Loyalists up the ante
Falcon
news:6e1tiv0nnurqpmqv5...@4ax.com...
> Loyalists up the ante [...]
While the pathological liars of the Republican News and Sinn Féin/IRA stoke
up religious hatred and distrust in the name of peace and reconciliation,
no doubt in another vain attempt to divert world attention from their own
criminality and local and international terrorist operations.
-------
Falcon:
fide, sed cui vide. (L)
redhandluke
"Conor Booze O Brien" <conor...@hatemail.com> wrote in message
news:2r7tivspt73mncc26...@4ax.com...
> On 4 Aug 2003 19:52:56 +0200, Falcon <falcon AT nym DOT irishgroups
> DOT com> wrote:
>
> >"Whitewolf" <r...@eirefirst.com> wrote in message
> >news:6e1tiv0nnurqpmqv5...@4ax.com...
> >> Loyalists up the ante [...]
> >
> >While the pathological liars of the Republican News and Sinn Féin/IRA
>
> You called them liars when they said all this:
>
> The latest report, called Stevens Three, found that members of the RUC
> and Army colluded with the largest loyalist terrorist group, the
> Ulster Defence Association (UDA), to murder Catholics.
>
> The Metropolitan Police Commissioner's report into collusion between
> the security forces and loyalist terrorists also found that military
> intelligence in Northern Ireland helped to prolong the Troubles
>
> The report also says its inquiries were obstructed by police and army
> officers, and vital evidence was concealed and destroyed.
>
> The Stevens' investigating teams found obstruction and even harassment
> from both the Army and elements of the RUC's Special Branch.
>
> http://news.bbc.co.uk/1/hi/northern_ireland/2955941.stm
>
>
> Looks like you were wrong there too.
>
> Maybe you were just lying?
Freddie Scappaticci, the man accused of being the IRA double agent
'Stakeknife', is to be questioned by detectives over claims that his army
and police handlers allowed him to carry out up to 40 murders in Northern
Ireland.
Scappaticci, who has consistently denied all allegations against him, is
visiting relatives in Sicily and due back in Belfast on 8 August.
A senior security source confirmed that the Sir John Stevens inquiry into
undercover operations by the security forces in Northern Ireland wants to
ask Scappaticci about his alleged role inside the IRA's 'nutting squad',
which roots out informers.
'There is panic not only among the Provos but also the army and Special
Branch over Freddie,' the source told The Observer. ' Some ex-Branch men
have moved to Spain to escape prosecutions. There is a brewing scandal here
about whether his handlers let Scappaticci get away with murder.'
Stevens's inquiry wants to broaden its investigation into collusion between
security forces and terrorists. Until now it has focused on the role of
loyalists allowed by their army and police handlers to kill at will. The
inquiry will now widen to include agents inside the IRA who were also
allowed to engage in acts of terrorism while supposedly working for the
British state.
Scappaticci's imminent arrest comes as the republican community in West
Belfast increasingly believes he was a traitor working at the heart of the
Provisional IRA.
The Observer has learnt that IRA units in Belfast have been briefed that the
Provisionals' leadership has accepted that reports of Scappaticci's
treachery are accurate.
The IRA leadership has come under tremendous pressure from their grassroots,
who believe Scappaticci is 'Stakeknife'. A fortnight ago, transcripts of
tapes from The Cook Report were read out on BBC's Panorama.
In them, Scappaticci disparages the Sinn Fein chief and former Northern
Ireland Education Minister Martin McGuinness, telling reporters that
McGuinness lured an IRA informer, Frank Hegarty, back from England to
Ireland and to his death. Scappaticci describes McGuinness as cold-blooded
and ruthless, managing to con Hegarty's mother, Rose, into believing he was
helping rather than setting up her son for murder. McGuinness has denied any
involvement with the case.
One important signal of a change of attitude towards Scappaticci has been a
subtle shift in coverage by the republican newspaper, the Andersonstown
News.
Last month the paper ran a double-page interview with Scappaticci riddled
with denials that he was 'Stakeknife'. However, in the current edition, the
paper's editor and former Sinn Fein councillor Mairtin O'Muilleoir, appears
to indicate that its readers believe Scappatticci is 'Stakeknife'.
In his column, O'Muilleoir writes: 'Time will tell (and perhaps a very short
time at that) whether Freddie Scap was or wasn't a Branch agent, though
there's no getting away from the fact that the majority of our readers, who
have been given the full story, are starting to reach their own sad
conclusion.'
Republicans in Belfast expect further revelations about Scappaticci soon,
although it is unclear if there will be an IRA communiqué confirming its
belief that their former spycatcher was himself a double agent.
Harry Merrick
"redhandluke" <the...@orangehq.co.ie> wrote in message
news:10600289...@ananke.eclipse.net.uk...
All of which merely confirms all our worst suspicions that the Republican
Movement and it's private army are a soulless bunch of murderous scabs and
not to be trusted under any circumstances. Of "course" Scappaticci was
allowed to murder on occasions! Had he not been his cover would have been
immediately blown! - My only surprise is that Stevens is so naive as to
suggest anything different, which leads one to suppose that Stevens may have
his own agenda, coupled with revenge!
--
Harry Merrick.
Nik
wrote:
>Not content with their attacks on Catholics, loyalist paramilitaries have
>shown the racist side to their makeup by erecting Nazi insignia in Ballymena
>and distributing White National Party literature as part of their campaign
>against non whites.
Now thats revealing isn't it?
<cut>
>Racist Ballymena
>
>Loyalist supporters of the White Nationalist Party (WNP) have been erecting
>Nazi flags and distributing party leaflets in the loyalist town of
>Ballymena, County Antrim.
>
>White Nationalist Party flags have been put up on lampposts beside the joint
>offices of the Social Security Agency and the Housing Executive in
>Twickenham House at Mount Street and in the Clonavon area of the town.
>
>Erecting the flags at these offices is designed to intimidate black people
>who use these agencies.
And compels black voters to vote Sinn Fein...I met Africans in Dublin
who vote for Sinn Fein...
Nik
Nik
DOT com> wrote:
>"Whitewolf" <r...@eirefirst.com> wrote in message
>news:6e1tiv0nnurqpmqv5...@4ax.com...
>> Loyalists up the ante [...]
>
>While the pathological liars
Pots and black things spring to mind for some reason...
> of the Republican News and Sinn Féin/IRA stoke
>up religious hatred
Errr...how?
> and distrust in the name of peace and reconciliation,
Who is it thats burning people out of their home again?
>no doubt in another vain attempt
Bzzzttt....wrong...
> to divert world attention from their own
>criminality and local and international terrorist operations.
Tell me, what is a terrorist again....
Nik
Harry Merrick
"Nik" <warre...@yahoo.co.nz> wrote in message
news:0vbuivc1hesj3v5ja...@4ax.com...
> On Mon, 04 Aug 2003 09:18:19 -0700, Whitewolf <r...@eirefirst.com>
> wrote:
>
> >Not content with their attacks on Catholics, loyalist paramilitaries have
> >shown the racist side to their makeup by erecting Nazi insignia in
Ballymena
> >and distributing White National Party literature as part of their
campaign
> >against non whites.
>
> Now thats revealing isn't it?
And you actually believe all this? ROTFL! Says a lot!
>
> <cut>
>
> >Racist Ballymena
> >
> >Loyalist supporters of the White Nationalist Party (WNP) have been
erecting
> >Nazi flags and distributing party leaflets in the loyalist town of
> >Ballymena, County Antrim.
Possibly as a knee jerk against the thousands of white deaths in Africa due
to black supporters of Tyrannical self appointed (and very black)
Presidents!
> >
> >White Nationalist Party flags have been put up on lampposts beside the
joint
> >offices of the Social Security Agency and the Housing Executive in
> >Twickenham House at Mount Street and in the Clonavon area of the town.
> >
> >Erecting the flags at these offices is designed to intimidate black
people
> >who use these agencies.
For goodness sake! - Get a life! - I really cannot believe that you actually
believe all this shite, and if you don't, what IS the point of posting it,
if not to blackguard your fellow Irishmen who happen to be British.
>
> And compels black voters to vote Sinn Fein...I met Africans in Dublin
> who vote for Sinn Fein...
They more than likely thought that Sinn Fein was a Black Magic forum! -
Since you are a New Zealander, maybe that is the problem, - you believe it
also!
Nick, do go back home and mind your own business, you are SO incredibly
boring!
--
Harry Merrick
Whitewolf
>On Mon, 04 Aug 2003 09:18:19 -0700, Whitewolf <r...@eirefirst.com>
>wrote:
>
>>Not content with their attacks on Catholics, loyalist paramilitaries have
>>shown the racist side to their makeup by erecting Nazi insignia in Ballymena
>>and distributing White National Party literature as part of their campaign
>>against non whites.
>
>Now thats revealing isn't it?
>
Oh yes, but not a surprise... Loyalists are allegedly linked with such
wonderful groups as the BNP, and Combat 18... Both extremist groups - who
in turn have links with extremist rightist groups here in America...
><cut>
Ray
--
~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~
"Democracy is two wolves and a lamb voting on what to
have for lunch. Liberty is a well-armed lamb
contesting the vote." - Benjamin Franklin
Email: ray-AT-eirefirst.com
Website: http://www.eirefirst.com
~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~
David C Jones
You should know nikyboy, you hero worship the scum
>
> Nik
redhandluke
> On Tue, 05 Aug 2003 16:21:33 +1200, Nik <warre...@yahoo.co.nz> wrote:
>
> >On Mon, 04 Aug 2003 09:18:19 -0700, Whitewolf <r...@eirefirst.com>
> >wrote:
> >
> >>Not content with their attacks on Catholics, loyalist paramilitaries
have
> >>shown the racist side to their makeup by erecting Nazi insignia in
Ballymena
> >>and distributing White National Party literature as part of their
campaign
> >>against non whites.
> >
> >Now thats revealing isn't it?
> >
>
> Oh yes, but not a surprise... Loyalists are allegedly linked with such
> wonderful groups as the BNP, and Combat 18... Both extremist groups - who
> in turn have links with extremist rightist groups here in America...
>
> ><cut>
Cheap political point scoring is the mark of Irish Republicans.
>
Don't start about support for the Nazis considering your fellow country men
in the IRA supported them in the second world war.
http://news.bbc.co.uk/1/hi/world/europe/1813880.stm
Murder sparks Irish racism fears
By Greta Vichey in Dublin
On a wet Monday in January, Zhao Liutao was heading home with two Chinese
friends from a night out on Dublin's northside.
Walking along a quiet residential street in the Beaumont area at around 2200
they encountered a group of Irish youths.
What was to happen next left many in Ireland stunned and horrified.
The two Chinese men and one woman became the focus of racist abuse.
One resident heard a commotion though did not believe anyone was in danger.
But a fight broke out and Zhao, who was 29 and had arrived in Dublin only a
few months earlier, was badly beaten.
He was taken to Beaumont Hospital where he died from head injuries three
days later.
Dublin's Chinese community was shocked and angered by Zhao's death, which is
being described as Ireland's first racially motivated murder.
The Irish police, the Garda Siochana, arrested two youths in connection with
the murder.
Further action
They were released without charge but a file is being prepared for the
Director of Public Prosecutions who will decide on any further action.
Zhao was one of an increasing number of overseas students heading for
Ireland to learn English.
He had been living with fellow Chinese students and was not thought to have
felt unwelcome in the capital city.
Ireland's Chinese community of more than 40,000 people is a settled one.
Most are based in Dublin but there are Chinese families around the country,
with many working in the restaurant industry.
Ireland's ethnic make-up has seen a significant change in the last decade
with more and more people classified as non-white.
One reason for this is a huge increase in the number of people seeking
asylum in the country.
Another is Ireland's recent economic boom which makes it attractive to
economic migrants from Europe, Africa and beyond.
The changes have created tensions and the Irish Department of Justice has
launched projects to tackle racism both in cities, where the pressure is
more obvious, and in rural areas.
The number of racially motivated crimes was not recorded in the 2000 crime
report of the Garda Siochana, Ireland's police.
A spokesman for the Irish police told BBC News Online that data for such
attacks would be included in the 2001 report which is still to be published.
On Dublin's Parnell Street, Femi and his wife Oji from Nigeria are busy
putting their weekly shopping into their car.
They are reluctant to discuss racism and the Irish.
"We're happy in Ireland, it has been good to us," Femi said.
"On a couple of occasions people have said horrible things, telling us to go
back to our own kind and things like that.
"It doesn't bother me too much but I would worry for my children," he said.
His wife was more concerned: "There have been a few incidents with some of
our friends.
"We don't want any trouble, we just want to get on with our lives," she
said.
"[But] I think some people resent us and blame us for taking their jobs and
their money."
Nearby, Terry Burke, who is unloading his van, conceded that not everyone
had dealt well with the changes Ireland has undergone.
Ignorance
"The Irish should be more understanding, after all didn't we emigrate to all
parts of the world and were welcomed and accepted.
"It's time we returned some of that goodwill to others looking to make their
lives better," he said.
For many, racism is the result of ignorance.
Groups in Ireland are urging positive action be taken to educate people
about differences to avoid racial tensions spilling over again with such
tragic effect.
Nik
Just answer the question.
Nik
Whitewolf
wrote:
>
>"Whitewolf" <r...@eirefirst.com> wrote in message
>news:7vrvivk31ttnjmiup...@4ax.com...
>> On Tue, 05 Aug 2003 16:21:33 +1200, Nik <warre...@yahoo.co.nz> wrote:
>>
>> >On Mon, 04 Aug 2003 09:18:19 -0700, Whitewolf <r...@eirefirst.com>
>> >wrote:
>> >
>> >>Not content with their attacks on Catholics, loyalist paramilitaries
>have
>> >>shown the racist side to their makeup by erecting Nazi insignia in
>Ballymena
>> >>and distributing White National Party literature as part of their
>campaign
>> >>against non whites.
>> >
>> >Now thats revealing isn't it?
>> >
>>
>> Oh yes, but not a surprise... Loyalists are allegedly linked with such
>> wonderful groups as the BNP, and Combat 18... Both extremist groups - who
>> in turn have links with extremist rightist groups here in America...
>>
>> ><cut>
>
>Cheap political point scoring is the mark of Irish Republicans.
>
>>
>Don't start about support for the Nazis considering your fellow country men
>in the IRA supported them in the second world war.
Snip
There were several TV documentaries and numerous newspaper reports several
years ago regarding the linkage between Loyalism and right-wing extremists
in Britain.
I particularly remember reading such reports in newspapers around the time
that C-18 invaded Lansdown Road and wen't on the rampage because Ireland
took the lead against England... This crowd were seen to give "Hitler
salutes" and were chanting racist and anti-Irish gibberish...
A TV documentary I saw was an undercover report into right-wing extremism
infiltration of the football grounds and using them as both excuses for
violence and for recruiting thugs to their cause... I particularly remember
this because part of the report was about Chelsea and their fans
infiltration by C-18 and "Chelsea Headhunters"... Fortunately, Chelsea took
measures to strangle this cancer "The British disease"? before it could
destroy them...
redhandluke
You don't have to do much digging to find widespread racism in the Republic
of Ireland,so i say again cheap political point scoring shows the weakness
of your cause.
Beacon
[SNIP]
>
> You don't have to do much digging to find widespread racism in the
Republic
> of Ireland,so i say again cheap political point scoring shows the weakness
> of your cause.
>
Well, since you claim this to be true I suppose since you claim one does not
have to do digging that you can then support your claim of widespread
racism with evidence?
Are you to lazy to do the "not much digging" to support your own words. Or
maybe it is you just can't support them since they aren't true? But then
again YOU are making the calim that they are not me so you provide the
evidence.
redhandluke
"Beacon" <openm...@mydeja.com> wrote in message
news:DspZa.26714$pK2....@news.indigo.ie...
racism in Ireland.Perhaps you simply wish to ignore the problem like your
fellow ex-pat Wolfy.
Anyway since your are obviously unable to use a search engine here goes-
http://news.bbc.co.uk/1/hi/world/europe/1813880.stm
http://www.ubcpress.ubc.ca/search/title_book.asp?BookID=3066
http://www.amnesty.ie/act/racism/a-ethnic.shtml
http://www.ireland.anglican.org/Archives/issues/issarchive/iss10.html
http://www.metroeireann.com/contentsjuly03/womenrefugees.htm
http://flag.blackened.net/revolt/talks/travell.html
http://www.un.org/WCAR/statements/ireland_hrE.htm
http://www.irishdemocrat.co.uk/reviews/racism-fanning/
The list and pages go on and on.Perhaps Republicans should wise up and stop
using racism as political pawn when they are just as guilty of the very same
offences.
>
Chesney Christ
>The list and pages go on and on.Perhaps Republicans should wise up and stop
>using racism as political pawn when they are just as guilty of the very same
>offences.
The articles you posted describe racial attacks. They do not describe
people who call themselves republicans instigating racial attacks. Not
everyone in Ireland is a republican. In fact most Irish people are not.
Racial attacks happen everywhere.
--
"Jokes mentioning ducks were considered particularly funny." - cnn.com
redhandluke
"Chesney Christ" <thegreat...@hotmail.com> wrote in message
news:85TNflFBxjN$Ew...@ntlworld.com...
> A certain redhandluke, of ni.politics "fame", writes :
>
> >The list and pages go on and on.Perhaps Republicans should wise up and
stop
> >using racism as political pawn when they are just as guilty of the very
same
> >offences.
>
> The articles you posted describe racial attacks. They do not describe
> people who call themselves republicans instigating racial attacks. Not
> everyone in Ireland is a republican. In fact most Irish people are not.
>
> Racial attacks happen everywhere.
>
> --
Loyalists/Unionists in a sad attempt to demonise them.Were exactly is it
written that all Loyalists are racist?How come the Orange Order of all
Loyalists groupings have many black members particually from Africa?
Beacon
>
> "Beacon" <openm...@mydeja.com> wrote in message
> news:DspZa.26714$pK2....@news.indigo.ie...
> >
> > "redhandluke" <the...@orangehq.co.ie> wrote in message
> > news:10604721...@ananke.eclipse.net.uk...
> > [SNIP]
> > >
> > > You don't have to do much digging to find widespread racism in the
> > Republic
> > > of Ireland,so i say again cheap political point scoring shows the
> weakness
> > > of your cause.
> > >
> >
> > Well, since you claim this to be true I suppose since you claim one does
> not
> > have to do digging that you can then support your claim of widespread
> > racism with evidence?
> >
> > Are you to lazy to do the "not much digging" to support your own words.
Or
> > maybe it is you just can't support them since they aren't true? But then
> > again YOU are making the calim that they are not me so you provide the
> > evidence.
> >
> You obviously have the problem of not being able nor willing to dig into
> racism in Ireland.Perhaps you simply wish to ignore the problem like your
> fellow ex-pat Wolfy.
>
> Anyway since your are obviously unable to use a search engine here goes-
> http://news.bbc.co.uk/1/hi/world/europe/1813880.stm
From the article:
"What was to happen next left many in Ireland stunned and horrified.
The two Chinese men and one woman became the focus of racist abuse. "
While deplorable this is hardly evidence of "widespread racism" as you claim
>
http://www.ubcpress.ubc.ca/search/title_book.asp?BookID=3066
From that reference
"This book argues that Ireland was never immune from the racist ideologies
that governed relationships between the 'west and the rest' despite a
history of colonial anti-Irish racism."
Still no evidence of "widespread racism in the Republic of Ireland"
> http://www.amnesty.ie/act/racism/a-ethnic.shtml
Do you know who founded Amnesty and do you applaud the organisation founded
by him?
By the way this reference does indicate an increase in OPINION as to racism
in Ireland but no evidence to "widespread racism" as you claim
>
http://www.ireland.anglican.org/Archives/issues/issarchive/iss10.html
A statement on Asylum Seekers in the RoI. Care to please indicate whree in
this statement it is shown that particular races are singled out as not
eligible for asylum?
> http://www.metroeireann.com/contentsjuly03/womenrefugees.htm
Metro is partisan in its views but that id okay as far as I am concerned. I
would be happy to write for them. I wonder how much they pay their
journalists. Now the Hotel is not mentined but I was at the same conference
in the Royal Hotel O Connell Street as far as I can remember. That was two
years ago.Anyway while there are racists in Dublin I STILL have no evidence
of racism in widespread RoI.
> http://flag.blackened.net/revolt/talks/travell.html
Do you just happen to think an internet search on "irish and racism" is
evidence?
This article is headed by "author's opinion alone and may be deliberately
provocative in order to start discussion".
It is also dated 1995. hardly evidence of anyting current.
> http://www.un.org/WCAR/statements/ireland_hrE.htm
Well well well. An official statement to the UN. Care to indiate where in
this reference one might find "widespread racism in Ireland"? Or do you just
love to trawl search engines and neglict to actually read the contents of
what you draw up?
>
> http://www.irishdemocrat.co.uk/reviews/racism-fanning/
Now you are off to the seeming Socialists Republicans for references. Eh
where do they mention "widespread racism"?
>
> The list and pages go on and on.
As does the list for JFK was shot by. So whaT? i asked you for evidence.
>Perhaps Republicans should wise up and stop
Perhaps you might supply evidence to support your own claims?
And perhaps you might care to read the references you trawl up and quote
specific passages instead of thinking a net search will indicate what you
say is true?
> using racism as political pawn when they are just as guilty of the very
same
> offences.
I think you are now moving on to a different premise i.e. that
Nationalist/Republican terrorists have control of the Irish State. An insane
proposition.
In any case I am on record as pointing to the Sinners and Socilais Workers
and the like of having the same mindset as the "Racists" they accuse.
So are you saying anything new or are you just simply a bigot?
Chesney Christ
>Thats the point i was making.Republicans use the issue of racism to attack
>Loyalists/Unionists in a sad attempt to demonise them.Were exactly is it
>written that all Loyalists are racist?
There are documented links between loyalist paramilitaries and
organizations like Combat 18. There are undoubtedly racist republicans
out there, but I don't know what this has got to do with racist attacks
taking place in the RoI.
>How come the Orange Order of all
>Loyalists groupings have many black members particually from Africa?
I don't know if the OO describes itself as a loyalist grouping. It is a
religious organization first and foremost.
Beacon
>
> "Chesney Christ" <thegreat...@hotmail.com> wrote in message
> news:85TNflFBxjN$Ew...@ntlworld.com...
> > A certain redhandluke, of ni.politics "fame", writes :
> >
> > >The list and pages go on and on.Perhaps Republicans should wise up and
> stop
> > >using racism as political pawn when they are just as guilty of the very
> same
> > >offences.
> >
> > The articles you posted describe racial attacks. They do not describe
> > people who call themselves republicans instigating racial attacks. Not
> > everyone in Ireland is a republican. In fact most Irish people are not.
> >
> > Racial attacks happen everywhere.
> >
> > --
> Thats the point i was making.Republicans use the issue of racism to attack
> Loyalists/Unionists in a sad attempt to demonise them.Were exactly is it
> written that all Loyalists are racist?
While they oppose racism, Republicans refer to "sectarianism" as an issue
i.e. segregation by religion. How many Catholics are in the Orange Order?
>How come the Orange Order of all
> Loyalists groupings have many black members particually from Africa?
Really? How many? does it reflect the percentage of blacks in the general
population society? Are Black Catholics allowed also?
Nik
<the...@orangehq.co.ie> wrote:
>
>"Whitewolf" <r...@eirefirst.com> wrote in message
>news:7vrvivk31ttnjmiup...@4ax.com...
>> On Tue, 05 Aug 2003 16:21:33 +1200, Nik <warre...@yahoo.co.nz> wrote:
>>
>> >On Mon, 04 Aug 2003 09:18:19 -0700, Whitewolf <r...@eirefirst.com>
>> >wrote:
>> >
>> >>Not content with their attacks on Catholics, loyalist paramilitaries
>have
>> >>shown the racist side to their makeup by erecting Nazi insignia in
>Ballymena
>> >>and distributing White National Party literature as part of their
>campaign
>> >>against non whites.
>> >
>> >Now thats revealing isn't it?
>> >
>>
>> Oh yes, but not a surprise... Loyalists are allegedly linked with such
>> wonderful groups as the BNP, and Combat 18... Both extremist groups - who
>> in turn have links with extremist rightist groups here in America...
>>
>> ><cut>
>
>Cheap political point scoring is the mark of Irish Republicans.
Do you deny that there's a link between the UDA and the BNP, Combat
18? This was demonstrated by that BBC bloke McIntyre, iirc, who
infiltrated the Chelsea Football Club supporters and found the
hooligans were connected to the UDA AND Combat 18.
>Don't start about support for the Nazis considering your fellow country men
>in the IRA supported them in the second world war.
Ireland as a country was neutral in WWII but many Irish fought in WWII
all the same.
>http://news.bbc.co.uk/1/hi/world/europe/1813880.stm
>
>Murder sparks Irish racism fears
>
>By Greta Vichey in Dublin
>On a wet Monday in January, Zhao Liutao was heading home with two Chinese
>friends from a night out on Dublin's northside.
The death was tragic. This sort of thing happens all over the world
though. I do hope that you're not trying to claim that things like
that have never been done by Loyalists...cos if you are, I'm going to
laugh at you.
Nik
Nik
Please point out, specifically, where it is that you have found
*Republicans* to be guilty of racist acts, rather than just some
Gurrier with a bad attitude.
Nik
Nik
<thegreat...@hotmail.com> wrote:
>A certain redhandluke, of ni.politics "fame", writes :
>
>>The list and pages go on and on.Perhaps Republicans should wise up and stop
>>using racism as political pawn when they are just as guilty of the very same
>>offences.
>
>The articles you posted describe racial attacks. They do not describe
>people who call themselves republicans instigating racial attacks. Not
>everyone in Ireland is a republican. In fact most Irish people are not.
A fair chunk of them are if you include Fianna Fail supporters.
>Racial attacks happen everywhere.
They do indeed.
Nik
Nik
<the...@orangehq.co.ie> wrote:
>
>"Chesney Christ" <thegreat...@hotmail.com> wrote in message
>news:85TNflFBxjN$Ew...@ntlworld.com...
>> A certain redhandluke, of ni.politics "fame", writes :
>>
>> >The list and pages go on and on.Perhaps Republicans should wise up and
>stop
>> >using racism as political pawn when they are just as guilty of the very
>same
>> >offences.
>>
>> The articles you posted describe racial attacks. They do not describe
>> people who call themselves republicans instigating racial attacks. Not
>> everyone in Ireland is a republican. In fact most Irish people are not.
>>
>> Racial attacks happen everywhere.
>>
>> --
>Thats the point i was making.
Sure as hell didn't seem like it.
>Republicans use the issue of racism to attack
>Loyalists/Unionists in a sad attempt to demonise them.
If a member of Sinn Fein is heard to utter a racist comment he/she
will be expelled from the party.
>Were exactly is it
>written that all Loyalists are racist? How come the Orange Order of all
>Loyalists groupings have many black members particually from Africa?
Because they are prepared to say, "Yessum Massa" perchance?
Nik
Beacon
> On Tue, 5 Aug 2003 21:50:04 +0100, "redhandluke"
> <the...@orangehq.co.ie> wrote:
>
> >
> >"Whitewolf" <r...@eirefirst.com> wrote in message
> >news:7vrvivk31ttnjmiup...@4ax.com...
> >> On Tue, 05 Aug 2003 16:21:33 +1200, Nik <warre...@yahoo.co.nz> wrote:
> >>
> >> ><cut>
> >
> >Cheap political point scoring is the mark of Irish Republicans.
>
> Do you deny that there's a link between the UDA and the BNP, Combat
> 18? This was demonstrated by that BBC bloke McIntyre, iirc, who
> infiltrated the Chelsea Football Club supporters and found the
> hooligans were connected to the UDA AND Combat 18.
Oddly an Irish Journalist I believe!
>
> >Don't start about support for the Nazis considering your fellow country
men
> >in the IRA supported them in the second world war.
>
> Ireland as a country was neutral in WWII but many Irish fought in WWII
> all the same.
And in WWI more people from the "German Loving" neutral South of Ireland
died in the allied trenches than from the "Loyalist" six counties.
[snip]
not...@eircom.net
Beacon you surprise me with that racist remark, Ireland was "one"
(British) during WWI and those that went to war were "loyal"
British Subjects. only the rebels stayed behind to stab in the back
while the rest of the country fought the great war. It is a pity that
Ireland (ROI) does not give proper credit to those brave men that
died during WWI. instead it finds comfort in national memorial
services for the rebels. It is long past time they recognised the
actions of her brave men who went to fight the real wars.
Sorry Beacon you can't have your cake and eat it on this one, as they
were volunteers and an anti British Republican would simple not have
gone. one might have thought you would have used this line as to why
the demise of Protestant population in the South. which would have
made a good argument in it's self.
Telmey哦myusual.com
>
>"redhandluke" <the...@orangehq.co.ie> wrote in message
>news:10605466...@ananke.eclipse.net.uk...
>>
>> "Chesney Christ" <thegreat...@hotmail.com> wrote in message
>> news:85TNflFBxjN$Ew...@ntlworld.com...
>> > A certain redhandluke, of ni.politics "fame", writes :
>> >
>> > >The list and pages go on and on.Perhaps Republicans should wise up and
>> stop
>> > >using racism as political pawn when they are just as guilty of the very
>> same
>> > >offences.
>> >
>> > The articles you posted describe racial attacks. They do not describe
>> > people who call themselves republicans instigating racial attacks. Not
>> > everyone in Ireland is a republican. In fact most Irish people are not.
>> >
>> > Racial attacks happen everywhere.
>> >
>> > --
>> Thats the point i was making.Republicans use the issue of racism to attack
>> Loyalists/Unionists in a sad attempt to demonise them.Were exactly is it
>> written that all Loyalists are racist?
>
>While they oppose racism, Republicans refer to "sectarianism" as an issue
>i.e. segregation by religion. How many Catholics are in the Orange Order?
You are being Really Silly Beacon,
How many Protestants in the Christian Brothers
How many Protestants in Knights of St Columbanus
How many Protestants in Catholic Institute Athletic Club
How many Protestants in Legion of Mary
How many Protestants in Order of Malta
How many Protestants in St Vincent de Paul Society
How many Protestants in Apostolic Work
I'd guess about the same Catholics as in the OO
The OO is a Religious Support group that the Republicans alone have
demonised and fought for many years to make it look like a sectarian
murder group. You do not have to be an Orangeman to see this.
( I am not a member of the OO, as well you know.)
>How come the Orange Order of all
>> Loyalists groupings have many black members particually from Africa?
>
>Really? How many? does it reflect the percentage of blacks in the general
>population society? Are Black Catholics allowed also?
You're going beyond silly now
Are protestant Blacks allowed in the Above groups I have mentioned ?
Are Black Protestants allowed to join the Catholic Nunnery?
The answer is the same "yes" as your question on the OO !
Just for the record Roman Catholics Can join the OO just the same as
a Protestant can marry into the Catholic church and Bring up their
Kids as Protestants. mixta religio, disparitas cultus, Decretum of
Gratian, Ne Temere,Matrimonia Mixta, no matter which Christian faith
a Catholic wishes to marry into they must seek permission from the
Pope otherwise it is not valid. If a Catholic wishes to marry a
"NON-Christian" then it is still forbidden and invalid according to
the Catholic church ie the likes of Nik's marriage, (Sorry Nik I
don't mean to degrade your Marriage in any way, it is as valid as any
marriage on this planet but it happens to be a good example of the
sectarian acts of the Catholic faith)
The OO is no more Sectarian than the Religious groups themselves
be it Catholic, Protestant, Jew, Hindu or any other Faith.
Now there are the sensible points for you to debate, you can if you
wish, If not then I'll assume you wish to ignore them.
Tel.
Beacon
<not...@eircom.net> wrote in message
news:eorejvkg1704poui1...@4ax.com...
An just what remark are you referring to? And how is it racist?
> Ireland was "one"
It still is. That's why it is called "Ireland"
> (British)
Funny the repeal of the Act of union in 1916 might have something to say on
that. As would the Declaration (Proclamation) of Independence.
>during WWI and those that went to war were "loyal"
> British Subjects.
Those that went to war for centuries (and still do) were poor Paddies who
could not get a job at home and who could never aspire to being one of the
officer class.
>only the rebels stayed behind to stab in the back
Rubbish! Michael Collins for example worked in London. and many Redmondites
joined the BA in order to secure independence.
Remember the famous "Your Country Needs you" poster? Do not forget what
nationality Kitchener was.
> while the rest of the country fought the great war.
Rubbish! Most of the casulaties suffered by British Regiments were from the
22 counties and NOT from the even the 9 Ulster Counties.
>It is a pity that
> Ireland (ROI) does not give proper credit to those brave men that
> died during WWI.
they do! They have a commeration every year in Ireland. an Irish piper and
military party also goes to the tower in Flanders anually and have done so
BEFORE the Orange lodges made a big show turning up and STILL continue to do
so AFTER the big TV show was over.
>instead it finds comfort in national memorial
> services for the rebels.
There is a national memorial service for 1916 but there are other services
also. There is one for WWI and there is a garden of Rememberance for Irish
that died in all wars including UN actions.
>It is long past time they recognised the
> actions of her brave men who went to fight the real wars.
As opposed to what sort of wars?
> Sorry Beacon you can't have your cake and eat it on this one, as they
> were volunteers and an anti British Republican would simple not have
> gone.
Nonsence! Many are still there in Iraq. Who were the Redmondites?
> one might have thought you would have used this line as to why
> the demise of Protestant population in the South. which would have
> made a good argument in it's self.
The Protestant Population in the south has always been in the minority. they
have never been segrated against by law as they have in the North.
And your evidence for a massive decline is?
Protestants in the South I would guess have a good deal of landed gentry and
indeed even nationalists in their numbers as Protestants in the North always
had. Independence and religion today are not mutually exculsive.
Beacon
[snip]
> Rubbish! Most of the casulaties suffered by British Regiments were from
the
> 22 counties and NOT from the even the 9 Ulster Counties.
Correction 23 counties not 22.
>[snip]
>
> >It is long past time they recognised the
> > actions of her brave men who went to fight the real wars.
Well you might begin by accepting that more from the South of ireland died
in those wars than from the North. Do you recognise that?
[snip]
Nigel Morris
"Beacon" <openm...@mydeja.com> wrote in message
news:thMZa.26892$pK2....@news.indigo.ie...
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Checked by AVG anti-virus system (http://www.grisoft.com).
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Beacon
"Nigel Morris" <nigelr...@ozemail.com.au> wrote in message
news:SBMZa.306$E82....@nnrp1.ozemail.com.au...
> Proportinately-speaking the North suffered the greater loss of life.
And your evidence is?
Please stop topposting.
You seem to be claiming that while 72.8 percent of the population lived in
the Irish Republic they suffered ONLY 62.66 percent of the casualties. This
is indeed true. So what of 18,849 (62.66%) "Republicans"? Are they to be
terms lesser contributers because 11,232 (37.34%) people from the 6 counties
who died were in a larger proportion than their 27.2% of the population?
Five counties having the highest percentage of WWI casualties
Down 2056 3.97%
Derry 1343 3.81%
Armagh 1128 3.74 %
Dublin 4973 3.69 %
Antrim 5122 3.37%
As you can see Dublin figures in the top five and in terms of numbers is
second only to Antrim.
You still will not recognise the vast amount of deaths in Units such as the
Royal Dublin Fusilers (who mustered troops from Dublin) 3160 Irish of 4508
total casualties 70 precent the HIGHEST of any Irish Regiment or the Royal
Munster Fusilers (mustered in Cork) 1793 Irish of 2650 total casualties
second only to the RDF in terms of percentage Irish killed. do you regognise
these brave Cork and Dublin Catholics?
[snip]
.
> >
> > Well you might begin by accepting that more from the South of ireland
died
> > in those wars than from the North. Do you recognise that?
> > [snip]
Still no answer except "well as a proportion of population MORE from the
North died". Look! I just gave you the figures. MORE from the South died
than from the North. I will not deride the Northerners and I recognise they
died but you do not seem to accept that people from southern Ireland
REPUBLICANS CATHOLICS Dublinmen Corkmen comrades all died in grewater
numbers!
Nigel Morris
But as I said, the North put more of its heart into the effort.
What does the Republic do to honour its WW1 dead?
The only war dead they care about is Pearse and Co.
"Beacon" <openm...@mydeja.com> wrote in message
news:I4NZa.26905$pK2....@news.indigo.ie...
Whitewolf
wrote:
And where is the evidence that Republican organizations are linked with
worldwide nazi/extremist right-wing groups?
Beacon
> The aggregate number of deaths from the South was indeed greater.
>
> But as I said, the North put more of its heart into the effort.
>
> What does the Republic do to honour its WW1 dead?
Excluding flanders ceremonies and the Garden of Remberance and bearing in
mind the Republic is a Neutral country,
there is a ceremony at Islandbridge Dublin every year.
A fugure of 49,493 is carved in stone on the Islandbridge Irish National War
Memorial.
You might go to your library and read "Orange Green and Khaki" by Tom
Johnstone. Dublin 1992.
The national War Memorial committee was formed in 1919 Inaugurated by Field
marschal French July 1919 when he was Lord Lieutenant of Ireland. Their
49,493 is wring because as I pointed out only (a big only) 70 per cent of
the Royal Dublin Fusiliers were Irish for example. The actual total is
closer to 35,000. Lists containing the names of about 30,000 exist.
>
> The only war dead they care about is Pearse and Co.
You obviously have not been to an Islandbridge ceremony. The President of
Ireland has however. The Queen never has. And I would remind you of WWII and
UN actions as well as very well doccumented history of Irish Units back to
Brian Boru in 1014. thats when you used to have English kings. You haven't
had any in the ten centuries since.
>
> "Beacon" <openm...@mydeja.com> wrote in message
> news:I4NZa.26905$pK2....@news.indigo.ie...
[snip]
Still no reply. who is the person denying the significance of remembering
Irish deaths in WWI now?
Beacon
> >
>
> And where is the evidence that Republican organizations are linked with
> worldwide nazi/extremist right-wing groups?
Next the accusations will no doubt be back to other unproven links with
extreme left wing groups and mafia in Colombia.
Ironically British and US intellegence have closer links to extremists.
not...@eircom.net
>
>"Beacon" <openm...@mydeja.com> wrote in message
>news:p7MZa.26891$pK2....@news.indigo.ie...
>[snip]
>> Rubbish! Most of the casulaties suffered by British Regiments were from
>the
>> 22 counties and NOT from the even the 9 Ulster Counties.
>
>Correction 23 counties not 22.
I would not pull you for that it would be childish to do so ,
but the point is you are dividing a country before it was divided
In what can only be classed as a propaganda (yes it's me)
game. the point you should be arguing is that the whole country
lost a lot of lives during the war and not that the north or the
south lost more and Arran Isle. it is pure republican glorification
rubbish to argue the country was split before it was
>>[snip]
>>
>> >It is long past time they recognised the
>> > actions of her brave men who went to fight the real wars.
>
>Well you might begin by accepting that more from the South of ireland died
>in those wars than from the North. Do you recognise that?
>[snip]
See above the country was one and romantic republican story
telling cannot change that fact, so let me rephrase what you wrote
Well you might begin by accepting that people from ireland died
in those wars. (esp WWI) Do you recognise that? without the
glorific republican propaganda spin that you tried to use.
redhandluke
> A certain redhandluke, of soc.culture.irish "fame", writes :
>
> >Thats the point i was making.Republicans use the issue of racism to
attack
> >Loyalists/Unionists in a sad attempt to demonise them.Were exactly is it
> >written that all Loyalists are racist?
>
> There are documented links between loyalist paramilitaries and
> organizations like Combat 18. There are undoubtedly racist republicans
> out there, but I don't know what this has got to do with racist attacks
> taking place in the RoI.
The use of racism for political gain is sad!Need i always have to menchion
the documented links between the IRA and the Nazis during WW2?
>
> >How come the Orange Order of all
> >Loyalists groupings have many black members particually from Africa?
>
> I don't know if the OO describes itself as a loyalist grouping. It is a
> religious organization first and foremost.
>
OFFS!Its part of the greater Loyalist family.
redhandluke
> I think you are now moving on to a different premise i.e. that
> Nationalist/Republican terrorists have control of the Irish State. An
insane
> proposition.
> In any case I am on record as pointing to the Sinners and Socilais Workers
> and the like of having the same mindset as the "Racists" they accuse.
> So are you saying anything new or are you just simply a bigot?
Let me this simple for you.-
Republican propaganda states-all Protestants are evil baby
eaters,particually juicy black babies.
Republican propaganda states-all Catholics in Ireland love everyone in the
world and welcome them all with open arms.
Both statements are obviously shite!
GET IT?
redhandluke
*Irish Republicans have been linked to Libya,if i remember rightly they blow
up planes full of innocent men/women and children.Need i menchion the other
scumbags associates of the Irish terrorists?
> >>
> >> I particularly remember reading such reports in newspapers around the
time
> >> that C-18 invaded Lansdown Road and wen't on the rampage because
Ireland
> >> took the lead against England... This crowd were seen to give "Hitler
> >> salutes" and were chanting racist and anti-Irish gibberish...
> >>
*Don't remember Loyalists being involved.
> >> A TV documentary I saw was an undercover report into right-wing
extremism
> >> infiltration of the football grounds and using them as both excuses for
> >> violence and for recruiting thugs to their cause... I particularly
> >remember
> >> this because part of the report was about Chelsea and their fans
> >> infiltration by C-18 and "Chelsea Headhunters"... Fortunately, Chelsea
> >took
> >> measures to strangle this cancer "The British disease"? before it could
> >> destroy them...
And this has what to do with Loyalism?
> >>
> >> Ray
> >
> >You don't have to do much digging to find widespread racism in the
Republic
> >of Ireland,so i say again cheap political point scoring shows the
weakness
> >of your cause.
> >
> >
>
> And where is the evidence that Republican organizations are linked with
> worldwide nazi/extremist right-wing groups?
There isn't any unless you menchion the links between the IRA and the NAZIS
during WW2!
redhandluke
>
> "Whitewolf" <r...@eirefirst.com> wrote in message
> news:jeafjvkvjbmk9ran1...@4ax.com...
> > On Sun, 10 Aug 2003 00:35:52 +0100, "redhandluke"
<the...@orangehq.co.ie>
> > wrote:
> [snip]
> > >
> >
> > And where is the evidence that Republican organizations are linked with
> > worldwide nazi/extremist right-wing groups?
>
> Next the accusations will no doubt be back to other unproven links with
> extreme left wing groups and mafia in Colombia.
LOL the three eco tourists.........lol!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!
>
> Ironically British and US intellegence have closer links to extremists.
Show me the links from British to extremists.
>
>
>
>
redhandluke
>
> "Nik" <warre...@yahoo.co.nz> wrote in message
> news:pakejvs4novjn3ve9...@4ax.com...
> > On Tue, 5 Aug 2003 21:50:04 +0100, "redhandluke"
> > <the...@orangehq.co.ie> wrote:
> >
> > >
> > >"Whitewolf" <r...@eirefirst.com> wrote in message
> > >news:7vrvivk31ttnjmiup...@4ax.com...
> > >> On Tue, 05 Aug 2003 16:21:33 +1200, Nik <warre...@yahoo.co.nz>
wrote:
> [snip]
> > >>
> > >> ><cut>
> > >
> > >Cheap political point scoring is the mark of Irish Republicans.
> >
> > Do you deny that there's a link between the UDA and the BNP, Combat
> > 18? This was demonstrated by that BBC bloke McIntyre, iirc, who
> > infiltrated the Chelsea Football Club supporters and found the
> > hooligans were connected to the UDA AND Combat 18.
>
> Oddly an Irish Journalist I believe!
>
>
> >
> > >Don't start about support for the Nazis considering your fellow country
> men
> > >in the IRA supported them in the second world war.
> >
> > Ireland as a country was neutral in WWII but many Irish fought in WWII
> > all the same.
The IRA were quite willing to be of use to the Nazi's,what does that say
about them?
>
> And in WWI more people from the "German Loving" neutral South of Ireland
> died in the allied trenches than from the "Loyalist" six counties.
I bet they were'nt Irish Republicans!
>
> [snip]
>
>
>
Nik
<the...@orangehq.co.ie> wrote:
>
>
>> I think you are now moving on to a different premise i.e. that
>> Nationalist/Republican terrorists have control of the Irish State. An
>insane
>> proposition.
>
>
>
>> In any case I am on record as pointing to the Sinners and Socilais Workers
>> and the like of having the same mindset as the "Racists" they accuse.
>> So are you saying anything new or are you just simply a bigot?
>
>
>Let me this simple for you.-
>
>Republican propaganda states-all Protestants are evil baby
>eaters,particually juicy black babies.
No it doesn't.
>Republican propaganda states-all Catholics in Ireland love everyone in the
>world and welcome them all with open arms.
No it doesn't.
>Both statements are obviously shite!
Thats right, they are.
>GET IT?
I get that you believe what you want to believe regardless of the
actual facts of the matter, i.e. bigot.
Nik
Nik
The Stevens Report.
Nik
Nik
Whatever you say, it is still a FACT that more Irish Catholics died in
WWI than Ulster Protestants...
Nik
Nik
Alright then, more Irish Catholics died in WWI than Irish Protestants.
Nik
not...@eircom.net
you simply don't see your republican sarcastic racist remarks do you
>> Ireland was "one"
>
>It still is. That's why it is called "Ireland"
>
>> (British)
>
>Funny
Not funny Fact dear boy
>the repeal of the Act of union in 1916 might have something to say on
>that. As would the Declaration (Proclamation) of Independence.
in what way ? In what year did Ireland split it's land in two?
Or are you just being silly by arguing the actual name of the Island.
which I "highlighted" for that very reason
>>during WWI and those that went to war were "loyal"
>> British Subjects.
>
>Those that went to war for centuries (and still do) were poor Paddies
Oh gawd, pull out the Violins and open a new box of tissues
>who
>could not get a job at home
some possibly but many if not the majority Joined their rulings
countries army (British in case you forgot), freely and to better
themselves, do you think there was conscription?
>could not get a job at home
some maybe but what are you implying? surely you are not saying poor
paddy was too thick to get a job ?
you would be wrong.... if you are.
The victoria Cross was awarded to more Irishmen than Scotsmen
something like 30 odd more(190?), alone proving that the Irish
soldier who fought with Britain were not poor thick paddies but
intelligent heros that the country should be proud of.
>and who could never aspire to being one of the
>officer class.
Such Rubbish you are coming off with, many, many became officers
of outstanding class some of the toughest officers were Irish and of
unsurpassed and outstanding bravery! don't knock them. you will never
ever find British or Ulstermen or Protestants or Loyalists
ridiculing or belittling any soldier from the whole of this island
who fought in those wars. they were and still remain great heros to
them all.
>>only the rebels stayed behind to stab in the back
>
>Rubbish! Michael Collins for example
Michael collins was not one of those, even I admire Collins, who
those (incase you forgot) cowardly rebels murdered.
But those back stabbing rebels killed over 200 soldier when they
returned from WWI, simply because the fought in with Britain WWI
>worked in London. and many Redmondites
>joined the BA in order to secure independence.
The "volunteers" joined because they thought that they would be
deployed as a home guard so that the regulars could be released to
fight in France, as it turned out half of then ran off and split the
whole recruitment in two. Of course he Redmondites were a bad example
for you because they split (National Volunteer Force.& 'Irish
Volunteers' ) and decided to fight against the British and the back
stabbing mentioned, while the others went off to fight the Great
wars. Redmondites were another back mark of Ireland.
>Remember the famous "Your Country Needs you" poster? Do not forget what
>nationality Kitchener was.
Where did your tangent begin? Kit was the one who delayed the royal
accent in 1912/14? Ireland was all but independent all that was
needed was the royal seal/approval , but he and almost he alone
with-held it while the war war raging, yes a Fine Irishman indeed.
then of course a handful of rebels took the glory and tried to
declare "they" won the countries freedom when infact there was
"FREEDOM" imminent in the first place.
>> while the rest of the country fought the great war.
>
>Rubbish! Most of the casulaties suffered by British Regiments were from the
>22 counties
Rubbish most of the casualties suffered by British Regiments were by
British Ie English and Scottish regiments , Where on earth did you
get the notion that more people from the southern part of the Irish
part of "Britain" died than from other parts of Britain
>and NOT from the even the 9 Ulster Counties.
Don't be silly
Total "Ireland" loss was around 35,500, Britains loss around
1,000,000 at the Battle of the Somme alone 60,000 British soldiers
were killed or wounded. at that battle alone the The 36th (Ulster)
Division (not from the south) lost 32,000 so a mere 35,000 Irish out
of a war that saw 1,000,000 British dead and around 10,000,000 total
dead was not anything like you try to portray as more died from the
"south",
I could help you out by picking selective battles to make your claim
true, but I shan't.
>>It is a pity that
>> Ireland (ROI) does not give proper credit to those brave men that
>> died during WWI.
>
>they do!
In reality since when ?
>They have a commeration every year in Ireland. an Irish piper
One flipping piper for a nations war heros.. big deal when they
first started to commemorate their dead they had to do it in secret
for fear of their lives from the rebels
>and
>military party also goes to the tower in Flanders anually and have done so
>BEFORE the Orange lodges made a big show turning up and STILL continue to do
>so AFTER the big TV show was over.
you should join in those celebrations then and stop your bigoted
notion that they are pure sectarian actions and republican spin.
>>instead it finds comfort in national memorial
>> services for the rebels.
>
>There is a national memorial service for 1916
For a few rebels. in a fake claim to have won independence
>but there are other services
>also. There is one for WWI
Bit hypocritical really as they were part of British rule and
nothing to do with the RoI which did not even exist then
>and there is a garden of Rememberance for Irish
>that died in all wars including UN actions.
It was the fact that there have been "ROI" Irish Soldiers killed in
UN action that prompted a garden of Remembrance, the adding of WW
loss was an after thought.
>>It is long past time they recognised the
>> actions of her brave men who went to fight the real wars.
>
>As opposed to what sort of wars?
The trouble for one, and the fake war to independence
> > Sorry Beacon you can't have your cake and eat it on this one, as they
>> were volunteers and an anti British Republican would simple not have
>> gone.
>
>Nonsence! Many are still there in Iraq.
Still in Iraq since WWI ...wow that will be some feat!!
was it not created in 1932 ?
>Who were the Redmondites?
I give up, were they a pop group from 1900's ?
Padraig Pearse, who said of the Redmondites: "The men who have led
Ireland for the last 25 years... they are bankrupt, in policy, in
credit and now even in words. They have nothing to propose to Ireland,
no way of wisdom, no counsel of courage. When they speak their
utterances... are the mumblings and the gibberings of lost souls."
>> one might have thought you would have used this line as to why
>> the demise of Protestant population in the South. which would have
>> made a good argument in it's self.
>
>The Protestant Population in the south has always been in the minority. they
>have never been segrated against by law as they have in the North.
Just murdered for fighting In the great war
Irish people should be proud not murdered for their effort in WW's
just as this Irish person wishes to Rightfully honors his father and
tell the true story (I take my hat off to him for truth of it)
http://www.irishcultureandcustoms.com/ACalend/VetsWW1.html
>Protestants in the South I would guess have a good deal of landed gentry and
>indeed even nationalists in their numbers as Protestants in the North always
>had. Independence and religion today are not mutually exculsive.
stop apologising and making excuses for the unrighted wrongs of
misguided so called republicans! Irishmen have the right to stand
proud for their truth and their valor in such wars!
they do not need republican propaganda to do it!
not...@eircom.net
Beacon
>
>
[snip]
> Let me this simple for you.-
>
> Republican propaganda states-all Protestants are evil baby
> eaters,particually juicy black babies.
Really? what Republican source do you have as evidence for this clearly
incorrect claim?
>
> Republican propaganda states-all Catholics in Ireland love everyone in the
> world and welcome them all with open arms.
Where is this stated? Where do you get the idea that Republicans are all
Catholics? Republicans are not concerned if people are Catholic Protestant
or any religion or atheist. Republicanism is a political philosophy not a
religious one. Orangeism however is not exclusively political.
>
> Both statements are obviously shite!
Indeed they are since you just invented them and have provided no evidence
for them.
>
> GET IT?
why dont you get the evidence to support your own claims first?
Beacon
<not...@eircom.net> wrote in message
news:j3sfjv0kik930u1u1...@4ax.com...
> "Beacon" <openm...@mydeja.com> wrote;
> >
> >"Beacon" <openm...@mydeja.com> wrote in message
> >news:p7MZa.26891$pK2....@news.indigo.ie...
> >[snip]
> >> Rubbish! Most of the casulaties suffered by British Regiments were from
> >the
> >> 22 counties and NOT from the even the 9 Ulster Counties.
> >
> >Correction 23 counties not 22.
>
> I would not pull you for that it would be childish to do so ,
> but the point is you are dividing a country before it was divided
> In what can only be classed as a propaganda (yes it's me)
> game.
this is rubbish also. go bacjk and read the thread. I was responding to the
claim that people from the South only cared about Pearse and only fought for
the IRA. I pointed out that many more people from the South died in the
Great War than people from the North and that ALL should be recognised. That
means recognising the Catholics from Dublin and cork who died as well.
Do you recognise their sacrifice?
> the point you should be arguing is that the whole country
> lost a lot of lives during the war
Dont tell me what I shoul argue. But in any case it IS the point I made in
reply to the claim that only Northerners fought for the British Army in WWI.
>and not that the north or the
> south lost more and Arran Isle. it is pure republican glorification
> rubbish to argue the country was split before it was
I did not argue it was split. If you notice I refreeed to the NINE counties
of Ulster. I did that because the Stats were complied that way. Now do you
recognise the deaths of ALL the Irish that died in WWI ? Do you recognise
the deaths of Corkmen and Dublinmen who were Catholic and who died in the
trenches as well as those from other parts of Ireland? Or do you prefer to
leave the vast majority out?
>
> >>[snip]
> >>
> >> >It is long past time they recognised the
> >> > actions of her brave men who went to fight the real wars.
> >
> >Well you might begin by accepting that more from the South of ireland
died
> >in those wars than from the North. Do you recognise that?
> >[snip]
>
> See above the country was one and romantic republican story
> telling cannot change that fact, so let me rephrase what you wrote
> Well you might begin by accepting that people from ireland died
> in those wars. (esp WWI) Do you recognise that? without the
> glorific republican propaganda spin that you tried to use.
Go back and read what I wrote. I recognise Irish that died in ALL wars and
that goes back to Brian Boru and up to recent UN involvment.
Now do you recognise them? ALL of them? ALL which in WWI was mostly Cathlics
from Dublin cork and the South of Ireland?
>
>
Beacon
>
> "Beacon" <openm...@mydeja.com> wrote in message
> news:B1QZa.26923$pK2....@news.indigo.ie...
> >
> > "Whitewolf" <r...@eirefirst.com> wrote in message
> > news:jeafjvkvjbmk9ran1...@4ax.com...
> > > On Sun, 10 Aug 2003 00:35:52 +0100, "redhandluke"
> <the...@orangehq.co.ie>
> > > wrote:
> > [snip]
> > > >
> > >
> > > And where is the evidence that Republican organizations are linked
with
> > > worldwide nazi/extremist right-wing groups?
> >
> > Next the accusations will no doubt be back to other unproven links with
> > extreme left wing groups and mafia in Colombia.
>
> LOL the three eco tourists.........lol!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!
See! told you!
>
>
>
> >
> > Ironically British and US intellegence have closer links to extremists.
>
> Show me the links from British to extremists.
Well read the MI6 list see whose wife is arguing her husband was let down by
the British. Who was section head in Bagota in the years just before the C3
were apprehended? Who sold Saddam his supergun? Who colluded with Loyalist
terrorists? We can go back to Arabia India or Afghanistan when Britian was
THE world power and look at maverick tribes and how they related to the
British. How did heroine get into China? The history of the Rubber industry.
The list is quite long.
Beacon
<not...@eircom.net> wrote in message
news:5lvfjv04aadq2ti4v...@4ax.com...
Yes a fact. Ireland is an island and was for the last hundred million years.
>
> >the repeal of the Act of union in 1916 might have something to say on
> >that. As would the Declaration (Proclamation) of Independence.
>
> in what way ? In what year did Ireland split it's land in two?
Ireland never split its land in two. It is a distinct geographic entity.
Political juristictions may differ but that has been true for centuries.
Partition is only one manifestation Norman conquest Brethon law Surrender
and Regrant the list goes on. all of these facilitated other political
manefestations. To argue that Ireland ever had a particular political
manifestation which encompassed the whole Island with the consent of the
vast majority of the people is rather silly and pointless.
> Or are you just being silly by arguing the actual name of the Island.
> which I "highlighted" for that very reason
No you didn't I did!
Prove you did!
>
> >>during WWI and those that went to war were "loyal"
> >> British Subjects.
> >
> >Those that went to war for centuries (and still do) were poor Paddies
>
> Oh gawd, pull out the Violins and open a new box of tissues
I mean peasantry and muster rolls for British Regiments which date back to
the 1600s and from then right to today can attest that what I say is true.
> >who
> >could not get a job at home
>
> some possibly but many if not the majority Joined their rulings
> countries army (British in case you forgot),
this is also not historically accurate. many joined the French Spanish and
Dutch armies.
>freely and to better
> themselves, do you think there was conscription?
>
> >could not get a job at home
>
> some maybe but what are you implying? surely you are not saying poor
> paddy was too thick to get a job ?
> you would be wrong.... if you are.
i am saying that poor paddy was kept poor and ignorant by a system that
mitigated in favour of the landlords and officers.
>
> The victoria Cross was awarded to more Irishmen than Scotsmen
> something like 30 odd more(190?), alone proving that the Irish
> soldier who fought with Britain were not poor thick paddies but
> intelligent heros that the country should be proud of.
Education and wealth are not perrequsites for the VC. If they were Paddies
would have the same proportion that they have in Knighthoods and titles.
>
> >and who could never aspire to being one of the
> >officer class.
>
> Such Rubbish you are coming off with, many, many became officers
> of outstanding class some of the toughest officers were Irish and of
> unsurpassed and outstanding bravery! don't knock them.
I never knocked them. I did not deny Irish could become officers but I would
equate it with Blacks becoming Officers in the US army. Please indicate the
percentage of "Irish " officers in British regiments (at any time in history
including now ) and the percentage of the Army who are Irish. If the Irish
hold anywhere near the percentage of officerships that they have in troops
you will surprise me.
>you will never
> ever find British or Ulstermen or Protestants or Loyalists
> ridiculing or belittling any soldier from the whole of this island
Stop trying to build up straw men. I did not belittle Irish Troops. If I did
where did I? Produce evidence or shut up on that.
> who fought in those wars. they were and still remain great heros to
> them all.
Play your "harp" elsewhere. I already stated that Irish who died in all wars
should be and ARE commemerated. When did you ever attend a service in Dublin
or anywhere in the south if you are so stuck on commemerating ALL Irishmen?
>
> >>only the rebels stayed behind to stab in the back
> >
> >Rubbish! Michael Collins for example
>
> Michael collins was not one of those, even I admire Collins,
Collins WAS a rebel! And he organised the execution of the Cairo Mob!
>who
> those (incase you forgot) cowardly rebels murdered.
> But those back stabbing rebels killed over 200 soldier when they
> returned from WWI, simply because the fought in with Britain WWI
The Cairo mob were spies.
>
> >worked in London. and many Redmondites
> >joined the BA in order to secure independence.
>
> The "volunteers" joined because they thought that they would be
> deployed as a home guard so that the regulars could be released to
> fight in France,
Redmond specifically preached the policy of "Fight for Britian and Ireland
will be made free"
>as it turned out half of then ran off and split the
> whole recruitment in two.
And your evidence is?
>Of course he Redmondites were a bad example
> for you because they split (National Volunteer Force.& 'Irish
> Volunteers' ) and decided to fight against the British and the back
> stabbing mentioned, while the others went off to fight the Great
> wars. Redmondites were another back mark of Ireland.
Now you are contradicting yourself. Redmond asked them to fight. some did.
they died in Flanders. Don't you applaud those that did die? Your straw man
is now burning you. I thought you would never belittle soldiers that (by
your own admission ) died in the trenches.
> >Remember the famous "Your Country Needs you" poster? Do not forget what
> >nationality Kitchener was.
>
> Where did your tangent begin?
It began with the claim that you made that Southerners only fought for
Pearse. Kitchner was from Kerry!
[snip]
yes a Fine Irishman indeed.
[snip]
>
> >> while the rest of the country fought the great war.
Who is dividing the country now? I thought you claimed all Irish should be
praised who fought? does that include Catholics from Kerry Dublin and Cork?
> >
> >Rubbish! Most of the casulaties suffered by British Regiments were from
the
> >22 counties
>
> Rubbish most of the casualties suffered by British Regiments were by
> British Ie English and Scottish regiments ,
I referred to British regiments mustered in Ireland who fought in WWI in
flanders as distinct from Irish who joined French or American regiments.
>Where on earth did you
> get the notion that more people from the southern part of the Irish
> part of "Britain" died than from other parts of Britain
I did NOT state that! dont build straw men.
>
>
> >and NOT from the even the 9 Ulster Counties.
>
> Don't be silly
>[snip the straw man argument against a claim I DID NOT make.
> I could help you out by picking selective battles to make your claim
> true, but I shan't.
Do not bother I did not claim it.
>
>
> >>It is a pity that
> >> Ireland (ROI) does not give proper credit to those brave men that
> >> died during WWI.
> >
> >they do!
>
> In reality since when ?
See below.
>
> >They have a commeration every year in Ireland. an Irish piper
>
> One flipping piper for a nations war heros..
the orange men are not turning up. The did for the TV but now are absent.
And The point you made was not one of scale it was whether OFFICIAL
commemerations take place.
Furthermore you should be aware of the symbolism of a lone piper rather than
a whole pomp of a pipe band.
>big deal when they
> first started to commemorate their dead they had to do it in secret
> for fear of their lives from the rebels
Really? and your evidence is?
>
> >and
> >military party also goes to the tower in Flanders anually and have done
so
> >BEFORE the Orange lodges made a big show turning up and STILL continue to
do
> >so AFTER the big TV show was over.
>
> you should join in those celebrations then
I will gop back to my lone piper on that. they are not celebrations! they
are commemerations!
>and stop your bigoted
> notion that they are pure sectarian actions and republican spin.
You have shown no evidence for bigotry from my words.
>
> >>instead it finds comfort in national memorial
> >> services for the rebels.
> >
> >There is a national memorial service for 1916
>
> For a few rebels. in a fake claim to have won independence
The whole army was not mobilised but there were several hundred in Dublin in
1916. How many were at the Boston Tea Party? Was that a fake?
>
> >but there are other services
> >also. There is one for WWI
>
> Bit hypocritical really as they were part of British rule and
> nothing to do with the RoI which did not even exist then
I did not say it was organised by the State only that the President
attended.
> >and there is a garden of Rememberance for Irish
> >that died in all wars including UN actions.
>
> It was the fact that there have been "ROI" Irish Soldiers killed in
> UN action that prompted a garden of Remembrance, the adding of WW
> loss was an after thought.
So what?
>
> >>It is long past time they recognised the
> >> actions of her brave men who went to fight the real wars.
Does that include Catholics from Dublin Belfast Cork and Donegal?
> >
> >As opposed to what sort of wars?
>
> The trouble for one, and the fake war to independence
Would that be the US war of Independance?
and you rule them out on what grounds? Should the gunpowder plot be thrown
in as well?
>
> > > Sorry Beacon you can't have your cake and eat it on this one, as they
> >> were volunteers and an anti British Republican would simple not have
> >> gone.
> >
> >Nonsence! Many are still there in Iraq.
>
> Still in Iraq since WWI ...wow that will be some feat!!
> was it not created in 1932 ?
There are Irish soldiers in British Units in Iraq. many of them are
Republicans.
>
> >Who were the Redmondites?
>
> I give up, were they a pop group from 1900's ?
>
> Padraig Pearse, who said of the Redmondites: "The men who have led
> Ireland for the last 25 years... they are bankrupt, in policy, in
> credit and now even in words. They have nothing to propose to Ireland,
> no way of wisdom, no counsel of courage. When they speak their
> utterances... are the mumblings and the gibberings of lost souls."
You qoute a Republican. I am wondering why you agree with the words of
Pearse. He viewed the Redmondites as selling out to firht for Britian. But
howsoever he viewed it they fought and died in Flanders. why do you belittle
them against your own principles?
>
> >> one might have thought you would have used this line as to why
> >> the demise of Protestant population in the South. which would have
> >> made a good argument in it's self.
> >
> >The Protestant Population in the south has always been in the minority.
they
> >have never been segrated against by law as they have in the North.
>
> Just murdered for fighting In the great war
> Irish people should be proud not murdered for their effort in WW's
The Irish never killed anyone for fighting in WWI or WWII. That is a
ridiculous assertion.
>[snip]
>
>
> stop apologising and making excuses for the unrighted wrongs of
> misguided so called republicans! Irishmen have the right to stand
> proud for their truth and their valor in such wars!
> they do not need republican propaganda to do it!
does that include the Catholics from Dublin Cork and elsewhere in the South
who died in British Units? Up to and including recently in Iraq?
not...@eircom.net
>
>> >> Beacon you surprise me with that racist remark,
>> >
>> >An just what remark are you referring to? And how is it racist?
>>
>> you simply don't see your republican sarcastic racist remarks do you
>>
>> >> Ireland was "one"
>> >
>> >It still is. That's why it is called "Ireland"
>> >
>> >> (British)
>> >
>> >Funny
>>
>> Not funny Fact dear boy
>
>Yes a fact. Ireland is an island and was for the last hundred million years.
>
you agree wonderful throw out a flag.
>>
>> >the repeal of the Act of union in 1916 might have something to say on
>> >that. As would the Declaration (Proclamation) of Independence.
>>
>> in what way ? In what year did Ireland split it's land in two?
>
>Ireland never split its land in two. It is a distinct geographic entity.
>Political juristictions may differ but that has been true for centuries.
>Partition is only one manifestation Norman conquest Brethon law Surrender
>and Regrant the list goes on. all of these facilitated other political
>manefestations. To argue that Ireland ever had a particular political
>manifestation which encompassed the whole Island with the consent of the
>vast majority of the people is rather silly and pointless.
>
>
>> Or are you just being silly by arguing the actual name of the Island.
>> which I "highlighted" for that very reason
>
>No you didn't I did!
No you didn't I did!... Prove it (to replay ur childish action)
>Prove you did!
Talk about straw!! cant you remember, have you lost the plot ?
pointless you throwing in stupid prove its
Message-ID: <5lvfjv04aadq2ti4v...@4ax.com>
>> >>during WWI and those that went to war were "loyal"
>> >> British Subjects.
>> >
>> >Those that went to war for centuries (and still do) were poor Paddies
>>
>> Oh gawd, pull out the Violins and open a new box of tissues
>
>I mean peasantry and muster rolls for British Regiments which date back to
>the 1600s and from then right to today can attest that what I say is true.
Rubbish! put your republican violins away
>> >who
>> >could not get a job at home
>>
>> some possibly but many if not the majority Joined their rulings
>> countries army (British in case you forgot),
>
>this is also not historically accurate. many joined the French Spanish and
>Dutch armies.
FFS how many tangents do you run away with ..
you stated of the "British regiments" nothing about French Spanish
Dutch ,
so getting back to your CLAIM that more Irish(southern) died in WW1
than British where is your proof to this fanciful republican notion
>>freely and to better
>> themselves, do you think there was conscription?
>
>
>
>
>>
>> >could not get a job at home
>>
>> some maybe but what are you implying? surely you are not saying poor
>> paddy was too thick to get a job ?
>> you would be wrong.... if you are.
>
>
>i am saying that poor paddy was kept poor and ignorant by a system that
>mitigated in favour of the landlords and officers.
shove you poor paddy notion where the sun don't shine, Paddy was not
"poor" Paddy was a brave soldier who was no less (but on occasions
more than) English or Scottish soldiers in the British Forces
>> The victoria Cross was awarded to more Irishmen than Scotsmen
>> something like 30 odd more(190?), alone proving that the Irish
>> soldier who fought with Britain were not poor thick paddies but
>> intelligent heros that the country should be proud of.
>
>Education and wealth are not perrequsites for the VC. If they were Paddies
>would have the same proportion that they have in Knighthoods and titles.
What sort of combination of letters was that rant ?
must be some other "poor" republican violin-ic or should that be
Harp-on-ic post
>> >and who could never aspire to being one of the
>> >officer class.
>>
>> Such Rubbish you are coming off with, many, many became officers
>> of outstanding class some of the toughest officers were Irish and of
>> unsurpassed and outstanding bravery! don't knock them.
>
>I never knocked them. I did not deny Irish could become officers but I would
>equate it with Blacks becoming Officers in the US army.
Bollocks! how do you think the SAS/Desert Rats started? as a good
Example our very own Blair Mayne look him up.
>Please indicate the
>percentage of "Irish " officers in British regiments (at any time in history
>including now ) and the percentage of the Army who are Irish. If the Irish
>hold anywhere near the percentage of officerships that they have in troops
>you will surprise me.
You are making the claim! you prove it by supplying the evidence#
Stop this republican chant of "we're poor paddies" once someone
joined the British forces "ALL" were treated the same as soldiers and
if they were any good they progressed through the ranks like Blair
Mayne or many other "Irish" people.
>>you will never
>> ever find British or Ulstermen or Protestants or Loyalists
>> ridiculing or belittling any soldier from the whole of this island
>
>Stop trying to build up straw men. I did not belittle Irish Troops. If I did
>where did I? Produce evidence or shut up on that.
Your the straw man builder here with your weak claims of poor down
trodden "Paddies" in the British Army, you are WRONG they were
treated as equals, some shone above the call of duty some became
great leaders they had the same rights and were treated the very same
as every other person who joined the British army, the treatment may
not have been very good but it was an even treatment never the less.
what "Irish" Troops there in effect was no Irish troops in WWII
Ireland was (whats the word) neutral, they were volunteering
British troops because they could hold duel nationality and because
Britain allowed anyone from the Island of Ireland to fight for
Britain if they so wished. Britain is one of the few countries in the
world (if not the only) that allows Foreign (Irish) people to freely
join and fight in its ranks
>> who fought in those wars. they were and still remain great heros to
>> them all.
>
>Play your "harp" elsewhere.
Oh your changing your violins to harps now how childish
>I already stated that Irish who died in all wars
>should be and ARE commemerated.
Not properly recognised to this day but recent years are seeing
that change, Ireland still wants to distance it's self from any
involvement with the World wars and indeed until sept 11 distance
from Britain, of course with Britain being in the breast pocket of
the power of the USA Ireland wants to look a little cleaner and
only now starting to deal with its safe haven for its own grown
terrorists.
>< When did you ever attend a service in Dublin
>or anywhere in the south if you are so stuck on commemerating ALL Irishmen?
As happens Yes I have infact yesterday I attended a funeral service
of an old soldier who had the letters TD after his name it was
indeed a semi military service.
But I will not attend a commemoration of a republican Terrorist which
is what your twisting tactics are trying to get me to say
Why else did you highlight "ALL Irishmen" so much ??
>
>>
>> >>only the rebels stayed behind to stab in the back
>> >
>> >Rubbish! Michael Collins for example
>>
>> Michael collins was not one of those, even I admire Collins,
>
>Collins WAS a rebel!
He was a soldier. and wore a uniform he did not leave massive car
bombs in the likes of Omagh or napalm hotels like La mon or set 2
dozen bombs off in a town to kill many innocent kids and people like
Bloody Friday.
>And he organised the execution of the Cairo Mob!
So ? they were as you tell us spies
>>who
>> those (incase you forgot) cowardly rebels murdered.
>> But those back stabbing rebels killed over 200 soldier when they
>> returned from WWI, simply because the fought in with Britain WWI
>
>The Cairo mob were spies.
Well bully beef, A bit like Irish beef these days very rare and
hard to come by.
>> >worked in London. and many Redmondites
>> >joined the BA in order to secure independence.
>>
>> The "volunteers" joined because they thought that they would be
>> deployed as a home guard so that the regulars could be released to
>> fight in France,
>
>Redmond specifically preached the policy of "Fight for Britian and Ireland
>will be made free"
That was a good point to which you back up what I said about a fake
winning of independence for Ireland, which you by-passed
The deal for "Irelands 'Freedom'" was done before WW1 all that was
needed to complete the "deal" was the King to sign the deed,
Kitchener (an Irishman) was the one who held that off while the war
raged. the Rebels effectively stole his Glory and declared that
they had won Irelands freedom we all know in reality they did not.
>>as it turned out half of then ran off and split the
>> whole recruitment in two.
>
>And your evidence is?
You know very well I even included it in this post you are
replying to which you were to blind/bigoted to see
it is in this following paragraph need I repeat it...... Redmond's
army the Redmondites split in two ...the (National Volunteer Force.&
'Irish Volunteers' one half went to war the other cowards would not
go they chickened out and stayed home to stab the country in the back
and not only fight against the British but also killed many Irish
who came home after the war. figures of over 200 murdered by them
are easy to find reference to .
>>Of course he Redmondites were a bad example
>> for you because they split (National Volunteer Force.& 'Irish
>> Volunteers' ) and decided to fight against the British and the back
>> stabbing mentioned, while the others went off to fight the Great
>> wars. Redmondites were another back mark of Ireland.
>
>Now you are contradicting yourself. Redmond asked them to fight.
Now you are getting somewhere but you appear to forget what happened
when he asked then to fight !!! Half of them would not and that "army
split in two, (National Volunteer Force.& 'Irish Volunteers')
FFS how many times must I repeat this for you to see it.
>some did. they died in Flanders.
Thats right but the other half that chickened out and stayed home to
fight the British did not die at Flanders
>Don't you applaud those that did die?
>Your straw man is now burning you.
What you mean by that is you have lost all credibility in your
argument and have nothing to defend yourself with
>I thought you would never belittle soldiers that (by
>your own admission ) died in the trenches.
Where ?? you have lost the complete plot and are making no sense at
all now, you must have lost all your debate to try this stupid plan
Prove it as you keep saying!!
I have not at any time belittled any Irishman who Fought in the WW's
not even those that fought on the side of the Germans etc
for they too wore a uniform and fought under command of a
recognised countries army and command
>
>> >Remember the famous "Your Country Needs you" poster? Do not forget what
>> >nationality Kitchener was.
>>
>> Where did your tangent begin?
>
>It began with the claim that you made
So it was indeed a blind tangent thanks that explains a lot
>It began with the claim that you made
> that Southerners only fought for
>Pearse. Kitchner was from Kerry!
I Made no such Claim !!!
Prove it ,
you can't because I did not.
which proves yet again you lost the whole plot of the tread
>
>[snip]
> yes a Fine Irishman indeed.
>[snip]
>>
>> >> while the rest of the country fought the great war.
>Who is dividing the country now? I thought you claimed all Irish should be
>praised who fought? does that include Catholics from Kerry Dublin and Cork?
Don't snip half way through a relevant thread so it fits in with
your lost plot agenda it makes no sense, so I'll ignore it until
you put it back in it's correct context.
>
>> >
>> >Rubbish! Most of the casulaties suffered by British Regiments were from
>the
>> >22 counties
>>
>> Rubbish most of the casualties suffered by British Regiments were by
>> British Ie English and Scottish regiments ,
>
>I referred to British regiments mustered in Ireland who fought in WWI in
>flanders as distinct from Irish who joined French or American regiments.
No you did not you referred to "British regiments" with no mention
of where they were mustered, You can change your story now if you
wish but that is not what you said please don't make yourself out to
be a liar in this way you did say did you not................
"Most of the casulaties suffered by British Regiments were from
the 22 counties"
>
>>Where on earth did you
>> get the notion that more people from the southern part of the Irish
>> part of "Britain" died than from other parts of Britain
>
>I did NOT state that! dont build straw men.
you did
"Most of the casulaties suffered by British Regiments were from
the 22 counties"
Please stop proving you are a liar I'm sure you are not!! and a
simple explanation that you lost the plot will explain it.
>
>>
>>
>> >and NOT from the even the 9 Ulster Counties.
>>
>> Don't be silly
>>[snip the straw man argument against a claim I DID NOT make.
>
>
>> I could help you out by picking selective battles to make your claim
>> true, but I shan't.
>
>Do not bother I did not claim it.
you mean this claim that you wrote..........
"Most of the casulaties suffered by British Regiments were from
the 22 counties and NOT from the even the 9 Ulster Counties.
>>
>>
>> >>It is a pity that
>> >> Ireland (ROI) does not give proper credit to those brave men that
>> >> died during WWI.
>> >
>> >they do!
>>
>> In reality since when ?
>
>See below.
Later maybe.... depends on your response to this I guess
but the thread need split up a little now it is too long because
you keep losing the plot.
T
redhandluke
>
> "redhandluke" <the...@orangehq.co.ie> wrote in message
> news:10606377...@ananke.eclipse.net.uk...
> >
> >
> [snip]
> > Let me this simple for you.-
> >
> > Republican propaganda states-all Protestants are evil baby
> > eaters,particually juicy black babies.
>
> Really? what Republican source do you have as evidence for this clearly
> incorrect claim?
> >
> > Republican propaganda states-all Catholics in Ireland love everyone in
the
> > world and welcome them all with open arms.
>
> Where is this stated? Where do you get the idea that Republicans are all
> Catholics? Republicans are not concerned if people are Catholic
Protestant
> or any religion or atheist. Republicanism is a political philosophy not a
> religious one. Orangeism however is not exclusively political.
Right let me see Republicans have never carried out sectarian murders?What
about Darkley?Enniskillen,the list is bloody endless.Don't try and tell me
that Republicans are sectarian cause your talking out your arse.
>
> >
> > Both statements are obviously shite!
>
> Indeed they are since you just invented them and have provided no evidence
> for them.
>
The implication was there to see,and i don't believe you are a stupid as not
to have seen it.
> >
> > GET IT?
>
> why dont you get the evidence to support your own claims first?
>
Pot calling kettle black alert!
>
>
redhandluke
No show me the govermental links,not the few bad apples.Show me were it has
been proven that the goverment sponsered the killing of Republican
terrorists suspects.
>
> Nik
redhandluke
>
> >
> >
> >
> > >
> > > Ironically British and US intellegence have closer links to
extremists.
> >
> > Show me the links from British to extremists.
>
> Well read the MI6 list see whose wife is arguing her husband was let down
by
> the British. Who was section head in Bagota in the years just before the
C3
> were apprehended? Who sold Saddam his supergun? Who colluded with Loyalist
> terrorists? We can go back to Arabia India or Afghanistan when Britian was
> THE world power and look at maverick tribes and how they related to the
> British. How did heroine get into China? The history of the Rubber
industry.
> The list is quite long.
>
Ahh the old "well we aint that bad, look at what the Brits do"apologist
speak from Republicans.You can justify anything can't you.Next you will be
telling me the IRA were perfectly justified in murdering their way though 30
odd years.
>
>
>
redhandluke
According to you old nic everyone that ain't a Republican ass kisser is a
bigot.Thank god your thousands of miles away doing your bit for dear ole iro
land,while the rest of us have to stay in N.I and continue to suffer because
of the spoutings of you and other Republican bigots.
>
> Nik
Nik
False.
Nik
Nik
<the...@orangehq.co.ie> wrote:
>
>"Beacon" <openm...@mydeja.com> wrote in message
>news:o76_a.27064$pK2....@news.indigo.ie...
>>
>> "redhandluke" <the...@orangehq.co.ie> wrote in message
>> news:10606377...@ananke.eclipse.net.uk...
>> >
>> >
>> [snip]
>> > Let me this simple for you.-
>> >
>> > Republican propaganda states-all Protestants are evil baby
>> > eaters,particually juicy black babies.
>>
>> Really? what Republican source do you have as evidence for this clearly
>> incorrect claim?
>> >
>> > Republican propaganda states-all Catholics in Ireland love everyone in
>the
>> > world and welcome them all with open arms.
>>
>> Where is this stated? Where do you get the idea that Republicans are all
>> Catholics? Republicans are not concerned if people are Catholic
>Protestant
>> or any religion or atheist. Republicanism is a political philosophy not a
>> religious one. Orangeism however is not exclusively political.
>
>Right let me see Republicans have never carried out sectarian murders?What
>about Darkley?Enniskillen,the list is bloody endless.Don't try and tell me
>that Republicans are sectarian cause your talking out your arse.
So any time that a person who is also Protestant died as a result of
an IRA action, thats sectarian?
There are Catholics living in Enniskillen. I've got a Catholic friend
living there...
The point is, the IRA have never tried to bring down the Anglican/CoI,
nor have they "fought for the Roman Catholic church". Their argument
is NOT a religious argument, it is a political one.
>> > Both statements are obviously shite!
>>
>> Indeed they are since you just invented them and have provided no evidence
>> for them.
>>
>The implication was there to see,and i don't believe you are a stupid as not
>to have seen it.
Your bigotry was there to see, and I don't believe you are so stupid
that you do not realise it.
>> > GET IT?
>>
>> why dont you get the evidence to support your own claims first?
>>
>Pot calling kettle black alert!
You've got a career in stand up comedy looming, I can see it.
You made the claims, you support them.
Nik
Nik
The Stevens Report.
If you want to bury your head in the sand and pretend its not
happening, well, there's nothing I can do. Its as plain as day.
Nik
Nik
<the...@orangehq.co.ie> wrote:
>> > > Ironically British and US intellegence have closer links to
>extremists.
>> >
>> > Show me the links from British to extremists.
>>
>> Well read the MI6 list see whose wife is arguing her husband was let down
>by
>> the British. Who was section head in Bagota in the years just before the
>C3
>> were apprehended? Who sold Saddam his supergun? Who colluded with Loyalist
>> terrorists? We can go back to Arabia India or Afghanistan when Britian was
>> THE world power and look at maverick tribes and how they related to the
>> British. How did heroine get into China? The history of the Rubber
>industry.
>> The list is quite long.
>>
>
>Ahh the old "well we aint that bad, look at what the Brits do"apologist
>speak from Republicans.
No answer noted.
>You can justify anything can't you.
No.
>Next you will be telling me the IRA were perfectly justified in murdering their way though 30
>odd years.
There were IRA actions which I, certainly in hindsight, could never
support but their need to exist in face of sectarian persecution of
the community from whence they come is justified.
If Paisley hadn't whipped up the Loyalists back in the 60's, the
territorial house burnings wouldn't have started, the British army
wouldn't have returned to occupy, we wouldn't have had Bloody
Sunday...
In 1968 the IRA was all but defunct...it was British actions that
caused them to reactivate.
Nik
Beacon
<not...@eircom.net> wrote in message
news:3guhjvcf9gsm0v20o...@4ax.com...
> "Beacon" <openm...@mydeja.com> wrote;
> >
>
> >> >> Beacon you surprise me with that racist remark,
> >> >
> >> >An just what remark are you referring to? And how is it racist?
No answer. Cn't support your assettions yet again. Not surprising since it
just isn't true.
> >>
> >> you simply don't see your republican sarcastic racist remarks do you
> >>
> >> >> Ireland was "one"
> >> >
> >> >It still is. That's why it is called "Ireland"
NOTE : IRELAND highlighted in qoutes so : "Ireland" - I wrote that not you.
> >> >
[snip]
> >Ireland never split its land in two. It is a distinct geographic entity.
> >Political juristictions may differ but that has been true for centuries.
> >Partition is only one manifestation Norman conquest Brethon law Surrender
> >and Regrant the list goes on. all of these facilitated other political
> >manefestations. To argue that Ireland ever had a particular political
> >manifestation which encompassed the whole Island with the consent of
the
> >vast majority of the people is rather silly and pointless.
> >
> >
> >> Or are you just being silly by arguing the actual name of the Island.
> >> which I "highlighted" for that very reason
> >
> >No you didn't I did!
> No you didn't I did!... Prove it (to replay ur childish action)
I just showed you where I highlighted "IRELAND". where did you highlight the
Idea of Ireland being called "Ireland" because that is the name of the
Island?
>
> >Prove you did!
>
> Talk about straw!! cant you remember, have you lost the plot ?
> pointless you throwing in stupid prove its
Still can't prove any assertions. you really do begin to make yourself look
foolish.
[snip]
> >
> >I mean peasantry and muster rolls for British Regiments which date back
to
> >the 1600s and from then right to today can attest that what I say is
true.
>
> Rubbish! put your republican violins away
The muster rolls exist! Plain ordinary Irish paddies went to war for Britian
for centuries. I suggest you contacct the British Legion in Dublin and ask
some of the Catholic Dublin men there if you want to deride their service
any more.
> >> >who
> >> >could not get a job at home
> >>
> >> some possibly but many if not the majority Joined their rulings
> >> countries army (British in case you forgot),
> >
> >this is also not historically accurate. many joined the French Spanish
and
> >Dutch armies.
>
> FFS how many tangents do you run away with ..
The majority at certain points in history did NOT join the British army. YOU
raised that pouint I am just point out you are wrong. Nor did the majority
of Americans join the British Army during their War of Independence. You
just can not admit when you are plainly wrong can you? You make yourself
look a worse fool.
> you stated of the "British regiments" nothing about French Spanish
> Dutch ,
go back and read the central point of my argument - that Irish who died (not
British) from ALL OVER Ireland but mostly (in the case of WWI) from the
South. this does not include Irish who may have fought for other Allied
forces or even possibly in the German Army ( and I also think they should be
commemerated). Commemeration is for the dead not for the victors. the idea
that more Irish died in WWI than anyone else is preposterous. I have pointed
out in the past that the Russians have had more casualties particularly in
WWII. Do not build straw men and then claim I built them.
> so getting back to your CLAIM that more Irish(southern) died in WW1
> than British where is your proof to this fanciful republican notion
I already gave the stats. Go back and read them! I gave them for the
proveriences of Leinster Munster and Connaught as compared to the Nine
counties of Ulster. there were STILL more!
> >>freely and to better
> >> themselves, do you think there was conscription?
> >
> >
> >
> >
> >>
> >> >could not get a job at home
> >>
> >> some maybe but what are you implying? surely you are not saying poor
> >> paddy was too thick to get a job ?
> >> you would be wrong.... if you are.
> >
> >
> >i am saying that poor paddy was kept poor and ignorant by a system that
> >mitigated in favour of the landlords and officers.
>
> shove you poor paddy notion where the sun don't shine, Paddy was not
> "poor" Paddy was a brave soldier who was no less (but on occasions
> more than) English or Scottish soldiers in the British Forces
The fact that a system that mitigated in favour of an officer land owining
class in Britian is beside the point. that system existed in Ireland was the
point i just made. I am sure it also existed in England India etc.
> >> The victoria Cross was awarded to more Irishmen than Scotsmen
> >> something like 30 odd more(190?), alone proving that the Irish
> >> soldier who fought with Britain were not poor thick paddies but
> >> intelligent heros that the country should be proud of.
> >
> >Education and wealth are not perrequsites for the VC. If they were
Paddies
> >would have the same proportion that they have in Knighthoods and titles.
>
>
> What sort of combination of letters was that rant ?
> must be some other "poor" republican violin-ic or should that be
> Harp-on-ic post
I note you can not contradict my stats so you rely on rhetoric? MORE
southerners died in WWI than Northerners. The records are there to examine.
>
>
> >> >and who could never aspire to being one of the
> >> >officer class.
> >>
> >> Such Rubbish you are coming off with, many, many became officers
> >> of outstanding class some of the toughest officers were Irish and of
> >> unsurpassed and outstanding bravery! don't knock them.
> >
> >I never knocked them. I did not deny Irish could become officers but I
would
> >equate it with Blacks becoming Officers in the US army.
>
> Bollocks! how do you think the SAS/Desert Rats started? as a good
> Example our very own Blair Mayne look him up.
And they are still there in Iraq today. what percentage of them are Irish.
what percentage of the Irish are officers?
> >Please indicate the
> >percentage of "Irish " officers in British regiments (at any time in
history
> >including now ) and the percentage of the Army who are Irish. If the
Irish
> >hold anywhere near the percentage of officerships that they have in
troops
> >you will surprise me.
>
> You are making the claim! you prove it by supplying the evidence#
I did not make the claim. You stated:
[begion quote]
many many became officers of outstanding class
[end quote]
I asked how many? what percentage?
> Stop this republican chant of "we're poor paddies" once someone
> joined the British forces "ALL" were treated the same as soldiers and
> if they were any good they progressed through the ranks like Blair
> Mayne or many other "Irish" people.
The officer class of WWI were from the ruling classes of Britian. few were
Irish.
>
> >>you will never
> >> ever find British or Ulstermen or Protestants or Loyalists
> >> ridiculing or belittling any soldier from the whole of this island
> >
> >Stop trying to build up straw men. I did not belittle Irish Troops. If I
did
> >where did I? Produce evidence or shut up on that.
>
> Your the straw man builder here with your weak claims of poor down
> trodden "Paddies" in the British Army, you are WRONG they were
> treated as equals,
Yes. Equals to the poor British who also had to go cap in hand to the
Landlord and the Mill owner.
>some shone above the call of duty some became
> great leaders they had the same rights and were treated the very same
> as every other person who joined the British army,
this is nonsense! Irish were predominently Catholic. Catholics did not have
equal rights in the past (up to the mid 19th century). Nor did Jews for that
matter.
>the treatment may
> not have been very good but it was an even treatment never the less.
> what "Irish" Troops there in effect was no Irish troops in WWII
> Ireland was (whats the word) neutral, they were volunteering
> British troops because they could hold duel nationality and because
> Britain allowed anyone from the Island of Ireland to fight for
> Britain if they so wished. Britain is one of the few countries in the
> world (if not the only) that allows Foreign (Irish) people to freely
> join and fight in its ranks
So what? What has that to do with the fact that most of the Irish casualties
from WWI were from the South.
>
> >> who fought in those wars. they were and still remain great heros to
> >> them all.
> >
> >Play your "harp" elsewhere.
>
> Oh your changing your violins to harps now how childish
I was using a methaphor which is an emblem on the cap badges of "Irish"
regiments.
>
> >I already stated that Irish who died in all wars
> >should be and ARE commemerated.
>
> Not properly recognised
oh so now you cahnge from "no commemeration ceremony" to "not a proper
ceremony" . You said no commemeration. you were wrong.
>to this day but recent years are seeing
> that change, Ireland still wants to distance it's self from any
> involvement with the World wars and indeed until sept 11 distance
> from Britain, of course with Britain being in the breast pocket of
> the power of the USA Ireland wants to look a little cleaner and
> only now starting to deal with its safe haven for its own grown
> terrorists.
Now who is going off on tangents. And unsupportable ones at that. More
Southerners died in WWI. Catholic southerners. Do you commemerate them?
>
> >< When did you ever attend a service in Dublin
> >or anywhere in the south if you are so stuck on commemerating ALL
Irishmen?
>
> As happens Yes I have infact yesterday I attended a funeral service
> of an old soldier who had the letters TD after his name it was
> indeed a semi military service.
> But I will not attend a commemoration of a republican Terrorist which
> is what your twisting tactics are trying to get me to say
> Why else did you highlight "ALL Irishmen" so much ??
Because MOST of the Irish who died in British regiments in WWI were Southern
Catholics. something you do not seem willing to accept. But I do not deny
that many Northern men Catholic and Protestant also died and should be
commemerated. I am just saying that if you commemerate ALL then MOST of that
ALL are Southern Dublinmen and the like and Catholics.
> >
> >>
> >> >>only the rebels stayed behind to stab in the back
> >> >
> >> >Rubbish! Michael Collins for example
> >>
> >> Michael collins was not one of those, even I admire Collins,
> >
> >Collins WAS a rebel!
>
> He was a soldier. and wore a uniform
When he worked in London he wore the uniform of the post office and worked
as a spy!
>he did not leave massive car
> bombs in the likes of Omagh or napalm hotels like La mon or set 2
> dozen bombs off in a town to kill many innocent kids and people like
> Bloody Friday.
So what I amde no reference to terrorist attacks. I stated that most of the
Irish who died in British regiments in WWI were Southerners.
>
> >And he organised the execution of the Cairo Mob!
>
> So ? they were as you tell us spies
>
>
> >>who
> >> those (incase you forgot) cowardly rebels murdered.
> >> But those back stabbing rebels killed over 200 soldier when they
> >> returned from WWI, simply because the fought in with Britain WWI
> >
> >The Cairo mob were spies.
>
> Well bully beef, A bit like Irish beef these days very rare and
> hard to come by.
Harldy a retort. Your "clean" wars of men in uniforms fighting across a
battlefield did not exist even then.
>
> >> >worked in London. and many Redmondites
> >> >joined the BA in order to secure independence.
> >>
> >> The "volunteers" joined because they thought that they would be
> >> deployed as a home guard so that the regulars could be released to
> >> fight in France,
> >
> >Redmond specifically preached the policy of "Fight for Britian and
Ireland
> >will be made free"
>
> That was a good point to which you back up what I said about a fake
> winning of independence for Ireland, which you by-passed
> The deal for "Irelands 'Freedom'" was done before WW1 all that was
> needed to complete the "deal" was the King to sign the deed,
That was no deal. It was an Act of Parliament. The same Parliament that
subsequently set up or assisted in puppet governments in Persia post WWI.
> Kitchener (an Irishman) was the one who held that off while the war
> raged. the Rebels effectively stole his Glory and declared that
> they had won Irelands freedom we all know in reality they did not.
>
>
> >>as it turned out half of then ran off and split the
> >> whole recruitment in two.
> >
> >And your evidence is?
>
> You know very well
>I even included it in this post you are
> replying to which you were to blind/bigoted to see
> it is in this following paragraph need I repeat it...... Redmond's
> army the Redmondites split in two ...the (National Volunteer Force.&
> 'Irish Volunteers' one half went to war the other cowards
Please supply the numbers of soldiers mustered and the numbers who stayed in
service or some evidence to back up your "half were desserters claims". also
the "half" (unproven) who remained could be regarded as the Redmondites.
>would not
> go they chickened out and stayed home to stab the country in the back
> and not only fight against the British but also killed many Irish
> who came home after the war. figures of over 200 murdered by them
> are easy to find reference to .
>
> >>Of course he Redmondites were a bad example
> >> for you because they split (National Volunteer Force.& 'Irish
> >> Volunteers' ) and decided to fight against the British and the back
> >> stabbing mentioned, while the others went off to fight the Great
> >> wars. Redmondites were another back mark of Ireland.
> >
> >Now you are contradicting yourself. Redmond asked them to fight.
>
> Now you are getting somewhere but you appear to forget what happened
> when he asked then to fight !!! Half of them would not and that "army
> split in two, (National Volunteer Force.& 'Irish Volunteers')
The group who fought in WWI were Redmondites. the Irish Volunteers were a
Republican Army. redmond was not their leader.
> FFS how many times must I repeat this for you to see it.
>
>
> >some did. they died in Flanders.
>
> Thats right but the other half that chickened out and stayed home to
> fight the British did not die at Flanders
The "other half" as you call them were NOT by definition Redmondites.
>
> >Don't you applaud those that did die?
> >Your straw man is now burning you.
>
> What you mean by that is you have lost all credibility in your
> argument and have nothing to defend yourself with
What I mean is do you applaud the mostly Southern Catholics Irish who died
in WWI.
>
> >I thought you would never belittle soldiers that (by
> >your own admission ) died in the trenches.
>
> Where ?? you have lost the complete plot and are making no sense at
> all now, you must have lost all your debate to try this stupid plan
> Prove it as you keep saying!!
The Redmondites who died in Flanders were mostly Southern Mostly Catholic.
Do you deny stating they were a "black mark on ireland"
>
> I have not at any time belittled any Irishman who Fought in the WW's
> not even those that fought on the side of the Germans etc
> for they too wore a uniform and fought under command of a
> recognised countries army and command
>
> >
> >> >Remember the famous "Your Country Needs you" poster? Do not forget
what
> >> >nationality Kitchener was.
> >>
> >> Where did your tangent begin?
> >
> >It began with the claim that you made
>
> So it was indeed a blind tangent thanks that explains a lot
>
> >It began with the claim that you made
> > that Southerners only fought for
> >Pearse. Kitchner was from Kerry!
>
> I Made no such Claim !!!
Sorry I retract that. You did not make the claim. Redhand luke did. That is
where it began in any case.
>
> Prove it ,
> you can't because I did not.
> which proves yet again you lost the whole plot of the tread
I proves I mixed up who i was replying to. The point still stands. it is not
a tangent. it arises directly in contradiction to a claim.
>
> >
> >[snip]
> > yes a Fine Irishman indeed.
> >[snip]
> >>
> >> >> while the rest of the country fought the great war.
> >Who is dividing the country now? I thought you claimed all Irish should
be
> >praised who fought? does that include Catholics from Kerry Dublin and
Cork?
>
> Don't snip half way through a relevant thread
[snip]
you stated REdmondites were a bad example...you claim some fought the
British and some fought in the war.
You divided them into two. Do you now run down those Redmondites that fought
in the War?
>
> >
> >> >
> >> >Rubbish! Most of the casulaties suffered by British Regiments were
from
> >the
> >> >22 counties
> >>
> >> Rubbish most of the casualties suffered by British Regiments were by
> >> British Ie English and Scottish regiments ,
> >
> >I referred to British regiments mustered in Ireland who fought in WWI in
> >flanders as distinct from Irish who joined French or American regiments.
>
> No you did not you referred to "British regiments" with no mention
> of where they were mustered, You can change your story now if you
> wish but that is not what you said please don't make yourself out to
> be a liar in this way you did say did you not................
>
> "Most of the casulaties suffered by British Regiments were from
> the 22 counties"
>
>
> >
> >>Where on earth did you
> >> get the notion that more people from the southern part of the Irish
> >> part of "Britain" died than from other parts of Britain
> >
> >I did NOT state that! dont build straw men.
>
> you did
> "Most of the casulaties suffered by British Regiments were from
> the 22 counties"
In reference to the Irish casualties in British regiments. As opposed to
Irish casualties in Irish Armies here or Irish in other armies in Europe or
elsewhere.
>
> Please stop proving you are a liar I'm sure you are not!! and a
> simple explanation that you lost the plot will explain it.
Still afraid to admit that MOST of the irish who died in WWI were Southern
Catholics?
>
> >
> >>
> >>
> >> >and NOT from the even the 9 Ulster Counties.
> >>
> >> Don't be silly
> >>[snip the straw man argument against a claim I DID NOT make.
> >
> >
> >> I could help you out by picking selective battles to make your claim
> >> true, but I shan't.
> >
> >Do not bother I did not claim it.
>
> you mean this claim that you wrote..........
> "Most of the casulaties suffered by British Regiments were from
> the 22 counties and NOT from the even the 9 Ulster Counties.
Yes I stated that. It is true. it refers to the 23 counties as opposed to
the 9 counties of ulster. Most of the casualties were Irish from the South.
Even more if you throw in Cavan Moneghabn and Donegal. It is quite clear
what I stated. I even clarified by stating 23/9 as opposed to 22/9.
Most Irish casualties were from the South. Do not try to build up another
straw man in that I claimed most casualties in WWI were Irish. Even a fool
would not try that. Now I note you do still not accept that MOST were
Southern Catholics.
>
> >>
> >>
> >> >>It is a pity that
> >> >> Ireland (ROI) does not give proper credit to those brave men that
> >> >> died during WWI.
> >> >
> >> >they do!
> >>
> >> In reality since when ?
> >
> >See below.
>
> Later maybe.... depends on your response to this I guess
> but the thread need split up a little now it is too long because
> you keep losing the plot.
I have made one error in attribution which I corrected and one error in
numbers which I also did.
Beacon
Straw man! Two wrongs do not make a right. I do not like the idea of "secret
states". Securocrats tend to act outside the law and to make up so called
"facts". Take the EVIDENCE for WMD. If they knew so well then where are
they?
Jochen Lueg
<Féach@d.óir> wrote:
> Not quite. Any Protestant who wishes can become a member of the
> Catholic Church, and qualify for membership of the above
> organisations.
That of course explains the extraordinary number of protestant popes that
pop up in history whenever you are not looking.
Jochen
--
-----------------------------------------------
Jochen Lueg joche...@freeuk.com
http://www.argonet.co.uk/users/tudor
Fin
"Féachadóir" <Féach@d.óir> wrote in message
news:4faijvop89g7079q9...@4ax.com...
> Scríobh Telmey®@myusual.com:
> >How many Protestants in the Christian Brothers
> >How many Protestants in Knights of St Columbanus
> >How many Protestants in Catholic Institute Athletic Club
> >How many Protestants in Legion of Mary
> >How many Protestants in Order of Malta
> >How many Protestants in St Vincent de Paul Society
> >How many Protestants in Apostolic Work
> >I'd guess about the same Catholics as in the OO
>
> Not quite. Any Protestant who wishes can become a member of the
> Catholic Church, and qualify for membership of the above
> membership.
>
You are of-course very wrong.
The stipulation for membership is the same whether you have two Catholic
parents, or an all Protestant family.
Fin
Beacon
"Jochen Lueg" <tu...@argonet.co.uk> wrote in message
news:4c21071...@argonet.co.uk...
> In article <4faijvop89g7079q9...@4ax.com>, Féachadóir
> <Féach@d.óir> wrote:
>
>
> > Not quite. Any Protestant who wishes can become a member of the
> > Catholic Church, and qualify for membership of the above
> > organisations.
>
> That of course explains the extraordinary number of protestant popes that
> pop up in history whenever you are not looking.
I suppose all the anti-popes could be considered Protestant. There were
quite a few. But Féachadoir is correct. furthermore a convent is not an
organisation with a controlling interest in the largest political party in
any State.
Beacon
"Fin" <Blu...@hotmail.com> wrote in message
news:bhcmvm$10c2pj$1...@ID-186569.news.uni-berlin.de...
As I originally asked. How many Catholics are members of the Orange Order?
Beacon
<not...@eircom.net> wrote in message
news:j7kgjvcolqhu3b3hd...@4ax.com...
> Nik <warre...@yahoo.co.nz> wrote;
> >On Mon, 11 Aug 2003 20:44:19 +0100, not...@eircom.net ( ) wrote:
> >
> >>"Beacon" <openm...@mydeja.com> wrote;
> >>>
> >>>"Beacon" <openm...@mydeja.com> wrote in message
> >>>news:p7MZa.26891$pK2....@news.indigo.ie...
> >>>[snip]
> >>>> Rubbish! Most of the casulaties suffered by British Regiments were
from
> >>>the
> >>>> 22 counties and NOT from the even the 9 Ulster Counties.
> >>>
> >>>Correction 23 counties not 22.
> >>
> >>I would not pull you for that it would be childish to do so ,
> >>but the point is you are dividing a country before it was divided
> >>In what can only be classed as a propaganda (yes it's me)
Well well Telmey and Harry Merrick are killfiled by me for refusing to
answer questions and calling me a liar when I support what I say. which one
are you. I noted like Telmey you post from ntl. I wondered how come you use
an eircom account to debate me?
I also note similaraties in the style of Merrick and Telmey i.e. throwing
out opinion and not having support; when asked direct questions switiching
the issue to a straw man argument; argument ad hominem; and when all else
fails there is the ad hominal attack on a minor point which was either a
clearly corrected error or a incomplete statement which has been clairified.
Do you think that changing to a another address will prevent you being
ignored?
Try answering some of my questions if you do not want to be killfiled again.
Beacon
<not...@eircom.net> wrote in message
news:j3sfjv0kik930u1u1...@4ax.com...
> "Beacon" <openm...@mydeja.com> wrote;
> >
> >"Beacon" <openm...@mydeja.com> wrote in message
> >news:p7MZa.26891$pK2....@news.indigo.ie...
> >[snip]
> >> Rubbish! Most of the casulaties suffered by British Regiments were from
> >the
> >> 22 counties and NOT from the even the 9 Ulster Counties.
> >
> >Correction 23 counties not 22.
>
> I would not pull you for that it would be childish to do so ,
And Later he goes on to pull me up on this on the concocted claim that I was
here stating most British Casualties in WWI were Irishmen. who is being
childish?
[snip]
> >>
> >> >It is long past time they recognised the
> >> > actions of her brave men who went to fight the real wars.
> >
> >Well you might begin by accepting that more from the South of ireland
died
> >in those wars than from the North. Do you recognise that?
No you have not yet have you. The Catholics that the army was concerned were
Sinn Fein supporters and who flew a green flag with a harp on the Front? Do
you commemerate them?
> >[snip]
>
> See above the country was one and romantic republican story
> telling cannot change that fact, so let me rephrase what you wrote
> Well you might begin by accepting that people from ireland died
> in those wars. (esp WWI) Do you recognise that? without the
> glorific republican propaganda spin that you tried to use.
Yes I do.! Do you recognise most of them were Catholics from the South?
Beacon
<not...@eircom.net> wrote in message
news:j7kgjvcolqhu3b3hd...@4ax.com...
> Nik <warre...@yahoo.co.nz> wrote;
[snip]
> >
> >Alright then, more Irish Catholics died in WWI than Irish Protestants.
Eventually! So you accept that more Catholics and more from the South died
for the British army than Protestants and Unionists from the North.
Thank you.
See it is called parity of esteem. Many of the Southerners were
Nationalists. If you despise them it is unfair to say they should not be
commemorated (even if they were a tiny minority of dead but in fact they
were the sizeable majority).
You may have heard of the "Hey Plan" and Anglo French plan to Contact the
Catholic Church and ask them to assist in the introduction of conscription
for the French and Irish armies? Like Home Rule it got the go ahead but was
never instituted. However much political effort was put into attracting
Catholics and heading off Nationalists for the War effort. and indeed the
Army was concerned that Irish troops might have low morale or might mutiny.
Just as in the Land War of the nineteenth century the officer class were
concerned that the working class and farm labourer soldiers in Ireland to
protect Captain Boycott and the like might rebel.
So you see it is not a simple case of "anyone who joins the British army is
a loyalist/royalist" There were even those who fought against King Billy who
fled to France and later became Officers in the British Army.
redhandluke
Republicans have continued in an attempt to prove state collusion.All that
has been proven is a tiny minority of individuals in the security forces
crossed the line when dealing with terrorists and used the same terrorist
methods to deal with their enemies.
>
> Nik
redhandluke
> >
> > Ahh the old "well we aint that bad, look at what the Brits do"apologist
> > speak from Republicans.You can justify anything can't you.Next you will
be
> > telling me the IRA were perfectly justified in murdering their way
though
> 30
> > odd years.
>
> Straw man! Two wrongs do not make a right. I do not like the idea of
"secret
> states". Securocrats tend to act outside the law and to make up so called
> "facts". Take the EVIDENCE for WMD. If they knew so well then where are
> they?
>
That's excatly the point i was making.I also do not like the idea of a
secret state,however the popular Republican propaganda viewpoint is that it
was going on with the active support of the goverment is wrong.It was not
and was never state sponsered killing.If it truely had of been the British
security services would have easily been able to deal with the upper section
of the militant Republican movement,ie cutting the head of the beast many
years ago.
Regards the issue of WMD,i await the out come of the inquiry.On a separate
note and considering your belief in state sponsered murder,do you believe
Billy Wright was murdered with the consent and help of the British
goverment?
redhandluke
> >
> >Right let me see Republicans have never carried out sectarian
murders?What
> >about Darkley?Enniskillen,the list is bloody endless.Don't try and tell
me
> >that Republicans are sectarian cause your talking out your arse.
>
> So any time that a person who is also Protestant died as a result of
> an IRA action, thats sectarian?
>
When the Republican movement attack a target exclusively made up of
Protestants that is a sectarian action.
> There are Catholics living in Enniskillen. I've got a Catholic friend
> living there...
Does he go with the other to the Poppy day service at the memorial?
>
> The point is, the IRA have never tried to bring down the Anglican/CoI,
> nor have they "fought for the Roman Catholic church". Their argument
> is NOT a religious argument, it is a political one.
The IRA attacked Protestants when it suited them,they are not some band of
freedom fighters.They are simply a band of terrorists exactly like the kind
that flew the planes into the WTC or the terrorists that exploded the Bali
bomb.Terrorists are terrorists the same the world over.They use the threat
of force and the act of murder to influence public opinion in the areas they
operate in an attempt to override legal democratic opinion.
>
> You've got a career in stand up comedy looming, I can see it.
>
> You made the claims, you support them.
>
You want me to back up claims that Republicans are sectarian?Need i list
countless atrocites?
> Nik
Beacon
"Féachadóir" <Féach@d.óir> wrote in message
> Scríobh "Fin" <Blu...@hotmail.com>:
> matter, isn't it?
Are they also silent on the Papal Blessing given to William III and the
Papal Unit in his army?
Beacon
"Féachadóir" <Féach@d.óir> wrote in message
> Scríobh Jochen Lueg <tu...@argonet.co.uk>:
> >In article <4faijvop89g7079q9...@4ax.com>, Féachadóir
> ><Féach@d.óir> wrote:
> >
> >
> >> Not quite. Any Protestant who wishes can become a member of the
> >> Catholic Church, and qualify for membership of the above
> >> organisations.
> >
> >That of course explains the extraordinary number of protestant popes that
> >pop up in history whenever you are not looking.
>
> one* Catholic can be pope at a time. How about a Protestant Cardinal?
> We even named a College after him.
>
>
> [*ignoring those awkward anti-popes of course]
>
But one does not even have to be a priest to be a Cardinal.
Beacon
>
>
> > >
> > >Right let me see Republicans have never carried out sectarian
> murders?What
> > >about Darkley?Enniskillen,the list is bloody endless.Don't try and tell
> me
> > >that Republicans are sectarian cause your talking out your arse.
> >
> > So any time that a person who is also Protestant died as a result of
> > an IRA action, thats sectarian?
> >
>
> When the Republican movement attack a target exclusively made up of
> Protestants that is a sectarian action.
Not necessarily. suppose the British Army only allowed Protestant Officers
and a grup attacked the Officers Mess. One culd claim that did not attack
them because of their religion but because of their political/military
affiliation. "Burn Protestants" is not a phrase I have headr Republicans
use.
>
>
> > There are Catholics living in Enniskillen. I've got a Catholic friend
> > living there...
>
> Does he go with the other to the Poppy day service at the memorial?
Bt are you concerened with intolerance or specific religions or
political/.military allegiances here?
>
> >
> > The point is, the IRA have never tried to bring down the Anglican/CoI,
> > nor have they "fought for the Roman Catholic church". Their argument
> > is NOT a religious argument, it is a political one.
>
> The IRA attacked Protestants when it suited them,
But the point is not BECAUSE thay were Protestants. Just like attacking an
officers mess who all just happened to be Protestants.
>they are not some band of
> freedom fighters.
I know. So what? the argument is not what they are but whether they had a
policy of targeting particular religions.
>They are simply a band of terrorists exactly like the kind
> that flew the planes into the WTC or the terrorists that exploded the Bali
> bomb.
But Al khyda were assisted by the west. as was Saddam. Britians friend.
remember? and how about the British support of Suharto's regime? Or Edi
Amin?
>Terrorists are terrorists the same the world over.They use the threat
> of force and the act of murder to influence public opinion in the areas
they
> operate in an attempt to override legal democratic opinion.
Would that include stitiching up the democratic process in Iraq?
>
> >
> > You've got a career in stand up comedy looming, I can see it.
> >
> > You made the claims, you support them.
> >
> You want me to back up claims that Republicans are sectarian?Need i list
> countless atrocites?
If you have an ability to list an infinite number I would like to witness
it. But you might just start with five (a small number considering your
claims of "countless" ) and show how they were specifically targeted at a
religious denomination.
Beacon
>
>
> > >
> > > Ahh the old "well we aint that bad, look at what the Brits
do"apologist
> > > speak from Republicans.You can justify anything can't you.Next you
will
> be
> > > telling me the IRA were perfectly justified in murdering their way
> though
> > 30
> > > odd years.
> >
> > Straw man! Two wrongs do not make a right. I do not like the idea of
> "secret
> > states". Securocrats tend to act outside the law and to make up so
called
> > "facts". Take the EVIDENCE for WMD. If they knew so well then where are
> > they?
> >
> That's excatly the point i was making.I also do not like the idea of a
> secret state,however the popular Republican propaganda viewpoint is that
it
> was going on with the active support of the goverment is wrong.It was not
> and was never state sponsered killing.
You have already admitted that elements of the State forces used methods
which terrorists used. this is a line the State SHOULD NOT cross!
What were the Cairo mob? Why do British hold as a hero a mysoginist with a
"Licence to Kill"?
>If it truely had of been the British
> security services would have easily been able to deal with the upper
section
> of the militant Republican movement,ie cutting the head of the beast many
> years ago.
So where have British Intellegence assisinated political opposition and
"terrorists" leaders in the past.
>
> Regards the issue of WMD,i await the out come of the inquiry.
Well I dont. when they said they had it I said "show it to me" I was told
"well it is secret" So now the War is over. Show me the Weapons which you
started the war for?
>On a separate
> note and considering your belief in state sponsered murder,do you believe
> Billy Wright was murdered with the consent and help of the British
> goverment?
I know little of the case so I plead ignorance. But I would think not. It
would not surprise me that the spooks were involved though.
redhandluke
>
> "redhandluke" <the...@orangehq.co.ie> wrote in message
> news:10607722...@ananke.eclipse.net.uk...
> >
> >
> > > >
> > > >Right let me see Republicans have never carried out sectarian
> > murders?What
> > > >about Darkley?Enniskillen,the list is bloody endless.Don't try and
tell
> > me
> > > >that Republicans are sectarian cause your talking out your arse.
> > >
> > > So any time that a person who is also Protestant died as a result of
> > > an IRA action, thats sectarian?
Not all attacks carried out by the Republican movement were directed at
Protestants alone.However it was part and parcel of the wider war to
intimidate the wider Protestant community.There is nothing the Republican
movement has done particully in recent times to secure the confidence of
Protestants.
> > >
> >
> > When the Republican movement attack a target exclusively made up of
> > Protestants that is a sectarian action.
>
> Not necessarily. suppose the British Army only allowed Protestant Officers
> and a grup attacked the Officers Mess. One culd claim that did not attack
> them because of their religion but because of their political/military
> affiliation. "Burn Protestants" is not a phrase I have headr Republicans
> use.
Now i know you don't truely believe that the wider Republican family do not
contain sectarian members.There have been numerous attacks on Protestants by
Republicans for many,many years.To say otherwise is quite rediculous.
> >
> >
> > > There are Catholics living in Enniskillen. I've got a Catholic friend
> > > living there...
> >
> > Does he go with the other to the Poppy day service at the memorial?
>
> Bt are you concerened with intolerance or specific religions or
> political/.military allegiances here?
One goes hand in hand with the other.The people that attended the
Inniskillen service for example included ordinary civilians including the
likes of the girl guides and boys brigade.The IRA knew this when they
attacked the service,they did'nt care.So much for the noble Republican
cause!
> > >
> > > The point is, the IRA have never tried to bring down the Anglican/CoI,
> > > nor have they "fought for the Roman Catholic church". Their argument
> > > is NOT a religious argument, it is a political one.
> >
> > The IRA attacked Protestants when it suited them,
>
> But the point is not BECAUSE thay were Protestants. Just like attacking an
> officers mess who all just happened to be Protestants.
Darkley,the La Mon,the Shankill road
bombing,Kingsmill,Tullyvallen,Teeban,the list is endless.Republicans do and
have attacked Protestants purely because of their religion.
>
> >they are not some band of
> > freedom fighters.
>
> I know. So what? the argument is not what they are but whether they had a
> policy of targeting particular religions.
The IRA are protrayed by Republicans as hero's and freedom fighers.However
they do consider Protestants to be targets when it suits them.
>
> >They are simply a band of terrorists exactly like the kind
> > that flew the planes into the WTC or the terrorists that exploded the
Bali
> > bomb.
>
> But Al khyda were assisted by the west. as was Saddam. Britians friend.
> remember? and how about the British support of Suharto's regime? Or Edi
> Amin?
There you go again,do you agree the IRA are just the same?A terrorist is the
same the world over.
>
> >Terrorists are terrorists the same the world over.They use the threat
> > of force and the act of murder to influence public opinion in the areas
> they
> > operate in an attempt to override legal democratic opinion.
>
> Would that include stitiching up the democratic process in Iraq?
Please stay with Northern Ireland,don't use other issues to cloud the
argument that the IRA are terrorists.
> > >
> > > You've got a career in stand up comedy looming, I can see it.
> > >
> > > You made the claims, you support them.
> > >
> > You want me to back up claims that Republicans are sectarian?Need i list
> > countless atrocites?
>
> If you have an ability to list an infinite number I would like to witness
> it. But you might just start with five (a small number considering your
> claims of "countless" ) and show how they were specifically targeted at a
> religious denomination.
Read upper portion.
>
>
>
redhandluke
Off course i agree with that point.However that is not a excuse for others
to justify terrorist murders.I have to say this,had it not been for the
activities of terrorists such a situation would never had existed.
>
> What were the Cairo mob? Why do British hold as a hero a mysoginist with a
> "Licence to Kill"?
Why use the actions of the British in previous years to justify terrorism?
>
> >If it truely had of been the British
> > security services would have easily been able to deal with the upper
> section
> > of the militant Republican movement,ie cutting the head of the beast
many
> > years ago.
>
> So where have British Intellegence assisinated political opposition and
> "terrorists" leaders in the past.
Jezz.....i don't think it would be too hard to find that evidence.What point
are you trying to make?
> >
> > Regards the issue of WMD,i await the out come of the inquiry.
>
> Well I dont. when they said they had it I said "show it to me" I was told
> "well it is secret" So now the War is over. Show me the Weapons which you
> started the war for?
We all wait with baited breath.
> >On a separate
> > note and considering your belief in state sponsered murder,do you
believe
> > Billy Wright was murdered with the consent and help of the British
> > goverment?
>
> I know little of the case so I plead ignorance. But I would think not. It
> would not surprise me that the spooks were involved though.
So how exactly are you blaming for colusion?The goverment or MI5/6?
>
bro
>
> "redhandluke" <the...@orangehq.co.ie> wrote in message
> news:10607722...@ananke.eclipse.net.uk...
> >
> >
> > > >
> > > >Right let me see Republicans have never carried out sectarian
> > murders?What
> > > >about Darkley?Enniskillen,the list is bloody endless.Don't try and
tell
> > me
> > > >that Republicans are sectarian cause your talking out your arse.
> > >
> > > So any time that a person who is also Protestant died as a result of
> > > an IRA action, thats sectarian?
> > >
> >
> > When the Republican movement attack a target exclusively made up of
> > Protestants that is a sectarian action.
>
> Not necessarily. suppose the British Army only allowed Protestant Officers
> and a grup attacked the Officers Mess. One culd claim that did not attack
> them because of their religion but because of their political/military
you can't have it both ways. the republican movement can't claim on the one
hand that the police are a protestant-dominated force, and on the other
claim that attacks on them are not sectarian.
> affiliation. "Burn Protestants" is not a phrase I have headr Republicans
> use.
actions speak louder than words. there were thousands of attacks on
protestant communities, for no other reason that they were protestant.
attacks on town centres, army barracks and police stations also took into
account their location. i don't know the figures, but i suspect the ratio of
large bomb attacks on the commercial centre of portadown for example (not a
security target) against the number of similar bombs in lurgan a few miles
away is something like 20:1. guess which one is a majority protestant town.
examples like that stand out all over northern ireland.
the omagh bomb stands out particularly, not just because so many people were
killed, but because it's a majority catholic town, generally (but certainly
not always) left alone by republicans when it came to bombings that put the
local population at severe risk.
bro
Fin
None, how many Protestant are members of the Catholic Church? answer none,
once you become a member of any religion you are consumed by that religion,
why else would you attend mass on a regular basis unless you were a
Catholic.
You have cleverly put across the question, you should have asked, how many
former Catholics are members of the OO which is completely different, and
not scratching thin air to make the OO something its not.
Fin
Fin
"Féachadóir" <Féach@d.óir> wrote in message
> Scríobh "Fin" <Blu...@hotmail.com>:
Oh, lets offer up websites to back up our arguments, but why does silence
prove your point?
Well I happen to be a member of the OO so I can tell you that former
Catholics are not discriminated against, and their pending membership is
treated the same way as mine was.
Fin
Fin
You perhaps think that OO people are ashamed of this fact?
But many of us know our own history and why the Pope gave him his blessing,
its funnier how the Pope gave William the III his blessing for civil and
religious liberties for all, and yet some people can't stand the sight or
thought of him.
Fin
Nik
>Scríobh "Beacon" <openm...@mydeja.com>:
>*Any* Catholic can become Pope, if the Holy Spirit so moves the
>College
Even naughty Fenian ex-Catholics?
<hopeful look>
Nik
Nik
Tell us that number if you will be so kind.
Nik
Nik
>Scríobh "Fin" <Blu...@hotmail.com>:
>>Well I happen to be a member of the OO so I can tell you that former
>>Catholics are not discriminated against, and their pending membership is
>>treated the same way as mine was.
>
>Cool. Can I join?
Me too?
Nik
Nik
<the...@orangehq.co.ie> wrote:
>
>
>> >
>> >Right let me see Republicans have never carried out sectarian
>murders?What
>> >about Darkley?Enniskillen,the list is bloody endless.Don't try and tell
>me
>> >that Republicans are sectarian cause your talking out your arse.
>>
>> So any time that a person who is also Protestant died as a result of
>> an IRA action, thats sectarian?
>
>When the Republican movement attack a target exclusively made up of
>Protestants that is a sectarian action.
That the victims of the IRA have been at times, Protestant, doesn't
indicate that they were attacking Protestants BECAUSE they were
Protestant.
When the Police, not now but in the past, has a 96% Protestant
workforce and they're attacked, obviously it is likely to be a 96%
Protestant target...that does NOT make it sectarian.
Wasn't it yourself that was going on about the highest % of IRA
victims actually being Catholic?
Can't have it both ways...
The IRA is NOT the defender of the Catholic church.
>> There are Catholics living in Enniskillen. I've got a Catholic friend
>> living there...
>
>Does he go with the other to the Poppy day service at the memorial?
>
>>
>> The point is, the IRA have never tried to bring down the Anglican/CoI,
>> nor have they "fought for the Roman Catholic church". Their argument
>> is NOT a religious argument, it is a political one.
>
>The IRA attacked Protestants when it suited them,they are not some band of
>freedom fighters.
That does not follow from the idea that "the IRA attacks Protestants
when it suits them"...
>They are simply a band of terrorists exactly like the kind
>that flew the planes into the WTC or the terrorists that exploded the Bali
>bomb.
They're not Islamic for a start, so they aren't exactly the same now
are they?
>Terrorists are terrorists the same the world over.They use the threat
>of force and the act of murder to influence public opinion in the areas they
>operate in an attempt to override legal democratic opinion.
Did the RAF use the threat of force and the act of murder to influence
public opinion in Dresden?
>> You've got a career in stand up comedy looming, I can see it.
>>
>> You made the claims, you support them.
>>
>You want me to back up claims that Republicans are sectarian?Need i list
>countless atrocites?
Go on, remember that the likes of Lenny Murphy wasn't shy of shooting
up a few Protestants when it suited him, and the numerous feuds
between the UVF and the UDA...
Who was it that had John Gregg killed? Was it a Catholic?
Nik
Nik
<the...@orangehq.co.ie> wrote:
>
>"Beacon" <openm...@mydeja.com> wrote in message
>news:Klq_a.27222$pK2....@news.indigo.ie...
>>
>> "redhandluke" <the...@orangehq.co.ie> wrote in message
>> news:10607722...@ananke.eclipse.net.uk...
>> >
>> >
>> > > >
>> > > >Right let me see Republicans have never carried out sectarian
>> > murders?What
>> > > >about Darkley?Enniskillen,the list is bloody endless.Don't try and
>tell
>> > me
>> > > >that Republicans are sectarian cause your talking out your arse.
>> > >
>> > > So any time that a person who is also Protestant died as a result of
>> > > an IRA action, thats sectarian?
>
>Not all attacks carried out by the Republican movement were directed at
>Protestants alone.However it was part and parcel of the wider war to
>intimidate the wider Protestant community.There is nothing the Republican
>movement has done particully in recent times to secure the confidence of
>Protestants.
Signing the GFA...<Nik wonders what exactly would serve to secure the
confidence of Protestants>...
>> > When the Republican movement attack a target exclusively made up of
>> > Protestants that is a sectarian action.
>>
>> Not necessarily. suppose the British Army only allowed Protestant Officers
>> and a grup attacked the Officers Mess. One culd claim that did not attack
>> them because of their religion but because of their political/military
>> affiliation. "Burn Protestants" is not a phrase I have headr Republicans
>> use.
>
>Now i know you don't truely believe that the wider Republican family do not
>contain sectarian members.There have been numerous attacks on Protestants by
>Republicans for many,many years.To say otherwise is quite rediculous.
Proof please.
>> > > There are Catholics living in Enniskillen. I've got a Catholic friend
>> > > living there...
>> >
>> > Does he go with the other to the Poppy day service at the memorial?
She, you sexist. I don't know whether she goes or not.
>> Bt are you concerened with intolerance or specific religions or
>> political/.military allegiances here?
>
>One goes hand in hand with the other.
For you and your lot yes but not for the Republican movement.
What you're doing is called projection...projecting your own
inadequacies onto other people, i.e. the Republican movement.
>The people that attended the
>Inniskillen service for example included ordinary civilians including the
>likes of the girl guides and boys brigade.The IRA knew this when they
>attacked the service,they did'nt care.So much for the noble Republican
>cause!
Myself, I regard the Enniskillen bomb as a regrettable mistake.
>> > > The point is, the IRA have never tried to bring down the Anglican/CoI,
>> > > nor have they "fought for the Roman Catholic church". Their argument
>> > > is NOT a religious argument, it is a political one.
>> >
>> > The IRA attacked Protestants when it suited them,
>>
>> But the point is not BECAUSE thay were Protestants. Just like attacking an
>> officers mess who all just happened to be Protestants.
>
>Darkley,the La Mon,the Shankill road
>bombing,Kingsmill,Tullyvallen,Teeban,the list is endless.Republicans do and
>have attacked Protestants purely because of their religion.
Thats what you imagine to be the case but if you can find any
reference to a theological argument anywhere in Republican literature,
which there would be if your assertion was accurate, that supports the
idea that the IRA are defenders of the Catholic faith...
There's no-one at the interface areas claiming that the Communion
wafer transubstantiates at the moment of consecration....
>> >they are not some band of
>> > freedom fighters.
>>
>> I know. So what? the argument is not what they are but whether they had a
>> policy of targeting particular religions.
>
>The IRA are protrayed by Republicans as hero's and freedom fighers.However
>they do consider Protestants to be targets when it suits them.
The "Protestant" bit is coincidental. There have been Protestant
members of the IRA.
>> >They are simply a band of terrorists exactly like the kind
>> > that flew the planes into the WTC or the terrorists that exploded the
>Bali bomb.
>>
>> But Al khyda were assisted by the west. as was Saddam. Britians friend.
>> remember? and how about the British support of Suharto's regime? Or Edi
>> Amin?
>
>There you go again,do you agree the IRA are just the same?A terrorist is the
>same the world over.
Whoooosh....Britain has supported people who are now regarded as
"terrorists"....hypocritical...
>> >Terrorists are terrorists the same the world over.They use the threat
>> > of force and the act of murder to influence public opinion in the areas
>> they
>> > operate in an attempt to override legal democratic opinion.
>>
>> Would that include stitiching up the democratic process in Iraq?
>
>Please stay with Northern Ireland,don't use other issues to cloud the
>argument that the IRA are terrorists.
You were the one who bought up the rest of the world...here, I'll
quote you from above:
"
>> >They are simply a band of terrorists exactly like the kind
>> > that flew the planes into the WTC or the terrorists that exploded the
>Bali bomb."
Nik
Nik
<the...@orangehq.co.ie> wrote:
Thatcher had a particular interest in the activities of the BA
FRU...that which can be proven to the degree required in a court of
law isn't necessarily the whole story/entire truth...you know it.
Nik
Nik
<the...@orangehq.co.ie> wrote:
<cut>
>On a separate
>note and considering your belief in state sponsered murder,do you believe
>Billy Wright was murdered with the consent and help of the British
>goverment?
I doubt that very much. Do you have reason to believe othewise?
If so, lets hear it...
Nik
Nik
<the...@orangehq.co.ie> wrote:
>
>"Beacon" <openm...@mydeja.com> wrote in message
>news:Jrq_a.27224$pK2....@news.indigo.ie...
>>
>> "redhandluke" <the...@orangehq.co.ie> wrote in message
>> news:10607717...@ananke.eclipse.net.uk...
<cut>
>> >On a separate
>> > note and considering your belief in state sponsered murder,do you
>believe
>> > Billy Wright was murdered with the consent and help of the British
>> > goverment?
>>
>> I know little of the case so I plead ignorance. But I would think not. It
>> would not surprise me that the spooks were involved though.
>
>So how exactly are you blaming for colusion?The goverment or MI5/6?
Your logical reasoning skills are pisspoor...Beacon wasn't claiming to
*know* that there was any sort of collusion in the death of Billy
Wright but that it wouldn't suprise him if there was.
Big difference.
Nik
Steve
"Féachadóir" <Féach@d.óir> wrote in message
news:4faijvop89g7079q9...@4ax.com...
> Scríobh Telmey®@myusual.com:
> >How many Protestants in the Christian Brothers
> >How many Protestants in Knights of St Columbanus
> >How many Protestants in Catholic Institute Athletic Club
> >How many Protestants in Legion of Mary
> >How many Protestants in Order of Malta
> >How many Protestants in St Vincent de Paul Society
> >How many Protestants in Apostolic Work
> >I'd guess about the same Catholics as in the OO
>
> Not quite. Any Protestant who wishes can become a member of the
> Catholic Church, and qualify for membership of the above
> organisations. Even having a Catholic father disqualifies you from OO
> membership.
>
Write to Dominic Di Stasi, onetime Grand Master in Canada - that
disqualification will be news to him.
--
Steve
Beacon
Caanging the premise does not help - the OO are a political organisation as
well.
> once you become a member of any religion you are consumed by that
religion,
> why else would you attend mass on a regular basis unless you were a
> Catholic.
Going to any religious service does not necessarily stipulate a political
thesis.
Beacon
I hope you do not include me in that "some people". do you?
Beacon
"Steve" <SteveJ...@boobah.plus.com> wrote in message
news:sLz_a.3330$z7.5...@wards.force9.net...
Can we call it the SCI Lodge?
Beacon
Because and only because they were Protestants? As you claim they were
numerous care to list three of these attacks please?
>
> > >
> > >
> > > > There are Catholics living in Enniskillen. I've got a Catholic
friend
> > > > living there...
> > >
> > > Does he go with the other to the Poppy day service at the memorial?
> >
> > Bt are you concerened with intolerance or specific religions or
> > political/.military allegiances here?
>
> One goes hand in hand with the other.The people that attended the
> Inniskillen service for example included ordinary civilians including the
> likes of the girl guides and boys brigade.The IRA knew this when they
> attacked the service,they did'nt care.So much for the noble Republican
> cause!
I do not justify such attacks. I ask if the attacks were directed against
Protestants?
>
> > > >
> > > > The point is, the IRA have never tried to bring down the
Anglican/CoI,
> > > > nor have they "fought for the Roman Catholic church". Their argument
> > > > is NOT a religious argument, it is a political one.
> > >
> > > The IRA attacked Protestants when it suited them,
> >
> > But the point is not BECAUSE thay were Protestants. Just like attacking
an
> > officers mess who all just happened to be Protestants.
>
> Darkley,the La Mon,the Shankill road
> bombing,Kingsmill,Tullyvallen,Teeban,the list is endless.Republicans do
and
> have attacked Protestants purely because of their religion.
>
> >
> > >they are not some band of
> > > freedom fighters.
> >
> > I know. So what? the argument is not what they are but whether they had
a
> > policy of targeting particular religions.
>
> The IRA are protrayed by Republicans as hero's and freedom fighers.However
> they do consider Protestants to be targets when it suits them.
i am a rRepublican. The IRA do not represent me. Sinn Fein represent only
about five per cent of the vote in the RoI.
>
> >
> > >They are simply a band of terrorists exactly like the kind
> > > that flew the planes into the WTC or the terrorists that exploded the
> Bali
> > > bomb.
> >
> > But Al khyda were assisted by the west. as was Saddam. Britians friend.
> > remember? and how about the British support of Suharto's regime? Or Edi
> > Amin?
>
> There you go again,do you agree the IRA are just the same?A terrorist is
the
> same the world over.
I do not support the IRA. But the State can not adopt the tactics that
terrorists do.
>
> >
> > >Terrorists are terrorists the same the world over.They use the threat
> > > of force and the act of murder to influence public opinion in the
areas
> > they
> > > operate in an attempt to override legal democratic opinion.
> >
> > Would that include stitiching up the democratic process in Iraq?
>
> Please stay with Northern Ireland,don't use other issues to cloud the
> argument that the IRA are terrorists.
You raised the point that "terrorists are terrorists THE WORLD OVER" not me.
Do not accuse me then of not sticking with the issue since YOU raised the
point about the rest of the world.
>
> > > >
> > > > You've got a career in stand up comedy looming, I can see it.
> > > >
> > > > You made the claims, you support them.
> > > >
> > > You want me to back up claims that Republicans are sectarian?Need i
list
> > > countless atrocites?
> >
> > If you have an ability to list an infinite number I would like to
witness
> > it. But you might just start with five (a small number considering your
> > claims of "countless" ) and show how they were specifically targeted at
a
> > religious denomination.
>
> Read upper portion.
thank you for that. I will look into them.
Beacon
"Féachadóir" <Féach@d.óir> wrote in message
> Scríobh "Beacon" <openm...@mydeja.com>:
> >
> >"redhandluke" <the...@orangehq.co.ie> wrote in message
> >news:10607722...@ananke.eclipse.net.uk...
> >>
> >>
> >> > >
> >> > >Right let me see Republicans have never carried out sectarian
> >> murders?What
> >> > >about Darkley?Enniskillen,the list is bloody endless.Don't try and
tell
> >> me
> >> > >that Republicans are sectarian cause your talking out your arse.
> >> >
> >> > So any time that a person who is also Protestant died as a result of
> >> > an IRA action, thats sectarian?
> >> >
> >>
> >> When the Republican movement attack a target exclusively made up of
> >> Protestants that is a sectarian action.
> >
> >Not necessarily. suppose the British Army only allowed Protestant
Officers
> >and a grup attacked the Officers Mess.
>
> military targets. They were civilian targets, chosen because they were
> Protestant.
>
> >One culd claim that did not attack
> >them because of their religion but because of their political/military
> >affiliation. "Burn Protestants" is not a phrase I have headr Republicans
> >use.
>
> bombs.
Of IRA bombs? I do not support the IRA. And I am a Republican. The IRA do
not represent Republicans.
>
> >> > There are Catholics living in Enniskillen. I've got a Catholic friend
> >> > living there...
> >>
> >> Does he go with the other to the Poppy day service at the memorial?
> >
> >Bt are you concerened with intolerance or specific religions or
> >political/.military allegiances here?
>
> Why not just go explain it to the surviving members of the Wilson
> family? I'm sure it'll make the surviving members feel much better.
Gordon Wilson made it quite clear what he felt about the IRA.
>
> >> > The point is, the IRA have never tried to bring down the
Anglican/CoI,
> >> > nor have they "fought for the Roman Catholic church". Their argument
> >> > is NOT a religious argument, it is a political one.
> >>
> >> The IRA attacked Protestants when it suited them,
> >
> >But the point is not BECAUSE thay were Protestants. Just like attacking
an
> >officers mess who all just happened to be Protestants.
>
> Try not to move those goalposts, there's a good lad. Darkley was not
> an officers mess.
I do not support such methods. If the IRA targeted people because they were
Protestants then I condemn that.
>
> [...]
> >> You want me to back up claims that Republicans are sectarian?Need i
list
> >> countless atrocites?
> >
> >If you have an ability to list an infinite number I would like to witness
> >it. But you might just start with five (a small number considering your
> >claims of "countless" ) and show how they were specifically targeted at a
> >religious denomination.
>
> Darkley: Attack on Protestant gospel hall
Secterian
> Enniskillen: Attack on Protestant dominated commemoration ceremony
i.e not all Protestant
> Kingsmills: Protestant workers identified and shot
Secterian certainly then
> Tullyvallen: attack on Orange hall
Political group
> Teebane: Attack on Protestant workers
Because they were Protestant? If so then secterian.
Beacon
>However
here it is
>that is not a excuse for others
> to justify terrorist murders.
I didnt justify terrorist murders.
>I have to say this,had it not been for the
> activities of terrorists such a situation would never had existed.
Now who is justifying terrorist tactics having just agreed that tit for tat
actions by the state are wrong?
>
>
> >
> > What were the Cairo mob? Why do British hold as a hero a mysoginist with
a
> > "Licence to Kill"?
>
> Why use the actions of the British in previous years to justify terrorism?
they dont. The point is that the British State forces can not use the same
tactics. Two wrongs do not made a right.
>
> >
> > >If it truely had of been the British
> > > security services would have easily been able to deal with the upper
> > section
> > > of the militant Republican movement,ie cutting the head of the beast
> many
> > > years ago.
> >
> > So where have British Intellegence assisinated political opposition and
> > "terrorists" leaders in the past.
>
> Jezz.....i don't think it would be too hard to find that evidence.What
point
> are you trying to make?
That it is wrong for the State to employ the tactics of terrorists and
behave as terrorists do.
>
> > >
> > > Regards the issue of WMD,i await the out come of the inquiry.
> >
> > Well I dont. when they said they had it I said "show it to me" I was
told
> > "well it is secret" So now the War is over. Show me the Weapons which
you
> > started the war for?
>
> We all wait with baited breath.
I waited then and i believe I will never see it now. The difference now is
the war already happened. and for no reason except the fear and "loads of
evidence" you were promised.
>
> > >On a separate
> > > note and considering your belief in state sponsered murder,do you
> believe
> > > Billy Wright was murdered with the consent and help of the British
> > > goverment?
> >
> > I know little of the case so I plead ignorance. But I would think not.
It
> > would not surprise me that the spooks were involved though.
>
> So how exactly are you blaming for colusion?The goverment or MI5/6?
I am not blaming anyone without evidence.
Steve
>
> "Fin" <Blu...@hotmail.com> wrote in message
> news:bhdqp9$115653$1...@ID-186569.news.uni-berlin.de...
> >
> > "Beacon" <openm...@mydeja.com> wrote in message
> > news:1ao_a.27206$pK2....@news.indigo.ie...
snipped
> > >
> > >
> > > As I originally asked. How many Catholics are members of the Orange
> Order?
> > >
> >
> > None, how many Protestant are members of the Catholic Church? answer
none,
>
> Caanging the premise does not help - the OO are a political organisation
as
> well.
>
And Churches, whether Catholic, Protestant &c, don't interfere in political
matters?
--
Steve
redhandluke
+Darkley(attack on Protestant worshippers),Kingsmill,(attack on Protestant
workers,catholic singled out and set free unharmed),Tullyvallen(attack on
Protestant Orangemen leaving five murdered)
> >
> > > >
> > > >
> > > > > There are Catholics living in Enniskillen. I've got a Catholic
> friend
> > > > > living there...
> > > >
> > > > Does he go with the other to the Poppy day service at the memorial?
> > >
> > > Bt are you concerened with intolerance or specific religions or
> > > political/.military allegiances here?
> >
> > One goes hand in hand with the other.The people that attended the
> > Inniskillen service for example included ordinary civilians including
the
> > likes of the girl guides and boys brigade.The IRA knew this when they
> > attacked the service,they did'nt care.So much for the noble Republican
> > cause!
>
> I do not justify such attacks. I ask if the attacks were directed against
> Protestants?
Then who the hell were they aimed at?Did the bombers give a shit about the
others in attendance?The bombers knew full well that the poeple attending
would have been 99% Protestant,they did'nt give a shit!
It does'nt change the fact that the IRA are a bunch of blood thirsty
terrorists.
> >
> > >
> > > >They are simply a band of terrorists exactly like the kind
> > > > that flew the planes into the WTC or the terrorists that exploded
the
> > Bali
> > > > bomb.
> > >
> > > But Al khyda were assisted by the west. as was Saddam. Britians
friend.
> > > remember? and how about the British support of Suharto's regime? Or
Edi
> > > Amin?
> >
> > There you go again,do you agree the IRA are just the same?A terrorist is
> the
> > same the world over.
>
> I do not support the IRA. But the State can not adopt the tactics that
> terrorists do.
Agreed.However two wrongs do not make a right.
> >
> > >
> > > >Terrorists are terrorists the same the world over.They use the threat
> > > > of force and the act of murder to influence public opinion in the
> areas
> > > they
> > > > operate in an attempt to override legal democratic opinion.
> > >
> > > Would that include stitiching up the democratic process in Iraq?
> >
> > Please stay with Northern Ireland,don't use other issues to cloud the
> > argument that the IRA are terrorists.
>
> You raised the point that "terrorists are terrorists THE WORLD OVER" not
me.
> Do not accuse me then of not sticking with the issue since YOU raised the
> point about the rest of the world.
Now what are you taking about terrorism in Iraq for?Do you agree that the
IRA are terrorists?
redhandluke
> On Wed, 13 Aug 2003 11:57:09 +0100, "redhandluke"
> <the...@orangehq.co.ie> wrote:
>
> >
> >
> >> >
> >> >Right let me see Republicans have never carried out sectarian
> >murders?What
> >> >about Darkley?Enniskillen,the list is bloody endless.Don't try and
tell
> >me
> >> >that Republicans are sectarian cause your talking out your arse.
> >>
> >> So any time that a person who is also Protestant died as a result of
> >> an IRA action, thats sectarian?
> >
> >When the Republican movement attack a target exclusively made up of
> >Protestants that is a sectarian action.
>
> That the victims of the IRA have been at times, Protestant, doesn't
> indicate that they were attacking Protestants BECAUSE they were
> Protestant.
They attacked Protestants and Protestant towns as a matter of fact!
>
> When the Police, not now but in the past, has a 96% Protestant
> workforce and they're attacked, obviously it is likely to be a 96%
> Protestant target...that does NOT make it sectarian.
I can understand why terrorists would attack policemen,i can't understand
why the same terrorists would attack Protestants unless it was as i know a
sectarian organisation.
>
> Wasn't it yourself that was going on about the highest % of IRA
> victims actually being Catholic?
>
> Can't have it both ways...
I don't want it both ways.The IRA targeted Protestants in an attempt to
intimidate them out of N.I and local towns.
>
> The IRA is NOT the defender of the Catholic church.
So,Loyalist paramiltaires are no protectors of the Protestant churches.
>
> >> There are Catholics living in Enniskillen. I've got a Catholic friend
> >> living there...
> >
> >Does he go with the other to the Poppy day service at the memorial?
> >
> >>
> >> The point is, the IRA have never tried to bring down the Anglican/CoI,
> >> nor have they "fought for the Roman Catholic church". Their argument
> >> is NOT a religious argument, it is a political one.
> >
> >The IRA attacked Protestants when it suited them,they are not some band
of
> >freedom fighters.
>
> That does not follow from the idea that "the IRA attacks Protestants
> when it suits them"...
Why not?They quite obviously attack Protestants in a attempt to intimidate
them,thats what terrorists do.
>
> >They are simply a band of terrorists exactly like the kind
> >that flew the planes into the WTC or the terrorists that exploded the
Bali
> >bomb.
>
> They're not Islamic for a start, so they aren't exactly the same now
> are they?
Acting stupid does'nt suit you Nik.
>
> >Terrorists are terrorists the same the world over.They use the threat
> >of force and the act of murder to influence public opinion in the areas
they
> >operate in an attempt to override legal democratic opinion.
>
> Did the RAF use the threat of force and the act of murder to influence
> public opinion in Dresden?
>
Did Nazi Germany gas the Jews to curry favour?Your support for the Germans
is of no surprise.
> >> You've got a career in stand up comedy looming, I can see it.
> >>
> >> You made the claims, you support them.
> >>
> >You want me to back up claims that Republicans are sectarian?Need i list
> >countless atrocites?
>
> Go on, remember that the likes of Lenny Murphy wasn't shy of shooting
> up a few Protestants when it suited him, and the numerous feuds
> between the UVF and the UDA...
You just menchioned that the IRA killed more Catholics than prods so don't
start that bullshit again.
>
> Who was it that had John Gregg killed? Was it a Catholic?
I don't know who killed Gregg,do you?Do you know who murdered the
Protestants in Darkley?
>
> Nik
redhandluke
> >>
> >> If you want to bury your head in the sand and pretend its not
> >> happening, well, there's nothing I can do. Its as plain as day.
> >
> >Republicans have continued in an attempt to prove state collusion.All
that
> >has been proven is a tiny minority of individuals in the security forces
> >crossed the line when dealing with terrorists and used the same terrorist
> >methods to deal with their enemies.
>
> Thatcher had a particular interest in the activities of the BA
> FRU...that which can be proven to the degree required in a court of
> law isn't necessarily the whole story/entire truth...you know it.
>
Nothing that has been brought up in the Stevens inquiry has ever suggested
goverment involvement in collusion.If you have evidence to the contary
please email it to the Stevens team.
> Nik