[The Well] Input sought on ground and groundwater source heat pumps
Trisha Freeman
NGWA is serving on a Department of Energy advisory group working to identify actions that could have a substantial impact on the deployment and market penetration of ground and groundwater source heat pumps. Actions might include technology improvement and cost reduction, new business models, better data and tools for decisions, and the right types of policies. We would value your own thoughts for us to share with the advisory committee.
trisha freeman | membership and marketing director |
national ground water association |
601 dempsey road | westerville, ohio 43081 | usa |
800 551.7379 (614 898.7791), x 540 | fax 614 898.7786 |
tfre...@ngwa.org|
www.ngwa.org | www.wellowner.org
| www.groundwateradventurers.org
ngwa: dedicated to advancing groundwater knowledge
join us december 10-13 in new orleans, louisiana, for the 2009 ngwa ground water expo
Mike Krautkramer
Trisha,
Though I do not know enough about this stuff to be of any help, I can strongly recommend Larry Gregory of Gregory Drilling. Larry is an accepted guru in the Pacific Northwest with regard to groundwater source heat pump installation, marketing and regulations, and has been an active member of NGWA for a long time. His expertise would represent the issues of the Pacific Northwest very appropriately and I am sure he will participate if asked.
Mike
-----Original Message-----
From:
blmailer-thewell=ngwa.big...@biglist.com
[mailto:blmailer-thewell=ngwa.big...@biglist.com] On Behalf Of Trisha Freeman
Sent: Wednesday, September 30,
2009 6:28 AM
To: the...@ngwa.biglist.com
Subject: [The Well] Input sought
on ground and groundwater source heat pumps
NGWA is serving on a Department of Energy advisory group working to identify actions that could have a substantial impact on the deployment and market penetration of ground and groundwater source heat pumps. Actions might include technology improvement and cost reduction, new business models, better data and tools for decisions, and the right types of policies. We would value your own thoughts for us to share with the advisory committee.
trisha freeman |
membership and marketing director |
national ground water association |
601 dempsey road | westerville, ohio 43081 | usa |
800 551.7379 (614 898.7791), x 540 | fax 614 898.7786 |
tfre...@ngwa.org|
www.ngwa.org | www.wellowner.org | www.groundwateradventurers.org
ngwa: dedicated to advancing groundwater knowledge
join us december 10-13 in new orleans, louisiana, for the 2009 ngwa ground water expo
John Mastor
If all the homes (or at least the new homes) were built and equipped with GSHP systems, our electric demand would be reduced +/-40% FOREVER! Millions of jobs would be created in the drilling, installation and supply businesses. This is the "C.A.F.E. standard" for the home building industry; the MPG if you will for a home.
The intended billions of federal funding, from the stimulus package or whichever proposed major spending package, for research into "alternative" and "effiecient" energy sources would be better spent on a proven and environmentally benign technology.
Working for a supplier in this business, we have seen an increase in the number and scope of these projects, Ball State University is one currently ongoing notable example, but it is not attracting the widespread utilization that should be expected.
This technique should be mandated on all new home construction and retrofitted to any home that is in need of a new furnace / air conditioner / heat pump etc. No transmission right of ways, most homes are actually built on their own ground, no loss of bird life (as from windmills), no noise generation, no viewshed damage and no rare industrial elements or heavy metals (as used in PhotoVoltaic cells). There are no downsides.
The amount of available energy is trulylimitless.
John M.
________________________________
From: blmailer-thewell=ngwa.big...@biglist.com [blmailer-thewell=ngwa.big...@biglist.com] On Behalf Of Mike Krautkramer [mkraut...@robinson-noble.com]
Sent: Wednesday, September 30, 2009 1:10 PM
To: the...@ngwa.biglist.com
Subject: RE: [The Well] Input sought on ground and groundwater source heat pumps
Trisha,
Though I do not know enough about this stuff to be of any help, I can strongly recommend Larry Gregory of Gregory Drilling. Larry is an accepted guru in the Pacific Northwest with regard to groundwater source heat pump installation, marketing and regulations, and has been an active member of NGWA for a long time. His expertise would represent the issues of the Pacific Northwest very appropriately and I am sure he will participate if asked.
Mike
-----Original Message-----
From: blmailer-thewell=ngwa.big...@biglist.com [mailto:blmailer-thewell=ngwa.big...@biglist.com] On Behalf Of Trisha Freeman
Sent: Wednesday, September 30, 2009 6:28 AM
To: the...@ngwa.biglist.com
Subject: [The Well] Input sought on ground and groundwater source heat pumps
NGWA is serving on a Department of Energy advisory group working to identify actions that could have a substantial impact on the deployment and market penetration of ground and groundwater source heat pumps. Actions might include technology improvement and cost reduction, new business models, better data and tools for decisions, and the right types of policies. We would value your own thoughts for us to share with the advisory committee.
trisha freeman | membership and marketing director |
national ground water association |
601 dempsey road | westerville, ohio 43081 | usa |
800 551.7379 (614 898.7791), x 540 | fax 614 898.7786 |
tfre...@ngwa.org|
www.ngwa.org<http://www.ngwa.org/> | www.wellowner.org<http://www.wellowner.org/> | www.groundwateradventurers.org<http://www.groundwateradventurers.org/>
ngwa: dedicated to advancing groundwater knowledge
join us december 10-13 in new orleans, louisiana, for the 2009 ngwa ground water expo
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kent Madison
John could not have said it better. The open and closed loop system for
both homes and businesses could provide a tremendous amount of saved and new
energy. I am currently working on a new system that will allow the injection
of warm AC discharge water into the deep aquifer while generating
electricity and pulling cool shallow aquifer water for the source of the AC
system all out of the same hole. This system then operates in reverse during
the winter and recovers the warm stored water for improved heating in the
winter and it will discharge the cold water back into the upper aquifer.
This increases the efficiencies of the system and has NO net gain or loss to
the aquifer system. All this can be done while generating enough electricity
to reduce the total system power cost by as much as half the total. Another
new technology is ASR Generation where we can generate electricity while
doing ASR using the same pump and motor that we currently own. But to do
that you currently have to get a FERC permit. That is not a pleasant process
and cost time and money. If the primary use of the water and well is for ASR
them we should be allow to recover the head energy as a secondary benefit
with out having to get a hydro license. What stops this kind of technology
from becoming main stream is the government permitting processes that are
long and costly. If the Department of Energy wants us to save or make energy
then tell them to get out of our way and let us solve these problems without
all the government oversight.
Kent
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Kent Madison
29299 Madison RD
Echo Oregon 97826
541 376 8107 office
541 571 0581 cell
Mike Krautkramer
but not nearly as knowledgeable about it as John and Kent. I know it is the
best of the "low hanging fruit" with regard to meaningful contributions to
solving our energy consumption problems.
Mike
all the government oversight.
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Brennan, Michael
(I had originally just sent this to Trisha, but felt I should share my thoughts with the entire group after reading the last few responses).
Trisha-
This might relate to policies, but the ability of State/Local regulators (including health departments) to come up with specific regulations (including permitting) regarding the installation/construction of ground/groundwater heat pumps seems very important to their deployment/growth. The Michigan Department of Environmental Quality (DEQ), Well Construction Unit, conducted a survey back in 2008 to determine the level of state regulation of geothermal heat pump well installation. The tabulated data indicates:
· Thirty states regulate the construction of borings used with geothermal closed-loop systems.
· Forty-five states regulate the construction of wells used with geothermal open-loop systems.
· Eleven states require a specialty license, registration, or certification for geothermal heat pump boring/well installers
This seems to indicate inconsistency across the nation and in some States the lack of regulations which could contribute to growth instability to the ground/groundwater heat pump market. Furthermore, this inconsistency increases the chance of negatively impacting valuable groundwater resources through improper installation/construction practices.
Regards,
Michael A. Brennan, CPG
Project Hydrogeologist
Malcolm Pirnie of Michigan, Inc.
(Offices Nationwide)
645 Griswold Street
Suite 1950
Detroit, MI 48226
Office Tel. #: 313-964-2231
Office Fax #: 313-964-5770
From: blmailer-thewell=ngwa.big...@biglist.com [mailto:blmailer-thewell=ngwa.big...@biglist.com] On Behalf Of Mike Krautkramer
Sent: Wednesday, September 30, 2009 4:10 PM
To: the...@ngwa.biglist.com
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Becker, Art E (West Creek)
From: blmailer-thewell=ngwa.big...@biglist.com [mailto:blmailer-thewell=ngwa.big...@biglist.com] On Behalf Of Brennan, Michael
Sent: Thursday, October 01, 2009 7:09 AM
To: the...@ngwa.biglist.com
Susan Hughes
I agree with the email from Michael Brennan. As a “local regulator”, I issue construction permits for open and closed loops and inspect their installation. Currently the State of MD well regs do not specifically address these wells, as to construction, siting, acceptable anti-freeze solutions, etc. so it becomes necessary for the local authority to determine what is acceptable. There is no consistency among local jurisdictions. Also, as state and local staff are reduced, it may be a real problem to make sure the wells are properly constructed.
Although these systems may save energy, we need to be sure we aren’t creating more significant problems with our groundwater supply in the future. Inadequate grouting of the borehole, causing intermixing of aquifers, especially in coastal areas, is a concern.
Susan Hughes, R.S.
Worcester County Environmental Programs
Snow Hill, MD
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Kevin McCray
NGWA values the input of everyone. For your interest, NGWA and the Ground Water Protection Council, the Geothermal Heat Pump Consortium, and the International Ground Source Heat Pump Association are cooperatively funding a very comprehensive survey of state regulatory practices related to ground and groundwater source heat pump system installations. We expect the survey to be ready for distribution yet this fall with an aim for the results to be available in early 2010. It will be a detailed and complex survey, but it has been crafted with excellent input from state regulators. We recognize that regulation of these systems may occur a more local government level than state government.
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Tim Parker
From: blmailer-thewell=ngwa.big...@biglist.com [mailto:blmailer-thewell=ngwa.big...@biglist.com] On Behalf Of Mike Krautkramer
Sent: Wednesday, September 30, 2009 4:10 PM
To: the...@ngwa.biglist.com
Subject: RE: [The Well] Input sought on ground and groundwater source heat pumps
Trisha,
Though I do not know enough about this stuff to be of any help, I can strongly recommend Larry Gregory of Gregory Drilling. Larry is an accepted guru in the Pacific Northwest with regard to groundwater source heat pump installation, marketing and regulations, and has been an active member of NGWA for a long time. His expertise would represent the issues of the Pacific Northwest very appropriately and I am sure he will participate if asked.
Mike
-----Original Message-----
From: blmailer-thewell=ngwa.big...@biglist.com [mailto:blmailer-thewell=ngwa.big...@biglist.com] On Behalf Of Trisha Freeman
Sent: Wednesday, September 30, 2009 6:28 AM
To: the...@ngwa.biglist.com
Subject: [The Well] Input sought on ground and groundwater source heat pumps
NGWA is serving on a Department of Energy advisory group working to identify actions that could have a substantial impact on the deployment and market penetration of ground and groundwater source heat pumps. Actions might include technology improvement and cost reduction, new business models, better data and tools for decisions, and the right types of policies. We would value your own thoughts for us to share with the advisory committee.
trisha freeman | membership and marketing director |
national ground water association |
601 dempsey road | westerville, ohio 43081 | usa |
800 551.7379 (614 898.7791), x 540 | fax 614 898.7786 |
tfre...@ngwa.org|
www.ngwa.org <http://www.ngwa.org/> | www.wellowner.org <http://www.wellowner.org/> | www.groundwateradventurers.org <http://www.groundwateradventurers.org/>
ngwa: dedicated to advancing groundwater knowledge
join us december 10-13 in new orleans, louisiana, for the 2009 ngwa ground water expo
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john...@comcast.net
I’m going to suggest that this is a case of making something way more difficult than it actually is. Vertical closed loop heat pump systems can be very effective. A critical aspect in attaining a most efficient system is the grouting of the vertical piping in the borehole. When the vertical borehole is properly grouted, not only is the heat transfer maximized, the vertical movement of water is eliminated. There would be no intermingling of waters from different aquifers; there would be entrance of surface contamination; if there was leak in the system piping, there would be no movement of the circulating fluid of the system to the formations; and when the system is abandoned, the abandonment procedures aren’t as critical because the ground is already effectively protected.
This system is basically constructing a borehole, installing the piping, and grouting. The requirement that the borehole be grouted from the bottom to the top is what makes this system unique. The construction and grouting of the gwhp vertical borehole is ideal for a national standard. The skills required of the driller of the vertical closed loop borehole are considerably less than the skills required of a water well driller. And the required skills of the driller of the closed loop vertical borehole are uniform across the country. A national certification is feasible.
All indicators strongly suggest that this is an industry that will rapidly expand. Having a national standard and a national certification will provide optimal protection of the aquifers, maximum heat transfer for the consumer, and uniform, consistent regulations for the regulators and contractors. Whether at the state, county, or local level, everything would be the same.
Whether the traditional 2 piping system is installed in the borehole or a 4 pipe system is installed, or an integrated self-contained system is installed , or a DX system is installed, the bore hole construction and the grouting are the same.
With this consistency, uniform permitting requirements can be established. The only variable would be the permitting fee. The permitting fee should reflect the varying regional costs of inspecting the systems.
I understand that this approach is fairly straight forward and simple. I also understand after spending 24 years on the State of Illinois Department of Public Health Water Well Contractor and Pump Installation Contractor Licensing Board that anything involving a legislature is anything but straight forward and simple.
John Pitz
N. L. Pitz, Inc.
State Contractor License #102-002049
----- Original Message -----
From: "Trisha Freeman" <tfre...@ngwa.org>
To: the...@ngwa.biglist.com
Sent: Wednesday, September 30, 2009 8:28:29 AM GMT -06:00 US/Canada Central
Subject: [The Well] Input sought on ground and groundwater source heat pumps
NGWA is serving on a Department of Energy advisory group working to identify actions that could have a substantial impact on the deployment and market penetration of ground and groundwater source heat pumps. Actions might include technology improvement and cost reduction, new business models, better data and tools for decisions, and the right types of policies. We would value your own thoughts for us to share with the advisory committee.
trisha freeman | membership and marketing director |
national ground water association |
601 dempsey road | westerville, ohio 43081 | usa |
800 551.7379 (614 898.7791), x 540 | fax 614 898.7786 |
tfre...@ngwa.org|
ngwa: dedicated to advancing groundwater knowledge
join us december 10-13 in new orleans, louisiana, for the 2009 ngwa ground water expo
Joe Dobry
Indeed, there is much inconsistency about regulating the installation of groundsource heat pump systems. It should be up to NGWA and IGSHPA to work together toward a reasonable solution to groundwater protection in the heat loop well area. Recent work has been done toward that with the revision of the NGWA manual for installation of heat loop systems.
Devising a nationwide approach to this will probably never get to the point of complete agreement—too much divisional/political/environmental turf protection—Texas has statewide rules in place, but now also has many Groundwater Conservation Districts, the Texas Commission on Environmental Quality, the Texas Water Development Board, and the Texas Department of Licensing and Regulation. Add these to county jurisdictions (254) and it is becoming a mish-mash of rulings that many times are in conflict.
The end may be a federal control situation and I don’t believe any of us want that to happen.
Joe Dobry
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