socket error #11004 (motzarella with 40tude dialog)
blake murphy
income...
oops, wrong group.
i'm using 40tude dialog, and tried to switch the newsfeed to motzarella,
but when i went to get all groups, i get back a message saying 'socket
error #11004 (motzarella) (finished).' it does seem to start, with some
kind of counter spinning.
i thought i had had it configured correctly, with:
server: news.eternal-september.org
port: 119
...with, i thought, the proper username and password.
so i was hoping you all could help me with this, as you have in the past
with another problem.
or should i instead perhaps use usenet-news instead of motzarella?
any insights would be welcome.
your pal,
blake
chuckcar
news:1a3ymvsx9ynzr$.y44mv0p6...@40tude.net:
Try again, sometimes it *is* inaccessable because the sysop may be working
on it. If however you can't access it for a whole hour or so, then there's
certainly a problem.
--
(setq (chuck nil) car(chuck) )
Beauregard T. Shagnasty
> i'm using 40tude dialog, and tried to switch the newsfeed to
> motzarella, but when i went to get all groups, i get back a message
> saying 'socket error #11004 (motzarella) (finished).' it does seem
> to start, with some kind of counter spinning.
Did you follow the instructions to set up a *new* account using the
eternal-september server name, downloading all groups, etc etc ? I'm
using Dialog as well (in Wine), and it was a few-minute task to *add* a
new server, get groups, subscribe, test, then delete the old one.
The motzarella named server was shut down 30 June.
> i thought i had had it configured correctly, with:
>
> server: news.eternal-september.org
That is correct, except (see above).
> port: 119
>
> ...with, i thought, the proper username and password.
..the same you were using for news.motzarella.org
> or should i instead perhaps use usenet-news instead of motzarella?
Well, that's your choice, of course. However, your setup error is not a
reason to switch away from a good service.
--
-bts
-Friends don't let friends drive Windows
Sqwertz
> i'm using 40tude dialog, and tried to switch the newsfeed to motzarella,
> but when i went to get all groups, i get back a message saying 'socket
> error #11004 (motzarella) (finished).' it does seem to start, with some
> kind of counter spinning.
I had that the first couple times I switched over as well. It
worked after shutting down Dialog and restarting. Note that it's
best to set it up as a *new* server, then delete the old one. Yes,
you'll to resubscribe.
-sw
blake murphy
o.k., but i had not previously been using the news.motzarella.org feed.
this was a completely new server for me, and it failed downloading 'get
complete grouplist.'
but i'm thinking i may spring for usenet-news because there are some binary
groups i use.
your pal,
blake
blake murphy
o.k., but as i just said to beauregard, this wasn't a re-install of the
motzarella server. i had never used it.
your pal,
blake
Beauregard T. Shagnasty
> Beauregard T. Shagnasty wrote:
>> blake murphy wrote:
>>> i'm using 40tude dialog, and tried to switch the newsfeed to
>>> motzarella, ...
>
> o.k., but i had not previously been using the news.motzarella.org
> feed. this was a completely new server for me, and it failed
> downloading 'get complete grouplist.'
Ok, I wasn't sure exactly what you meant. ;-)
Try:
Server: news.eternal-september.org
Port: 563
SSL: [check the box]
Enter assigned username and password
> but i'm thinking i may spring for usenet-news because there are some
> binary groups i use.
Well, that's one reason... <g>
BTW, go here and get either the Dialog .41 or the .84 executable file
update:
http://dialog.datalist.org/downloads/download.html
VanguardLH
> i'm using 40tude dialog, and tried to switch the newsfeed to motzarella,
> but when i went to get all groups, i get back a message saying 'socket
> error #11004 (motzarella) (finished).' it does seem to start, with some
> kind of counter spinning.
Motzy has been having lots of problems of late. When they switched to
the new server, it was down several times. Then there was a file system
error on one of his hosts. Before the switch to the new server names,
there were connection errors to Motzy that would come in spurts
sometimes a couple weeks apart. You couldn't even telnet into the
server. After the switchover, there seems to be quite a bit of repairs
or maintenance going on that interferes with usability of Motzarella.
Eventually I grew tired of Motzaralla's too frequent (for me)
inaccessibility events. Yes, it's free and that was very much
appreciated but I decided it was time to hunt around for another more
*reliable* free NNTP server. I've since switched to Albasani and
they've been good so far (in fact, response has been a tad faster than
with Motzarella). However, I have not used Albasani long enough to
report on their general reliability. I might end up going back to
Motzarella; however, if that happens, I'll probably go pay the $16/year
for individual.net and hope they are more reliable than either Motzy or
Albasani.
blake murphy
> blake murphy wrote:
>
>> Beauregard T. Shagnasty wrote:
>>> blake murphy wrote:
>>>> i'm using 40tude dialog, and tried to switch the newsfeed to
>>>> motzarella, ...
>>
>> o.k., but i had not previously been using the news.motzarella.org
>> feed. this was a completely new server for me, and it failed
>> downloading 'get complete grouplist.'
>
> Ok, I wasn't sure exactly what you meant. ;-)
>
> Try:
> Server: news.eternal-september.org
> Port: 563
> SSL: [check the box]
> Enter assigned username and password
>
>> but i'm thinking i may spring for usenet-news because there are some
>> binary groups i use.
>
> Well, that's one reason... <g>
>
i'm starting to lean that way.
> BTW, go here and get either the Dialog .41 or the .84 executable file
> update:
> http://dialog.datalist.org/downloads/download.html
i will look into this. right now i have 2.0.15.1 (beta), which must be
*fairly* recent.
thanks, bo.
your pal,
blake
blake murphy
well, i'm pissed that verizon doesn't have all the groups, but they are
ultra-reliable for the ones they do.
your pal,
blake
Nil
news.software.readers:
> Eventually I grew tired of Motzaralla's too frequent (for me)
> inaccessibility events. Yes, it's free and that was very much
> appreciated but I decided it was time to hunt around for another
> more *reliable* free NNTP server. I've since switched to Albasani
> and they've been good so far (in fact, response has been a tad
> faster than with Motzarella). However, I have not used Albasani
> long enough to report on their general reliability. I might end
> up going back to Motzarella; however, if that happens, I'll
> probably go pay the $16/year for individual.net and hope they are
> more reliable than either Motzy or Albasani.
individual.net is VERY reliable - I can't remember them being offline
in the 7 or 8 months since I subscribed. Well worth the small cost. I
only use e-s as a backup. It's too flaky to be my primary server.
Beauregard T. Shagnasty
>> BTW, go here and get either the Dialog .41 or the .84 executable file
>> update: http://dialog.datalist.org/downloads/download.html
>
> i will look into this. right now i have 2.0.15.1 (beta), which must
> be *fairly* recent.
No, it isn't fairly recent. It may even be 7 or 8 years old, as the
original developer has moved on to other things. Another kind soul has
made some minor updates (mentioned above). However, in my opinion, it is
too good of a newsreader to abandon *using* it.
I am also wondering why you don't use Dialog's "signatures" options. See
menu: Settings > Servers, Identities, Signatures... and pick
Signatures in the ensuing window. Add yours there, so it will be
implanted with the proper delimiter (the "-- ").
> thanks, bo.
Please! It's Beau ... never Bo.
John Hosking
> blake murphy wrote:
>
>> thanks, bo.
>
> Please! It's Beau ... never Bo.
Some folks don't know Diddly...
--
John
Me? Ha! I'll have you know that *I* don't know *squat*.
Beauregard T. Shagnasty
> Beauregard T. Shagnasty wrote:
>> blake murphy wrote:
>>> thanks, bo.
>>
>> Please! It's Beau ... never Bo.
>
> Some folks don't know Diddly...
<lol!> There you have it!
--
-bts
-who can't play a guitar for any amount of beans
VanguardLH
> well, i'm pissed that verizon doesn't have all the groups, but they are
> ultra-reliable for the ones they do.
ISPs are dropping newsgroups service. Considering that they don't lose
customers while reducing costs while also reducing their footprint
regarding legal liabilities, especially after the case against
Usenet.com (http://www.theregister.co.uk/2009/07/01/riaa_usenet_case/),
don't get too comfortable that Verizon will continue providing
newsgroups service.
blake murphy
> blake murphy wrote:
>
>>> BTW, go here and get either the Dialog .41 or the .84 executable file
>>> update: http://dialog.datalist.org/downloads/download.html
>>
>> i will look into this. right now i have 2.0.15.1 (beta), which must
>> be *fairly* recent.
>
> No, it isn't fairly recent. It may even be 7 or 8 years old, as the
> original developer has moved on to other things. Another kind soul has
> made some minor updates (mentioned above). However, in my opinion, it is
> too good of a newsreader to abandon *using* it.
>
i guess i should have said i *got* it very recently, presumably the latest
version.
> I am also wondering why you don't use Dialog's "signatures" options. See
> menu: Settings > Servers, Identities, Signatures... and pick
> Signatures in the ensuing window. Add yours there, so it will be
> implanted with the proper delimiter (the "-- ").
>
i don't like canned signatures.
>> thanks, bo.
>
> Please! It's Beau ... never Bo.
i actually thought about that, but was to lazy to spell out 'beau.' my
apologies.
your pal,
blake
Beauregard T. Shagnasty
> Beauregard T. Shagnasty wrote:
>> I am also wondering why you don't use Dialog's "signatures" options.
>> See menu: Settings > Servers, Identities, Signatures... and pick
>> Signatures in the ensuing window. Add yours there, so it will be
>> implanted with the proper delimiter (the "-- ").
>>
> i don't like canned signatures.
Just wonderin', as you seem to type the same sig with every post. That's
like "canned." Note that you can have many different sigs set up, so if
you don't want the default, you pick'n'choose with the click of a
dropdown (see upper right in compose window). You can also overtype what
you picked if you want to make a one-timer.
> your pal,
> blake
Hmmm, what sig shall I choose for this post...
--
-bts
-Given enough coffee, I could rule the world...
blake murphy
i change it sometimes, depending on the post.
your flexible pal,
blake
blake murphy
i musta put a jinx on it. it was down from 10:00 pm last night until 9:30
this morning.
ypb
Beauregard T. Shagnasty
Add two sigs. Name them "Pal" and "Flexible." Mine below (was already in
my repertoire) was named "Indecision."
[sig delimiter goes here]
> your flexible pal,
> blake
Ok, when you manually type it, begin it with a "-- " on a line itself;
that's hyphen-hyphen-space-return on one line. Like below.
--
-bts
-Indecision is the key to flexibility
Sqwertz
> i'm using 40tude dialog, and tried to switch the newsfeed to motzarella,
> but when i went to get all groups, i get back a message saying 'socket
> error #11004 (motzarella) (finished).' it does seem to start, with some
> kind of counter spinning.
I'm getting this constantly now.
-sw
blake murphy
fuck that.
your pal,
blake
blake murphy
what do you think is happening? you seem to me to be pretty savvy about
this sort of thing.
i think i may give up and give usenet-news a try. i think i remember you
trying them at one point - is that so?
your pal,
blake
John Hosking
Well, talk about a sig that isn't one!
I guess it just goes to show that we can't believe everything we read.
--
John
He's not flexible, either.
Beauregard T. Shagnasty
> Beauregard T. Shagnasty wrote:
>> Ok, when you manually type it, begin it with a "-- " on a line
>> itself; that's hyphen-hyphen-space-return on one line. Like below.
>
> fuck that.
>
> your pal,
> blake
--
That's a helluva way to treat your pal, blake.
Indi
That's hilarious, you made me LOL for real.
I was under the impression that this old argument about whether delimited
sigs or simple sign-offs were more proper had reached a stalemate before?
--
indi
_...@jeff_relf.seattle.invalid
I'd kill that line and everything after it.
I kill about 10 such sigs, mostly from Google-Posters.
Whith Google-Posters dominating many newsGroups,
all newsReaders should know now to kill this type of sig.
Gene E. Bloch
Not *my* pal
--
Gene E. Bloch letters0x40blochg0x2Ecom
C.D
"blake murphy" <blakepm...@verizon.net> wrote in message
news:3mvuv2obekt9$.146a3asjw1f1e$.dlg@40tude.net...
try eternal september. motz is gone.
blake murphy
i was using eternal.september or whatever the server name is. i think the
service is still referred to as 'motzarella.'
your pal,
blake
blake murphy
> blake murphy wrote:
>
>> Beauregard T. Shagnasty wrote:
>>> Ok, when you manually type it, begin it with a "-- " on a line
>>> itself; that's hyphen-hyphen-space-return on one line. Like below.
>>
>> fuck that.
>>
>> your pal,
>> blake
>
> --
> That's a helluva way to treat your pal, blake.
wel, your message was beneath the '--'. does that mean it's a .sig?
your pal,
blake
blake murphy
> On 2009-07-10, blake murphy <blakepm...@verizon.net> wrote:
>> On Thu, 9 Jul 2009 15:22:52 -0400, Beauregard T. Shagnasty wrote:
>>>
>>> Ok, when you manually type it, begin it with a "-- " on a line itself;
>>> that's hyphen-hyphen-space-return on one line. Like below.
>>
>> fuck that.
>>
>> your pal,
>> blake
>
> That's hilarious, you made me LOL for real.
we aim to please.
> I was under the impression that this old argument about whether delimited
> sigs or simple sign-offs were more proper had reached a stalemate before?
it seems a perennial.
your pal,
blake
blake murphy
wrote:
> Were I sick of seeing Blake Murphy's "your pal,\n" line/sig,
it seems pretty innocuous to me.
your sweetness 'n' light pal,
blake
blake murphy
well, fuck you then. sheesh.
blake
Beauregard T. Shagnasty
> Beauregard T. Shagnasty wrote:
>> blake murphy wrote:
>>> Beauregard T. Shagnasty wrote:
>>>> Ok, when you manually type it, begin it with a "-- " on a line
>>>> itself; that's hyphen-hyphen-space-return on one line. Like below.
>>>
>>> fuck that.
>>>
>>> your pal,
>>> blake
>>
>> --
>> That's a helluva way to treat your pal, blake.
>
> wel, your message was beneath the '--'. does that mean it's a .sig?
That was intentional and manually added, of course. I just wanted to see
if you'd trim it.
--
-bts
-there are only pals in facebook
Eggs Zachtly
You're quite the clueless little fuck, aren't you.
--
Eggs
-If you must choose between two evils, pick the one you've never tried
before.
_...@jeff_relf.seattle.invalid
I'm not looking at "your pal,\n" 10 times a day,
day after day, so I haven't killed it;
but I could if I wanted to, and I do.
Gene E. Bloch
QED
blake murphy
wrote:
> Constantly changing sigs, aren't really sigs.
>
> I'm not looking at "your pal,\n" 10 times a day,
> day after day, so I haven't killed it;
> but I could if I wanted to, and I do.
knock yourself out, honey. would you prefer i signed every post with 'jeff
relf is an asshole'?
your exasperated pal,
blake
blake murphy
yep that's me. i lack the imagination to think signing 'your pal,
blake' could be offensive. stupid me.
your enemy to the death and beyond,
blake
blake murphy
very learned of you.
blake
blake murphy
> blake murphy wrote:
>
>> Beauregard T. Shagnasty wrote:
>>> blake murphy wrote:
>>>> Beauregard T. Shagnasty wrote:
>>>>> Ok, when you manually type it, begin it with a "-- " on a line
>>>>> itself; that's hyphen-hyphen-space-return on one line. Like below.
>>>>
>>>> fuck that.
>>>>
>>>> your pal,
>>>> blake
>>>
>>> --
>>> That's a helluva way to treat your pal, blake.
>>
>> wel, your message was beneath the '--'. does that mean it's a .sig?
>
> That was intentional and manually added, of course. I just wanted to see
> if you'd trim it.
i tend to include the whole post in my replies, if it's germane.
your pal,
blake
XS11E
> knock yourself out, honey. would you prefer i signed every post
> with 'jeff relf is an asshole'?
I suspect most of us would prefer you just killfiled the asshole as
most have done.
--
XS11E, Killing all posts from Google Groups
The Usenet Improvement Project:
http://improve-usenet.org
XS11E
> blake murphy <blakepm...@verizon.net> wrote:
>
>> knock yourself out, honey. would you prefer i signed every post
>> with 'jeff relf is an asshole'?
>
> I suspect most of us would prefer you just killfiled the asshole
> as most have done.
NOTE: don't reply, I've scorefiled the thread.
houghi
> NOTE: don't reply, I've scorefiled the thread.
OK, I won't. ;-)
houghi
--
"Other than the fact Linux has a cool name, could someone explain why I should
use Linux over BSD? No. That's it. The cool name, that is. We worked very hard
on creating a name that would appeal to the majority of people, and it
certainly paid off [...] -- Linus Torvalds
Eggs Zachtly
It's not that it's "offensive", dumbass. It's the fact that everyone gets
sick of seeing it, and since it's not delimited properly, it's not stripped
(as the sig that it is) when someone replies to your post. *That's* what
you don't fucking get.
[sigsnip]
--
Eggs
When the only tool you own is a hammer, every problem begins to look like a
nail.
C.D
"Eggs Zachtly" <r...@d.thereplyto.header> wrote in message
news:1otu5oy7...@sneupie.eingang.org...
> blake murphy said:
>>
> You're quite the clueless little fuck, aren't you.
> --
>
> Eggs
>
> -If you must choose between two evils, pick the one you've never tried
> before.
ummm...no he's not. actually pretty intelligent .
Mike Yetto
>
> "Eggs Zachtly" <r...@d.thereplyto.header> wrote in message
> news:1otu5oy7...@sneupie.eingang.org...
>> blake murphy said:
>>>
>> You're quite the clueless little fuck, aren't you.
>
> ummm...no he's not. actually pretty intelligent .
>
He has yet to demonstrate his ability to find a clue.
Mike "with both hands *and* a flash-light" Yetto
--
Pluralitas non est ponenda sine necessitas.
- William of Ockham
blake murphy
> XS11E <xs1...@SPAMyahoo.com> wrote:
>
>> blake murphy <blakepm...@verizon.net> wrote:
>>
>>> knock yourself out, honey. would you prefer i signed every post
>>> with 'jeff relf is an asshole'?
>>
>> I suspect most of us would prefer you just killfiled the asshole
>> as most have done.
>
> NOTE: don't reply, I've scorefiled the thread.
yes'm
your pal,
blake
blake murphy
you've seen it, what twelve times here? such a delicate flower.
blake
blake murphy
> Bada bing C.D <notr...@that1place.com> bada bang:
>>
>> "Eggs Zachtly" <r...@d.thereplyto.header> wrote in message
>> news:1otu5oy7...@sneupie.eingang.org...
>>> blake murphy said:
>>>>
>>> You're quite the clueless little fuck, aren't you.
> <leftover sig redacted>
>>
>> ummm...no he's not. actually pretty intelligent .
>>
>
> He has yet to demonstrate his ability to find a clue.
>
> Mike "with both hands *and* a flash-light" Yetto
jesus, they told me the natives here were friendly.
blake
Mike Yetto
Not when the visitors are clue-resistant fuckwits.
Mike "don't let the door..." Yetto
blake murphy
objection, your honor. assumes facts not in evidence.
blake
Mike Yetto
Objectionable fuckwit over-ruled.
Mike "defense unable to recognize evidence" Yetto
blake murphy
> Bada bing blake murphy <blakepm...@verizon.net> bada bang:
>> On Mon, 13 Jul 2009 17:52:12 -0400, Mike Yetto wrote:
>>
>>> Bada bing blake murphy <blakepm...@verizon.net> bada bang:
>>>> fOn Mon, 13 Jul 2009 07:50:31 -0400, Mike Yetto wrote:
>>>>
>>>>> Bada bing C.D <notr...@that1place.com> bada bang:
>>>>>>
>>>>>> "Eggs Zachtly" <r...@d.thereplyto.header> wrote in message
>>>>>> news:1otu5oy7...@sneupie.eingang.org...
>>>>>>> blake murphy said:
>>>>>>>>
>>>>>>> You're quite the clueless little fuck, aren't you.
>>>>> <leftover sig redacted>
>>>>>>
>>>>>> ummm...no he's not. actually pretty intelligent .
>>>>>>
>>>>>
>>>>> He has yet to demonstrate his ability to find a clue.
>>>>>
>>>>> Mike "with both hands *and* a flash-light" Yetto
>>>>
>>>> jesus, they told me the natives here were friendly.
>>>
>>> Not when the visitors are clue-resistant fuckwits.
>>>
>>> Mike "don't let the door..." Yetto
>>
>> objection, your honor. assumes facts not in evidence.
>>
>
> Objectionable fuckwit over-ruled.
>
> Mike "defense unable to recognize evidence" Yetto
let's recap: i come here with a specific problem, clearly outlined, and
while two or three people tried to help me out, i mostly got some demented
netcopery about my non-.sig. meanwhile, none of you hotshots came close to
pointing me to a solution.
so pardon me if i don't think you have the requisite brilliance to call me
clueless.
blake
Indi
>
> It's not that it's "offensive", dumbass. It's the fact that everyone gets
> sick of seeing it, and since it's not delimited properly, it's not stripped
> (as the sig that it is) when someone replies to your post. *That's* what
> you don't fucking get.
>
> [sigsnip]
Well, since it appears you presume to speak for everyone I feel obliged to
mention that IMO there is nothing improper about a simple sign off, nor
anything offensive about using "your pal". Maybe you're just having a bad
day, Eggs?
--
indi
Eggs Zachtly
Nope, no bad day. It's a sig, and should be snipped by those that reply. As
it's not delimited as a sig, it's not snipped and is a waste of space,
time, ad nauseum, for those that reply (or read the replies).
He/she/it was schooled on how to create it as a sig (even specific to their
newsreader), and the reply was "i change it sometimes, depending on the
post" which wasn't the case, until it was pointed out. It was then
explained how to manually (since they presume to manually change it) create
it as a sig (so that it would be properly snipped by those that reply, as
it's never relevant to the post), and he/she/it's reply was "fuck that".
Um... no... fuck them. They either don't get it, or don't care. Either way,
fuckem. =)
--
Eggs
A fine is a tax for doing wrong. A tax is a fine for doing well.
blake murphy
> Indi said:
>
>> On 2009-07-12, Eggs Zachtly <r...@d.thereplyto.header> wrote:
>>>
>>> It's not that it's "offensive", dumbass. It's the fact that everyone gets
>>> sick of seeing it, and since it's not delimited properly, it's not stripped
>>> (as the sig that it is) when someone replies to your post. *That's* what
>>> you don't fucking get.
>>>
>>> [sigsnip]
>>
>> Well, since it appears you presume to speak for everyone I feel obliged to
>> mention that IMO there is nothing improper about a simple sign off, nor
>> anything offensive about using "your pal". Maybe you're just having a bad
>> day, Eggs?
>
> Nope, no bad day. It's a sig, and should be snipped by those that reply. As
> it's not delimited as a sig, it's not snipped and is a waste of space,
> time, ad nauseum, for those that reply (or read the replies).
>
exactly. i think people are smart enough to trim it out when they reply if
they want to. you seem to feel it's just *tooo* much trouble.
> He/she/it was schooled on how to create it as a sig (even specific to their
> newsreader), and the reply was "i change it sometimes, depending on the
> post" which wasn't the case, until it was pointed out. It was then
> explained how to manually (since they presume to manually change it) create
> it as a sig (so that it would be properly snipped by those that reply, as
> it's never relevant to the post), and he/she/it's reply was "fuck that".
> Um... no... fuck them. They either don't get it, or don't care. Either way,
> fuckem. =)
you think i don't know how to construct a .sig? i told you, i didn't want
to.
how about a friendly 'bite my shit' instead?
blake
blake murphy
he's just another netcop blowhard. why they think they're so much smarter
than everyone else is a mystery to me.
your pal,
blake
John Hosking
> blake murphy <blakepm...@verizon.net> wrote:
>
>> you think i don't know how to construct a .sig? i told you, i didn't want
>> to.
>>
>> how about a friendly 'bite my shit' instead?
>>
>> blake
>
> Prick.
(Past) time to stop feeding the troll, kiddies.
--
John
Not that the thread will lose any value.
VanguardLH
> i change it sometimes, depending on the post.
>
> your flexible pal,
> blake
(Not sure I want to get into this but here I go ...)
Sorry, blake, but you NEVER do use a signature. What you add at the end
is not a signature but instead more text that is within the *body* of
your post. In Usenet, the de facto standard is a sigdash line ("-- ")
delimits the start of a signature. In the vast majority of usage,
signatures are ego fluff and almost always off-topic from the discussion
hence why they get stripped from the quoted content in replies. When
replying, the idea is stay on topic (even if a subthread goes off on a
tangent or side issue).
Understand that you are asking help from this community. All
communities have some standards as do languages so there is commonality
in structure to provide understanding. As it is, your pseudo-signature
doesn't add anything to your post as your moniker is already known from
the headers of your post and displayed by all newsreaders (i.e., no need
to repeat it at the end of the body of your post). But if you feel
compelled to add a superfluous fuzzy comfy signature then please make it
a actual signature by adding the sigdash line before it. It would be
polite to those from you ask for help.
What is acceptable in one newsgroup may not be acceptable in another.
You spend the vast majority of your time over in the rec.food.cooking
newsgroup. I don't visit there to know what they consider the standard
for adding a "signature". However, the de facto standard in general for
Usenet and what has been adopted by all newsreaders that I have used is
that the sigdash line delimits the start of a signature. There is no
delimiter for the end of a signature hence why EVERYTHING after the
sigdash line becomes your signature and also why signatures ALWAYS go at
the bottom of your post. Right now you aren't over in your cooking
group. Netiquette here more closely follows Usenet standards (whether
by RFC or de facto standards).
If you argue that it is too cumbersome to prefix your signature with a
sigdash line then it is also too cumbersome to add your signature at
all. You are the one asking for help. You think it wise to rile those
from whom you ask for help? An anarchist attitude doesn't engender
others to come to your aid.
Consider this: when writing your resume, do you compose it in a style
for its expected audience (of employers) in asking them to give you a
job, or do you compose it however you happen to like its style yourself
even though it will probably dissuade the interviewers from putting your
name on their list of candidates? You are the one asking for help here.
You think insulting or irritating your potential audience is going to
generate a want to assist you to solve YOUR problem? If you want to
GIVE help then you have more flexibility since the one asking for help
will probably take whatever they get if it helps. That is not your
situation right now. You are the one ASKING for help.
blake murphy
that's all well and good, but as i recall, this wasn't pointed out to me
without also including a bunch of name-calling. (and no, i didn't consult
the FAQ, if there is one.) so if someone doesn't rigorously follow de
facto usenet standards they can expect a boatload of shit rather than any
help?
blake
Gene E. Bloch
> On Fri, 17 Jul 2009 00:15:00 -0500, VanguardLH wrote:
>
>> blake murphy wrote:
<SNIP>
> that's all well and good, but as i recall, this wasn't pointed out to me
> without also including a bunch of name-calling. (and no, i didn't consult
> the FAQ, if there is one.) so if someone doesn't rigorously follow de
> facto usenet standards they can expect a boatload of shit rather than any
> help?
>
> blake
Only if they respond as you quite consistently responded :-(
--
Gene E. Bloch letters0x40blochg0x2Ecom
blake murphy
oh, it's a usenet standard to meekly accept any shit handed to you? i
didn't know that.
blake
Indi
>
> he's just another netcop blowhard. why they think they're so much smarter
> than everyone else is a mystery to me.
>
I disagree; Eggs is a valuable contributor to this group.
When I first started posting here I used a simple sign-off rather than a
delimited sig, and I did get complaints. Though it's a fact that neither
method is actually a hard and fast "rule", I just decided to go the "when
in Rome" route, and it solved the issue.
When you said "Fuck that" followed by "your pal, Blake", I thought it was
pretty funny. But some people have thinner skin than others, and now you've
gotten yourself into a bit of a corner with several people here...
IME apologies cost very little, while hostility can become rather expensive.
And there's only one news.software.readers.
;)
--
indi
Gene E. Bloch
QED
VanguardLH
> that's all well and good, but as i recall, this wasn't pointed out to me
> without also including a bunch of name-calling. (and no, i didn't consult
> the FAQ, if there is one.) so if someone doesn't rigorously follow de
> facto usenet standards they can expect a boatload of shit rather than any
> help?
Perhaps you forgot but Beau mentioned (which seemed neutral to me) on
how to delimit your signature because you choose to manually enter it:
"Ok, when you manually type it, begin it with a "-- " on a line
itself; that's hyphen-hyphen-space-return on one line"
What was YOUR response?
"fuck that."
So just WHO was the one that devolved the subthread thereafter along a
path of insults? Screech, and off into the dark alley you went. And,
whoosh, over your head went the jocular jibes from other posters who
didn't actually attack you but thought to have some biting banter. You
flipped into a derogatory attitude so what did you expect in return?
blake murphy
eggs might be albert einstein, but as you imply, rather thin-skinned. i
just think that among usenet sins, a non-delimited, three-word two-line
non-sig is not worth blowing a gasket over. i don't think netcopery is a
'de facto usenet standard' either.
your pal,
blake
blake murphy
no, quod is not fucking demostrandum. but do continue to think of yourself
as a genius.
blake
blake murphy
yes, the first one was banter, as was my reply (granted, that's hard to
tell). but it went from there pretty quickly to insults, which were not
delivered by me.
your pal,
blake
Sqwertz
> eggs might be albert einstein, but as you imply, rather thin-skinned. i
> just think that among usenet sins, a non-delimited, three-word two-line
> non-sig is not worth blowing a gasket over. i don't think netcopery is a
> 'de facto usenet standard' either.
You think that's bad, you should have seen Blinky go on an on about
my "X-No-Archive" header.
-sw
blake murphy
your pal,
blake
VanguardLH
> You think that's bad, you should have seen Blinky go on an on about
> my "X-No-Archive" header.
You sure that wasn't me. Here's my canned rant about that header.
<rant title="To Lambaste a User of the X-No-Archive Header">
Only posted to those who reply to me using the X-No-Archive header. To
deliberately thwart the no-archive request, the original post may be
shown above, including its headers. Alas, you really don't want an
answer because you don't even want your original post to stick around
beyond a week, or possibly shorter. Your post was already expired (set
by the archiver, not by you) and eligible for removal from *my* local
archive to honor your X-No-Archive request.
> X-No-Archive: yes
- It reduces the number of users that will see your post. This is
Usenet which doesn't command the immediacy of a prattling venue, like
some chat room where you won't see responses when you exit a session.
Potential respondents won't see your post after 6 days, or however long
is the no-archive expiration which could be shorter.
- It reduces the value of the thread to other users because the thread
gets punched full of "holes" from posters that use this header.
Responses that are archived may only have a partial quoting of a prior
no-archived post plus all headers are lost from the original post. This
header corrupts the flow of the discussion. The discussion becomes
incomplete due to all the greedy bastards that don't want to share what
they've said.
- What boob self-censors their own posts by asking that they vaporize
before a week has elapsed?
- Spammers, trolls, flamers, cowards, liars, nymshifters, and
malcontents use this header to hide their history (which answers the
previous question as to who uses this header). They don't want anyone
to know just how long and how often they've been around. Is this the
group of users to whom you wish to affiliate yourself?
- Because of the user types that use this no-archive header (boobs,
newbies, greedy posters not willing to share the discussion, spammers,
trolls, cowards), some users will filter out your post. They may either
delete any no-archive posts (as YOU requested) or weight them as spam or
"bad" posts which can reduce the number of potential respondents to your
post. One of those respondents might have had the answer you were
looking for but you chose to hide your post before they visited the
group. They don't see your post so they don't respond. Maybe they
would have been the only one willing to respond. Maybe they would have
been the only one with the expertise to help you. You don't know. To
you, it looks like no one bothered to answer your post when, in fact,
you chose to hide it from them or affiliate yourself with a type of
poster that the respondent filters out.
- You inflame other users by trying to steal away the help that you
received. You want to get help but are unwilling to share it with
others that may later encounter the same or similar problem. They
cannot find your prior post. If respondents were similarly inclined and
also used the X-No-Archive header then the entire thread disappears. If
you don't want anyone to see your post or do not want to keep the thread
intact then don't post. Usenet is for SHARING.
- The use of this header is anti-social and outright rude. It is
employed by cowards.
- You don't consider your post important enough to have it archived.
Likewise, why would anyone participate or help you on a post that you
have deemed valueless?
- While you might consider your post to be valueless or you are just
being greedy in trying not to share with anyone else at a later time,
the archived threads are used to discover existing solutions or just to
see if the topic has been previously discussed. If you don't want your
posts to echo through eternity, speak into a well insulated empty soup
can so no one else can hear you. If you want to keep it to yourself, do
it upfront by not posting.
- Only boobs or newbies believe that this header will prevent their post
from getting archived. There are many forums that use a gateway to
Usenet so your post will get archived there (and may remain archived for
years). It isn't just Google Groups where your post will get archived.
Also, the retention interval of NNTP hosts (of which the vast majority
will not honor the X-No-Archive header) will far outstrip the 6-day
no-archive expiration at Google Groups. The use of this header makes
you look stupid.
- "regular newsgroup participants were concerned about privacy rights"
(http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/X-No-Archive). Privacy is your
responsibility. Don't use your true e-mail address in your posts if you
don't want it abused. Munge it, require a passcode in the Subject to
bypass an auto-delete filter (as proof that a human used it) that you
mention in your signature (because spambots can't read instructions), or
use a bogus one (but one in which the domain is not registered, or use
.invalid as the top-level domain, as in y...@domain.invalid). Google
carried on a tradition that Deja News employed at the behest of some
frightened users in an environment that is not the same today; however,
not all traditions are sensible when established or remain applicable
over time, especially when based on a trust model.
- You requested your post be deleted from any archive that honors the
X-No-Archive header. Anyone that honors your request chooses their own
expiration interval. You don't get to specify WHEN the no-archive
request is honored. For the vast number of NNTP server, this header is
NOT honored (i.e., it is ignored). For Google Groups, deletion is after
6 days. For me, the deletion is immediate upon recognition or
immediately after responding, whichever is later. Hey, you are the one
that requested your post be automatically deleted, you are the one that
considers your post of no value beyond someone else's configured
expiration interval, you are the one that doesn't want anyone to see
your prior posts, and you are the one that wants to fuck up the
continuity of past threads in which you momentarily participated. Your
wish has been granted: your post is no longer archived by me and it's
just like it never existed. Poof, gone, you were never here.
</rant>
houghi
<snip all>
I can only agree. All I can add is that setting XNA is up to the user.
It is very easy to filter on, so if you are so much against it, filter
out those postings.
I have done it in the past, then turned it off, because DejaNews was
quite usefull in finding some information. When I look at Google Groups
and the fact that it is so useless, I am thinking of setting XNA back on
again.
The one and only argument, to make archiving possible, is gone now with
the rape of DejaNews by Google.
houghi
--
For a long time now I have tried simply to write the best I can. Sometimes I
have good luck and write better than I can.
-- Ernest Hemingway
houghi
> I use it because I don't like the only place I'm aware of that honors
> it, Google. Ever since Google acquired the Usenet archive from DejaNews
> they've been using it to generate revenue for themselves without giving
> back anything in return but various forms of abuse and a blurred
> distinction between their own Google Groups and Usenet.
As far as Google not giving anything back, I would disagree. There are
many things they sponsor and do for the (Linux) community. As to giving
back to the Usenet community, they indeed don't.
> Google isn't even welcome on my private network, they get no click
> revenue from us;
>
> bd@kronos$ host google.com
> google.com has address 127.0.0.1
You will miss the ones that make money for them. I use
http://www.mvps.org/winhelp2002/hosts.htm
penne:~ # grep google /etc/hosts
127.0.0.1 www.mygooglepagerank.com
127.0.0.1 google.tucows.com
127.0.0.1 googleadsense.ya.com
127.0.0.1 googlefastfind.info
127.0.0.1 domains.googlesyndication.com #[Parking Service]
127.0.0.1 pagead.googlesyndication.com
127.0.0.1 pagead2.googlesyndication.com #[Google AdWords]
127.0.0.1 adservices.google.com
127.0.0.1 video-stats.video.google.com
# 127.0.0.1 ssl.google-analytics.com #[disabled = Firefox issues]
127.0.0.1 www.google-analytics.com #[Google Analytics]
127.0.0.1 4.afs.googleadservices.com
127.0.0.1 feedads.googleadservices.com
127.0.0.1 imageads.googleadservices.com
#[Ewido.TrackingCookie.Googleadservices]
127.0.0.1 pagead2.googleadservices.com
127.0.0.1 partner.googleadservices.com
127.0.0.1 www.googleadservices.com
127.0.0.1 googleads.g.doubleclick.net #[pagead-dclk.l.google.com]
127.0.0.1 google-analistyc.net
127.0.0.1 google-analytlcs.com
127.0.0.1 googleclear.com
127.0.0.1 google-moogle.com #[Spamdexing]
127.0.0.1 www.google-moogle.com
127.0.0.1 www.e-googles.com
127.0.0.1 googlenews.xorg.pl
127.0.0.1 1.googlenews.xorg.pl
127.0.0.1 2.googlenews.xorg.pl
127.0.0.1 3.googlenews.xorg.pl
127.0.0.1 4.googlenews.xorg.pl
127.0.0.1 5.googlenews.xorg.pl
127.0.0.1 google-analyze.cn #[Google.Diagnostic]
127.0.0.1 google-analyze.org
houghi
>> You will miss the ones that make money for them. I use
>> http://www.mvps.org/winhelp2002/hosts.htm
>
> including most of Google's English sites with my local DNS server
> (BIND 9), and do my ad blocking with a Squid proxy server.
You can easily add the list to bind.
> This is one of the best ad blocking resources I've found to date, note
> all the different formats their list is available in;
>
> http://pgl.yoyo.org/adservers
Interesting. The URL I gave has a bit more domain names. 16.000 instead
of 2.500 And one system only is never good enough. I will join the two
to get even better results.
Mike Easter
> As far as Google not giving anything back, I would disagree. There are
> many things they sponsor and do for the (Linux) community. As to
giving
> back to the Usenet community, they indeed don't.
I consider the maintenance of the archive 'giving back to usenet'. I
consider the use of XNA to thwart the effect of GG's archives giving
back to usenet.
To me, usenet is a place for exchange of info and I use GG's archives to
help me find information on usenet. One of the first things I do for
certain types of information I seek is go to GG archives typically
advanced search.
In those archives, I might find a direct answer to my question, or I
might find an angle to consider to go about finding a more direct
answer, or I might determine the best usenet group to ask the question
for the answer I am seeking.
That is a tremendous 'boost' to the effect of accessing the information
which is already in the usenet archives and also in guiding me to how to
best communicate my question in the realtime usenet cloud.
In the beginning of usenet archiving, that is all that Deja News
Research Service did. The damage started when My Deja News made the
posting interface - which GG subsequently continued. My Deja also
'created' - caused to be created, XNA. When GG first enhanced the
archive search tools, that was an improvement over deja -- when the GG
posting enhancement and the trend of users to prefer a browser to a news
or mail client for messaging really set in was how GG detracts from
usenet.
So to me, the posting interface is more of a detraction than a benefit
to usenet, even tho' there are some real usenet-type contributors using
GG posting; and the GG archiving is a benefit to usenet, which is
diminished by the usenetters who XNA, because they diminish the
archive's value for the purposes described above.
--
Mike Easter
XS11E
> When I need information I simply discuss it in the appropriate
> newsgroup. After all, that's what they're there for.
Wouldn't it be polite to search the archives first to learn if the
information has already been posted?
Answer: Yes, it would, that's the very first rule of Usenet:
http://www.cs.tut.fi/~jkorpela/usenet/dont.html
--
XS11E, Killing all posts from Google Groups
The Usenet Improvement Project:
http://improve-usenet.org
Dan C
> Mike Easter wrote:
>
>> To me, usenet is a place for exchange of info and I use GG's archives
>> to help me find information on usenet. One of the first things I do
>> for certain types of information I seek is go to GG archives typically
>> advanced search.
>
> A Usenet archive means different things to different people.
>
> I have no use for one because Usenet would be the very last place I'd be
> searching information, and only then in dire desperation. When I need
> information I simply discuss it in the appropriate newsgroup. After all,
> that's what they're there for.
>
> When one starts searching Usenet for example for information on the
> color red one is quite likey to find a large number of opinions about
> various shades of red, entire sub threads about why the color blue is
> much better and white is worse, and maybe one or two posts specifically
> about red itself.
>
> Witness the thread here about a top posting news reader. It turned into
> a bitch fest about why top posting is bad and pretty much ignored the
> initial topic. The value of that in a searchable archive has about the
> same long term value ass tits on a bull do. I.e. None.
Wrong. Stupid.
--
"Ubuntu" -- an African word, meaning "Slackware is too hard for me".
The Usenet Improvement Project: http://improve-usenet.org
Ahhhhhhhh!: http://brandybuck.site40.net/pics/relieve.jpg
Mike Easter
> Mike Easter wrote:
>
>> to help me find information on usenet. One of the first things I do
>> for certain types of information I seek is go to GG archives
>> typically advanced search.
>
>
> I have no use for one because Usenet would be the very last place I'd
> be searching information, and only then in dire desperation. When I
> need information I simply discuss it in the appropriate newsgroup.
> After all, that's what they're there for.
My experience with solving my problems has been that
- usenet is a good place to search for questions and answers related to
my problem
- when I prepare to ask a question on usenet, it is important that I
provide sufficient troubleshooting background. I can perform my
troubleshooting better and thus frame my question better if I have read
the dialogue between the askers and answerers of similar issues in the
past
- sometimes I need to ask a question in some group with which I am not
familiar. Finding the right group by archive searching for past
discussions of my issue and then familiarizing myself with the group
itself - or more than one group sometimes - is a guide to the one group
where I should ask my question. I do not crosspost questions.
The better I have usenet archive researched my problem, the better I can
solve my problem on my own and the better I can ask my question in the
right way in the right place.
I don't ask a question by picking a group whose name sounds good and
starting to type.
--
Mike Easter
XS11E
> XS11E wrote:
>
>> Black Dragon <b...@nomail.invalid> wrote:
>
>>> When I need information I simply discuss it in the appropriate
>>> newsgroup. After all, that's what they're there for.
>
>> Wouldn't it be polite to search the archives first to learn if the
>> information has already been posted?
>
> No.
Wrong answer.
> Ever consider perhaps there is someone interested in discussing the
> information who wasn't around the last time the information was being
> discussed? Or perhaps there is a more modern version of the same old
> information which isn't archived yet?
They can search just as you can, if new information is available then
and ONLY then should you post.
> Wouldn't it be polite for people like yourself and a few others here
> to stop expecting others to conform to your own prejudices?
Wouldn't it be polite for you to conform to accepted standards of
netiquette instead of applying your own unacceptable behavior?
XS11E
> XS11E wrote:
>
>> Black Dragon <b...@nomail.invalid> wrote:
>
>>> XS11E wrote:
>
>>>> Black Dragon <b...@nomail.invalid> wrote:
>
>>>>> When I need information I simply discuss it in the appropriate
>>>>> newsgroup. After all, that's what they're there for.
>
>>>> Wouldn't it be polite to search the archives first to learn if
>>>> the information has already been posted?
>
>>> No.
>
>> Wrong answer.
>
> So we disagree. Doesn't mean either of us is wrong.+
Yes, in this case you are.
>>> Ever consider perhaps there is someone interested in discussing
>>> the information who wasn't around the last time the information
>>> was being discussed? Or perhaps there is a more modern version
>>> of the same old information which isn't archived yet?
>
>> They can search just as you can, if new information is available
>> then and ONLY then should you post.
>
> So leaving Usenet to use Usenet is what, brilliant? No, that's
> downright stupid.
Why would you be leaving Usenet? That's a rather uninformed statement
on your part, isn't it?
>>> Wouldn't it be polite for people like yourself and a few others
>>> here to stop expecting others to conform to your own prejudices?
>
>> Wouldn't it be polite for you to conform to accepted standards of
>> netiquette instead of applying your own unacceptable behavior?
>
> I refuse to conform to other peoples prejudices when those
> prejudices have nothing at all to do with netiquette.
Again: http://www.cs.tut.fi/~jkorpela/usenet/dont.html Item one.
We're not talking about anyone's prejudices, we ARE talking about
netiquette. Your refusal to search before posting is just downright
rude, as impolite as top posting or posting in HTML to text groups.
It's impolite to everyone in whatever group you're posting to and
ignoring proper manners will eventually get you kill filed by most just
as surely as trolling or any other violation of netiquette.
I'm done, there's no sense discussing anything with one who is
determined to be rude to others as you seem to be,
Do you also chew with your mouth open? Fart at the dinner table? What
other violations of etiquette do you condone?
VanguardLH
> These days most servers don't expire text posts for at least a year or
> so. Only google expires them in a week (that I know of).
We all know Google Groups (via Deja News before Google grabbed them)
created this header so they support it. However, that doesn't mean only
Google will honor this header.
> Good. That's less chance for groper idiot f'ups.
The pervasive use of this header, from my experience, has been with
those posters that do NOT use Google Groups. It may be the default
configuration of their NNTP client or they edited that configuration to
always use the XNA header (i.e., none of their posts are important to
keep around for longer than a week). Google Groupers are using Google's
webnews-for-dummies interface. They have no choice to add the XNA
header, so it is NOT the Google Groupers that are the ones using this
header. It is the non-Google Groupers using the XNA header.
> This is Usenet which traditionally only remained available for 10 days
> to a couple weeks... maybe a month at the outside. These days, many
> hold them a year or even longer.
Before 1992, and at my university, posts never expired until disk space
got tight but usually that meant scrambling to add another disk. The
"traditional" use of newsgroups didn't involve binaries or even the
volume of boobs that infiltrated Usenet when AOL added newsgroups or
again later when forums added their Usenet gateways.
Also, commercial NNTP services retain articles for a lot longer than 10
days. Even 1 year is short. Giganews, as I recall, keeps them around
for 5 years (for text groups). Usenet evolved beyond the simplistic
forerunner for chat rooms to encompassing the retrieval of historical
information that has become quite valuable in troubleshooting.
> This is Usenet. Most servers don't expire the text groups for a good
> year or so. Potential respondents will see my post for however long
> their servers retain them.
Since few NNTP servers honor the XNA header, someone trying to use it
makes themself look a boob. They are only punching holes in the thread
in the Google Groups copy - yet Google Groups is where many if not most
users will go look for archival copies of a thread.
> Only when somone tries to read it from an archive. Usenet isn't an
> archive. I only want my posts read on Usenet. Matter of fact, it
> used to be that the XNA flag prevented one's post from being seen on
> Google at all. I'd sure like that policy to return.
You're screwed. Now the forums are archiving Usenet with their
forum-to-Usenet gateways. When Deja News added support for the XNA
header, I don't recall that it ever blocked Google from peering a copy
of that article. It was due to pressure from privacy fanatics as to why
they added the header; however, I don't recall that it ever meant
immediate removal (i.e., rejection when peering or upon submission) but
always meant the article was eligible for removal from their servers
after some time, like 6 days.
> Usenet is for discussion/conversation. In real
> life, such things vaporize as soon as the air stops
> vibrating. Do you carry a tape recorder around to
> record your every phrase as if your great great
> grandchildren will hang on your every utterance?
Things change. Lots of information is still valuable from Usenet
discussions, like solving problems with computers, cars, DIY repairs,
and so on. The value of Usenet has surpassed its short-retentivity
babble origin and evolved into a store of useful (and not so useful)
information. Without the archiving into Google Groups, forums, copied
into blogs, etc., just WHERE would *you* look to find a problem that you
cannot resolve yourself? You only want less than a 2-week window to
find out if someone else has discussed the same problem? You want only
the current availability of those who are currently visiting the
newsgroup to respond without any access to that historical information?
> Post hoc, ergo prompter hoc
> I'll play too. If you don't use your real name, you
> must be a spammer, troll, flamer, coward, liar, etc. etc.
I picked a moniker different than my real name because someone had
already been using it in the groups that I visited. I decided to be
polite and pick something else so I used my avatar's name from a gaming
forum. Alas, my first pick also matched on a regular poster that was
around before me so I change it again but then realized that Google
tosses out non-alphanumeric characters in its searches which made
finding my posts difficult so I remove those characters. I'm not
interested in stroking my ego by having to use my given name which isn't
unique. The moniker I have now has been used for a couple of years now
and I will keep it because no one was using it before me. Are you sure
that all of those 1950 posts using "Steve Ackman" is you? If so, you're
luckier than those with more common names.
As to why I don't use a valid e-mail address has to do with not making
an e-mail provider suffer bandwidth for e-mails that I will never read.
If I were to create an e-mail account as some freebie provider, I won't
be reading any e-mail sent there. I keep my discussions in Usenet and
am not rude in taking them offline from the group via e-mail. I keep my
posts in the group(s). I post in Usenet and I keep [my part of] the
discussion there. E-mails sent to the account would never be read and
would probably be immediately deleted by a rule. Why would I impact any
e-mail provider with worthless traffic? You'll notice I use an e-mail
address that won't even afflict a mail server because the domain cannot
exist (if it ever does then I'll have to change my e-mail address to
include the .invalid TLD). If spambots harvest my e-mail address, they
will waste their time trying to connect to a domain that doesn't exist
(as .invalid is automatically excluded by them). Also, the trust model
on which NNTP was built has long expired.
> XNA does NOT mean "delete this immediately" but "this post is not of
> such earth shattering importance that it needs to be around for
> archaeologists to find 4 or 5 millenia down the road. Please let it
> die its natural and timely death."
Alas, that is not how it is often used. The user configures their NNTP
client to add the header which occurs for all their posts. They might
provide a solution for a problem for which no one has found an answer.
However, in a week, that solution is gone and anyone else having the
same problem cannot find the solution anymore. The XNA header is *not*
used only for trivial posts. It is often set in the client and remains
that way for all that user's posts.
> Guess what. If a question I ask today is answered a year from now...
> I almost certainly won't care.
And who cares about your personal choice when you get help from someone
else? That answer may be important to someone else with the same
problem a year from now. Just because YOU got help means no one else
should find the same help on the same problem? Wow, you sure are greedy
and short-sighted. You get your answer but you don't want anyone else
to find the same solution.
> They'd have been too late anyway.
Oh, you've never run into an esoteric problem that few people could
provide a solution (and not just suggestion during troubleshooting) that
might take more than 6 days to solve? For those that might have an
answer, what if they aren't around that week? Well, your post
disappears and they won't see it when they do choose to volunteer their
time in the group to provide help. Well, golly, now we get to see you
repost your SAME question the next week because no one happened to be
around the week before.
> They is plural.
Warning: This constitutes a sub-topic. Of into a tanget we go.
"They" is also a gender-neutral 3rd person singular pronoun rather than
use he or she (because their gender isn't known), he/she is clumsy, "it"
is neutral but considered impolite when referring to humans. Other than
"it", there isn't another gender-neutral 3rd person singular pronoun.
Humans don't care for being called an "it".
The Shorter Oxford English Dictionary:
They: 2. Often used in reference to a singular noun made universal by
every, any, no, etc., or applicable to either sex (= 'he or she')
Their: 3. Often used in relation to a singular noun or pronoun
denoting a person, after each, every, either, neither, no one,
everyone, etc. Also so used instead of 'his or her', when the gender
is inconclusive or uncertain.
Themselves: 2. In concord with a singular pronoun or noun denoting a
person, in cases where the meaning implies more than one, as when the
noun is qualified by a distributive, or refers to either sex: =
'himself or herself'.
They: 4. In relation to a singular noun or pronoun of undetermined
gender: he or she.
The Cambridge Grammar of the English Language:
Singular they (p. 426)
They is commonly used with a singular antecedent, as in Someone has
left their umbrella behind. As such, it fills a gap in the gender
system of the core personal pronouns by virtue of being neutral as to
sex.
(e) Singular they (pp. 493-494)
The use of they with a singular antecedent goes back to the Middle
English, and in spite of criticism since the earliest prescriptive
grammars it has continued to be very common in informal style. In
recent years it has gained greater acceptance in other styles as the
use of purportedly sex-neutral he has declined. It is particularly
common with such antecedents as everyone, someone, no one; indeed its
use in examples like No one felt that they had been misled is so
widespread that it can probably be regarded as stylistically neutral.
Somewhat more restricted is its use with antecedents containing common
nouns as head嚙皺The view taken here is that they, like you, can be
either plural or singular.
> One is singular.
> ... people you refer to as "one?"
>
>> Maybe they would have been the only one with the
>> expertise to help you.
>
> Doesn't parse any better this time around.
Return to college and take a linguistics course. Archaic English
grammer only provides a simplistic foundation for teaching writing
skills. Even Middle English recognized the need for a gender-neutral
3rd person pronoun.
What do YOU propose for use as an elegant and non-contrived word(s) for
a gender-neutral 3rd person pronoun?
"They don't see your post so they don't respond."
or
"One doesn't see your post so one doesn't respond."
Oh yeah, that 2nd example is so fluid ... not! I've found more
opposition to using "he" as a gender-neutral 3rd person pronoun than
when using "they". It is also infers the lack of singularity or
plurality by being indeterminate in number.
> I let it die its natural death which might be a week on the evil
> archiver, a month on some other server, or a year on some other.
Yes, we know you are greedy. Once you get an answer, you could care
less about someone else finding the same help for the same problem.
> I have hidden nothing from anyone.
Then why use the XNA header at all?
> It is people who choose to use google groups who limit
> their own view of Usenet.
Again, it isn't just Google Groups that supports the XNA header.
However, Google Groups is the most used archival source for resolving
problems (i.e., finding solutions to the same or similar troubles).
> Huh? My responses will be available as long as the
> question is. On Usenet. I post to Usenet, not Google.
And Google also uses NNTP servers (not available to use but how it
peers). As with Google Groups, Giganews, or any other NNTP service,
*you* don't get to determine their retention. So why bother trying to
alter it with the XNA header? As you admit, few NNTP servers honor it
so it makes the poster look stupid in using it. For Google Groups,
which is a primary archival source, it means the poster *is* trying to
hide their post after a week despite it may contain info that is helpful
to someone else. But then we know you aren't interested in helping
anyone else.
> 15 years ago I was using Net-Tamer on DOS. Nobody
> could care less today about any answers I gave or
> received concerning that newsreader. Nobody will give
> a shit 15 years hence about Dialog either. Why archive
> it?
Oh, you think there is no one out there that is still using an old
8-inch Pelican drive? Or has an Altair? Or coding in Fortran or
Pascal? Or no one uses MS/IBM-DOS anymore? Or is still using a
joystick connected to a joystick controller card? Or no one owns a car
that is over a decade old, or more?
Besides, I'm not sure why you decided to extrapolate the value of
archived information from just 6 days to 15 years. You think a problem
on Windows XP/Vista, Ubuntu, Redhat, SuSE, Word, OpenOffice, or whatever
occurs only within a 1-week window? You think that users of Dialog
don't want to find out question about regex or where to find custom
scripts to modify its behavior that were asked over a month ago? Yes,
we know you're greedy. A discussion by you is just for you and no one
should be looking at it once you have decided to abandon it.
I did preface my reply as my personal rant about the use of the XNA
header. So your opinions differ from mine but then your purpose for
using Usenet is probably different than mine. I don't spend time in the
political, scientology, religious, kook, or other non-technical groups.
The scope of my Usenet usage (based on the limited groups where I lurk
or participate) does effect a bias on my rant. In all the groups that I
visit (except maybe 24hoursupport.helpdesk), the discussions are about
getting help - and those discussions, including their resolutions, are
NOT irrelevant after a week.
So far, I do not filter out XNA posts but I do alert on them. If that
poster is in a discussion regarding someone asking or giving help, and
if it is the XNA poster that provides the solution or even much relevant
information, then (if I remember) I'll quote more of their post so that
their information sticks around longer. If they didn't (er, if one
doesn't) want to help more than just that one person, they (er, one)
should take the discussion offline via e-mail and disconnect everyone
else now and later from the solution.
VanguardLH
> Mike Easter wrote:
>
>> To me, usenet is a place for exchange of info and I use GG's archives to
>> help me find information on usenet. One of the first things I do for
>> certain types of information I seek is go to GG archives typically
>> advanced search.
>
> A Usenet archive means different things to different people.
>
> I have no use for one because Usenet would be the very last place I'd be
> searching information, and only then in dire desperation. When I need
> information I simply discuss it in the appropriate newsgroup. After all,
> that's what they're there for.
Alas, that's why you get boobs that ask the same questions over and over
and over and over and ...
They're too lazy to go search to see if their problem has already been
discussed and resolved. Instead this attitude cultivates users to post
knee-jerk questions rather than expend some effort beforehand.
Do you inhabit some groups to be a regular there to provide help to
others? Okay, so when someone asks you about a problem that is beyond
your ken, where do YOU go look for info that you could cultivate into
response useful to the OP? Oh yeah, you never search the newsgroups,
sure (rolls eyes). Sometimes helping another doesn't mean you actually
know the complete answer but instead that you know better how to
research the problem to locate the information and compile a resolution
for the OP. Without Usenet archives (which includes not only Google
Groups but all those forums that use a gateway to Usenet), you would
have few sources for your research. Remember that if you are against
Usenet archiving that you must also be against forum archiving which
means you can't do your research there, either. Without the archiving,
you're stuck with just a few knowledgebases, FAQs, and articles (like
blogs) which significantly lowers the chance that you'll find the
information to resolve the problem. For example, you really want to
have only Microsoft's support knowledgebase to resolve problems with
their products, or would you really like to have available that Usenet
archive (as Google Groups or via forums) to research the problem?
Users asking for help and sometimes getting answers represent a lot of
useful information. Seems a waste to keep building a new wheel
everytime someone asks about how to fix one, along with limiting the
availability of expertise (i.e., exposure for your post) to just those
who happen to be strolling by at the time.
Without the archival of information, just WHERE are you going to find
help if no one that is presently visiting the group can answer your
question? By extension to your argument that Usenet should not be
archived then so, too, should forums also not have their discussions
archived, or anywhere else users ask for and get help. Do you only
provide help if you are intimate with the specific solution and can
answer immediately? In other words, have you never researched a
solution before giving it?
Ironic are those that use the XNA header and yet they include links in
their replies that point to Google Groups articles or to posts in
forums. They don't want their message archived but they're glad someone
else did so they could emulate that expertise by pointing to it. They
don't want their posts archived but they do want others to archive.
Doesn't seem much point in posting if you deem that what you say isn't
worth staying around for longer than a week. You are self-deprecating
your posts as just temporary noise in the group.
Dan C
"Black Dragon" is a known Usenet troll, who has been asked before why he
uses the XNA bit in his headers. He never answers the question, because
the correct answer is that he is a TROLL, and that's what a lot of trolls
do (use XNA). You're wasting your time trying to convince him
otherwise. Just laugh at his ignorance and ignore him.
--
"Ubuntu" -- an African word, meaning "Slackware is too hard for me".
The Usenet Improvement Project: http://improve-usenet.org
Ahhhhhhhh!: http://brandybuck.site40.net/pics/relieve.jpg
houghi
> They're too lazy to go search to see if their problem has already been
> discussed and resolved. Instead this attitude cultivates users to post
> knee-jerk questions rather than expend some effort beforehand.
Partly I agree. People often don't search first. This search should not
be limited to Usenet. However _if_ people want to search Usenet, google
has made that somewhere between extremely impractical an abslutely
impossible.
houghi
--
First we thought the PC was a calculator. Then we found out how to turn
numbers into letters with ASCII and we thought it was a typewriter. Then
we discovered graphics, and we thought it was television. With the World
Wide Web, we've realized it's a brochure. -- Douglas Adams.
houghi
> I consider the maintenance of the archive 'giving back to usenet'. I
> consider the use of XNA to thwart the effect of GG's archives giving
> back to usenet.
I would consider the maintence of an archive also 'giving back to
usenet'. It is a pity that that is not what they do. They has a great
archive, dejanews, and they raped it.
The fact that they did that to their archive is their choice. The fact
that they abuse it to rape Usenet is not 'giving back to usenet'. That
is 'giving the finger to usenet'.
Even WebTV was not as bad.
houghi
<snip>
> and I will keep it because no one was using it before me. Are you sure
> that all of those 1950 posts using "Steve Ackman" is you? If so, you're
> luckier than those with more common names.
Are you sure his real name is "Steve Achman". For al it could be "Batman
Bin Suparman" http://tinyurl.com/lklhuo or "Moon Unit Zappa"
http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Moon_Zappa or just "John Smith"
In other words, I agree with you. Unless you put time and efford in it,
you can not be sure.
What I do is try to evaluate each posting independently. Sometimes I
might disagree, another time I might agree, but all are most of the
time, reactions to a posting.