Pan Date header preference setting for time zone

[Kazumi Inoue]

My pan Date header is always in UTC.
Date: Sat, 2 Jul 2016 01:02:03 +0000 (UTC)

But I want the Date header to be in JST
Date: Sat, 2 Jul 2016 01:02:03 +0000 (JST)

Or, maybe not even listing it, as most newsreaders don't:
Date: Sat, 2 Jul 2016 01:02:03 +0000

How do I change Pan's default Date header preference?

What is the name of the pan preference for Date headers?


--- news://freenews.netfront.net/ - complaints: ne...@netfront.net ---

[Adam H. Kerman]

news.software.nntp cut from crosspost.

Kazumi Inoue <kaz...@inoue.net> wrote:

>My pan Date header is always in UTC.
> Date: Sat, 2 Jul 2016 01:02:03 +0000 (UTC)

btw, +0000 means the host that set the Date header, whether client or
server, is physically located in a time zone that observes UTC. If the
clock is set to UTC without regard to local time, then -0000 is used.

>But I want the Date header to be in JST
> Date: Sat, 2 Jul 2016 01:02:03 +0000 (JST)

You mean +0900, assuming your mean Japanese Standard Time.

>Or, maybe not even listing it, as most newsreaders don't:
> Date: Sat, 2 Jul 2016 01:02:03 +0000

>How do I change Pan's default Date header preference?

>What is the name of the pan preference for Date headers?

Someone else will have to answer your specific question about Pan features.

[Kazumi Inoue]

Adam H. Kerman wrote on Sat, 02 Jul 2016 18:08:37 +0000:

> You mean +0900, assuming your mean Japanese Standard Time.

Thank you Adam Kerman,

I really want the (UTC) to disappear.
And I want JST time to show up in its place.

So instead of this:

Date: Sat, 2 Jul 2016 01:02:03 +0000 (UTC)

I want something like this:
Date: Sat, 2 Jul 2016 01:02:03 +9000

What is settings in Pan to fix Date zone bug?

[Kazumi Inoue]

David E. Ross wrote on Sat, 02 Jul 2016 07:38:00 -0700:

> JST is NOT +00000. It is +0900.

I probably not explain it good.

Instead of this in NNTP header:

Date: Sat, 2 Jul 2016 01:02:03 +0000 (UTC)

I want this in NNTP header:

Date: Sat, 2 Jul 2016 01:02:03 +9000

I do not want the character set "(UTC)" in NNTP header.

Notice your NNTP Date header was:
Date: Sat, 2 Jul 2016 07:38:00 -0700

I want same syntax!
How?

[Adam H. Kerman]

Kazumi Inoue <kaz...@inoue.net> wrote:
>Adam H. Kerman wrote on Sat, 02 Jul 2016 18:08:37 +0000:

>>You mean +0900, assuming your mean Japanese Standard Time.

>Thank you Adam Kerman,

>I really want the (UTC) to disappear.
>And I want JST time to show up in its place.

>So instead of this:
> Date: Sat, 2 Jul 2016 01:02:03 +0000 (UTC)
>I want something like this:
> Date: Sat, 2 Jul 2016 01:02:03 +9000

>What is settings in Pan to fix Date zone bug?

According to this thread from 2003
http://comments.gmane.org/gmane.comp.gnome.apps.pan.user/3895

Pan uses the system clock.

What does the output of

$ timedatectl

show?

That should show both the hardware clock (RTC), which doesn't store
the time zone offset, and the system clock, which does. The two are
independently controlled.

My hardware clock is a second ahead of the system clock. The hardware
clock is set to local time; the system clock shows local time with
the offset from Greenwich.

[David E. Ross]

If you have set Windows 7 for the correct time zone -- Osaka, Sapporo,
Tokyo in the list of time zones -- then the problem is with Pan, which
is off-topic in this newsgroup.

--
David E. Ross
<http://www.rossde.com/>.

Is it true that Donald Trump refuses to reveal his
income tax returns because he uses so many questionable
loopholes that he pays no taxes? See
<http://www.thedailybeast.com/articles/2016/06/15/new-evidence-donald-trump-didn-t-pay-taxes.html>.

[William Unruh]

On 2016-07-02, Kazumi Inoue <kaz...@inoue.net> wrote:
> David E. Ross wrote on Sat, 02 Jul 2016 07:38:00 -0700:
>
>> JST is NOT +00000. It is +0900.
>
> I probably not explain it good.
>
> Instead of this in NNTP header:
> Date: Sat, 2 Jul 2016 01:02:03 +0000 (UTC)
> I want this in NNTP header:
> Date: Sat, 2 Jul 2016 01:02:03 +9000

Uh, those two dates differ by 9 hours. What time, in Japan time, did you
post. Was it as 1:02 Japan time, or was it 10:02?

>
> I do not want the character set "(UTC)" in NNTP header.
>
> Notice your NNTP Date header was:
> Date: Sat, 2 Jul 2016 07:38:00 -0700
>
> I want same syntax!
> How?

What is the time on your computer? If you type
date
into a terminal does it give you the UTC or the Japan time?


>
>

[Kazumi Inoue]

William Unruh wrote on Sun, 03 Jul 2016 00:15:56 +0000:

> What is the time on your computer?

I do NOT want NNTP Date HEADER reveal my real time zone.

I not care what TIME but not reveal the real time zone is important!

What is setting in Pan to set time zone format to not show "UTC"?

[Kazumi Inoue]

David E. Ross wrote on Sat, 02 Jul 2016 16:45:07 -0700:

> If you have set Windows 7 for the correct time zone -- Osaka, Sapporo,
> Tokyo in the list of time zones -- then the problem is with Pan, which
> is off-topic in this newsgroup.

What Date header time zone is it show now?

[Kazumi Inoue]

William Unruh wrote on Sun, 03 Jul 2016 00:15:56 +0000:

> Uh, those two dates differ by 9 hours. What time, in Japan time, did you
> post. Was it as 1:02 Japan time, or was it 10:02?

I just write not real numbers.
It is the "(UTC)" syntax I tried to disappear.

This is Date header for you.
Date: Sun, 3 Jul 2016 00:15:56 -0000 (UTC)
Do you use Pan?

This is Date header for David E. Ross.
Date: Sat, 2 Jul 2016 16:45:07 -0700
He do not use Pan!

Pan add "(UTC)" when is not wanted!
How to disappear the "(UTC)" is the question?

[Kazumi Inoue]

Adam H. Kerman wrote on Sat, 02 Jul 2016 23:12:15 +0000:

> According to this thread from 2003
> http://comments.gmane.org/gmane.comp.gnome.apps.pan.user/3895
>
> Pan uses the system clock.

Thank you for reference that Pan put SYSTEM TIME in Date header.
But I think they talk about MESSAGE TIME and not DATE TIME!

Message time is same time zone for all message in thread.
Date time is has time zone and is only in header of message.

Question about how to disappear the "(UTC)" syntax in Pan DATE HEADER.

Date header you use is:
Date: Sat, 2 Jul 2016 23:12:15 +0000 (UTC)
Date header I use is same!

But Date header David E. Ross use has no "(UTC)"!
Date: Sat, 2 Jul 2016 16:45:07 -0700
That is Date header I am wanting!

How to disappear the "(UTC)" in Pan Date header?

[Adam H. Kerman]

Oh for heaven's sake. Who cares? As I told you in the other followup,
-0000 means UTC is being used, without regard to local time.

-0000 actually means UTC.

+0000 means UTC and that local time equals UTC.

It's redundant but it doesn't reveal your location.

[Kazumi Inoue]

William Unruh wrote on Sun, 03 Jul 2016 00:15:56 +0000:

> What time, in Japan time, did you post.

How do you posting people control YOUR Date HEADER?

Look it real example today!
From: ich...@gmail.com
Date: Sat, 2 Jul 2016 05:58:51 -0700 (PDT)

From: William Unruh <un...@invalid.ca>
Date: Sat, 2 Jul 2016 15:41:06 -0000 (UTC)

From: wy...@cindy.localdomain
Date: Fri, 01 Jul 2016 16:18:40 GMT

From: Sn!pe <snip...@gmail.com>
Date: Thu, 12 May 2016 06:02:08 +0200 (CEST)

From: Jeff-Relf.Me <@.>
Date: Tue, 12 Apr 2016 12:31:14 -0700 (Seattle)

From: Peter Köhlmann <peter-k...@t-online.de>
Date: Sat, 02 Jul 2016 16:14:50 +0200

From: Marek Novotny <marek....@marspolar.com>
Date: Sat, 2 Jul 2016 07:27:48 -0700

How do I make the DATE HEADER not tell my TIME ZONE?

[Kazumi Inoue]

Adam H. Kerman wrote on Sun, 03 Jul 2016 02:10:42 +0000:

> Oh for heaven's sake. Who cares? As I told you in the other followup,
> -0000 means UTC is being used, without regard to local time.
>
> -0000 actually means UTC.
>
> +0000 means UTC and that local time equals UTC.
>
> It's redundant but it doesn't reveal your location.

Your HEADER reveal that you use Pan!
From: "Adam H. Kerman" <a...@chinet.com>
Date: Sun, 3 Jul 2016 02:10:42 +0000 (UTC)

Only Pan use this format!
So you must be use Pan!

Correct?

[Mike Yetto]

So it is writ, so mote it be....
Kazumi Inoue <kaz...@inoue.net>:

> How do I make the DATE HEADER not tell my TIME ZONE?

By setting your system to the wrong date, time, or time-zone.

This could also help you to be ignored as others get tired of
telling you to fix your system clock so that it reports the
correct date-time.

Mike "it is supposed to be the correct time" Yetto
--
"God is an ever receding pocket of scientific ignorance."
- Neil deGrasse Tyson

[Kazumi Inoue]

William Unruh wrote on Sun, 03 Jul 2016 00:15:56 +0000:

> Was it as 1:02 Japan time, or was it 10:02?

Is this correct time math?

Honolulu
Date: Sun, 7 Dec 1941 08:05:00 -1000 (HAST)

GMT
Date: Mon, 8 Dec 1941 18:05:00 -0000 (UTC)

Osaka
Date: Tue, 8 Dec 1941 03:05:00 +0900 (JST)

If correct, why are some nntp DATE HEADER not
say ("ZONE")?

Example
Date: Sun, 7 Dec 1941 08:05:00 -1000
Date: Mon, 8 Dec 1941 18:05:00 -0000
Date: Tue, 8 Dec 1941 03:05:00 +0900

[Mike Yetto]

So it is writ, so mote it be....
Kazumi Inoue <kaz...@inoue.net>:

> Adam H. Kerman wrote on Sun, 03 Jul 2016 02:10:42 +0000:

>> Oh for heaven's sake. Who cares? As I told you in the other followup,
>> -0000 means UTC is being used, without regard to local time.
>>
>> -0000 actually means UTC.
>>
>> +0000 means UTC and that local time equals UTC.
>>
>> It's redundant but it doesn't reveal your location.

> Your HEADER reveal that you use Pan!
> From: "Adam H. Kerman" <a...@chinet.com>
> Date: Sun, 3 Jul 2016 02:10:42 +0000 (UTC)

> Only Pan use this format!
> So you must be use Pan!

> Correct?

No.
X-Newsreader: trn 4.0-test77 (Sep 1, 2010)

Mike "Keep Calm and Post the Correct Date-Time" Yetto
--
"Is it not better to place a question mark upon a problem while seeking an
answer than to put the label "God" there and consider the matter solved?"
- Joseph Lewis

[Adam H. Kerman]

Kazumi Inoue <kaz...@inoue.net> wrote:
>Adam H. Kerman wrote on Sun, 03 Jul 2016 02:10:42 +0000:

>>Oh for heaven's sake. Who cares? As I told you in the other followup,
>>-0000 means UTC is being used, without regard to local time.

>>-0000 actually means UTC.

>>+0000 means UTC and that local time equals UTC.

>>It's redundant but it doesn't reveal your location.

>Your HEADER reveal that you use Pan!
> From: "Adam H. Kerman" <a...@chinet.com>
> Date: Sun, 3 Jul 2016 02:10:42 +0000 (UTC)

>Only Pan use this format!
>So you must be use Pan!

>Correct?

Ok, seamus. You trolled me but good.

And, yes, +0000 is correct as I'm using a News server in Timbuktu.

[William Unruh]

On 2016-07-03, Kazumi Inoue <kaz...@inoue.net> wrote:
> William Unruh wrote on Sun, 03 Jul 2016 00:15:56 +0000:
>
>> What is the time on your computer?
>
> I do NOT want NNTP Date HEADER reveal my real time zone.
>
> I not care what TIME but not reveal the real time zone is important!
>
> What is setting in Pan to set time zone format to not show "UTC"?

Then leaving it as UTC, which is NOT a timezone, but is the Universal
Time coordinate-- ie it is not assocated with any timezone. Why would
you want to change it if you do not want it revealing your timezone?
Note t5hat UTC is NOT the same thing as British time for example.

Bizzare.

[tlvp]

On Sun, 3 Jul 2016 01:46:51 +0000 (UTC), Kazumi Inoue wrote:

> This is Date header for you.
> Date: Sun, 3 Jul 2016 00:15:56 -0000 (UTC)
> Do you use Pan?
>
> This is Date header for David E. Ross.
> Date: Sat, 2 Jul 2016 16:45:07 -0700
> He do not use Pan!
>
> Pan add "(UTC)" when is not wanted!
> How to disappear the "(UTC)" is the question?

These are basic headers for you, in Dialog:

: Re: Pan Date header preference setting for time zone
: Kazumi Inoue <kaz...@inoue.net> 7/3/2016 1:46:50 AM

Is that not what you want? HTH. Cheers, -- tlvp
--
Avant de repondre, jeter la poubelle, SVP.

[William Unruh]

On 2016-07-03, Kazumi Inoue <kaz...@inoue.net> wrote:

> William Unruh wrote on Sun, 03 Jul 2016 00:15:56 +0000:
>
>> Uh, those two dates differ by 9 hours. What time, in Japan time, did you
>> post. Was it as 1:02 Japan time, or was it 10:02?
>
> I just write not real numbers.
> It is the "(UTC)" syntax I tried to disappear.
>
> This is Date header for you.
> Date: Sun, 3 Jul 2016 00:15:56 -0000 (UTC)
> Do you use Pan?

No.

>
> This is Date header for David E. Ross.
> Date: Sat, 2 Jul 2016 16:45:07 -0700
> He do not use Pan!
>
> Pan add "(UTC)" when is not wanted!
> How to disappear the "(UTC)" is the question?

Why do you care? UTC is not a timezone.

[Kazumi Inoue]

Mike Yetto wrote on Sat, 02 Jul 2016 23:02:27 -0400:

> By setting your system to the wrong date, time, or time-zone.

Do your DATE HEADER reveal you are in Eastern Time Zone?
https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Eastern_Time_Zone

From: Mike Yetto <unet.li...@xoxy.net>
Date: Sat, 02 Jul 2016 23:02:27 -0400

Why must tell privacy where you live?

[William Unruh]

On 2016-07-03, Kazumi Inoue <kaz...@inoue.net> wrote:

> Adam H. Kerman wrote on Sun, 03 Jul 2016 02:10:42 +0000:
>
>> Oh for heaven's sake. Who cares? As I told you in the other followup,
>> -0000 means UTC is being used, without regard to local time.
>>
>> -0000 actually means UTC.
>>
>> +0000 means UTC and that local time equals UTC.
>>
>> It's redundant but it doesn't reveal your location.
>
> Your HEADER reveal that you use Pan!
> From: "Adam H. Kerman" <a...@chinet.com>
> Date: Sun, 3 Jul 2016 02:10:42 +0000 (UTC)
>
> Only Pan use this format!
> So you must be use Pan!

Unfortunately all you reveal is your ignorance.

[tlvp]

On Sun, 3 Jul 2016 02:53:16 +0000 (UTC), Kazumi Inoue wrote:

>> From: "Adam H. Kerman" <a...@chinet.com>
>> Date: Sun, 3 Jul 2016 02:10:42 +0000 (UTC)
>
> Only Pan use this format!
> So you must be use Pan!

Wrong: "X-Newsreader: trn 4.0-test77 (Sep 1, 2010)". HTH.

[William Unruh]

["Followup-To:" header set to alt.os.linux.]

On 2016-07-03, Kazumi Inoue <kaz...@inoue.net> wrote:

> Mike Yetto wrote on Sat, 02 Jul 2016 23:02:27 -0400:
>
>> By setting your system to the wrong date, time, or time-zone.
>
> Do your DATE HEADER reveal you are in Eastern Time Zone?
> https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Eastern_Time_Zone
>
> From: Mike Yetto <unet.li...@xoxy.net>
> Date: Sat, 02 Jul 2016 23:02:27 -0400
>
> Why must tell privacy where you live?

Because he does not care. There are only about 1/4 billion people living
in that timezone. Why do you advertise that you live on earth?
And speak English. And have a name. And ha post from
adenine.netfront.net

[Kazumi Inoue]

Mike Yetto wrote on Sat, 02 Jul 2016 23:14:36 -0400:

> No.
> X-Newsreader: trn 4.0-test77 (Sep 1, 2010)
>
> Mike "Keep Calm and Post the Correct Date-Time" Yetto

DATE HEADER tell me you (Mike) use not Pan!
From: Mike Yetto <unet.li...@xoxy.net>
Date: Sat, 02 Jul 2016 23:14:36 -0400

DATE HEADER tell me Adam (Kerman) use only Pan!

From: "Adam H. Kerman" <a...@chinet.com>

Date: Sun, 3 Jul 2016 03:20:52 +0000 (UTC)

Is *only* Pan use not-standard +(UTC} format!
Must change!

How?

[Kazumi Inoue]

William Unruh wrote on Sun, 03 Jul 2016 03:21:57 +0000:

> Then leaving it as UTC, which is NOT a timezone, but is the Universal
> Time coordinate-- ie it is not assocated with any timezone. Why would
> you want to change it if you do not want it revealing your timezone?
> Note t5hat UTC is NOT the same thing as British time for example.

What is different these two?
Date: Sun, 3 Jul 2016 03:21:57 -0000 (UTC)
Date: Sun, 3 Jul 2016 03:21:57 +0000 (UTC)

Both is UTC but is (+) mean SYSTEM CLOCK is UTC also?
Where (-) mean SYSTEM CLOCK is not also UTC?

[Jasen Betts]

On 2016-07-03, Kazumi Inoue <kaz...@inoue.net> wrote:

such characters are not allowd by RFC5536 (which says use numbers
only, and makes no allowance for numbers and letters)
report a bug to the maintainers on pan and/or modify the source
yourself, there is no reason to make the letters optional.

--
This email has not been checked by half-arsed antivirus software

[David E. Ross]

The lack of a time-zone name is a characteristic of Thunderbird and
reflects RFC 5322, which only specifies the zone offset (e.g., +0900 or
-0700). That RFC states that the use of a time-zone name is obsolete.
If Pan inserts the name of the time-zone, it is not in compliance with
the RFC.

The first news server to receive the newsgroup message adds either an
Injection-Date or a NNTP-Posting-Date header line, which contains the
date-time stamp at which the message entered the NNTP system.
NNTP-Posting-Date is actually obsolete, replaced by Injection-Date. My
replies in this thread show the obsolete header line NNTP-Posting-Date
with the date-time stamp in terms of UTC (+0000) with the time-zone name
UTC. Thus, the server where I have an account is also out of compliance
with the RFC.

The presence of UTC in your Date header line is a problem with Pan.
Perhaps you need to use a different news reader. The presence of the
NNTP-Posting-Date header line and the presence of UTC in that header
line's content in both your messages and mine is a problem with the news
servers we are using. I do not know about your server, but how the one
I am using operates is quite outside of my control.

[Kazumi Inoue]

tlvp wrote on Sat, 02 Jul 2016 23:22:12 -0400:

> These are basic headers for you, in Dialog:
>
> : Re: Pan Date header preference setting for time zone : Kazumi Inoue
> <kaz...@inoue.net> 7/3/2016 1:46:50 AM
>
> Is that not what you want? HTH. Cheers, -- tlvp

You only one who understand problem!

Dialog give GOOD DATE HEADER!
From: tlvp <mPiOsUcB...@att.net>
Date: Sat, 2 Jul 2016 23:22:12 -0400
I am not able to tell what newsreader you used!
But I am able to tell where you live!

But Pan give BAD DATE HEADER!

From: "Adam H. Kerman" <a...@chinet.com>
Date: Sun, 3 Jul 2016 03:20:52 +0000 (UTC)

But I am not able to tell where he live!

What is needed by newsreader is CONTROL over DATE HEADER!

Question is: What is Pan XML preference to CONTROL date header?
Note that it is not date but FORMAT SYNTAX to control!

[Kazumi Inoue]

William Unruh wrote on Sun, 03 Jul 2016 03:23:12 +0000:

> Why do you care? UTC is not a timezone.

Why tell whole world in EVERY HEADER that I am use Pan?
Only Pan use +UTC.

No other newsreader use +UTC

YOU are not use Pan because you are -0000 UTC:
From: William Unruh <un...@invalid.ca>
Date: Sun, 3 Jul 2016 03:23:12 -0000 (UTC)

Adam Kerman are use Pan because he is +UTC:

From: "Adam H. Kerman" <a...@chinet.com>
Date: Sun, 3 Jul 2016 03:20:52 +0000 (UTC)

I are use Pan but I am not want to say *PAN* in DATE HEADER!
Why tell world I are use Pan?

This is Pan bug or Pan XML setting!

Just need to fix Pan!
Question is WHERE is XML preference to set Pan DATE syntax?

[Kazumi Inoue]

William Unruh wrote on Sun, 03 Jul 2016 03:24:01 +0000:

> Unfortunately all you reveal is your ignorance.

I am so sorry.
Is a PRIVACY issue only!

Willium HEADER reveal not reveal where you live.
Willium HEADER not reveal news reader agent.

You has privacy!

My HEADER reveal I are using Pan.
Why give up my privacy?

It is only a PRIVACY question.

QUESTION:
Where are Pan XML Preference to set DATE HEADER syntax?

[William Unruh]

On 2016-07-03, Kazumi Inoue <kaz...@inoue.net> wrote:

> William Unruh wrote on Sun, 03 Jul 2016 03:24:01 +0000:
>
>> Unfortunately all you reveal is your ignorance.
>
> I am so sorry.
> Is a PRIVACY issue only!

You gave up your privacy when You posted. You let the world know that
you are a nut, and incapable of spelling or copying.

>
> Willium HEADER reveal not reveal where you live.
> Willium HEADER not reveal news reader agent.

I live in Vancouver.
Who cares?

>
> You has privacy!

Not once I posted.

And you:

wormhole:0[unruh]>ping inoue.net
PING inoue.net (27.96.41.250) 56(84) bytes of data.

whois 27.96.41.250
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So I know lots about you. And you worry that I know that you use
Pan?Sheesh.

>
> My HEADER reveal I are using Pan.
> Why give up my privacy?

What privacy? You hae none.

>
> It is only a PRIVACY question.

Said the woman who walked out naked into Times Square.

[Kazumi Inoue]

David E. Ross wrote on Sat, 02 Jul 2016 20:34:56 -0700:

> The lack of a time-zone name is a characteristic of Thunderbird and
> reflects RFC 5322, which only specifies the zone offset (e.g., +0900 or
> -0700). That RFC states that the use of a time-zone name is obsolete.
> If Pan inserts the name of the time-zone, it is not in compliance with
> the RFC.

Thank you for problem understanding!

Pan is NOT compliance with RFC 5322!
This is privacy question ONLY!

Question is only for he caring of privacy!

Question is how change Pan date format from:

Date: Sun, 3 Jul 2016 03:20:52 +0000 (UTC)

To:
Date: Sun, 3 Jul 2016 03:20:52 -0000

Simple question. Hard answer! :)

> The presence of UTC in your Date header line is a problem with Pan.

It is worse than you say.
It is not only UTC but also + sign!

This is not Pan newsreader DATE HEADER:
Date: Sat, 2 Jul 2016 16:44:34 -0000 (UTC)
This is ONLY Pan newsreader DATE HEADER!
Date: Sat, 2 Jul 2016 16:44:34 +0000 (UTC)

This is privacy problem.
Many newsreader use "-0000" but only Pan use "+0000".

> Perhaps you need to use a different news reader.

:) But that is not question!

Simple question.
Hard answer!

Question is how change Pan date format from:

Date: Sun, 3 Jul 2016 03:20:52 +0000 (UTC)

To:
Date: Sun, 3 Jul 2016 03:20:52 -0000

[Kazumi Inou]

Jasen Betts wrote on Sun, 03 Jul 2016 03:22:13 +0000:

> such characters are not allowd by RFC5536 (which says use numbers only,
> and makes no allowance for numbers and letters)
> report a bug to the maintainers on pan and/or modify the source
> yourself, there is no reason to make the letters optional.

David Ross say RFC 5322 but may be RFC 5536?

Two problems:
1. (UTC) is not RFC 5322 or 5536 compliance
2. +0000 indicates *only* Pan newsreader (is privacy problem!)

Simple question.
Hard answer!

Question is how change Pan date format from:

Date: Sun, 3 Jul 2016 03:20:52 +0000 (UTC)
To:

[Henry Jones]

Kazumi Inoue wrote:

> Is this correct time math?

Isn't Greenwhich GMT+1 this time of year?

[Sirocco Romano]

In nla6el$2uta$1...@adenine.netfront.net, Kazumi Inoue

<kazum...@kazumiinoue.net> wrote:

> Question is how change Pan date format from:
> Date: Sun, 3 Jul 2016 03:20:52 +0000 (UTC)
> To:
> Date: Sun, 3 Jul 2016 03:20:52 -0000

The Pan preferences.xml file is found here.

LINUX $HOME/.pan2/preferences.xml
WINDOWS C:\Documents and Settings\username\preferences.xml

You can edit it with nano on Linux.
You can edit it with notepad on Windows.

I do not know whether or not there is an appropriate setting!

[Henry Jones]

On Sat, 02 Jul 2016 20:34:56 -0700, David E. Ross wrote:

> The first news server to receive the newsgroup message adds either an
> Injection-Date or a NNTP-Posting-Date header line, which contains the
> date-time stamp at which the message entered the NNTP system.
> NNTP-Posting-Date is actually obsolete, replaced by Injection-Date. My
> replies in this thread show the obsolete header line NNTP-Posting-Date
> with the date-time stamp in terms of UTC (+0000) with the time-zone name
> UTC. Thus, the server where I have an account is also out of compliance
> with the RFC.

I believe the UTC inside the parentheses is put there by Pan.
But I believe the plus or minus sign preceding the 0000 is put there by
the news server.

Using Pan with newsserver1, the time might show up as: +0000 (UTC)
Using Pan with newsserver2, the time might show up as: -0000 (UTC)

Pan puts the text; the newsserver puts the ± sign.

[David E. Ross]

While RFC 5536 presents the Date and Injection-Date header lines, it
refers back to RFC 5322 for the definition of the <date-time> contents
of those header lines. It is in RFC 5322 that the use of a time-zone
name is indicated as obsolete.

To change Pan, you must communicate with the developer of that
application. That issue is clearly off-topic in alt.windows7.general,
which is where I see this thread. I am marking my reply as
Followup-To: news.software.readers
Please DO NOT post further discussion in alt.windows7.general of Pan,
how it displays dates, or how it sets the contents of various header
lines.

[Michael Bäuerle]

Kazumi Inou wrote:
> Jasen Betts wrote on Sun, 03 Jul 2016 03:22:13 +0000:
> >
> > such characters are not allowd by RFC5536 (which says use numbers only,
> > and makes no allowance for numbers and letters)
> > report a bug to the maintainers on pan and/or modify the source
> > yourself, there is no reason to make the letters optional.
>
> David Ross say RFC 5322 but may be RFC 5536?
>
> Two problems:
> 1. (UTC) is not RFC 5322 or 5536 compliance

"+0000 (UTC)" is fully compliant, because the "UTC" is in parenthesis
and therefore a comment.

RFC5536 [1] specify the "Date" header field as:
|
| Date:" SP date-time CRLF

and RFC5322 [2] specify the 'date-time' token as:
|
| date-time = [ day-of-week "," ] date time [CFWS]
^^^^
The optional 'CFWS' token at the end allows for folding and comments
as defined in [3].

Also note that [2] specifies:
|
| The date and time-of-day SHOULD express local time.



[Fup2 set to news.software.readers]

_________________
[1] <https://tools.ietf.org/html/rfc5536#section-3.1.1>
[2] <https://tools.ietf.org/html/rfc5322#section-3.3>
[3] <https://tools.ietf.org/html/rfc5322#section-3.2.2>

[J. P. Gilliver (John)]

(Windows 7 removed from followups.)

In message <nla5kt$5kp$1...@dont-email.me>, William Unruh

<un...@invalid.ca> writes:
>On 2016-07-03, Kazumi Inoue <kaz...@inoue.net> wrote:
>> William Unruh wrote on Sun, 03 Jul 2016 03:24:01 +0000:
>>
>>> Unfortunately all you reveal is your ignorance.

He "revealed" that he does not know how to make Pan change its header
format; that was the whole purpose of his post. Most people who are
asking a question are "revealing their ignorance" - that's why they are
asking the question. No need to be rude.

>>
>> I am so sorry.
>> Is a PRIVACY issue only!
>
>You gave up your privacy when You posted. You let the world know that
>you are a nut, and incapable of spelling or copying.
>

OK, we have to do a _little_ head-scratching to understand his English.
I bet it's a lot better than your Japanese though!
[]

>I live in Vancouver.
>Who cares?
>

Certainly not me! I don't know why Kazumi Inoue wants to conceal both
his newsreader and timezone either, but I see no reason to be abusive to
an innocent question (other than the range of newsgroups the query is
posted in).
[]
>And you:
[snipped lots]

>So I know lots about you. And you worry that I know that you use
>Pan?Sheesh.

[]

>> QUESTION:
>> Where are Pan XML Preference to set DATE HEADER syntax?
>>

The question you didn't answer, of course. (Yes, I know I'm not
answering it either, but see no reason to be abusive.)

>>
>> --- news://freenews.netfront.net/ - complaints: ne...@netfront.net ---

--
J. P. Gilliver. UMRA: 1960/<1985 MB++G()AL-IS-Ch++(p)Ar@T+H+Sh0!:`)DNAf

_IMPORTANT INSTRUCTIONS_ BEFORE ALL TECHNICAL INTERVENTION ON THE [CASE CUT THE
ELECTRICAL FEEDING REGULAR MAINTENANCE PROVIDES THE GOOD WORKING OF A CASE (SEE
INSTRUCTIONS BOOK) [seen on bacon cabinet in Tesco (a large grocery chain)]

[J. P. Gilliver (John)]

In message <nla8fq$fc0$1...@news.mixmin.net>, Henry Jones

No. Well, "Greenwich" (only one h) is a location in England (part of
London), so I suppose you _could_ say it is GMT+1, but it is an odd
thing to say (-:!

In the UK, "GMT" is usually assumed to mean 0000, regardless of time of
year; at this time of year, we are indeed on BST (British summer time),
which is indeed an hour ahead. [Personally I've never understood why we
mess with the clocks twice a year: if there are reasons to do things an
hour earlier/later, then just do them - e. g. work 10-4 or 11-6 instead
of 9-5 - but leave the clocks alone. But when I've tried to suggest
this, I've usually been met with incomprehension: not really opposition,
just people don't "get it".]

https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Greenwich
note also that the RGO
(https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Royal_Observatory,_Greenwich) is no
longer at Greenwich (except as a museum); it moved to several more rural
locations, to avoid London's light and the effects of railway
electrification on magnetic readings.
https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Greenwich_Mean_Time - the time reference
(known as "the pips" in UK) - actually now comes from, I believe,
somewhere in Germany, since a date sometime in the 1980s. (Well, the RGO
still provide the reference signal to the BBC, but just relay the
international one.)

(If you have a while to spare,
https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Coordinated_Universal_Time is fascinating
- even to discussing things as far ahead as the 25th century [by when
we'll need four leap-seconds a year].)

[Carlos E.R.]

On 2016-07-03 06:03, Kazumi Inoue wrote:
> tlvp wrote on Sat, 02 Jul 2016 23:22:12 -0400:


> You only one who understand problem!
>
> Dialog give GOOD DATE HEADER!
> From: tlvp <mPiOsUcB...@att.net>
> Date: Sat, 2 Jul 2016 23:22:12 -0400
> I am not able to tell what newsreader you used!

I am. It is clearly written on another header. :-)

--
Cheers, Carlos.

[Carlos E.R.]

On 2016-07-03 07:05, Kazumi Inoue wrote:
> David E. Ross wrote on Sat, 02 Jul 2016 20:34:56 -0700:
>
>> The lack of a time-zone name is a characteristic of Thunderbird and
>> reflects RFC 5322, which only specifies the zone offset (e.g., +0900 or
>> -0700). That RFC states that the use of a time-zone name is obsolete.
>> If Pan inserts the name of the time-zone, it is not in compliance with
>> the RFC.
>
> Thank you for problem understanding!
>
> Pan is NOT compliance with RFC 5322!
> This is privacy question ONLY!

There is not privacy issue. Pan apparently always use "0000 (UTC)"
regardless of what is your actual time zone, so no information is
revealed about you. Not in that line.

--
Cheers, Carlos.

[Adam H. Kerman]

Bullshit crosspost to alt.os.linux,alt.windows7.general cut.

David E. Ross <nob...@nowhere.invalid> wrote:
>On 7/2/2016 6:47 PM, Kazumi Inoue wrote:
>>Adam H. Kerman wrote on Sat, 02 Jul 2016 23:12:15 +0000:

>>>According to this thread from 2003
>>>http://comments.gmane.org/gmane.comp.gnome.apps.pan.user/3895

>>>Pan uses the system clock.

>>Thank you for reference that Pan put SYSTEM TIME in Date header.
>>But I think they talk about MESSAGE TIME and not DATE TIME!

>>Message time is same time zone for all message in thread.
>>Date time is has time zone and is only in header of message.

>>Question about how to disappear the "(UTC)" syntax in Pan DATE HEADER.

>>Date header you use is:
>> Date: Sat, 2 Jul 2016 23:12:15 +0000 (UTC)
>>Date header I use is same!

>>But Date header David E. Ross use has no "(UTC)"!
>> Date: Sat, 2 Jul 2016 16:45:07 -0700
>>That is Date header I am wanting!

>>How to disappear the "(UTC)" in Pan Date header?

>The lack of a time-zone name is a characteristic of Thunderbird and
>reflects RFC 5322, which only specifies the zone offset (e.g., +0900 or
>-0700). That RFC states that the use of a time-zone name is obsolete.
>If Pan inserts the name of the time-zone, it is not in compliance with

>the RFC. . . .

Just about everything in this paragraph is incorrect. Obsolete syntax
IS NOT nonstandard syntax. Obsolete syntax is allowed and required
to be interpreted correctly. But Pan isn't using obsolete syntax to
name the time zone. It's using UTC, the well-known abbreviation for
Coordinated Universal Time, so clarify the meaning of -0000 and placed it
in a comment, as indicated by the parentheses. Obsolete time zone names,
used to indicate the offset from Greenwich, are NEVER comments, so you'd
NEVER see parentheses.

See sections 3.3 and 4.3.

>The presence of UTC in your Date header line is a problem with Pan.

No, it's not, You're simply refusing to understand how the comment on the
Date header was being used. It's being used conventionally, in truth.

[Adam H. Kerman]

Bullshit crosspost to alt.os.linux,alt.windows7.general cut.

William Unruh <un...@invalid.ca> wrote:
>On 2016-07-03, Kazumi Inoue <kaz...@inoue.net> wrote:

>>William Unruh wrote on Sun, 03 Jul 2016 00:15:56 +0000:

>>>What is the time on your computer?

>>I do NOT want NNTP Date HEADER reveal my real time zone.

>>I not care what TIME but not reveal the real time zone is important!

>>What is setting in Pan to set time zone format to not show "UTC"?

>Then leaving it as UTC, which is NOT a timezone, but is the Universal
>Time coordinate-- ie it is not assocated with any timezone. Why would
>you want to change it if you do not want it revealing your timezone?

>Note that UTC is NOT the same thing as British time for example.

>Bizzare.

I don't agree with any of this. Because all the world's navigation maps were
based on the longitude as calculated from Greenwich, the British led the world
into adopting its system of longitude, and therefore, its system of time.

In its various early statutes on civil time, Parliament would use
"Greenwich Mean Time" as the time standard for civil time. I have never
seen a reference to a time zone called "British time" and, unless you
provide a citation to prove that it's in use, I'm calling that wrong. There
is a "British Summer Time" +0100.

In the 1950s and 1960s, a transition was made from mean time to universal
time that's not based on mean time, although GMT continued to be used as an
abbreviation even though it came to mean Coordinated Universal Time (UTC).

UTC is still based on the longitude of Greenwich. btw, mean time is
still offered.

In the UK, on the days that "winter time" is observed, they would indicate
the local time zone as GMT or UTC, as both now mean the same thing.

UTC can indeed be used as the local time zone, and has no offset from itself.
In email and News, we use +0000 to indicate that UTC is local time.

A significant number of dates in headers in this thread have been using +0000
in a nonstandard way, hah!

[Mike Yetto]

So it is writ, so mote it be....
Kazumi Inoue <kaz...@inoue.net>:

> William Unruh wrote on Sun, 03 Jul 2016 03:24:01 +0000:

>> Unfortunately all you reveal is your ignorance.

> I am so sorry.
> Is a PRIVACY issue only!

> Willium HEADER reveal not reveal where you live.
> Willium HEADER not reveal news reader agent.

Except for "User-Agent: slrn/1.0.1 (Linux)" which is beyond a
hint, wrongly interpreted, in the Date: header.

> You has privacy!

> I are using Pan.

Mike "I.M. Weasel" Yetto
--
"If two things don't fit, but you believe both of them, thinking that
somewhere, hidden, there must be a third thing that connects them, that's
credulity."
- Umberto Eco

[Mike Easter]

Kazumi Inoue wrote:
> I do NOT want NNTP Date HEADER reveal my real time zone.
>
> I not care what TIME but not reveal the real time zone is important!
>
> What is setting in Pan to set time zone format to not show "UTC"?

You are 'mistaken' in what you think you want.

What you ACTUALLY want is for your headers to NOT show what your tz is,
which is apparently JST. That is a privacy choice.

However, it is 'necessary' for the Date header to be 'correct' (without
necessarily revealing the tz of the poster).

The 'protocol' for that pair of conditions is for the poster to use UTC
(which is like GMT) as the date/time and to put +0000 as the offset
instead of -0000 which is the offset which would be used if the poster
were actually in the no offset tz.

The/Your message I am replying to now satisfies both of those
conditions. It shows that your message has the correct date time and
that it has the zero offset and also the correct 'sign' +0000. That is
also the way the news server stamps your message.

Your stamp:

Date: Sun, 3 Jul 2016 01:40:28 +0000 (UTC)

The netfront server stamp:

NNTP-Posting-Date: Sun, 3 Jul 2016 01:40:28 +0000 (UTC)

Perfect. You don't need to fix anything.


--
Mike Easter

[Adam H. Kerman]

Bullshit crosspost to alt.os.linux,alt.windows7.general cut.

Kazumi Inoue <kaz...@inoue.net> wrote:
>William Unruh wrote on Sun, 03 Jul 2016 03:21:57 +0000:

>>Then leaving it as UTC, which is NOT a timezone, but is the Universal
>>Time coordinate-- ie it is not assocated with any timezone. Why would
>>you want to change it if you do not want it revealing your timezone?
>>Note t5hat UTC is NOT the same thing as British time for example.

>What is different these two?
> Date: Sun, 3 Jul 2016 03:21:57 -0000 (UTC)
> Date: Sun, 3 Jul 2016 03:21:57 +0000 (UTC)

>Both is UTC but is (+) mean SYSTEM CLOCK is UTC also?
>Where (-) mean SYSTEM CLOCK is not also UTC?

I've already explained this to you; it has nothing to do with your
system clock.

-0000 means the host (whether the Date header was created at the client's host
or the server's host) doesn't indicate local time and instead uses Coordinated
Universal Time without offset.

+0000 means UTC is also local time. During the period in which British
Summer Time is in effect, portions of equitorial African remain on UTC
throughout the year, as the concept of "saving daylight" is meaningless
in equitorial areas, but that's it.

[Whiskers]

Very unlikely. No news-server should touch a header provided by a user;
pass it on unchanged, drop it completely, or reject the post, but never
ever change anything.

--
-- ^^^^^^^^^^
-- Whiskers
-- ~~~~~~~~~~

[Adam H. Kerman]

Bullshit crosspost to alt.os.linux,alt.windows7.general cut.

Mike Easter <Mi...@ster.invalid> wrote:

>The 'protocol' for that pair of conditions is for the poster to use UTC
>(which is like GMT) as the date/time and to put +0000 as the offset
>instead of -0000 which is the offset which would be used if the poster
>were actually in the no offset tz.

You got it backwards.

+0000 means UTC is local time.
-0000 means UTC without indicating local time.

[Mike Yetto]

So it is writ, so mote it be....
Kazumi Inoue <kaz...@inoue.net>:

> Mike Yetto wrote on Sat, 02 Jul 2016 23:14:36 -0400:

>> No.
>> X-Newsreader: trn 4.0-test77 (Sep 1, 2010)
>>

> DATE HEADER tell me you (Mike) use not Pan!
> From: Mike Yetto <unet.li...@xoxy.net>
> Date: Sat, 02 Jul 2016 23:14:36 -0400

Actually, the following header is what tells everyone that I am
not using Pan. It also tells everyone that I am not using Xnews,
trn, or claws-mail.

User-Agent: slrn/pre1.0.3-10/co (no scalding tea, just Leafnode2)

> DATE HEADER tell me Adam (Kerman) use only Pan!

> From: "Adam H. Kerman" <a...@chinet.com>

> Date: Sun, 3 Jul 2016 03:20:52 +0000 (UTC)

> Is *only* Pan use not-standard +(UTC} format!
> Must change!

> How?

Mike "is it time to RTFM?" Yetto
--
"I've always thought that YouTube, Twitter and Facebook should
merge. It could be called YouTwitFace."
- Wildman

[Adam H. Kerman]

Bullshit crosspost to alt.os.linux,alt.windows7.general cut.

Kazumi Inoue <kaz...@inoue.net> wrote:
>Mike Yetto wrote on Sat, 02 Jul 2016 23:02:27 -0400:

>>By setting your system to the wrong date, time, or time-zone.

>Do your DATE HEADER reveal you are in Eastern Time Zone?
>https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Eastern_Time_Zone

> From: Mike Yetto <unet.li...@xoxy.net>
> Date: Sat, 02 Jul 2016 23:02:27 -0400

>Why must tell privacy where you live?

Hi, Mike. I'm in -0500. I can see you from my porch.

(Waves)

[»Q«]

On Sun, 3 Jul 2016 14:22:10 +0000 (UTC)
"Adam H. Kerman" <a...@chinet.com> wrote:

> Date: Sun, 3 Jul 2016 14:22:10 +0000 (UTC)

> Mike Easter <Mi...@ster.invalid> wrote:
>
> >The 'protocol' for that pair of conditions is for the poster to use
> >UTC (which is like GMT) as the date/time and to put +0000 as the
> >offset instead of -0000 which is the offset which would be used if
> >the poster were actually in the no offset tz.
>
> You got it backwards.
>
> +0000 means UTC is local time.
> -0000 means UTC without indicating local time.

On Sun, 3 Jul 2016 14:27:50 +0000 (UTC)
"Adam H. Kerman" <a...@chinet.com> wrote:

> Hi, Mike. I'm in -0500. I can see you from my porch.

I don't care which, but either your trn has the +/- distinction
backwards or you do.

[Mike Easter]

Kazumi Inoue wrote:
> What is different these two?
> Date: Sun, 3 Jul 2016 03:21:57 -0000 (UTC)
> Date: Sun, 3 Jul 2016 03:21:57 +0000 (UTC)
>
> Both is UTC but is (+) mean SYSTEM CLOCK is UTC also?
> Where (-) mean SYSTEM CLOCK is not also UTC?

The -0000 means that the posters localtime is the same as UTC, no
offset. The +0000 means that the poster *chooses* to use UTC as the
system/date time, but that the poster's localtime might be something else.

--
Mike Easter

[Whiskers]

On 2016-07-03, Kazumi Inoue <kaz...@inoue.net> wrote:
> William Unruh wrote on Sun, 03 Jul 2016 03:21:57 +0000:
>
>> Then leaving it as UTC, which is NOT a timezone, but is the Universal
>> Time coordinate-- ie it is not assocated with any timezone. Why would
>> you want to change it if you do not want it revealing your timezone?
>> Note t5hat UTC is NOT the same thing as British time for example.
>

> What is different these two?
> Date: Sun, 3 Jul 2016 03:21:57 -0000 (UTC)
> Date: Sun, 3 Jul 2016 03:21:57 +0000 (UTC)
>
> Both is UTC but is (+) mean SYSTEM CLOCK is UTC also?
> Where (-) mean SYSTEM CLOCK is not also UTC?

As far as the time is concerned there is no difference at all, of
course.

According to RFC3339:

4.3. Unknown Local Offset Convention

If the time in UTC is known, but the offset to local time is
unknown, this can be represented with an offset of "-00:00". This
differs semantically from an offset of "Z" or "+00:00", which imply
that UTC is the preferred reference point for the specified time.
RFC2822 [IMAIL-UPDATE] describes a similar convention for email.

In plain English, that says that if your machine knows what time it is
in 'World Time' terms but doesn't know what time zone it is in then you
can use "-00:00" as the offset. Why anyone would want to reveal that
they don't know where they are, is anyone's guess.

But I don't think I've ever seen a usenet post with its date expressed
in the format recommended by that RFC - which for the date and time in
your example above would be

2016-07-03T03:21:57Z
or 2016-07-03T03:21:57+00:00
or 2016-07-03T03:21:57-00:00

so it's anyone's guess what

Sun, 3 Jul 2016 03:21:57 -0000 (UTC)

says about your computer's knowledge of its local timezone.

Notice that ISO 8601 (which RFC3339 purports to create an internet
standard for) specifically forbids use of an offset of "-0000".

So Pan seems to be ignoring both RFC3339 and ISO 8601. But so is
almost everyone else.

[Henry Jones]

On Sun, 03 Jul 2016 14:20:42 +0000, Whiskers wrote:

> Very unlikely. No news-server should touch a header provided by a user;
> pass it on unchanged, drop it completely, or reject the post, but never
> ever change anything.

Whiskers, Davie E. Ross, Adam H. Kerman, & Carlos E.R.,

This is very interesting, and is something I noticed a while ago but that
I never delved deeper into.

Let's nail this down, 'cuz it's weird!

I completely *understand* what you said, and I would most emphatically
agree with you (that the news server should not CHANGE the DATE header)
had my own experiments not have proven otherwise!

Why or how the ± sign changes based on newsservers, I cannot explain.

But, if you wish, I can run some experiments for you to prove that Pan
only seems to add the "0000 (UTC)". In my quick test yesterday, the
newserver seems to determine the ± sign.

I could test better if I knew how to *telnet* to one of these no-
registration free newsservers, so that I would not be using a news server
at all, that would help us determine whether the news server or the news
agent is adding that ± sign.

I will look up how to telnet to speak nntp protocol to test this further
but as one step in a multi-step experiment, I have changed my news server
in the NNTP header above.

[Adam H. Kerman]

I'm not using the client to create the Date header in the proto article.
Therefore, it's supplied by the server. Yell at Roman. As one or both
Mikes noted, any number of us have nonstandard usage of +0000 in various
headers that use date syntax.

It's explained in RFC 2822 Section 3.3, based on an ANSI standard.

[Adam H. Kerman]

Bullshit crosspost to alt.os.linux,alt.windows7.general eliminated.

Aargh.

Please stop saying that. You're inserting error unnecessarily. Re-read
RFC 2822 Sec. 3.3.

[Henry Jones]

On Sun, 03 Jul 2016 14:41:22 +0200, Carlos E.R. wrote:

> There is not privacy issue. Pan apparently always use "0000 (UTC)"
> regardless of what is your actual time zone, so no information is
> revealed about you. Not in that line.

I agree with Carlos and Whiskers and Adam and David, that this is not a
privacy issue at all.

However, it is interesting that the newsserver seems to be determining the
value of the ± sign and not the newsreader or the operating system of the
user!

I have posted just now using mixmin and aioe and now I post with the same
newsserver as the OP seems to be using which is netfront.

I have noticed in the past that the ± sign changes *depending on the news
server!*

How that can possibly be that the newsserver inserts the ± sign is well
beyond my experience, but the proof that the newsserver inserts ± sign is
in the taste of the pudding, or, as shown in the NNTP headers above.

[Henry Jones]

On Sun, 03 Jul 2016 15:24:46 +0000, Henry Jones wrote:

> Why or how the ± sign changes based on newsservers, I cannot explain.

Here are ± sign results from three tests on the same machine where I try
to reproduce what the OP is asking about as well as I can with respect to
the ± sign.

1. Aioe (plus sign before the UTC time of 0000)
From: Henry Jones <he...@example.com>
Subject: Re: Pan Date header preference setting for time zone
Date: Sun, 3 Jul 2016 15:24:46 +0000 (UTC)
Organization: Aioe.org NNTP Server

2. Mixmin (*minus* sign before the UTC time of 0000)
From: Henry Jones <he...@example.com>
Subject: Re: Pan Date header preference setting for time zone
Date: Sun, 3 Jul 2016 05:53:26 -0000 (UTC)
Organization: Mixmin
Injection-Date: Sun, 3 Jul 2016 05:53:26 -0000 (UTC)

3. Netfront (plus sign before the UTC time of 0000)
From: Henry Jones <he...@example.com>
Subject: Re: Pan Date header preference setting for time zone
Date: Sun, 3 Jul 2016 16:14:30 +0000 (UTC)
Organization: Netfront http://www.netfront.net/
NNTP-Posting-Date: Sun, 3 Jul 2016 16:14:30 +0000 (UTC)

4. telnet newsserver port
(I need to look up how to run this quick test)

Notice that I tried to reproduce the OP as reliably as possible and
changed nothing but the newsserver.

I can *not* explain why mixmin changed the ± sign to minus while aioe and
netfront changed it to a plus.

Can you?

[Henry Jones]

On Sun, 03 Jul 2016 14:19:47 +0000, Adam H. Kerman wrote:

> -0000 means the host (whether the Date header was created at the
> client's host or the server's host) doesn't indicate local time and
> instead uses Coordinated Universal Time without offset.
>
> +0000 means UTC is also local time. During the period in which British
> Summer Time is in effect, portions of equitorial African remain on UTC
> throughout the year, as the concept of "saving daylight" is meaningless
> in equitorial areas, but that's it.

Adam and Mike and David and Whiskers, how can you explain my experiment
where I get a *different ± sign* depending on the newsserver that I test?

I can't explain it.
But it's easy to prove.

0. I installed Pan 0.140 from http://pan.rebelbase.com/download/

1. I tested using Aioe (which put a plus sign before the UTC time of 0000)

Date: Sun, 3 Jul 2016 15:24:46 +0000 (UTC)
Organization: Aioe.org NNTP Server

2. I tested using Mixmin (which put a *minus* sign before the UTC time of
0000)

Date: Sun, 3 Jul 2016 05:53:26 -0000 (UTC)
Organization: Mixmin
Injection-Date: Sun, 3 Jul 2016 05:53:26 -0000 (UTC)

3. I tested using Netfront (which put a plus sign before the UTC time of
0000)

Date: Sun, 3 Jul 2016 16:14:30 +0000 (UTC)
Organization: Netfront http://www.netfront.net/
NNTP-Posting-Date: Sun, 3 Jul 2016 16:14:30 +0000 (UTC)

4. I will look up how to test using telnet.
telnet newsserver port

Notice that I tried to reproduce the OP as reliably as possible and
changed nothing but the newsserver.

I can *not* explain why mixmin changed the ± sign to minus while aioe and

netfront changed it to a plus. My time zone is local time on my computer.

[Whiskers]

On 2016-07-03, Henry Jones <he...@example.com> wrote:

What did you *send* in the Date: header in each instance? It must have
contained either a +0000 or -0000 every time. Why mixmin differs, is a
good question.

[»Q«]

On Sun, 3 Jul 2016 16:10:48 +0000 (UTC)

It's not a MUST, only a SHOULD, so I won't yell at anybody.

[Mike Easter]

Henry Jones wrote:
> Here are ± sign results from three tests on the same machine where I try
> to reproduce what the OP is asking about as well as I can with respect to
> the ± sign.

If you mean that you are using the ± sign in the Date for your test, I
don't believe that is an optimal test.

I believe that the + or - test should be run with both/each a + sign and
(or) a - sign to determine THOSE results. ± 0xB1 is not an ascii char.

--
Mike Easter

[Henry Jones]

This is a telnet test of the NNTP date header.
The date was specified in the t header as
...Date: Sun, 3 Jul 2016 01:00:00 -1234 (COMMENT)

[Henry Jones]

This is another telnet test of the date when given in the header.
The date this time was specific ei ed wih using a + sign.
Date: Sun, 3 Jul 2016 01:00:00 +1234 (COMMENT)

[Henry Jones]

Ooops. I meant to post sans a date in the header.
Will tray y again.

[Henry Jones]

This is a telnet post WITHOUT an specifying any date headers!
Henry

[Henry Jones]

On Sun, 03 Jul 2016 17:28:18 +0000, Whiskers wrote:

> What did you *send* in the Date: header in each instance? It must have
> contained either a +0000 or -0000 every time. Why mixmin differs, is a
> good question.

I didn't put ANYTHING in as the date header when I sent the messages from
Pan 0.140. Nothing. There is no place to put it in Pan.

Pan just has:
From:
Subject:
Newsgroup:
Main To:

The local time zone is specified.
So it *must* be the *newsserver* who is inserting that date.

When I tested it with telnet, if I *specified* a date, that date was used.
But when I tested it with telnet, if I did not specify a date, the
newsserver inserted the date!

Try this telnet test which shows the newsserver is *inserting* the date!
-------------------------------------------
telnet nntp.aioe.org 119
help
group news.software.readers
211 284 29228 29522 news.software.readers
next
article 29500
head
body
next
post
From: Henry Jones <he...@example.com>

Date: Sun, 3 Jul 2016 01:00:00 -1234 (COMMENT)

Newsgroups: news.software.readers

Subject: Re: Pan Date header preference setting for time zone

Message-ID: <abcdefg1230...@news.albasani.org>
References: <nlbde8$pem$1...@news.albasani.net>
MUST MANUALLY INSERT A blank line HERE!

This is a telnet test of the NNTP date header.

The Date was specified as:

Date: Sun, 3 Jul 2016 01:00:00 -1234 (COMMENT)

.
post
From: Henry Jones <he...@example.com>
Newsgroups: news.software.readers

Subject: Re: Pan Date header preference setting for time zone

Message-ID: <abcdefg123098x...@news.albasani.org>
References: <nlbde8$pem$1...@news.albasani.net>
MUST MANUALLY INSERT A blank line HERE!

This is a telnet test of the NNTP date header.

The Date was NOT specified!
.
quit

[Henry Jones]

On Sun, 03 Jul 2016 18:07:03 +0000, Henry Jones wrote:

> Date: Sun, 3 Jul 2016 18:07:03 +0000 (UTC)
> This is a telnet post WITHOUT specifying any date headers!
> Henry

Notice what happened with Telnet when no date was specified!

How can that be?
Date: Sun, 3 Jul 2016 18:07:03 +0000 (UTC)

This makes no sense because it appears that aioe inserted the +0000 and
the (UTC) comment.

Maybe aioe *remembered* what I last typed into telnet as a date?

I'll have to test again in a *separate* telnet session!

Henry

[Mike Easter]

Henry Jones wrote:
> I didn't put ANYTHING in as the date header when I sent the messages from
> Pan 0.140. Nothing. There is no place to put it in Pan.

In the very old news from 2000, Pan addresses a number of Date: related
bugs which were fixed in those old .8 series versions.

http://pan.rebelbase.com/oldnews/oldnews-08.html (see search page on
Date:) Pan says it inserts Date.

0.140 is a different 'pan2 era'. Old v./s
http://pan.rebelbase.com/download/releases/


--
Mike Easter

[Henry Jones]

This is a telnet session without specifying the date.
Here is what I specified.
I am using WinXP cmd line and the machine is set to the local TZ.

.
post
340 Ok, recommended message-ID <nlblu3$1dst$1...@gioia.aioe.org>
References: <nl7o57$1fk5$1...@adenine.netfront.net> <nl9qec$1tgk$1...@adenine.netfront
.net> <nla0cl$qiu$1...@dont-email.me> <nla11g$2fsq$2...@adenine.netfront.net>
Message-ID: <nlblu3$1dst$1...@gioia.aioe.org>

[Mike Easter]

Whiskers wrote:
> No news-server should touch a header provided by a user;
> pass it on unchanged, drop it completely, or reject the post, but never
> ever change anything.

In the old days, EarthLink used to run its own news servers before it
outsourced the job to SuperNews and then/now to Giganews.

During the EL in-house nntp days, it ALWAYS replaced the user's Date
header content with its own accurate time/date values, thus avoiding the
possible 'problem' of a user's Date being wrong, which must've caused
some kind of trouble at EL's end. I guess.

--
Mike Easter

[Henry Jones]

On Sun, 03 Jul 2016 11:33:24 -0700, Mike Easter wrote:

> In the very old news from 2000, Pan addresses a number of Date: related
> bugs which were fixed in those old .8 series versions.

I saw that.
I never said I knew what I was talking about though! :)

I think I am beginning to know what is happening.

> http://pan.rebelbase.com/oldnews/oldnews-08.html (see search page on

> Date Pan says it inserts Date.

Yep. I believe you.
I do not think the user has *any* control over the date.

However ... if Pan is inserting the date, then why did Mixmin have a
negative -0000 time when aioe and netfront had a positive +0000 time?

Perhaps it's because Mixmin uses port 563/SSL and Aioe and Netfront used
port 119?

However, that doesn't explain how we got a "+0000 (UTC)" using telnet
only, without inserting the date!

telnet nntp.aioe.org 119
help
post
-> 340 Ok, recommended message-ID <nlblu3$1dst$1...@gioia.aioe.org>
References: <nl7o57$1fk5$1...@adenine.netfront.net>
Message-ID: <nlblu3$1dst$1...@gioia.aioe.org>

From: Henry Jones <he...@example.com>
Newsgroups: news.software.readers
Subject: Re: Pan Date header preference setting for time zone

This is a test of not specifying the date in telnet to aioe.
.
quit

> 0.140 is a different 'pan2 era'. Old v./s
> http://pan.rebelbase.com/download/releases/

Huh? I'm confused.
I downloaded the very *latest* Pan (or so I thought).
The latest, as of 2016, is version 0.140.
Is it not?

Anyway, it's pretty clear what is happening, although I can't explain it.
The simplest solution is to telnet into aioe and specify the date.

Three tests tell us what we need to know.
1) Telnet and do not specify a date or comment.
2) Telnet and specify a +0000 date & comment.
3) Telnet and specify a -0000 time & comment.

1) When I do not specify a date, aioe inserts the + and the (UTC)
+0000 (UTC)
2) When I specify the + date, I get exactly what I specify
+0000 (comment)
3) When I specify the - date, I get exactly what I specify
-0000 (comment)

Since Pan is not involved when I telnet to nntp.aioe.org:119, either my
operating system (WinXP) is giving aioe the date, or, more likely, aioe
*knows* the date, and it's aioe who inserts the "+0000 (UTC)".

Are any of you using aioe?
Can you test this out?

[Henry Jones]

This is a telnet to nntp.aioe.org 118 9 from the Dos OS WINXP commadn lin nd line.
I did not specifiy a put a date header .
My WinXP machine is set to a local time zone.

How the d Date header gets there I have no idea.

This is what Ityp typed
post
Message-ID: <nlbod5$1hoj$2...@gioia.aioe.org>
References: <nl7o57$1fk5$1...@adenine.netfront.net>
From: Henry Jones <he...@example.com>
Newsgroups: news.software.readers,alt.os.linux,alt.windows7.general

[Henry Jones]

This is a test of telnet the following specifying the date but without the 0000 stuff or comment.

telnet nntp.aioe.org 119
post
340 Ok, recommended message-ID <nlbooj$1hoj$4...@gioia.aioe.org>
Message-ID: <nlbooj$1hoj$4...@gioia.aioe.org>

References: <nl7o57$1fk5$1...@adenine.netfront.net>
From: Henry Jones <he...@example.com>
Newsgroups: news.software.readers,alt.os.linux,alt.windows7.general
Subject: Re: Pan Date header preference setting for time zone

Date: Sun, 3 Jul 2016 18:35:00

[Henry Jones]

The funny boxes are where I typed a backspace.
(Don't ask how much I hate the DOS command-line window where cutting
and pasting is like being in prison and trying to break out from the
inside.)

[Mike Easter]

Henry Jones wrote:
> I think I am beginning to know what is happening.

I think that Pan is inserting the Date and I think the best/ most
consistent test/challenge would be to post a properly configured Date.

I believe that if a Date line is not included, there will be more
variability in what different news servers do.

Given that a Date is going to be inserted, the experimenter would choose
how to vary the Date, such as + or - 0000 or even one with a tz offset.

--
Mike Easter

[Henry Jones]

On Sun, 03 Jul 2016 13:22:17 -0700, Mike Easter wrote:

> I think that Pan is inserting the Date and I think the best/ most
> consistent test/challenge would be to post a properly configured Date.
>
> I believe that if a Date line is not included, there will be more
> variability in what different news servers do.
>
> Given that a Date is going to be inserted, the experimenter would choose
> how to vary the Date, such as + or - 0000 or even one with a tz offset.

I still do not understand how to interpret my experiments, but I don't
think it's Pan, per se, which is inserting the date.

It *might* be Pan inserting the date; but the date *always* gets inserted
whether or not Pan puts it there (which was proven in the telnet
experiments).

I can think of only 4 ways the date can get there:

0. The user manually inserts the date (which seems impossible with Pan).
2. Pan inserts the date (which flies against the evidence of mixmin having
a different date format than aioe/netfront using the same Pan application!)
3. The OS is inserting the date (in my case, this being WinXP) which might
fit the evidence because mixmin uses a different OS commands, I think,
than does aioe/netfront.
4. The server inserts the date (which we *know* to be true because when I
telnet and don't provide a date, a date is provided for me).

The evidence is clear.
But the interpretation of the evidence is not.
So I may be wrong and I await someone who knows more than I do to make
sense of why the telnet sessions turned out the way they did.

If anyone knows how to telnet to mixmin 563, please tell me how to handle
the certificate. I suspect if we can telnet to mixmin, we will solve the
enigma instantly.

[tlvp]

On Sun, 3 Jul 2016 04:03:07 +0000 (UTC), Kazumi Inoue wrote:

> I am not able to tell what newsreader you used!

Can you not see the header line

> User-Agent: 40tude_Dialog/2.0.15.41

atop my post? That tells what newsclient I'm using.

HTH. Cheers, -- tlvp
--
Avant de repondre, jeter la poubelle, SVP.

[Ken Blake]

On Sun, 3 Jul 2016 16:47:27 -0400, tlvp <mPiOsUcB...@att.net>
wrote:

>On Sun, 3 Jul 2016 04:03:07 +0000 (UTC), Kazumi Inoue wrote:
>
>> I am not able to tell what newsreader you used!
>
>Can you not see the header line
>
>> User-Agent: 40tude_Dialog/2.0.15.41
>
>atop my post? That tells what newsclient I'm using.

To see headers, you have to turn the viewing of headers on (for
example, in Forte Agent, which I'm using, you press the H key), and
not everyone knows how to do that.

And I don't know for sure, but I wouldn't be surprised if some
newsreaders don't even give you the ability to show headers.

[Mike Yetto]

So it is writ, so mote it be....
Adam H. Kerman <a...@chinet.com>:
> Bullshit crosspost to alt.os.linux,alt.windows7.general cut.

> Kazumi Inoue <kaz...@inoue.net> wrote:
>>Mike Yetto wrote on Sat, 02 Jul 2016 23:02:27 -0400:

>>>By setting your system to the wrong date, time, or time-zone.

>>Do your DATE HEADER reveal you are in Eastern Time Zone?
>>https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Eastern_Time_Zone

>> From: Mike Yetto <unet.li...@xoxy.net>
>> Date: Sat, 02 Jul 2016 23:02:27 -0400

>>Why must tell privacy where you live?

> Hi, Mike. I'm in -0500. I can see you from my porch.

> (Waves)

Easy, Big Guy. If you wave any more enthusiastically you'll fall
off your porch.

Mike "I guess it does tell everyone where you are" Yetto
--
"Man is a credulous animal, and must believe something; in the absence of good
grounds for belief, he will be satisfied with bad ones."
- Bertrand Russell

[Henry Jones]

On +0000, Whiskers wrote:

> Very unlikely. No news-server should touch a header provided by a user;

> pass it on unchanged, drop it completely, or reject the post, but never
> ever change anything.

I don't claim to understand this stuff but I don't think *anyone* here
does either.

These are facts:

1. I telnet to aioe from WinXP with a US Timezone and if I don't put a
date, a time & comment of the following format is put there for me by
*something*.
Sun, 03 Jul 2016 14:20:42

2. I telnet to aioe from WinXP and whatever I put as a date shows up
verbatim, whether I put:
Sun, 03 Jul 2016 14:20:42 +0000 (comment)
Sun, 03 Jul 2016 14:20:42 +1234
Sun, 03 Jul 2016 14:20:42
etc.

3. In Pan, there is no way I know of to set the date, but if I use aioe or
netfront, I get a date format of:
Sun, 03 Jul 2016 14:20:42 +0000 (UTC)

4. Yet, in Pan, if I go to Mixmin (port 563), I get a date format of:
Sun, 03 Jul 2016 14:20:42 -0000 (UTC)

Those are all easily verified facts.
If anyone can explain them, I'm all ears.

[Henry Jones]

On Sun, 03 Jul 2016 11:47:15 -0700, Mike Easter wrote:

> During the EL in-house nntp days, it ALWAYS replaced the user's Date
> header content with its own accurate time/date values, thus avoiding the
> possible 'problem' of a user's Date being wrong, which must've caused
> some kind of trouble at EL's end. I guess.

When I was telnetting into aioe, I was experimenting with various DATE
formats, and half of them failed because of either syntax errors or they
were too far off from aioe's own internal clocks.

I must have gotten at least 3 or 4 *different* messages when the syntax
was correct, but the dates I entered in were too far off so there is a
*lot* of error checking going on at the server level.

[David E. Ross]

The Date header field is normally set by your newsreader, either when
you finish composing the message or else when you send the message
(varies by application). Since that header field is mandatory and you
did not create one via Telnet, Aioa added it when it received your
message.

On the other hand, an Injection-Date header field is optional. If this
is inserted into your message, that is done by the first newsgroup
server that receives your message. Aoia did not insert this.

--
David E. Ross
<http://www.rossde.com/>.

Is it true that Donald Trump refuses to reveal his
income tax returns because he uses so many questionable
loopholes that he pays no taxes? See
<http://www.thedailybeast.com/articles/2016/06/15/new-evidence-donald-trump-didn-t-pay-taxes.html>.

[David E. Ross]

A lack of time-zone information causes the news server to treat your
message as if the Date header field is for UTC. Some servers will add
+0000 or -0000. Aioe did not.

[Mike Yetto]

So it is writ, so mote it be....

Henry Jones <he...@example.com>:

When you don't supply a Date: header the server will supply one.
I think this has been explained a few times in this thread.

When the server supplies the header in UTC it will obey the rules
regarding '+' or '-' as they apply to the server supplying the
header, not the newsreader that isn't supplying the header.

Those rules have been discussed in this thread as well.

What hasn't been spelled out in a simple way is that the server
builds the Date: header using those rules based on its own clock
and time zone settings, not on the one not supplied by the news
reader.

Could it be that Pan doesn't supply the Date: header at all? I
use slrn with leafnode2 as the local news server and that header
seems to be coming from leafnode2.

Mike "step back and think it out" Yetto
--
"The important thing in science is not so much to obtain new facts as to
discover new ways of thinking about them."
- Sir William Henry Bragg, Nobel Prize for Physics, 1915

[Henry Jones]

On Sun, 03 Jul 2016 14:57:59 -0700, David E. Ross wrote:

> A lack of time-zone information causes the news server to treat your
> message as if the Date header field is for UTC. Some servers will add
> +0000 or -0000. Aioe did not.

Yes. I agree. Aioe, which is the only one I've tried to telnet into,
pretty much accepted whatever Date line I gave it, as long as the syntax
was valid and as long as the time was within range.

Probably half my attempts failed, by the way, because of a typo of some
sort or the bogus times I provided off the cuff were out of range, so,
there is quite a bit of error checking going on.

BTW, typing nntp protocol commands into a DOS cmd window is something you
should all try at least once in your life. All those boxes are backspaces
where cutting and pasting is miserable.

Anyway, it would be good if I could telnet into mixmin at SSL port 563,
but I don't know how to handle the SSL certificates. Do you?

[Henry Jones]

On Sun, 03 Jul 2016 14:54:43 -0700, David E. Ross wrote:

> The Date header field is normally set by your newsreader, either when
> you finish composing the message or else when you send the message
> (varies by application). Since that header field is mandatory and you
> did not create one via Telnet, Aioa added it when it received your
> message.
>
> On the other hand, an Injection-Date header field is optional. If this
> is inserted into your message, that is done by the first newsgroup
> server that receives your message. Aoia did not insert this.

Thank you for analyzing the results of the telnet test to aioe.
One problem I kept getting was how to *reply* to a message using telnet.

Apparently I had to use the "References" line, as in:
References: <nl7o57$1fk5$1...@adenine.netfront.net>

But I couldn't figure out the syntax.
Eventually I gave up and just copied a reference, but then that makes the
post go in the wrong spot.

While you're in telnet, and after you read the header of a message you
want to reply to, how do you *find* what *References* header to use?

What are the multiple references?
Where do they come from?

Example:
telnet nntp.aioe.org 119
group news.software.newsreaders
next
head
body
.... how do you REPLY to a message at this point?
(You need a "References" line but how do you construct it?)

[Mike Easter]

Henry Jones wrote:
> Anyway, it would be good if I could telnet into mixmin at SSL port 563,
> but I don't know how to handle the SSL certificates. Do you?

Don't use telnet, but instead a telnet derivative that does ssl such as
telnet-ssl or such as openssl. I linux command:

openssl s_client -connect news.mixmin.net:563

--
Mike Easter

[Whiskers]

Certainly if the user doesn't supply a Date header the server will, just
as happens with the Message-ID header. If the server doesn't think the
user-supplied Date header is 'correct' then it should either reject the
post or insert a separate header of its own, 'NNTP-Posting-Date'. Some
servers always insert that header.

When I had a dial-up internet connection, I used to post via a local
caching proxy news-server (Hamster or Leafnode), dialing up to log in to
the news-server at regular intervals or when I'd got a batch of posts to
send. That could result in my posts appearing with a wide range of Date
headers (several hours sometimes) but with NNTP-Posting-Date headers all
at the same time or within a minute or so. Keen eyed geeky readers
sometimes commented on this. I believe my local proxy server (running
on my own computer) was inserting the Date headers when I wrote the
articles; the NNTP-Posting-Date was being supplied by the upstream
server I was posting to.

--
-- ^^^^^^^^^^
-- Whiskers
-- ~~~~~~~~~~

[Mike Easter]

Whiskers wrote:
> Keen eyed geeky readers

Volunteer clock police courtesy notice :-)

--
Mike Easter

[Whiskers]

On 2016-07-02, Henry Jones <he...@example.com> wrote:
> Ooops. I meant to post sans a date in the header.
> Will tray y again.

The headers of that post seem to show that AIOE isn't changing the Date
or Message-ID headers you provide (and notice the effect your offset of
+1234 has on my software interpreting the date for the attribution line
above).

These are the headers I see for your post (the References header has
been truncated - I do see more than that):

Path:uni-berlin.de!fu-berlin.de!news.unit0.net!news.mixmin.net!aioe.org!.POSTED!not-for-mail

From: Henry Jones <he...@example.com>
Newsgroups: news.software.readers

Subject: Re: Pan Date header preference setting for time zone

Date: Sun, 3 Jul 2016 01:00:00 +1234 (COMMENT)
Organization: Aioe.org NNTP Server
Lines: 2
Message-ID: <abcdefg1230...@news.albasani.org>
References: <nl8r1i$23fi$1...@adenine.netfront.net><nl8vv5$8or$1...@news.albasani.net> <nl9g4b$uvf$1@aden
NNTP-Posting-Host: FpqBquHkK8V84X6ae1Cp/g.user.gioia.aioe.org
X-Complaints-To: ab...@aioe.org
X-Notice: Filtered by postfilter v. 0.8.2

[FromTheRafters]

on 7/3/2016, Whiskers supposed :

In the versions of Pan that I have used, you could suppress the Date
header and the server would put its own there. I never considered it a
privacy issue to do it either way.

[FromTheRafters]

Henry Jones explained on 7/3/2016 :

Message IDs can be supplanted also if the user supplied ones don't pass
muster.

[Henry Jones]

On Sun, 03 Jul 2016 15:24:40 -0700, Mike Easter wrote:

> Don't use telnet, but instead a telnet derivative that does ssl such as
> telnet-ssl or such as openssl. I linux command:
>
> openssl s_client -connect news.mixmin.net:563

Interesting. Is it *that* easy to telnet to mixmin at SSL port 563?
I was wondering how to deal with the encryption certificate.

My Linux box is dead at the moment (don't ask).
So I'm on WinXP instead.

Googling, I find:
1. OpenSSL Org: https://www.openssl.org/community/binaries.html
2. Sourceforge: http://gnuwin32.sourceforge.net/packages/openssl.htm
3. Shining Light: https://slproweb.com/products/Win32OpenSSL.html
And, not much else.

So it's slim pickings.
1. The openssl site doesn't distribute binaries.
2. The sourceforge binaries were last updated in 2008.
3. Shining Light web reads like a blogger on LSD.

Digging into the OpenSSL Wiki, I find these 3rd-party binaries
(probably NSA trojans - which - for my purpose - might be fine):
https://wiki.openssl.org/index.php/Binaries

EGADS! Dependencies galore!
- MSVC++, Builder 3/4/5, and MinGW (whatever they are!)
- Microsoft Visual Studio Runtime DLLs
- msvcrt.dll

I guess for *developers* these are all common buzzwords.
But I haven't heard of a single one of those "things".

Is there an *easy* way to "just install" openssl on Windows?

[Henry Jones]

On Sun, 03 Jul 2016 19:38:46 -0400, FromTheRafters wrote:

> Message IDs can be supplanted also if the user supplied ones don't pass
> muster.

Being a novice at telneting into newssservers, I first crafted my own
Message IDs, but I ran into too many syntax-checking failures on aioe.

But using the suggested Message-ID worked every time.

The *problem* I had was how to *reply* to a given message!
I didn't see any "reply" command in the nntp "help"!

If I posted with a "Re", the post was rejected with a clear error (there's
a *lot* of error checking going on, even with telneting into the server!).

So I had to add a *"References"* header.

But how the heck do you build them?
I couldn't figure them out.

I tried copying message IDs, but why on earth are there more than one
References Message-IDs in each reply? (How can one be replying to more
than one message at a time anyway?)

How does one properly construct the "References" line in telnet?

[Henry Jones]

On Sun, 03 Jul 2016 22:45:45 +0000, Whiskers wrote:

> The headers of that post seem to show that AIOE isn't changing the Date
> or Message-ID headers you provide (and notice the effect your offset of
> +1234 has on my software interpreting the date for the attribution line
> above).
>
> These are the headers I see for your post (the References header has
> been truncated - I do see more than that):
>
> Path:uni-berlin.de!fu-berlin.de!news.unit0.net!news.mixmin.net!
aioe.org!.POSTED!not-for-mail
> From: Henry Jones <he...@example.com>
> Newsgroups: news.software.readers Subject: Re: Pan Date header
> preference setting for time zone Date: Sun, 3 Jul 2016 01:00:00 +1234
> (COMMENT)
> Organization: Aioe.org NNTP Server Lines: 2 Message-ID:
> <abcdefg1230...@news.albasani.org>
> References:
> <nl8r1i$23fi$1...@adenine.netfront.net><nl8vv5$8or$1...@news.albasani.net>
> <nl9g4b$uvf$1@aden NNTP-Posting-Host:
> FpqBquHkK8V84X6ae1Cp/g.user.gioia.aioe.org X-Complaints-To:
> ab...@aioe.org X-Notice: Filtered by postfilter v. 0.8.2

Thank you for that look see at the headers.

I agree with you.

a) If I provide no date header while telneting into aioe, "something" puts
a date there which has the plus sign, and the 0000 and the "(UTC)" comment.

b) If I provide a date header, then aioe uses whatever "I" provided
verbatim, whether or not I add a plus or minus timezone offset and whether
or not I add a comment.

While I could easily construct a Message-ID, the "References" header drove
me nuts!

The References header has to be there, but I tried numerous times in
Windows XP DOS command-line windows to cut and paste the Message-ID of the
article I was responding to - but they all kept saying that the syntax was
wrong.

In desperation, I simply copied an arbitrary References header out of an
article in the same thread.

If anyone knows how to properly construct a References header, please let
me know because I don't understand why there is more than one, or at most
3 Reference header items when we're responding to a single message that is
in 3 groups.

How do you build that References header from scratch?

[FromTheRafters]

Henry Jones presented the following explanation :

It has to do with threading. It's just a list or chain of Message-IDs
of posts going back to the OP. I suppose you can use the Message-ID for
that too.