RESULT: soc.culture.kashmir fails 169:312
David Bostwick
RESULT
unmoderated group soc.culture.kashmir fails 169:312
There were 169 YES votes and 312 NO votes, for a total of 481 valid votes.
There was 1 abstain and 5 invalid ballots. 93 votes were invalidated
because of irregular ballots.
For group passage, YES votes must be at least 2/3 of all valid (YES and NO)
votes. There also must be at least 100 more YES votes than NO votes.
There is a five day discussion period after these results are posted.
Unless serious allegations of voting irregularities are raised, the group may
not be voted on again for six months.
Newsgroups line:
soc.culture.kashmir Kashmir social, cultural and political forum.
The voting period for this group ended at 23:59:59 UTC, 13 Mar 1997.
This vote was conducted by a neutral third party. Questions about
the proposed group should be directed to the proponent.
Proponent: Kysar Saleem <ksa...@indra.com>
Votetaker: David Bostwick <bost...@cas.chemistry.gatech.edu>
RATIONALE: soc.culture.kashmir
The proposed unmoderated newsgroup will be aimed at discussions relating
directly to a region known as Jammu & Kashmir (referred to Kashmir
hereafter). It is geographically located in the south-central asia
with the famous Himaliyan, Karakorum and Pir Panjal mountain ranges
cutting through it. In midst there is the Vale of Kashmir known to be
one of the most picturesque spots on the globe. In fact, one of the
visiting Kings once noted that "If there is a paradise on earth...
this is it... this is it...this is it". The distinct rich Kashmiri
culture shares its roots from Central Asia and the Indian Sub-Continent.
The soc.culture.kashmir newsgroup will provide a medium to express
and share ideas, make announcements and allow discussions relating
to Kashmir. The newsgroup, soc.culture.indian.jammu-kashmir,
was created to address the Indian cultural aspects of this region. Kashmir,
a region of 12 million people, however, comprises of other diverse cultures
and ethnic groups. The soc.culture.kashmir will be the forum for all ethnic,
cultural and religious groups belonging to this region.
A politically neutral newsgroup is required that can attract healthy
discussions on all political and social aspects of this region. This
newsgroup would provide such a platform. soc.culture.kashmir does not
claim affiliation to any political group and everyone will be welcome
to post here.
The newsgroup soc.culture.kashmir is not intended to replace the soc.
culture.indian.jammu-kashmir newsgroup; that will remain unaffected.
CHARTER: soc.culture.kashmir
The newsgroup soc.culture.kashmir is intended to be an unmoderated forum
for the discussions on issues relevant to Kashmir and would include, but
will not be limited to, Kashmiri:
- people
- laws, cultural, political and social issues
- economy , agriculture and commerce
- literature, music and art
- history and geography
- travel and tourist information
- customs, traditions, religions and food
- sports and recreation
- current events
- and any other topic directly related to Kashmir.
All postings must be in ordinary text format only; no special format
files (BinHex, MIME, UUEncode, etc.) are to be posted; large ASCII
graphics should be avoided as well. Cross-posting of articles is strongly
discouraged; people who wish to cross-post are strongly encouraged to
set the followups to only one group. Commercial advertisements related
to Kashmir are permitted, as long as they are short and posted no more
often than once per month; other commercial advertisements, spams, flames
and trolls are strongly discouraged.
END CHARTER.
DISTRIBUTION:
The CFV for this group was posted to the following newsgroups:
news.announce.newgroups
news.groups
soc.culture.indian
soc.culture.indian.jammu-kashmir
soc.culture.pakistan
The CFV was mailed to the following mailing list:
Kashnet kas...@indra.com
soc.culture.kashmir Final Vote Ack
Voted Yes
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10054...@CompuServe.COM Abrar Bashir Siraj
A.K...@lmu.ac.uk AZMAT A KHAN
aa...@uncc.edu Asif Ali
abdu...@mech.ubc.ca Zia Abdullah
abd...@paknet1.ptc.pk Engr. Abdul Aziz
aby...@unix.ccc.nottingham.ac.uk Mirza Meer Ali
ad...@sfn.saskatoon.sk.ca Mercy Arinze
ad...@cs.utexas.edu Adil Ajmal
aeg5...@ait.ac.th Mahfuz Rehman
akku...@itu.cc.jyu.fi Anssi Kristian Kullberg
a...@sccm.Stanford.EDU Haamid Ali
al...@scli.com Ali Ferozpurwala
al...@bnl.gov Altaf Mubaraki
amo...@pscwa.psca.com Aamir Moghal
an...@envirolink.org Anne Hillchek
aras...@paknet1.ptc.pk Atif Rasheed
au...@arts.adelaide.edu.au Ahson Umar
aus...@nmu.edu A. Syed
aut...@paknet1.ptc.pk Amjad Riaz
aw...@pop.service.ohio-state.edu Altaf A. Wani
b97...@lums.edu.pk Salahuddin Khawaja
b98...@lums.edu.pk Abdullah Akhtar
bal...@bornova.ege.edu.tr Ozgur Balsoy
ba...@pender.ee.upenn.edu Azhar Basit
bett...@nortel.ca Prakash Bettadapur
bga...@cadesm31.eng.utah.edu Balasubrahmanyan Ganesh
b...@herbison.com B.J. Herbison
bruce_...@pscwa.psca.com Bruce LeSourd
cc...@unix.ccc.nottingham.ac.uk Shafiq Ahmed
cl...@duke.usask.ca Clay C.
cro...@eno.Princeton.EDU Scott Cromar
crsp...@lucent.com Charles Speight
daniel....@infoboard.be Daniel Rybowski
d...@razor.engr.sgi.com Anil Das
david....@ukonline.co.uk David Mayall
dawn....@attws.com DAWN MORSE
djmu...@his.com David J. Murphy
donk...@polarnet.com Don Kiely
d...@ihug.co.nz David Farrar
EAX...@ean1.mecheng.nottingham.ac.uk Shahab Khanzada
eco...@EAST-01.NOVELL.LEEDS.AC.UK Mir Irshad
eng6...@leonis.nus.sg Ajeet
en...@unix.ccc.nottingham.ac.uk Noor Mohammad
fa...@paknet1.ptc.pk FAZAL SHAH
fa...@ppi.khi.erum.com.pk Fazal Qureshi
fekete...@cyberpass.net Zoli Fekete
FERNA...@rlsclare.agw.bt.co.uk anil fernandez
fkh...@shore.net Fayez Khwaja
fma...@gatwick.geoquest.slb.com Fawzia Malik
fou...@trym.Fysik.UU.SE Fouzia Saleem
FPa...@aol.com Farooq Padder
fsq...@mailbox.syr.edu Fozia S. Qazi
fua...@paknet1.ptc.pk Fuad Arshad
fz...@syr.edu Farrukh Zia
gma...@mcs.dundee.ac.uk George Mathai
gu...@doboku2.ace.nitech.ac.jp Supratic Gupta
ha...@smds57.crd.ge.com Omar Aquib Hasan
Hossam_...@smtp-gate.ptechinc.com Hossam El Gabri
hus...@ap2gh.fsd.brain.net.pk Ghulam Hussain
I.J....@Bradford.ac.uk IMRAN JAMEEL MEER
ia...@gatwick.geoquest.slb.com Aro Iyefe
idr...@gatwick.geoquest.slb.com Muhammad Idrees
ikh...@kpmg.co.nz Ikhlaq Kashkari
i...@foxbat.eng.buffalo.edu IDREAS A MIR
IM...@rlsclare.agw.bt.co.uk Syed IMAM
imtiaz...@mbox300.swipnet.se Imtiaz Ahmad
j...@rahul.net John David Galt
j...@sfbooks.com Joe Bernstein
jok...@okstate.edu Jokhio, Yousuf Khan
jpat...@cc.hut.fi Jani Patokallio
jun...@bitsmart.com Junaid Ahmad Qamar
KAM...@rlsclare.agw.bt.co.uk Kulbinder Kambo
Khaled_A...@patologi.uu.se Khaled Ahmad Ata
kh...@gatwick.geoquest.slb.com sharaf khan
kh...@triumf.ca Naimat U. Khan
kh...@pscwa.psca.com Shehryar Khan
kmck...@ochin.on.ca Kenneth McKinlay
KOT...@rlsclare.agw.bt.co.uk Imtiaz Kotwal
ksa...@concentric.net Khalid Saeed
ksa...@indra.com Kysar Saleem
lofs...@lava.net Karen Lofstrom
LO...@rlsclare.agw.bt.co.uk Ian Lowe
M.T...@Bradford.ac.uk Mohammed Tariq
Madina=Shaik%IMPAQ=Exec%IM=H...@bangate.compaq.com MADINA SHAIK
Magsoo...@UC.Edu Maqsood A. Wani
mah...@mstf.org Khalid Mahmood
man...@juno.com Mansoor Ahmad
maz...@paknet1.ptc.pk Mazhar Ul Haq Loan
md...@paknet1.ptc.pk Mohammad Ali
me...@msgate.ColumbiaSC.NCR.COM Meera Ganesan
me...@dgii.com MEER S. NAZIR
mehd...@gatwick.geoquest.slb.com Dariush Mehdyoun
me...@CapAccess.org Manzur Ejaz
mh...@raven.phs.com Mike Hatz
mi...@er4.eng.ohio-state.edu Rizwan Mustafa Mir
moe...@paknet1.ptc.pk Omar Moeen Malik
moha...@concentric.net Mohammed Abdul Qaudeer
Mo...@aol.com Moin Ansari
moinudd...@cressoft.com.pk Moin-ud-din Sabri
muf...@engr.usask.ca Muhammad Farooq
mug...@alumni.caltech.edu Asim Mughal
NAH...@rlsclare.agw.bt.co.uk Khurshid Nahami
na...@hclc.hclc-ggn.hcla.com Nand Kishore Avantsa
nas...@akhtar.isb.erum.com.pk Naseer Akhtar
nav...@centerline.com Naveed Qazi
nc...@bitsmart.com Iftikhar Ahmad
NOL...@rlsclare.agw.bt.co.uk James Nolan
OGU...@sask.usask.ca Oguocha Ike
omuz...@dhs.djusd.k12.ca.us Omer Muzaffar
on...@anise.ee.cornell.edu Oneeb Bin Saadat
pau...@astro.ocis.temple.edu Pam Austin
pa...@cancom.net Trevor Tymchuk
pen...@bilalm.brain.com.pk Bilal Muddassir
phe...@MIT.EDU Bilal A. Bhutta
pir...@pobox.com piranha
pixe...@sn.no Sveinung W. Tengelsen
pj...@leicester.ac.uk Pete Humble
pos...@grouper.fwb.gulf.net Jules Dubois
pra...@msgate.ColumbiaSC.NCR.COM Prakash Chand Inani
qa...@cellone.com Tahir Qazi
R2...@VM1.CC.UAKRON.EDU Belete Muturo
ra...@bu.edu Rajwinder Singh
Rao...@MCI.Com Darbhamulla K Rao
ra...@nsd.com Rauf Adil
rboe...@austx.tandem.com Ron Boerger
re...@cs.uiuc.edu Uday Reddy
rhai...@pscwa.psca.com Rorke Haining
ri...@bcm.tmc.edu Richard Miller
rob...@eurocontrol.fr Ollivier Robert
S.A....@dundee.ac.uk Syed A. Kazmi
sa...@mailbox.syr.edu Sami Beg
sai...@cs.purdue.edu Mohammad Bashayir Said
sha...@leland.Stanford.EDU Sayema Hameed
sil...@cse.fau.edu Syed M. Ilyas
si...@Intellistor.COM Ajaz Siraj
si...@kashmir.demon.co.uk Majid Abdul Siraj
Si...@netdata.com.br Gauhar H. Siraj
SLa...@parrett1.parrett.net Shahid Latif M.D.
SMoh...@shl.com Sohail Mohammed
Sps...@aol.com Shuja Paul
sree...@hclc.hclc-ggn.hcla.com A.Sreedhar Reddy
srin...@demon.co.uk Bashir Siraj
steve...@attws.com Steven Berry
stu...@cosc.canterbury.ac.nz stuart yeates
suga...@world.std.com Steven Garman
Suheil...@smtp-gate.ptechinc.com Suheil Laher
sza...@cse.fau.edu Syed Zaidi
T.Ba...@lmu.ac.uk Barber, Ted [CSU]
tab...@eel.ufl.edu Tariq Aslam Buchh
tanv...@microware.com Tanveer Gani
tar...@swaa.com Margaret Tarbet
ta...@seattleu.edu Tariq Rathore
thb...@mailbox.syr.edu TASSADUQ HASSAN BASU
thetr...@aol.com Bradford Brown
tjas...@kibo.us.oracle.com Tom Jaskiewicz
to...@null.net Tony Basoglu
tsi...@hayes.com Tariq Majid Siraj
txs8...@tree.egr.uh.edu Tariq Siddiqui
uz...@paknet1.ptc.pk MOBASHAR KHALID MALIK
v-j...@microsoft.com Joe Dibee
v...@hclc.hclc-ggn.hcla.com g.g.vaz
Vinita...@Eng.Sun.COM Vinita Reddy
wak...@pinn.net N. T. Wakelyn
wan...@osu.edu Gulzar Wani
wei...@minn.net David Weigel
wer...@ccwf.cc.utexas.edu Werner Unbekannt
Yogi...@notesgw.hns.com Yoginder Kak
zan...@vt.edu Zafar A. Ansari
Zub...@aol.com Tanveer Zubair
Voted No
------------------------------------------------------------------------------
00067...@mcimail.com Lax Visvanathan
10153...@CompuServe.COM Dharmasankara Iyer Chandrasekaran
a...@whq.csar.com Abhijit Dutta
abhi...@utdallas.edu Abhijeet Chachad
abul...@ra.abo.fi A. Bulsari
a...@ulysses.att.com Anil D. Chaturvedi
afa...@brokenarrow.us.itd.umich.edu Andrew Fabbro
aj...@tiaa-cref.org Ashok Jha
ak...@tiaa-cref.org Anil Kale
akaul.at.c...@csom.umn.edu akaul
ak...@utdallas.edu Alok Kaul
akb...@pb.seflin.org Alok K. Bose
an...@Cadence.COM Anand Bemra
ANG...@us.oracle.com ANILKUMAR GUPTA
Anil.K...@tc.umn.edu Anil Kaul
an...@churchill.ColumbiaSC.NCR.COM Anilkumar
Anirud...@hmc.edu Aniruddha Das
an...@agni.ernet.in Anoop Singh
anu...@duettech.com ANURAG SETH
app...@garnet.acns.fsu.edu Andrei Pastor
arc...@trillium.com Archana Nehru
ar...@Theory.Stanford.EDU Arjun Kapur
arnab_...@rsco.com Arnab K. Chanda
ar...@sun.che.sc.edu Pankaj Arora
ar...@interaccess.com Rajni Koul
Arun.K...@MCI.Com Arun Kankani
Ar...@InterWorld.com Arun Vadlamani
aru...@utdallas.edu Arun
ASAN...@us.oracle.com Kavita Char
as...@casecorp.com Arvind M. Shah
as...@hotmail.com ASHISH BHARDWAJ
Ashish...@Sciatl.COM Ashish Panke
ash...@tifrc3.tifr.res.in Ashish Karnik
ash...@giasbm01.vsnl.net.in Ashok Chowgule
asi...@campus.mci.net Ashok Singh
atrmail2.attmail.com!cobra-fddi!asircar Apurba Krishna Sircar
at...@yamuna.asd.sgi.com Atul Narkhede
atul_b...@s3.com Atul Bhalodia
ba...@sun.che.sc.edu BALA S HARAN
bar...@giasbm01.vsnl.net.in DINESH BAREJA
bd...@ln.nimh.nih.gov Bobby Das
BGa...@aol.com Balasubramani Ganesh
bh...@micro.ti.com Bhasi Kaithamana
BN33...@ntuvax.ntu.ac.sg Nitin N Pai
bo...@datasync.com Martin H. Booda
BP88...@ntuvax.ntu.ac.sg MANISH AGARWAL
bph...@lynx.dac.neu.edu Benjamin Philip
BV_Mura...@3mail.3com.com Bagalur V. Muralidhara
cbs...@phoenix.Princeton.EDU Chris Stone
CHANDER...@Tandem.COM Harish Chander
cha...@videonics.com Chandra Sivasubramaniam
chan...@UMDNJ.EDU run Chandrakantan
che...@Jetson.UH.EDU Deepak Gupta
chit...@sal.cs.utah.edu Ajaya Chitturi
cjs...@jove.acs.unt.edu Chirayu Shah
ckri...@licor.com Chandra Krishnan
cm.ga...@m.cc.utah.edu Mahesh Ganorkar
cpp...@garnet.acns.fsu.edu Cedomir Petrovic
cs...@informix.com siva nandan
cv...@hclind.hclc-ggn.hcla.com Vinay Kumar Singh
d...@pegasus.Ebay.Sun.COM Deepak Alur
DACDXX21...@sswemx00.dx.deere.com Prakash Ramanathan
DACDXX21...@sswemx00.dx.deere.com Balakrishnan Sreedharan
DACDXX21...@sswemx00.dx.deere.com Ganapathy s. Dharmasankar
dbal...@cs.com Don Ballard
dchat...@KUHUB.CC.UKANS.EDU DEB CHATTERJEE
d...@eclipse.keithley.com Keshav Dev
deva...@aur.alcatel.com Raj Devasigamani
df...@sunset.backbone.olemiss.edu Rajiv Varma
dh...@giasdl01.vsnl.net.in K. K. Dhar
dhe...@agni.ernet.in N.Pradheepa
dhe...@seas.ucla.edu Dheeraj K. Singhal
d...@fuwutai.wh.lucent.com Dipesh H. Shah
Dhs...@aol.com Dhiren Shah
dil...@ccwf.cc.utexas.edu Dileep Karanth
Dinesh_...@UB.com DINESH MAKHIJA
dko...@stevens-tech.edu Dheeraj Koneru
dn...@columbia.edu Dilip Deodhar
d...@neu.edu Durga P. Choudhury
dr...@ix.netcom.com Sowjanya Subramanian
dr...@eelab.usyd.edu.au Dhruba Roy
dx...@psu.edu Dinesh Agrawal
eut...@siam.muc.de Ekkehard Uthke
gan...@hotmail.com S.Chandramouli
ghil...@archimedes.me.uiuc.edu Vinay Ghildyal
ghu...@facility.cs.utah.edu Rajnish Ghughal
g...@agni.ernet.in Dr. G. K. Tripathy
gov...@pt.Cyanamid.COM ATUL GOVIL
gov...@sky.net Govind Deshpande
gpr9...@uconnvm.uconn.edu G.P. Ryan
g...@cypress.com Gaurang R. Desai
Ha...@aol.com HAAW
har...@infogain.com Harish P. Hiriyannaiah har...@infogain.com
hbh...@interse.com Harvinder Bhela
hil...@xdiv.lanl.gov Hillol Kargupta
hindu...@aol.com Indrasen Sharma
hist...@aol.com Purushottam Nagesh Oak
Homiar_ka...@ccmail.bms.com Homiar Kalwachwala
hroy...@NMSU.Edu Hiranya Roychowdhury
imudi...@otb.com Indu Mudigonda
ind...@iastate.edu Indira Shukla
Info...@aol.com Nagaraj Patil
jaga...@us.ibm.com Jagadeesh Chilakapati
j...@lsil.com Jai Rawat
j...@netcom.com Jai Bannur
janw...@bscc.bls.com Kedar Janwadker
Jay_Sharma/CDR/BSM/MCI.M...@notes.MCI.Com Jay Sharma
jen...@interlog.com Allan Jenoff
je...@intercable.net Jesus Eugenio Sanchez
jgu...@tiaa-cref.org Jitendra Gupte
jitin...@lucent.com Jitin Parikh
jko...@es.com Jayant Kolhe
jlow...@pwa.acusd.edu John Lowther
jo...@opencon.com JOsna Kachroo
k.m...@bristol.ac.uk K. Mohana Krishnaiah
kar...@leland.Stanford.EDU Kartik Sridharan
KAT...@cahill.com Narain Kataria
kha...@informix.com Khanderao Kand
ki...@netcom.com Kim DeVaughn
k...@india.hp.com K.M.RajaGopal
kpr...@lsil.com Prasad Kuppa
kri...@pacific.Eng.Sun.COM Krishna Kondaka
KRIS...@engr.engr.sc.edu Sundaram Krishnamoorthy
Krishnamurth...@Ebay.Sun.COM Krishnamurthy Woonnimani
kris...@EECS.Berkeley.EDU Sriram C. Krishnan
ksha...@duettech.com K.Shankar
ku...@cimar.me.ufl.edu Ramakrishna Kuppa
Lal.B...@Ebay.Sun.COM Lal B Bandaru
l...@zk3.dec.com Larry Smith
lkul...@VNET.IBM.COM Lalit V. Kulkarni
lok...@wipro.com Lokesh Nanjappa
m4s...@srv.PacBell.COM Manju Pandit
MADHAV...@bge.com Enaganti Madhava Naidu
mah...@vuse.vanderbilt.edu SANKARAN MAHADEVAN
mah...@ME.Concordia.CA Mahesh Balike
maj...@pitt.edu Subba Rao V. Majety
man...@everest.radiology.uiowa.edu Mandar A. Pattekar
manis...@hotmail.com Manish Kaul
ma...@cdac.ernet.in MANOJ M. PANICKER
Mano...@MCI.Com Manoj V. Das
mapa...@aol.com M. Pandya
mar...@pacbell.net Aaron Marquez
mat...@climate-f.gsfc.nasa.gov Shana Mattoo
mdo...@netcom.com Manish Doshi
MDSA...@giasmd01.vsnl.net.in Dr. S.Kalyanaraman
me...@freenet.msp.mn.us K.P.S.Menon
mgan...@UNRAVEL.com Mahes Ram Ganesan
mi...@ukraine.corp.mot.com Pallab Midya
mi...@cactus.org Milan Patel
mi...@churchill.ColumbiaSC.NCR.COM Milan J. Patel
milind-d...@uiowa.edu Milind Deshpande
m...@ulysses.att.com M. Subramanaim
MKVu...@os.varian.com Manoj Kumar Vuriti
mp...@lucent.com Manjula P. Rao
msa...@informix.com Mahabala Sastry
ms...@bfm.com Manish I Shah
msh...@casecorp.com MANOJ SHARMA
mur...@sun.che.sc.edu Murali Ramasubramanian
mur...@mho.EECS.Berkeley.EDU Praveen Murthy
muth...@facstaff.wisc.edu K. Muthukumarappan
Muthukumar_Venkatachalam/CDR/BSM/MCI.M...@notes.MCI.Com Muthukumar Venkat
mvsh...@gsbpop.uchicago.edu Vishal Sharma
mxv...@psu.edu Manohar Vittal
n.cha...@postoffice.worldnet.att.net Naresh C Chafekar
na...@mips.pfalz.de Christian Weisgerber
nage...@celis.cs.umass.edu Maram V NagendraPrasad
nar...@manisha.india.hp.com N Arvindkumar
na...@San-Jose.ate.slb.com Ganesh Nayak
niha...@ix.netcom.com Ramana Murthy
nil...@humphrey.com Nilesh Thakker
NR...@WPO.HCC.COM Nitin N. Raut
n...@mmsmtp2.ColumbiaSC.NCR.COM Nabhodipta Sil Upadhyay
nti...@rs3.esm.vt.edu Nachiketa Tiwari
nva...@TTIADMIN.TAMU.EDU Nitin Vaidya
pade...@mtu.edu Prasanna A. Deshpande
padhye....@traf.com P.P.PADHYE
pali...@ee.pdx.edu Karthikeyan Palanisamy
Pandey...@bah.com Pandey Arvind
pa...@informix.com PARAG KULKARNI
pa...@byu.edu Robert Craig Harman
pa...@lcs.mit.edu Patrick J. LoPresti
pa...@ece.ucsd.edu SUSANT KUMAR PATRA
pid...@wombat.eng.fsu.edu Nagalakshmi Piduri
pill...@vikingship.aud.alcatel.com RAMESH R PILLUTLA
piy...@agni.ernet.in PIYUSH TIWARI
p...@yokohama.quote.com P.J. Gupta
pjo...@informix.com Parag Joshi
pkan...@lucent.com Paresh C. Kanabar
pkj...@iitk.ernet.in Pankaj Jain
pra...@madurai.consilium.com Pradeep Kulkarni
Prakash...@dgii.com Prakash Kamath
pra...@aol.com Pran Lal
pra...@pcsbom.patni.com Prasad Bhat
Purush....@mci.com Purushotham Marella
RAD...@aol.com Jayshree Radia
RAGA...@email.usps.gov Ram Agarwal
raghu....@omitron.com Tumkur K Raghuram
ra...@exemplar.com Raghu Rao
ra...@ridgefield.sdr.slb.com Raghu Ramamoorthy
ra...@cs.umn.edu SOUMYENDU RAHA
ra...@ibmoto.com Rajesh Raina
Raj.Bh...@UC.Edu Raj Bhatnagar
raj...@rahul.net S. Rajeev
Raju.M...@UCHSC.edu RAJU MAMILETI
ra...@umevoice.com N.Raju
RAK...@vma.smsu.edu Rajeev Kaula
ram.mat...@med.osd.mil Ram Mattapalli
ram...@ecf.toronto.edu gopal g
ra...@cs.fsu.edu Rajagopal Ramchandran
ram...@ERC.MsState.EDU Ramesh Pankajakshan
ram...@p2k.cbis.com Ramesh Nagabushnam
ram...@rs6000.cmp.ilstu.edu Ramesh Chaudhari
ram...@cisco.com Ramesh Srinivasan
ra...@agni.ernet.in RAJENDRA RANE
r...@tdd.sj.nec.com Padmanabha Rao
ra...@swdc.stratus.com r. Krishnan
raz...@ntd.comsat.com Rajender Razdan
rbhat...@gte.com Rajiv Bhatnagar
re...@orion.neca.com Madhu Reddy
ri...@Cadence.COM Rajesh Iyer
rn...@micro.ti.com R. NAG
rnan...@casecorp.com Ramakrishna R. Nandyala
rpot...@ppi.stevens-tech.edu Ramesh Potluri
rud...@cs.indiana.edu Rutvik Desai
r...@po.cwru.edu Ravi Bellamkonda
r...@aloft.micro.lucent.com Ranjan Wadhwa
S.Rav...@blr.sni.de S.RAVIKIRAN
S4C...@msg.PacBell.COM Sadashiv C khole
s...@cs.utah.edu Sai Rama Krishna Susarla
S...@ddt.biochem.umn.edu Sampath Ramachandran
sam...@agni.ernet.in SAMEER REGE
Sandeep.Chan...@nt.com Sandeep Chandel
SANDEEP....@ey.com Sandeep Kulkarni
sand...@asic.sc.ti.com SANDEEP MAHESHWARY
Sandee...@ccmail.inet.com SANDEEP KAUL
san...@EE.Princeton.EDU Sanjeev Shukla
sara...@ix.netcom.com Gopal Saraswat
sat...@thunder01.corp.mot.com Satish Kulkarni
Sat...@pharmacy-po.pharmacy.uiowa.edu Satish Shirolkar
sat...@truth.india.hp.com NVL Satyanarayana
sbar...@ingr.com Sreedhar Barakam
sbil...@ringer.cs.utsa.edu S. Billakanti
sb...@iucaa.ernet.in Sukanta Bose
schi...@e-mail.com Shekhar Chitnis
schn...@voicenet.com Matt Schnierle
sda...@c-cube.com SANJOY DATTA
sen...@worldnet.att.net@postoffice.worldnet.att.net Praveen K. Nukala
SF91...@ntuvax.ntu.ac.sg S Jagadish
shar...@juno.com Sharad Amin
sha...@csd.uwm.edu Sudarshan Sharma
sha...@wrc.xerox.com Gaurav Sharma
she...@informix.com Srinath Shenoy
shetty...@euroclear.com Umesha N. Shetty
shiv...@husc.harvard.edu Giridhar Shivaram
shiv...@agcs.com P. S. Shivaram
shsk...@reading.ac.uk C. Kambhampati
Sh...@Quicklogic.com Shyam Gokalgandhi
siv...@jhunix.hcf.jhu.edu Sivakumar Krishnamoorthy
sj...@mines.utah.edu Raj Jain
sja...@nortel.ca Susheel Jalali
sk...@casecorp.com Satish Kale
smb...@lucent.com Suyog M. Bhobe
s...@ix.netcom.com Sudhee Subrahmanya
soc...@Menudo.UH.EDU Mahesh Parekh
sou...@VNET.IBM.COM Soumen Saha.
soum...@alpha.eng.fsu.edu Soumitri Kolavennu
spap...@pcocd2.intel.com Srinivasu Pappula
spa...@cisco.com Shyam Patnam
spi...@informix.com Santosh Pillai
s...@santafe.edu S. Ray
Sreedhara_Kabam/CDR/BSM/MCI.M...@notes.MCI.Com Sreedhara KABAM
Sreekant...@Corp.Sun.COM Sreekanta N Shastry
sre...@isi.com Sreeni Tellakula
Sridhar_Royaprollu/CDR/BSM/MCI.M...@notes.MCI.Com Sridhar Royaprollu
srud...@tiaa-cref.org Shekhar Rudrapatna
ss...@indiana.edu Sridhar Samu
ssi...@alpo.casc.com Sanjay Singh
stai...@bga.com Dwight Brown
sta...@stamper.com Chris Stamper
Subbarao....@Eng.Sun.COM Subbarao Jagannatha
su...@anise.ee.cornell.edu P. Subrahmanya
sud...@ME.Concordia.CA sudheer reddy JARUGU
sud...@gsidanet.danet.com Ramesh Sudini.
Suresh....@wellsfargo.com Deopura, Suresh
su...@sv.sc.philips.com Surin Chowdhry
ta...@draziw.com Ryan
tkb...@aero.iitm.ernet.in TARIT K. BOSE
tla...@amug.org Todd C. Lawson
tul...@cs.unc.edu Narendra Tulpule
Umesh....@nd.edu UMESH GARG
uunet.uu.net!msla1!udeo Uday Deo
vb...@bostech.com Vinod V. Bhat
ven...@nortel.ca Venkatesh Deverayasamudram
Venkat...@MCI.Com Venkata Rami Reddy Pindi
Venkateswar...@Eng.Sun.COM Venkateswara Maddileti
ven...@fstpitch.corp.sgi.com Venkatesh Jagadeeshwara
venk...@cs.uh.edu Venkatesh Muthusubramanian
vijay....@cbis.com Vijay Vonguru
VIJAY...@gatormail.cvrti.utah.edu Vijay Modur
vin...@iti.gov.sg Vinayak Ghaisas
vin...@agni.ernet.in VINITA HATTANGADI
Viresh....@mri.com Viresh Rustagi
viv...@india.hp.com Vivek Chopra
vksh...@acs.ucalgary.ca Vijay Kumar Shrivastava
vpa...@casecorp.com Vasant M Pandav
vpr...@cisco.com Vivek R. Prabhu
vra...@informix.com vijay ranade
vs...@cornell.edu Vasanth S Kothnur
vs...@VNET.IBM.COM V.Sardesai
v...@racooty.ernet.in V.Venkatasubramani
z95...@corn.cso.niu.edu Rajesh Char
z...@cjnetworks.com Ned Fleming
Abstained
------------------------------------------------------------------------------
ks...@Glue.umd.edu KIDAMBI S. KANNAN
Votes in error
------------------------------------------------------------------------------
Lab...@shrike.depaul.edy LabUser
! No vote statement in message
s...@t10.lanl.gov srb
! No ballot
stb6...@ait.ac.th Shakil Ahmad Romshoo
! No vote statement in message
vs...@bu.edu
! No ballot
india...@aol.com India Watch
! Invalid address
Votes invalidated due to improper ballots
----------------------------------------------------------------------------
ach...@tifrc3.tifr.res.in GOPAL.V.ACHANTA
ach...@pica.army.mil Amod Choudhary
am...@engr.colostate.edu Amit Sharma
ana...@smtplink.acer.com Anand Bhairat
anupam...@polaris.dhs.state.tx.us Anupam Govil
asr...@promega.com Ashish Srimal
Ba...@aol.com Ranjit Singh
bha...@lynx.dac.neu.edu Biswanath Halder
cha...@ctrvax.Vanderbilt.Edu Patrali Chatterjee
chy...@pcsbom.patni.com Chandrashekhar Yadav
c...@sitar.jazz.att.com Charan Singh
cybe...@worldnet.att.net Mohan Marette
dee...@duettech.com C.V.DEEPAK
dmo...@cwc.ucsd.edu D MODHA
du...@cs.columbia.edu Ashutosh Dutta
eisr...@sgies15.sdrc.com Sriram Chavali
fra...@gslink.com Frank Weddle
fzv...@mlmtgfa0.mpg.natp.gmeds.com rajan chak
ga...@stat.uga.edu Gauri Sankar Datta
gbv...@soton.ac.uk Gattotkutch Varsani
GNAG...@STPHCC1.HCC.COM Gowri S. Nagarajan
hah...@cs.usask.ca Haikel Hichri
ha...@gharib.demon.co.uk Gharib Hanif
hn...@pop3.utoledo.edu Haney M. Nimr
hs...@usr.com Himanshu Sahu
ja...@paknet1.ptc.pk Muhammad Javed IQBAL
jo...@chodai.co.jp Joy Bhattacharya
jrp...@rockdal.aud.alcatel.com Jitesh Patel
kal...@micro.ti.com Kalidas C.Mukherjee
kes...@isu.iisc.ernet.in G.KESHAVA DATTA
kha...@paknet1.ptc.pk Khalid Qureshi
kris...@umbc.edu Rajesh Krishnamurthy
kris...@sun.che.sc.edu Arun Krishnan
ksa...@paknet1.ptc.pk Faisal Khalid
lhr0...@paknet1.ptc.pk Naveed Ijaz
lper...@hawaii.edu leon pereira
ma...@agni.ernet.in MANOJ KUMAR PANDA
manz...@paknet1.ptc.pk Malik Aumir Masood
mba...@paknet1.ptc.pk MUHAMMAD ARSHAD
me...@micro.lucent.com RACHOOR HANUMAN
Me...@mgmt.purdue.edu Shail Mehta
min...@paknet1.ptc.pk Shazia Mushtaq
m...@columbia.edu Mohib.N.Durrani
Mohammad...@patologi.uu.se MOHAMMAD FAROOQUE
mr...@Physics.usyd.edu.au Maitreyee Roy
msa...@videonics.com Mukesh Sayani
msr...@gsidanet.danet.com John Doe
Nigam_Shah/UCS/ATT_at_...@imagate1.ucs.att.com Nigam Shah
npa...@uswest.com Narendra Babu Parandhaman
p...@sequent.com RAMACHANDRA N. PAI
pan...@cat.cat.ernet.in Prasad Anant NAIK
pan...@mtu.edu Ravi Pandey
p...@ulysses.att.com P Bansal
p...@agni.ernet.in J.P. Painuly
psa...@iastate.edu PRADIPTA SARKAR
rac...@tp.ac.sg
ra...@medinfo.rochester.edu S.Thyagarajan
ra...@shunji.iis.u-tokyo.ac.jp K S Rajan
raj...@orlando.riken.go.jp RAJESH SUNDARESAN
rakesh...@ccgate.ueci.com Rakesh Gupta
ram...@tp.ac.sg RAMESH HARIHARAN
raru...@stern.nyu.edu Ravi Arunkundram
rash...@pcsbom.patni.com Ravindra Shinde
ra...@sal.cs.utah.edu Ratan Nalumasu
Ravi...@aol.com Ravi Krishnamurthy Aron
rj...@agni.ernet.in Raghbendra Jha
ro...@tifrc3.tifr.res.in ROOP MALLIK
Sai.Chi...@Ebay.Sun.COM Sai Chimakurty
sak...@pcsbom.patni.com Sanjay Kale
san...@lazarus.ece.drexel.edu SANKAR GHOSH
sen...@dnrc.bell-labs.com Senthil Kumar
sgs...@u.washington.edu Srinivasan Srivilliputhur
shm...@paknet1.ptc.pk Anjum Raheel
sh...@astro.ocis.temple.edu Shoba Thamma
sh...@relativity.tifr.res.in Shrirrang S. Deshingkar
skal...@uncc.edu Subramanian Kalyanasundaram
srik...@charlie.ece.sc.edu ANAND SRIKUMAR
srir...@purdue.edu Sriramesh Krishnamurthy
ssa...@usr.com Sudha Saxena
sthan...@qrmgroup.com SUKUMAR
sud...@utdallas.edu SUDHIR WOKHLU
SUJIT.K....@worldnet.att.net Sujit K. Sengupta
sun...@cis.ohio-state.edu N. S. Sundar
Suresh_Malepati_at_~BMSN...@ccmail.bms.com Suresh Malepati
tan...@genco.com Pankaj Tandon
tman...@lehman.com Tarun Mandania
v...@acpub.duke.edu Vinayak Bhat
v...@scri.fsu.edu Chetan Vig
vjay...@foxboro.com V.JAYARAMAN
v...@tiaa-cref.org Pradeep V.M.
vpa...@speech1.cs.cmu.edu Parikh Vipul
wam...@paknet1.ptc.pk Wameez Mohyuddin Kadri
z95...@oats.farm.niu.edu Abhiram Bapat
ba...@aol.com
Almost all YES votes are muslim
and ALL of the NO votes are hindus.
South Indians hindus seem to be dominating the NOs.
What the f*** is wrong with the southies. If the kashmiri's
want their own newsgroups let them have it.
This is hindu hegemony on the net.
s.c.p.m has been voted down the same way by the hindus.
Jeremy Billones
In article <19970321005...@ladder01.news.aol.com>,
s.c.p.m got voted down, among other reasons, because the proponents
could barely get 100 Usenet posters to vote YES, let alone 100 more YES
than NO.
Jeremy Billones http://www.primenet.com/~billones/
3-0, 3.67, .814 * ISTJ * Go Caps! * USSF Certifiable * Kaientai DX 4 Life
"You bust through the door and create a diversion. They all turn and aim at
you. You try to sweet talk them out of blowing your brains out, while I
sneak around back, bust in, and *really* surprise 'em."
Karen Lofstrom
I am extremely disturbed by this result. This sck proposal was a
good, neutral and non-political proposal; it had none of the drawbacks
of a previous proposal, for a moderated group. The NO votes were
apparently motivated by nothing other than petty nationalism. The
voters should be ashamed of themselves.
There has been some discussion of an appeals process. I wish we had
an appeals court right now, as this would be a good test case. The
interest in the group is there. No other ethnic group/nationality
should be able to prevent Kashmiris (of ALL ethnicities) from having
their own forum.
--
Karen Lofstrom lofs...@lava.net
----------------------------------------------------------------------
Neither a burrower nor a lentil be. -- Wm. Snakespeare
clind
Karen Lofstrom wrote:
>
> I am extremely disturbed by this result. This sck proposal was a
Well, this is just another example of the drawbacks of the so called
"democratic" voting procedure on newsgroups. Please see my criticism
posted earlier today.
Personally, I think the whole "CFV" and "RFD" procedures is maybe well
intended, but so full of holes, that it can do more harm than good.
It is definitely not something I will use as an democratic example
for my kids.
Christer Lindstrom
(interested in politics? - yes, I'm serious. And I like it!)
Bruce Baugh
>I am extremely disturbed by this result. This sck proposal was a
>good, neutral and non-political proposal; it had none of the drawbacks
I think I voted against in the belief that an ummoderated group would be
doomed to turn into another soc.culture cesspool, given the level of
heat on all sides. A neutrally moderated (or even robomoderated) group
is, I think, a necessity here.
--
Bruce Baugh <*> http://www.kenosis.com
Moderator, comp.os.ms-windows.win95.moderated
List manager, Christlib, Christian/libertarian mailing list
Host, new sf by S.M. Stirling and George Alec Effing er
Jani Patokallio
clind (cl...@carasoft.se) wrote:
: Well, this is just another example of the drawbacks of the so called
: "democratic" voting procedure on newsgroups. Please see my criticism
: posted earlier today.
Repeat after me: Usenet is NOT a democracy.
Understanding this principle is necessary to understanding how Usenet
operates. You, the user, have absolutely no rights regarding Usenet as
a whole, and you cannot complain about anything being "undemocratic",
"violating your civil rights", "un-Constitutional", etc.
Why? Simple. Usenet, and the whole Internet with it, is not a single
entity. When you bought or otherwise acquired your access to the
Internet, you really only bought access to one system on it, your
Internet service provider. You have made a contract with them and they
must fulfill the terms of that contract if you do likewise. But that's
it. There are umpteen million other machines on the 'Net, and you have
no power over any of them. The owners of all those machines may do
anything they like with them and if you don't like that, that's simply
too bad. After all, should you happen to have your own machine on the
'Net, you can do likewise. To sum up, Internet is a vast network of
loosely cooperating little dictatorships, with each machine owner
being the absolute ruler of his domain.
How does this apply to Usenet? Usenet happens to have a structure, the
group voting process, which at first glance appears to be a democratic
system. The people vote on issues and groups are created and destroyed
according to the whim of the majority, or so it would seem. But in
reality, this system exists only to give the real rulers, the system
administrators, an easy method of picking what groups they want and
what groups they don't want. Anybody can issue a group-creation
command, if they have the sufficient technical knowledge to do so, but
only groups that go through 'official' channels (in other words, the
RFD/CFV-process) will be widely acknowledged.
More at http://www.hut.fi/~jpatokal/uvv/intro.html.
Cheers,
--
Jani Patokallio | Elämä ei ole henkeä eikä ainetta, vaan liikettä.
jpat...@alpha.hut.fi | Entropy: http://www.tky.hut.fi/~entropy/
Ajaz Siraj
>In article <5h3ttl$4...@mochi.lava.net>, lofs...@lava.net (Karen Lofstrom) wrote:
>>I am extremely disturbed by this result. This sck proposal was a
>>good, neutral and non-political proposal; it had none of the drawbacks
>I think I voted against in the belief that an ummoderated group would be
>doomed to turn into another soc.culture cesspool, given the level of
>heat on all sides. A neutrally moderated (or even robomoderated) group
>is, I think, a necessity here.
We tried that six months ago. Even larger number of people were against
that...the unmoderated s.c.kashmir was a compromise that we think would
have served the purpose of providing a neutral home to discussions involving
Kashmir. If the newsgroup would have turned the way you have described
it then maybe in few months some of its regular contributers might have
taken it upon themselves to re-organize this forum as a moderated one.
It would be much easier to come up with the chioce of neutral moderators from
an existing forum than to put together a team of moderators from all
over the place.
Thanks to you we do not have a Kashmir newsgroup on the Usenet.
~ajaz
Karen Lofstrom
Bruce Baugh (br...@kenosis.com) wrote:
: I think I voted against in the belief that an ummoderated group would be
: doomed to turn into another soc.culture cesspool, given the level of
: heat on all sides. A neutrally moderated (or even robomoderated) group
: is, I think, a necessity here.
Ordinarily I'd be of your opinion -- however, this group was SO
controversial as a moderated group that I thought there was some sense
in starting it out as unmoderated, then moderating it later as
necessary. At least once it had been started it would have a chance
to collect adherents.
I suspect that there were very few "NO" votes for your reasons,
however. The names on the "NO" list were predominantly Hindu. I
didn't read whole list in detail, just glanced over it, but my
impression is that most of those people were not news.groupies. Nor
was there much debate about the moderated status of this group during
the RFD period. I think you'd have to agree that most of the "NO"
votes were probably for petty nationalistic reasons.
I do hope that we can try this one again in six months, perhaps with a
robo-mod charter. Ideally, there would be appeals court in place in
case nationalists vote it down again.
--
Karen Lofstrom SCIENTOLOGIST BAIT lofs...@lava.net
----------------------------------------------------------------------
OT7-48 1. Find some plants, trees, etc., and communicate to them
individually until you know they received your communication.
Vivek R. Prabhu
In article <5h3ttl$4...@mochi.lava.net>,
Karen Lofstrom <lofs...@lava.net> wrote:
Hi Karen,
While you may feel this way, there are many who feel that the proposal for
soc.culture.kashmir itself was based on petty regionalism, and was backed
by dubious elements.
This is something we cannot avoid here, there will always be extraneous
factors involved in newsgroup creation and conduct.
Regards,
Vivek.
>I am extremely disturbed by this result. This sck proposal was a
>good, neutral and non-political proposal; it had none of the drawbacks
>of a previous proposal, for a moderated group. The NO votes were
>apparently motivated by nothing other than petty nationalism. The
>voters should be ashamed of themselves.
>
>There has been some discussion of an appeals process. I wish we had
>an appeals court right now, as this would be a good test case. The
>interest in the group is there. No other ethnic group/nationality
>should be able to prevent Kashmiris (of ALL ethnicities) from having
>their own forum.
>
>--
>Karen Lofstrom lofs...@lava.net
>----------------------------------------------------------------------
>Neither a burrower nor a lentil be. -- Wm. Snakespeare
>
--
vi...@abyss.ecst.csuchico.edu (Vivek R. Prabhu)-Graduate Research Assistant,
Systems Engineering Laboratory-School Of Engg., Computer Science & Technology,
Dept. Of Computer Science-California State University, Chico, California.
http://www.ecst.csuchico.edu/~vivek
Karen Lofstrom
Vivek R. Prabhu (vi...@ecst.csuchico.edu) wrote:
: While you may feel this way, there are many who feel that the proposal for
: soc.culture.kashmir itself was based on petty regionalism, and was backed
: by dubious elements.
Why is it petty regionalism to have a Kashmiri group, but OK to have a
Bengali group? Fair is fair. If you're going to have regional
groups, then any region should be allowed to have its own group, with
a name that is not controversial or demeaning.
Backed by dubious elements? Whatever you may think of the proponents,
the charter was resolutely apolitical, and lacking moderation, the
proponents would have no control over the group once created.
: This is something we cannot avoid here, there will always be extraneous
: factors involved in newsgroup creation and conduct.
"There will always be corruption" says the corrupt official as he
pockets the bribe. "Business is dog-eat-dog" says the corrupt
executive as he profits by industrial espionage. "Everybody does it"
says the petty thief. "There will always be extraneous factors" says
Vivek.
The fundamental value of the net is FREE SPEECH. Denying people a
forum because you don't like them is wrong, simply wrong.
If their position is false, letting them speak is the best thing you
can do. They will reveal themselves; they cannot avoid criticism or
even ridicule. The fact that you want to suppress them suggests that
you are afraid there is some truth to what they are saying.
BTW, posting this and emailing it to me, without letting me know that
you were doing both, is not nice. I replied to your email and THEN I
found your post. I don't like having to reply twice.
--
Karen Lofstrom lofs...@lava.net
----------------------------------------------------------------------
"They're on Demerol, they've got a '67 Camaro, and some fresh white
mice to play with. Whee doggers." -- Global Domination Update #15
Johan Anglemark
In article <5h9t0p$1...@charnel.ecst.csuchico.edu>, vi...@ecst.csuchico.edu
(Vivek R. Prabhu) wrote:
>Hi Karen,
>
>While you may feel this way, there are many who feel that the proposal for
>soc.culture.kashmir itself was based on petty regionalism, and was backed
>by dubious elements.
>
>This is something we cannot avoid here, there will always be extraneous
>factors involved in newsgroup creation and conduct.
>
>Regards,
>Vivek.
Sigh. What you don't seem to understand is that it *is* OK for people to
form a newsgroup for petty nationalistic reasons, if they feel like it.
The only valid reason for voting YES is that you're interested in the
group's charter and you would be reading the group.
The valid reasons for voting NO are among others that the group duplicates
another group's charter, that the name is ill chosen etc. Believing that
the group's readers will have distasteful political views are *not* a
valid reason for voting NO.
Regards,
Johan
----------------------------------------------------------------
Johan Anglemark (Sweden) | johan.a...@bahnhof.se
angle...@euro.apple.com | http://www.bahnhof.se/~anglemar/
----------------------------------------------------------------
Uday Reddy
ba...@aol.com wrote:
>
> Almost all YES votes are muslim
> and ALL of the NO votes are hindus.
> South Indians hindus seem to be dominating the NOs.
> What the f*** is wrong with the southies. If the kashmiri's
> want their own newsgroups let them have it.
> This is hindu hegemony on the net.
I think there is a logical explanation for this predominance of South
Indian Hindu votes.
Here is a Dejanews search result for Subject: soc.culture.kashmir.
1. 97/02/21 025 CFV: soc.culture.kas#1/2 soc.culture.indian.
nda...@aol.com (NDa
2. 97/02/21 025 CFV: soc.culture.kas#2/2 soc.culture.indian.
nda...@aol.com (NDa
...
20. 97/02/21 025 CFV: soc.culture.kas#2/2 alt.culture.karnata
nda...@aol.com (NDa
There were 10 messages posted on 97/2/21 to the following newsgroups:
soc.culture.indian.kerala
soc.culture.indian.delhi
soc.culture.indian.marathi
alt.culture.kerala
soc.culture.indian.gujarati
soc.culture.indian.karnataka
alt.culture.tamil
soc.culture.indian.telugu
alt.culture.karnataka
Given that seven out of these ten newsgroups are South Indian,
presumably more South Indians got to see it than others. The message
basically reproduced the CFV. Here are the first few lines:
-------------
Subject: CFV: soc.culture.kashmir
From: nda...@aol.com (NDatta)
Date: 1997/02/21
Message-Id: <19970221024...@ladder02.news.aol.com>
Newsgroups: soc.culture.indian.kerala
[More Headers]
Subject: CFV: soc.culture.kashmir
From: bost...@cas.chemistry.gatech.edu (David Bostwick)
Date: Thu, 20 Feb 1997 22:47:53 GMT
Message-ID: <8564788...@isc.org>
FIRST CALL FOR VOTES (of 2)
unmoderated group soc.culture.kashmir
Newsgroups line:
soc.culture.kashmir Kashmir social, cultural and political forum.
Votes must be received by 23:59:59 UTC, 13 Mar 1997.
--------
I don't know what was Mr. Datta's intent in reposting the CFV to these
various newsgroups. But, under the circumstances it only had an
undesirable effect, viz., uninterested parties were invited to vote.
And, they voted without having seen the RFD or the RFD discussion. They
did not know the merits and demerits of the proposal.
I request the UVV to discount the votes generated by Mr. Datta'a
(possibly well-intentioned) campaign. If it is not possible to discount
them, a revote must be taken.
Uday Reddy
Uday Reddy
Vivek R. Prabhu wrote:
>
> While you may feel this way, there are many who feel that the proposal for
> soc.culture.kashmir itself was based on petty regionalism, and was backed
> by dubious elements.
>
> This is something we cannot avoid here, there will always be extraneous
> factors involved in newsgroup creation and conduct.
Petty regionalism, eh? Of the 169 YES votes, I could count only 13
Hindu names. Needless to say the majority of 312 NO votes were Hindus.
Let us look at the other side. There was NO SINGLE Muslim vote among
the NO's. All subcontinential muslim voters voted for the newsgroup.
So, Mr. Prabhu, this doesn't look to me like an issue of petty
regionalism. It is petty *communalism*. And, it is pretty clear who
the communalists are.
Uday Reddy
Bruce Baugh
>I suspect that there were very few "NO" votes for your reasons,
>however.
A perusal of the result suggests very strongly that you're right.
>the RFD period. I think you'd have to agree that most of the "NO"
>votes were probably for petty nationalistic reasons.
Absolutely.
>I do hope that we can try this one again in six months, perhaps with a
>robo-mod charter. Ideally, there would be appeals court in place in
>case nationalists vote it down again.
That would be handy.
N. Tiwari
: ba...@aol.com wrote:
: >
: > Almost all YES votes are muslim
: > and ALL of the NO votes are hindus.
: > South Indians hindus seem to be dominating the NOs.
: > What the f*** is wrong with the southies. If the kashmiri's
: > want their own newsgroups let them have it.
: > This is hindu hegemony on the net.
Mr. Eagle (Baaj).
What the hell is wrong with Muslims. That they seem
to have voted NO almost unanimously. As for the
wrong with southies, I think that that wrong is
also present with the northies. I am a northie,
and voted NO.
If "Hindu vote no" then it is there hegemony, and
if "Muslims vote yes" then what would you call it.
Use your own logic, Mr. Eagle.
nachiketa
--
Nachiketa Tiwari
John Stone
I'm a Christian and I would have voted for it if I was aware of the
voting going on. I take no sides in the Kashmir conflict but I believe
every country or region should have their own newsgroup if they want
one. John S.
Venkatesh Jagadeeshwara
In article <333AA6...@pilot.msu.edu>, John Stone <sto...@pilot.msu.edu>
writes:
We already have soc.culture.indian.jammu-kashmir.Majority of the people
would have supported soc.culture.indian.kashmir.
cSingh
N. Tiwari wrote:
>
> : ba...@aol.com wrote:
> : >
> : > Almost all YES votes are muslim
> : > and ALL of the NO votes are hindus.
> : > South Indians hindus seem to be dominating the NOs.
>
> Mr. Eagle (Baaj).
>
> What the hell is wrong with Muslims. That they seem
> to have voted NO almost unanimously. As for the
The hindus who are mindlessly voting NO are denying the Kashmiris
the right to have the newsgroup they want. The YES votes are not doing
that.
This group is justified because:
- Kashmir is a disputed region
- substantial % of Kashmiri population lives in "POK" or
outside India Kashmir
- Majority of Kashmiris want freedom. If GOI doesn't admit that
than they should have a plebisite.
- Most of the south Indians I know have zero knowledge about the
background of the Kashmir problem. They are just voting to
irritate the kashmiris.
By doing that they are widening the rift.
If they want it let them have it.
The only way to keep Kashmir is to convince them, not subjugate them.
cSingh
Venkatesh Jagadeeshwara wrote:
> We already have soc.culture.indian.jammu-kashmir.Majority of the people
> would have supported soc.culture.indian.kashmir.
Do you care for the Kashmiris living on the other side of the
border ?
Do you care if overwhelming majority of Kashmiris want freedom ?
Venkatesh Jagadeeshwara
In article <333AC3...@cc.com>, cSingh <c...@cc.com> writes:
|> Venkatesh Jagadeeshwara wrote:
|>
|> > We already have soc.culture.indian.jammu-kashmir.Majority of the
|> people
|> > would have supported soc.culture.indian.kashmir.
|>
|>
|> Do you care for the Kashmiris living on the other side of the
|> border ?
Until the current LOC is accepted as international border we cannot have
another
news group catering to the people residing on other side.
|> Do you care if overwhelming majority of Kashmiris want freedom ?
Yeh,majority,world will really appreciate their style of becoming
majority.
I don't know how many people have the knowledge of ethnic cleansing(sorry
about the spelling)done by the particular group to become majority.It
should seen to be belived .Have you see the state in which kashmiri
pandits are living in refugee camps in Delhi.Did you read the latest news
item of masscare of innocent
kashmiri pandits.
Baldeep Dhaliwal
N. Tiwari <nti...@rs3.esm.vt.edu> wrote in article
<5hdtrv$nuq$2...@solaris.cc.vt.edu>...
> : ba...@aol.com wrote:
> : >
> : > Almost all YES votes are muslim
> : > and ALL of the NO votes are hindus.
> : > South Indians hindus seem to be dominating the NOs.
> : > What the f*** is wrong with the southies. If the kashmiri's
> : > want their own newsgroups let them have it.
> : > This is hindu hegemony on the net.
>
> Mr. Eagle (Baaj).
>
> What the hell is wrong with Muslims. That they seem
> to have voted NO almost unanimously.
Read the above more carefully.
>As for the
> wrong with southies, I think that that wrong is
> also present with the northies. I am a northie,
> and voted NO.
The question is why?
>
> If "Hindu vote no" then it is there hegemony, and
> if "Muslims vote yes" then what would you call it.
> Use your own logic, Mr. Eagle.
Please answer the relevant question and don't make up such stupid juvenile
arguments.
If the Muslims want something then obviously they will vote "yes". Why
should the Hindus vote "no" to something that doesn't even concern them in
any way. Typical of the jealous bigots to put forth their best effort to
deny others. BTW, Don't lose your day job in the process.
>
> nachiketa
>
> --
> Nachiketa Tiwari
>
cSingh
Venkatesh Jagadeeshwara wrote:
>
> In article <333AC3...@cc.com>, cSingh <c...@cc.com> writes:
> |> Venkatesh Jagadeeshwara wrote:
> |>
> |> > We already have soc.culture.indian.jammu-kashmir.Majority of the
> |> people
> |> > would have supported soc.culture.indian.kashmir.
> |> Do you care for the Kashmiris living on the other side of the
> |> border ?
>
> Until the current LOC is accepted as international border we cannot have
> another
> news group catering to the people residing on other side.
Why ?
Is LOC acceptable to GOI ? NO. Sheikh Abdulla recently suggested this
and BJP asked for his arrest for sedition.
>
> |> Do you care if overwhelming majority of Kashmiris want freedom ?
>
... .Have you see the state in which kashmiri
> pandits are living in refugee camps in Delhi.Did you read the latest news
> item of masscare of innocent
Yes I did. I also heard about thousands of innocents killed,
tortured and raped by the Indian forces.
Its all senseless killing.
We still cannot prevent a large group of people from having
their own newsgroup.
You guys want to keep kashmir by squeezing the Kasmiris. It's
not going to work.
soumitra
Venkatesh Jagadeeshwara wrote:
>
> In article <333AC3...@cc.com>, cSingh <c...@cc.com> writes:
> |> Venkatesh Jagadeeshwara wrote:
> |>
> |> > We already have soc.culture.indian.jammu-kashmir.Majority of the
> |> people
> |> > would have supported soc.culture.indian.kashmir.
> |>
> |>
> |> Do you care for the Kashmiris living on the other side of the
> |> border ?
>
> Until the current LOC is accepted as international border we cannot have
> another
> news group catering to the people residing on other side.
>
>
> majority.
> I don't know how many people have the knowledge of ethnic cleansing(sorry
> about the spelling)done by the particular group to become majority.It
> pandits are living in refugee camps in Delhi.Did you read the latest news
> item of masscare of innocent
gives us the bengalees a sense of relief , that the Hindutvawalla scums
could not stop our bengalee newsgroups when it started(thanks to Apra et
al) . We have soc.culture.bengali and not soc.culture.indian.bengale or
some other BJP dictated shit.
Subir De
cSingh wrote:
>
> Venkatesh Jagadeeshwara wrote:
>
> > We already have soc.culture.indian.jammu-kashmir.Majority of the people
> > would have supported soc.culture.indian.kashmir.
>
> Do you care for the Kashmiris living on the other side of the
> border ?
Answer : Kashmiri people are some of the most gentlest and finest
people, no doubt of that, not withstanding some of the terrorist
activities.
> Do you care if overwhelming majority of Kashmiris want freedom ?
Answer : No. The original Muslim invaders of Kashmir never stopped to
ask this question, nor did they bother to answer that question, while
they went on to subjugate the people then. Also, please take the time to
address this question to the Pakistanis, if have the inclination.
Subir De.
Q. Are you (Subir De.) for sck ?
A. Yes. They have every right to choose their forum even if it means
continuous embarassment to the Indian government. This simply adds one
more item to the long list of continuous embarassements to us.
Subir De
Baldeep Dhaliwal wrote:
>
> N. Tiwari <nti...@rs3.esm.vt.edu> wrote in article
> <5hdtrv$nuq$2...@solaris.cc.vt.edu>...
> > : ba...@aol.com wrote:
> > : >
> > : > Almost all YES votes are muslim
> > : > and ALL of the NO votes are hindus.
> > : > South Indians hindus seem to be dominating the NOs.
> > : > What the f*** is wrong with the southies. If the kashmiri's
> > : > want their own newsgroups let them have it.
> > : > This is hindu hegemony on the net.
> >
> > Mr. Eagle (Baaj).
> >
> > What the hell is wrong with Muslims. That they seem
> > to have voted NO almost unanimously.
>
> Read the above more carefully.
> >As for the
> > wrong with southies, I think that that wrong is
> > also present with the northies. I am a northie,
> > and voted NO.
>
> The question is why?
> >
> > If "Hindu vote no" then it is there hegemony, and
> > if "Muslims vote yes" then what would you call it.
> > Use your own logic, Mr. Eagle.
>
> Please answer the relevant question and don't make up such stupid juvenile
> arguments.
Please do no label all diagreements as stupid & juvnile unless you would
like to be seen as same.
> If the Muslims want something then obviously they will vote "yes". Why
> should the Hindus vote "no" to something that doesn't even concern them in
> any way.
Please bear in mind that the original people of the subcontinent were
Hindu (or at least non-Muslim). If you are so concerned, you might like
to address the question of non-interference to the Muslim invaders then.
No nation can invade a country & convert a substantial segment of the
population to their religion and then turn around and plea for
non-interference of the territory they control.
> Typical of the jealous bigots to put forth their best effort to
> deny others. BTW, Don't lose your day job in the process.
>
Please refrain from such juvenile terms like 'jealous bigots' (unless
you insist, of course). Your concern for the denied is certainly not
genuine. Your concern for laying a parting shot is undeniable.
Subir De.
> >
> > nachiketa
> >
> > --
> > Nachiketa Tiwari
> >
Baldeep Dhaliwal
Subir De <vortex!s...@attmail.com> wrote in article
<333BDA...@attmail.com>...
Dude, spare us your history here. This is a contemporary issue and every
community deserves a newsgroup on the internet if they want one. What
right do you losers have to interfere in such matters.
Uday Reddy
Jeremy Billones wrote:
>
> In article <19970321005...@ladder01.news.aol.com>,
> <ba...@aol.com> wrote:
> >s.c.p.m has been voted down the same way by the hindus.
>
> s.c.p.m got voted down, among other reasons, because the proponents
> could barely get 100 Usenet posters to vote YES, let alone 100 more YES
> than NO.
Pardon my ignorance. But, what is s.c.p.m?
Uday Reddy
Uday Reddy
Jani Patokallio wrote:
>
> Repeat after me: Usenet is NOT a democracy.
[snipped]
> How does this apply to Usenet? Usenet happens to have a structure, the
> group voting process, which at first glance appears to be a democratic
> system. The people vote on issues and groups are created and destroyed
> according to the whim of the majority, or so it would seem. But in
> reality, this system exists only to give the real rulers, the system
> administrators, an easy method of picking what groups they want and
> what groups they don't want. Anybody can issue a group-creation
> command, if they have the sufficient technical knowledge to do so, but
> only groups that go through 'official' channels (in other words, the
> RFD/CFV-process) will be widely acknowledged.
I don't see anything in this explanation that suggests that Usenet is
not a democracy. If at all, it is more democratic than the United
States government, which after all doesn't call for a vote from the
general public on every issue.
Uday Reddy
Uday Reddy
Subir De wrote:
>
> Q. Are you (Subir De.) for sck ?
> A. Yes. They have every right to choose their forum even if it means
> continuous embarassment to the Indian government. This simply adds one
> more item to the long list of continuous embarassements to us.
But, Mr. De, don't you find it embarassing that the self-appointed
nationalists come out in droves to suppress the voice of Kashmiris? I
care little for the Indian government's embarassment; God knows they
deserve what they are getting. But, it is the Indian people that I
would care about, and, as an Indian, I *am* terribly embarassed with the
vote.
Uday Reddy
Ajaz Siraj
>We already have soc.culture.indian.jammu-kashmir.Majority of the people
>would have supported soc.culture.indian.kashmir.
How would soc.culture.indian.kashmir differ from soc.culture.indian.jammu-
kashmir? The soc.culture.kashmir, on the other hand, with neutral name-
space, can provide a healthy environment for discussions on Kashmir.
The only reason I can think of that anybody would vote NO on this forum
is if they were somehow afraid to face the truth in the discussion with
people of Kashmir.
~ajaz
Jani Patokallio
Uday Reddy (re...@cs.uiuc.edu) wrote:
: Jani Patokallio wrote:
: > How does this apply to Usenet? Usenet happens to have a structure, the
Did I claim that the US government is a democracy? =)
My point was merely that while the Usenet system may _appear_ to be a true
direct democracy, the final power does not rest in the hands of the voters,
but instead with Tale and the individual news admins of all the systems
out there.
Cheers,
--
Jani Patokallio | A jug of wine, a loaf of bread, and Thou!
jpat...@alpha.hut.fi | whistling beside me in the darkness. -Khayyám
ba...@aol.com
In article <01bc3c91$e28ac140$18b9...@SadaSingh.wwnet.com>, "Baldeep Dhaliwal" <dhal...@wwnet.com> writes:
>>
>> Please bear in mind that the original people of the subcontinent were
>> Hindu (or at least non-Muslim). If you are so concerned, you might like
>> to address the question of non-interference to the Muslim invaders then.
>> No nation can invade a country & convert a substantial segment of the
>> population to their religion and then turn around and plea for
>> non-interference of the territory they control.
>
>Dude, spare us your history here. This is a contemporary issue and every
>community deserves a newsgroup on the internet if they want one. What
>right do you losers have to interfere in such matters.
>
>
A large group of kashmiris want it. That's enough reason to let
them have it. Internet is an international network, not hindu
rightwing network. If the hindus want soc.culture.hindu-rashtra or soc.culture.rss they can have my YES vote.
N. Tiwari
Ajaz Siraj (si...@intellistor.com) wrote:
This is most ridiculous argument I have ever seen.
SCI-JK is unmoderated. SCI is unmoderated. So, there
is no way that your or my thoughts can be controlled
on these fora. So, your argument that truth will come
out, if scik is allowed to pass is hollow. Because
it could come out even now. Why do you not post your
views on sci. Let it come out. Or is that it could come
out only on sck.
--
Nachiketa Tiwari
Uday Reddy
Jani Patokallio wrote:
>
> My point was merely that while the Usenet system may _appear_ to be a true
> direct democracy, the final power does not rest in the hands of the voters,
> but instead with Tale and the individual news admins of all the systems
> out there.
So, I take it that Tale and the individual news admins are well within
their power to create SCK in spite of the vote result, if they find good
reason to do so?
Uday Reddy
Uday Reddy
Uday Reddy wrote:
>
> Pardon my ignorance. But, what is s.c.p.m?
Got it. soc.culture.punjab.moderated. Thanks for the replies.
Uday Reddy
momin
cSingh wrote:
> Do you care for the Kashmiris living on the other side of the
> border ?
> Do you care if overwhelming majority of Kashmiris want freedom ?
We also care about the lack of oxygen in that bandaged tomato head of
yours.
We also care about all the lice and cruelty towards insects in that
bandaged
head. How can we help here??
Eager to help
MominD
Vivek R. Prabhu
It probably was the vote for soc.culture.punjab.moderated.
Regards,
Vivek.
In article <333DDB...@cs.uiuc.edu>, Uday Reddy <re...@cs.uiuc.edu> wrote:
>Jeremy Billones wrote:
>>
>> In article <19970321005...@ladder01.news.aol.com>,
>> <ba...@aol.com> wrote:
>> >s.c.p.m has been voted down the same way by the hindus.
>>
>> s.c.p.m got voted down, among other reasons, because the proponents
>> could barely get 100 Usenet posters to vote YES, let alone 100 more YES
>> than NO.
>
>Pardon my ignorance. But, what is s.c.p.m?
>
>Uday Reddy
--
vi...@abyss.ecst.csuchico.edu (Vivek R. Prabhu)-Graduate Research Assistant,
Systems Engineering Laboratory-School Of Engg., Computer Science & Technology,
Dept. Of Computer Science-California State University, Chico, California.
http://www.ecst.csuchico.edu/~vivek
John Stone
Chris Stone wrote:
>
> In article <5hkb7f$rfc$1...@news.intellistor.com> si...@intellistor.com (Ajaz Siraj) writes:
>
> >The only reason I can think of that anybody would vote NO on this forum
> >is if they were somehow afraid to face the truth in the discussion with
> >people of Kashmir.
>
> would have been filled with nothing but flamewars. I see little point in
> creating groups that will host no productive discussion, at least not
> outside of the talk.* hierarchy. Why should sysadmins worldwide allocate
> scarce disk space to groups where people insult each other endlessly, to
> groups that cannot act as a resource for people genuinely interested in a
> given culture, to groups that offer no one any joy on Usenet? We need
> fewer endless shouting matches, not more.
>
> Therefore, while I entirely support the name "soc.culture.kashmir," I
> voted against this group on the basis of its unmoderated status.
> Granted, most of the Indians who torpedoed the CFV didn't care about the
> niceties of moderation policy, but you are hasty to conclude that "the
> only reason someone would vote NO is if they were afraid to face the
> truth of the people of Kashmir."
I have to assume the newsgroup would be full of "India bashing"
kind of posts and that is why it got so many no votes. John S.
Uday Reddy
Vivek R. Prabhu wrote:
>
> Mr. Reddy has perhaps not followed the entire sequence of events, from the discussion
> about soc.culture.indian.jammu-kashmir, to the present vote for s.c.k's creation.
How did you come to that conclusion?
> During the voting of s.c.i.j-k almost entirely Pakistani Muslims voted NO, and Indian
> Muslims voted YES, and it was then that the Pakistani Muslims came out with the idea
> of voting for s.c.k. Now you tell me if it is petty regionalism involved here, or petty
> communalism.
I am glad that Indian Muslims voted YES for s.c.i.j-k. I would have
been gladder if enough Indian Hindus voted YES for s.c.k.
The issue of Pakistani Muslims is again a red-herring. They weren't
involved with the s.c.k. vote. The numbers show that clearly.
Uday Reddy
Jani Patokallio
Uday Reddy (re...@cs.uiuc.edu) wrote:
If they find *excellent* reason to do so, yes. (After all, Tale overturned
the voting results for s.c.i.j-k.) But I very much doubt that s.c.k will
qualify, even thought the result was somewhat unfair.
Cheers,
--
Jani Patokallio >O._, kvaa. >O._, kooler than jesus!
jpat...@alpha.hut.fi `..' `..' http://www.hut.fi/~jpatokal/
Uday Reddy
Chris Stone wrote:
>
> Um, not quite. This group would have been unmoderated, and therefore it
> would have been filled with nothing but flamewars. I see little point in
> creating groups that will host no productive discussion, at least not
> outside of the talk.* hierarchy. Why should sysadmins worldwide allocate
> scarce disk space to groups where people insult each other endlessly, to
> groups that cannot act as a resource for people genuinely interested in a
> given culture, to groups that offer no one any joy on Usenet? We need
> fewer endless shouting matches, not more.
There are conflicts out there in the real world. If these conflicting
groups come into contact on the net, wouldn't some of that conflict
show? Shouldn't it show? What is wrong if it shows?
I disagree strongly with Mr. Stone if he is claiming that these
newsgroups are worthless because of these shouting matches. Firstly,
beside these very shouting matches, quite a bit of serious discussion
takes place too. Secondly, even through the shouting matches, sometimes
people make some real points which are illuminating. The shouting
matches exist because some people don't know how to express themselves
very well. It would be wrong to assume that those who shout have nothing
of substance to say.
> Therefore, while I entirely support the name "soc.culture.kashmir," I
> voted against this group on the basis of its unmoderated status.
> Granted, most of the Indians who torpedoed the CFV didn't care about the
> niceties of moderation policy, but you are hasty to conclude that "the
> only reason someone would vote NO is if they were afraid to face the
> truth of the people of Kashmir."
I am sure Mr. Siraj didn't mean you in his remark. Rather he was
addressing the people who voted NO on nationalistic grounds.
Uday Reddy
Ajaz Siraj
>Therefore, while I entirely support the name "soc.culture.kashmir," I
>voted against this group on the basis of its unmoderated status.
>Granted, most of the Indians who torpedoed the CFV didn't care about the
>niceties of moderation policy, but you are hasty to conclude that "the
>only reason someone would vote NO is if they were afraid to face the
>truth of the people of Kashmir."
As you aware, Chris, we tried the "moderated" version of this newsgroup
a while back. That proposal was opposed by even bigger crowd. It is a "lose-
lose" situation for the Kashmiries, don't you agree? I fully support
your views on the need for moderated newsgroup but in case of Kashmir or
other regions in similar situation, it might be impossible to agree
upon a moderator that is acceptable to all sides. It is for this reason
the soc.culture.kashmir was proposed as unmoderated. I believe once
created, the SCK regulars could have proposed to turn it into a
moderated forum based on the record. BTW, what is your opinion of all
the flame-wars that are taking place on soc.culture.indian.jammu-kashmir?
I tend to believe that due to *neutrality* of the SCK proposal such
flame-wars could have been discouraged over more meaningful and serious
debates on the Kashmiri cultural and political issues.
Regards
~ajaz
Vivek R. Prabhu
Mr. Reddy has perhaps not followed the entire sequence of events, from the discussion
about soc.culture.indian.jammu-kashmir, to the present vote for s.c.k's creation.
During the voting of s.c.i.j-k almost entirely Pakistani Muslims voted NO, and Indian
Muslims voted YES, and it was then that the Pakistani Muslims came out with the idea
of voting for s.c.k. Now you tell me if it is petty regionalism involved here, or petty
communalism.
Regards,
Vivek.
In article <3339C4...@cs.uiuc.edu>, Uday Reddy <re...@cs.uiuc.edu> wrote:
>Vivek R. Prabhu wrote:
>>
>> While you may feel this way, there are many who feel that the proposal for
>> soc.culture.kashmir itself was based on petty regionalism, and was backed
>> by dubious elements.
>>
>> This is something we cannot avoid here, there will always be extraneous
>> factors involved in newsgroup creation and conduct.
>o
>
>Petty regionalism, eh? Of the 169 YES votes, I could count only 13
>Hindu names. Needless to say the majority of 312 NO votes were Hindus.
>Let us look at the other side. There was NO SINGLE Muslim vote among
>the NO's. All subcontinential muslim voters voted for the newsgroup.
>
>So, Mr. Prabhu, this doesn't look to me like an issue of petty
>regionalism. It is petty *communalism*. And, it is pretty clear who
>the communalists are.
ba...@aol.com
Oh Bahen chod! is that the best arguement you could give ?
Now that we know your IQ, who helped you log on to the
internet ?
Ajaz Siraj
>If they find *excellent* reason to do so, yes. (After all, Tale overturned
>the voting results for s.c.i.j-k.) But I very much doubt that s.c.k will
~~~~~
Is that because of the numbers involved or politics?
~ajaz
Christopher B. Stone
>There are conflicts out there in the real world. If these conflicting
>groups come into contact on the net, wouldn't some of that conflict
>show? Shouldn't it show? What is wrong if it shows?
Of course it should "show"; that's not the point. There's a huge gulf of
difference between hashing out controversial issues and endless
mudslinging.
I *encourage* people to hash out controversial issues, even when conflicts
are acrimonous; that, indeed, is part of what I like about Usenet. I
submit that mudslinging, namecalling, and shouting matches actually impede
substantive debate. Why? When someone has a valid, thoughtful point to
make, that point gets lost in the crowd.
There are plenty of people on Usenet with keen intellects and thoughtful
insight into subjects such as, say, Turkish history. Why do you think
none of them post to soc.culture.turkish?
>I disagree strongly with Mr. Stone if he is claiming that these
>newsgroups are worthless because of these shouting matches. Firstly,
>beside these very shouting matches, quite a bit of serious discussion
>takes place too.
The serious discussion seems to have evaporated from places such as
soc.culture.turkish, any talk.politics.* and alt.politics.* group, and so
forth. And the situation has gotten worse; back in 1992-93 or so, the
politics groups were still somewhat readable. Now, however, the serious
posters have abandoned these groups in droves.
>Secondly, even through the shouting matches, sometimes
>people make some real points which are illuminating.
Whatever nuggets of good discussion may exist are meagre -- and more
importantly, there would be a lot more illuminating points in an
atmosphere in which people can disagree civilly. Unmoderated groups in
soc.culture.* do not promote that atmosphere.
>The shouting
>matches exist because some people don't know how to express themselves
>very well.
I'm afraid that, for the most part, I simply must disagree: they are
expressing themselves only too well. I find it very hard to believe that
someone who posts "I raped a n***** child" to soc.culture.african.american
does so because "he doesn't know how to express himself."
For those few posters who do fit the profile you describe, perhaps they
could learn something by reading a group in which people can disagree
civilly.
--
Chris Stone * cbs...@princeton.edu * http://www.princeton.edu/~cbstone
"Isolationism must become a thing of the past." -Harry Truman
brao
In article <333E01...@cs.uiuc.edu>, Uday Reddy <re...@cs.uiuc.edu> wrote:
...
*But, Mr. De, don't you find it embarassing that the self-appointed
*nationalists come out in droves to suppress the voice of Kashmiris? I
*care little for the Indian government's embarassment; God knows they
*deserve what they are getting. But, it is the Indian people that I
*would care about, and, as an Indian, I *am* terribly embarassed with the
*vote.
As an "Indian" indeed.
Do you really think you somehow bear personal responsibility
(otherwise why the embarassment?) for the fact that there exist a
relatively miniscule number of Indians (what was it? 300?) who voted
against a newsgroup that you favored? I don't know whether to laugh or
cry at such a notion.
Look, whether it is Indians or Pakistanis or whoever from southasia,
they just happen to have different emotional hot button issues from those
sported by, ah, the numerically and politically dominant community on
usenet. When southasians on usenet react wily-nily, according to their
hot buttons, it is natural for the, er, others, to howl, "but those
are the wrong buttons, you bloody savages!"
This is perfectly understandable behavior for a majority community in
the face of open nonconformity by "interlopers", but it is less
understandable why semingly intelligent persons sharing the background
of those "interlopers" should fall for such prescriptive notions about
what people *should* care about.
The fact is that territorial integrity is a touchy issue in regions
of the world (such as south asia) where trans-border ethnicities
combine with the potential of each major state to alter the political
boundaries (contrast the power equations of south asia with those of
north america and you will see what I mean). This is why southasians
react strongly to symbolic acceptance of "identity" proposals like
soc.culture.kashmir, soc.culture.jammu-kashmir, soc.culture.sindh,
soc.religion.islam.ahmadiyya, soc.culture.tibet, etc. I suppose if
Kashmir were to actually become independent, and if someone started
soc.culture.jammu or soc.culture.ladakh contemporaneous with a
foreign-aided violent secession movement by those respective regions,
the same lot that bemoans the "suppression of kashmiri voices" on
usenet will be out in force to stop *those* newsgroups.
This is merely normal human behavior. There is no need to drape
yourself with a tricolor sackcloth and ashes and lament the bitter
fate that made you an Indian, not to mention presumptously inviting
others to join in the dirge. If Mexico were to be in a position to
even remotely take back California, you can be damned certain that a
proposal for soc.culture.alta-california would have brought forth a
similar response.
It is equally normal human behavior to point fingers and say, "chee,
chee. Look at these unwashed southasians. Don't know nothing about
usenet-shoosnet, no?" and telling oneself smugly, "we would never
do something like that" while blissfully unmindful of the fact that
one is not quite in the same situation as "that." But it is all
perfectly human, but still outrageously ethnocentric baloney, of
course. The more fool you if you take it seriously. There is actually
a word for this sort of thing--it is "Orientalism", introduced in a
book of the same name by Edward Said.
Hope you get over your embarassment sometime.
Regards,
Bapa Rao
My personal views.
Jani Patokallio
David Farrar (david....@mx.parliament.govt.nz) wrote:
: Jani Patokallio wrote:
: > If they find *excellent* reason to do so, yes. (After all, Tale overturned
: > the voting results for s.c.i.j-k.) But I very much doubt that s.c.k will
:
: Just out of interest what were the vote results for s.c.j.j-k and why
: did Tale disregard them?
According to the original results, the group failed 82:50, with 2 abstentions.
This result was rather hotly contested, since the votetaker discarded
21,987 (no typo) votes as invalid. In the end, Tale concluded that even
though the vote was very seriously biased (just about every single Indian
newsgroup, mailing list and e-mail address was spammed with prefilled
ballots), the votetaker's action was unjustified and the group should pass.
In terms of voting, this was obviously the Right Thing. However, politically
and morally I find it highly objectionable, since Kashmir itself is
hotly contested between India and Pakistan and plugging ".indian.jammu-"
into the name was done solely for political reasons. Afterwards, the
much more neutral and hence preferable soc.culture.kashmir has been
proposed several times, but it has always been gunned down by the Indians.
Yet another reason to reform the voting process, if you ask me.
Cheers,
--
Jani Patokallio | Elämä ei ole henkeä eikä ainetta, vaan liikettä.
jpat...@alpha.hut.fi | Entropy: http://www.tky.hut.fi/~entropy/
Uday Reddy
brao wrote:
>
> Hope you get over your embarassment sometime.
>
> Regards,
>
> Bapa Rao
Thanks for contributing Bapa Rao. I generally agree with everything
yous say. But, the "merely normal human behavior," as you label it,
could perhaps save me from my embarassment, but I am sure you would
agree that every such "normal human behavior" is not necessarily
acceptable behavior.
Uday
Christopher B. Stone
In article <5hojfg$i...@nntp.hut.fi>,
Jani Patokallio <jpat...@cc.hut.fi> wrote:
>Uday Reddy (re...@cs.uiuc.edu) wrote:
>If they find *excellent* reason to do so, yes. (After all, Tale overturned
>the voting results for s.c.i.j-k.) But I very much doubt that s.c.k will
>qualify, even thought the result was somewhat unfair.
This is precisely why we should have a newgroup naming committee rather
than a CFV. It is silly to continually appeal unfair results to Tale,
because such appeals are not procedural. Why should s.c.i.j-k be
approved, when s.c.kashmir was not? Why should s.c.k. be approved, when
s.c.azerbaijan was not?
David Farrar
Jani Patokallio wrote:
>
> If they find *excellent* reason to do so, yes. (After all, Tale overturned
> the voting results for s.c.i.j-k.) But I very much doubt that s.c.k will
> qualify, even thought the result was somewhat unfair.
>
Just out of interest what were the vote results for s.c.j.j-k and why
did Tale disregard them?
I don't mean this to be challengin - I'm sure there were good reasons,
I'm just curious as to what they were and if there have been any other
precedents of votes not being followed.
Cheers
DPF
(posted & mailed)
------------------------------------------------------------------
David Farrar <d...@ihug.co.nz> <david....@mx.parliament.govt.nz>
I don't speak for the Government and it doesn't speak for me!
Cabinet : http://www.executive.govt.nz
Ministerial FAQ : http://www.ministers.govt.nz/faqhome.nsf
A proponent of the 3rd RFD to moderate news:news.newusers.questions
currently being discussed in news:news.groups
Johan Anglemark
Steven Garman wrote:
> 26 Mar 1997, johan.a...@REMOVE.THIS.bahnhof.se (Johan Anglemark) said:
> /Sigh. What you don't seem to understand is that it *is* OK for people to
> /form a newsgroup for petty nationalistic reasons, if they feel like it.
> /
> /The only valid reason for voting YES is that you're interested in the
> /group's charter and you would be reading the group.
> /
> /The valid reasons for voting NO are among others that the group duplicates
> /another group's charter, that the name is ill chosen etc. Believing that
> /the group's readers will have distasteful political views are *not* a valid
> /reason for voting NO.
>
> Guess again, Johan. One person, one vote, no reasons. The only reason for
> voting no is ... NONE OF YOUR DAMN BUSINESS. In attempting to steer people
> wrong before voting, saying "distasteful political views are *not* a valid
> reason for voting NO" is itself a commission of vote fraud.
>
> Stop committing vote fraud, Johan. It's none of your, or anyone else's,
> business why anyone votes the way they do.
OK.
1. I may have any opinions on what people should mind when they vote that
I wish. That is not vote fraud.
2. I may express those views openly in a newsgroup any way I want, for all
to see. That is not vote fraud.
3. This whole discussion has been taking place after the vote took place.
That is not vote fraud.
Steven, you're a grand one when it comes to asking other people to get
clues. If you happen to know where clues are stored, it wouldn't hurt if
you got one yourself.
-Johan
--
------------------------------
Johan Anglemark
Uppsala Sweden
johan.a...@bahnhof.se
------------------------------
Uday S. Reddy
cbs...@yuma.Princeton.EDU (Christopher B. Stone) writes:
> The serious discussion seems to have evaporated from places such as
> soc.culture.turkish, any talk.politics.* and alt.politics.* group, and so
> forth. And the situation has gotten worse; back in 1992-93 or so, the
> politics groups were still somewhat readable. Now, however, the serious
> posters have abandoned these groups in droves.
From my experience, the soc.culture.indian.* groups are doing rather
well. There are plenty of shouting matches, but the saner people have
also learnt how to keep away from them and keep their discussion
going.
I agree that a number of would-be participants were probably scared
off by the shouting matches and the large volume of articles. Perhaps
something could be done about it. (Now that the issue has been
raised, I am beginning to see some solutions.) But, a number of
participants have stayed and learned how to deal with it.
There is also significant dialogue between the people of various South
Asian countries: India, Pakistan, Bangladesh and Sri Lanka. I have
seen serious and constructive debate about the mutual conflicts that
we face and learnt quite a bit from these debates.
While I agree that moderation would solve some of the problems in
these newsgroups, I think it will also create a different set of
problems (time delays, threads getting munged etc.) The moderated
soc.culture.pakistan.* subgroups are not doing particularly well,
while the unmoderated soc.culture.pakistan is healthy. I think both
moderated as well as unmoderated newsgroups have their own roles. I
wouldn't freely substitute one for the other.
Uday Reddy
clind
Christopher B. Stone wrote:
> ...(snip)...
> This is precisely why we should have a newgroup naming committee rather
> than a CFV. It is silly to continually appeal unfair results to Tale,
> because such appeals are not procedural. Why should s.c.i.j-k be
> approved, when s.c.kashmir was not? Why should s.c.k. be approved, when
> s.c.azerbaijan was not?
The CFV, though well intended, shows it's major drawbacks in issues
like this. It is close to an insult why an entire people should not
be able to form their own newsgroup. As for me, the only interest is
that there should be at least a minimum of YES votes on creation,
a basic charter, and some people willing to be "official helpers"
or whatever in that group.
Regards,
Christer Lindstrom
Jani Patokallio
Steven Garman (SugaHA...@world.std.com) wrote:
: Wed02Apr1997, johan.a...@REMOVE.THIS.bahnhof.se (Johan Anglemark) said:
: />/The only valid reason for voting YES is that you're interested in the
: ___^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^
:
: This is vote fraud, Johan. If you object to that phrasing, then let's call
: is "fraud upon the vote process as a whole". You are passing off a false-
: hood to the body politic, disguised as an authoritative fact of the vote
: process. See below.
I beg your pardon, sir, but it most certainly is not vote fraud, as it
is a mere statement of what is true. Johan has outlined the valid reasons for
voting YES and NO quite well.
: Stop committing vote fraud, Johan. You have no place to *direct* people to
: vote for any reason at all. (This is the major point why passing out pre-
: filled CFV ballots is also vote fraud.) You may, of course, *suggest* a
: set of reasons for voting YES or NO, but in so suggesting, you must point
: out that the right, responsibility and reasons of the vote do not lie with
: you ... it lies with the body politic. They have the right; they have the
: responsibility; and they most certainly have their own reasons.
The UVV has the right to reject votes that are, in their view, cast for
an incorrect reason. This power is rarely used, but it does exist, and
it is what allows the UVV to reject votes generated by pre-filled ballots.
: Steven Garman
: The Attack Dog of Usenet
All bark, no bite, eh? I entirely fail to see what you hope to accomplish
by what even you admit to be a purposely inflammatory and antagonistic
tone to all your messages. Especially when you tend to be wrong. =)
speaking as a member of, but not for, the UVV
Anonymous IU Student
>
> Hope you get over your embarassment sometime.
>
> Regards,
>
> Bapa Rao
>
> My personal views.
And excellent too, if I may say so.
Samir
Jim Riley
In article <5hojfg$i...@nntp.hut.fi> Jani Patokallio wrote:
>If they find *excellent* reason to do so, yes. (After all, Tale overturned
>the voting results for s.c.i.j-k.) But I very much doubt that s.c.k will
>qualify, even thought the result was somewhat unfair.
I don't think that Tale overturned the results on s.c.i.j-k, so much as
he overturned the votetaker's method of determining valid ballots. If
the votetaker(s) had consistently rejected similar ballots in the past,
there would be a case for making such a determination.
As I understand it, the indicia used for rejecting a ballot was that it
appeared to have been e-mail sent by an e-mail client, rather than
e-mail sent by a newsreader client. Also, if the same criteria had
been applied to other votes which were relatively non-controversial
(rastb5m?) votes, a large number of ballots would have been rejected.
I think that Tale rightly recognized that there was no way to determine
which votes were legitimate. And I think that he wisely recognized the
futility of attempting a revote.
--
Jim Riley
Supratic Gupta
N. Tiwari wrote:
> This is most ridiculous argument I have ever seen.
> SCI-JK is unmoderated. SCI is unmoderated. So, there
> is no way that your or my thoughts can be controlled
> on these fora. So, your argument that truth will come
> out, if scik is allowed to pass is hollow. Because
> it could come out even now. Why do you not post your
> views on sci. Let it come out. Or is that it could come
> out only on sck.
SCI is a crowded forum. That is why we created SCbengali,
scpunbub, sctamil.
why these groups are allowed to exist when SCkashmir
cannot be allowed to exist?
I know that you can question what you have just questioned.
If I question you the opposite:
What is Indian people afraid of by allowing SCkashmir?
Why are Indian people thatshit afraid of every damn small things?
Why can't we be little long sigthed?
I believe this:
This is like the fly, try to catch it you can never do it.
let it free, it will come and seat on your nose.
With today's day of information transfer, it is easy to show people
that what is right and what is wrong.
I have stayed in Kashmir net for one year and always succeded in
defending
Indian side, to show Indian view point.
I feel that this Indian meaningless fear is harmfull to all of us.
>
> --
> Nachiketa Tiwari
Karen Lofstrom
brao (br...@pollux.usc.edu) wrote:
: The fact is that territorial integrity is a touchy issue in regions
: of the world (such as south asia) where trans-border ethnicities
: combine with the potential of each major state to alter the political
: boundaries (contrast the power equations of south asia with those of
: north america and you will see what I mean). This is why southasians
: react strongly to symbolic acceptance of "identity" proposals like
: soc.culture.kashmir, soc.culture.jammu-kashmir, soc.culture.sindh,
: soc.religion.islam.ahmadiyya, soc.culture.tibet, etc.
Setting up a Usenet newsgroup for a certain culture says NOTHING about
that culture's real world status. For instance, there's a group
called soc.culture.hawaii. Hawai'i was an independent kingdom; now
it's a state of the US. When we were starting the group, no one
insisted that it be called soc.culture.us.hawaii, or argued against it
on the grounds that it would support Hawai'i separatism (which exists,
BTW). The justification for the group is simply that there IS a local
culture. Ditto for groups like soc.culture.galizia or
soc.culture.catalan.
Trying to use Usenet namespace to make nationalistic claims for
real-world turf is idiotic.
--
Karen Lofstrom lofs...@lava.net
----------------------------------------------------------------------
If Usenet had a coat of arms, the
motto on the banner would be "SO THERE". -- Patrick Nielsen Hayden
Vivek R. Prabhu
In article <334024...@cs.uiuc.edu>, Uday Reddy <re...@cs.uiuc.edu> wrote:
>Vivek R. Prabhu wrote:
>>
>> Mr. Reddy has perhaps not followed the entire sequence of events, from the discussion
>> about soc.culture.indian.jammu-kashmir, to the present vote for s.c.k's creation.
>
Because of your argument that s.c.k's voting is communal in nature, when it involves
regionalism rather than communalism. If it would have been communal, then all Muslims
would have voted against s.c.i.j-k's creation and all Hindus would have voted for it.
That did not happen, whereas for s.c.k's creation most Indian muslims have stayed away
from the vote, and all the yes votes came from the Pakistanis.
>
>> During the voting of s.c.i.j-k almost entirely Pakistani Muslims voted NO, and Indian
>> Muslims voted YES, and it was then that the Pakistani Muslims came out with the idea
>> of voting for s.c.k. Now you tell me if it is petty regionalism involved here, or petty
>> communalism.
>
>I am glad that Indian Muslims voted YES for s.c.i.j-k. I would have
>been gladder if enough Indian Hindus voted YES for s.c.k.
So am I glad that Indian Muslims voted for the creation of s.c.i.j-k.
>
>The issue of Pakistani Muslims is again a red-herring. They weren't
>involved with the s.c.k. vote. The numbers show that clearly.
Nope, you are wrong here. Ajaz Siraj, the Proposer of s.c.k and others are Pakistanis,
and their mtoviation for creation of a newsgroup is not a red herring.
While they may have merit in proposing a soc.culture.pakistani.kashmir, a soc.culture.kashmir
newsgroup is not necessary.
>
>Uday Reddy
Vivek.
clind
Karen Lofstrom wrote:
>(...)
> Setting up a Usenet newsgroup for a certain culture says NOTHING about
> that culture's real world status. (...)
>. The justification for the group is simply that there IS a local
> culture.
> (...)
> Trying to use Usenet namespace to make nationalistic claims for
> real-world turf is idiotic.
Exactly. Unless there is a very similar xxx-group in soc.culture.*
tree, or there is one xxx (but moderated), voting no on the creation
of such a soc-culture.xxx group is a clear breech of netiqette.
If applied to the real-world, not even with a similar group existing,
can you deny anyone to form a public group, national or international.
I think the voting system on Internet is a good _idea_, but it is
the most bizarre "democratic" system I have ever encountered, and
clearly displays it's drawbacks in the kashmir case.
It needs to be redone.
Christer Lindstrom
Hans Linnman
(NOTE! Posted by cl...@carasoft.se temporarily
using another account)
Dr. Jai Maharaj wrote:
> (snip)
> The newsgroup soc.culture.kashmir already exists
> and has been available at those Internet Service...
> (snip)...
> If the ISP fails to offer
> what is needed, simply go to an ISP who does not
> succumb to the cabals and Lynch Mobs. Period.
Nice to hear that there are people around understanding
that the voting procedure can cause bizarre results, and
are able to act themselves.
I'm happy to see that the group exists, and will
follow it for a while.
Good luck!
Christer Lindstrom
cl...@carasoft.se (using another account today)
Joe Bernstein
In article <5hkh1g$e...@lynx.unm.edu>, cst...@math.math.unm.edu (Chris
Stone) wrote:
>In article <5hkb7f$rfc$1...@news.intellistor.com> si...@intellistor.com (Ajaz
Siraj) writes:
>
>>The only reason I can think of that anybody would vote NO on this forum
>>is if they were somehow afraid to face the truth in the discussion with
>>people of Kashmir.
>
>Um, not quite. This group would have been unmoderated, and therefore it
>would have been filled with nothing but flamewars.
Um. The rest of your post, which I snipped, did not address the previous
proposal for (moderated) sck; moreover, I'm not persuaded this line
described the probable outcome of sck's creation correctly.
I haven't seen scij-k for quite a few months, since my present ISP doesn't
carry it. When I did read it for a week or two, it looked like a quite
ordinary group, with a little flaming, some quite academic and/or
interesting posting, and rather too much cross-posting (usually to
sc.indian and random sci.* subgroups). Admittedly, this was partly because
various angry Muslims refused to post there (which I gather has now
changed), but it certainly provided *some* sort of precedent for thinking
that a non-flame-filled group on Kashmir was possible.
I might add that the wholly unexpected tone of the post-result discussion
in news.groups strikes me as another precedent. There have certainly been
some flames, but I've noticed any number of people from various sides of
the political issue making serious efforts to converse courteously and
constructively. Not surprisingly, the majority of these people (notably
excepting Bapa Rao) have also said that they wished sck had passed partly
so that these conversations would have a proper home. At any rate, this is
easily the most civil discussion of Kashmir *including* Muslims which I've
seen on Usenet since something like the first week of the scij-k proposal
(probably more like the first three days).
OK, that said, let's get back to the demand that the group be moderated.
Ajaz Siraj has adequately answered this by reference to the previous
proposal, but let me - as someone who voted NO on that proposal, which
incidentally meant NO on Mr. Siraj as a moderator - make some additional
points. During a considerable part of the RFD debate on sck mark 1, I was
one person loudly calling for other volunteers to moderate besides the one
initially proposed, whose conduct eventually prompted my NO vote. (Uday
Reddy was also looking, and others to a lesser extent.) Mr. Siraj and Asim
Mughal (who makes Mr. Siraj look like courtesy and impartiality incarnate
on this subject) were the *only* people who came forward over the entire
period of RFD debate, some months as I recall. Several names were brought
up as plausible candidates to reassure those concerned about the
even-handedness of the moderation, and every one of those people 1)
refused, either explicitly or by silence; **and** 2) was rejected by other
posters as unacceptable.
Where, then, Mr. Stone, do you propose to find widely acceptable moderators
for soc.culture.kashmir? Where have they been hiding, or do you think
things have changed by now? Why didn't any come forward during the debate
over sck mark 2?
Are you prepared to back a talk.culture.kashmir, at the *very* least?
One could conceivably even try to convince tale that a talk.* group was a
different proposal and the 6-month waiting period didn't apply, though I
doubt it would work.
Joe Bernstein
PS What the heck, as long as we're having futile discussions about a
soc.culture.kashmir, perhaps even moderated, I'll say that my current
favourites would probably be the pair of Ajaz Siraj and Bapa Rao, though a
third person as a tiebreaker might be nice. Supratic Gupta also comes to
mind; though I'm not sure of his technical skills I gather he's Kashmiri?
which is also relevant.
--
Joe Bernstein, writer and bookseller j...@sfbooks.com
speaking for myself and nobody else http://www.tezcat.com/~josephb/
Jani Patokallio
Steven Garman (Suga...@world.std.com) wrote:
: Now, if these certain reasons for voting YES or NO are *guidelines*, not
: *rules*, then you are still committing vote fraud by omitting mention of
: that fact.
:
: Time for a definition? Vote fraud = any attempt to mislead the body politic
: about the process of voting. Process of voting = whatever you do that gets
: your vote counted (with certain manual details, too boring to list here).
You have an interesting habit of making up your own definitions, proclaiming
them to be gospel, and then insisting that everybody else is wrong when
everybody else disagrees. ("Retromoderation", anyone?)
At any rate, you've done it again, because you are most certainly wrong.
Entirely, totally, and flat-out wrong. Dig this:
Vote fraud is intentionally and maliciously violating UVV voting guidelines,
as spelled out in each and every CFV.
That's it. That's the official definition, and the only one with meaning,
since that's what the UVV uses to determine what's vote fraud and what's not.
You can maintain your very own definition of vote fraud if you wish,
but that doesn't make it the UVV's definition.
: /The UVV has the right to reject votes that are, in their view, cast for
: /an incorrect reason. This power is rarely used, but it does exist, and
: /it is what allows the UVV to reject votes generated by pre-filled ballots.
:
: And I hardly approve of it, since it is not a clearly enumerated power.
Neither do I, which is why I've never used it.
: I am very suspicious of the rejected votes of ki...@dhp.com (John Grubor)
: lately. Personally I don't like the shithead, but his vote deserves to
: be counted along with the rest.
No, it doesn't. The rejected votes were not sent by him, they were set by his
automatic filled-in-ballot submitting page. You don't even need to use
the aforementioned power to reject them, since UVV guidelines say (I'll
quote chapter and verse):
# Anonymous, forwarded or proxy votes are not valid. Votes mailed by
# WWW/HTML/CGI forms are considered to be anonymous votes.
Those lines are found in every CFV, including the ones he tried to vote on.
: You haven't examined your ass lately, have you? You're missing a sizeable
: chunk. (Hint: It may have something to do with my bite.) The more of
: your biases and illogic that I expose, the more ass you lose. There's BITE
: for ya!
I find this funny.
: /speaking as a member of, but not for, the UVV
:
: More doublespeak. (Shit, you should work in the legal department of Micro-
: soft, you're so good at it.) If you speak as a member of a set that does
: the enforcement of the rules of that set, then you are speaking for the UVV.
: Unless you want to say that the things you say here have NOTHING to do with
: your UVV job?
It's not doublespeak. When I use that disclaimer, I'm speaking for myself
in my role as a UVV member, but not representing *all* UVV members.
The UVV's individual votetakers also have individual policies on many things -
such as the recently hotly debated real name issue - and it would've been
wrong for me to claim that my view of those issues is the Official(tm)
UVV one, for the simple reason that it isn't.
: | THOUGHTCRIME BAD | JANISPEAK GOOD |
And this is hilarious. Congratulations, you've earned a place in my
signature. (Not to mention my newsgroups line.)
Toodlepip,
Jani Patokallio
A Friggin Individual (SugaTEF...@world.std.com) wrote:
: 21 Apr 1997, jpat...@cc.hut.fi (Jani Patokallio) said:
: /At any rate, you've done it again, because you are most certainly wrong.
: /Entirely, totally, and flat-out wrong. Dig this:
: /
: /Vote fraud is intentionally and maliciously violating UVV voting guidelines,
: /as spelled out in each and every CFV.
:
: Like I said, Jani, you should work for Microsoft or some other large corpor-
: ation, in PR. You do a hell of a job using authority to promote a complete
[yadda, yadda, yadda]
: Now that we have that emblazoned upon the occipital lobe of your cerebral
: cortex, let's consider what the hell I'm harping about. In fact, let's get
: real simple, and point-by-point:
:
: o Little Stevie casts a vote for the "wrong" reasons.
: o The vote is accepted by the UVV.
: o Therefore, little Stevie cast a vote for the "right" reason.
:
: I've said it before, and I will continue to say it to you until you acknow-
: ledge it, Jani: if the UVV allows something to occur (and OFTEN, it seems),
: then THAT is the rule, even if it is contrary to the UVV guidelines.
:
: Now, given that the UVV accepts votes DE FACTO for any reason, not just the
: "guidelines" (note the wording; it isn't "rules"; more on that later), and
: then people like you start saying that there are actually more restricted
: reasons for voting ... well, you are misleading the body politic.
You are being intentionally obtuse. Let's try to spell it out nice and
clear:
The current voting policy was developed to measure precisely two things:
interest in the proposed group (which you indicate by voting YES) and
improper naming (which you indicate by voting NO). Unfortunately,
this is difficult - no, make that impossible - to enforce, but fortunately
there is usually no need to. After all, this is not stated in the Guidelines,
so we don't -have- to, and on the rare occasions when the UVV does invalidate
obviously clueless ballots the reason is that they were caused by voter
fraud. Yes, this is fuzzy and I don't like it, but that's the way it is
just the same, since there are no better workarounds in the current system.
That's it. I originally got into this thread when you started foaming at the
mouth at a Swede who had, quite correctly, pointed out these original reasons
why you _should_ vote yes or no.
How about a nice little analogy?
Crossing the street when there's a red light, ie. jaywalking, is illegal
and punishable by a fine. You should cross the street when there's a
green light, although both methods will get you across the road.
But this law is ignored so frequently that you could well say that, de facto,
it's meaningless. True enough, but that doesn't make it any less a law, and
Bob the police officer can still catch and fine a jaywalker if he feels like
it. Occasionally they do. Would you accuse somebody of "legal fraud" when
they tell you that you shouldn't jaywalk?
: MISLEAD = FRAUD
Black = white? War = peace?
: What all this symantics-izing means, Jani, is that you can crow all you
: want about what voters should and shouldn't do; the meta-issue is that you
: do not have the full power of enforcement. If you cannot enforce (and I
: note that you have not admitted that in the scope of our discussion), then
: telling people to restrict their votes, is fraud. Vote fraud. We've come
: full circle. "Stop comitting vote fraud, Jani."
Your argument is ridiculous. *Nobody* has 100 percent enforcement.
How often have you jaywalked and gotten away with it?
: /No, it doesn't. The rejected votes were not sent by him, they were set by
: /his automatic filled-in-ballot submitting page. You don't even need to
:
: Yes, the vote results I saw didn't enumerate the exact flaw in the vote; I
: was suspecting that just because they were marked from "ki...@dhp.com", that
: they were rejected on that regards.
Suspect all you like, you're still wrong. There were actually quite a few
giggles on the UVV list about how badly Kibo's votes were mangled
(MIME encoding does wonderful things to ballots).
: /It's not doublespeak. When I use that disclaimer, I'm speaking for myself
: /in my role as a UVV member, but not representing *all* UVV members. The
: /UVV's individual votetakers also have individual policies on many things -
: /such as the recently hotly debated real name issue - and it would've been
: /wrong for me to claim that my view of those issues is the Official(tm)
: /UVV one, for the simple reason that it isn't.
:
: Hmm. This puts paid, then, to a myth of a single UVV. Given that assumption,
: then any reference to UVV authority is bogus. UVV authority is actually
: the-UVV-votetaker-at-the-time-and-CFV authority.
Nope. The coordinator of the UVV and Tale can both set official UVV policy
that must be followed by all UVV votetakers. An example of this is the
Guidelines. If you go dig through the UVV's web page (http://www.uvv.org),
you'll find a lot more on issues both common and obscure. For example,
I could not suddenly start rejecting votes from people whose names
begin with the letter Z, since that would go against the Guidelines.
(And this is an enforceable rule too, since were I to do something like this,
I'd be booted from the UVV and Tale would reject my messages.)
Jani Patokallio
I'm not sure why I bother replying to these... probably because it's
somewhat amusing. Although this message seems to contain even more
repetition than usual. Oh well, enough ruminating:
Steven Garman (SugaHO...@world.std.com) wrote:
: Jani, you have not responded to my suggestion: Have you gone to the library
: and looked up a few essays by George Orwell, particularly "Politics and the
: English Language"? Or is the path of self-discovery much too frightening for
Mon ami, I have an extensive collection of Orwell's writings right in my
very own bedroom. And I've read them, too. =)
: What Chomsky implied was right. Your generation is a hopeless mass of sheep.
Funny, I wasn't even sure which generation I belong to. Care to take a
guess?
: Theres nothing obtuse at all about the points I spelled out above. Point out
: clearly how the process of:
:
: cast vote for wrong reason
: vote is accepted
: therefore the vote reason is de facto correct
The process is not obtuse, you are. =) If the correlation between
the reasons behind voting and vote acceptance was 0 (in other words,
votes were _never_ rejected) I wouldn't have started this thread.
But this is _not_ true: votetakers _can_ reject your vote if you
vote for the wrong reason and they have done so.
: I can certainly sympathize with a system being a *practical* system, as
: opposed to an *ideal* system. However, that does not obviate the fact that
: a system's rules are also in its operation, not *just* in its written "rules".
: (I continue to note that you do not use the term "rules", and that you use
: the term "guidelines". Care to tell us the reason for that?)
Because the document is called "the Guidelines", and its first paragraph
states that they are not iron-clad rules, but _guidelines_ than can be
altered in "extraordinary" circumstances.
: My problem with you, Jani, is that you do not admit in your capacity as a
: UVV votetaker that your system's rules allow any reason for a CFV vote other
: than the small set in the UVV guidelines.
Oh, I'll admit that much. I'm quite sure votetakers, even me, have
accepted and counted votes that should rightfully have been rejected.
What I will continue to say is that does not mean the reasons for voting
are irrelevant, not only on moral grounds, because votetakers _can and
will_ reject votes on those grounds.
: /True enough, but that doesn't make it any less a law, and
: /Bob the police officer can still catch and fine a jaywalker if he feels like
: /it. Occasionally they do. Would you accuse somebody of "legal fraud" when
: /they tell you that you shouldn't jaywalk?
:
: Why, certainly. Unfortunately, it seems by implication that you don't under-
: stand the law at all, Jani. Laws are the playground of the wealthy and the
I don't understand _you_. Our hypothetical person here is entirely
correct about jaywalking being against the law. You may feel that
it's an unjust and tyrannical law and that it's your duty to violate it,
but that doesn't alter the fact that it is a law. The law is text on a piece
of paper, but those scribbles authorize policemen to come and bonk you
on the head and get away with it; just like the votetaking guidelines
we're discussing here authorize me to reject votes and get away with it.
If anybody is purposely misleading people here, it's you. The reason you
cast a vote is relevant, no matter how much you try to deny this.
Just ask the 50,000 people whose votes were rejected precisely for that
reason in soc.culture.indian.jammu-kashmir vote. Was that a "fiction"?
Don't get me wrong: I think rules against jaywalking are silly, but I
understand the motivation behind them. I also think having the freedom to
reject votes essentially at will is... well, not exactly silly, but
dangerous, but I understand the motivation behind that right as well.
There are cases where the current newsgroup creation mechanism breaks
down, and the freedom to reject votes is what allows the UVV to apply
_common sense_ instead of the letter of the guidelines in these cases.
I think this is a far better justification than the one for jaywalking,
which essentially states that people are so stupid that they'll get run over
a car unless you make it illegal to cross the street.
: trial, and then state your case to your peers. (Remember, despite efforts
: by the legal system to squash it, juries have the right to mullify laws, and
: can declare "not guilty", no matter what the silly "law" says. I don't know
: how this applies to Finnish, Swedish or Norwegian courts.)
There is no jury trial in Finland. Or on Usenet.
: So, what do you think of my point, Jani? Your UVV is more than usually
: powerless when it comes to enforcing your "shoulds". My point is that since
: you can hardly enforce your guidelines in that regard, that they are FICTION
: and CAN be therefore ignored. (If *you* don't want to ignore them when *you*
: cast your own votes, then go right ahead.)
They are not _entirely_ "fiction", so you disregard them at your own
peril. Just like you jaywalk, have oral sex, or smoke pot at your own
peril.
: Firstly, you have a strange definition of "enforcement", since you could
: manipulate votes (which seems to be against the guidelines -- although I
: can't recall chapter and verse) and swing close votes, but hardly be called
: on the carpet for it since you control the paperwork that would convict you
: of the fraud. (We have enough people who pipe up after a vote result and
: say "I didn't see my vote in the list", but cannot produce a vote ack. This
: is ample precedent to allow a "corrupt" votetaker to swing a close vote and
: then claim the usual "voters who did not their vote acks for some reason".)
Non-trivial. Anybody who sends me a vote (even a mangled one) gets an ack,
and if that ack says the vote was counted, it'll appear on the final list
of votes. For me to alter vote results, I'd have to discard votes before
they get acked and claim mail failures - which would both be suspicious
and grounds for a revote if I did it too often.
: Secondly, if you are still denying representing the UVV when you are talking
: about UVV operations, then what else shall we call that than "doublespeak"?
: You can't have the best of both worlds of non-accountability.
It's a very simple concept. When I use the "saamo,bnf,tUVV" disclaimer,
it means that what I just said is a description of how _I_, personally,
count votes and do my job as a votetaker. Essentially, it's UVV policy
for me, but not for all the other votetakers.
Why do you find this so hard to comprehend?
And whaddaya know, my random sig-chooser has picked your honorary
signature for this particular message:
--
Jani Patokallio | >O._, THOUGHTCRIME BAD, JANISPEAK GOOD -S. Garman
jpat...@alpha.hut.fi | `..' URL: http://www.hut.fi/~jpatokal/