Re: Usenet characters

[vallor]

On Tue, 5 Sep 2023 19:15:37 -0000 (UTC), "Adam H. Kerman" <a...@chinet.com>
wrote in <ud7uop$23kbh$1...@dont-email.me>:

> vallor <val...@vallor.earth> wrote:
>>Tue, 5 Sep 2023 16:11:38 -0000 (UTC), Adam H. Kerman <a...@chinet.com>:
>>>vallor <val...@vallor.earth> wrote:
>>>>Tue, 5 Sep 2023 14:47:05 -0000 (UTC), Adam H. Kerman <a...@chinet.com>:
>
>>>>Hey, this doesn't have to be complicated. Some people like plain
>>>>ASCII.
>>>>Some people enjoy emojis, and can view them with their newsreader.
>
>>>No one not using a character set that includes emojis wants to receive
>>>emojis. Furthermore, if they quote characters they cannot display, the
>>>followup is messed up. Emojis are not plain text. It's not complicated
>>>to understand.
>
>>I do see your point, that is a problem. In some groups,
>>they aren't appropriate. As more and more newsreaders modernize, this
>>will be less of a problem, I dare say.
>
>>(Last commit for pan was August 27th.)
>
> It's not really about a newsreader modernizing. It's about whether one
> is communicating in plain text. If one requires an emoji to communicate,
> that's not plain text communication.

This is my second draft of this article, the first being lost in a tragic
pan accident.

I've set Followup-To: news.software.readers , since this discussion should
go there. (See RFC citations below.)

>
> Plain text is its own medium of communication. It uses words to
> communicate. It doesn't rely on specific fonts nor enhancements like
> bold and italic and underline. Emojis are something else entirely. So
> many are created so quickly that it eludes me how anybody uses them to
> communicate.

Executive summary: Standards for netnews user agents changed in 2009.

https://datatracker.ietf.org/doc/html/rfc5536 [...]
2.3. MIME Conformance

User agents MUST meet the definition of MIME conformance in [RFC2049]
and MUST also support [RFC2231]. This level of MIME conformance
provides support for internationalization and multimedia in message
bodies [RFC2045], [RFC2046], and [RFC2231], and support for
internationalization of header fields [RFC2047] and [RFC2231]. Note
that [Errata] currently exist for [RFC2045], [RFC2046], [RFC2047] and
[RFC2231].
[...snip...]
_ _ _ _ _ _ _
And RFC 2049 section on MIME conformance:
https://datatracker.ietf.org/doc/html/rfc2049#section-2 It's long; I won't
quote it, except for this part:

-- Recognize other character sets at least to the
extent of being able to inform the user about what character
set the message uses.

[ As an aside: if it's going to inform the user, it might as well ask if
it should run some helper program to display the RFC-compliant message
that the news agent can't handle. ]

Anyway, I wonder: what is the ratio of compliant to non-compliant
user agents on Usenet?

And we're talking about an RFC dtd 2009 -- how much longer
will the sage gentlepersons of Usenet yore be
demanding "ASCII only"...another 14 years? ;)

Followup-To: news.software.readers

--
-v

[Sn!pe]

I doubt that I shall live so long. Meanwhile, kindly accomodate me and
my ancient Newsreader of choice, which alas is no longer maintained.

In any case, I find that cartoon faces in "Simpsons Yellow" or purple
eggplants do not enhance my comprehension of Usenet articles.

There are so many emojis now (it seems that there are more every day)
that this old fart simply does not understand them. It's like kids
using ever-changing schoolyard jargon so that their parents won't know
what they're talking about. Harrumph.



> Followup-To: news.software.readers


--
^Ï^. Sn!pe <https://youtu.be/_kqytf31a8E>

My pet rock Gordon just is.

[Adam H. Kerman]

vallor <val...@vallor.earth> wrote:
>Tue, 5 Sep 2023 19:15:37 -0000 (UTC), Adam H. Kerman <a...@chinet.com>:

>>vallor <val...@vallor.earth> wrote:
>>>Tue, 5 Sep 2023 16:11:38 -0000 (UTC), Adam H. Kerman <a...@chinet.com>:
>>>>vallor <val...@vallor.earth> wrote:
>>>>>Tue, 5 Sep 2023 14:47:05 -0000 (UTC), Adam H. Kerman <a...@chinet.com>:

>I've set Followup-To: news.software.readers , since this discussion should
>go there. (See RFC citations below.)

I have no interest in having any further discussion with people who play
Followup-To games. You crossposted, dude. If you thought the discussion
was off topic, then don't crosspost yourself. Control your own behavior.
Do not attempt to control anybody else's.

You can write all the RFCs you like. It doesn't force the user to change
newsreaders. This is a well-known issue that you simply refuse to
discuss. Your call.

There's nothing to read here. Adding emojis to UTF just because there's
"unlimited" room to encode new characters was entirely irrelevant to
internationalization, even if the way internationalization was done in
RFCs was actually desireable as was done.

You don't want to discuss what we're discussing. Your call.

[vallor]

On Wed, 6 Sep 2023 00:40:15 +0100, snip...@gmail.com (Sn!pe) wrote in
<1qgm19f.11484qr1kmcdyhN%snip...@gmail.com>:

Not all UTF-8 characters are emojis -- but you're right, not all
emojis are useful. However, some are.

Reminds me a bit of Greg Bear's _Eon_, where there were
two factions: the Geshels and the Naderites. The former
were high-tech, wearing cloths that would "pict" different
images depending on what they were saying.

And then there were the Naderites, worshipers of "The Good Man",
Ralph Nader. They were kind of Luddites, kind of like I'm
seeing from Sniperooni.

>> Followup-To: news.software.readers

You know, I used this header exactly
as it is intended to be used. But Mr. Bellicose
over there would rather snip the carefully-gathered
RFC standards data that shows his user agent
is non-compliant...apparently for 14 years.

The nerve of the guy. Telling _me_ what _I_ should
put in _my_ Followup-To:, an advisory header that he
could just have ignored (as he did anyway, thus
annoying readers who are probably as tired of this
crap as I am).

--
-v

[Sn!pe]

I've read it.

Luddism is nothing to be ashamed of when the 'New Pretender' has not yet
been shown worthy to supplant the old.

> >> Followup-To: news.software.readers
>
> You know, I used this header exactly
> as it is intended to be used. But Mr. Bellicose
> over there would rather snip the carefully-gathered
> RFC standards data that shows his user agent
> is non-compliant...apparently for 14 years.
>
> The nerve of the guy. Telling _me_ what _I_ should
> put in _my_ Followup-To:, an advisory header that he
> could just have ignored (as he did anyway, thus
> annoying readers who are probably as tired of this
> crap as I am).
>

Please don't try to drag me into your spat with the poster in the
other group whom you have chosen not to name here. As it happens,
I'm actually more sympathetic to his standpoint than I am to yours.
Whatever, the two of you are unlikely to agree; News at Eleven.

[Frank Slootweg]

Sn!pe <snip...@gmail.com> wrote:
> vallor <val...@cultnix.org> wrote:
>
> > On Wed, 6 Sep 2023 00:40:15 +0100, snip...@gmail.com (Sn!pe) wrote in
> > <1qgm19f.11484qr1kmcdyhN%snip...@gmail.com>:
> > > vallor <val...@vallor.earth> wrote:

[...]

> > >> Anyway, I wonder: what is the ratio of compliant to non-compliant user
> > >> agents on Usenet?
> > >>
> > >> And we're talking about an RFC dtd 2009 -- how much longer will the
> > >> sage gentlepersons of Usenet yore be demanding "ASCII only"...another
> > >> 14 years? ;)
> > >>
> > > I doubt that I shall live so long. Meanwhile, kindly accomodate me and
> > > my ancient Newsreader of choice, which alas is no longer maintained.

+<very_large_number>

BTW, and I think you'll agree, it has little to nothing to do with
"ancient" or/and "no longer maintained", but about "Don't break
communication for no good reason, just because you can."

To use a similarly broken analogy as vallor's ones: I've yet to
encounter a 200" OLED 4K colour TV, which breaks *another* user's 15"
CRT SD/LD back-and-white TV.

> > > In any case, I find that cartoon faces in "Simpsons Yellow" or purple
> > > eggplants do not enhance my comprehension of Usenet articles.
> > >
> > > There are so many emojis now (it seems that there are more every day)
> > > that this old fart simply does not understand them. It's like kids
> > > using ever-changing schoolyard jargon so that their parents won't know
> > > what they're talking about. Harrumph.
> >
> > Not all UTF-8 characters are emojis -- but you're right, not all
> > emojis are useful. However, some are.
> >
> > Reminds me a bit of Greg Bear's _Eon_, where there were
> > two factions: the Geshels and the Naderites. The former
> > were high-tech, wearing cloths that would "pict" different
> > images depending on what they were saying.
> >
> > And then there were the Naderites, worshipers of "The Good Man",
> > Ralph Nader. They were kind of Luddites, kind of like I'm
> > seeing from Sniperooni.
>
> I've read it.
>
> Luddism is nothing to be ashamed of when the 'New Pretender' has not yet
> been shown worthy to supplant the old.

Exactly. It's just another case of the bogus "New is better!" mantra.

> > >> Followup-To: news.software.readers
> >
> > You know, I used this header exactly
> > as it is intended to be used. But Mr. Bellicose
> > over there would rather snip the carefully-gathered
> > RFC standards data that shows his user agent
> > is non-compliant...apparently for 14 years.
> >
> > The nerve of the guy. Telling _me_ what _I_ should
> > put in _my_ Followup-To:, an advisory header that he
> > could just have ignored (as he did anyway, thus
> > annoying readers who are probably as tired of this
> > crap as I am).

[To vallor:]

The subject matter was on-topic in at least two of the original groups.
Changing the *subject* - which you did - was perfectly fine and enough.

Yes, a Followup-To is advisory and you also said that you had set it,
which is good, but in general, setting a Followup-To, especially to a
new group, is bad Netiquette, because it cuts off part (or all) of the
audience, for - in most cases and in this case - no good reason.

In short: Don't use Followup-To, unless you have a very good reason,
which - except for the few well known cases, such as groups with a
defined seperate discussion group - is very, very unlikely.

> Please don't try to drag me into your spat with the poster in the
> other group whom you have chosen not to name here. As it happens,
> I'm actually more sympathetic to his standpoint than I am to yours.

And so am I.

> Whatever, the two of you are unlikely to agree; News at Eleven.

Disagreement!? On *Usenet*!? Nah, can't happen!

[Sn!pe]

Sn!pe <snip...@gmail.com> wrote:

[...]

> Meanwhile, kindly accomodate me and my ancient Newsreader of choice

[...]

Bother! 'accommodate', of course. [hangs head in embarrassment]

We now return you to your regular programming.

[Frank Slootweg]

Sn!pe <snip...@gmail.com> wrote:
> Sn!pe <snip...@gmail.com> wrote:
>
> [...]
>
> > Meanwhile, kindly accomodate me and my ancient Newsreader of choice
>
> [...]
>
> Bother! 'accommodate', of course. [hangs head in embarrassment]

ah come on mate, accomodate is fine!

[Sn!pe]

But, but, I had it drummed into my head in primary skool !
"A, Double-C, O, Double-M, -odate"
I can still hear the teacher's words reverberating in my skull.

[vallor]

On Tue, 5 Sep 2023 23:53:19 -0000 (UTC), "Adam H. Kerman" <a...@chinet.com>
wrote in <ud8f1f$25rsc$1...@dont-email.me>:

> vallor <val...@vallor.earth> wrote:
>>Tue, 5 Sep 2023 19:15:37 -0000 (UTC), Adam H. Kerman <a...@chinet.com>:
>>>vallor <val...@vallor.earth> wrote:
>>>>Tue, 5 Sep 2023 16:11:38 -0000 (UTC), Adam H. Kerman <a...@chinet.com>:
>>>>>vallor <val...@vallor.earth> wrote:
>>>>>>Tue, 5 Sep 2023 14:47:05 -0000 (UTC), Adam H. Kerman
>>>>>><a...@chinet.com>:
>
>>I've set Followup-To: news.software.readers , since this discussion
>>should go there. (See RFC citations below.)
>
> I have no interest in having any further discussion with people who play
> Followup-To games.

By continuing to crosspost, Adam tacitly indemnifies
that it belongs in the groups. So if you don't think this belongs
in news.groups -- blame Adam.

Further, he has expressed his displeasure with an
advisory header about where discussion about non-compliant
newsreaders would be on-topic. Rookie maneuver.

> You can write all the RFCs you like.

Adam is apparently confused: they aren't "my" RFCs,
they are _our_ RFCs. They are _the_ RFCs,
standards without which we wouldn't have a Usenet.

Since Adam snipped the portion about
his newsreader being obsolete, there's no
further discussion to be had with him: he
is not communicating in good faith. What
a shame.

--
-v

[candycanearter07]

On 9/12/23 09:48, vallor wrote:
> I can still hear the teacher's words reverberating in my skull.
>

Was your teacher a megaphone?

--
--
user <candycane> is generated from /dev/urandom

[vallor]

On Tue, 12 Sep 2023 10:18:29 -0500, candycanearter07 <n...@thanks.net> wrote
in <udpvg5$1jul3$1...@dont-email.me>:

> On 9/12/23 09:48, vallor wrote:
>> I can still hear the teacher's words reverberating in my skull.
>>
>>
> Was your teacher a megaphone?
>

You mis-attributed Sn!pe's comment to me... ;)

--
-v

[candycanearter07]

Sorry, must've erased the wrong part in the reply.