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Air Exchangers (Danimal?)
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cloud dreamer
Feb 8, 2012, 12:12:33 PM2/8/12
to
I have a question about heat recovery air exchangers...should I be
feeling cold (as in air as cold as outside) being pumped out from the
exit ducts. In my living room, I had to close it because it made the
room so cold. In my last house, I may have felt cool air, but never
bitter cold.
Thx!
:]
--
We must change the way we live
Or the climate will do it for us
feeling cold (as in air as cold as outside) being pumped out from the
exit ducts. In my living room, I had to close it because it made the
room so cold. In my last house, I may have felt cool air, but never
bitter cold.
Thx!
:]
--
We must change the way we live
Or the climate will do it for us
Thomas Clancy
Feb 8, 2012, 8:14:32 PM2/8/12
to
On Wed, 08 Feb 2012 13:42:33 -0330, cloud dreamer
<TJM...@small.penis> did etch in stone:
>I have a question about heat recovery air exchangers...should I be
>feeling cold (as in air as cold as outside) being pumped out from the
>exit ducts. In my living room, I had to close it because it made the
>room so cold. In my last house, I may have felt cool air, but never
>bitter cold.
>
>Thx!
That depends on the model. Not all exchangers have HRV (heat
recovery) technology. You'll also feel that if the unit (assuming it
does have an HRV core and is functioning properly) is not
balanced/blocked, or the HRV core is dirty, oh, and of course if
someone has "adjusted/closed" the other vents in the home, which then
increases the pressure on the one that's open. For the record, an
average exchanger with HRV core will pump in air that's approx 4-6c
cooler than current house temperature (when it's quite cold outside).
One other final point, turning the heat down in other rooms of the
home when you have an exchanger with HRV core can also cause this
since the HRV transfers what heat it can collect FROM the house
exhaust TO the incoming fresh air. For example, if it's sucking in
cold air from your house, it should be no shock that the freezing
fresh air coming IN is not heated before being pumped throughout the
home.
Check the model number on the unit and Google to see if it has a heat
recovery core. Please post your results. :o)
<TJM...@small.penis> did etch in stone:
>I have a question about heat recovery air exchangers...should I be
>feeling cold (as in air as cold as outside) being pumped out from the
>exit ducts. In my living room, I had to close it because it made the
>room so cold. In my last house, I may have felt cool air, but never
>bitter cold.
>
>Thx!
recovery) technology. You'll also feel that if the unit (assuming it
does have an HRV core and is functioning properly) is not
balanced/blocked, or the HRV core is dirty, oh, and of course if
someone has "adjusted/closed" the other vents in the home, which then
increases the pressure on the one that's open. For the record, an
average exchanger with HRV core will pump in air that's approx 4-6c
cooler than current house temperature (when it's quite cold outside).
One other final point, turning the heat down in other rooms of the
home when you have an exchanger with HRV core can also cause this
since the HRV transfers what heat it can collect FROM the house
exhaust TO the incoming fresh air. For example, if it's sucking in
cold air from your house, it should be no shock that the freezing
fresh air coming IN is not heated before being pumped throughout the
home.
Check the model number on the unit and Google to see if it has a heat
recovery core. Please post your results. :o)
Thomas Clancy
Feb 8, 2012, 8:17:28 PM2/8/12
to
On Wed, 08 Feb 2012 21:44:32 -0330, Thomas Clancy
<psx...@hawtmail.com> did etch in stone:
One final thought .... if it was installed properly, they should have
used insulated ducting in the ceiling and/or areas where it will get
below 10c. Pop your head up in the attic and see if you have black
baggy/insulted ducting.
<psx...@hawtmail.com> did etch in stone:
used insulated ducting in the ceiling and/or areas where it will get
below 10c. Pop your head up in the attic and see if you have black
baggy/insulted ducting.
cloud dreamer
Feb 8, 2012, 8:41:18 PM2/8/12
to
specifications. (Enviro Ventilation KMH-150). Pretty sure it's heat
recovery. It has a core just like my HRV in my last house. The one in
this house is 11 years old and I cleaned it last summer. It looked like
it hadn't been cleaned in 11 years too.
The ducting coming out of it is insulated. Not sure about in the attic.
Getting up there would be a chore right now. The room it is in is heated
(no lower than 16 degrees). No room in the house is colder than that.
The cold air it's pumping in is significantly colder. I haven't noticed
any of the other vents being closed. It's a very loud unit too. It's
downstairs and I can hear it clearly in the two rooms above it. (In my
last house, the unit was so quiet, I'd have to touch it to feel the
vibration of the motor).
:]
--
I told you so. You damned fools.
- H.G. Wells
Danimal
Feb 8, 2012, 9:36:13 PM2/8/12
to
Hi CD,
Dr David Suzuki once said, if you combined all the drafts where heat escapes
from the average home, you could fit a basket ball through the hole.
If you have a heat recovery unit, the air from the exhaust in the winter
should never be nipplish, cool maybe, but not actually goose pimple cold. I
know of several people whose heating bills increased dramatically several
have air exchangers and others with heat air recovery units in their homes.
Some people don't know the difference between the two.
If I were you, I'd shut it down during the winter and not even bother with
it unless I was boiling a jigs dinner or had a moisture problem as in
condensation on windows etc.
Here are a few points to consider:
The location of the inlet ducts and what is the temperature setting in that
room and the distance the warm air has to travel, is the door open or
closed?
The duct work in the attic, is it solid metal as in sealed rigid pipe duct
work or is it flex / accordion type ? Accordion type offers a lousy
turbulent air flow
Is the duct work laid on top of the insulation in the attic? The attic
temperature is the same as the outside. What little warm air that is
recovered doesn't stand a chance travelling thru the attic under these
conditions especially if the duct work is flex pipe and not insulated.
What is the fan setting? The fan setting should be low.
The heat air exchanger is really nothing else but a fancy box with a couple
of fans in it. It is supposed to bring in fresh air from the outside and
miser mix it with the heat it stole from the other end of the house and
eliminate dampness. When the temperature dips well below freezing, the
system is pretty much rendered useless as why the increase in heating costs.
You may as well turn the heat up and open the front door , same effect.
If you have an older or a newer poorly constructed drafty home, this will
make matters worse and the system will never work properly.
Sorry CD I can't offer better sound solutions here without physically
looking at the unit and making a proper assessment.
Cheers Dan
"cloud dreamer" <TJM...@small.penis> wrote in message
news:FPGdne8Rq-uZMK_S...@supernews.com...
Dr David Suzuki once said, if you combined all the drafts where heat escapes
from the average home, you could fit a basket ball through the hole.
If you have a heat recovery unit, the air from the exhaust in the winter
should never be nipplish, cool maybe, but not actually goose pimple cold. I
know of several people whose heating bills increased dramatically several
have air exchangers and others with heat air recovery units in their homes.
Some people don't know the difference between the two.
If I were you, I'd shut it down during the winter and not even bother with
it unless I was boiling a jigs dinner or had a moisture problem as in
condensation on windows etc.
Here are a few points to consider:
The location of the inlet ducts and what is the temperature setting in that
room and the distance the warm air has to travel, is the door open or
closed?
The duct work in the attic, is it solid metal as in sealed rigid pipe duct
work or is it flex / accordion type ? Accordion type offers a lousy
turbulent air flow
Is the duct work laid on top of the insulation in the attic? The attic
temperature is the same as the outside. What little warm air that is
recovered doesn't stand a chance travelling thru the attic under these
conditions especially if the duct work is flex pipe and not insulated.
What is the fan setting? The fan setting should be low.
The heat air exchanger is really nothing else but a fancy box with a couple
of fans in it. It is supposed to bring in fresh air from the outside and
miser mix it with the heat it stole from the other end of the house and
eliminate dampness. When the temperature dips well below freezing, the
system is pretty much rendered useless as why the increase in heating costs.
You may as well turn the heat up and open the front door , same effect.
If you have an older or a newer poorly constructed drafty home, this will
make matters worse and the system will never work properly.
Sorry CD I can't offer better sound solutions here without physically
looking at the unit and making a proper assessment.
Cheers Dan
"cloud dreamer" <TJM...@small.penis> wrote in message
news:FPGdne8Rq-uZMK_S...@supernews.com...
Danimal
Feb 8, 2012, 9:55:03 PM2/8/12
to
It's a very loud unit too. It's
downstairs and I can hear it clearly in the two rooms above it. (In my
last house, the unit was so quiet, I'd have to touch it to feel the
vibration of the motor).
the fan motor could be on its way out, low rpm, brushes laying down,
downstairs and I can hear it clearly in the two rooms above it. (In my
last house, the unit was so quiet, I'd have to touch it to feel the
vibration of the motor).
bushings worn out on the armature, this could be part of or the culprit to
your problem.
"cloud dreamer" <dont....@the.messenger> wrote in message
news:EJydnZDDXN2gua7S...@supernews.com...
cloud dreamer
Feb 8, 2012, 9:57:40 PM2/8/12
to
LOL. Yeah, I had a dryer vent on the outside which was, quite literally,
a softball sized hole in the side of the house.
Thanks for the information. I've learned a few things. I'll get up in
the attic to take a peek. I've noticed some moisture on windows if
something in the room increases the humidity - even filling two drying
racks with wet clothes to dry.
And there are some drafts. I'm tracking them down one by one with caulk,
mono and insulation...and a new exterior dryer vent with a flap
closure...LOL
;]
a softball sized hole in the side of the house.
Thanks for the information. I've learned a few things. I'll get up in
the attic to take a peek. I've noticed some moisture on windows if
something in the room increases the humidity - even filling two drying
racks with wet clothes to dry.
And there are some drafts. I'm tracking them down one by one with caulk,
mono and insulation...and a new exterior dryer vent with a flap
closure...LOL
;]
cloud dreamer
Feb 8, 2012, 9:58:52 PM2/8/12
to
On 08/02/2012 11:25 PM, Danimal wrote:
> It's a very loud unit too. It's
> downstairs and I can hear it clearly in the two rooms above it. (In my
> last house, the unit was so quiet, I'd have to touch it to feel the
> vibration of the motor).
>
> the fan motor could be on its way out, low rpm, brushes laying down,
> bushings worn out on the armature, this could be part of or the culprit to
> your problem.
Perhaps it's worth getting a HRV specialist to take a peek at it.
> It's a very loud unit too. It's
> downstairs and I can hear it clearly in the two rooms above it. (In my
> last house, the unit was so quiet, I'd have to touch it to feel the
> vibration of the motor).
>
> the fan motor could be on its way out, low rpm, brushes laying down,
> bushings worn out on the armature, this could be part of or the culprit to
> your problem.
:]
Thomas Clancy
Feb 9, 2012, 1:29:27 AM2/9/12
to
On Wed, 8 Feb 2012 23:06:13 -0330, "Danimal"
<dani...@thehollywood.bowl.ca> did etch in stone:
>If you have a heat recovery unit, the air from the exhaust in the winter
>should never be nipplish, cool maybe, but not actually goose pimple cold. I
>know of several people whose heating bills increased dramatically several
>have air exchangers and others with heat air recovery units in their homes.
>Some people don't know the difference between the two.
To complicate matters further, HRV or not, some still require manual
adjustments depending on the outside temperature/weather. Especially
those with built in humidistats. If it's not set/adjusted properly,
it's going to increase your discomfort and heat bill.
>If I were you, I'd shut it down during the winter and not even bother with
>it unless I was boiling a jigs dinner or had a moisture problem as in
>condensation on windows etc.
Have to disagree with you there. Winter is the one time it needs to
be on and operated properly (due to windows/doors being closed, colder
walls etc). In the summer is when it is least effective (air is humid,
and folks open windows/doors which renders it redundant). That said,
I keep mine on year round.
>The duct work in the attic, is it solid metal as in sealed rigid pipe duct
>work or is it flex / accordion type ? Accordion type offers a lousy
>turbulent air flow
If it's bare metal it's not up to code. Accordion type may offer more
resistance, but it alone would not account for the cold air. This
(when insulated) is the most common type of ducting found to supply
exchangers (with respect to attics). I have a combination of
galvanized and insulated in my home.
>What is the fan setting? The fan setting should be low.
That depends on the model and her living conditions. Even on low,
those with a built in humidistat (such as the Venmar Pro250) will kick
in on high if it's too humid (based on operator settings). It also
has a "normal" setting that exchanges the air 20 minutes out of every
60, and recirculates in the interim.
> When the temperature dips well below freezing, the
>system is pretty much rendered useless as why the increase in heating costs.
This is a sweeping generalization, and entirely inaccurate. It
depends on the model you have. Again, the Pro250's "Apparent
Sensible Effectiveness" is 83% @ -25C.
If you typically heat your home @ 22C, and it's 0C outside, the
incoming fresh air should come in @ 18C (a loss of 4 degrees, and less
when warmer).
Of course, there are even much more efficient units out there, but at
a cost of less than $800 it can't be beat.
>You may as well turn the heat up and open the front door , same effect.
I replaced my Venmar HEPA 3000 (for use in area up to 3000 square
feet) with the Pro250. Operating the HEPA unit continuously 24/7 on
fresh air, year round, increased my bill by $15.00/month. Hardly the
same effect as opening the door.
That said, I think you may have already solved the puzzle. She has
since mentioned that it is noisy. Typically, an exchanger with HRV
has two blower motors. The motor for removing stale air could very
well be dead or on its way out (hence the noise and lack of actual
heat exchange - again, assuming her model is HRV).
<dani...@thehollywood.bowl.ca> did etch in stone:
>If you have a heat recovery unit, the air from the exhaust in the winter
>should never be nipplish, cool maybe, but not actually goose pimple cold. I
>know of several people whose heating bills increased dramatically several
>have air exchangers and others with heat air recovery units in their homes.
>Some people don't know the difference between the two.
adjustments depending on the outside temperature/weather. Especially
those with built in humidistats. If it's not set/adjusted properly,
it's going to increase your discomfort and heat bill.
>If I were you, I'd shut it down during the winter and not even bother with
>it unless I was boiling a jigs dinner or had a moisture problem as in
>condensation on windows etc.
be on and operated properly (due to windows/doors being closed, colder
walls etc). In the summer is when it is least effective (air is humid,
and folks open windows/doors which renders it redundant). That said,
I keep mine on year round.
>The duct work in the attic, is it solid metal as in sealed rigid pipe duct
>work or is it flex / accordion type ? Accordion type offers a lousy
>turbulent air flow
resistance, but it alone would not account for the cold air. This
(when insulated) is the most common type of ducting found to supply
exchangers (with respect to attics). I have a combination of
galvanized and insulated in my home.
>What is the fan setting? The fan setting should be low.
those with a built in humidistat (such as the Venmar Pro250) will kick
in on high if it's too humid (based on operator settings). It also
has a "normal" setting that exchanges the air 20 minutes out of every
60, and recirculates in the interim.
> When the temperature dips well below freezing, the
>system is pretty much rendered useless as why the increase in heating costs.
depends on the model you have. Again, the Pro250's "Apparent
Sensible Effectiveness" is 83% @ -25C.
If you typically heat your home @ 22C, and it's 0C outside, the
incoming fresh air should come in @ 18C (a loss of 4 degrees, and less
when warmer).
Of course, there are even much more efficient units out there, but at
a cost of less than $800 it can't be beat.
>You may as well turn the heat up and open the front door , same effect.
feet) with the Pro250. Operating the HEPA unit continuously 24/7 on
fresh air, year round, increased my bill by $15.00/month. Hardly the
same effect as opening the door.
That said, I think you may have already solved the puzzle. She has
since mentioned that it is noisy. Typically, an exchanger with HRV
has two blower motors. The motor for removing stale air could very
well be dead or on its way out (hence the noise and lack of actual
heat exchange - again, assuming her model is HRV).
cloud dreamer
Feb 9, 2012, 8:10:47 AM2/9/12
to
Yeah. Definitely time to get a HRV guy to look at it. Question is, the
house will be empty for a bit. Would it be okay to leave it off during
that time rather than risk it breaking down or causing a fire?
cloud dreamer
Feb 9, 2012, 8:12:36 AM2/9/12
to
Danimal
Feb 9, 2012, 11:43:12 AM2/9/12
to
My brother from another mother,
I agree with most of all you said however, many home owners are at the mercy
of shoddy workmanship that went into their home construction.I'm not saying
this instance is or isn't a prime example. Many hidden deficiencies don't
get discovered until months or even years after people move in.
HRV's obviously work and for the most part are effective otherwise they
would not be on the market.
Having said that,
we can both agree the purpose, function and type of HRV is greatly affected
by many variables that would render it useless.
I would venture to guess the model HRV you have would not work properly or
be cost effective in half of the homes in and around st.john's. The reason
being, the unit which bodes well for you as an example, would be at the
mercy due to the lack of quality and ignored building codes not put into
other peoples home construction.
As I stated many times to ng posters in the past,
it's literally impossible to get sound advice online without actually
performing a hands on physical assessment. Everything else is nothing more
than conjecture and a guessing game.
Cheers Dan
"Thomas Clancy" <psx...@hawtmail.com> wrote in message
news:i9o6j7p5eh0t34pv0...@4ax.com...
I agree with most of all you said however, many home owners are at the mercy
of shoddy workmanship that went into their home construction.I'm not saying
this instance is or isn't a prime example. Many hidden deficiencies don't
get discovered until months or even years after people move in.
HRV's obviously work and for the most part are effective otherwise they
would not be on the market.
Having said that,
we can both agree the purpose, function and type of HRV is greatly affected
by many variables that would render it useless.
I would venture to guess the model HRV you have would not work properly or
be cost effective in half of the homes in and around st.john's. The reason
being, the unit which bodes well for you as an example, would be at the
mercy due to the lack of quality and ignored building codes not put into
other peoples home construction.
As I stated many times to ng posters in the past,
it's literally impossible to get sound advice online without actually
performing a hands on physical assessment. Everything else is nothing more
than conjecture and a guessing game.
Cheers Dan
"Thomas Clancy" <psx...@hawtmail.com> wrote in message
news:i9o6j7p5eh0t34pv0...@4ax.com...
Thomas Clancy
Feb 9, 2012, 4:12:05 PM2/9/12
to
On Thu, 9 Feb 2012 13:13:12 -0330, "Danimal"
Now for the shocking ending... my home is 70+ years old! :o)
>My brother from another mother,
>I agree with most of all you said however, many home owners are at the mercy
>of shoddy workmanship that went into their home construction.I'm not saying
>this instance is or isn't a prime example. Many hidden deficiencies don't
>get discovered until months or even years after people move in.
>HRV's obviously work and for the most part are effective otherwise they
>would not be on the market.
> Having said that,
>we can both agree the purpose, function and type of HRV is greatly affected
>by many variables that would render it useless.
> I would venture to guess the model HRV you have would not work properly or
>be cost effective in half of the homes in and around st.john's. The reason
>being, the unit which bodes well for you as an example, would be at the
>mercy due to the lack of quality and ignored building codes not put into
>other peoples home construction.
>As I stated many times to ng posters in the past,
>it's literally impossible to get sound advice online without actually
>performing a hands on physical assessment. Everything else is nothing more
>than conjecture and a guessing game.
>
>Cheers Dan
Absolutely...
>I agree with most of all you said however, many home owners are at the mercy
>of shoddy workmanship that went into their home construction.I'm not saying
>this instance is or isn't a prime example. Many hidden deficiencies don't
>get discovered until months or even years after people move in.
>HRV's obviously work and for the most part are effective otherwise they
>would not be on the market.
> Having said that,
>we can both agree the purpose, function and type of HRV is greatly affected
>by many variables that would render it useless.
> I would venture to guess the model HRV you have would not work properly or
>be cost effective in half of the homes in and around st.john's. The reason
>being, the unit which bodes well for you as an example, would be at the
>mercy due to the lack of quality and ignored building codes not put into
>other peoples home construction.
>As I stated many times to ng posters in the past,
>it's literally impossible to get sound advice online without actually
>performing a hands on physical assessment. Everything else is nothing more
>than conjecture and a guessing game.
>
>Cheers Dan
Now for the shocking ending... my home is 70+ years old! :o)
Thomas Clancy
Feb 9, 2012, 4:13:49 PM2/9/12
to
On Thu, 09 Feb 2012 09:40:47 -0330, cloud dreamer
or not, if you have any electrical device that's suspect, it's always
best to unplug it. I'd prefer short-term stuffy air over being
homeless :o)
<TJM...@small.penis> did etch in stone:
>Yeah. Definitely time to get a HRV guy to look at it. Question is, the
>house will be empty for a bit. Would it be okay to leave it off during
>that time rather than risk it breaking down or causing a fire?
Let's look at this logically. Regardless of whether folks are home
>house will be empty for a bit. Would it be okay to leave it off during
>that time rather than risk it breaking down or causing a fire?
or not, if you have any electrical device that's suspect, it's always
best to unplug it. I'd prefer short-term stuffy air over being
homeless :o)
Thomas Clancy
Feb 9, 2012, 4:23:48 PM2/9/12
to
On Thu, 09 Feb 2012 09:42:36 -0330, cloud dreamer
replaced, myself. Feel free to email f you have any particular
questions. FYI, the Pro250 is also Energy Star certified.
A question for you, though... you said it was allowing cold air to
enter, was the cold air coming from all fresh air registers (vents) -
except for the exhaust that's usually in or near the kitchen/washroom
- or just the one in your original post? If it was only coming from
ONE register, chances are it's just a matter of the insulated flexible
ducting is after coming off up in the attic and what you are feeling
is the cold air blowing down from the attic. Easy test: turn off
unit. After about 45 seconds (enough time for the mechanical intake
to close in the unit) is it still blowing cold air? Either way, a
noisy unit is not normal - of course, noisy is subjective. :o)
<TJM...@small.penis> did etch in stone:
>P.S. How much to replace your unit?
Taxes in, $847.49 (cost of unit). I initially installed both, and
replaced, myself. Feel free to email f you have any particular
questions. FYI, the Pro250 is also Energy Star certified.
A question for you, though... you said it was allowing cold air to
enter, was the cold air coming from all fresh air registers (vents) -
except for the exhaust that's usually in or near the kitchen/washroom
- or just the one in your original post? If it was only coming from
ONE register, chances are it's just a matter of the insulated flexible
ducting is after coming off up in the attic and what you are feeling
is the cold air blowing down from the attic. Easy test: turn off
unit. After about 45 seconds (enough time for the mechanical intake
to close in the unit) is it still blowing cold air? Either way, a
noisy unit is not normal - of course, noisy is subjective. :o)
Danimal
Feb 9, 2012, 9:06:08 PM2/9/12
to
..........with many changes over the years, also built bomb proof with 1''
T&G inside and out. You have two houses in one.
news:ofd8j71mmp6ge29qa...@4ax.com...
T&G inside and out. You have two houses in one.
news:ofd8j71mmp6ge29qa...@4ax.com...
cloud dreamer
Feb 9, 2012, 9:09:34 PM2/9/12
to
On 09/02/2012 5:53 PM, Thomas Clancy wrote:
> On Thu, 09 Feb 2012 09:42:36 -0330, cloud dreamer
> <TJM...@small.penis> did etch in stone:
>> P.S. How much to replace your unit?
>
> Taxes in, $847.49 (cost of unit). I initially installed both, and
> replaced, myself. Feel free to email f you have any particular
> questions. FYI, the Pro250 is also Energy Star certified.
Ah, that's reasonable if I end up replacing it. Is there a
> On Thu, 09 Feb 2012 09:42:36 -0330, cloud dreamer
> <TJM...@small.penis> did etch in stone:
>> P.S. How much to replace your unit?
>
> Taxes in, $847.49 (cost of unit). I initially installed both, and
> replaced, myself. Feel free to email f you have any particular
> questions. FYI, the Pro250 is also Energy Star certified.
dealer/installer that you'd recommend?
>
> A question for you, though... you said it was allowing cold air to
> enter, was the cold air coming from all fresh air registers (vents) -
> except for the exhaust that's usually in or near the kitchen/washroom
> - or just the one in your original post? If it was only coming from
> ONE register, chances are it's just a matter of the insulated flexible
> ducting is after coming off up in the attic and what you are feeling
> is the cold air blowing down from the attic. Easy test: turn off
> unit. After about 45 seconds (enough time for the mechanical intake
> to close in the unit) is it still blowing cold air? Either way, a
> noisy unit is not normal - of course, noisy is subjective. :o)
hatch so I think I'll get up there too and have a look at the attic
while I'm at it.
Thx both!
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