How 82 Canadians Feel About CRA Employee Incompetency :CCRA SOTW
Alan Baggett
couple who phoned the CRA 12 separate times and got 12 different and
sometimes conflicting answers to the exact same question.
Here is how the first 41 Canadians responded:
1 Brad Reddekopp from Hazelton, Canada writes: Yeah, it's pretty
important to get clear and accurate answers when you're trying to
figure out how much the government is allowed to steal from you.
2 John Laws from Alberta, Canada writes: Many of the people on these
phone lines at CRA are just out of school and are just repeating
answers by route. When asked a question out of the norm, most don't
really know but they try to give an answer anyway. Some of these people
on the phone lines at CRA go on to be very intelliegnt tax accountants
and auditors . . . unfortunately, many don't so they just sit on the
phone lines and give answers by route.
3 Christine Jones from Saint John, Canada writes: A friend of mine had
a similar experience with the EI phone lines when she had a question
about her maternity leave benefits. She was given different information
each time she called. Perhaps the phone operators at these federal
offices should be trained to say, 'I'll have to check into that and get
back to you,' when they don't know the answer.
4 Jean Chretien from Calgary, Canada writes: Never trust the CRA for
anything. It's not their job to help you, that's your job. Their job is
to find as much money for the CRA as possible. Get a good tax lawyer or
accountant, just like you should never ask the police or the government
for legal advice. Look out for yourself because you can darn sure that
the CRA is looking out for themselves.
5 Gord Cee from Canada writes: What's the surprise news here?
Government bureaucrats and service employees are lazy, overpaid,
uncaring, unionized and generally dumb. What most of them need is to be
enrolled in a customer service training course but CUPE would never
allow anything as revolutionary as that. We get lousy service and we
would get about the same lousy service with about 50% fewer government,
so called, workers so I say fire half
6 Jimmy K from Toronto, Canada writes: Glad to see they finally won
after being sent to help-line hell by CRA. Unfortunatly, if it was me
in that situation, I probably would have just given up and sent them
the damn money like the time 3 years ago a Bell Canada 'billing error'
pulled four months of service from my bank account. Guess one of the 8
people I talked to forgot to send me that refund cheque. Problem is,
when they have your money, they have no real incentive to get things
right and give you your money back, so they might as well give you the
run around, give you 12 different answers, and most people will throw
their hands in their air and quit.
7 Craig Cooper from Toronto, writes: The simple fact is, the tax system
is far too complicated and unbalanced. Let's abolish taxes and make our
governments fund themselves the way everybody else must -- by EARNING
it!
8 Border Crossing from East Coast, Canada writes: My advice, even
though it is a lot of bother, is to do everything by snail mail. Keep a
copy of everything and if you receive a phone call ask for a letter
detailing their (revenue Canada) concerns or comments.
9 Gone Forever from Canada writes: The tax system in this country and
those who enforce it have no respect for small business owners, the
more honest you are and the harder you try to do the right thing, the
more visible target you become. My best advise to small business
owners, go underground, don't claim any expenses and don't declare any
income. Unless you're an accountant, a lawyer or employed with Revenue
Canada, you haven't got a hope in hell of getting fair treatment from
this department.
10 A.S. Morris from Napanee, Canada writes: Score one for the little
guy. I can fully understand the confusion and frustration that this
couple endured. Some time ago I attempted to appeal a decision with the
Ontario Minister of Finance which was the result of an error made by a
clerk in the Department of Motor Vehicles. Needless to say the hurdles,
loops and hoops that I had to go through were not worth the aggravation
of the $288.00 that I was assessed (fined) as a result of the clerk's
error. It cost me approx. $375.00 before I decided to drop my appeal -
or on other words - cut my losses and save myself further frustration.
The bureaucracy in this country, at all levels of government, seems to
be growing at an exponential rate with goverment employees being very
adept in playing the run around game.
11 Bethia MacPherson from Halifax, Canada writes: Just the other day, I
contacted CCRA to inquire about my 2005 return. How is it that a total
stranger at their end can ask me my full name, current address,
birthdate, length and location of my employment, the income earned on
line 150 of my return and the guy as snappy and unprofessional as he
was, does not even have to provide his last name? What kind of
rationale is that? He knows all kinds of confidential information about
me, I know absolutely nothing about him...mmmm. From my perspective, I
should be able to contact him directly or at least provide his name to
another agent if I have any concerns whatsoever, after all, my taxes
are paying his salary right?
12 G. Sam from Stratford PEI, Canada writes: This situation should be
very familiar to all taxpayers! There has been no improvement in
efficiency at CRA resulting from the huge increase in email filing of
tax returns. Instead the staff have become even slower in dealing with
the lessened work load. More staff has been reassigned to 'auditing'
accounts. It should be obvious that less manhours should be required to
review the available computer generated documents, and that should
result in improved service. Instead the system now seems to drag its
feet as long as possible to ensure that 'interest' can be applied to
audited accounts. And the interest charged is higher than the Bank of
Canada interest rate, approaching the usurous interest rates charged by
Credit Card companies.
13 Charles Hoppe from Weymouth, Nova Scotia., Canada writes: The civil
servants at the other end of the 1-800 line are mostly well meaning and
work with the training that they have received. From time to time you
might encounter someone who 'got up on the wrong side of the bed'. The
problem lies with the management of the CRA. Not enough training before
people start answering phone calls from the public and perhaps a
computer system that just is not comprehensive enough. The judge
obiously thought that we have a right to expect consistency from an
agency such as CRA. It is the duty of the Civil Service to provide this
consistency. If they fail in this duty someone needs to design and
execute 'Plan B'.
14 Haywood Jablomey from Canada writes: The UK adopted a system some
years ago where one government employee became the contact point for a
taxpayer - the gov't employee treats the taxpayer as a client in
guiding all tax related enquiries and issues. This system promotes
gov't accountability to the taxpayer by eliminating the pass-the-buck
culture that exists in any call centre, gov't or otherwise. Great way
for the gov't to know its clients, and for the taxpayer to get
effective service.
15 anu bose from ottawa, Canada writes: The lack of accurate
information is a result of the extensive use of call-centres-a low-paid
unskilled form of employment.
16 grealy ted from Canada writes: Typical government waste and
inefficiency. You can bet that those Canada Revenue employees are still
getting their salaries, taxpayer paid benefits, taxpayer paid holidays,
paxpayer paid pension, taxpayer paid call-in-sick days off etc. And now
the Johnson's doan't even have a business to operate and gain
self-employment income. The usual government travesty, corruption and
total rip-off of the taxpayer. When is the average Canadian going to
wake up and realize that the typical government organization (federal,
provincial, municipal, etc.) is corrupt and engages in behaviour that
is criminal in nature. But, the typical Canadian keeps on working to
support government workers who get extended holidays, e.g., while the
typical Canadian checks in at work, away from their family, to support
(via paying taxes) the lifesyle of these overpaid and inefficient
(gov't.) 'workers'.
17 frank sapara from Watson Sask, Canada writes: I've had a similar
experience a few years back. May be wise to begin recording future
conversations in order to back any repercussions due to the
incompetence of these poor overworked and underpaid civil servants.
18 Davo _ from Ottawa, Canada writes: I have faced a similar situation
with the CRA and I'm soooo glad someone has finally been successful in
making the point stick publicly to the CRA! The judge should have
ordered the Tax Revenue Agency to pay the couple for the time lost
phoning its 1-800 number and for the mess they had to go through...
which any lawyer would have charged more than $3,500 dollars for!
19 Scott McAllister from Canada writes: Typical ...thats why their is a
great need to change business and personal tax to a simplier
form...even CRA don't know what they are doing. One thing that the
gov't should do is stop giving subsides to Business but instead lower
the tax and simplfy the tax for all business instead of a few business
..like Nortel , Bombardier,Canadian steamship lines (paul Martin)
20 D I from Toronto, Canada writes: The CRA are a bunch of bullies who
think what they say is always right and don't challenge. Well, finally
a win for the small guy! Never let the gov't push you around, we as
taxpayers have rights, and I salute the Johnsons for standing up to
this group of bullies we call the CRA.
21 Gardiner Westbound from Toronto, Canada writes: Dealing with the
Revenue Canada, or whatever they're called this week, call center can
be frustrating and risky unless protective measures are taken.
Operators are not required identify themselves by name or employee
number, often provide incorrect and contradictory information, and are
not responsible for the financial and other consequences for providing
misinformation. Taxpayers should record all conversations, date and
file the tapes for defence purposes.
22 P C from Canada writes: CRA is entitled to it's entitlements. Don't
ask questions, just pay up. Forget about earning a living or improve
your standard of living in Canada. It's a lost cause. Taxed to death
and no questions asked. You won't get any answers anyway.
23 jiri z from Canada writes: What a strange story! Two comments: 1)
The tax laws have become quite convoluted - couple that with the low
level of any ability of people in any government organization and the
result is inevitable, 2) How would all this cause the hapless couple to
drop both businesses??
24 Seb D from Ottawa, Canada writes: Bad customer service is not
limited to the federal government, as commentor # 6 will attest. I hear
horror stories like that about Bell all the time.
25 William Moore from Toronto, Canada writes: This particular case
speaks volumes for the agressive collection tactics of CCRA & their
'guilty until proven innocent' attitude towards those in comparatively
low tax brackets. It also speaks to the culture & nature of the agency
wherby no one will accept responsibility for error & the CYA process is
firmly entrenched in the system. Double speak & confusion are the tools
of their trade & assistance to individuals caught up in the maze is an
unknown concept. It would be interresting to find out how much time &
effort finally went into this case after the proverbial manure hit the
fan & these individuals took them to task in court. The majority of
canadians are honest, if somewhat reluctant, tax payers & should be
treated with less attitude & more respect by those we pay to take our
money.
26 Gary Wadham from New Westminster, Canada writes: ''Be damn careful.
Be damn careful.' Yes, Indeed. First, record all your telephone
conversations with the CRA and make sure you write a transcript with
the date and time of the conversation. Second, double register any
letters or forms you send them. The letters will be lost anyway and
faxes will never be received. Email is not allowed as it is too easy to
trace. After you have pointed out the conflicting information you have
received and informed them that the letter they requested has been in
their office for ten days your file will be transferred to a hostile
and aggressive individual who will inform you that everything you've
done so far is wrong. As well, all matters will be delayed as long as
possible. I filed my tax return a day late, (my fault of course), and I
received my Notice of Assessment yesterday complete with ten weeks
interest and penalties.
27 Pierre B from Trois-Rivières, QC, Canada writes: The snail mail
approach makes sense: at least you will have a paper trail to put up
against theirs. Why can't the CRA staff have a 'badge number': if it's
good enough to identify a cop on the street (Toronto's finest are
currently opposing the idea of name tags to go with badge numbers, but
that's another story). If the CRA staff were compelled to give you a
badge number whenever you spoke to one of them, you would at least have
a modicum of traceable identification for the person who gave you
whatever advice. Besides, identifying themselves would be a step in the
direction of responsible answers from these anonymous Toms, Dicks or
whatever.
28 GAP GAP from Winnipeg, Canada writes: Earlier Haywood Jablomey from
Canada writes: The UK adopted a system some years ago where one
government employee became the contact point for a taxpayer - the gov't
employee treats the taxpayer as a client in guiding all tax related
enquiries and issues. Now this makes perfect sense, so that is probably
why it will not be instituted. It makes for consistant information,
right or wrong, and holds CCRA and it's employee accountable.
29 Lowen Wrainger from Tory On Toe, Canada writes: Whoa!! You think
that section of the burr-awkward-see is screwed up. Just try dealing
with adjustments for child support payments, and it makes no difference
whether you're the payer or recipient. It's always the same story...
the people who you thought were designated to help you along the paper
path don't know up from down and hide behind the anonymous veil.
30 Kay Ay from East of To, Canada writes: Personal experience: Filed
for mat. leave, had the baby, went back to work on exactly the day I
indicated to EI. TWO & A HALF YEARS LATER: nasty notice that I'm a
criminal for returning to work early and still collecting EI (had to
make two phone calls to figure out what they were talking about). When
I filed for EI they changed the date on my claim to it over-ran my
intended & actual return date. It took 8mos, more than a little stress
and bungling for two govenment depts who blamed each other for the
errors....I wrote two refund cheques and got $100 back. And of course
my taxes paid for my irritation! Isn't it great!
31 L White from Ottawa, Canada writes: #15 -- FYI: Call centre
employees for EI (and I'm assuming CRA's would be comparable) are CR05
classifications, so they make $43826 and $47447 per year. This hardly
qualifies as 'low paying' to me. My experience with customer service
(and I don't think that there's much of a difference between the
private and public sectors -- we just get more outraged with the latter
because we're paying them with our tax dollars) is that when things go
wrong, they go really wrong. This seems to be one of those cases. Let's
remember that we only hear about the bad cases -- the millions of
'good' calls get no media attention.
32 Fred Stubbs from Burlington, Canada writes: I'm not a big defender
of the CRA but why didn't Johnston go to the Tax Service office in
Charlottetown and sit down with a Tax Officer and discuss this case in
person? It seems to me, in this case, the taxpayer caused as much
stress for himself as the CRA did. I think after about 2 phone calls,
not 12, I would have packed up my tax records and gone directly to
Charlottetown and got this matter resolved in person.
33 lawrence laamanen from Toronto, Canada writes: Mr. Gordon Cee (#5)
The following is provided to help you to be a better informed consumer.
The Canadian Union of Public Employees (CUPE) generally represents
Provincial workers and the Public Service Alliance of Canada (PSAC) is
the largest representative for Federal workers, including, in this
case, CCRA.
34 Shane Mason from Toronto, Canada writes: What I don't get is why
RevCan employees are not required to identify themselves with at least
an employee number, or some other label that will uniquely identify
themselves within the organization. I understand if they don't have to
give last names - their employers don't want disgruntled 'clients'
tracking them down and accosting or assaulting them. It's a pretty
common policy used by call centers to protect their employees (from the
easily predictable blowback of their host company's policies).
Nonetheless, all the call centers I have dealt with (not government
ones) provide other methods of uniquely identifying the service rep,
like operator number, or rep number, or somesuch.
35 Ferd Berfel from Moose Jaw, Canada writes: One would like to think
that the so-called fairness of the canadian democracy would level the
playing field by providing a lawyer to these people at no cost. Seems
unless you are an immigrant you don't qualify for fair treatment by the
government.
36 Lisa Jones from Canada writes: If anyone was being truly honest, the
depth problem is the fact that nearly all of the federal beauracracy in
Canada has been taken over by French Canadians-many centered out of
Quebec, who don`t like English people very much. Much power was given
to French Canadians by giving them jobs now designated `bilingual`and
even moving many federal offices to Quebec; all of that starting with
Trudeau, and continuing with a succession of French-Quebec based prime
ministers. I know you people at the Globe will never print this
letter.....too bad. Have you not noticed the last names of so many
federal `spokespeople` and now foreign service people (look at Lebanon
crises). Soooooo very many are French, and sooooo very few are English,
especially anglo-saxon British Isle ancestry English.
37 Greg H from Toronto, Canada writes: #23: That's a good question... I
was about to suggest that the high cost of hiring a lawyer to defend
them would've been their demise, but then I recalled them saying that
they couldn't afford one... It could've been a stress-related thing
that caused the one / both businesses to go belly-up. Who knows...
38 The Philosopher King from Ottawa, Canada writes: Income taxes quite
simply shouldn't exist. Taxes like the GST are much more fair since
they're not charged on essentials, and you can see exactly how much
you're paying. People may dislike the GST because it's so in your face,
but at least this way you can decide to spend or save and calculate
your day to day costs with more accuracy, rather than wait for the end
of the year to see whether you're up or down. We have this giant
convoluted system that simply wouldn't need to exist if we stuck with
goods and service taxes. The system wouldn't require so many tax
shelters or other 'products' that the banks sell you either. It really
is demonstrably better if people can save for their own retirement
rather than rely on a public system that may or may not exist in thirty
years.
39 Robert Boyd from Windsor, Canada writes: I find it hard to
sympathize with the couple.CRA has a nifty 'Mission Statement' and
frankly, it says that you will be treated fairly and efficiently;ergo,
they must be mistaken.Whoever heard of any enterprize in Canada issuing
a worthless, sef-serving, Mission Statement?My whole world is
crumbling.
40 Alex B from AB, Canada writes: Time to implement a flat tax, and
time to eliminate overly expensive tax lawyers and accountants, and
many pages of the Tax Act and Interpretation Bulletins. The Evil Empire
should not be a bureaucratic impediment to honest business and
employment, but it has become an uncontrollable behemoth. Whew, now
that I got my true opinion out: I'm thinking of specializing in tax,
since I'm already an accountant, but I'm looking for a good way to cash
in on my education. What better way than the tax system, which is too
complex for 99% of the population?
41 Glenn Hawley from Calgary, Canada writes: Our tax 'system' is most
certainly too complex, in large measure due to (possibly well-meaning)
efforts to distort taxation to favour whatever groups or endeavours
that successive governments have wanted to favour. When I first started
paying taxes, I could work out nearly all of it, and then when another
T4 from some weekend part time job arrived in the mail I just had to
add the numbers from the boxes to the other totals, look up the new tax
payable in the table, and send it off. That's impossible now, since all
the calculations have to be restarted from the very beginning due to
percentages being taken of different levels of income to be added or
subrtracted from other different amounts. We have, for example, the
actual total amount of money that we make, the grossed-up total with a
percentage of dividend income added and with tax protected income (eg-
RRSP) subtracted, something called 'earned income', which is some of
the money we made but not all of it and doesn't include money we didn't
make, 'net income' which includes some money we didn't make and doesn't
include other money we did make. In times past we had simple tax
deductions for some expenses, but now instead we take percentages of
various different things and end up with either 'refundable tax
credits' or 'non-refundable tax credits' (and woe betide should you
confuse 'refundable' and 'non-refundable'). It's no wonder that so many
people just take their whole mess off to some tax-preparation company
and pay fees they can't really afford to get their taxes done.
Alan Baggett
AND 41 more...
42 Erika Fecteau from Montreal, Canada writes: Great news about the
ruling. My advice to anyone with a business: hire an accountant to do
your taxes. The money you spend is worth the peace of mind an
accountant brings. Not sure why they dropped both businesses either.
Bit strange, I find...
43 Bella Donna from Vancouver Island, Canada writes: Yesterday I phoned
CRA's 1-800 line and after thirty minutes of waiting was told to call a
different 1-800 number. I called that number and after thirty minutes
of listening to wretched muzak, I was told I needed to call the first
number again. I was too pissed off to call back and phoned my
accountant's office instead. The secretary was quickly able to give me
the information I was looking for. Why couldn't the folks at CRA give
me the same information? What a huge waste of time. Sigh.
44 Fran Hoffer from Canada writes: Part of the reason the CRA is broken
is because they create too much nonsensical work for themselves. After
having lived at the same address for 8 years, I moved 350km for work. I
deducted the moving expenses (only $600) on my next tax return, which
was sent from my new address. The CRA sent me a demand for receipts
(proof) of the moving expenses. If the CRA would waste less time trying
to deprive honest working citizens out of deductions they are entitled
to, there would be a lot less overhead and more time to do things
properly.
45 E MacM from Canada writes: i'm amazed someone would give up a
private business because of 3500 dollars. I agree they must have been
frustrated but maybe they'd have been better off taking their taxes to
a professional to do. I don't think any business unless your an
accountant or really know what your doing, which they didn't, should do
a businesses taxes. Its unfortunate the run around they got, we've all
experienced it in some form or another but I don't think we can blame
the workers on the phone lines they are just doing their jobs. someone
did make a good suggestion if the call line employee is not sure of an
answer don't give it tell them you'll look into it and put them on hold
and check into it, if someone calls 4 or 5 times and tells you they
keep getting conflicting info maybe a manager should be contacted to
verify the info their getting is correct and at this point a name that
they can refer back too. Again the fact they gave up their business
because of a 3500 dollar tax bill instead of going to a professional
like H &R block or any local accountant makes me question their part in
all this. Sometimes taking short cuts costs you more in the long run.
46 Ron Romhanyi from Hamilton, ON, Canada writes: Here's a thought,
do what an acquaintance of ours does every year: put all your stuff
into the CRA envelope and drop it in the mail box sans stamp. Postage
is not required for federal mailings. Let them earn their pay. Works
pretty good too. She checks it afterwards and their spot on.
47 Smart Aleck from Guelph, ON, Canada writes: The CRA sounds like they
are in cahoots with the student loan folks. We had similar problems
with the CSL program. The funniest thing (although it really pissed me
off at the time) was when one person, I'll keep her name from the
forum, started out in one direction, then did an about face, and didn't
even acknowledge that the change she made was significant. 'schedule 2'
and 'confirmation of enrollment' sure sound different to me. And try
asking for a manager. No wonder their service sucks so bad, no one has
a manager that you can talk to. I think there needs to be more
accountability for what gets said on those lines. Write down names,
exact times and information shared. If you have the exact time and
name, they can occasionally track down the recording. I have taken to
recording the calls myself too. Too much frustration.
48 Richard Ball from Charlottetown PEI, Canada writes: I have had
extremely helpful, professional service from the CRA personal Income
Tax people in Charlottetown. Because Charlottetown is small, I am able
to drive out to the tax office and speak to an agent face-to-face. They
have been unfailingly courteous and helpful as I plow through the
various issues that arise.
49 I R from Ontario, Canada writes: Unfortunately, many Canadians (Gord
Cee and grealy ted in particular) need to be reminded that civil
servants - and here's a real shocker - are tax paying citizens too! In
the vast majority of cases, government workers do a commendable job of
serving (some) Canadians who (sadly) can be snotty and entitled people
who have a chip on their shoulder the size of Newfoundland and whose
resentment has often nothing whatsoever to do with the person to whom
they are speaking. While I enjoy my work and have been fortunate to
speak to pleasant people 99.9% of the time, I have absolutely no
problem disconnecting a call when the person becomes verbally abusive.
People obviously forget that niceness goes a long way, so let me remind
everyone that unless you'd appreciate someone coming to your work to
curse, yell and threaten you, please don't employ the same tactics
against others.
50 Ed Mullen from Halifax, Canada writes: CRA is a painful hang-over
from the 'entitlements' era. Their masters in government got rid of all
the friendly, competent staff and trained low cost staff in baffle-gab.
Then they selected the barracudas from the pool to do collections. They
grab bank accounts from pensioners, close down business accounts,
garnishee wages, regardless of ability to pay. If there's money they
can grab, they are merciless. The best defense is to work for nothing.
Why not, there's nothing left after CRA anyway?
51 james m from toronto, Canada writes: Good for the judge! The CRA is
a law unto itself. It's basically a legalized mob, shaking down middle
class Canadians who don't have the means to pay. Note that the judge
strongly recommended that interest charges be waived. And note that CRA
officials declined to comment. I'll bet this couple is still going to
be taken to the cleaners even though it was the CRA that screwed up. We
just have one vote every four years, and after that we're ignored.
52 Dan Weagle from Halifax, Canada writes: This story won't come as a
surprise to most who have had to deal with CRA. Like most government /
union workers they are undertrained and/or simply offer horrible
service/ product. Even attempting to document bad service is very
difficult as you aren't allowed to know the name of the service
provider...it must afford them quite the luxary to know that, for the
most part, they aren't held accountable for their jobs. It is highly
unlikely that government will ever rid itself of unions or the union
mentality and even more unlikely that our tax laws will be simplified
from the ridiclous social-engineering dogma it is now. We might as well
get used to it because not even the Supreme Court could make CRA sit up
and take note.
53 J Luft from Calgary, Canada writes: Governments often use the big
hammer of their (tax funded) lawyers against individuals. The tactic is
very prevalent in municipal government property tax assessment battles.
They use the money of taxpayers to fight the same taxpayers who are
also often paying for their own lawyers. It is a bullying tactic that
needs to be stopped.
54 J Luft from Calgary, Canada writes: To #15 anu bose from ottawa who
says 'The lack of accurate information is a result of the extensive use
of call-centres-a low-paid unskilled form of
employment.'....hmmmm....well, maybe partly but the biggest part of the
reason is that the tax laws of Canada have become so complex due to
their social engineering aspect that they are virtually
incomprehensible. That's something that needs to be tackled.....a
complete rewrite of the income tax laws to bring them down to earth.
I'd suspect the Income Tax Act is bigger than the service manual for
the Space Shuttle.
55 a s from ontario, Canada writes: I am a typical Canadian citizen,
that pays my fair share of typical taxes and I am also a public service
employee (not CRA). I resent the comments for post #5 Gord Cee. I am
not lazy, I definitely am not uncaring and how dare you call me dumb, I
am probably more educated than you Mr Cee . Based on my education, I am
certainly underpaid. Please know your facts before you stick your foot
in your mouth. I was not aware it is a crime to be unionized - get your
unions straight, CUPE is not part of the federal government. You ask
anyone that works in a call-centre for the federal government and you
will realized that it is the management of the government at fault
here, not the people that answer the phones. You are given little
training, and you are paid not much more than minimum wage. I do not
get any better service calling CRA than you do, but I understand
completely what is behind that bad service. Is it right? Hell no.
Before you start cutting a whole group of hard working, taxing paying
citizens(just like you), learn to complain to the right person (MP's),
not the front end workers who have to put up with uneducated, loud
mouth people like you.
56 Vincent Clement from Windsor, Canada writes: I just had a recent
experience with CRA. In the spring my wife and I received a disability
certificate for my oldest son. It was back dated to 2002, which meant
that we could amend my wife's tax returns for 2002, 2003 and 2004. Of
course, we had to request the amendments in writing and provide them
with a copy of the disability certificate. What a waste of time and
resources. They couldn't automatically process the amendments? So I
filled out the appropriate forms, requested revisions for 2002, 2003
and 2004, and mailed the package to CRA. Around the third week in June,
we receive a letter dated June 2 from CRA informing us that they
received the information for 2002. Uh, wait a minute. Everything was in
one package - and does it really take two weeks to receive a letter? We
were going on vacation, so I decided I would call after returning. Well
I called, and after verifying that I was an authorized agent, the CRA
staff member said they could not find a copy of the letter in their
system and that I should just resend the information. Wonderful, I have
to wait another 8 to 10 weeks to receive money that we are owed. Thanks
for the wonderful service CRA.
57 Vincent Clement from Windsor, Canada writes: Only have to give out
their first name? Wow. I work at the municipal government level and my
full name is listed on my business cards, on my reports, even in
notices in the newspaper. I hate it when other government bureaucrats,
especially federal ones, give us other government employees a bad name.
58 Karl Lauten from Nipawin, Canada writes: Please Mr. Harper, get some
professionalism restored in CRA and other federal departments before
they declare themselves independent nations. The arrogance and
incompetence that is conveyed by the telephone answering machines and
the occassional human contact with this and other departments is
obscene. They treat law-abiding, working citizens like criiminals with
rarely any explanation for their actions or the 'numbers' they generate
for 'amounts owing' and seem to be totally immune from direct contact
or any level of accountability for unprofessional and disrepectful
behavior. We all need to help fund these federal nabobs with a fair
level of taxation but at least do not rob us of our dignity and self
esteem in the process.
59 Canadian In Motown from United States writes: I had to call CRA from
the U.S. They wouldn't deal with me through the regular 1-800 number, I
had to call the international office, well the international office
message said that I couldn't access them from the area code (Macomb
county, MI) that I was calling them from. After another few months of
garbage I gave up and sent them 200 bucks more than I believed I owed
them. It's hard to believe that people's livelihoods are dependent on
civil servants on the other end that have no concern or care for the
people they deal with. The apathetic government employee stereotype is
very true. Time for a shake up, privatize those services and see how
long some of those putz's have jobs.
60 Pietro Martienson from Toronto, Canada writes: This is no surprise
to me at all. I've had the CRA re-assess me nearly a dozen times over
the last ten years, each time incorrectly. They also seized my bank
account, then released it, always 'fishing' for the same seven to ten
thousand dollars, seemingly in a blind fashion, and without regard for
the truth, or the law. Someone over there seems to be motivated by
personal gain, and that someone seems to believe they have arbitrary
powers and impunity. It's just like the Toronto residential tax
assessment office, recently blasted by the courts for their corrupt,
aggressive, arbitrary and unlawful harrassment of ordinary citizens. We
need proper oversight in this country, and I suggest the creation of an
Independent Commisssion Against Corruption, a police force that can
investigate the government, the RCMP, anyone.
61 Bill Attercliffe from Canada writes: I've had a similar experience
with the CRA call centre, though fortunately I was calling before I
submitted my return. Four calls, four different answers, four different
sets of forms, all of them wrong. I finally obtained the correct answer
by paying for professional tax advice. However, when I have gone into a
CRA office to seek help with an issue, I've always found the staff
knowledgeable and helpful. Something I should've done in the first
place. To those here making snide comments about government workers,
may I suggest that they try getting into a dispute with one of our
fine, upstanding, large corporate citizens. One bank lost my Visa
payment in an amount that was larger than the taxes in question here.
They treated me as if I was lying about having made the payment,
despite my lengthy use of their card and history of making large
payments. I went through all sorts of BS and costs to have to prove to
them that I had made the payment before they would begin to look for
their mistake. Call centres, both government and corporate are often
useless, serving mainly to insulate the corporation from its customers.
Some corporate call centres won't even talk to you unless you provide a
credit card number so they can bill you, and this is to get support for
their faulty product. The problem here is largely with the call centre
approach that allows anonymous employees to brush off customers with
the tacit consent of their employers. This isn't a problem restricted
to governments, despite the tirades to the contrary posted here.
62 Pietro Martienson from Toronto, Canada writes: In addition, during
my dozen calls to CRA about their numerous re-assessments of my tax, I
verbally asked for the case to be reconsidered, and was told it would
be reviewed at my request. On a later call, the staff confided in me
that no review had taken place or was planned. I think we need an order
from the tax court compelling the CRA to stop lying to the citizen.
We're not suspects in a police line-up.
63 Jane Orion Smith from Toronto, ON, Canada writes: What a fascinating
approach... I have been given the run around on my late mother's estate
for a year and a half. I write, I don't get answers to my questions, I
do what they ask, and yet nothing seems to solve the problem. Finally
filed a notice of objection. The lack of empathy that I was, in good
faith, trying to tie up my late mother's estate and to not get the
assistance one would hope for in such a circumstance just stuns me as I
think of so many others in the same circumstances. Thanks, Johnsons,
you did this for all of us who are frustrated.
64 J R Pacifica from Vancouver, Canada writes: I totally relate to the
couple and applaud the Judge for his dicision. Over the years I have
had to call government instiutions - CRA, GST, PST, EI, City Halls - I
have learned one big lesson which I will pass on to you all. When
dealing with any government department, call a minimum of three times,
and take any 2 out of 3 answers that are the same. Increase the number
of calls to get a ratio that works. If one ran a business the way the
government is run, you would be bankrupt in short order. Government
employees need a reality check and every department needs a good
housecleaning with or without the unions approval.
65 Steve Konroyd from Calgary, Canada writes: Tax laws are complicated.
The very fact that the business owners couldn't fully understand them
illustrates this. Unfortunately, to staff the 1-800 lines with tax
experts (e.g. tax accountants, tax lawyers) would be grossly expensive
& would ironically cost taxpayers much more in terms of CRA staff
costs. While it must be frustrating to receive conflicting advice, this
is predictable when considering the education & training of the 1-800
staff. As for the usual RW whining about 'lazy gov't workers' who
supposedly have fantastic job benefits - if that were the case, then
gov't would indeed (with those supposed incentives) be able to hire
real tax experts to staff the 1-800 lines. As as for the RW tax
evaders/survivalists - I don't appreciate paying for all the services
you have leeched (roads, healthcare, police, fire etc.). Yet most of
you will criticize low/no-income citizens who require services. Truly
the conservative way! Stand Up For Canada! ha
66 G Magrath from The land of people who think, Canada writes: I had
repeated problems with my 2004 return. It got so bad that I demanded
contact information for a real live human being who I could write to in
my regional tax centre. I was provided with a mailing address for the
regional Director of Client Services. It took that person almost two
months to write me back. Worse, I had specifically expressed my
frustration with the policy of anonymity - no full names, no direct
dial numbers; CRA agents only return voicemails in their sweet time and
don't speak to citizens when they call. I had specifically asked that
the person contact me by phone, identify themselves, and provide a
phone number where they could be reached. And can you imagine? The
'Director of Client Services' would not honour me with his or her full
name, nor with a reply phone call, nor with a phone number. After two
fruitless attempts to have my concerns addressed by snail mail I simply
gave up. I don't know what 'services' they are providing, but raxpayers
are obviously not the 'clients'.
67 Brock Vodden from Wingham, Ontario, Canada writes: A friend of mine
sent a cheque for almost $11,000 to CRA 13 years ago. The agency has
never credited his business account with that payment. He has the
cancelled cheque indicating that CRA deposited the cheque in their
account. All these years they have been harassing this friend for the
money and he has paid a lot of money to accountants and a lawyer to
help him get credit for the payment, with no positive result. He
received a letter from CRA acknowledging receipt of the cheque, but
stating that they don't know what account it was credited to. This is
his problem? We have turned the problem over to his MP, who indicates
that someone in the bureaucracy has acknowledged that they may have
goofed. Hope it works this time.
68 S Q from Kingston, Canada writes: Just responses for Anu Bose's
comment CRA employees are low-paid and unskilled. CRA employees are in
fact WELL paid, starting salary for an inbound service line with CRA
ranges between $40,000 - $50,000 with full benefits. A post secondary
education is a for the most part a requirement. 4-6 weeks of supposed
training is provided before someone actually goes on the line to answer
questions. Compare this to the private sector where a starting salary
for an inbound call centre is generally between $20,000 - $30,000. It
is no wonder why taxes are so high.
69 Pete H from Canada writes: The only real answer to CCRA problems
like this, for those not on a T4's, is unfortunately illegal.
Difficulty with filing along with rediculously high taxes are why most
small business oweners in this country work for cash or cheat on their
returns.
70 walter funk from Abbotsford, Canada writes: Interesting article
about CRA. In 2002 I overpaid my 2001 taxes by approximately
$13,000...long story as to why, including being defrauded out of a pile
of money. My accountant has been working every since to get the money
returned. The thing about talking to a different person every time who
knows nothing about the situation is a fact. My file has been lost,
closed and left on the shelf so many times. I recently had my MLA send
a letter which precipitated another round of having to supply
documentation to yet another person unfamiliar with my file who
threatened that if we did not supply the required information within
the specified time, my file would be closed and never reopened. If I
ever see my money again, most of it will surely have to go to paying my
accountant for four years of his time on this. I'm at a loss.
71 Kevin Yeeloong from Oakville, Canada writes: Craig Cooper #7 summed
up my sentiments. Taxes should be reduced and more services be on a
user pay system. Incidentally, how did the Johnstons manage to collect
employment insurance if they had an owner operated business? Are there
some misreported facts here?
72 Bella Lugosi from Whitehorse, Canada writes: I made three return
calls to CRA, at their request that I call them. I got three different
people, one was very snotty. They practically dare you to make a fight
with them. One woman claimed I never called her back. The reality was,
the number she left gave about 11 options, which led to a 'phone book',
in which she was not listed because she was about to switch jobs, etc
etc. This was the norm of my interactions. The CRA is a tangled, inept
and rude mess staffed with people who think you are the enemy and who
think they've got you completely out gunned. I am glad the Johnstones
took this to court and showed them that they will not always get away
with their abrasive incompetence.
73 Nicole Cormier from Armstrong, British Columbia, Canada writes: You
know, income tax was supposed to be a temporary wartime measure in
Canada, to help fund World War I if my memory serves. Once a government
or any group gets a taste of such ill-gotten gains, however, they prove
difficult to give up voluntarily. I have always thought that the tax
filing procedures add insult to the injury that is income tax. How
humiliating is it that they make YOU slave through piles of unreadable
and unintelligible paperwork to figure out how much money they get to
peel off you - any other place that expects you to part with your money
will at least be gracious enough to calculate it for you. I think it is
terrible that this couple had to give up their businesses, and that CRA
policies are set up in such a manner as to soak and then bully a couple
trying to supplement a modest income with some hard-working small
enterprise... Kudos to Post 7. If the government did a single thing to
earn our tax dollars (i.e., like actually representing their
constituents rather than their own agendas), taxes would perhaps not
leave such a bitter taste...
74 Mr Fijne from Calgary, Canada writes: Complicated tax system civil
servants = the least friendly and accountable service. Either they have
a hotline that is legally binding or they should dispense with it. It
will save us time and money and then the service will be useful.
75 G. Veneta from Calgary, Canada writes: The government refuses to
hire experienced accountants as auditors as they don't want to spend
the money on salaries so they harass the mom and pop operations as that
is all they have the experience to do while the big companies get a
free pass as the gov. accountants don't have the education to go after
the big companies. The big companies should be audited period but they
have tax lawyers so the gov't is blind to them and prefers to pick on
the little guys. Our auditor Sheila should be looking into this crap by
Rev. Canada.
76 KR F from Citysmog, Canada writes: Agreeing with Anu, the call
centre business does not require educated people to conduct their work.
Every week you hear about another call centre being created, and it
somehow gives people cause to celebrate 'Yay, more jobs! Less
unemployment.' But there's never a requirement of education needed
because they do all the training onsite. Myself, I think call centres
are a waste of time, and don't get me started on the call centres that
sell over the phone! If you HAVE to call for help, get the employee's
FULL NAME and EMPLOYEE #. I had to deal with an energy company trying
to switch us from Union Gas, we told them every time we talked to them
we were not interested, but they somehow were automatically allowed to
switch us because someone over the age of 18 who lives in the house can
give the go-ahead. We called their head office, and even when we talked
to the secretary, we got her full name and employee #. All the
secretary said was 'well, just wait until electricity becomes
unregulated'. What a response to our 'please help us' Obviously these
people have a job to do, and have a pretty stressful job talking to
crankers like myself which leads to my next question. If most people
don't want to do business over the phone, how do these call centres
stay in business? I know, this has nothing to do with CRA, but it's
just ONE of my call centre horror stories. There's not enough time in
my day to tell them all.
77 stinky swampmule from Canada writes: anyone hear about the guy a few
weeks ago who had the ontario court of appeals rule in his favour
against a tax evasion charge? the man called it theft from the state
and therefore illegal.. and won. just google "Jury says refusal to pay
tax not crime" or "Tax evasion case based on government thievery", and
then re-read this article. it would seem to me that the courts have
been ruling against tax agencies and in favour of canadians alot
lately.
78 Steve Goldstein from Toronto, Canada writes: I think the general
problem with the public service is that they are over paid and very
much underworked. There are those in the minority who do their "fair"
share, but most are there because of their cultural or linguistic
background instead of their merit. There is no accountability and so
much passing the buck around (and fat)! ONE HUGE GRAVY TRAIN !!!
79 Taylor Mathewson from Toronto, Canada writes: RE: #31 The test of
any organisation's customer service is not how often they get it right,
but what they do to correct when they get it wrong. Based on the case
in the article and comments here from people with similar experiences,
CRA screwed up royal, and it and the emplyees who dealt with the
Johnstons deserve every ounce of derision and slagging contained in the
judge's verdict and the comments here.
80 C K from Toronto, Alberta, Canada writes: Hey now! You know it's
very easy to be glib about this but there are two sides to every story.
I'm not going to go into what happened to this couple because obviously
they weren't very well served. This type of runaround can also happen
in private enterprise. Have you ever tried to call Rogers or Bell? My
wife works for the CRA as a tax auditor and I can tell you that she
works many unpaid hours, is totally dedicated and really is not very
well paid for what she does (and no, $40k/year isn't "well-paid"). A
tax auditor in private sector can easily make 3 times what she makes.
She has to put up with abusive people daily (and she's willing to give
people the benefit of the doubt). Of business people are perfect,
aren't they -- not. You wouldn't believe how many small business owners
keep there finacial records stored in a shoe box. These same people
feel that the CRA auditors should do their bookkeeping for them -- but
hey, business people always feel they have the right to be
sanctimonious about the government.
81 Karl Lauten from Nipawin, Canada writes: Holy! Seems there are many,
many victims of this federal "service" and the word I used earlier,
"obscene" (#58) to describe the behavior of CRA may have understated
the problem. I had described it in perhaps an emotional state using a
word derived to describe my own previous and ongoing experiences with
the tentacles of this agency. Please let's have some divine
intervention to correct what is obviously a disgraceful characteristic
of too many government departments! I was once told by a friend that
they need to push like this to collect taxes or else we would not be
able to have the great health care system etc etc ............He was
wrong then and now.....................................what happened to
the idea of fairness and professionalism???
82 harry carnie from Telkwa, British Columbia, Canada writes: My own
experience. There is no "civil"(servant) involved when you ask help
from C.R.S. YOU can be always pleasant, and polite..but you do not
often get the same response.It is truly amazing how "us little guys"
can be hounded to death over "a fewbucks", that is a legal claim, but
they choose to question it.When you consider the infamous privacy
commisioner who was forgiven for owing $800,00 in back taxes...you
cannot help but be pissed off. It would great if this very sensible
judge started a torrent of response from us long suffering
taxpayers........but I have my doubts.
83 jerry johnson from ottawa, Canada writes: my experience with cra: i
was supposed to receive a refund this year, however instead of a cheque
i've got am omnious message directing me to call a 1-800. which i do.
after being asked a gazillion questions about myself to "authenticate"
i am told that "the computer" does not know why i have not received my
money. i've asked how is that possible. the answer was in the form of a
question, and you would better sit down in this one: do i know how much
it would cost if all the info would be stored? for a moment i was
speachless, then i've started laughing which bothered the "it
specialist" at the other end of the line. to #55: if you think that you
are underpaid, there is always the option of finding a more rewarding
job. i assume that when you joined the public service you were fully
aware of the salary as well as the total compensation. if it is so bad
just go and see how the majority of the population makes ends meat.
you'll probably be surprised....
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Miss a Tax Tale Miss a lot!
Click the link for the new, updated and revised CCRA SOTW index!
http://groups.google.ca/group/can.taxes/browse_frm/thread/5a2f8e264e0db530/b86cdd9c5f5e247a?hl=en#b86cdd9c5f5e247a
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Dave
DaveHX.
1. respond to that idiot troll alan bagrott
2. if you feel the need to respond, please do not re-post his idiotic
ramblings
"Dave" <davemcc...@hotmail.com> wrote in message
news:1155318140.6...@74g2000cwt.googlegroups.com...
Alan Baggett
Dave wrote:
> Are you mentally unstable?
Hi Dave,
thank you for taking the time and effort to respond to the weekly
Canada Customs and Revenue Agency Story of the Week (CCRA SOTW). It is
very much appreciated.
The best way to answer a question such as yours is like this - when
people make a comment such as that it is generally a reflection of
their deep seated and inner insecurities.
So, best of luck to you and yours and have a great day!
Alan Baggett
DaveHX. wrote:'
Hi DaveHX,
thank you for taking the time and effort to respond to the weekly
Canada Customs and Revenue Agency Story of the Week (CCRA SOTW). It is
very much appreciated.
The best way to respond to a comment such as yours is like this - as
you don't have the maturity or intelligence to respond in an adult
manner you make an attempt to bring people down to your low levels in
order that you can communicate with them in words that you can more
easily understand. Why not try to grow up (and out) and act in a more
adult fashion.
I sure hope your kids don't grow up to be just like you - what a shame
that would be.
So, best of luck to you and yours and have a great day!
>
>
Greg Carr
questions asked were answered wrong. Keep all reciepts. Record the
conversation if you can.
greg...@hotmail.com
topic most of the time but I wouldn't kf the guy because once in a
while he posts some great items.
Clint Westwood
Can I be no. eighty-three?