
We will not tire, we will not falter! we will not Fail!
Weather we bring our Enemies to Justice, or bring
Justice to our Enemies... Justice will be DONE!!
Wanted Dead or Alive!!! -President Bush
OldWiseMan
> On Mon, 24 May 2004 19:51:48 +0100, "Ian" <we...@wmeret.co.uk> wrote:
>
> >It would appear this newsgroup is used by no more than 3 people of the
> >nationalist variety, who do nothing but cut and paste news. How boring,
yawn
> >!!!!!!!!!
> >
> >
>
> <yawn> er... learn to snip. there's a good lad...
>
I'll not have a go at you ... this time :)
Whitewolf
wrote:
Thank heaven for small mercies! ;-)
Ray
--
~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~
We will not tire, we will not falter! we will not Fail!
we will bring our Enemies to Justice, or bring
Justice to our Enemies... Justice will be DONE!!
FreeIreland
But Ray you have yet to give any reasoning as to why an Irish citizen
should vote yes to this referendum.
I have a lot of problems with this referendum, the main one being that
the lack of consultation and the speed with which it is being forced
upon us forces people into snap decisions and soundbite politics. The
problem to my ears is that it sounds very racist, especially coming
from a country where the history of emigration to all cornors of the
globe is a huge part of our national identity. Also being from the
north of ireland the fact that this referendum is being used by Herr
Paisley as evidence that the GFA is dead due to the lack of
consultation over the proposed changes is the final insult.
Its clearly not good enough to say vote "YES", when no politican will
argue against immigration overall is a very good thing. After living
in Dublin for several years and the spiraling costs of a home now
means not only are the average working couple in Ireland not able to
afford to buy a home but they soon will not even be able to rent a
house in Dublin. This is a result of a workforce shortage in the house
building trade. Crippling morgages are the norm puttng people in
severe debt. Immigration is not the problem, we need it, the problem
is managing it. We must not be like the UK or the US and simply allow
our governments to ignore complex immigration management until its too
late. A yes vote in this referendum will not result in no immigration,
but a situation like in the US with huge numbers of illegals, who will
not be paying taxes, allow their employers to undercut honest
legitimate businesses. This could effectivelly result in many more
problems and much more in costs for Ireland.
Its note leftist or liberal to vote NO to this referendum. Or maybe we
should call Bush a leftist, liberal or socialist as hes trying to
introduce at least partial citizenship for 11 million illegals in the
US.
We need to debate immigration in Ireland without right wing
xenophobia.
"UN Convention on the rights of the child":
Article 7
1. The child shall be registered immediately after birth and shall
have the right from birth to a name, the right to acquire a
nationality and. as far as possible, the right to know and be cared
for by his or her parents.
2. States Parties shall ensure the implementation of these rights in
accordance with their national law and their obligations under the
relevant international instruments in this field, in particular where
the child would otherwise be stateless.
Article 8
1. States Parties undertake to respect the right of the child to
preserve his or her identity, including nationality, name and family
relations as recognized by law without unlawful interference.
2. Where a child is illegally deprived of some or all of the elements
of his or her identity, States Parties shall provide appropriate
assistance and protection, with a view to re-establishing speedily his
or her identity.
Article 9
1. States Parties shall ensure that a child shall not be separated
from his or her parents against their will, except when competent
authorities subject to judicial review determine, in accordance with
applicable law and procedures, that such separation is necessary for
the best interests of the child. Such determination may be necessary
in a particular case such as one involving abuse or neglect of the
child by the parents, or one where the parents are living separately
and a decision must be made as to the child's place of residence.
For full convention see:
http://www.unicef.org/crc/crc.htm
The UN, France and the USA all in harmony and guess what.....Ireland
is soon to be out of step.
This isn't really a nationality question. Infact I would even be so
bold to say left and right leanings are really class issues.
Wild Colonial Boy
You're a man of conscience Ray. Its alright to disagree with party
policy.
Nik