Re: Irish Citizenship referendum passes with overwhelming majority
OldWiseMan
"Whitewolf" <r...@eirefirst.com> wrote in message
news:e65uc05vc8i0959qi...@4ax.com...
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> The citizenship referendum has been passed with a resounding four to
> one majority.
Ray,
Do you *really* think that there is anyone on SCI who is not already aware
of this?
Tom Walsh
> Do you *really* think that there is anyone on SCI who is not already aware
> of this?
We might have missed it in the deluge of posts about US politics
and putting the Gipper on the dime. Ray is just trying to
compensate.
Tom
Whitewolf
Hash: SHA1
I posted the result to get them "on the record" as it were on
Usenet/SCI
Anyway... I know you were on the fence a little about the vote...
How did you vote in the end and are you happy with the result?
BTW, did you ever get my email explaining the "RN posts"?
Ray
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--
~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~
"Everyone, Republican or otherwise has their own
particular part to play. No part is too great or too
small, no one is too old or too young to do something."
Bobby Sands (1954-1981), on hunger strike in 1981
Email: ray-AT-eirefirst.com
Website: http://www.eirefirst.com
~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~
OldWiseMan
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I ended up voting no - reasons given in a thread started by me - and Idon't
mind the result as such, but it bugs me the way it is being used in some of
the media to present Ireland as a racist country
Whitewolf
Hash: SHA1
On Tue, 15 Jun 2004 18:44:46 +0100, "OldWiseMan"
<oldwis...@hotmail.com> wrote:
>
>"Whitewolf" <r...@eirefirst.com> wrote in message
>news:d09uc01u2fn2d447f...@4ax.com...
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>I ended up voting no - reasons given in a thread started by me -
I saw that you were besieged by liberal/leftists "no" voters... I'd
hoped you'd seen through their bullshit and voted yes in the TRUE
interest of Ireland... alas not... But it passed nevertheless...
> and Idon't
>mind the result as such, but it bugs me the way it is being used in
some of
>the media to present Ireland as a racist country
>
That would be the leftist/immigrants are better then us anyway/I'm so
left I can't even spell rihgt brigade... sad bastards! Denying
reality and trying to accuse 80% of the population of being racist...
Poor sad bastards...
Ray
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OldWiseMan
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> I saw that you were besieged by liberal/leftists "no" voters... I'd
> hoped you'd seen through their bullshit and voted yes in the TRUE
> interest of Ireland... alas not... But it passed nevertheless...
>
It was nothing to do with liberal/leftists - didn't you read the reasons I
gave?
Gerry Doyle
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> On Tue, 15 Jun 2004 18:44:46 +0100, "OldWiseMan"
> <oldwis...@hotmail.com> wrote:
>
> >
> >"Whitewolf" <r...@eirefirst.com> wrote in message
> >news:d09uc01u2fn2d447f...@4ax.com...
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> >
> >I ended up voting no - reasons given in a thread started by me -
>
> I saw that you were besieged by liberal/leftists "no" voters...
It's called a debate. It's where people have opinions and argue them with
each other, cutting and pasting just doesn't work, maybe that's why you had
nothing to say?
I'd
> hoped you'd seen through their bullshit and voted yes in the TRUE
> interest of Ireland... alas not... But it passed nevertheless...
Despite something like 70% of those polled admitting that they hadn't a clue
about the issues.
> > and Idon't
> >mind the result as such, but it bugs me the way it is being used in
> some of
> >the media to present Ireland as a racist country
> >
> That would be the leftist/immigrants are better then us anyway/I'm so
> left I can't even spell rihgt brigade...
There's something about the word 'spell' that just puts a spell on you,
isn't there? Actually, as we have seen in this newsgroup already, it's the
right-wing that's doing all the crowing about wonderfully racist Ireland.
sad bastards! Denying
> reality and trying to accuse 80% of the population of being racist...
Says who?
Race isn't the issue here, it's about removing a constitutional right, where
else has that ever happened? It certainly wouldn't happen in the USA where
the automatic birthright to citizenship has existed for over 200 years now.
> Poor sad bastards...
Sad, yes, but not the way you think.
G
FreeIreland
> "Whitewolf" <r...@eirefirst.com> wrote in message
> news:siguc0h729thls38m...@4ax.com...
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> > On Tue, 15 Jun 2004 18:44:46 +0100, "OldWiseMan"
> > <oldwis...@hotmail.com> wrote:
> >
> > >
> > >"Whitewolf" <r...@eirefirst.com> wrote in message
> > >news:d09uc01u2fn2d447f...@4ax.com...
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> > >
> > >I ended up voting no - reasons given in a thread started by me -
> >
> > I saw that you were besieged by liberal/leftists "no" voters...
>
> It's called a debate. It's where people have opinions and argue them with
> each other, cutting and pasting just doesn't work, maybe that's why you had
> nothing to say?
>
> I'd
> > hoped you'd seen through their bullshit and voted yes in the TRUE
> > interest of Ireland... alas not... But it passed nevertheless...
>
> Despite something like 70% of those polled admitting that they hadn't a clue
> about the issues.
This is the real problem with this issue, their was no public debate
and this issue is being used to portry Ireland as a racist country.
Its fair enough to say vote yes but there was never any reason given
as too why? You see this change will not halt imigration (Immigration
is good for Ireland no politican will argue against that), its just
another restriction on claiming Irish nationality. I noticed many
conservative Irish Americans calling for a yes vote without any
reasoning. The question I would ask them is to consider why a
conservative republican President is talking about giving an estimated
11 million immigrants at least a limited citizenship.
>
> > > and Idon't
> > >mind the result as such, but it bugs me the way it is being used in
> some of
> > >the media to present Ireland as a racist country
> > >
> > That would be the leftist/immigrants are better then us anyway/I'm so
> > left I can't even spell rihgt brigade...
>
> There's something about the word 'spell' that just puts a spell on you,
> isn't there? Actually, as we have seen in this newsgroup already, it's the
> right-wing that's doing all the crowing about wonderfully racist Ireland.
>
> sad bastards! Denying
> > reality and trying to accuse 80% of the population of being racist...
>
> Says who?
>
> Race isn't the issue here, it's about removing a constitutional right, where
> else has that ever happened? It certainly wouldn't happen in the USA where
> the automatic birthright to citizenship has existed for over 200 years now.
>
> > Poor sad bastards...
>
> Sad, yes, but not the way you think.
Yes the truth is this result takes us out of line with the US and most
of Europe.
>
> G
Cat
"OldWiseMan" <oldwis...@hotmail.com> wrote in message
news:2j94apF...@uni-berlin.de...
The reasons you gave do not fit into Ray's neat little preconception boxes.
The fact that you sought out the views of others to help you make a decision
does not register with him either. It fits much better in his little scheme
that you were "besieged" by a mob of bleeding heart pinko lefty librils.
I am forever amazed at the inability of the Rays of this world to envision
life outside of pre-set neatly defined constructs. The thought that the
world *has* to be that clearly organised and compartmentalised, and *cannot*
possibly be much more complex, is like a huge comfort blanket without which
they simply cannot cope. It reminds me of those obsessive-compulsive
disorder sufferers who can only go out of their house after washing their
hands and walking five time anticlockwise around the kitchen table...
End of effin' rant.
--
Cat(h)
The world swirls...
Whitewolf
Hash: SHA1
I read some of them, but when I came back after 4 days and faced over
a thousand new posts, I had to skip most of them to try and catch
up... Unfortunately, I skipped some I was interested in as well as
the ones I wasn't...
Ray
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Whitewolf
Hash: SHA1
And yet 80% voted "YES" I think your insulting the intelligence of
the Irish voter Gerry...
>> > and Idon't
>> >mind the result as such, but it bugs me the way it is being used
in
>> some of
>> >the media to present Ireland as a racist country
>> >
>> That would be the leftist/immigrants are better then us anyway/I'm
so
>> left I can't even spell rihgt brigade...
>
>There's something about the word 'spell' that just puts a spell on
you,
>isn't there? Actually, as we have seen in this newsgroup already,
it's the
>right-wing that's doing all the crowing about wonderfully racist
Ireland.
>
Nothing racist about the referendum - except in the minds of those who
oppose it..
> sad bastards! Denying
>> reality and trying to accuse 80% of the population of being
racist...
>
>Says who?
>
>Race isn't the issue here, it's about removing a constitutional
right, where
>else has that ever happened? It certainly wouldn't happen in the USA
where
>the automatic birthright to citizenship has existed for over 200
years now.
>
It's about closing a loophole before it floods the country... It's
shut now..
Ray
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Whitewolf
Hash: SHA1
On Wed, 16 Jun 2004 12:52:57 +0100, "Cat" <cath...@NOSPAMyahoo.com>
wrote:
>
>
>"OldWiseMan" <oldwis...@hotmail.com> wrote in message
>news:2j94apF...@uni-berlin.de...
>>
>> "Whitewolf" <r...@eirefirst.com> wrote in message
>> news:siguc0h729thls38m...@4ax.com...
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>>
>> > I saw that you were besieged by liberal/leftists "no" voters...
I'd
>> > hoped you'd seen through their bullshit and voted yes in the TRUE
>> > interest of Ireland... alas not... But it passed
nevertheless...
>> >
>>
>> It was nothing to do with liberal/leftists - didn't you read the
reasons I
>> gave?
>>
>
>The reasons you gave do not fit into Ray's neat little preconception
boxes.
Oh, here she goes again, trying to tell you (and others) what I think
and how I think it... I'd have figured she'd been burned enough with
that crap before now, but apparently some people don't learn...
Ray
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Des Higgins
"Féachadóir" <Féach@d.óir> wrote in message
news:23o0d0plqus2eh5v3...@4ax.com...
> Scríobh Whitewolf <r...@eirefirst.com>:
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> >
> >On Tue, 15 Jun 2004 21:25:59 +0100, "OldWiseMan"
> ><oldwis...@hotmail.com> wrote:
> >
> >>
> >>"Whitewolf" <r...@eirefirst.com> wrote in message
> >>news:siguc0h729thls38m...@4ax.com...
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> >>
> >>> I saw that you were besieged by liberal/leftists "no" voters...
> >I'd
> >>> hoped you'd seen through their bullshit and voted yes in the TRUE
> >>> interest of Ireland... alas not... But it passed nevertheless...
> >>>
> >>
> >>It was nothing to do with liberal/leftists - didn't you read the
> >reasons I
> >>gave?
> >>
> >
> >I read some of them, but when I came back after 4 days and faced over
> >a thousand new posts, I had to skip most of them to try and catch
> >up... Unfortunately, I skipped some I was interested in as well as
> >the ones I wasn't...
>
> choice in the ballot, you ought to read up on it?
>
> You do this all the time. If you want to ramble on about something
> here, by all means do. But at least do your homework first.
>
And Ray might also stop then accusing others of having preconceptions as to
what he thinks if he is
going to do teh same.
> --
> "Ferr fíor fertaib"
> Féachadóir
>
Whitewolf
Hash: SHA1
On Wed, 16 Jun 2004 16:00:51 +0100, Féachadóir <Féach@d.óir> wrote:
>Scríobh Whitewolf <r...@eirefirst.com>:
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>>
>>On Tue, 15 Jun 2004 21:25:59 +0100, "OldWiseMan"
>><oldwis...@hotmail.com> wrote:
>>
>>>
>>>"Whitewolf" <r...@eirefirst.com> wrote in message
>>>news:siguc0h729thls38m...@4ax.com...
>>>> -----BEGIN PGP SIGNED MESSAGE-----
>>>> Hash: SHA1
>>>
>>>> I saw that you were besieged by liberal/leftists "no" voters...
>>I'd
>>>> hoped you'd seen through their bullshit and voted yes in the TRUE
>>>> interest of Ireland... alas not... But it passed
nevertheless...
>>>>
>>>
>>>It was nothing to do with liberal/leftists - didn't you read the
>>reasons I
>>>gave?
>>>
>>
>>I read some of them, but when I came back after 4 days and faced
over
>>a thousand new posts, I had to skip most of them to try and catch
>>up... Unfortunately, I skipped some I was interested in as well as
>>the ones I wasn't...
>
>Ray, perhaps before you draw a conclusion about why OWM made his
>choice in the ballot, you ought to read up on it?
>
>You do this all the time. If you want to ramble on about something
>here, by all means do. But at least do your homework first.
I didn't draw any conclusions, I asked straight out... What thread
was the discussion in that OWM declared his reasons and choice?
Ray
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OldWiseMan
> I didn't draw any conclusions, I asked straight out... What thread
> was the discussion in that OWM declared his reasons and choice?
"Decided to Vote NO" - a thread started by me on 11/06 so it's kinda obvious
:)
To make life easy for you, here's what I said:
"I've previously posted about my indecision on the Citizenship referendum.
Having listened more to the debate on both sides - including the
contributions on SCI - I'm still not entirely convinced by either side.
However, I believe that our Constitution is something to be treated with
respect and certainly not something to be meddled with. The previous
attempts to deal with abortion in the Constitution were an embarrassing
fiasco and the more I look at this amendment, the more I see it in the same
light.
Nothing convinces me that the change is actually necessary, the issue of
'tourist babies' - if it is a real issue - should be capable of being dealt
with through legislation.
The more I think about this proposed amendment, the more I see it as a
McDowell hobby horse thing, a sledgehammer to crack a nut that may cause
peripheral damage in the long term.
That is why I will vote NO today."
Mullaghbawn
> Oh, here she goes again, trying to tell you (and others) what I think
> and how I think it... I'd have figured she'd been burned enough with
> that crap before now, but apparently some people don't learn...
Yeah, when the hell does she get off that tram? You spend copious amounts of
bandwidth telling everyone what you think and how you think it, Ray, and
every reader with a 3-digit IQ already knows you're perspective is unsullied
by complexity.
Mullaghbawn
OldWiseMan
> I didn't draw any conclusions, I asked straight out...
And when I said I voted NO, you replied:
"I saw that you were besieged by liberal/leftists "no" voters... I'd
hoped you'd seen through their bullshit and voted yes in the TRUE
interest of Ireland... alas not... "
The clear inference was that I was some way bluffed or inviegled by
liberal/leftists. Having gone to the trouble of listening to both sides of
the argument and expressing my own views and conclusions in public, I found
this inference most offensive.
BfB
Wow , Ray this is great. Can't blame 80% of the population for
being wrong ehh..... so let's slag Ray about some innocuous bull.
I love it when we 'conservatives' are right. The 'silent majority'
rose up to vote for Ireland. Just as the 'silent majority' rose up
to say goodby to one of the greatest American presidents in
history.
BfB
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BfB
"Gerry Doyle" <alac...@NOFECKINSPAMeircom.net> wrote in message
news:cao5ba$sde$1...@kermit.esat.net...
>
> news:siguc0h729thls38m...@4ax.com...
> > -----BEGIN PGP SIGNED MESSAGE-----
> > Hash: SHA1
> >
> > On Tue, 15 Jun 2004 18:44:46 +0100, "OldWiseMan"
> > <oldwis...@hotmail.com> wrote:
> >
> > >
> > >"Whitewolf" <r...@eirefirst.com> wrote in message
> > >news:d09uc01u2fn2d447f...@4ax.com...
> > >> -----BEGIN PGP SIGNED MESSAGE-----
> > >> Hash: SHA1
> > >
> > >I ended up voting no - reasons given in a thread started by me -
> >
> > I saw that you were besieged by liberal/leftists "no" voters...
>
> It's called a debate. It's where people have opinions and argue them with
> each other, cutting and pasting just doesn't work, maybe that's why you
had
> nothing to say?
>
> I'd
> > hoped you'd seen through their bullshit and voted yes in the TRUE
> > interest of Ireland... alas not... But it passed nevertheless...
>
> Despite something like 70% of those polled admitting that they hadn't a
clue
> about the issues.
>
Sounds like the losers whine in an American election.
BfB
BfB
"FreeIreland" <kmce...@hotmail.com> wrote in message
news:880e8f3c.04061...@posting.google.com...
BfB
OldWiseMan
"BfB" <_@-._> wrote in message news:KfSdnZoLucv...@adelphia.com...
>
> "Whitewolf" <r...@eirefirst.com> wrote in message
> news:pqp0d0dco2u7chk9b...@4ax.com...
>
>
> Wow , Ray this is great. Can't blame 80% of the population for
> being wrong ehh..... so let's slag Ray about some innocuous bull.
Ahem....
This particular argument isn't about the passing of the referendum ... it's
about Ray making stupid allegations about why *I* as an individual voted no
Merrick
> Scríobh Whitewolf <r...@eirefirst.com>:
> >-----BEGIN PGP SIGNED MESSAGE-----
> >Hash: SHA1
> >
> >one majority.
>
> a newspaper since Sunday are grateful.
Major LOL!
--
Harry Merrick.
No Problem Can Stand The Assault Of Sustained Thinking.
"Voltaire"
Gerry Doyle
Amazing too, every time Ray talks shite the parrot talks it back. It was
80% of the 60% that voted who had voted for the amendment, in other words
only about 47% of the electorate voted Yes. Hardly a crushing majority
after all. By the same token, only 13% voted No, while the balance of some
40% just didn't give a shite either way.
G
Gerry Doyle
Er, no, 47% of the electorate voted Yes. 13% voted No. 40% just didn't
care.
I think your insulting the intelligence of
> the Irish voter Gerry...
I'm telling you the result of a poll. It wasn't my poll, nor did I take any
part in it. Just reporting the result, like you do.
> >> > and Idon't
> >> >mind the result as such, but it bugs me the way it is being used
> in
> >> some of
> >> >the media to present Ireland as a racist country
> >> >
> >> That would be the leftist/immigrants are better then us anyway/I'm
> so
> >> left I can't even spell rihgt brigade...
> >
> >There's something about the word 'spell' that just puts a spell on
> you,
> >isn't there? Actually, as we have seen in this newsgroup already,
> it's the
> >right-wing that's doing all the crowing about wonderfully racist
> Ireland.
> >
>
> Nothing racist about the referendum - except in the minds of those who
> oppose it..
I opposed it, but if you read my post on the matter you'd see that I didn't
consider race to be an issue.
> > sad bastards! Denying
> >> reality and trying to accuse 80% of the population of being
> racist...
> >
> >Says who?
> >
> >Race isn't the issue here, it's about removing a constitutional
> right, where
> >else has that ever happened? It certainly wouldn't happen in the USA
> where
> >the automatic birthright to citizenship has existed for over 200
> years now.
> >
> It's about closing a loophole before it floods the country... It's
> shut now..
I see, just as I thought - you really do know fuck all about the issues.
Where's the loophole? How is it shut, what has happened yet? Where's the
flood, why is it here and why will it now stop?
G
FreeIreland
The Campaign Against the Racist Referendum (CARR) was set up in April
2004, set up by Residents Against Racism (RAR).
Brendan Young argued the referendum was definitely racist – we need
equal rights. This is a "Fuck off and Die" Referendum. Objectively,
that is what it's about. All children have the same rights.
Shannon Brook Murphy works in the office of Sinn Féin TD Aengus O
Snodaigh. She worked for many years in Toronto. Experience there
showed that state racist measures open the vacuum – it creates a
space for right wing and racist parties to operate and organize. We
need a Cross Party opposition to this measure.
Ivana Bacik - Lawyers Against the Amendment;
Gareth Kehoe - Deputy President, Union of Students in Ireland;
Dr. Joanna McMinn - Director National Women‚s Council of Ireland;
Tom Ryan - President Dublin Council of Trade Unions;
Spokesperson - Residents Against Racism.
Some people who have spoken at CARR events.
Abdul McRothstein
country with condos and apartments buildings far and wide and give all
the Irish jobs away to the poor and oppressed.Beef up the welfare
program because we are sure gonna need it.They will willingly accept
our charity and then cut our throats for this stupidity.Liberal
do-gooders and progressive morons do not know what box of horrors
they have wrought upon their country.This is not reactionary rhetoric
this is from long term observation.Look at what happened to the USA
and nobody wants to admit what is happening.Liberals and progressives
should be the first to have to donate their land and jobs and
privileges to demonstrate their sincerity.Multi-culturalism and
entitlement programs to foreigners is nothing but an obstacle to
progress and will disintegrate the traditions and hopes for the
country.There is a world of difference between idealism and reality.
Whitewolf <r...@eirefirst.com> wrote in message news:<ksm0d0pr5s1p2p046...@4ax.com>...
BfB
BfB
BfB
"Gerry Doyle" <alac...@NOFECKINSPAMeircom.net> wrote in message
BfB
BfB
> equal rights. This is a "Fuck off and Die" Referendum. Objectively,
> that is what it's about. All children have the same rights.
>
> Shannon Brook Murphy works in the office of Sinn Féin TD Aengus O
> Snodaigh. She worked for many years in Toronto. Experience there
> showed that state racist measures open the vacuum – it creates a
> space for right wing and racist parties to operate and organize. We
> need a Cross Party opposition to this measure.
>
> Ivana Bacik - Lawyers Against the Amendment;
> Gareth Kehoe - Deputy President, Union of Students in Ireland;
> Tom Ryan - President Dublin Council of Trade Unions;
> Spokesperson - Residents Against Racism.
>
> Some people who have spoken at CARR events.
>
demeaning the overwhelming majority of Ireland as racist. Now,
from the casual observer, I would say that they were being a bit
anti-Ireland, wouldn't you?
BfB
Whitewolf
Hash: SHA1
I asked you which way youvoted and why... I noted that you were
besieged by "no" voters trying to tell you why you should vote no,,,
I wouldn't have asked you why you voted no, if I believed you caved
into some sort of SCI peer pressure...
Ray
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Whitewolf
Hash: SHA1
On Wed, 16 Jun 2004 16:15:24 -0400, "BfB" <_@-._> wrote:
>
>"Whitewolf" <r...@eirefirst.com> wrote in message
>news:pqp0d0dco2u7chk9b...@4ax.com...
>
>
>Wow , Ray this is great. Can't blame 80% of the population for
>being wrong ehh..... so let's slag Ray about some innocuous bull.
>I love it when we 'conservatives' are right. The 'silent majority'
>rose up to vote for Ireland. Just as the 'silent majority' rose up
>to say goodby to one of the greatest American presidents in
>history.
>
>BfB
>
Also note that it once again clearly shows that opinions of the
"majority" of Irish on this newsgroup do NOT reflect the true opinions
of the man in the street but rather the minority more liberal
opinion...
Ray
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Whitewolf
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It's more about my words being taken up wrong...
Ray
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Whitewolf
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On Thu, 17 Jun 2004 01:18:12 +0100, "Gerry Doyle"
<alac...@NOFECKINSPAMeircom.net> wrote:
>
>"Whitewolf" <r...@eirefirst.com> wrote in message
>news:ksm0d0pr5s1p2p046...@4ax.com...
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>>
>> On Wed, 16 Jun 2004 01:32:19 +0100, "Gerry Doyle"
>> <alac...@NOFECKINSPAMeircom.net> wrote:
>>
>> >
>> >"Whitewolf" <r...@eirefirst.com> wrote in message
>> >news:siguc0h729thls38m...@4ax.com...
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>> >>
>> >> On Tue, 15 Jun 2004 18:44:46 +0100, "OldWiseMan"
>> >> <oldwis...@hotmail.com> wrote:
>> >>
>> >> >
>> >> >"Whitewolf" <r...@eirefirst.com> wrote in message
>> >> >news:d09uc01u2fn2d447f...@4ax.com...
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>> >> >
>> >> >I ended up voting no - reasons given in a thread started by me
- -
>> >>
>> >> I saw that you were besieged by liberal/leftists "no" voters...
>> >
>> >It's called a debate. It's where people have opinions and argue
them
>> with
>> >each other, cutting and pasting just doesn't work, maybe that's
why
>> you had
>> >nothing to say?
>> >
>> > I'd
>> >> hoped you'd seen through their bullshit and voted yes in the
TRUE
>> >> interest of Ireland... alas not... But it passed
nevertheless...
>> >
>> >Despite something like 70% of those polled admitting that they
hadn't
>> a clue
>> >about the issues.
>> >
>>
>> And yet 80% voted "YES"
>
>Er, no, 47% of the electorate voted Yes. 13% voted No. 40% just
didn't
>care.
>
Play the numbers game to try and minimize the result all you like, but
80% of people supported a YES vote...
> I think your insulting the intelligence of
>> the Irish voter Gerry...
>
>I'm telling you the result of a poll. It wasn't my poll, nor did I
take any
>part in it. Just reporting the result, like you do.
>
You didn't vote?
>> >> > and Idon't
>> >> >mind the result as such, but it bugs me the way it is being
used
>> in
>> >> some of
>> >> >the media to present Ireland as a racist country
>> >> >
>> >> That would be the leftist/immigrants are better then us
anyway/I'm
>> so
>> >> left I can't even spell rihgt brigade...
>> >
>> >There's something about the word 'spell' that just puts a spell on
>> you,
>> >isn't there? Actually, as we have seen in this newsgroup already,
>> it's the
>> >right-wing that's doing all the crowing about wonderfully racist
>> Ireland.
>> >
>>
>> Nothing racist about the referendum - except in the minds of those
who
>> oppose it..
>
>I opposed it, but if you read my post on the matter you'd see that I
didn't
>consider race to be an issue.
>
In the minds of most of those who opposed it then...
>> > sad bastards! Denying
>> >> reality and trying to accuse 80% of the population of being
>> racist...
>> >
>> >Says who?
>> >
>> >Race isn't the issue here, it's about removing a constitutional
>> right, where
>> >else has that ever happened? It certainly wouldn't happen in the
USA
>> where
>> >the automatic birthright to citizenship has existed for over 200
>> years now.
>> >
>
>> It's about closing a loophole before it floods the country... It's
>> shut now..
>
>I see, just as I thought - you really do know fuck all about the
issues.
says the man that didn't even vote...
Ray
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Merrick
news:1fa573b8.04061...@posting.google.com...
> Let's start building those mosques and minarets and temples.String the
> country with condos and apartments buildings far and wide and give all
> the Irish jobs away to the poor and oppressed.Beef up the welfare
> program because we are sure gonna need it.They will willingly accept
> our charity and then cut our throats for this stupidity.Liberal
> do-gooders and progressive morons do not know what box of horrors
> they have wrought upon their country.This is not reactionary rhetoric
> this is from long term observation.Look at what happened to the USA
> and nobody wants to admit what is happening.Liberals and progressives
> should be the first to have to donate their land and jobs and
> privileges to demonstrate their sincerity.Multi-culturalism and
> entitlement programs to foreigners is nothing but an obstacle to
> progress and will disintegrate the traditions and hopes for the
> country.There is a world of difference between idealism and reality.
>
Racist the above response may be, but I find myself in total agreement with
it, albeit reluctantly. The Muslim Religion, per se, is of course mostly
very gentle, and the Koran preaches peace and understanding and tolerance.
Sadly, this appears to be very easily misinterpreted by the extremist
activists in the Muslim world, who feel that to have forty virgins to do
what they want with if they blow up a few Christians or Jews is worth
getting killed for!! (Can one "really" get a hard on in Heaven??) - The Mad
Mullah's of the past (and present) are prime examples of this. - The war now
is against the West, and in particular, the Christian West. We are dealing
with a very backward society, with very little understanding or tolerance of
civilisation or acceptable civilised behaviour. We are also dealing with a
degree of envy and mighty suspicion of the rich West and it's intentions.
This is of course mostly the fault of Western countries who have failed
dismally to reach out with understanding and proper, no strings attached,
friendships. Of course, Christianity can be accused of exactly the same
thing, ergo, the activities of terrorists under the pretence of being
freedom fighters etc. ALL totally unacceptable behaviour, and all of which
must indeed be stamped upon mercilessly if we are to survive the onslaught.
Being PC is merely helping the offenders to offend even more. Sadly, as
always, the millions of Innocents are the one's who will get off worst, as
can be seen in Iraq every day, and in the North over many years in the past.
It has to be stopped, it has to be stopped NOW! Strong and relentless
leadership is what is required here, or we are ALL lost!
BfB
"Merrick" <merr...@agencies.dnet.co.uk> wrote in message
news:2je553F...@uni-berlin.de...
<useless blather and blaming>
It has to be stopped, it has to be stopped NOW! Strong and relentless
> leadership is what is required here, or we are ALL lost!
>
>
BfB
Merrick
"BfB" <_@-._> wrote in message news:lMWdneDrfcg...@adelphia.com...
And SO am I! - Your head is so far up your own ass all you can see is shit!
ROTFL!
BfB
>
> "BfB" <_@-._> wrote in message news:lMWdneDrfcg...@adelphia.com...
> >
> > "Merrick" <merr...@agencies.dnet.co.uk> wrote in message
> > news:2je553F...@uni-berlin.de...
> > <useless blather and blaming>
> > It has to be stopped, it has to be stopped NOW! Strong and relentless
> > > leadership is what is required here, or we are ALL lost!
> > >
> > >
> > Boy, I'm glad your on the other side!
>
> And SO am I! - Your head is so far up your own ass all you can see is
shit!
>
> ROTFL!
>
>
have your HUYA.
ILICISCOMK,
BfB
FreeIreland
Talk about tarring everyone with the same brush. First not everyone in
Ireland is a liberal (in fact as this newsgroup shows most people do
not even know what a liberal or socialist is), not everyone in Ireland
has a sectarian ideology. The second reality is just under 80% of just
under a 60% turnout of Irelands population voted yes. Thats under 48%
of Irelands population voted yes to this referendum which is not even
the majority of Irish voters never mind the over whelming majority.
http://www.referendum.ie/home/
The reality is voting for this referendum was held on the same day as
the local and european elections, a tactic used by the Irish
government to avoid actually debating the issues and getting the
required turnout. The fact is people voted Yes on the referendum
without any proper debate on the impact it would have.
The Referendum is in breach of agreed guidelines. The All-Party
Committee on the Constitution set out clear and agreed procedures for
the holding of referendums. These procedures have not been complied
with in order to meet the Government's rush to meddle with the
Constitution on 11 June.
There has been no Green Paper on citizenship; no consultation with
Opposition parties; nor with the All-Party Oireachtas Committee on the
Constitution; nor the Human Rights Commissions, North or South.
The Government's rush to amend the Constitution stands in stark
contrast with its prevarication on the pressing issue of reforming our
immigration policy. The Referendum is taking place in the complete
absence of fair and comprehensive immigration policy. The Government's
tardiness in producing the necessary and long sought after immigration
legislation exposes its claims about the urgency of the referendum as
baseless.
The Government's ‘justifications' for the referendum have been weak
and misleading. The statistics offered by the Minister McDowell did
not bear out his claims about wholesale ‘citizenship tourism'.
The Minister has been forced to concede that he has relied on
‘anecdotal' evidence to support his assertions about pregnant women
coming here to abuse our citizenship laws.
It has become clear that if there are such cases they are likely to be
a tiny number. Of the ‘non-national' women using maternity services
many are from other European countries, as well as women who have been
invited here to work in our hospitals and elsewhere.
The referendum has reversed the ‘common law' principle which has
underwritten Irish citizenship since the founding of the State.
Ireland has a traditional republican approach, which treats all
citizens equal at birth and does not dictate their status by who their
parents are.
One of the immigrants who made an outstanding contribution to Ireland
was a founding father of the State, Eamon De Valera. Isn't it ironic
to find a coalition Government led by the so-called Republican Party
(Fianna Fáil) rushing to amend De Valera's Constitution in order to
remove an "anomaly" and cure an "unintended" citizenship advantage
conferred purely by an accident of birth.
It was De Valera's US citizenship that saved him from execution in
1916 - a citizenship that the infant son of two immigrants, of
uncertain status, automatically acquired solely by reason of the fact
that De Valera was born in the United States.
BfB
"FreeIreland" <kmce...@hotmail.com> wrote in message
news:880e8f3c.04061...@posting.google.com...
> > >
This 2004, not 1916, the times, and motives of today are very different.
However you care to minimize the majority voting for the amendment, the fact
remains that 80% of the citizens finding this
issue important enough to get their asses out to vote, have spoken
quite loudly. Now, the 20%ish who showed up against, should be
commended for their effort but, please don't try to put lipstick on
a pig.
BfB
Harry Merrick
LOL!
You just proved my point! Shouting, ranting and raving! All symptomatic of
serious intellectual shortcomings and paranoia!
FreeIreland
> This 2004, not 1916, the times, and motives of today are very different.
> However you care to minimize the majority voting for the amendment, the fact
> remains that 80% of the citizens finding this
> issue important enough to get their asses out to vote, have spoken
> quite loudly. Now, the 20%ish who showed up against, should be
> commended for their effort but, please don't try to put lipstick on
> a pig.
>
> BfB
First you stated that the overwhelming majority of Irish people backed
this referendum, I clearly pointed out that was not the case.
Secondly 60% of Irish citizens did not get there asses out to vote on
this issue but to vote on the local and european elections.
The government used scare-mongering tactics, even Minister McDowell
has since conceeded that nothing more than casual observations where
used when he made assertions about the numbers of pregnant women
coming here to abuse our citizenship laws. Maternity ward staff have
since squashed this misleading information. The government then
breached guidelines set out by the all party Committee on the
Constitution set out for the holding of referendums. They bundled the
referendum with the local and european elections just as they did with
the Nice treaty otherwise they would not have got the turnout. By
doing all this so quickly they refused the opposition the right oppose
the referendum and the Irish nation the right to hear a full and
proper debate.
The real difference between Ireland now and in 1916 is people are
immigrating to here instead of from here. Modifing the citizens equal
at birth common law that helped found and shape our very nation does
not help in this matter in the slightest. The fact is the current
government has largely evaded the urgent business of reforming Irish
immigration polices.
This referendum is nothing more than a placebo for the incoming
immigration management problem which is now starting to come to
Ireland, a problem the Irish government is largly ignoring which will
only result in Ireland being in the same situation as Britian and the
US.
BfB
"Harry Merrick" <merr...@agencies.dnet.co.uk> wrote in message
news:2jidm0F...@uni-berlin.de...
Apparent, even to children!!! Plain as the nose on your face!
BfB
Well, I believe a hard line should be drawn. If you enter a country,
seeking citizenship, and the benefits that come along with that, you
should speak the language, have a sponsor, be monitored, re:
your compliance with laws, and have to be compliant for two years.
Any unlawful behavior, or noncompliance should subject you to
immediate deportation, strictly enforced. America is being bled
slowly by benefit shopping, illegal immigrants. It is a fact. These people
have no intention of assimilating, or following any laws, they
do not speak the language, and refuse to learn. I believe that in todays'
world, if you want to maintain a semblance of your cultural,
national, heritage, you must be willing to be unbending in your
attention to those who would only arrive in your country with
motives other than what they say. If you want to have your society
degraded to the point that it becomes unrecognizable, it's on
you. Using the term racist is only a word changing ploy by those
who would destroy your identity as an Irishman, American, whatever.
The facts speak for themselves in the US. We are being rotted from
within. I plan to retire to Ireland and I don't want to see that happen
there.
BfB
Wild Colonial Boy
<merr...@agencies.dnet.co.uk> wrote:
>"Abdul McRothstein" <bob...@hotmail.com> wrote in message
>news:1fa573b8.04061...@posting.google.com...
>> Let's start building those mosques and minarets and temples.String the
>> country with condos and apartments buildings far and wide and give all
>> the Irish jobs away to the poor and oppressed.Beef up the welfare
>> program because we are sure gonna need it.They will willingly accept
>> our charity and then cut our throats for this stupidity.Liberal
>> do-gooders and progressive morons do not know what box of horrors
>> they have wrought upon their country.This is not reactionary rhetoric
>> this is from long term observation.Look at what happened to the USA
>> and nobody wants to admit what is happening.Liberals and progressives
>> should be the first to have to donate their land and jobs and
>> privileges to demonstrate their sincerity.Multi-culturalism and
>> entitlement programs to foreigners is nothing but an obstacle to
>> progress and will disintegrate the traditions and hopes for the
>> country.There is a world of difference between idealism and reality.
>>
>
>Racist the above response may be, but I find myself in total agreement with
>it, albeit reluctantly. The Muslim Religion, per se, is of course mostly
>very gentle, and the Koran preaches peace and understanding and tolerance.
>Sadly, this appears to be very easily misinterpreted by the extremist
>activists in the Muslim world, who feel that to have forty virgins
Thats 72...iirc
Nik
Merrick
news:m2t6d01403jgmvr0q...@4ax.com...
contemplate dealing with when alive, but 72 when dead!! - If that were true
then we paur auld Christian and Agnostic Westerners certainly have little
chance against the activist Muslim!!
FreeIreland
You see Bob now we are getting to the point. This referendum does not
draw any sort of line in regards to people entering countries looking
for citizenship. This refuses children the right to Irish citizenship
if they are born and raised in this country on the basis of the
nationality of the innocent childs parents. This could easily be
portrayed as discrimination or prejudice based on race anotherwards
racism.
Take this example Bob, Ireland has a shortage of nurses and as a
result the government is targeting Filipina nurses. Are we really
expecting these young women and their husbands to come here pay their
taxes etc and then by default any children they have will
automatically be disadvantaged when it comes to befits and citizen
rights. It doesn't stop illegals at all.
Don't you think it stange Bob that in the US we see a republican
president suggesting giving illegals partial citizenship. This allows
them to use the benefit system etc but it also allows them to work
legally resulting in paying taxes and contributing to society.
What your talking about is not the role of the Irish constitution but
the role of Irish immigration policies. The problem with this is the
Irish government has evaded reforming Irish imigration polices. So yes
the government has to sort out immigration not victimise the children
of immigrants invited here to help out our health system and
workforce shortage.
As for America being bled dry by immigrants, I find that quite amusing
since its a nation of immigrants. The American employment rae is
around 3.5% the same as its always been, American service industries,
they're in hotels, they clean rooms, they clean the floors, they're in
restaurants, they wash dishes, they bus tables. America would be
paralyzed without these people as these jobs are not being filled by
American citizens. America needed workers, and the immigration laws,
which left the borders largely open, were written with that in mind.
America has an economic vortex which illegals fill. This is why Bush
is offering them partial citizenship instead of a crackdown. I
actually think its the most impressive radical initiative the current
president has come up with.
BfB
Wow, what a crock! Using the 'innocent children' line of justification
of illegal immigration. The nurses, staying a required time, can have
citizenship, as well as their children, *earned* citizenship. Racism,
discrimination, indeed.
The plan, advanced by the president, allowing illegal Mexicans
some *legal* time in the US is clearly not as you try to describe it.
It puts responsibility on these people, and allows the government
to extract some money , via taxes, as well as track these people.
Read the details. Btw, pro-immigrant groups are none to happy, and
are protesting this generous offer to the criminals they represent. It
requires responsibility and a requirement to *earn* the benefit
privileges of the US. I figure about a 10% compliance rate, that is,
if it ever gets by the 'let's destroy America' Democratic, liberal,
lobby. Comparing the immigration, and assimilation of those
people who have fought and died for this country, worked as
one, to make America the great country it is, to the illegal,
criminal behavior of these current thugs is insulting and
demeaning, a favorite tactic of you liberal country wreckers. The
line that these illegals do the work that no legal immigrant would do
is again, an insulting, unsubstantiated, smokescreen with no merit.
On the whole, your misrepresentation of the facts, your insulting
labeling of good intentioned people, who strive for conserving
the society that has made their country what it is today, is dishonest
at best. Nothing in your premise is true, you only put forth an
insulting, demeaning argument trying to put the good citizens
in both countries on the defensive, while in reality you enable what
is clearly, illegal, criminal behavior. And in doing this, you hijack
the good name of these honest citizens, steal their tax money,
given willingly for other legitimate reasons, insult them, and for
what? To support an element, in the world today, who would land where they
can, take, not contribute, and destroy the work done
by the good, honest, hardworking citizens of Ireland, who have
let their support of Ireland, as a country, be known.
Shame on you.
BfB
FreeIreland
So tell me Bob what crime have these new born babies committeed?
> The plan, advanced by the president, allowing illegal Mexicans
> some *legal* time in the US is clearly not as you try to describe it.
> It puts responsibility on these people, and allows the government
> to extract some money , via taxes, as well as track these people.
Of course this is the plan. However what is clear is the government
believes its better to have immigrants as legal citizens rather than
illegals for the exact reasons you have described.
> Read the details. Btw, pro-immigrant groups are none to happy, and
> are protesting this generous offer to the criminals they represent. It
> requires responsibility and a requirement to *earn* the benefit
> privileges of the US. I figure about a 10% compliance rate, that is,
> if it ever gets by the 'let's destroy America' Democratic, liberal,
> lobby.
Not all pro-immigrant groups are against this idea. The reason why
many are against it is because it looks very like a second class
citizenship. Some would even go as to say its exploitation. Of course
many see this as a ploy by Bush to simply tap into the latino vote.
What are you talking about compliance rates for. Bush's proposals have
not been passed by congress yet.
"[The programme] rewards business over immigrants by providing them
with a permanent pool of disenfranchised temporary workers who could
easily be exploited" -John F Kerry.
"Allows estimated 8m illegal immigrant workers chance to work legally
in the country for a fixed period
Will gain legal status for an initial period of three years if can
prove they have jobs
Will be able to travel freely between US and their home countries
Workers can apply for guest worker status at a US company if it is
proved no US citizen can take the job
Can apply for green card giving permanent residency in US, although Mr
Bush said there would be no special preference for such workers"
President Bushes proposals.
Comparing the immigration, and assimilation of those
> people who have fought and died for this country, worked as
> one, to make America the great country it is, to the illegal,
> criminal behavior of these current thugs is insulting and
> demeaning, a favorite tactic of you liberal country wreckers.
No its not at all. America is a great country no doubt and the
constitution etc when first signed where ideas and princples where
centuries ahead of that time. Though America is a nation built on the
ideas and work of immigrants. Those people who died and fought for
America where immigrants or the sons and daughters of immigrants.
Immigrants today are seeking entry to the US for the exact same
reasons as they did 100 years ago.
The
> line that these illegals do the work that no legal immigrant would do
> is again, an insulting, unsubstantiated, smokescreen with no merit.
"We have jobs that go vacant through the high season that just can't
get filled, That would give us the capability of filling those
positions."
- Richard Bibee, chairman of the Arizona Hotel & Lodging Association
and general manager of the Renaissance Scottsdale Resort, sees great
benefit in allowing more immigrant workers into the labor force to
fill service-oriented and seasonal jobs.
> On the whole, your misrepresentation of the facts, your insulting
> labeling of good intentioned people, who strive for conserving
> the society that has made their country what it is today, is dishonest
> at best. Nothing in your premise is true, you only put forth an
> insulting, demeaning argument trying to put the good citizens
> in both countries on the defensive, while in reality you enable what
> is clearly, illegal, criminal behavior. And in doing this, you hijack
> the good name of these honest citizens, steal their tax money,
> given willingly for other legitimate reasons, insult them, and for
> what?
What a crock, first current immigration laws in the US or Ireland do
not work. They need reform. Secondly its impossible to keep illegals
out, the US and Britian have been trying for decades. Thirdly we need
immigrants due to work force shortages, no politican will deny this.
The key is not to deny immigrants rights but to get them contributing
to society legally.
A large number of recent immigrants has put downward pressure on the
wages of lower-skilled workers, then there should also be downward
pressure on the prices of the products and services using
lower-skilled workers. In other words, buyers of these products and
services get a benefit from immigration by paying lower prices.
And in fact, economists who closely study this impact find these
savings to U.S. consumers are significant and could be as high as $150
billion annually!
Recent data show more than 22 percent of immigrant households use some
form of public assistance, compared to 15 percent for the native
population.
This finding might suggest immigrants cost the government more than
they pay in taxes.
However, this is not necessarily the case. One long-known potential
problem with the Social Security system is the declining number of
workers supporting each retiree. But if immigrants significantly
increase the number of younger workers who have a long work career
ahead, some economists calculate the recent immigration will help
prolong Social Security's solvency.
To support an element, in the world today, who would land where they
> can, take, not contribute, and destroy the work done
> by the good, honest, hardworking citizens of Ireland, who have
> let their support of Ireland, as a country, be known.
> Shame on you.
>
> BfB
Most immigrants in Ireland are invited here to solve critical work
force shortages, they pay taxes and contribute fully, help curb the
spiriling housing costs (the average working couple in Dublin cannot
afford to buy a house) and decreasing the national debt. They boost
our understaffed, underpaid health system, (in the US as well, 25% of
physicans in the US are immigrants, 75% of care workers are
immigrants) Ireland needs immigrants. So what does our government do,
restricts the citizenship of these immigrants children on a basis of
assumpution and miss information by Mr McDowell which he has since
admitted. Tell me Bob how does this referendum curb the flow of
illegal immigrants to Ireland.
Tell me Bob what better way is there to intigrate people into Ireland
than have them born here and educate them in Irish schools, be part of
the Irish work force as Irish citizens.
BfB
When you write 'immigrant' do you mean legal, or illegal? Please
define these 20 odd uses, individually, in your post. Not doing so
makes any of your points useless.
BfB
FreeIreland
An immigrant is a person who leaves one country to settle permanently
in another wether it be legally or illegally.
Sounds like your trying to avoid answering the questions I asked.
Refer to which specific part of my post you are confused about,
explain your confusion I will gladly clear up any ambiguities.
BfB
I'm not avoiding anything, only asking for a clarification of your
statements re: 'immigrants'. Your little treatise is very smokey and
hard to read. Say what you mean, or don't say anything at all.
FreeIreland
I have explained clearly what an immigrant is. Legal or illegal they
are both immigrants. Again I ask you to identify what particular
instance are you refering to and I will clearify that instance when I
use the term immigrant.
Again I ask tell me Bob what better way is there to intigrate people
into Ireland
than have them born here and educate them in Irish schools, be part of
the Irish work force as Irish citizens?
BfB
> into Ireland
> than have them born here and educate them in Irish schools, be part of
> the Irish work force as Irish citizens?
You make them 'earn' a valuable commodity, citizenship. The
referendum addressed, imho, people shopping for EU citizenship,
thru Ireland. It protects Ireland from those whose lifestyle consists
of benefit shopping, crime, irresponsibility. Bringing the 'poor innocent
baby' part into it is dishonest. The bad guys are the parents, or
more often, parent. Ireland provides a mechanism for obtaining
citizenship responsibly. Changing the intention of the referendum,
by rumor and misinformation, and labeling the good citizens of Ireland
as racists, baby haters, is errrr, very LIBERAL of you.
BfB
FreeIreland
> "FreeIreland" <kmce...@hotmail.com> wrote in message
> news:880e8f3c.04062...@posting.google.com...
> > Again I ask tell me Bob what better way is there to intigrate people
> > into Ireland
> > than have them born here and educate them in Irish schools, be part of
> > the Irish work force as Irish citizens?
>
> You make them 'earn' a valuable commodity, citizenship.
Tell me how does a new born baby earn a valuable commodity?
> The
> referendum addressed, imho, people shopping for EU citizenship,
> thru Ireland. It protects Ireland from those whose lifestyle consists
> of benefit shopping, crime, irresponsibility.
Are you saying immigrants are criminals and irresponsible.
This is what minister McDowell claimed the Masters of Dublin's three
maternity hospitals had told him about this problem.
"They pleaded with me to do something to change the law in relation to
this. They didn't ask for additional resources, they were asking me to
change the law"
Dr Daly and Dr Michael Geary, issued a statement stating that "at no
time had they pleaded for a referendum" and that, in fact, they had
highlighted the need for more resources. Dr Sean Daly even said they
were being used as "scapegoats".
McDowell, has been caught several times blatantly lying and creating
scare stories about immigration. He has spoken of "citizenship
tourism", of "massive inflows" of non-nationals to the maternity
hospitals, of the situation "snowballing out of control", and of the
Masters of the Dublin hospitals "pleading" with him to change the laws
on citizenship. A document published by his Department based the case
for a referendum solely on the thesis that there is a growing problem
of non-national births in Ireland. All of this is untrue however and
McDowell has since had to change his story.
The real problems in maternity services are the result of years of
government cutbacks and closures. The Masters of the hospitals
themselves have accused McDowell of exaggeration, and the figures bear
them out. Take the Coombe Hospital, for example. The increase in
non-national births last year was just 2 per cent. As with the other
Dublin hospitals, a major portion of its 20 per cent of foreign
mothers were living and working in Ireland entirely legally, with many
from Britain and other EU countries, and the US.
Like a tabloid reporter McDowell coined the phrase "citizenship
tourism" however the statistics and the Masters of Dublin's maternity
hospitals show that Ireland has no such problem.
Mr McDowell later told RTÉ News that he accepted that the Masters of
Dublin maternity hospitals had not asked him to change the
Constitution.
Minister McDowell's motivation for a referendum on citizenship June
11th is at best suspect, and more likely based on partisan political
interests.
Bringing the 'poor innocent
> baby' part into it is dishonest. The bad guys are the parents, or
> more often, parent.
No its not dishonest at all. This referendum does not target
immigrants coming to this country at all. It targets new born babies,
who have committed no crimes therefore "innocent". The real question
is why hasn't McDowell or the government done what it should really be
doing and reforming our immigration policy.
Ireland provides a mechanism for obtaining
> citizenship responsibly.
Irelands slightly different that most other nations. McDowell did some
more scaremongering, claiming a recent study shows only Italy has more
immigrantion than Ireland (in Europe). However what McDowell has
failed to tell the public is the same report also claims that more
than half of immigrants to Ireland are Irish immigrating back from the
US, Austrailia and Britain etc.
Ireland provides an out of date mechanism for gaining citizenship.
Integration policies are driven by the private sector not the
government. Infact it would be fair to say Irish policies and
practices of immigration officials in Ireland in respect of putative
non-EU immigrants had probably changed little since the 1930s. The
most significant legislation governing the admission of foreigners
into Ireland is the Aliens Act 1935. Our legisaltion, immigration and
citizenship policies are woefully out of date in need of a radical
overhaul and vast reform for Irelands changed modern situation.
Dispite all this immigration scares McDowell is highlighting he and
the government still refuse to investigate the effects off and
overhaul immigration polices.
Changing the intention of the referendum,
> by rumor and misinformation,
It was McDowell providing the misinformation and to a degree now after
the referendum he has admitted. For instance he now says the Masters
of Dublins maternity hospitals did not request a referendum. This is
probably why McDowell wanted this referendum quickly without and
debate ignoring the agreed all party committees process for holding a
referendum. What piece of misinformation have I provided?
and labeling the good citizens of Ireland
> as racists, baby haters, is errrr,
I am a citizen of Ireland and I have a right to question the actions
of the government. I have not called anything racist what I said was
this has left us open racist comments. The funny thing is most of
these "racist referendum" comments are from Irish citizens. I have not
posted anything that claims Irish citizens are racist, most groups
such as CARR claim the referendum is racist and the Irish public have
been misinformed. I have never called anyone a baby hater, however I
do claim that this referendum only targets new born babies of non
nationals.
> very LIBERAL of you.
Funny Bob if it was thirty years ago you would probably be calling me
a communist. I don't fit into one of Americas little pigeon holes and
vary from left to right depending on the issue. A liberal is someone
who wants radical change and as far as immigration polices I believe
thats what is needed. So yes in this policy I am more liberal however
from your posts I can see you also beleive immigration policy needs
radical change so I guess you have liberal leanings as well.
>
> BfB
FreeIreland
> "FreeIreland" <kmce...@hotmail.com> wrote in message
> news:880e8f3c.04062...@posting.google.com...
> > Again I ask tell me Bob what better way is there to intigrate people
> > into Ireland
> > than have them born here and educate them in Irish schools, be part of
> > the Irish work force as Irish citizens?
>
> You make them 'earn' a valuable commodity, citizenship.
Tell me how does a new born baby earn a valuable commodity?
> The
> referendum addressed, imho, people shopping for EU citizenship,
> thru Ireland. It protects Ireland from those whose lifestyle consists
> of benefit shopping, crime, irresponsibility.
Are you saying immigrants are criminals and irresponsible.
Bringing the 'poor innocent
> baby' part into it is dishonest. The bad guys are the parents, or
> more often, parent.
No its not dishonest at all. This referendum does not target
immigrants coming to this country at all. It targets new born babies,
who have committed no crimes therefore "innocent". The real question
is why hasn't McDowell or the government done what it should really be
doing and reforming our immigration policy.
Ireland provides a mechanism for obtaining
> citizenship responsibly.
Irelands slightly different that most other nations. McDowell did some
more scaremongering, claiming a recent study shows only Italy has more
immigrantion than Ireland (in Europe). However what McDowell has
failed to tell the public is the same report also claims that more
than half of immigrants to Ireland are Irish immigrating back from the
US, Austrailia and Britain etc.
Ireland provides an out of date mechanism for gaining citizenship.
Integration policies are driven by the private sector not the
government. Infact it would be fair to say Irish policies and
practices of immigration officials in Ireland in respect of putative
non-EU immigrants had probably changed little since the 1930s. The
most significant legislation governing the admission of foreigners
into Ireland is the Aliens Act 1935. Our legisaltion, immigration and
citizenship policies are woefully out of date in need of a radical
overhaul and vast reform for Irelands changed modern situation.
Dispite all this immigration scares McDowell is highlighting he and
the government still refuse to investigate the effects off and
overhaul immigration polices.
Changing the intention of the referendum,
> by rumor and misinformation,
It was McDowell providing the misinformation and to a degree now after
the referendum he has admitted. For instance he now says the Masters
of Dublins maternity hospitals did not request a referendum. This is
probably why McDowell wanted this referendum quickly without and
debate ignoring the agreed all party committees process for holding a
referendum. What piece of misinformation have I provided?
and labeling the good citizens of Ireland
> as racists, baby haters, is errrr,
I am a citizen of Ireland and I have a right to question the actions
Michael O'Neill
<SNIP Cogent argument>
Well argued and points well taken.
McDowell shows in large writing the limitation of the legal mind dealing
with social issues, and given the Sinn Féin election results I think you
can take it that hsi marksmanship in the political arena is foot
directed.
How disingenous presentation of the Master's comments was scandalous and
not ten years ago would have raised a Dáil debate on the tenability of
his position.
Yet he's still in power, still in office and the right-wing model for his
posturing is visiting us this weekend.
M.
PS Bob's a TROLL.
BfB
"FreeIreland" <kmce...@hotmail.com> wrote in message
news:880e8f3c.04062...@posting.google.com...
> "BfB" <_@-._> wrote in message
news:<49GdnWDwJKj...@adelphia.com>...
> > "FreeIreland" <kmce...@hotmail.com> wrote in message
> > news:880e8f3c.04062...@posting.google.com...
> > > Again I ask tell me Bob what better way is there to intigrate people
> > > into Ireland
> > > than have them born here and educate them in Irish schools, be part of
> > > the Irish work force as Irish citizens?
> >
> > You make them 'earn' a valuable commodity, citizenship.
>
> Tell me how does a new born baby earn a valuable commodity?
>
BfB
this one man, McDowell, has hoodwinked all the good people of
Ireland. Shame on you. I give them much more credit than that.
BfB
FreeIreland
I am not blaming the majority of voters at all. What I am saying is
the majority of voters didn't really care about this issue and only
voted on it as it was packaged with the local and european elections.
The issue was not in the public domain long enough nor was it debated
therefore many people trusted the government. This is a pattern that
the Irish government is aware off and has abused in the past, the Nice
treaty for example.
The Department of Justice claimed, 60% of female asylum seekers aged
over 16 are pregnant at time of application. McDowell initially gave
as his sole reason for embarking on a referendum was the Masters of
the Dublin Maternity Hospitals who pleaded for a change to the
referendum.
Tell me Bob is this not misleading since McDowell has since published
the actual figures which show only 0.024% of births entitled to
citizenship before the referendum where children of non nationals. Is
it not misleading that after statements from the Masters of the Dublin
Maternity Hospitals who aparently wanted this referendum McDowell has
since done a complete u-turn, now saying they did not request this
referendum, instead they wanted increased funding.
Yet now as I type Bob the same Mr McDowell is in debate with the
American government to automatically give the over 50,000 illegal
Irish immigrants US citizenship.
What do you give credit to the people of Ireland for Bob, for
believing the Minister for Justice a position of respect and taking
him at his word.
>
> BfB
FreeIreland
> "FreeIreland" <kmce...@hotmail.com> wrote in message
> news:880e8f3c.04062...@posting.google.com...
> > "BfB" <_@-._> wrote in message
> news:<49GdnWDwJKj...@adelphia.com>...
> > > "FreeIreland" <kmce...@hotmail.com> wrote in message
> > > news:880e8f3c.04062...@posting.google.com...
> > > > Again I ask tell me Bob what better way is there to intigrate people
> > > > into Ireland
> > > > than have them born here and educate them in Irish schools, be part of
> > > > the Irish work force as Irish citizens?
> > >
> > > You make them 'earn' a valuable commodity, citizenship.
> >
> > Tell me how does a new born baby earn a valuable commodity?
> >
> Sorry, bringing up the baby shows me that your not understanding my view.
Bob I understand your view totally. Many people in Ireland are
fearfull of immigration to this country and they should be. The reason
is because immigration has the potential to cripple a small population
like Ireland, we cannot just open the gates. Though we also must
realize that Ireland needs immigrants in key sectors such as nursing,
the building trade and software industry. The key is immigrants are
not the problem but how we manage and grant them access to Ireland.
This referendum only targets 0.024% of new born babies in Ireland. It
doesn't affect the citizenship of the childs parents, the supreme
court has already ruled on this. We have to bring new born babies into
the disscussion because the referendum only targets them. Thats why
this whole referendum is very suspicious and if there was a full and
proper debate this would be brought to the forefront.
Instead the government should be overhauling our immigration system.
Over half the people immigrating to Ireland are the sons and daughters
of Irish immigrants. These people qualify for Irish citizenship and
have a right to come back but whats our government doing to manage
them. Nothing. The government wanted a yes vote which they got on the
Nice treaty allowing a further 10 countries into the EU granting them
freedom to move, live and work throughout Europe. Ireland is a prime
target for these Europeans who do not require citizenship or visas,
what is the Irish government doing to manage this. Nothing.
The real point is Bob this referendum is not an immigration policy, it
targets 0.024% of new born babies in Ireland nobody else. In most
cases most of these children are the sons or daughters of immigrants
invited here by the government such as filipino nurses.
The referendum will not stop the flow of immigrants to Ireland, it
will not stop those illegally trying to enter the country and it in
noway manages those legally entering. No we have largely 60-70 year
old legislation hopelessly out of date to do that. We do not need this
referendum we need an overhaul of our immigration management system
and legislation.
Madra Dubh
Is there no hope then for the fifty million Irish immigrants in America
gaining Irish citizenship?
(And for those who may have forgotten, I've an Irish gandmother and as such
I fully qualify for Irish citizenship)
FreeIreland
As far as I am aware Brian Cowen has said there is no prospect of
legislation being introduced this side of the presidential election.
This is an issue, which will be taken up in 2005 with congress.
> (And for those who may have forgotten, I've an Irish gandmother and as such
> I fully qualify for Irish citizenship)
>
>
Would you ever consider immigrating to Ireland?
FreeIreland
> -----BEGIN PGP SIGNED MESSAGE-----
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>
>
> >
> >"Whitewolf" <r...@eirefirst.com> wrote in message
> >
> >
> >Wow , Ray this is great. Can't blame 80% of the population for
> >being wrong ehh..... so let's slag Ray about some innocuous bull.
> >I love it when we 'conservatives' are right. The 'silent majority'
> >rose up to vote for Ireland. Just as the 'silent majority' rose up
> >to say goodby to one of the greatest American presidents in
> >history.
> >
> >BfB
> >
>
> Also note that it once again clearly shows that opinions of the
> "majority" of Irish on this newsgroup do NOT reflect the true opinions
> of the man in the street but rather the minority more liberal
> opinion...
>
> Ray
Ray the majority of people of the street don't care. The government
had to package this referendum with not one but two elections to get
any sort of turnout.
Now Ray I would like to hear your reasoning for voting yes I this
referendum considering figures released by McDowell prove that
"citizenship tourism" is on a n extremely small scale if it exists at
all and he has been economical with the truth specially in regards to
what he claimed the Masters of Dublins maternity wards said. I would
like to hear why you think this will somehow manage the immigration
problem.
>
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>
> --
> ~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~
> "Everyone, Republican or otherwise has their own
> particular part to play. No part is too great or too
> small, no one is too old or too young to do something."
> Bobby Sands (1954-1981), on hunger strike in 1981
>
> Email: ray-AT-eirefirst.com
> Website: http://www.eirefirst.com
> ~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~
Madra Dubh
Yep.
But the cost of living over there has gone through the roof.
Housing in and around Dublin is well nigh unaffordable.