CFV: soc.culture.azerbaijan moderated
Jim Davis
FIRST CALL FOR VOTES (of 2)
moderated group soc.culture.azerbaijan
Newsgroup line:
soc.culture.azerbaijan Azerbaijan and Azerbaijanis. (Moderated)
Votes must be received by 23:59:59 UTC, 18 Dec 1996.
This vote is being conducted by a neutral third party. Direct
questions about the proposed group to the proponent. Do not
distribute the CFV or the information contained in it in any form
without the votetaker's permission.
Proponent: Adil Baguirov <bagu...@scf.usc.edu>
Proponent: Niyazi Mamedov <nma...@uoft02.utoledo.edu>
Proponent: Farkhad Djangirov <74201...@compuserve.com>
Mentor: Chris Stone <cbs...@phoenix.princeton.edu>
Votetaker: Jim Davis <jda...@cs.arizona.edu>
RATIONALE: soc.culture.azerbaijan
Soc.culture.azerbaijan will host discussions and promote understanding of
issues related to the Azerbaijan Republic, one of the three newly
independent Transcaucasian states of the former Soviet Union.
Soc.culture.azerbaijan will allow Azerbaijanis living all over the world
to communicate amongst themselves and with the internet community at
large.
We hope this newsgroup will attract researchers and scientists
specializing in post-communist development, transnational economics, and
regional business development. For this reason, we have chosen moderation
as a means of maintaining a high signal-to-noise ratio, so that the
posters may share their ideas in an atmosphere of high quality discussion.
CHARTER: soc.culture.azerbaijan
Discussions in soc.culture.azerbaijan may revolve around -- but are not
limited to -- the following topics:
1) Culture, religion;
2) Economics, business, oil contracts;
3) Education, science, research opportunities;
4) History, literature;
5) Development and promotion of computer networking;
6) Politics, humanitarian aid, refugees;
7) Travel, tourism, geography;
8) Sports and entertainment.
The languages of soc.culture.azerbaijan will be English and Azeri. Posts
in any other language, alphabet, or non-ASCII coding scheme will be
subject to consideration by the panel of moderators.
The following shall be off-topic in soc.culture.azerbaijan:
1) Posts not related to the purposes of soc.culture.azerbaijan
2) Posts that exceed 75 characters per line
3) Crossposts to three or more newsgroups other than
soc.culture.azerbaijan
4) "Me too" posts; posts that contain an unreasonable amount of
quoted text; posts that do not contribute any new discussion to
an ongoing thread; intensely repetitive posts; polemics.
5) Commercial advertisements or personal advertisements; "spam"
articles.
6) Excessively polemical postings; obscenties; plagiarism and
academic dishonesty, including the deliberate misattribution
of quotations from historical documents and figures. The
moderators shall interpret this rule loosely -- newsgroups are
not academic journals -- but deliberate misattributions have
poisoned the atmosphere in other newsgroups.
7) Posts containing profanity or excessive rudeness; posts that
lack appropriate civility. While well-placed heckles are
acceptable, flamewars are not.
Any post full of personal abuse, slander or libel, or
unauthorized reference to private e-mail addresses or mailing
lists shall also be rejected.
8) Propagation of national, religious, racial, sexual, or ethnic
hostility or animosity -- including posts openly justifying
violence, war crimes, or ethnic cleansing.
9) Binary files, even if they are related to Azerbaijan.
Azerbaijan-related binaries should be posted to the appropriate
alt.binaries.* group with a pointer in soc.culture.azerbaijan
indicating where the binary in question may be found. PGP
signatures under 2K do not fall under this prohibition.
Individuals who believe a particular moderator has unfairly rejected a
submission can appeal to the entire panel of moderators. The panel will
re-evaluate the submission and make a majority decision as to whether it
will be posted. In the event that the moderation panel is evenly split
over whether a submission ought to be posted, the submission shall be
posted..
Anyone may volunteer to join the moderation panel with the consent of a
two-thirds supermajority of the current moderators. Moderators also may be
removed by a 2/3 supermajority of the moderation panel. Of course,
moderators may resign of their own volition at any time.
If traffic in the group proves to be heavy, the moderators may develop a
robomoderation script to assist in their duties.
END CHARTER.
MODERATOR INFO: soc.culture.azerbaijan
Moderated newsgroup name: soc.culture.azerbaijan
Moderator: bagu...@scf.usc.edu (Adil Baguirov)
Moderator: pl95...@pacevm.dac.pace.edu (Azer Ibadov)
Moderator: am...@cornell.edu (Araz Mekhtiev)
Moderator: na...@ruby.ils.unc.edu (Ilyas Naibov-Aylisli)
Moderator: suley...@omri.cz (Elin Suleymanov)
Administrative contact address: bagu...@scf.usc.edu
Article submission address: azerb...@usa.net
Mr. Adil Baguirov is currently an undergraduate at University of Southern
California (USA) majoring in Business and Economics; he has previously
lived and studied in Azerbaijan, Russia, Switzerland and Michigan. Mr.
Baguirov actively participates in the E-Mejlis network covering
Azerbaijani development issues, as well as being the chair of University's
newsletter and volunteer DJ at a radio station. He also maintains a
detailed web page on Azerbaijan at <http://www-scf.usc.edu/~baguirov/>.
Mr. Azer Ibadov currently studies international economics at Pace
University in New York. As one of the best students at the Azerbaijan
State Economic Institute -- where he studied international economic
relations -- he won a scholarship at Pace. Mr. Ibadov is engaged in
research on the Azerbaijani foreign economic relations, and he maintains a
web page of online Azerbaijan-related resources at
<http://web.pace.edu/~pl951863>.
Mr. Araz Mekhtiev is a graduate student in economics at Cornell University
in Ithaca, New York, USA, where he conducts research on consumer economics
and institutional innovations. He graduated in 1993 from Moscow Peoples'
Friendship University with an M.S. in mathematical economics, and he then
studied at the New Economics School of the Central Institute for Math
Economics, Russian Academy of Sciences. He has worked for three years as
a manager at Chemofert, Inc., an international trade company in Moscow.
Mr. Ilyas Naibov-Aylisli is a graduate student in information science at
the University of North Carolina at Chapel Hill, USA. He graduated from
Baku State University in 1995 with an M.S. in Applied Mathematics and
Cybernetics. Mr. Naibov-Aylisli is a 1995 winner of the US Congress
Freedom Support Act grant for advanced studies (1995); his primary
interests are networking technology and software engineering. Ilyas' hobby
is satiric articles; he won an annual "Best Satiric Author of Baku" award
in 1994. See his web page at <http://www.ils.unc.edu/~naibi>.
Mr. Elin Suleymanov works for the Soros Foundation Open Media Research
Institute in Prague, one of the leading research institutions covering
countries of Eastern Europe and the former Soviet Union. He holds an M.S.
in Economic Geography from Lomonosov Moscow State University (1992) and an
M.P.A from the University of Toledo, Ohio, USA (1994). He also has worked
as an intern with Radio Liberty. Elin Suleymanov established and was a
first president of the ERUDIT's Club in Baku, Azerbaijan.
END MODERATOR INFO.
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DISTRIBUTION:
This CFV has been crossposted to
sci.geo.petroleum,
soc.culture.arabic,
soc.culture.iranian,
soc.culture.pakistan,
soc.culture.russian.moderated,
soc.culture.turkish
It will also appear in the following mailing lists:
CENASIA <cen...@mcgill1.bitnet>
Central Asia Announce List <Centra...@husc.harvard.edu>
E-MAJLIS <bagu...@scf.usc.edu>
FSUmedia <fsum...@sovam.com>
International Political Economy <i...@csf.colorado.edu>
TRKNWS-L <t...@aimnet.com>
David Davidian
> FIRST CALL FOR VOTES (of 2)
> moderated group soc.culture.azerbaijan
>
>Newsgroup line:
>soc.culture.azerbaijan Azerbaijan and Azerbaijanis. (Moderated)
>
>Votes must be received by 23:59:59 UTC, 18 Dec 1996.
>
>This vote is being conducted by a neutral third party. Direct
>questions about the proposed group to the proponent. Do not
>distribute the CFV or the information contained in it in any form
>without the votetaker's permission.
>
>Proponent: Adil Baguirov <bagu...@scf.usc.edu>
>Proponent: Niyazi Mamedov <nma...@uoft02.utoledo.edu>
These two people come to the party being anti-Armenian. Recall the Armenian- Azerbaiiani conflict over Nagorno-Karabakh. Their performance on a non-
moderated Armenian email list is indicative of this.
>Proponent: Farkhad Djangirov <74201...@compuserve.com>
>Mentor: Chris Stone <cbs...@phoenix.princeton.edu>
Chris Stone, as has been demonstrated many times in the past is not qualified
to be a mentor. This was the case when he suggested a failed, moderated
soc.culture.armenian. I will not bore the reader with details, unless
demonstrative proof is requested.
>Votetaker: Jim Davis <jda...@cs.arizona.edu>
>
>RATIONALE: soc.culture.azerbaijan
>
>Soc.culture.azerbaijan will host discussions and promote understanding of
>issues related to the Azerbaijan Republic, one of the three newly
>independent Transcaucasian states of the former Soviet Union.
>Soc.culture.azerbaijan will allow Azerbaijanis living all over the world
>to communicate amongst themselves and with the internet community at
>large.
>
>END CHARTER.
I see no reason why this newsgroup, or for that matter, any soc.culture
newsgroup, needs to be moderated. What are people expecting?
>Moderator: bagu...@scf.usc.edu (Adil Baguirov)
>Moderator: pl95...@pacevm.dac.pace.edu (Azer Ibadov)
>Moderator: am...@cornell.edu (Araz Mekhtiev)
>Moderator: na...@ruby.ils.unc.edu (Ilyas Naibov-Aylisli)
>Moderator: suley...@omri.cz (Elin Suleymanov)
Elin Suleymanov is also anti-Armenian for some unknown reason. He falsely
claimed on UseNet that Armenians were stealing Azerbaijani body organs from
captured Azerbeijanis and selling them! Such foolishness is not proof-
positive of the ability to be a moderator.
I see no reason why there shouldn't be an Azerbaijani newsgroup, but it should
not be moderated and certainly not by this biased crew!
--
David Davidian <d...@urartu.sdpa.org> |"If there is a single Armenian left in
Center for Regional Studies | Karabakh this October, the Azerbaijanis
| will hang him in Baku's Central Square."
| -Former Azeri President Elchibey, 6/92
Murat Kalinyaprak
In <57gid5$2...@news-central.tiac.net> David Davidian wrote:
> These two people come to the party being anti-Armenian.
So...?
> Recall the Armenian- Azerbaiiani conflict over
> Nagorno-Karabakh. Their performance on a non-
> moderated Armenian email list is indicative of this.
So...? Is it forbidden by god to be anti-Armenian...?
> Chris Stone, as has been demonstrated many times in the
> past is not qualified to be a mentor.
What did he do...?
>> Soc.culture.azerbaijan will allow Azerbaijanis living
>> all over the world to communicate amongst themselves
>> and with the internet community at large.
>> END CHARTER.
>
> I see no reason why this newsgroup, or for that matter,
> any soc.culture newsgroup, needs to be moderated.
> What are people expecting?
Maybe they are expecting to keep out the Armenian
propaganda crap, auto-posted a few times a day in
newsgroups like soc.culture.turkish... And I would
say that this alone would be a good enough reason
to want a moderated newsgroup...!
> Elin Suleymanov is also anti-Armenian for some unknown
Is there some divine law that requires everybody
to be "pro-Armenian"...? Would you like to shut
off the whole Internet to anti-Armenians...? It
sounds like you would like that...
> I see no reason why there shouldn't be an Azerbaijani
> newsgroup, but it should not be moderated and certainly
> not by this biased crew!
Why don't you pioneer a "non-moderated" Azerbaijani
newsgroup yourself, so that you guys can post your
crap without being moderated...!
BTW: the center of your universe may be Armenians,
but the rest of the world have other concerns than
being pro-Armenian or anti-Armenian... In fact, the
subjects related to Armenians may have absolutely
no significance in their lives...!
MK
David Davidian
In article <57h3fa$7...@cpmt.cyberport.net> mu...@cyberport.net (Murat
Kalinyaprak) responded to <57gid5$2...@news-central.tiac.net> d...@urartu.sdpa.
org (David Davidian) and wrote:
[DD] These two people come to the party being anti-Armenian.
[MK] So...?
So is not a sufficient question! These people are being proposed as list
moderators.
[DD] Recall the Armenian- Azerbaiiani conflict over Nagorno-Karabakh. Their
[DD] performance on a non-moderated Armenian email list is indicative of this.
[MK] So...? Is it forbidden by god to be anti-Armenian...?
It is unfortunate that you find no problem with an Azerbaijani newsgroup being
moderated by an anti-Armenian bias, considering Azerbaijan is at war with the
Armenians of Nagorno-Karabakh. This is like proposing an Islamic newsgroup
moderated by anti-Shiites.
[DD] Chris Stone, as has been demonstrated many times in the
[DD] past is not qualified to be a mentor.
[MK] What did he do...?
Here is just one example, and example relevant to Azerbaijan:
-- start example --
In article <1995Jan7.0...@Princeton.EDU> cbs...@phoenix.Princeton.EDU
(Christopher Bradford Stone) responded to <1995Jan6.1...@urartu.sdpa.
article <3ekimu$e...@news.blkbox.com>, who wrote:
[CBS] In this thread, Mr. Davidian got several facts simply wrong -- whether
[CBS] from ignorance or malice I cannot say. For instance, he claimed,
[CBS] wrongly, that Shusha (which is part of the Nagorno-Karabakh Autonomous
[CBS] Region) was NOT an ethnically Azeri region. This is simply false, and
[CBS] every Sovietologist I have talked to agrees, as does the 1989 Soviet
[CBS] census.
Shushi is NOT an Azeri enclave. It is a region in Nagorno-Karabakh, just like
Martuni and Mardakert. Give the name of a "Sovietologist" who claims otherwise
and a way of contacting that person. I want you to provide a direct quote from
that "Sovietologist".
[CBS] Nagorno-Karabakh is of course an ethnically Armenian region within
[CBS] Azerbaijan; some of Nagorno-Karabkh is occupied by Armenia, including
[CBS] Shusha. Shusha is an Azeri enclave within Nagorno-Karabakh. On this
[CBS] point I believe Mr. Davidian was misleading.
Mr. Davidian is misleading nobody. You don't know what you are talking about.
[CBS] Secondly, Mr. Davidian was also misleading in defending the Andonian
[CBS] Papers. Every mainstream scholar today considers the Andonian Papers a
~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~
No mainstream scholar has made such a statement. Show me how "every mainstream
scholar" has made such a statement. Give me a reference and quote from one
of these "mainstream scholar" making such a statement.
[CBS] forgery -- just as the Protocols of the Elders of Zion was. Mr. Davidian
[CBS] refuses to explain why he is correct on the subject of the Andonian
[CBS] Papers and why every mainstream scholar is wrong. (The Andonian Papers,
[CBS] for those unfamiliar with them, supposedly implicated the central Ottoman
[CBS] government in the Armenian massacres of 1915.)
Mr. Davidian fully responded to you last time you posted on this subject.
-- end example --
Stone never posted examples or proof positive to substantiate his (incorrect)
claims.
[DD] I see no reason why this newsgroup, or for that matter, any soc.culture
[DD] newsgroup, needs to be moderated. What are people expecting?
[MK] Maybe they are expecting to keep out the Armenian propaganda crap,
[MK] auto-posted a few times a day in newsgroups like soc.culture.turkish...
[MK] And I would say that this alone would be a good enough reason
[MK] to want a moderated newsgroup...!
This is the nature of UseNet, free speech, and characterises political
discussion of the region. If you, or others in this moderation process, think
everything Armenians post is crap, then you have presented both your personal
biases and support the actions to artificially filter out Armenian issues from
this proposed newsgroup. This is called censorship -- not moderation.
[DD] Elin Suleymanov is also anti-Armenian for some unknown
[MK] Is there some divine law that requires everybody to be "pro-Armenian"...?
No. However, people who goes around claiming that Armenians sell Azerbaijani
body parts without any evidence cannot possibly be a fair moderator. This is a
simple concept.
[MK] Would you like to shut off the whole Internet to anti-Armenians...?
No.
[MK] It sounds like you would like that...
I will state again, I see no reason for a moderated Azerbaijani (or an soc.
culture.* newsgroup), especially when such moderation is performed those stated
above.
[DD] I see no reason why there shouldn't be an Azerbaijani newsgroup, but it
[DD] should not be moderated and certainly not by this biased crew!
[MK] Why don't you pioneer a "non-moderated" Azerbaijani newsgroup yourself,
[MK] so that you guys can post your crap without being moderated...!
I would not propose any newsgroup whose function is a depository of crap.
[MK] BTW: the center of your universe may be Armenians, but the rest of the
[MK] world have other concerns than being pro-Armenian or anti-Armenian... In
[MK] fact, the subjects related to Armenians may have absolutely no
[MK] significance in their lives...!
Non-sequitur. The center of anybody's universe is irrelevant to this
discussion.
--
David Davidian d...@urartu.sdpa.org | "All he wants to do is to clear
S.D.P.A. Center for Regional Studies | Azerbaijan of Armenians." - Shadman
P.O. Box 382761 | Huseynov, spokesman for Surat Huseynov,
Cambridge, MA 02238 | Azeri Prime Minister (AP) 6-21-93
Christopher B. Stone
In article <57gid5$2...@news-central.tiac.net>,
David Davidian <d...@urartu.sdpa.org> wrote:
>Chris Stone, as has been demonstrated many times in the past is not qualified
>to be a mentor. This was the case when he suggested a failed, moderated
>soc.culture.armenian. I will not bore the reader with details, unless
>demonstrative proof is requested.
First off, for people who don't know what a "mentor" does," a mentor is
simply someone who has experience creating new newsgroups. I have helped
to create nearly a dozen newsgroups on Usenet, mostly dealing with the
Middle East or the former Soviet Union. I am therefore familiar with the
process of creating newsgroups, and I volunteered to help Adil Baguirov
with this newsgroup.
The newsgroup is to be moderated because we want high quality discussion
on the newsgroup; lots of soc.culture.* groups may be unmoderated, but
many *are* moderated, and these enjoy a much higher level of discussion.
The intention is not to censor anyone, and I am absolutely confident that
no censorship will occur.
Unfortunately, Mr. Davidian has an axe to grind against me; he doesn't
like Princeton University, as we have several faculty in the Department of
Near Eastern Studies here whose views Mr. Davidian dislikes. He also
dislikes me personally because I have pointed out some flaws in the points
he often makes on soc.culture.turkish.
Neither of these concerns should enter into a vote on creating a new
newsgroup. People vote NO on newsgroups because some newsgroups are
technically flawed, have poor names, and so forth. In most cases, hey
people should not vote NO because they dislike the subject matter of a
given newsgroup.
In any case, I do not understand how the subject matter of this newsgroup
is objectionable; Azerbaijan is a newly independent country, and there is
no reason why it shouldn't have its own newsgroup. We conduct a CFV to
try and ascertain interest in the topic among Usenet readers as a whole.
Mr. Davidian also alleges that I brought up the "failed"
soc.culture.armenian. Unfortunately, this allegation is wholly distorted.
A few weeks ago, someone submitted a proposal for an unmoderated group
called soc.culture.armenian. I e-mailed the group proponent recommending
that the group be moderated, and I offered to mentor the group if she
wanted. She responded favorably on both counts. Unfortunately, I've not
heard back from the proponent since then. My offer to help still stands.
It's ludicrous to call soc.culture.armenian a "failed" proposal, since it
has never gone to a vote.
I invite anyone who is ill-informed about this controversy to read
news.groups for a while, and I encourage anyone with an interest in
Azerbaijan to vote in favor of the group.
--
Chris Stone * cbs...@princeton.edu * http://www.princeton.edu/~cbstone
"In the long history of the world, only a few generations have been
granted the role of defending freedom in its hour of maximum danger.
I do not shrink from this responsibility. I welcome it." -JFK
Christopher B. Stone
In article <57h3fa$7...@cpmt.cyberport.net>,
Murat Kalinyaprak <mu...@cyberport.net> wrote:
>So...? Is it forbidden by god to be anti-Armenian...?
The moderators are not anti-Armenian. I would not have agreed to
mentor the group if they were. I suspect that the moderators may not see
eye-to-eye with Armenia on certain political issues, but that does not
mean they are "anti-Armenian" any more than the average American is
anti-Cuban.
David Davidian
In article: <57i5r1$r...@cnn.Princeton.EDU> cbs...@yuma.Princeton.EDU
(Christopher B. Stone) responded to <57gid5$2...@news-central.tiac.net>,
David Davidian <d...@urartu.sdpa.org> who wrote:
[DD] Chris Stone, as has been demonstrated many times in the past is not
[DD] qualified to be a mentor. This was the case when he suggested a failed,
[DD] moderated soc.culture.armenian. I will not bore the reader with details,
[DD] unless demonstrative proof is requested.
[CBS] First off, for people who don't know what a "mentor" does," a mentor is
[CBS] simply someone who has experience creating new newsgroups. I have helped
[CBS] to create nearly a dozen newsgroups on Usenet, mostly dealing with the
[CBS] Middle East or the former Soviet Union. I am therefore familiar with the
[CBS] process of creating newsgroups, and I volunteered to help Adil Baguirov
[CBS] with this newsgroup.
[CBS] The newsgroup is to be moderated because we want high quality discussion
[CBS] on the newsgroup; lots of soc.culture.* groups may be unmoderated, but
[CBS] many *are* moderated, and these enjoy a much higher level of discussion.
[CBS] The intention is not to censor anyone, and I am absolutely confident that
[CBS] no censorship will occur.
You have no way of knowing this. I am pointing out that the track records of
some of those involved in the moderation of this group are already slanted.
The only way to assure non-censorship is to make the group non-moderated.
[CBS] Unfortunately, Mr. Davidian has an axe to grind against me; he doesn't
[CBS] like Princeton University, as we have several faculty in the Department of
[CBS] Near Eastern Studies here whose views Mr. Davidian dislikes.
I have nothing against you. My historical issues with you are resolved unless
you engage in historical conjecture. Regarding Princeton, until you just
mentioned it, it never even entered my mind. Because the Turkish government
paid off Princeton to hire Heath Lowey is of no concern here.
[CBS] He also dislikes me personally because I have pointed out some flaws in
[CBS] the points he often makes on soc.culture.turkish.
I don't even know you personally. As far as you pointing out flaws, you have
pointed out items, but have never provided any basis for your claims.
[CBS] Neither of these concerns should enter into a vote on creating a new
[CBS] newsgroup. People vote NO on newsgroups because some newsgroups are
[CBS] technically flawed, have poor names, and so forth. In most cases, hey
[CBS] people should not vote NO because they dislike the subject matter of a
[CBS] given newsgroup.
You and some of the others involved (others I can't comment on because I
haven't read any of their posts) have a clear bias against certain Armenian-
related electronic posts. This is known. Now, if all of you were to propose
a non-moderated s.c.azerbaijan, I have NO issues with it. The issue is
moderation versus censorship.
[CBS] In any case, I do not understand how the subject matter of this newsgroup
[CBS] is objectionable; Azerbaijan is a newly independent country, and there is
[CBS] no reason why it shouldn't have its own newsgroup. We conduct a CFV to
[CBS] try and ascertain interest in the topic among Usenet readers as a whole.
Clearly agreed! But it's a moderated group I object to.
[CBS] Mr. Davidian also alleges that I brought up the "failed"
[CBS] soc.culture.armenian. Unfortunately, this allegation is wholly distorted.
[CBS] A few weeks ago, someone submitted a proposal for an unmoderated group
[CBS] called soc.culture.armenian. I e-mailed the group proponent recommending
[CBS] that the group be moderated, and I offered to mentor the group if she
[CBS] wanted. She responded favorably on both counts. Unfortunately, I've not
[CBS] heard back from the proponent since then. My offer to help still stands.
No, I am talking about the previous attempt where you proposed about twenty or
so moderated groups.
[CBS] It's ludicrous to call soc.culture.armenian a "failed" proposal, since it
[CBS] has never gone to a vote.
It never went for a vote for it failed as a proposal.
[CBS] I invite anyone who is ill-informed about this controversy to read
[CBS] news.groups for a while, and I encourage anyone with an interest in
[CBS] Azerbaijan to vote in favor of the group.
I encourage people to vote in favor of a NON-moderated soc.culture.azerbaijan.
--
David Davidian d...@urartu.sdpa.org | "How do we explain Turkish troops on
Center for Regional Studies | the Armenian border, when we can't
| even explain 1915?" -Member of
| Turkish Parliament, March 1992
Murat Kalinyaprak
In <57hhfa$r...@news-central.tiac.net> David Davidian wrote:
>In <57h3fa$7...@cpmt.cyberport.net> Murat Kalinyaprak responded
>to <57gid5$2...@news-central.tiac.net> David Davidian and wrote:
>
>[DD] These two people come to the party being anti-Armenian.
>
>[MK] So...?
>
>So is not a sufficient question! These people are being
>proposed as list moderators.
Does this mean that you wouldn't object to different
moderators...?
>[MK] So...? Is it forbidden by god to be anti-Armenian...?
>
>It is unfortunate that you find no problem with an Azerbaijani
>newsgroup being moderated by an anti-Armenian bias, considering
>Azerbaijan is at war with the Armenians of Nagorno-Karabakh. This
>is like proposing an Islamic newsgroup moderated by anti-Shiites.
I don't see the parallel, but if you mean that a newsgroup
should foster better felings and better relations between
people, all you have to do is post lots of friendly, pro-
Azerbaijani messages to their newsgroup... I'm sure they
won't try to censure such postings and reply in kind... If
you are worrying that they will reject your anti-Ajerbaijani
postings, what makes you think that you are entitled to be
anti-Ajerbaijani but Azerbaijanis can't be "anti-you"...?
>[DD] Chris Stone, as has been demonstrated many times in the
>[DD] past is not qualified to be a mentor.
>
>[MK] What did he do...?
>
>Here is just one example, and example relevant to Azerbaijan:
I don't know much about the Sucha case... His references
in your example are vague but he mentions a Russian census
for a given year; have you looked into that census data...?
>Stone never posted examples or proof positive to substantiate
>his (incorrect) claims.
And I believe he is right in what he says about "Andonian
Papers" (although he might have not given any references
as you say)... You keep asking for references but what do
you do with them...? There has been many "proofs" posted
against Andonian Papers in soc.culture.turkish, with the
proper references... You have nibbled at them in certain
areas but didn't even touch the elementary "proofs" such
as the date errors (due to miscalculation of corresponding
dates in the Islamic calendar), etc...
>[DD] I see no reason why this newsgroup, or for that matter,
>[DD] any soc.culture newsgroup, needs to be moderated. What
>[DD] are people expecting?
>
>[MK] Maybe they are expecting to keep out the Armenian propaganda
>[MK] crap, auto-posted a few times a day in newsgroups like
>[MK] soc.culture.turkish... And I would say that this alone would
>[MK] be a good enough reason to want a moderated newsgroup...!
>
>This is the nature of UseNet, free speech, and characterises
>political discussion of the region. If you, or others in this
>moderation process, think everything Armenians post is crap,
My above comments clearly refer to messages posted by
"robots", who never respond or discuss anything...!
>then you have presented both your personal biases and support
>the actions to artificially filter out Armenian issues from this
>proposed newsgroup. This is called censorship -- not moderation.
What do you mean "filter out Armenian issues"...? Are
people obligated to discuss Armenian issues? Why can't
they have a newsgroup to discuss Ajerbaijani issues,
which obviously would interest them the most...? Why
don't you pursue an unmoderated soc.culture.armenian
where anyone who wants to discuss Armenian issues can
do it freely and as much as they want there...?
>[DD] I see no reason why there shouldn't be an Azerbaijani
>[DD] newsgroup, but it should not be moderated and certainly
>[DD] not by this biased crew!
>
>[MK] Why don't you pioneer a "non-moderated" Azerbaijani
>[MK] newsgroup yourself, so that you guys can post your
>[MK] crap without being moderated...!
>
>I would not propose any newsgroup whose function is a
>depository of crap.
I myself don't know too many ways of preventing "robot"
posted messages, other than through moderation. If you
do, you should be welcome to suggest alternatives...
And if the nominated moderators is what is bothering
you, why don't you suggest that they nominate others
while supporting the creation of the newsgroup itself...?
>[MK] BTW: the center of your universe may be Armenians,
>[MK] but the rest of the world have other concerns than
>[MK] being pro-Armenian or anti-Armenian... In fact, the
>[MK] subjects related to Armenians may have absolutely no
>[MK] significance in their lives...!
>
>The center of anybody's universe is irrelevant to this
>discussion.
There has been many suggestions in the past, that
a soc.culture.armenian be created... And each time
you voiced your opposition arguing that "Armenians
don't need a newsgroup"... Obviously you look at
everything from Armenian point of view and would
like to shove your issues down everybodies throaths.
If there were not one single French participating
in the soc.culture.french, there would still be a
reason for its existance because a German and an
Italian may want to discuss issues related to the
French culture...
But you can't conceive a soc.culture.armenian that
is not "FOR the Armenians"... Why wouldn't it ever
occur to you that a soc.culture.armenian would also
serve a Japanese and an Algerian to discuss issues
related to Armenian culture... Your attitude has
been that if Armenians need/want it, then it will be;
otherwise it will not be... So, why can't Azerbaijanis
have a newsgroup for Azerbaijanis...? Why does it even
concern you at all...?
It is "ILLOGICAL/CONTRADICTING" for you to oppose
every mention of an Armenian newsgroup, while demanding
"unmoderated" access to every other newsgroup...!
If you don't see it, others do! And it probably gives
them an idea as to WHY...?
MK
David Davidian
In article: <57i5r1$r...@cnn.Princeton.EDU> cbs...@yuma.Princeton.EDU
(Christopher B. Stone) responded to <57gid5$2...@news-central.tiac.net>,
David Davidian <d...@urartu.sdpa.org> who wrote:
[CBS] First off, for people who don't know what a "mentor" does," a mentor is
[CBS] simply someone who has experience creating new newsgroups. I have helped
[CBS] to create nearly a dozen newsgroups on Usenet, mostly dealing with the
[CBS] Middle East or the former Soviet Union. I am therefore familiar with the
[CBS] process of creating newsgroups, and I volunteered to help Adil Baguirov
[CBS] with this newsgroup.
Well, let's see how you were fooled. It was for this reason that I suggested
that a soc.culture.azerbaijan NOT be moderated at all, but rather have it a
normal newsgroup.
[CBS] The newsgroup is to be moderated because we want high quality discussion
[CBS] on the newsgroup; lots of soc.culture.* groups may be unmoderated, but
[CBS] many *are* moderated, and these enjoy a much higher level of discussion.
[CBS] The intention is not to censor anyone, and I am absolutely confident that
[CBS] no censorship will occur.
As I suggested yesterday, you have NO way of knowing this. OK, Mr. Stone, when
I suggested that soc.culture.azerbaijan will have biased moderation, ie,
censorship, clearly you missed the following from soc.culture.turkish:
On Oct 06 03:25:37 MST 1996, Adil Baguirov under his alias of Kazbek Aliev
on soc.culture.turkish wrote:
"Well, I have trouble finding the "Great Armenia" or even tiny Armenia on
the maps before 192X's. You know why? -- simply because Armenia never
existed, just like the myth of the genocide. "
Based on what you claim, this person would not be acceptible as a moderator.
What do your mentoring skills tell you now?
ogu...@skyfox.usask.ca
In a previous article, d...@urartu.sdpa.org (David Davidian) wrote:
>>Proponent: Adil Baguirov <bagu...@scf.usc.edu>
>>Proponent: Niyazi Mamedov <nma...@uoft02.utoledo.edu>
>
>These two people come to the party being anti-Armenian. Recall the
>Armenian- Azerbaiiani conflict over Nagorno-Karabakh. Their performance
>on a non-moderated Armenian email list is indicative of this.
But the charter of the ng says that the moderation panel is open
to anyone who desires to be there. Did you volunteer to the
panel? If you did, were you rejected? To ensure that those two
guys follow the charter, I expect you, a pro-Armenian, to volunteer
to the moderation panel. Further, the charter did not mention anywhere
that pro-Armenian views would not be allowed. Tell us, what's the fuss
all about?
>>Mentor: Chris Stone <cbs...@phoenix.princeton.edu>
>
>Chris Stone, as has been demonstrated many times in the past is not qualified
>to be a mentor. This was the case when he suggested a failed, moderated
>soc.culture.armenian. I will not bore the reader with details, unless
>demonstrative proof is requested.
This is another twist of yours that I cannot understand. What qualifications,
academic or otherwise, should a mentor have? Does a mentor manufacture
voters? There's no rule anywhere that says that all newsgroups mentored by
someone should pass or fail. Well, if soc.culture.armenia failed, it
failed because of many anti-armenia voters out there or there were not
sufficient number of Armenians out there to vote yes. In both cases, Chris
cannot do anything to reverse the situation. Chris has mentored other
successful ng proposals. Check the archives.
And for being so pecky about this proposal, I'll vote YES today to register
my frustration at your boredom.
Ike
Christopher B. Stone
In article <57kasd$2...@news-central.tiac.net>,
David Davidian <d...@urartu.sdpa.org> wrote:
>It was for this reason that I suggested that a soc.culture.azerbaijan NOT
>be moderated at all, but rather have it a normal newsgroup.
Moderated newsgroups *are* "normal newsgroups. There is absolutely
nothing abnormal about them at all.
>As I suggested yesterday, you have NO way of knowing this. OK, Mr. Stone, when
>I suggested that soc.culture.azerbaijan will have biased moderation, ie,
>censorship, clearly you missed the following from soc.culture.turkish:
>>On Oct 06 03:25:37 MST 1996, Adil Baguirov under his alias of Kazbek
>>Aliev on soc.culture.turkish wrote:
I rarely bother to look at soc.culture.turkish anymore, but frankly, I
don't find evidence very credible when it comes from someone who has
deliberately forged quotations in the past.
I should also point out that Mr. Davidian, in his little jihad against
Adil Baguirov, has completely forgotten about the four other moderators on
the panel. Even if all of Mr. Davidian's accusations were true, the group
is not going to be Adil Baguirov's playpen.
Indeed, one of the other proposed moderators works for the Soros
Foundation in the Czech Republic; the Soros Foundation is hardly an
organization that hires closed-minded nationalists, now is it?
Christopher B. Stone
In article <57jlds$1...@cpmt.cyberport.net>,
Murat Kalinyaprak <mu...@cyberport.net> wrote:
>There has been many suggestions in the past, that a soc.culture.armenian
>be created... And each time you voiced your opposition arguing that
>"Armenians don't need a newsgroup"... Obviously you look at everything
>from Armenian point of view and would like to shove your issues down
>everybodies throaths.
And this, I think, cuts to the heart of the matter.
On Usenet, if you don't like a given newsgroup, you can always propose one
more to your liking. If Mr. Davidian wants an unmoderated group on which
to discuss Azerbaijan, he can propose talk.politics.azerbaijan or
something alone those lines. But he should not ask random people to vote
against soc.culture.azerbaijan merely because he dislikes the topic.
Frankly, I know that at least some Armenian-Americans disagree with Mr.
Davidian's contention that "Armenians don't need a newsgroup." I've
exchanged e-mail with some of them. I have no idea which camp better
reflects the stance of Armenian-Americans as a whole.
Mustafa Soysal MS57
Davidian isn't the only one who doesn't like you. I don't like you
because you are a zionist pig. Btw. I am Jewish.
Vote NO to any moderated group to stop zionists taking over this medium.
In article <57i5r1$r...@cnn.Princeton.EDU>,
Christopher B. Stone <cbs...@yuma.Princeton.EDU> wrote:
>In article <57gid5$2...@news-central.tiac.net>,
>David Davidian <d...@urartu.sdpa.org> wrote:
>
>>Chris Stone, as has been demonstrated many times in the past is not qualified
>>to be a mentor. This was the case when he suggested a failed, moderated
>>soc.culture.armenian. I will not bore the reader with details, unless
>>demonstrative proof is requested.
>
>First off, for people who don't know what a "mentor" does," a mentor is
>simply someone who has experience creating new newsgroups. I have helped
>to create nearly a dozen newsgroups on Usenet, mostly dealing with the
>Middle East or the former Soviet Union. I am therefore familiar with the
>process of creating newsgroups, and I volunteered to help Adil Baguirov
>with this newsgroup.
>
>The newsgroup is to be moderated because we want high quality discussion
>on the newsgroup; lots of soc.culture.* groups may be unmoderated, but
>many *are* moderated, and these enjoy a much higher level of discussion.
>The intention is not to censor anyone, and I am absolutely confident that
>no censorship will occur.
>
>Unfortunately, Mr. Davidian has an axe to grind against me; he doesn't
>like Princeton University, as we have several faculty in the Department of
>Near Eastern Studies here whose views Mr. Davidian dislikes. He also
>dislikes me personally because I have pointed out some flaws in the points
>he often makes on soc.culture.turkish.
>
>Neither of these concerns should enter into a vote on creating a new
>newsgroup. People vote NO on newsgroups because some newsgroups are
>technically flawed, have poor names, and so forth. In most cases, hey
>people should not vote NO because they dislike the subject matter of a
>given newsgroup.
>
>In any case, I do not understand how the subject matter of this newsgroup
>is objectionable; Azerbaijan is a newly independent country, and there is
>no reason why it shouldn't have its own newsgroup. We conduct a CFV to
>try and ascertain interest in the topic among Usenet readers as a whole.
>
>Mr. Davidian also alleges that I brought up the "failed"
>soc.culture.armenian. Unfortunately, this allegation is wholly distorted.
>A few weeks ago, someone submitted a proposal for an unmoderated group
>called soc.culture.armenian. I e-mailed the group proponent recommending
>that the group be moderated, and I offered to mentor the group if she
>wanted. She responded favorably on both counts. Unfortunately, I've not
>heard back from the proponent since then. My offer to help still stands.
>
>It's ludicrous to call soc.culture.armenian a "failed" proposal, since it
>has never gone to a vote.
>
>I invite anyone who is ill-informed about this controversy to read
>news.groups for a while, and I encourage anyone with an interest in
>Azerbaijan to vote in favor of the group.
Christopher B. Stone
In article <329df650.4...@mistik.express.net>,
Mustafa Soysal MS57 <mso...@mistik.express.net> wrote:
>Davidian isn't the only one who doesn't like you. I don't like you
>because you are a zionist pig.
Boy, stay on news.groups long enough and one gets accused of being both
anti-semitic and then a "zionist pig." :)
In any case, I'm about to bow out of this debate; anyone familiar with
Usenet knows better than to trust the views of net.kooks, and for anyone
who's been out of the loop, Mr. Soysal's use of epithets should set the
alarm bells ringing.
>Btw. I am Jewish.
Felicitations.
Adil Baguirov
David Davidian wrote:
> > FIRST CALL FOR VOTES (of 2)
> > moderated group soc.culture.azerbaijan
> >
> >Newsgroup line:
> >soc.culture.azerbaijan Azerbaijan and Azerbaijanis. (Moderated)
> >Proponent: Adil Baguirov <bagu...@scf.usc.edu>
> >Proponent: Niyazi Mamedov <nma...@uoft02.utoledo.edu>
>
> These two people come to the party being anti-Armenian. Recall the
> Armenian- Azerbaiiani conflict over Nagorno-Karabakh. Their performance
> on a non-moderated Armenian email list is indicative of this.
First of all, which "party" are we talking about? Second, this is an
Azerbaijan group, not Armenian, so what is that have to do with SCA? We
intend to discuss many other issues, related to Azerbaijan, so I urge
you
to read the CFV again, and find out all of the other topics. Let's not
limit ourselves to such narrow topics.
Second, how do you measure "anti-Armeniness?" Is it because I am an
Azerbaijani? Or because I have disagreed, as many others, with your
views
AND "evidence?" And the fact that I have pointed them out to you?
And lastly, what do you mean by "Their performance on a non-moderated
Armenian email list?" I HAVE NEVER BEEN ON _ANY_ Armenian list!!! How
dare
are you to misrepresent and falsify (once more!) such information? Where
did you took those "facts" from? I have never been in any Armenian list,
and therefore never engaged in any discussions about anything with the
Armenian list members. However, I, and the whole USENET community, would
be really glad to see my alleged "performance on a non-moderated
Armenian email list." Please.
Therefore I see the case closed and urge everyone to vote YES on
Soc.Culture.Azerbaijan!!! Thank you!
Adil Baguirov
bagu...@usc.edu
University of Southern California
Azerbaijan List Owner
SCA Proponent/Moderator
http://www-scf.usc.edu/~baguirov/azerbaijan.html
Adil Baguirov
Mustafa Soysal MS57 wrote:
>
> Davidian isn't the only one who doesn't like you. I don't like you
>
> Vote NO to any moderated group to stop zionists taking over this medium.
This is really unfortunate. I mean limiting yourself to some kind of
hate
toward someone, and putting your personal feelings before the interests
of the whole community of people.
Mentor's job, as Chris is a mentor, stops right after the proposal is
done, and the mentor simply makes sure that everything has been properly
filled out and turned in in a timely manner. That's all!
Moreover, the same applies to the proponents job, as they have to just
actually fill all the papers and turn them in to UVV. After that, they
have nothing to do with the actual newsgroup. So I hope everyone is
clear on that.
I also don't really understand Mr. Davidian's position on newsgroup, as
he
opposes the creation of Soc.Culture.Armenia, which is unfortunate, as it
would only benefit Armenians, and the USENET community at large. While
the
proposal for Armenian newsgroup is overdue, it is still possible to re-
submit it for a second RFD, and I, and I hope all other Azerbaijanis and
Turks will support the creation of such a newsgroup.
I have also noticed a good point in one of the messages, as the
possibility of creation of talk.* newsgroups, as well as any other. I
think this should be taken into consideration in the future. Thank you.
Adil Baguirov
Proponent of SCA
Mustafa Soysal MS57
In article <329ED8...@scf.usc.edu>,
Adil Baguirov <bagu...@scf.usc.edu> wrote:
>Mustafa Soysal MS57 wrote:
>>
>> Davidian isn't the only one who doesn't like you. I don't like you
>> because you are a zionist pig. Btw. I am Jewish.
>>
>> Vote NO to any moderated group to stop zionists taking over this medium.
>
>This is really unfortunate. I mean limiting yourself to some kind of
>hate
>toward someone, and putting your personal feelings before the interests
>of the whole community of people.
Stopping zionists taking over this medium is a tramendous benefit to the
community. You should make a proposal for that group in unmoderated
form. Only then you won't be playing into the hands of the zionist pigs.
>
>Mentor's job, as Chris is a mentor, stops right after the proposal is
Chris Stein is a zionist and he helped prepare his agenda, not the
community benefit.
David Davidian
In article <329ED3...@scf.usc.edu> Adil Baguirov <bagu...@scf.usc.edu>
responded to <57gid5$2...@news-central.tiac.net> David Davidian (dbd@urartu.
sdpa.org) and wrote:
[DD] > FIRST CALL FOR VOTES (of 2)
[DD] > moderated group soc.culture.azerbaijan
[DD] >
[DD] >Newsgroup line:
[DD] >soc.culture.azerbaijan Azerbaijan and Azerbaijanis. (Moderated)
[DD]
[DD] >Proponent: Adil Baguirov <bagu...@scf.usc.edu>
[DD] >Proponent: Niyazi Mamedov <nma...@uoft02.utoledo.edu>
[DD]
[DD] These two people come to the party being anti-Armenian. Recall the
[DD] Armenian- Azerbaiiani conflict over Nagorno-Karabakh. Their performance
[DD] on a non-moderated Armenian email list is indicative of this.
[AB] First of all, which "party" are we talking about?
I am talking about both of you. As proposed moderators of an Azerbaijani
newsgroup you come to the party baised! In your case, your performance in
running the Azerbaijani email list at usc, which stole the introductory
messages for new subscribers from the Armenian email list as well as
certainly looking like it was not allowing Armenians on the list, is not good.
[AB] Second, this is an Azerbaijan group, not Armenian, so what is that have
[AB] to do with SCA? We intend to discuss many other issues, related to
[AB] Azerbaijan, so I urge you to read the CFV again, and find out all of the
[AB] other topics. Let's not limit ourselves to such narrow topics.
I don't care about other issues. I am talking about the bias of you, Niyazi,
and Suleymanov regarding any Armenian issues. If you are biased against
Armenian issues while moderating this new group, there is no reason not
to expect biases regarding other topics.
[AB] Second, how do you measure "anti-Armeniness?" Is it because I am an
[AB] Azerbaijani? Or because I have disagreed, as many others, with your
[AB] views AND "evidence?" And the fact that I have pointed them out to you?
I don't care what you are. There are other Azerbaijanis involved in this
proposed newsgroup, and I cannot pass any judgement on them for I have no
information as reference. I can only assume they are normal.
[AB] And lastly, what do you mean by "Their performance on a non-moderated
[AB] Armenian email list?" I HAVE NEVER BEEN ON _ANY_ Armenian list!!! How
[AB] dare are you to misrepresent and falsify (once more!) such information?
[AB] Where did you took those "facts" from? I have never been in any Armenian
[AB] list, and therefore never engaged in any discussions about anything with
[AB] the Armenian list members. However, I, and the whole USENET community,
[AB] would be really glad to see my alleged "performance on a non-moderated
[AB] Armenian email list." Please.
Oh, Please, Adil, I have copies of emails between you and the Armenian list's
administration, since I am assiociated peripherally with that lists's
administration. Clearly, I was referring to you and Niyazi differently. There
is no way I can accuse people otherwise when there is a public record.
[AB] Therefore I see the case closed and urge everyone to vote YES on
[AB] Soc.Culture.Azerbaijan!!! Thank you!
[AB] Adil Baguirov
[AB] bagu...@usc.edu
[AB] University of Southern California
[AB] Azerbaijan List Owner
Case is not closed.
Adil Baguirov
On 1 Dec 1996, David Davidian wrote:
*In article <329ED3...@scf.usc.edu> Adil Baguirov <bagu...@scf.usc.edu>
*responded to <57gid5$2...@news-central.tiac.net> David Davidian (dbd@urartu.
*sdpa.org) and wrote:
*
*[DD] > FIRST CALL FOR VOTES (of 2)
*[DD] > moderated group soc.culture.azerbaijan
*[DD] >
*[DD] >Newsgroup line:
*[DD] >soc.culture.azerbaijan Azerbaijan and Azerbaijanis. (Moderated)
*[DD]
*[DD] >Proponent: Adil Baguirov <bagu...@scf.usc.edu>
*[DD] >Proponent: Niyazi Mamedov <nma...@uoft02.utoledo.edu>
*[DD]
*[DD] These two people come to the party being anti-Armenian. Recall the
*[DD] Armenian- Azerbaiiani conflict over Nagorno-Karabakh. Their performance
*[DD] on a non-moderated Armenian email list is indicative of this.
*
*[AB] First of all, which "party" are we talking about?
*
*I am talking about both of you. As proposed moderators of an Azerbaijani
*newsgroup you come to the party baised! In your case, your performance in
*running the Azerbaijani email list at usc, which stole the introductory
*messages for new subscribers from the Armenian email list as well as
*certainly looking like it was not allowing Armenians on the list, is not good.
First of all, I haven't "stole" the introductory text. In fact, Mr. Asbed
Bedrossian, the owner of the Armenian list(s) knew about it, and even
LIKED the text, as I have had informed him and had him as part of our
workgroup and waited for his feedback before start subscriptions! So such
accusation is irrelevant and falsification!
The text has as much similarities with the Armenian lists welcome message
as any other lists, i.e. same style: greetings, introduction, history,
guidelines, suggestions, commands, conclusion. Moreover, I never made a
secret that Armenian list's introductory message was one of the texts by
which the Azerbaijan lists welcome message was written. In addition to the
above, it was a group collaboration for 3 weeks, as I wasn't the only one
to write it. So unless you consider following some generally acceptable
style and format of such documents, which was really nicely used in
Armenian lists intro message, "stealing" then you are definitely right!
However, any other person will probably have opposite opinion. Sorry...
Also, another falsification: we HAVE Armenian subscribers, on both lists,
from the beginning, and they are active! Moreover, nobody kicks them out,
with posts, both private and public, full of hate and misconception, like
it happened to Niyazi Mamedov, as well as other two Azeri (first ever)
members of the Armenian lists. Moreover, is there Azerbaijanis on the list
right now? No?! That's what I though, you kicked them all out! But we are
not gonna follow your "perfect" example of welcoming new members! So
please get your "evidence" straight and stop falsifying information:
people are watching! :-)
*
*[AB] Second, this is an Azerbaijan group, not Armenian, so what is that have
*[AB] to do with SCA? We intend to discuss many other issues, related to
*[AB] Azerbaijan, so I urge you to read the CFV again, and find out all of the
*[AB] other topics. Let's not limit ourselves to such narrow topics.
*
*I don't care about other issues.
What do you mean? Too bad for you, limited person you are!!!
*I am talking about the bias of you, Niyazi,
*and Suleymanov regarding any Armenian issues.
What do you mean by "bias?" Once again, the fact that I am Azerbaijani? Am
I supposed to love you? Mr. Davidian, from YOUR posts on Azerbaijan, I
should say you ARE FULL OF HATE, as "bias" would not describe you
properly!!!
*If you are biased against
*Armenian issues while moderating this new group, there is no reason not
*to expect biases regarding other topics.
*
Once again, I am one moderator among other four! Moreover, this is going
to be _Azerbaijan newsgroup_, so I don't see your point, I personally have
many other aspects about my beautiful country to talk about, and so are
other people, including Armenians!
Once again, if you want to talk about Armenian issues, that cool, fine and
great, but why not to create S.C.Armenia? You have my vote for it! Why do
you oppose it?
*[AB] Second, how do you measure "anti-Armeniness?" Is it because I am an
*[AB] Azerbaijani? Or because I have disagreed, as many others, with your
*[AB] views AND "evidence?" And the fact that I have pointed them out to you?
*
*I don't care what you are.
Of course you do! Otherwise, there would be no such accusations!
*There are other Azerbaijanis involved in this
*proposed newsgroup, and I cannot pass any judgement on them for I have no
Good!
*information as reference. I can only assume they are normal.
*
So am I "abnormal?" :-)
*[AB] And lastly, what do you mean by "Their performance on a non-moderated
*[AB] Armenian email list?" I HAVE NEVER BEEN ON _ANY_ Armenian list!!! How
*[AB] dare are you to misrepresent and falsify (once more!) such information?
*[AB] Where did you took those "facts" from? I have never been in any Armenian
*[AB] list, and therefore never engaged in any discussions about anything with
*[AB] the Armenian list members. However, I, and the whole USENET community,
*[AB] would be really glad to see my alleged "performance on a non-moderated
*[AB] Armenian email list." Please.
*
*Oh, Please, Adil, I have copies of emails between you and the Armenian list's
??? And??? Go on, go on, we are listening....
*administration, since I am assiociated peripherally with that lists's
Ohh, really? trying really bad to explain how you got them, uh? ILLEGALLY!
*administration. Clearly, I was referring to you and Niyazi differently. There
*is no way I can accuse people otherwise when there is a public record.
*
You haven't answered the question and apologized for your falsification
in public to me! I repeat, when and what have/did I been/do on the
Armenian list(s)???!!!
You say, you have intended that comment ONLY for Niyazi, right? Then what
is this comment, that you have erased from the above: "_Their_ performance
on a non-moderated Armenian email list?" [__Underlining mine, AB]
Second, Mr. Bedrossian never told me about sharing private e-mails with
you! That's called "copyright infringement!" Neither have I heard of you
being on the board of owners of the Armenian lists from the owner!
And then, why do you "referring to you and Niyazi differently?" I am right
here, address it ONLY to me, and stop generalizing!
*[AB] Therefore I see the case closed and urge everyone to vote YES on
*[AB] Soc.Culture.Azerbaijan!!! Thank you!
*
*[AB] Adil Baguirov
*
*Case is not closed.
Case WAS already closed after my first answer. Please don't disturb the
USENET community unless have new falsifications ready for me and others to
laugh at, ok? Merry Christmas!
Adil Baguirov
Ken Arromdee
cbs...@yuma.Princeton.EDU (Christopher B. Stone) wrote:
>I rarely bother to look at soc.culture.turkish anymore, but frankly, I
>don't find evidence very credible when it comes from someone who has
>deliberately forged quotations in the past.
Which quotations in particular has he forged?
--
Ken Arromdee (arro...@randomc.com, karr...@nyx.nyx.net,
http://www.randomc.com/~arromdee)
"2000 members of the vegetable kingdom and I have to work with _tomatoes_!"
AbdulraHman Lomax
I have read a little of the debate in news.groups regarding the
formation of this newsgroup. I was initially so much in favor of the
proposal, seeing it in soc.religion.islam, that I almost voted for it
before looking at the debate as suggested by Mr. Stone. When I did,
however, look, I found substantial evidence that at least one of the
proposed moderators does not display the characteristics which we have
come to expect from usenet moderators. Given this unfortunate
circumstance, I am voting no on the formation of this group at this
time, because a moderated newsgroup essentially precludes, in certain
ways, an unmoderated one, and an unmoderated group is better than a
moderated group with an immature moderator. We have seen in
soc.religion.islam how difficult it is to remove a rogue moderator,
and we very nearly escaped having a *panel* of rogue moderators,
pursuing a private agenda.
Here is a critical piece of the debate, a comment by the moderator in
question:
>[AB] Case WAS already closed after my first answer.
>Please don't disturb the USENET community unless have new falsifications
>ready for me and others to laugh at, ok? Merry Christmas!
This comment is utterly unworthy of a moderator, who must not only be
fair and relatively unbiased, but who must be capable also of
maintaining the appearance of the same. A moderator should never
display the kind of arrogant sarcasm shown in this response, which is
*not* taken out of context; it is consistent with the rest of his
post, which was an intemperate response to charges that he was biased.
Moderators inevitably are charged with bias; it is essential that they
be capable of not reacting in such a way as to become part of the
problem rather than part of the solution.
It is unfortunate that the choice of this person as moderator might
result in the postponement of the formation of an otherwise worthy
newsgroup. Obviously, my comments do not reflect upon any of the other
proposed moderators, about whom I have no knowledge, nor do I have any
other knowledge of Br. Adil than what was demonstrated in his posting.
AbdulraHman Lomax
mar...@ioa.com
P.O. Box 5123
Asheville, NC 28813
James Huang
I would like to bring this infringement of the RFD etiquette to the
attention of the Usenet Administrators and the Volunteer Votetakers.
The ongoing discussion re the creation of the s.c.azerbaijan has been
spread beyond the "walls" of the proper (news.groups) forum as is shown
by the header lines clipped from the latest infringement.
<quote>
Newsgroups: soc.culture.turkish,news.groups,sci.geo.petroleum
Subject: Re: David Davidian's false accusations on Adil Baguirov and s.c.a
</quote>
This was brought to the attention of the parties concerned via followups
as well as private email but was ignored.
I wonder if there are any regulations about putting a newsgroup creation
proposal in the "penalty box" because of repeated infringements?
James Huang
sci.geo.petroleum
Jim Davis
LAST CALL FOR VOTES (of 2)
moderated group soc.culture.azerbaijan
RATIONALE: soc.culture.azerbaijan
CHARTER: soc.culture.azerbaijan
END CHARTER.
MODERATOR INFO: soc.culture.azerbaijan
Moderated newsgroup name: soc.culture.azerbaijan
END MODERATOR INFO.
HOW TO VOTE:
Send email to: j...@primenet.com
VOTING PROCEDURE NOTES:
DISTRIBUTION:
soc.culture.azerbaijan Bounce List - No need to revote
------------------------------------------------------------------------------
2...@acsu.buffalo.edu Nader Nader-Djalal, M.D.
Digi...@zen.ocean.com.au Michael Hovivyan
Joe_Dagdigian/US/3Com%3C...@smtp1.isd.3com.com Joe_Dagdigian
Jpe...@ritenet.com John peter
s68...@stud-mail.uni-wuerzburg.de
s...@mil.nk.am Sam R. Mailian
serah@@sgipro.amicus.com serah
stu...@cw-f1.umd.umich.edu Student
M.P.
HEY GUYS..... does anyone there speak ENGLISH!
Please take this whole thread OUT of Sci.Geo.Petroleum, as you have
already been *repetedly* asked to do.... Or we shall help to launch an all
out assault on your other channels that will naturally be as appreciated
as your silly posts are to us!
I can only assume that this was a case of someone with *VERY*
LIMITED ENGLISH SKILLS posting to the wrong group..... Would suggest you
send them a dictionary ASAP (that means QUICK!) & unplug their computer
until they are truly conversant or until they wish to make a public
apology to this channel.
Since you have FORCED the question of a VOTE upon us, I plan to urge
all here to vote a resounding NO!
--
If I traveled to the end of the rainbow, as Dame Fortune did intend,
Murphey would be there to tell me, "the pot's at the _other_ end!"
Jim Davis
RESULT
moderated group soc.culture.azerbaijan fails 1732:920
There were 1732 YES votes and 920 NO votes, for a total of 2652 valid votes.
There were 23 invalid ballots.
For group passage, YES votes must be at least 2/3 of all valid (YES and NO)
votes. There also must be at least 100 more YES votes than NO votes.
There is a five day discussion period after these results are posted.
Unless serious allegations of voting irregularities are raised, the group may
not be voted on again for six months.
Newsgroup line:
soc.culture.azerbaijan Azerbaijan and Azerbaijanis. (Moderated)
This vote was conducted by a neutral third party. Direct
questions about the proposed group to the proponent.
Proponent: Adil Baguirov <bagu...@scf.usc.edu>
RATIONALE: soc.culture.azerbaijan
CHARTER: soc.culture.azerbaijan
END CHARTER.
MODERATOR INFO: soc.culture.azerbaijan
Moderated newsgroup name: soc.culture.azerbaijan
END MODERATOR INFO.
soc.culture.azerbaijan Final Vote Ack
Voted Yes
------------------------------------------------------------------------------
00051...@mcimail.com G. Amerzehni
00059...@mcimail.com Embassy of Azerbaijan
10034...@CompuServe.COM Peter Burnett
10042...@CompuServe.COM Radio Worldwide
10044...@CompuServe.COM Arve Kraakenes
10057...@CompuServe.COM Mehmet Binay
10067...@CompuServe.COM DAW & JEW
10137...@CompuServe.COM TAMTURK
102...@cc.eee.metu.edu.tr DBA
10363...@CompuServe.COM CENK . HEPAKTAN
10470...@compuserve.com Mete Koeksen
2...@acsu.buffalo.edu Nader Nader-Djalal, M.D.
4l...@qlink.queensu.ca
6688...@mmu.ac.uk eray
74201...@CompuServe.COM Farkhad Djangirov
7520...@CompuServe.COM ASHTON T. STEWART
75403...@CompuServe.COM Jayhun Mollazade
7674...@compuserve.com George Beals
77...@cc.eee.metu.edu.tr
78...@cc.eee.metu.edu.tr Rza Nuriyev
922...@talabah.iiu.my Hakan Kiyici
930...@cypress.be.emu.edu.tr IZZET ADILOGLU
931...@talabah.iiu.my Ibrahim Haji Abdoulaev
A.Dem...@sussex.ac.uk Aydin Demircan
A.E.K...@sheffield.ac.uk Emre Karaman
A.He...@sheffield.ac.uk A.Helvaci
a.ka...@sheffield.ac.uk Abdullah Karadag
A.K...@sussex.ac.uk Ibrahim Okur
A.Oz...@sussex.ac.uk Ahmet Ozcerit
a287...@athena.rrz.Uni-Koeln.DE Ali-Esref Arslan
aa...@uow.edu.au Aydin ADA
aa...@watt.seas.virginia.edu Aysegul Aksoy
aa...@freenet.carleton.ca Bijan Razavi
AABB...@clarku.edu
aak...@bing.math.ohiou.edu Adil AKYUZ
aar...@mail.utexas.edu Alla Arapu
aa...@mail.mse.ufl.edu Ali Ata
abad...@euch4g.chem.emory.edu
aba...@rnd.netas.com.tr Alp Bahar
abaj...@indiana.edu Andrew Bajorat
aba...@iastate.edu
ABA...@vm.baum.anadolu.edu.tr Ayla Balci
ab...@interport.net Bulent Abali
abal...@mckinley.hunter.cuny.edu Aydin Baltaci
aba...@neuron.ato.org.tr Dr. AYDIN BAYER
aba...@ford.com Altug Bayram
abb...@ncat.edu Shakir J. Abbasi
abd...@sunse.jinr.dubna.su Ovsat Abdinov x62069
ab...@mech.ubc.ca A. Abdelgalil
ABDU...@biochem-pharma.com Abdullaev, Ikmet
abk...@pitt.edu Abdullah Konak
aboe...@cs.yorku.ca Mokhtar Aboelaze
abo...@vcn.bc.ca Amar Bouallouche
ach...@uoft02.utoledo.edu anass chraibi mohamed
aci...@nemesis.ece.ucsb.edu Baki Acikel
ad...@juno.com ada chan
ada...@yamb.ygaz.tyumen.su Adalat A. Adilov
Ada...@aol.com
Adem.K...@newcastle.ac.uk KAMALAK
Adem...@uibk.ac.at Adem Ugur
adem...@osf1.gmu.edu Alpaslan Demirkan
adn...@ibm.net Seapart
ad...@hilbert.cdsp.neu.edu Adnan Sahin
ado...@engin.umich.edu Atilla Dogan
advi...@rorqual.cc.metu.edu.tr Vasif
advi...@rorqual.cc.metu.edu.tr murat bicer
ae...@columbia.edu hydara
ael...@topaz.geology.utoledo.edu Abeer El-Gharbawy
a...@netcom.ca A.F.K
afp...@bangor.ac.uk M.Saatci
afp...@bangor.ac.uk Z.Ulutas
agay...@boun.edu.tr anonymous
age...@eos.ncsu.edu Ahmet G Erlat
ah...@columbia.edu Azrul
ah...@lucent.com
aha...@clyde.ICS.UCI.EDU Asad Imtiaz Hamid
AHARR...@TrentU.ca A.L. HARRINGTON
ahi...@iskcon.baku.az Ahinsra (das) HKS
ah...@src.gla.ac.uk Ahmed Abdel-Hady
Ahmet....@newcastle.ac.uk AHMET
ah...@gubim.bim.gantep.edu.tr
ah...@myself.com Pleasure
ah...@okstate.edu AHMET M CITIPITIOGLU
ahm...@worldonline.nl Ahmet Polat
ah...@aber.ac.uk ABID HUSSAIN SARWAR
ai...@freenet.carleton.ca Reid Cooper
a...@artnet.net ai
a...@journal.baku.az ??
air...@magnus.acs.ohio-state.edu Ahmet Irvem
ai...@dcacs.ab.az Ayten Ali-zadeh
aj...@columbia.edu Azra Jaferi
aju...@mbhs.edu Ahsen Uppal
akab...@prizma.net.tr Avni Dogan Kabakoz
aka...@nersp.nerdc.ufl.edu Mehmet Akansel
aka...@globe.ece.utexas.edu Adnan Kavak
aka...@cs.umbc.edu Alp Kayabasi
akb...@ecn.purdue.edu Mehmetcan Akbulut
ak...@andrew.cmu.edu Yuksel Akca
akde...@Mercer.PeachNet.EDU
ak...@eecis.udel.edu Yusuf Sinan Akgul
ak...@dolphin.upenn.edu Mehmet Ali Akgun
akgu...@pilot.msu.edu sait
akh...@ee.eng.ohio-state.edu Siraj Akhtar
akh...@jhu.edu Waseem Akhtar
Akhun...@BAKUWPOA.us-state.gov Akhundzade, Adil S
ak...@birch.ee.vt.edu Akin Kaldiroglu
ak...@emp.pdx.edu Akin Uslu
akin...@pilot.msu.edu Darcin Akin
aki...@cs.umd.edu
akin...@mech.ubc.ca Ayhan Akinturk
Akkoc.N...@med3.med.uni-erlangen.de Telephone 09131$/85-
akoc...@fiu.edu ali kocyigit
akp...@Bilkent.EDU.TR Kursad Urungu Akpinar
akp...@gl.umbc.edu Kursad Akpinar
ak...@cv.jinr.dubna.su Artukov Akram
AK...@fs1.ed.man.ac.uk Sahin Aksoy
ak...@gubim.bim.gantep.edu.tr
ak...@maxwell.ee.washington.edu Selim Aksoy
akt...@chip.cba.ufl.edu AKTAS ELVAN
akt...@seas.smu.edu Tevfik Aktuglu
akun...@gsu.edu A. Aydin Kunutku
al...@freenet.carleton.ca Francine.Pellerin
ala...@ee.bilkent.edu.tr Aydin Alatan
albay...@osu.edu Nedim Albayrak
al...@ug.bcc.bilkent.edu.tr Ali Alci
al...@signal.biosci.ohio-state.edu Alex
al...@yamb.ygaz.tyumen.su Alexander Nik Nechvalenko
alexande...@nyapps01.gsam.gs.com Alexander Musayev
ale...@lisitsa.botik.ru Alexei P. Lisitsa
alg...@ts.umu.se Anna Joelsson
Ali.Z...@univ-savoie.fr Ali Zogheib
a...@iastate.edu Ali Demirci
a...@netvigator.com MOHAMMED ALI
al...@eaps.sussex.ac..uk Ali Fuat Boz (DPA)
ali...@bp.com Alieva, Gunshan
alik...@prairienet.org Ali
al...@sinol.ru Alim G.Gadjiev
alim...@prip.tuwien.ac.at Fevzi Alimoglu
ali...@alpha.fdu.edu Azer Alizade
al...@tipfak.ege.edu.tr =?ISO-8859-1?Q?A.Y=EClmaz_Kahya_ogr.?=
al...@phys.psu.edu Almaz Kuliev
a...@WPI.EDU Baturalp R Arslan
al...@ece.orst.edu Mehmet Alpay
al...@jhunix.hcf.jhu.edu Savas Alpay
alpd...@cs.man.ac.uk M94
alta...@pilot.msu.edu Serdar Altan
ALTI...@MSU.EDU Zeynep.Altinsel
alti...@andrew.cmu.edu Hakan Altintas
al...@rnd.netas.com.tr Altug Ugrasiz
alu...@magnus.acs.ohio-state.edu Alex
am...@cornell.edu Araz Mekhtiev
amak...@lynx.dac.neu.edu alexander makhanko
aman...@vub.ac.be Anthony Antoine
am...@erols.com Ameen Shokouri
AMEK...@clarku.edu A.N.M.
ame...@indiana.edu Abdullah Menzek
ame...@indiana.edu anthony menzel
am...@iskcon.baku.az Ameya (das) HKS (Temple Prezident)
a...@umcc.umcc.umich.edu Abdullah Haydar
amir...@indiana.edu alfiya mirzagalamova
am...@columbia.edu Al Mahmud Shahjahan
amt...@ucdavis.edu Atac Tuli
an...@pop.erols.com an...@erols.com
and...@antenna.pe.titech.ac.jp Andrey Andrenko
an...@nusun.jinr.dubna.su Andro Kacharava
an...@jhunix.hcf.jhu.edu An
an...@rpi.edu Osman Murat Anli
anna.v....@vanderbilt.edu Ivanova, Anna V.
an...@cornell.edu Aman Siddiqi
ant...@mbox.vol.it Antonio Ammazzagatti
an...@dem.baku.az Anton E. Degtyarev
antti...@joyl.joensuu.fi Esa Anttikoski
anw...@ee.ubc.ca anwar a. elfeitori
aoksu...@GY.HUMBER.AC.UK ABDULLAM OKSUZ
AOS...@UOFT02.UTOLEDO.EDU
aoz...@gubim.bim.gantep.edu.tr
aoz...@du.edu AHMET OZTURK
APL...@UOFT02.UTOLEDO.EDU
ap...@south-01.novell.leeds.ac.uk A. SAHIN
ar...@scf-fs.usc.edu OZ
ar...@VNET.IBM.COM Caglan M. "Chalan" Aras, Ph.D.
ar...@doe.carleton.ca Unknown
arb...@neuron.ato.org.tr Mehmet Arbatli
ar...@xs4all.nl Atilla Arda
argo...@interlog.com Artchil Gogava
ar...@t-online.de arico
ari...@taronga.com Stephanie da Silva
ar...@gubim.bim.gantep.edu.tr
ar...@newg.baku.az Arif A. Aliev
ar...@me.umn.edu Mehmet Arik
arm...@info.tobb.org.tr Oguz Armagan
ars...@rohan.sdsu.edu arslan
arz...@Bilkent.EDU.TR Arzdar Kiraci
as...@rex.lib.uci.edu Asad Hamid
as...@pearsonsgi.CHEM.CWRU.Edu Asaf Alimardanov
asa...@Bilkent.EDU.TR Aziz Ibrahim Saglam
asa...@libra.fen.bilkent.edu.tr Ararat Sahin
asar...@pilot.msu.edu Yakup Asarkaya
ase...@cs.umbc.edu Ali Aydin Selcuk
as...@scf-fs.usc.edu Alper Sen
ase...@osf1.gmu.edu Alper Sevdik
as...@mao.baku.az Asim O.Madatov
ask...@meceng.coe.neu.edu Askiner Gungor
asla...@bp.com Aslanova, Minara
asl...@loochi.BPA.Arizona.EDU Aslihan Celik
as...@columbia.edu Aisha Sarah Shaheen
ASU...@UOFT02.UTOLEDO.EDU
asy...@bmsrs.usc.edu Musa Hakan Asyali
atab...@tfd.chalmers.se
atam...@akula.isye.gatech.edu Alper Atamturk
atas...@dds.nl eglence atasever
at...@riker.cc.rochester.edu Atila Abdulkadiroglu
at...@watt.seas.virginia.edu Alper Tunga Celen
at...@liverpool.ac.uk Mr H. Ates
at...@rnd.netas.com.tr Ates Erim
ates...@rorqual.cc.metu.edu.tr selcuk yusuf ateskan
at...@ube.ege.edu.tr Mustafa Atici
ati...@info.tobb.org.tr Atilla ASCIOGLU
atk...@andrew.cmu.edu Hatice Dilek Aktim
AT...@ZIAVMS.ENMU.EDU
atu...@cs.vu.nl Tuncer A
atu...@rorqual.cc.metu.edu.tr aysun tuncer
au...@rorqual.cc.metu.edu.tr Alper
av...@rpi.edu Ibrahim Avci
av...@ms.ganja.az AVIA
axd...@utarlg.uta.edu
axe...@ibm.net Axel
ax...@po.cwru.edu
ax...@po.CWRU.Edu Ahmet Kucukkomurler
ay...@andrew.cmu.edu Aytac Yenal
Ay...@extima.baku.az Ayaz E. Kerimov
ay...@alpha.fdu.edu Vedat Aybar
AYD...@SSCL.UWO.CA
ay...@grove.ufl.EDU Aydin Guzeloglu
ayd...@neuron.ato.org.tr =?ISO-8859-9?Q?G=FCrkan_Ayd=B9n?=
ayd...@studm.hrz.uni-siegen.de ayd...@studm.hrz.uni-siegen.de
ay...@aber.ac.uk AYKUT GULEREN
ay...@MIT.EDU
ay...@new-net.com Berkay Aygun
ay...@cco.caltech.edu
ayi...@mail.usyd.edu.au Atilla Yilmaz
ayk...@umich.edu Aykhan Asadov
ayp...@ctrvax.Vanderbilt.Edu
ayr...@ee.bilkent.edu.tr Birsel Ayrulu
AY...@triyte.iyte.edu.tr Sitki Aytac
ayte...@pilot.msu.edu Nimet Alpay
ayyi...@osf03.bim.ktu.edu.tr Hasan Ayyildiz
az...@oguzm.baku.az Azer Hagiev
az...@sissa.it Azer Akhmedov
aze...@enteract.com azerweb
a...@msfh.baku.az MSF Holland
AZ...@lan.ab.az
b.s...@lancaster.ac.uk BULEND SENAY
B.Szaj...@exeter.ac.uk Bogdan Szajkowski@cen
b951...@bey.cc.hun.edu.tr Yalcin GUNDOGDU
b951...@bey.cc.hun.edu.tr Erhan TAMER
babak....@ncsn.net Babak Kheshti
bab...@anasa.baku.az Elchin S. Babayev
B...@UBTG.CIS.CG.AC.YU S.Backovic,(081)14483/14484
ba...@ncat.edu Jalal Baghdadchi
bag...@sunhe.jinr.dubna.su Bagirov Adil
bagu...@scf-fs.usc..edu Adil
Bahad...@aol.com
bah...@lucent.com
bah...@rnd.netas.com.tr Bahri Okuroglu
baht...@tmep.baku.az Bahtiyar G. Kerimov
bair...@bahish.ioffe.rssi.ru Bahish H. Bairamov
bakb...@meceng.coe.neu.edu Burak A. Akbulut
bal...@okstate.edu KARLYGASH Z BALAPANOVA
ba...@ispro.net.tr Murat Balci
bal...@CCIT.ARIZONA.EDU haluk balkan
bal...@top.cis.syr.edu Ozgur Balsoy
Baniha...@newcastle.ac.uk B.GUNAY
ba...@rorqual.cc.metu.edu.tr Barat Nuriyev
bar...@busadm.cba.hawaii.edu James Marsh
ba...@Bilkent.EDU.TR Erdem Basci
bas...@slater.kuicr.kyoto-u.ac.jp RHS Linux User
baths...@earthlink.net Christi Lynn Garcia
ba...@wicklow.baku.az Alum Bati
ba...@tel-soft.com Batu Erimez
bayt...@scf-fs.usc.edu baytekin
bba...@faraday.com bbakal
bbeu...@indiana.edu brian beutter
bboz...@bock.ucs.ualberta.ca Burcin Bozkaya
b...@mhv.net Glenn Knickerbocker
bc...@dayhoff.med.virginia.edu Bekir Cinar
bc...@freenet.carleton.ca Hayder Amoghli
behb...@boun.edu.tr Fuad Behbud
beh...@irchq.baku.az Behnam Roohi
bekci...@osu.edu Bulent Bekcioglu
Belete.Mu...@VM1.CC.UAKRON.EDU
be...@meceng.coe.neu.edu Murat Belge
bell...@osu.edu Charles Bell
ben...@engin.umich.edu Alp Muharremoglu
be...@s4a.tokai.jaeri.go.jp Benan BASOGLU
ber...@bp.com Bergh, Einar (Statoil)
be...@kanald.com.tr Berk OZEN
be...@U.Arizona.EDU Betil Eroz
Beth...@aol.com
bey...@studbox.uni-stuttgart.de
bf2...@binghamton.edu
bf2...@binghamton.edu
bice...@dow.com Jozef Bicerano
b...@bif.baku.az Benevolence International Foundation_Baku_AZ
BIL...@VM.EGE.EDU.TR SErhan
bil...@ece.arizona.edu Ali Bilgin
bil...@praetor.usc.edu Robert Biller
biok...@merkurius.lu.se Fikret Mamedov
biok...@merkurius.lu.se Rena Gadjieva
biy...@ee.bilkent.edu.tr Necmi Biyikli
bkay...@mailbox.syr.edu bk
bki...@iris.com.tr E.B.K.
bla...@worldbank.org Bjorn Larsen
bm37...@muenchen.org Uenal Mutlu
b...@netmcr.com Bo Jiang
bo...@sprynet.com Pelin - Bahri Bora Bali
bour...@ecn.purdue.edu Moez M Bouraoui
bov...@CLI.DI.Unipi.IT Bove E. Luca
Bo...@bp.com Bown, Jim
bre...@cc.umanitoba.ca BR
b...@condor.sccs.swarthmore.edu Brian O'Connell
br...@riker.cc.rochester.edu Bahar Leventoglu
br...@kenosis.com Bruce Baugh
bru...@santafe.baku.az Paul Bruton
BSK...@stud.aubg.bg Bate Bobby
btha...@VNET.IBM.COM
bu...@universe.digex.net
bu...@gubim.bim.gantep.edu.tr
BUL...@mothra.ttc.toyota.co.jp Emre Bulbul
bul...@tel-soft.com Bulent Nuri Askar
bu...@engin.umich.edu Burak Ozdoganlar
bu...@new-net.com Burak Ertas
bu...@Phys.UAlberta.CA Michael Burianyk
bu...@yoyo.cc.monash.edu.au Nalan Aydogan
buyu...@pilot.msu.edu Bulent Buyukbozkirli
buyu...@hamlin.cc.boun.edu.tr Hakki Buyukkahraman
bwl0...@wipool.wifo.uni-mannheim.de DENIZ AKSEN
bxb...@psu.edu
bysa...@FDUSVRT1.FDU.EDU Shankar Bysani
C.Gu...@pch.salford.ac.uk
c06...@orca.cc.metu.edu.tr pervin katmer
c06...@orca.cc.metu.edu.tr Ali Caglayan
c58...@showme.missouri.edu Tim Argie
c61...@showme.missouri.edu Bit Vo
c62...@showme.missouri.edu Bryan Seymour
c64...@showme.missouri.edu Jason Stanton
c66...@showme.missouri.edu Dan Gorden
c66...@showme.missouri.edu Todd Seymour
c66...@showme.missouri.edu Da_mAn!!!
c68...@showme.missouri.edu
c69...@showme.missouri.edu Robin Gold
c69...@showme.missouri.edu Ali Cadirci
c70...@showme.missouri.edu Zeynep Kayankulak
c70...@showme.missouri.edu Azer Kurbanov
c70...@showme.missouri.edu Aleksander Souprunets
c70...@showme.missouri.edu shoe!
c70...@showme.missouri.edu Alexey Gorislavsky
caf...@brain.uccs.edu Christopher A. Yrysbek Fitch
cagl...@boun.edu.tr M. Ufuk Caglayan
c...@kku.edu.tr Serkan Cak
cak...@osu.edu Yavuz Cakir
cal...@alpha.fdu.edu Gustavo Caldera
cal...@calshp.cals.wisc.edu Mehmet Calicioglu
cali...@usc.edu Cenk CALISKAN
c...@gubim.bim.gantep.edu.tr
c...@jamesm.bu.edu Mehmet Deniz
ca...@ece.stevens-tech.edu Mentor Cana
ca...@rpi.edu Ali Can
can...@ee.bilkent.edu.tr Cagatay Candan
can...@coe.neu.edu Olcay E. Canyurt
cao...@ncat.edu Cao Xin
ca...@galjas.cs.vu.nl Arik C
Carolyn....@Colorado.EDU McCarthy Carolyn
ca...@grove.ufl.EDU Bulent CATAY
CATN...@aol.com
cay...@nortel.ca Can Aysan
CBAS...@ku.edu.tr CELILE ESRA BASERAS
cbr...@lynx.dac.neu.edu Carlos Brussa
cbs...@phoenix.Princeton.EDU Christopher B. Stone
CCA...@CLEMSON.EDU
ccd...@WEST-01.NOVELL.LEEDS.AC.UK Reza
ccfa...@showme.missouri.edu Farzad W
cdu...@stellar.osshe.edu Chris Duncan
cel...@fmrisc.bc.edu Metin Celebi -->cel...@fmrisc.bc.edu
cel...@mtm3.mt.lucent.com Samel Celebi
Cemil....@informatik.fh-fulda.de Cemil Ceyhan
Cen...@aol.com
cen...@cs.umd.edu
cen...@rnd.netas.com.tr Cengiz GENCER
ce...@mam.gov.tr Seval Cenk
ces...@chaos.bme.ohio-state.edu Erdogan Cesmeli
Cevdet...@Bristol.ac.uk C. Demir
cey...@rnd.netas.com.tr Ceyhun ATACAN
cey...@rnd.netas.com.tr Ceyhun SAVAS
cey...@dpesp2.radsci.uci.edu Timur Ceylan
CF...@UOFT02.UTOLEDO.EDU
cgo...@uoft02.utoledo.edu Can Gokceatam
chau...@students.wisc.edu chaudhri rauf abdul
che...@hotmail.com ergun ergudenler
chep...@sunse.jinr.dubna.su Cheplakov A.P.
che...@ozemail.com.au chetin
ch...@algonet.se Christina Hallback
chi...@lynx.dac.neu.edu cem hincal
CHL...@vms.cis.pitt.edu
ch...@savechildren.org.az Chris Szpak
chr...@spot.Colorado.EDU CHRISTENSEN AMY
cic...@ix.netcom.com Chuck Hall
cic_l...@netinfo.com.au CIC Library
cif...@pisces.fen.bilkent.edu.tr Erkan Ziya Ciftlikli
Cigdem...@nessie.mcc.ac.uk Cigdem Balim
cim...@WPI.EDU Cemil Tolun
CI...@Neptune.Syr.Edu Can Isik
ci...@ug.bcc.bilkent.edu.tr Cagatay Isiksungur
ckul...@nbcs.rutgers.edu Cosar Kulaksiz
clu...@UOFT02.UTOLEDO.EDU
cmam...@indiana.edu chingiz mamedov
cm...@cis.um.edu.mt C.Meli
co...@kku.edu.tr Erhan Cokal
com...@euch6i.chem.emory.edu
co...@gradient.cis.upenn.edu Ali COPLU
COQ...@sheffield.ac.uk I.Eminoglu
cor...@omri.cz Elena Corti
cos...@bornova.ege.edu.tr Z. Evsen Coskun
CR...@UOFT02.UTOLEDO.EDU
c...@tel-soft.com CR Coordinator
cres...@crescent.dartmouth.edu Cenk Ergan
cs61...@caddo.CS.Berkeley.EDU Amina Inloes
cs94...@red.ariel.cs.yorku.ca Ahmed Siddiqui
cu...@gubim.bim.gantep.edu.tr
Cuneyt....@raksnet.com.tr Cuneyt Turksen
cun...@rnd.netas.com.tr Cuneyt Kaynar
cy...@cornell.edu
c...@cc.bellcore.com
d031...@dcfreenet.seflin.lib.fl.us
da...@msses.co.ru Araz Mamedov
dalk...@bornova.ege.edu.tr M. Emin Dalkilic
dami...@osu.edu Fuad Damirov
dane...@indiana.edu shahyar daneshgar
daniel....@infoboard.be Daniel Rybowski
dan...@sky.net Danny Porter
dan...@osf01.ktu.edu.tr Danyal Mehmetoglu (mat)
DASDAG%TRD...@vm.ege.edu.tr
das...@cs.uiuc.edu dasdan ali
da...@gba.baku.az Dave Churchmen
dbab...@advtech.uswest.com Djangir Babayev
dca...@mailhost.ecn.uoknor.edu
DDR...@UOFT02.UTOLEDO.EDU
ddru...@ecolan.sbs.ohio-state.edu Dmitriy Druzhinin
ddut...@kaus.usc.edu Derek Dutcher
de...@cs.umd.edu Demet Aksoy
de...@econ.lsa.umich.edu Ufuk Demiroglu
de...@gubim.bim.gantep.edu.tr
dem...@rpi.edu Ayhan Demiriz
demi...@mam.gov.tr Fehmi Demiralp
dem...@nersp.nerdc.ufl.edu HHP
DEMIR...@fh-nuertingen.de NESE DEMIRKAYA
dem...@rpi.edu Mehmet Demiroglu
DEMIRTAS%TRDICLE...@vm.ege.edu.tr
demi...@gubim.bim.gantep.edu.tr Omer Can
demi...@boun.edu.tr Ayse Demirtepe
Deniz...@tigerfund.com
de...@castor.usc.edu Tim
de...@elk.itu.edu.tr Ahmet Derya Kocabas
dev...@Tef.Gazi.Edu.TR Devrim SERAL
dff...@is4.nyu.edu Dalia F. Fahmy
dfla...@daemen.edu Dawne M. Flammger
DFU...@aua.am D. Fuller
dgo...@fieldsvc1.camco.com Didem K. Gokce
dhi...@library.ucla.edu DAVID G HIRSCH
dho...@indiana.edu D. Jay Hoffman
dho...@scf-fs.usc.edu dholmes
di...@cise.ufl.edu Didem Gokcay
dil...@ug.bcc.bilkent.edu.tr Dilsad Ulku Akpinar
Dimitr...@msn.com Dimitri Popov
Dina....@p10.f17.n5051.z2.fidonet.org Dina Alieva
din...@npac.syr.edu Kivanc Dincer
din...@tel-soft.com Dinemis Kozok
ditt...@osu.edu Edward P Dittmer
dk...@osf1.gmu.edu Deniz Kose
do...@spica.usc.edu D. Doan
dob...@usia.gov Dobson, Richard
DOCQ...@aol.com
doc...@jhunix.hcf.jhu.edu Kutbuddin S Doctor
doga...@idol.union.edu Murat Doganaksoy
dog...@emp.pdx.edu E. Dogus Kuran
do...@neuron.ato.org.tr Deniz & Temel & Alp OPUZ
do...@alpha.fdu.edu Manish R. Doshi
DOZ...@CLEMSON.EDU
dpin...@indiana.edu David Pinzino
drap...@top.eng.utoledo.edu Daniil Rapoport
DS...@UOFT02.UTOLEDO.EDU
dsc...@panther.Gsu.EDU Rustam Vahidov
dst...@soros.baku.az David Stubbs
du...@hilbert.cdsp.neu.edu Tolga M. Duman
dum...@indiana.edu Duncan Marsh
durd...@sas.upenn.edu Turgut Durduran
dur...@cnet-nuisance.com DuRmUsH
dw...@glo.be
dyag...@osf1.gmu.edu Dimo
E.Ca...@sheffield.ac.uk E.Candan
E.Karlo...@uea.ac.uk Environmental Magnetism Lab (ENV)
e06...@orca.cc.metu.edu.tr omer aycicek
e06...@turkiye.cc.metu.edu.tr delikanli olcay
e06...@orca.cc.metu.edu.tr hasan songul
e07...@orca.cc.metu.edu.tr umut akon
e07...@orca.cc.metu.edu.tr yavuz selim seckin
e07...@wasp.bio.metu.edu.tr YILDIRAY LiSE
e07...@orca.cc.metu.edu.tr fatih kavlak
e07...@orca.cc.metu.edu.tr Ahmet CAKIR
e07...@orca.cc.metu.edu.tr fatih cagri dogan
e07...@narwhal.cc.metu.edu.tr Samir Musayev
e07...@orca.cc.metu.edu.tr svante erik cornell
e07...@orca.cc.metu.edu.tr Alparslan Turkoz
e07...@orca.cc.metu.edu.tr serkan ozturk
e07...@orca.cc.metu.edu.tr kemal parlar
e07...@orca.cc.metu.edu.tr Eldar
e07...@orca.cc.metu.edu.tr Mansur
e07...@orca.cc.metu.edu.tr Afiz Aliyev
e10...@orca.cc.metu.edu.tr ruslan askerov
e10...@orca.cc.metu.edu.tr seimmour ibraguimov
e10...@cc.metu.edu.tr ahmet coskun yildirim
e10...@mako.cc.metu.edu.tr Mehmet Muzaffer TAMUR
e10...@orca.cc.metu.edu.tr asli firat
e10...@orca.cc.metu.edu.tr tumay yavrucuk
e10...@orca.cc.metu.edu.tr murat akin
e10...@orca.cc.metu.edu.tr ulas ceran
e10...@orca.cc.metu.edu.tr pelin gokcek
e10...@orca.cc.metu.edu.tr baris temiz
e10...@orca.cc.metu.edu.tr sebnem udum
e10...@orca.cc.metu.edu.tr basak yemenici
e10...@orca.cc.metu.edu.tr can yildiz
e106...@ceng.metu.edu.tr KORKMAZ NIZAMETTIN
e10...@orca.cc.metu.edu.tr zafer yener cehiz
e10...@orca.cc.metu.edu.tr masya
e10...@orca.cc.metu.edu.tr King
e10...@orca.cc.metu.edu.tr Vor
e10...@orca.cc.metu.edu.tr Olga
e10...@orca.cc.metu.edu.tr sahin ozsoy
e10...@orca.cc.metu.edu.tr Emre Saraoglu
e10...@orca.cc.metu.edu.tr mustafa karabas
e10...@orca.cc.metu.edu.tr omer firat varli
e952...@student.tuwien.ac.at Alpaslan
ea...@space.ru Erkan
eakh...@garnet.acns.fsu.edu Elshan A.Akhadov
eas...@scf-fs.usc.edu Elcin Asyali
ebo...@tiger.lsuiss.ocs.lsu.edu Ercan Bozkurt
ece...@buphy.bu.edu
ed...@ssa.bris.ac.uk A. Varli
ede...@rorqual.cc.metu.edu.tr ersin deger
ed...@ssa.bris.ac.uk M.N.Kayaoglu
eeg...@NMSU.Edu E. EGEMEN
een...@electeng.leeds.ac.uk AKYOL.A.S
eex...@unix.ccc.nottingham.ac.uk H Altun
efen...@math.fu-berlin.de Messoud Efendiev
EG4E...@sheffield.ac.uk FISUN YUKSEL
e...@gubim.bim.gantep.edu.tr
e...@rnd.netas.com.tr Ege ORER
ego...@essex.ac.uk E Gokgen
egu...@worldbank.org Yelda Guven
eg...@jhunix.hcf.jhu.edu Norann Zaghloul
ekar...@indiana.edu Ergash M. Karshiev
ek...@nortel.ca Erdem Kaya
ek...@scf-fs.usc.edu MME
ek...@ug.bcc.bilkent.edu.tr Baris Eker
eki...@cs.bris.ac.uk M. Ekinci
eki...@studm.hrz.uni-siegen.de ekinci
ekm...@scf-fs.usc.edu Emre Ekmekci
ek...@osf1.gmu.edu ELLEN M. KOHN
ekre...@lynx.dac.neu.edu Emil Kreymer
el...@bu.edu elcin okyay
el...@hrcenter.baku.az Eldar E. Zeynalov
el...@ibm.net Eldar Musayev
eld...@rpi.edu Fahrettin Eldemir
el...@leonis.nus.sg Uysal Sener
els...@surf0.martech.fsu.edu Seymour Akhadov
emar...@worldbank.org Eugenia Marinova
em...@Flipper.Bitav.Org.TR Emin YAKAR
em...@voicenet.com Emin
em...@yalova.srdc.metu.edu.tr Emin Turanalp
Emre_E...@ccmail.bus.umich.edu Emre Ergungor
ENF...@aol.com
en...@ug.bcc.bilkent.edu.tr Esra Demirelli
en...@troi.cc.rochester.edu Emin Murat Dinlersoz
en...@bath.ac.uk H Karabay
en...@bath.ac.uk yilmaz
en...@mam.gov.tr Enver Sadikhov
en...@medinfo1.kuhp.kyoto-u.ac.jp
EOL...@LSUVM.SNCC.LSU.EDU Kenan Lopcu
eracar...@ATB.Teradyne.COM Yonet Eracar
erak...@indiana.edu Edward Rustamovyc Rakhimkulov
er...@seas.smu.edu Cengiz Erbas
er...@ee.bilkent.edu.tr Ercan Solak
erce...@gubim.bim.gantep.edu.tr
erd...@tustp.pe.utulsa.edu ferhat metin erdal
erd...@public.cc.jl.cn
er...@psyberlink.net Erdem Gokturk
er...@luke.mskcc.org
er...@expert.cc.purdue.edu Yusuf Erdil
er...@fen.bilkent.edu.tr Aytek Erdil
erd...@eecs.umich.edu Hakan Erdogan
erge...@hardees.rutgers.edu Ufuk Ergener
Ergin.K...@newcastle.ac.uk Ergin.Kariptas
Ergun...@ping.be Ergun Aydin
er...@vcn.bc.ca Ergun Erg
er...@viz.tamu.edu Ergun Akleman
erg...@rpi.edu Celaletdin Ergun
eric...@indiana.edu eric christopher martin
er...@geo.purdue.edu Erkan Ay
ero...@gubim.bim.gantep.edu.tr
erog...@osu.edu Mehmet Erogul
er...@alpha.fdu.edu Mustafa Erol
er...@neosoft.com Erol Keskin
er...@csv.warwick.ac.uk Mr V Sadal
ers...@usia.gov Stimpson, Ellen
er...@gwis2.circ.gwu.edu Ersel Aydinli
er...@ecn.purdue.edu Okan K Ersoy
ert...@isye.isye.gatech.edu Gurdal Ertek
ert...@er4.eng.ohio-state.edu Eniz Erten
ert...@gradient.cis.upenn.edu Osman Nuri Ertugay
ery...@rnd.netas.com.tr Cem Eryasar
eshe...@osshe.edu Ken Eshelby
es...@loki.Stanford.EDU esin terzioglu
esk...@ecn.purdue.edu Erdem Eskigun
es...@yore.com.tr Esra ESEN
EST...@foodsci.purdue.edu Okan Esturk
es...@columbia.edu Emmi Shahrezad Zainorashid
eta...@physics.purdue.edu Enver Tarhan
eug...@dem.baku.az Eugene Degtyarev
eur...@earthlink.net Eurasia Research Center
Evrend...@osu.edu Fatih Evrendilek
ex...@po.cwru.edu Erdogan Dogdu
ex...@chamber.baku.az Chamber of Commerce and Industry
ex...@po.CWRU.Edu Elke Schoffers
eyi...@grove.ufl.EDU Serdar Eyigun
eyu...@neuron.ato.org.tr Dr. A. Eftal Yucel
eze...@umr.edu Ezerhan Kadioglu
ezh...@garnet.acns.fsu.edu EMIN Z HUSEYNOV
F45E033%SAKSU00...@VTBIT.CC.VT.EDU Dr. A. Y. Al-Mazroo
f...@fa.az
faa...@cs.usask.ca Fatih Sultan Ayalp
fa...@inforamp.net fahim
fa...@dumlupinar.rbim.metu.edu.tr Fahrettin SIRIN
fai...@openix.com Faiz Mian
fa...@infi.net Farid H. Miandoab
far...@ncw.net
far...@ncat.edu Muhammed D. Farooqi
fa...@nortel.ca Faruk Hadziomerovic
FAT...@BAKUWPOA.us-state.gov Aslanova, Fatima
Fazil...@science.ankara.edu.tr Fazil Aliev
FB...@aol.com
fdam...@checkfree.com Frank Damirov
fdo...@math.utoledo.edu Filiz Dogru
FENBIY%TRD...@vm.ege.edu.tr
FENFIZ%TRD...@vm.ege.edu.tr
fer...@rorqual.cc.metu.edu.tr feramuz atak
fe...@jhu.edu Feras Mousilli
FEREIDOUN_...@HP-PaloAlto-om8.om.hp.com
fer...@ug.bcc.bilkent.edu.tr Hakan Ferhatosmanoglu
fe...@andrew.cmu.edu Feyzullah Egriboyun
fi...@columbia.edu Faisal Iqbal Chaudhry
fic...@gn.apc.org WriteNet
fig...@thepoint.net Bryan Aja
fik...@mam.gov.tr Fikret HACIYEV
fin...@cnde.iastate.edu Feyzi Inanc
finn...@bp.com Finnvik, Harald (Statoil)
fk...@uow.edu.au Faris Kasim Mahmood
f...@who.baku.az Farman M. Abdullayev
fn...@aurora.alaska.edu D. Evans
for...@ecst.csuchico.edu Ramin Keshmiri
fran...@osshe.edu Randy Franklin
fsav...@ouray.cudenver.edu FATIH SAVASAN
fu...@snabk.ygaz.tyumen.su Fuad K. Gasanov
FuadS...@aol.com
fvak...@mailbox.syr.edu Farid V. Akhmedov
f...@ukc.ac.uk fy1
fya...@postbox.acs.ohio-state.edu Fehmi Yazici
fyk...@icaen.uiowa.edu
fyus...@umich.edu Farage Yusupov
g.ki...@ic.ac.uk
g94...@DPC.KFUPM.EDU.SA Mohammed Aleem
ga...@virginia.edu Gursel Ates
gadi...@bp.com Gadiyeva, Jamilya
gak...@magnus.acs.ohio-state.edu Gulsun Akdemir
ga...@soros.baku.az Galib Efendiev
ga...@iastate.edu Galip KUYUK
ga...@irchq.baku.az Gary Hopf
ga...@er4.eng.ohio-state.edu Veysel Gazi
gboz...@jhunix.hcf.jhu.edu Kamil Bozkurt
gc...@solar.rtd.utk.edu Greg Cole
gemr...@ix.netcom.com Justin Long
genc...@tao.sosc.osshe.edu genc1574
ge...@elk.itu.edu.tr M. Istemihan Genc
ge...@gubim.bim.gantep.edu.tr
ge...@mam.gov.tr Deniz Genez
ger...@ku.edu.tr GOZDE ERHAN
gga...@gsief.sachar.brandeis.edu Gaibov, Gamid
g...@wolves.durham.nc.us Gregory G. Woodbury
gha...@service1.uky.edu Khaled
gh...@voicenet.com ghcox
gjk...@lucent.com
g...@nova.eng.wayne.edu Gurkan Ozden
go...@sunse.jinr.dubna.su George Gogiberidze x64641
g...@cs.bilkent.edu.tr H. Gokmen Gok
gok...@u.washington.edu Hurriyet Gokdayi
gok...@ufuk.lab.akdeniz.edu.tr Gokhan Akkoyunlu
gokh...@khi.co.jp Gokhan Goktug
Gol...@cardiff.ac.uk CEVDET GOLOGLU
go...@sunrise.alpinet.net Thomas Goltz
GOL...@vxjinr.jinr.ru
go...@bellcore.com Goksel Goncu
gou...@ncat.edu Ramasamy S. Gounder
go...@cs.bilkent.edu.tr Gokturk Ozer
gre...@spot.Colorado.EDU Green Sally
gs0...@panther.Gsu.EDU Bizant Sahin Okatan
gs0...@panther.Gsu.EDU Gursel Ilipinar
gs0...@panther.Gsu.EDU H.N.Guliyev
gs0...@panther.Gsu.EDU Mehmet Turker Oguz
gs0...@panther.Gsu.EDU Sanan Daianduz Ismailov
gs0...@panther.Gsu.EDU Afagh S Fazlollahi
Gsi...@aol.com
gt1...@prism.gatech.edu Murat Guler
gt4...@prism.gatech.edu Bulent Nedim Alemdar
gt7...@prism.gatech.edu CIMTALAY,SELCUK
gt...@internet-australia.com Gulay Teoman
gu...@newton.physics.metu.edu.tr Hasan Guclu
gulf...@boun.edu.tr Elif Gulfirat
GULIZ...@DOS.US-STATE.GOV Imre, Guliz NMN
gult...@hotmail.com Gultekin YILAN
gulu...@umich.edu Gokhan Uluderya
gun...@rpi.edu Omer Gundogdu
gu...@se.bel.alcatel.be Tahir Gun
gur...@econ.umd.edu Gurgur, Tugrul
gur...@koc.com.tr =?iso-8859-1?Q?G=FCrsu_G=FClc=FC?=
guv...@scf-fs.usc.edu Omer Guvener
GX...@jazz.ucc.uno.edu
H.A....@newcastle.ac.uk HUSEYiN A YALIM
H.C...@sussex.ac.uk Hakan Calis
h.ci...@ic.ac.uk
H.De...@herts.ac.uk Demirci
h.de...@ic.ac.uk Hasan Demirel
H.N...@sheffield.ac.uk H.Namli
H.Oz...@sheffield.ac.uk H.Ozguner
H.Tu...@sheffield.ac.uk Hasan Turkmen
h895...@asterix.wu-wien.ac.at Sevgul Bektas
ha...@omri.cz Silja Haas
Habib_A...@CENA.VOA.GOV
ha...@tel-soft.com Hadi Kahraman
hadj...@bp.com Hadjiyev, Azad
hah...@cs.usask.ca Haikel Hichri
haj...@cs.usask.ca Hadeeah Jamil
Hakan...@newcastle.ac.uk ASLAN
ha...@eecs.umich.edu Hakan Yalcin
ha...@radon.che.metu.edu.tr Huseyin Hakan Abaci
hak...@Bilkent.EDU.TR Hakan Aksoy
ha...@gte.com Arda Aksu
hak...@psy.vu.nl Hayriye Akyuz
ha...@compclup.ceng.metu.edu.tr Halil Erensu
Haluk...@science.ankara.edu.tr Haluk Mutlu
hal...@rnd.netas.com.tr Haluk Durmusoglu
ham...@kuniv.baku.az Hamlet Isaxanli
han...@knidos.cc.metu.edu.tr Hanifi Pertesoy
hao...@nmsu.edu H. Ahmet Ozkok
hap...@essex.ac.uk halil apaydin
har...@savechildren.org.az harriet
hasan-ed%mam.n...@mam.gov.tr Nasreddin BASHIROGLU(HASANOV)
Hasan.A...@tc.umn.edu hasan albasan
ha...@iuj.ac.jp Hasan T. Kosebalaban
hask...@er4.eng.ohio-state.edu Ibrahim Haskara
has...@alpha.fdu.edu Ahmet Haskose
has...@psnw.com Ayad Abu-Khamsin
Hayrull...@newcastle.ac.uk Hayrullah. Kose
ha...@iastate.edu Kaya CeTinKaYa
hcan...@magnus.acs.ohio-state.edu Halit Canatan
hdi...@soils.umn.edu Huseyin Dikici
he...@yorku.ca Levent Hekimoglu
he...@ai.botik.ru Elena Suleymanova
hel...@mam.gov.tr Selcuk Helhel
hgu...@ku.edu.tr Cagri Gurses
hh...@cleveland.Freenet.Edu James Baranovich
hhal...@engin.umich.edu Hasan Halkali
hil...@juno.com HILL R KAPLAN
h...@pop.wwa.com Henrietta Thomas
hm...@po.cwru.edu
hmng...@lynx.dac.neu.edu Hoa Nguyen
hod...@online.no S. H.
holl...@spot.Colorado.EDU Holland Steve
hozd...@NMSU.Edu H. OZDILEK
hra...@u.washington.edu Heather Ralph
hsp...@bath.ac.uk M A Sarili
hs...@bath.ac.uk FENERBAHCELi ve KAMANLI
htv...@bu.edu huseyin tanriverdi
hu...@lehigh.edu HUSEYIN AKILLI
hu...@amiga.montclair.edu H. M. Hubey
hu...@aber.ac.uk HUSEYIN DEMIR
hugu...@gmr.com H. Fatih Ugurdag
huma....@yale.edu Huma S Ulgen
hus...@itsq8.com AH
huse...@rorqual.cc.metu.edu.tr huseyin demirci
h...@leprosy.anu.edu.au Hafeez Muhammad
HYETIM%TRAT...@vm.ege.edu.tr Hasan
hyi...@ug.bcc.bilkent.edu.tr Huseyin Serkan Yildiz
hypo...@skat.usc.edu hypolite
I.Dem...@newcastle.ac.uk ibrahim Demirtas
I.Ho...@sheffield.ac.uk I.Horzum
iagi...@hilbert.cdsp.neu.edu Ismail Agirman
ia...@rnd.netas.com.tr Isin Alp
ib...@uni00po.unity.ncsu.edu Ibrahim Ban
ibo...@marlin.utmb.edu Inci Bowman
IBR...@ec.ele.tue.nl H.I.Sagir
ibr...@kanarya.engr.sgi.com Ibrahim Delibalta
ibr...@rnd.netas.com.tr Ibrahim Oral Emul
ibr...@ufuk.lab.akdeniz.edu.tr Ibrahim N. Torun
i...@lenz.eng.ohio-state.edu Ibrahim Tekin
igu...@lynx.dac.neu.edu Isa Guzel
ikal...@indiana.edu Imren Kalyuncu
ik...@yamb.ygaz.tyumen.su Igor F. Karachun
i...@AeMES.aero.ufl.edu Ibrahim K Ebcioglu
iki...@pine.shu.ac.uk izzet kilinc
iko...@ist1.co.umist.ac.uk
Il...@cardiff.ac.uk BOZOKLU
il...@sbs.ygaz.tyumen.su Ilham B. Namazov
Ilia.Ra...@cern.ch Ilia Ravinovich
il...@compclup.ceng.metu.edu.tr Ilker TEMIR
ima...@bp.com Imanov, Eldar
im...@ug.bcc.bilkent.edu.tr Imed Hamouda
in...@students.uiuc.edu mehmet inel
in...@ug.bcc.bilkent.edu.tr Tevfik Sinan Ingec
INY...@CC.ITU.EDU.TR Kemal YUCEL
io...@UOFT02.UTOLEDO.EDU
ip...@kawo2.rwth-aachen.de Talip Ipek
ipli...@boun.edu.tr Serdar Iplikci
irad...@kent.edu Irene Radchenko
ir...@eecis.udel.edu Sami Iren
ir...@elk.itu.edu.tr Tasdemir Asan
is...@nobelium.chem.ucl.ac.uk Isaev Mamed
is...@cse.fau.edu M. Yasar Iscan
is...@math.ohio-state.edu Irfan Siap
is...@elk.itu.edu.tr Isil Yenidogan
iska...@EESUN2.tamu.edu Alexandre Khalil
i...@ecst.csuchico.edu Ibragim Ismailov
ism...@mcrlab.mech.okayama-u.ac.jp ismail Altuncu
isma...@bp.com Ismaylova, Sabina
Ismihan....@science.ankara.edu.tr Ismihan Bayramov
isn...@state.me.us Nasir Shir
isyi...@indiana.edu Ismail Tolga Yilmaz
j&cma...@shelby.net Carol Marks
jabr...@bp.com Jabrailova, Aiten
jaha...@daewoo.baku.az Jahangir A. Ali-zadeh
ja...@euch4e.chem.emory.edu Jamal G. Musaev
ja...@dcacs.ab.az Jamil H. Hajiev
jand...@scf-fs.usc.edu jandrade
jay...@mail.utexas.edu Djeikhoun Bahadir Gousseinov
jbu...@uoft03.UTOLEDO.EDU FlI
jcol...@worldbank.org J.B. Collier
JDA...@clarku.edu Jef Davis, Int'l Students Office--x7362
jde...@new-europe.gr Jennifer Delay
jdi...@scf-fs.usc.edu jdileva
jdo...@euronet.nl James M. Dorsey
JEF...@DCACS.AB.AZ Jeffrey McCoy
je...@umiacs.umd.edu Suleyman Cenk Sahinalp
jh...@columbia.edu Jamila Hussain
JJH...@ritvax.isc.rit.edu
jkra...@swarthmore.edu Joshua Kramer
jlie...@indiana.edu Jon Liechty
jlp...@gamb.fdn.fr Jean-Louis Peyle
jm...@usa.net
JNI...@crs.loc.gov Jim Nichol
Jo...@eumersc.MHS.CompuServe.COM John Dean
jol...@netcom.com Joe Morris
jonf...@student.umu.se Jon Forsgren
jo...@dam.baku.az JANGIR DAMIROV
jo...@ic.uva.nl Joost Donker
jpar...@blue.weeg.uiowa.edu J. Parvizi
jpq...@engin.umich.edu Jonathan Paul Quint
jub...@mail.gld.com jubran
jul...@fwb.gulf.net Jules Dubois
jvan...@checkfree.com Jeff Vandegriff
jvpr...@ix.netcom.com Jyotsna V. Prabhu
jwh...@baroid.baku.az Jonathan White
jwit...@indiana.edu Jack Wittman
K...@PSUVM.PSU.EDU Erdener Kaynak
ka...@tel-soft.com Kaan Dandin
kab...@jhu.edu Nader S Kabbani
ka...@savechildren.org.az Lutful Kabir
kahr...@access.bel.alcatel.be ALIYE KAHRAMAN
K...@ccwf.cc.utexas.edu Khalid
kal...@cs.bilkent.edu.tr Ali Ayub M. Kalufya
kalyoncu%picasso.mam.t...@mam.gov.tr Hakan Kalyoncu
kam...@umich.edu kamran bajwa
ka...@ces.clemson.edu kamaal anas
ka...@ibm.net kanca
kand...@cs.umd.edu Eser Kandogan
kant...@cs.uiuc.edu Zeynep Kantarcioglu
kar...@uiuc.edu Ibrahim Karaman
ka...@central.fmi.fujitsu.com Karim Taher
ka...@ix.netcom.com Yo'av Karny
ka...@cqt.com
Kastr...@BAKUWPOA.us-state.gov Kastrulin, Victor
Kasu...@bp.com Kasumova, Gulshan
katherin...@ibid.library.gatech.edu
ka...@antenna.pe.titech.ac.jp Katerina Shepelska
ka...@iastate.edu kavak
ka...@scf-fs.usc.edu 'Halil Ibrahim KAVAK'
ka...@austin.ibm.com Kaveh Massoudian
kav...@gubim.bim.gantep.edu.tr
ka...@mam.gov.tr Huseyin Kaya
ka...@cs.bilkent.edu.tr Ersan Kayan
kayma...@biovax.dnet.basf-ag.de
kay...@fen.bilkent.edu.tr Gulcihan Kaynak
ka...@ACSU.Buffalo.EDU Osman Kazan
kbr...@acad.bryant.edu Kevin Brook
KCA...@UOFT02.UTOLEDO.EDU
kek...@kku.edu.tr Mucahit Keklikoglu
kel...@MIT.EDU
KEMAL....@student.kuleuven.ac.be KEMAL AYDEMIR
ke...@gubim.bim.gantep.edu.tr
ke...@tel-soft.com Kemal Atavi
ken...@u.washington.edu Kurt Engelmann
ke...@icem.baku.az Bahtiyar Kerimov
ker...@fen.bilkent.edu.tr Azer Kerimov
kes...@tel-soft.com Gurhan Keskin
kha...@okstate.edu KHAKIM SULTANOV
kha...@savechildren.org.az khalid
khal...@bp.com Khalilova, Sudaba
kh...@cs.nyu.edu Hasnain Khan
kha...@cig.mot.com Mohammad N. Khan
kha...@muss.CIS.McMaster.CA S. Khan
ki...@fen.bilkent.edu.tr Cetin Kilic
kili...@pilot.msu.edu Rehim Kilic
kin...@grove.ufl.EDU Serkan Kincal
kin...@bitstream.net Janet L. Poff
ki...@systems.caltech.edu Ahmet Kirac
Ki...@cardiff.ac.uk MURAT KISA
kiv...@utdallas.edu Onder Kivanc
kiz...@egr.msu.edu Ahmet KIZILAY
k...@help.ksc.net.th Kriengkrai Jirawongaram
kke...@eniac.seas.upenn.edu The Joker
kl...@yamb.ygaz.tyumen.su Klen
KMcN...@aol.com
k...@kars.ece.orst.edu Cetin Kaya Koc
ko...@ug.bcc.bilkent.edu.tr Kerem Kocaoglu
koks...@rorqual.cc.metu.edu.tr Murat Koksalan
koks...@osu.edu Sadi Koksoy
kok...@uoft02.utoledo.edu Kenan OKTAN
ko...@boun.edu.tr A. Bugra Koku
kop...@boun.edu.tr Deniz Koprulu
ko...@rorqual.cc.metu.edu.tr ayse ayata kora merk.
kor...@ee.bilkent.edu.tr Hakan Koroglu
ko...@cs.umd.edu
kotl...@students.uiuc.edu yulia a kotlyarova
koyu...@boun.edu.tr Miyase Koyuncu
kpe...@efes01.efes.net.tr
kqk...@is2.nyu.edu Khohoum Koulieva
ksa...@cs.ucsb.edu Kamil Sarac
kub...@rnd.netas.com.tr Kubilay Sahhuseyinoglu
kuc...@cs.man.ac.uk Bulent Kucuk
kucukmeh...@osu.edu mehmet kucukmehmetoglu
ku...@calshp.cals.wisc.edu
kur...@knidos.cc.metu.edu.tr Kursat Cagiltay
ku...@alpha.CES.CWRU.Edu Atakan Kurt
KUSC...@BRAHMS.BIOSCI.ARIZONA.EDU
ku...@ee.bilkent.edu.tr M. Alper Kutay
kut...@ebiri.baku.az Kutlay Ebiri
kut...@ccl.umist.ac.uk Kutluk Ozguven
kverenck...@osu.edu Levan Kverenckiladze
k...@iardi.baku.az Karmit Zysman
L.KO...@link-r.de Lothar Kordus
laci...@egr.msu.edu Figen Lacin
la...@elk.itu.edu.tr Lale Tukenmez
lars....@stud.uni-bayreuth.de Lars Wagner
laur...@unicef.baku.az Roberto Laurenti
LCA...@ritvax.isc.rit.edu
ldep...@lava.net Luciano Depicolzuane
le...@netscope.net Lee Smallwood
legh...@cs.vu.nl Ghouch el L
le...@sn.no Elin Lihaug
LEP...@aol.com
lev...@lion.emprl.psu.edu Levent Trabzon
lev...@new-net.com Levent Ozturk
lev...@turknet.com Levent Aksoy
lev...@rnd.netas.com.tr Levent KoC
Leyla....@stud.lrz-muenchen.de
lgu...@emory.edu Levent Gultan
LHU...@LUSTA.LATROBE.EDU.AU
Livat...@osu.edu Haydar Livatyali
LOR...@LPS.UMONTREAL.CA Bernard LORAZO
lu...@worldbank.org Lale Uner
m-at...@sjca.edu Can ATACIK
m-yor...@uchicago.edu Mehmet Yorukoglu
M.A.C...@cms.salford.ac.uk Mehmet A Cengiz
M.A.Yu...@newcastle.ac.uk M..A.Yurdusev
M.C...@fs3.mbs.ac.uk MUSTAFA CAVUS
M.De...@wtb.tue.nl M.Demirel
m.esk...@ic.ac.uk Murat H. Eskiyerli
m.ka...@ic.ac.uk Mustafa Karakoy
M.M...@herts.ac.uk Macit
M.T.De...@sheffield.ac.uk M.Turgut Demirtepe
ma2...@servis.net.tr Mutlu Ayman
maal...@mailbox.syr.edu Misha'al Al-Kadhi
m...@openix.com Muhammad Basit
mabd...@qntm.com Mehdi Abdollahzadeh
m...@libtech.com mehmet cirit
m...@MAINE.MAINE.EDU Dennis McConnell - Maine Business School
MAH...@SALEM.WVNET.EDU
mahm...@ee.ubc.ca
mah...@CFD1.coe.neu.edu Mahmut D. Mat
ma...@sunhe.jinr.dubna.su Suleimanov Mais Kazim ogly
ma...@engr.uark.edu M ABDUL KHAN
mak...@rpi.edu MM
mal...@essex.ac.uk Alaydrous M
mal...@nygate.undp.org Malcolm Chapman
ma...@nts.mh.se SoulFire
m...@marketing.nov.su Aidyn M. Mamedov
ma...@snabk.ygaz.tyumen.su Mamed T. Aslanov
mam...@cas.umass.edu Nazim A Mamedov
mam...@glass.chem.spb.su Sergey B.Mamedov
mame...@rferl.org MamedovV
man...@cnet-nuisance.com Mansur
MANZ...@aol.com
MA...@ikf006.ikf.physik.uni-frankfurt.de
mari...@hotmail.com Mohamed Maricar
mar...@ug.bcc.bilkent.edu.tr Mariye Umay Mirzaoglu
mar...@ioa.com AbdulraHman Lomax
ma...@sam.silk.org
Massou...@Massoud.Ajami@sdsu.edu Massoud Ajami
mat...@du.edu MEHMET ATALAY
matr...@sam.silk.org
mat...@woli.baku.az Mats-Jan Soderberg
mat...@econ.lsa.umich.edu Shuichi Matsuta
ma...@jbc.baku.az John Brown Caspian
m...@epix.net Jeff Maxwell
ma...@bandit-1.West.Sun.COM Max Daneshvar
mayu...@sloep19.cs.vu.nl Yuksel yuksel MA
maz...@oguzm.baku.az Firm OGUZ-M
mb...@rnd.netas.com.tr mbas
mbec...@ouray.cudenver.edu MEHMET BECERIK
mbena...@worldbank.org Arbi Ben-Achour
MBMU...@ccvax.sinica.edu.tw
mbu...@rnd.netas.com.tr Bulent TURKOGLU
mca...@neuron.ato.org.tr Musa Kaz}m Gaplar
MCA...@aardvark.ucs.ou.edu MAS'OOD CAJEE
mc...@alaeddin.selcuk.edu.tr Murat CAN
MCBI...@fs1.ma.umist.ac.uk I.Gun
mce...@acadia.bu.edu Mujdat Cetin
mcho...@chat.carleton.ca Madeeha Choudhry
mcka...@ouray.cudenver.edu MUSTAFA CEM KARAKUS
MCLI...@mail1.mcc.ac.uk A.O.Kurt
mcli...@mail1.mcc.ac.uk R.Yilmaz
mda...@essex.ac.uk Darabaih M
mdu...@cnet-nuisance.com Murat Emre Duman
mea...@mail.odu.edu MEMDUH ERDEM ALTAN
mea...@city.bloomington.in.us Lara Mears
megi...@mailbox.syr.edu Mustafa Egilmezbilek
meg...@pitt.edu Mehmet Gulsen
mehd...@sunse.jinr.dubna.su Mehdiyev R.R.
mehemmet....@tip.nl Mehemmet Mihciokur
Mehman....@savechildren.org.az mehman
meh...@bigfoot.com Mehmet Turan
meh...@Bilkent.EDU.TR Mehmet Orhan
meh...@boun.edu.tr Mehmet Ali Ozdemir
mel...@alpha.fdu.edu Andre Melloul
mel...@rnd.netas.com.tr Meltem Erkan
mem...@ibm.net MEHMET YURDAKUL
men...@sun.leeds.ac.uk M H Dirikolu
merc...@mail-box.ch Mercyful
merr...@pilot.msu.edu Kimberly Christine Merriman
mest...@martin.luther.edu YoUr WoRsT NiGhTmArE!!!
mes...@rnd.netas.com.tr Gonul KAYA KAMALI
Mete....@isp.uib.no Mete Pamir
ME...@schil.co.uk Metin Durmus (MWA)
me...@tel-soft.com Metin Barut
metr...@sun20.hepi.edu.ge Zaza Metreveli
mev...@ucla.edu richard weissman
MFE...@chempath.uct.ac.za Essop, MF, Dr
MFNX...@fs1.art.man.ac.uk MFNXEMI1
MFNX...@fs1.art.man.ac.uk I.V.Baysan
mfnx...@fs1.art.man.ac.uk M.Bedir-1
MFNX...@fs1.art.man.ac.uk Mahmut Salihoglu
mfs...@u.washington.edu Marc Swiontkowski
m...@osf03.bim.ktu.edu.tr Mustafa Fehmi TURKER (orm)
mgo...@top.eng.utoledo.edu mehmet gozcu
mham...@mailbox.syr.edu litani
mhil...@cix.compulink.co.uk Mark Kobayashi-hillary
mhus...@enteract.com Zahid
mhus...@CCTR.UMKC.EDU
Michel.Van...@ping.be Vandenberghen
Mid...@hd01.nichd.nih.gov Midhet, Farid
midn...@midnightstar.com Midnight Star Int'l Co. (fax +1 (717) 545-2607)
mi...@chml.ubc.ca Issa Khalifa Milad
mi...@lynx.dac.neu.edu Minh Le
mir0...@wari.rcp.net.pe MARIO ENRIQUE LA RIVA MALAGA
mi...@ug.bcc.bilkent.edu.tr M. Mirat Satoglu
Mirza.M...@sci.monash.edu.au
mi...@gubim.bim.gantep.edu.tr
mischa.g...@st-catherines.oxford.ac.uk Mischa Gabowitsch
mism...@colybrand.com mismai00
m...@yoyo.cc.monash.edu.au Brian Charbine
mk...@stern.nyu.edu Marina Kvas
mk38...@oak.cats.ohiou.edu Murat Mustafa Kutluturk
mk...@tiger.lsuiss.ocs.lsu.edu Murat Kara
mk...@blue.weeg.uiowa.edu Mithat Kaya
MKE...@CLEMSON.EDU
mki...@osf1.gmu.edu Kamal R. Mamedzade
mkir...@sas.upenn.edu M. Akif Kirecci
mk...@magnus.acs.ohio-state.edu Muammer Koc
mkov...@indiana.edu Mesut Kovankaya
mle...@topaz.geology.utoledo.edu Mihai Lefticarili
mmas...@inst.augie.edu Muna Ashraf
MMB...@aol.com
MMI...@UOFT02.UTOLEDO.EDU
MNath...@aol.com
mna...@cat.syr.edu Muhammad Naeem Ayyaz
m...@columbia.edu Mohib N Durrani
mno...@giasbm01.vsnl.net.in Dr.Milind N.Ovalekar
m...@uakron.edu mohammad n qureshi
MOBV...@fs2.scg.man.ac.uk Ashabil Aygan
m...@galcit.caltech.edu Mohammad R. Gharib
moh...@u.washington.edu M. Ohtaki
MonB...@aol.com
mora...@biomag9.zibmt.uni-ulm.de Maurizio Morabito
morg...@wharton.upenn.edu Morgan M. Vandagriff
mosa...@osshe.edu Behrooz Mosanenzadeh
mose...@bp.com Moseley, Keith.
mov...@ans.baku.az Movsum R. Mamed-zadeh
moz...@keller.clarke.edu
MPQS...@fs2.elt.umist.ac.uk I. GUN
mq...@columbia.edu Omar Qayyum
m...@hookup.net
m...@rorqual.cc.metu.edu.tr mehmet reha pamir
ms0...@uhura.cc.rochester.edu Mehmet Sekerci
ms...@columbia.edu Murat Selamoglu
msa...@world.std.com Marc Sacks
msa...@ces.clemson.edu Mehmet
MSCELIK%TRD...@vm.ege.edu.tr
ms...@top.cis.syr.edu Mehmet Sen
mse...@wsunix.wsu.edu Sever
msh...@OREGON.UOREGON.EDU Murtuz Alexander Sheikh-Zamanly
msmu...@ucdavis.edu Mohammed Musazay
MSRG...@fs1.ec.man.ac.uk Kamer Kasim
MSRS...@fs1.ec.man.ac.uk c.bagci
mtl...@top.eng.utoledo.edu mothusi tladi
mto...@ama.caltech.edu Maya Tokman
mtp...@isca.uiowa.edu Michael T Pins
mt...@aber.ac.uk Indigo Jo
mu...@aber.ac.uk MUSTAFA MERIC
murat...@turkcell.com.tr Murat Isik
murat.y...@primenet.com Murat Yenilmez
mur...@mdx.ac.uk
mu...@almaak.usc.edu Murat Somer
mu...@cyberport.net Murat Kalinyaprak
mu...@grove.ufl.EDU Murat Fadiloglu
mu...@iastate.edu Murat Tasdemir
mur...@doruk.com.tr Murat Odabasi
mur...@prizma.net.tr Murat Mirasyedi
mu...@reuters.kiev.ua Yura Musayev
mus...@euch4g.chem.emory.edu
mus...@pitt.edu Mustafa Sonmez
Mustaf...@mgmt.purdue.edu Acar,Mustafa
Mut...@aol.com
mu...@scf-fs.usc.edu mutlu
muz...@mail.wsu.edu Uzumcu
mv...@po.CWRU.Edu Mariappan V. Chelliah
mv...@po.CWRU.Edu Maxim V. Soloviev
mw9...@brunel.ac.uk Sukru Talas
MX-R...@postoffice.worldnet.att.net RACER
mx...@psu.edu metin ozgul
mya...@engin.umich.edu Mehmet Yavuz
myer...@pilot.msu.edu Melinda Jean Myers
n.o...@ic.ac.uk
N...@soas.ac.uk NA2
nab...@orchard.washtenaw.cc.mi.us Narquiz Abbaszade
na...@gubim.bim.gantep.edu.tr
na...@ug.bcc.bilkent.edu.tr Murat Nadastepe
na...@mips.pfalz.de Christian Weisgerber
na...@ruby.ils.unc.edu Ilyas Naibov-Aylisli
nala...@welchlink.welch.jhu.edu NAEL ABDUL-SAHIB AL-ABDULLA
nal...@ug.bcc.bilkent.edu.tr Ismail Ahmet Nalcacioglu
nali...@worldbank.org.az
nami...@cougarnet.netexp.net Navid_Amirtabar
na...@neuron.ato.org.tr Dr.M.Nuri ARDA
nas...@mcmail.CIS.McMaster.CA S. Nassif
na...@netcom.com Nancy Mazmi
n...@nataa.fr.eu.org Nat Makarevitch
nat...@learn.baku.az Nathan Wagner
nawa...@cs.uidaho.edu faried nawaz
naw...@sprynet.com Sarkhosh Nawrozi
nay...@math.ohio-state.edu Nuh Aydin
nayd...@bu.edu Nuriye Aydogan
na...@ruby.ils.unc.edu Muzhgan Nazarova
na...@liverpool.ac.uk Mr M. Nazli
nbuy...@lynx.dac.neu.edu Nadide Buyulozturk
ndag...@magnus.acs.ohio-state.edu Necdet Dagdelen
ne33...@oak.cats.ohiou.edu Necmi Esgi
ne...@osf03.bim.ktu.edu.tr Nebi Bilir (orm)
Necip....@newcastle.ac.uk necip....@ncl.ac.uk
ne...@banks.scar.utoronto.ca Imre (Tzvi) Neuwirth
new...@newbury.baku.az Newbury International Limited
nh...@columbia.edu Nihad Heydar Aliev
ni...@inferno.fc.hp.com Nick Ingegneri
NI...@BAKUWPOA.us-state.gov Hashimzade, Nigar
ni...@mab1.anaem.gov.tr
ni...@columbia.edu Nabukistan Joe
nik...@yamb.ygaz.tyumen.su Nikolay N. Kiyanitsa
nil...@ecst.csuchico.edu Nilesh M. Shah
Nina....@emich.edu Student Grade/Tutor
nk...@andrew.cmu.edu Naim Kapucu
nma...@UOFT02.UTOLEDO.EDU
nmh...@bright.net Jessica Himebaugh
nmu...@site.gmu.edu
NO...@BAKUWPOA.us-state.gov Rzayev, Nofal
no...@doomsday.ece.jhu.edu Amjad T. Obeidat
NO...@aol.com
nowr...@ihcmail.ih.lucent.com Nowroozi, Hamid
noz...@neuron.ato.org.tr nam}k-ozbek
nsar...@worldbank.org Nirmala Saraswat
NSar...@webdom.rossmed.edu.dm Sarikaya, Nihal
nsh...@cs.rochester.edu Naeem N. Sheikh
ns...@columbia.edu Naser Syed Sultan
ntu...@ces.clemson.edu N. Serdar TUNABOYLU,Clemson,USA
nura...@rnd.netas.com.tr Nurayhan Aslan
nur...@gwis2.circ.gwu.edu Elkhan Nuriyev
O.Akk...@sheffield.ac.uk O.Akkoyunlu
o.mu...@student.qut.edu.au OKI MUSAKTI
ob...@cs1.cc.lehigh.edu olcay Boz
oba...@ug.bcc.bilkent.edu.tr Oguz Baktir
oba...@Bilkent.EDU.TR Ozlem Asiye Basci
obo...@engin.umich.edu Ozdal Boyraz
oc...@is.icc.u-tokai.ac.jp
o...@diyar.hasel.com.tr OMER CAN DEMIRTAS
oerc...@meceng.coe.neu.edu Ozgur Ercetin
off...@lgic.baku.az LGIC
og...@gubim.bim.gantep.edu.tr
ogu...@MIT.EDU Oguz Gunes
OGU...@sask.usask.ca
og...@ucs.orst.edu HaMdI oGuT
OG...@ttacs1.ttu.edu
o...@tcad.ee.ufl.edu Omer Dokumaci
o...@rnd.netas.com.tr Orhan K. Akyildiz
ok...@libra.fen.bilkent.edu.tr Orhun Kara
ok...@eden.rutgers.edu Oksay
ok...@soros.baku.az Oktay Hajiyev
ok...@MIT.EDU
oky...@charlie.cns.iit.edu Fethi A. Okyar
ol...@viking.mv.com Olav Nieuwejaar
ol...@rnd.netas.com.tr Ibrahim Olcer
ol...@yamb.ygaz.tyumen.su Oleg V. Mihaylov
omda...@flash.net O Dalgic
om...@ankara.datasel.com.tr OMER
on...@ohv.kuee.kyoto-u.ac.jp Onat Ahmet
on...@boun.edu.tr Atilla M. ONER
on...@paris.usc.edu
oo...@rnd.netas.com.tr Oguz Oktay
ooz...@ouray.cudenver.edu OZDEN OZBAY
op...@gubim.bim.gantep.edu.tr
op...@gubim.bim.gantep.edu.tr
o...@escortnet.com ORHAN KARADENIZ
os...@aries.scs.uiuc.edu osama Abou-Zied
o...@osi.silk.org Open Society Institute
Osman.S...@Bristol.ac.uk O. Sivrikaya
os...@teleport.com Osman F. Biranis
ot...@eng.uci.edu Remzi Oten
ot...@nolimits.net Ozlem Tuli
our...@bu.edu Zaur rzakhanov
ova...@rpi.edu Levent Ovacik
ow...@irchq.baku.az Owais Adil
OX...@PSUVM.PSU.EDU osman yildiz
o...@compclup.ceng.metu.edu.tr Oya Anafarta
ozad...@osu.edu Ferhan Ozadali
oza...@rrb.eng.wayne.edu Ahmet Cuneyt Ozaktay
oz...@iris.bu.edu
oz...@ug.bcc.bilkent.edu.tr Kadriye Ozbas
OZBI...@VM.CC.PURDUE.EDU Mehmet Ozbilgin
ozb...@worldnet.att.net Kerem Ozboya
oz...@man.metu.edu.tr Olcay Ozcan (MAN454)
ozc...@rpi.edu Ahmet Nurettin Ozcivelek
ozd...@ece.utexas.edu Caner Ozdemir
ozd...@eecs.umich.edu Can Ozdemir
ozd...@sprynet.com
oze...@osu.edu Tugrul Ozel
ozen...@pop1.backbone.ou.edu Gurhan Ozen
Ozerk...@raksnet.com.tr Ozerk Alpay
oz...@eniac.seas.upenn.edu Ozgur Demiral
oz...@rnd.netas.com.tr Ozgur Yavuz
oz...@scf-fs.usc.edu Soner Ozgur
oz...@tel-soft.com Ozlem Onbasioglu
oz...@dcs.uky.edu Ahmet Ozmen
oz...@ccs.neu.edu Ali Ozmez
ozt...@cae.wisc.edu Orkun Ozturk
ozt...@rpi.edu Fahrettin Ozturk
ozt...@scf-fs.usc.edu Mehmet OZTURK
ozt...@space.ru Devrim OZTURK
ozug...@math.wisc.edu Ersin Ozugurlu
ozyi...@alpha.fdu.edu Adnan Ozyilmaz
ozy...@charlie.cns.iit.edu Lutfi Ozyuzer
ozy...@ug.bcc.bilkent.edu.tr Selin Ozyurek
ozy...@eng.usf.edu Burak Ozyurt (CH)
ozzey@hitit Zeynep Oz
p021...@pbfreenet.seflin.lib.fl.us Irv Luckom
pal..johansen@easteur-orient.uio.no P}l Johansen
pa...@bornova.ege.edu.tr pamuk
para...@alpha.fdu.edu Amresh Paranjpe
pa...@byu.edu Robert Craig Harman
par...@mcmail.CIS.McMaster.CA Mahmut Parlar
par...@ncat.edu Ravi K. Parmar
part...@tcp.co.uk David Couchman
PAS...@vxjinr.jinr.ru
pat...@worldnet.att.net IZZET KAYA
pau...@astro.ocis.temple.edu Pam Austin
pavi...@ncat.edu Pavithra Jayaraman
peg...@dircon.co.uk ZP
pek...@ACSU.Buffalo.EDU Gokhan Pekcan
Pet...@pprz02.hrz.Uni-Marburg.DE Benjamin PETER
pe...@sil.baku.az Peter Kirk
phe...@MIT.EDU
phi...@scf-fs.usc.edu David Holmes
ph...@siva.bris.ac.uk
ph...@csv.warwick.ac.uk Mr S Agan
PHS...@vaxc.cc.monash.edu.au D A Rice
phu...@northpark.edu Pi-Ching Huang
pil...@ibm.net
pish...@uclink3.berkeley.edu Shervin Kordary Sadloui Pishevar
piv...@ausch.msk.su pivnik
pj...@leicester.ac.uk Pete Humble
pk...@WELLESLEY.EDU phil kohl
PL95...@PACEVM.DAC.PACE.EDU
PL95...@PACEVM.DAC.PACE.EDU Azer Ibadov
PL96...@PACEVM.DAC.PACE.EDU
PL96...@PACEVM.DAC.PACE.EDU
PL96...@PACEVM.DAC.PACE.EDU
pl...@lucent.com Pamela A Lurz
ply...@darwin.helios.nd.edu patrick lyons
PM...@lamp.ac.uk
poo...@jhu.edu Mohammed Moin Hussaini
pow...@hilbert.cdsp.neu.edu Power Course Student
pro...@ACSU.Buffalo.EDU Kluaymai Promdee
ps...@pansy.csv.warwick.ac.uk K.Cakir
pt_9...@cchs.usyd.edu.au Wantana Vattanasilp
puer...@stud.uni-frankfurt.d400.de YANKI PU RSU N
pul...@Bilkent.EDU.TR Mustafa Pultar
px...@po.CWRU.Edu Prakash Krishnan
qa...@juno.com Chia F Sitawi
Qa...@aol.com
qazi...@themall.net Qazi Brothers
qmd...@panther.Gsu.EDU Bijan Fazlollahi
R.C...@sheffield.ac.uk R.Capan
R0I...@acs.tamu.edu IRZABEKOV, RAUF
r1...@uakron.edu Fadi N Sibai
R2...@VM1.CC.UAKRON.EDU
r...@st-andrews.ac.uk Rifat Atay
ra...@cis.ohio-state..edu claude eric rabb
RabochovaJ @omri.cz Jarka Rabochova
Ra...@cris.com
ra...@sharat.co.il Raffy Aslanbekov
ra...@apollo.micro.elec.okayama-u.ac.jp ispir
ra...@cnet-nuisance.com Rahim Mahmudov
ralima...@DELTA.IS.TCU.EDU Rufat Alimardanov
Ramazan_Cakir/ACEO/ACC/ARCO...@arcochem.com Ramazan Cakir/ACEO/ACC/ARCO
ramk...@netvigator.com ramkofhk
ras...@ncat.edu Shahbazi Rahim
rbu...@checkfree.com
r...@leicester.ac.uk R. COSKUN
RCA...@CLEMSON.EDU
rd...@columbia.edu Rahmad D.
re...@hotmail.com recep cigdem
re...@fscfws.com Rehan Wahab
re...@lclark.edu Revaz Javelidze
rgb...@usia.gov Brown, Richard
ri...@alpha.fdu.edu Riad Jafarov
Ricardas.Kas...@nd.edu Ricardas Kasperavicius
rid...@savechildren.org.az Ian Ridley (ADRA)
rid...@omni.cc.purdue.edu Kemal Birdir
ri...@unity.ncsu.edu
ri...@upenn5.hep.upenn.edu Ramazan A Isik
rno...@chem.bu.edu Rana Nomak
robe...@umich.edu Robert William Aylesworth
rob...@msn.com robert zeller
ronnie...@mogur.com Ronnie Grant
ROSY...@msn.com Carlton Chan
rou...@faraday.ee.psu.edu NOT LOGGED ON
rov...@jhunix.hcf.jhu.edu Rovshan G sadygov
rrm...@unity.ncsu.edu Rania Masri
rs...@columbia.edu Raheel Siddiqui
rsa...@ces.clemson.edu
rs...@columbia.edu Robinder S. Bhatty
RTA...@UOFT02.UTOLEDO.EDU
rts...@UOFT02.UTOLEDO.EDU
ru...@music.botik.ru Rufat A. Suleymanov
rxh...@ap.spa.psu.edu REHA HAYMANALI
S-EKU...@bss1.umd.edu Erjan Kurbanov
S.D...@herts.ac.uk Duru
S.O...@sheffield.ac.uk S.Ozcan
s96...@uottawa.ca Ghazala Choudhary
sab...@kvaerner.baku.az Sabina Kuliyeva
sab...@ces.clemson.edu Sabri Gurbuz
sa...@Bilkent.EDU.TR Sacit Aydin
sa...@gubim.bim.gantep.edu.tr DR.SADETTIN OZYAZICI SA...@GUBIM.BIM.GANTEP.EDU
sa...@cs.bu.edu Sadik Tokgoz
sad...@omri.cz Miat Sadiku
sag...@Bilkent.EDU.TR Ismail Saglam
sag...@ece.utexas.edu Mustafa Saglam
sah...@ee.gatech.edu Erin Sahinci
sah...@alpha2.rad.med.umich.edu
sah...@getco.baku.az Shafik Ahmed
saidi....@mailbox.swipnet.se Masud
sa...@libra.fen.bilkent.edu.tr M. Saiful Islam
sak...@ee.usyd.EDU.AU Mustafa Sakalli
sak...@ces.clemson.edu
Saleh.S...@science.ankara.edu.tr Saleh Sultansoy
sal...@mppmu.mpg.de Denis Salihagic
sa...@sam.silk.org
sa...@xerxes.utias.toronto.edu Samir M. Fahs
San...@nafsa.org Sandra Galib
sanli...@osu.edu SALIH SANLIOGLU
sardar@savechildren..org.az Sardar Azeri
sar...@quest.ece.cmu.edu
sari...@scf-fs.usc.edu ----EMINE----
sa...@ug.bcc.bilkent.edu.tr Serkan Sava
sav...@worldnet.att.net
sa...@cnet-nuisance.com Savas Irez
sa...@gubim.bim.gantep.edu.tr
SA...@szn1.agric.nottingham.ac.uk YUCEL UNAL
s...@boun.edu.tr Cem Say
say...@cs.bilkent.edu.tr Yucel Saygin
sb94...@politics.ankara.edu.tr Unal Tolun
sb95...@politics.ankara.edu.tr Yunus Oguzhan Aloglu
sbo...@ns.acadiacom.net Sukru Bogut
sch...@xs4all.nl E.A.
schleie...@goteborg.mail.telia.com Erik Andersson
sch...@physik.tu-berlin.de Georg Schwarz
sco...@engin.umich.edu Scott Joseph Kennedy
secr...@sbs.ygaz.tyumen.su Secretar PKF SBS
secr...@ucsu.Colorado.EDU SECRIST JENNIFER LEIGH
se...@azeriltd.baku.az Buniat Sardarov
sehe...@mail.surf-line.or.jp Bill & Seher Thurston
SELAHAT...@student.kuleuven.ac.be selahattin ozer
seli...@ix.netcom.com Ravil Selihmet
se...@mam.gov.tr Selim Cetin
sel...@sci.kun.nl Selman Karaman
SEN...@ea.eee.metu.edu.tr Sencan Tuncer
ser...@pc5.anaem.gov.tr
ser...@rmit.edu.au serdar boztas
serhan...@sdrc.com Serhan Dagtas
ser...@bornova.ege.edu.tr .FSE.
ser...@MIT.EDU
ser...@new-net.com Serkan Havuz
serm...@cvetic.hep.upenn.edu Emre Sermutlu
Serra.R...@widener.edu Serra R Ekinci
se...@grove.ufl.EDU O Serya Yesilcay
S...@msmail.winrock.org Sheila Scott
sev...@pitt.edu Sevket Gumustekin
sevi...@top.cis.syr.edu
seyf...@ans.baku.az Seyfulla F. Mustafayev
SEYREK%TRD...@vm.ege.edu.tr
sezen...@cwi.cablew.com Sezen Uysal
seze...@engpub1.bu.edu Osman Ugur Sezerman
sez...@osf03.bim.ktu.edu.tr Sezgin Hacisalihoglu(orm.)
sfi...@ford.com
sg93...@dunx1.ocs.drexel.edu Cevat Yaman
sg93...@dunx1.ocs.drexel.edu Coskun Tasoluk
sg94...@dunx1.ocs.drexel.edu
sg95...@dunx1.ocs.drexel.edu Nizamettin Gok
sg95...@dunx1.ocs.drexel.edu Mehmet Ali Hinis
sg95...@dunx1.ocs.drexel.edu Murat Gunay
sga...@math.utoledo.edu Suzan Gazioglu
sh...@sunhe.jinr.dubna.su Shahaliev E.I.
shah...@nbnet.nb.ca shaheedi
sha...@amnesty.baku.az Shahin Rzayev
SH...@GEOSCI.Lan.McGill.CA Salah Shata
sha...@rpi.edu Garri Shaulov
sh...@gilbert.cc.monash.edu.au Sher
shigeki...@yale.edu Shigeki Takada
sho...@uiuc.edu M. Mobin Shorish
s...@openix.com Shaojie Hu
shus...@rsis.com Sayed W. Hussaini
si...@tel-soft.com Sibel Oktay
si...@gubim.bim.gantep.edu.tr
sic...@usa.pipeline.com SICUSA
si...@essex.ac.uk sidda
sid...@ece.ucdavis.edu Erkin Sidick
SIDI...@HARPO.TNSTATE.EDU BEDIL
sig...@gubim.bim.gantep.edu.tr
sik...@usia.gov Kerimova, Sevda
Sinan....@newcastle.ac.uk UYANIK
si...@isi.com Sinan Karahan
sk...@gubim.bim.gantep.edu.tr
sl...@ygaz.tyumen.su Vyacheslav V. Popovichenko
s...@infinet.com Metin
sm...@columbia.edu Egyptian Biotch
sm...@columbia.edu Sayedmustafah Khwaja
sn...@columbia.edu Syed Naveed Hasan
sns...@welchlink.welch.jhu.edu Shawn Smith
so9...@american.edu sezai ozcelik
soe...@indiana.edu suzan oezel
sof...@ts.umu.se Sofia Cedergren
so...@cord.iupui.edu Serdar OGUZ
so...@euronet.nl Mehmet Tutuncu
sou...@omri.cz Ondrej Soukup
soul...@solace.mh.se Nayeb Maleki
sout...@whidbey.net ChristophOK
soy...@cakabey.ege.edu.tr Halit Soydan
soy...@MIT.EDU Soykan Soyucayli
soyl...@bornova.ege.edu.tr Altunay Soylemez
soyl...@csc.umist.ac.uk M Turan SOYLEMEZ
soy...@scf-fs.usc.edu Kerim K. Soyoguz
srob...@scf-fs.usc.edu sroberts
ssa...@PO-Box.McGill.CA
ss...@mam.gov.tr Sibel Sain
sser...@prizma.net.tr Seyit Ali SERBEST
SSO...@CC.OWU.EDU
ss...@columbia.edu S. Sadi Seferoglu
st00...@HRZPUB.th-darmstadt.de Ziya Aksoy
st63...@oak.cats.ohiou.edu Selahattin Turan
st95...@dunx1.ocs.drexel.edu Leyla Salehli
STP9...@sheffield.ac.uk V.R.Uslu
str...@is.nyu.edu Tahmeed
Strat...@aol.com
stu...@nunic.nu.edu student
s...@capricornus.fen.bilkent.edu.tr Mehmet Fatih Su
s...@tcres.cs.depaul.edu SU
su...@rorqual.cc.metu.edu.tr suha bolukbasi
suh...@Bilkent.EDU.TR Suheyla Ozyildirim
Sukru.M.P...@tc.umn.edu sukru metin pancarci
sula...@irchq.baku.az Sulaiman Sahibzada
Suleyma...@raksnet.com.tr Suleyman Sahin
Suley...@omri.cz Elin Suleymanov
su...@Planet.COM.TR Manager
su...@lily.bu.ac.th Supak Ooy-isaranukul
sur...@rorqual.cc.metu.edu.tr cengiz surucu
su...@fwi.uva.nl Susan Uskudarli
sus...@ri.ac.uk Peter Sushko
sy...@laker.net Gailani
sy...@eos.ncsu.edu Shuh-chwen Yeh
sz...@iaepan.edu.pl Slawoj Szynkiewicz
T.Ba...@sct.gu.edu.au Tim Bakerov
ta...@ampr-gw.metu.edu.tr Isik BODUR
tah...@ampex.com Mohammad Taher
ta...@scf-fs.usc.edu ugur takak
ta...@ai-lab.fh-furtwangen.de Tuncay Tali
ta...@ug.bcc.bilkent.edu.tr Tamer Kahveci
tan...@tel-soft.com Tansel Caglar
ta...@singnet.com.sg Tan Wee Szu
tar...@irchq.baku.az Taraneh Milani
targ...@geocities.com Mahmut PULAT
tasd...@pilot.msu.edu Feridun Tasdan
tasd...@vax002.nhc.edu
tas...@village.ios.com Koray Tastan
tau...@compclup.ceng.metu.edu.tr Taurus the Prince of Thieves.
tay...@engin.umich.edu Tayfun Ozdemir
tay...@rnd.netas.com.tr Tayfun Ozdemir
tay...@dominet.in.com.tr Tankut Taylan
tch...@math.utoledo.edu Tao Chang
td...@coe.neu.edu TamerDag
tee...@iinet.net.au
tek...@kku.edu.tr Erdinc Tekbas
te...@ultranet.com Zuhtu Tekin
Tekt...@T-Online.de H|seyin
tell...@pilot.msu.edu Mustafa Burak Telli
TER...@UBmail.ubalt.edu Tugba Ergat
tev...@goldwave.ogu.edu.tr Tevfik Uret
tex...@sun.leeds.ac.uk N Celik
tge...@HRZ.Uni-Bielefeld.DE
THIN...@JHUVMS.HCF.JHU.EDU
Thomas...@rz.ruhr-uni-bochum.de Thomas Wings
tho...@physics.arizona.edu Hans-Thomas Elze
thom...@chip.cba.ufl.edu THOMAS SHAWN E
tim...@bp.com Timms, Roy
ti...@guzik.com Teymur Suleymanov
tin...@panix.com Bruce Tindall
TIP%TRD...@vm.ege.edu.tr
tka...@indiana.edu Tarkan KACMAZ
t...@k162.kvk.otol.fi Tuomas Kaikkonen
tkor...@mailbox.syr.edu Turgay Korkmaz
tmu...@expert.cc.purdue.edu Murat Takmakli
TNI...@stud.aubg.bg Todor Nikolaev Ivanov
tn...@compmore.net Polat Kaya
to...@eng.umd.edu Ayse Sezin Tokar
to...@fmph.uniba.sk Stanislav Tokar
tok...@rorqual.cc.metu.edu.tr Mehmet Ziya Tokinan
to...@ee.rochester.edu Candemir Toklu
to...@venus.satcom.gov.tr Tolga ERDAL
Tolga_Y...@bus.emory.edu Tolga Yaveroglu
T...@kcgl1.eng.ohio-state.edu
Top...@aol.com
toporc...@omri.cz Zuzana Toporcerova
tora...@c031.aone.net.au Zeki Toral
Torsten....@cern.ch Torsten Wildschek
to...@fiu.edu Sabri Tosunoglu
trans...@omri.cz Transition
tsan...@scf-fs.usc.edu tsanchez
tsap...@bornova.ege.edu.tr Tunc Sapanci
tu...@magnus.acs.ohio-state.edu Tamer Ucar
TUELIN...@HP-Germany-om5.om.hp.com
tuf...@rpi.edu Celal Sami Tufekci
tuf...@ug.bcc.bilkent.edu.tr Dursun Ilhan Tufekci
tu...@gubim.bim.gantep.edu.tr
TU...@benet.be.emu.edu.tr Mustafa TUMER
tu...@rnd.netas.com.tr Tunc ALTINBAS
TU...@FDUSVRT1.FDU.EDU
tun...@gubim.bim.gantep.edu.tr
t...@engin.umich.edu Yahya K Tur
tu...@yoyo.cc.monash.edu.au Ahmet Sadi
tur...@ug.bcc.bilkent.edu.tr Fatma Turkay Arslan
tur...@plex.nl Stichting Turks Centrum
tur...@MO.NET phlegm!!
tur...@euronet.nl Omer Erdem
tur...@gwis2.circ.gwu.edu Turkic Club of GWU
tur...@gwis2.circ.gwu.edu Turkish Student Assoc.
turk...@ma.man.ac.uk M Turkyilmazoglu
tur...@ix.netcom.com Ata Tursucu
tya...@indiana.edu Tracy Jane Yandle
tyz...@HK.Super.NET Tamer Zaim
tzza...@grits.valdosta.peachnet.edu Taleyran_Z_Zamanov
U.C...@sheffield.ac.uk U.Cagal
u5...@cc.keele.ac.uk O Kasapoglu
uals...@mcl.ucsb.edu Adnan A Alseidi
uaoz...@icaen.uiowa.edu
ucc...@ucl.ac.uk Abil Aliev
uc...@gubim.bim.gantep.edu.tr
uco...@wharton.upenn.edu Young Turk
ue...@dominet.in.com.tr A. Umut Egel
ue...@lynx.dac.neu.edu Ugur Emek
UGD...@prodigy.com MR STEVE HAGERMAN
ug...@tibco.com Ugur Akdemir
UGu...@aol.com
uj...@rz.uni-karlsruhe.de
ulup...@scr.siemens.com Fatih Ulupinar
ul...@boun.edu.tr Tolga Ulus
ul...@gubim.bim.gantep.edu.tr
umit.ku...@gs.com Umit Kumcuoglu
umph...@mb.sympatico.ca Lorne Umphrey
una...@pitt.edu Umar N Akdas
ung...@cs.rpi.edu Alper Ungor
ur...@cs.umd.edu Tolga Urhan
ur...@juno.com
ur...@math.umn.edu Cetin Urtis
usdo...@ibmmail.com POST, F. U762387
uspa...@ibmmail.com Emre Gunerman EGUERMAN
usu...@sunse.jinr.dubna.su Usubov Z.U.
uy...@cs.bilkent.edu.tr Ertugrul Uysal
uy...@cs.umd.edu
uy...@ee.gannon.edu Arif Uysal
uz...@gubim.bim.gantep.edu.tr
Veli....@newcastle.ac.uk Veli.Uygur
veli...@ug.bcc.bilkent.edu.tr Haydar Velioglu
veli...@ecn.purdue.edu Omer Emre Velipasaoglu
vent...@skat.usc.edu Tony Ventocilla
verti...@gn.apc.org Verification Technology Information Centre
ve...@lider.baku.az Velizade E.
ve...@rnd.netas.com.tr Veyis Sarioguz
Vilt...@omri.cz Alena Viltova
vko...@gsief.sachar.brandeis.edu Kozlov, Vladimir
VN...@hermes.cam.ac.uk Vugar Seidov
vol...@andrew.cmu.edu Volkan Akcelik
vol...@rnd.netas.com.tr Volkan Yemlihaoglu
vo...@cli.di.unipi.it Golpe
voor...@grapevinegroup.com William Voorhees
vsee...@erols.com Victor Seemann
vsez...@uoft02.utoledo.edu Volkan Sezginis
vshe...@indiana.edu Vladimir V Shevtsov
vu...@impro.azerbaijan.su Vugar S. Effendiyev
VUR...@VM.TEMPLE.EDU
vu...@savechildren.org.az Vusal Radjabli
vvd...@garnet.acns.fsu.edu Valida Dushdurova
vx...@po.CWRU.Edu Victor Ryzhov
wag...@osshe.edu George Wagner
wah...@ncat.edu Waheed A. Khan
wan...@alpha.fdu.edu Lu Wang
wa...@scf.usc.edu Abu Wawda
wgro...@top.eng.utoledo.edu wojciech grohman
wi...@mizar.usc.edu wilee
wma...@intrex.net Wael Masri
wwhi...@ncat.edu Willie F. Whitley
www...@knidos.cc.metu.edu.tr Alkim OZAYGEN
wwws...@knidos.cc.metu.edu.tr Sevgi Toplulugu admini
xa...@dial.pipex.com Fergus O'Connell
xdot...@dnai.com X DOT 25
Y.Ge...@sheffield.ac.uk YUCEL GENCER
y.u...@ic.ac.uk Yakup Unlu
ya...@umr.edu Saffet Yagiz
yal...@ama.caltech.edu Yalchin Efendiev
yal...@kku.edu.tr cahit
ya...@netime.com nick uyaniker
yan...@biochem.purdue.edu ferda yantiri
yap...@servis.net.tr Yapitek Ltd. Co.
yap...@res.baku.az Isil Yaprak
ya...@neuron.ato.org.tr Yalim & Yesim Ates
yaz...@montrouge.rps.slb.com Iffet Yazici
yca...@top.eng.utoledo.edu yilmaz cantez
ydobb...@worldbank.org Yvonne Dobbelmann
yege...@grove.ufl.EDU Murat Yegengil
ye...@mam.gov.tr Yener OZKAN
Yer...@oj.rsmas.miami.edu Engin Yergin
yet...@cs.wisc.edu Oguz Yetkin
yig...@charlie.cns.iit.edu Nizamettin Yigit
yig...@rpi.edu Ekrem Akif Yigit
yig...@openix.com Yigit Kavurmacioglu
yil...@rpi.edu Guven Ahmet Yildiz
yil...@umich.edu Ali Ozgur Yilmaz
yk...@watt.seas.virginia.edu Yavuz Kaynar
YMOG...@ELECOM2.watstar.uwaterloo.ca Y Moghangard
yoka...@ouray.cudenver.edu YUSUF OKAN KAVUNCU
yong...@ix.netcom.com Choice
youn...@spot.Colorado.EDU GREG YOUNGER
yo...@fy.chalmers.se Yashar Yourdshahyan
ys...@wam.umd.edu M. Yalcin SERT
y...@scf.usc.edu yta
yu...@mesh.hpl.hp.com Yucel Altunbasak
yu...@stat.psu.edu Recai _ Yucel
yuk...@fen.bilkent.edu.tr Hasan Yuksel
yuk...@CCIT.ARIZONA.EDU
yur...@mam.gov.tr Ali Ihsan Yurekli
YU...@BAKUWPOA.us-state.gov Veliyev, Yusif
Yusuf....@tc.umn.edu yusuf barbaros celik
yxs...@mail.odu.edu YASAR SARI
yyani...@osu.edu Yucel Yanikdag
yyi...@ug.bcc.bilkent.edu.tr Yasin Yilmaz
yyu...@nunic.nu.edu Yavuz A Yuksel - 3661022
zalek...@lanvision.com Alekperov, Zaur
za...@ACSU.Buffalo.EDU Joshua C Zalen
ZAR...@aol.com
zbac...@kumc.edu Zewudie Bachore
zdem...@titan.liunet.edu
ze...@mail.utexas.edu Zemfira Gashimova
zeni...@erols.com zenithco
zerr...@cat.syr.edu
zha...@okstate.edu ZHANAR N SAGIMBAYEVA
zmam...@lynx.dac.neu.edu Zaur Mamedov
zma...@earthlink.net Aylin
zo...@CCIT.ARIZONA.EDU
zu...@cat.syr.edu
zu...@together.net Zurab G.
zusc...@osshe.edu Ted Zuschlag
Voted No
------------------------------------------------------------------------------
10043...@compuserve.com Kevork K. Oskanian
10226...@compuserve.com Robert J. Sawyer
10330...@CompuServe.COM Fred Tahmasian
10337...@CompuServe.COM Viken Tufenkjian
10450...@compuserve.com by way of hun...@ozemail.com.au (Manoug Demirjia
10526...@compuserve.com RAFFI CHAMLIAN
151a...@pic.ucla.edu Armen Sefyan
4BB2BU...@vmsb.csd.mu.edu
72172...@compuserve.com Edwin Grigorian
7317...@CompuServe.COM Levon Marashlian
7455...@CompuServe.COM Karnik Torikian
7464...@CompuServe.COM Janice Summers
75151...@CompuServe.COM A W O L
76265...@CompuServe.COM Hamo Tatolian
aa...@mail.idt.net Peter J. Abajian
AAIV...@aua.am Armen Aivazian
AALL...@aua.am Anaida Allakhverdyan
AARA...@aua.am Ara Araratyan
AARM...@aua.am ATKEN ARMENIAN
aas...@sph.emory.edu Armen Asatrian, MD
AAV...@aua.am Aram Avakian
ab...@concentric.net Narek Boudakian
Abra...@Accentsoft.com Abraham Hagopian
ac2...@email.csun.edu club
acha...@cymbal.aix.calpoly.edu Ara Hagop Chakalian
ACHI...@aua.am ARTHUR CHILINGARIAN
acir...@umich.edu Andrea Marie Ani Cirrito
Adana...@aol.com
ada...@ucla.edu Alfred Danielian
adik...@scf.usc.edu adikrani
adja...@earthlink.net Allen Adjamian
ad...@leland.Stanford.EDU Adour V. Kabakian
ADOU...@fis.utoronto.ca Armig Adourian
adp...@emirates.net.ae VIGEN GRAGOSSIAN
adr...@ucla.edu
ad...@vortex.mit.edu
AECON...@aol.com
aelm...@ucdavis.edu Ani Elmaoglu
afo...@accent.net ADRF
aga...@ibm.net Aram Agajanian
ag...@nic.NK.AM AGAPE Project in NKR
agar...@inf.fu-berlin.de Armine Agaronian
AGEV...@aua.am ARMAN GEVORGIAN
agrig...@CCGATE.HAC.COM
AHac...@genetics.com Aremin Hacobian
aha...@bu.edu Alexis Hajatain
AHAM...@aua.am Artak Hambarian
ain...@bobcat.ent.ohiou.edu Hrair Aintablian
AJA...@aua.am Armine Janyan
Ajarch...@worldnet.att.net Antranik Jarchafjian
a...@iosphere.net Anthony
akam...@ea.oac.uci.edu Armen Kamyshyan
akar...@ucla.edu Ani Karayan
AKAZ...@aua.am Anahit Kazanchian
ake...@netcom.ca Ara A. Kerjikian
aket...@leland.Stanford.EDU Aline Ketefian
AKH...@aua.am Ara Khachatryan
ako...@scf.usc.edu akopyan
aku...@transplan.org
ala...@accent.net Avo Djihanian
albert_s...@juno.com albert soltanian
ALEC...@aol.com
alec_t...@qmail.newbridge.com Alec Tashjian
al...@mindspring.com Alen Kirkorian
al...@hpla-gw1.amilink.net Alexander Adamian
ale...@ccwf.cc.utexas.edu Alexis Takvorian
ALEX...@hcc01.babson.edu
alex...@UNCWIL.EDU Moorad Alexanian
Alf...@aol.com
al...@leland.Stanford.EDU Aline Tina Derdiarian
al...@bu.edu
al...@wam.umd.edu Armen Thomasian
am0...@jove.acs.unt.edu Anita Moussa
AMAN...@aua.am Aregnazan Manoucharian
AMAR...@aua.am AREG MARGARIAN
amar...@trumpet.aix.calpoly.edu Amanda Markarian
amav...@cymbal.aix.calpoly.edu Amy Maurine Avakian
amir...@ea.oac.uci.edu Annie Mirzaians
ana...@tufenk.arminco.com
anal...@ucla.edu Armine Nalbandyan
ANAZ...@aua.am ARMEN NAZARIAN
Andranik...@bc.sympatico.ca Andranik Hyrapet
and...@andrew.cmu.edu Andre Violentyev
andr...@leland.Stanford.EDU Andrew Vardanian
angr...@ix.netcom.com Greg Petrosyan
Ani.Ar...@lablang-ulp.u-strasbg.fr Ani Armenian
a...@ucla.edu ANNIE DER GRIGORIAN
ani_al...@imail.PCSCOMPLEAT.COM
an...@armpress.arminco.com
Anna_An...@brown.edu Anna Andresian
an...@hsc.usc.edu Annet Bedikian
Antoine....@geocan.emr.ca Terjanian, Antoine
antr...@cytanet.com.cy Antranik Ashdjian
AOR...@aua.am ANAHIT ORDIAN
ap4...@american.edu Ani Petrossian
APET...@aua.am ARMEN PETROSIAN
apra...@bc.edu Tamar Rose Aprahamian
ar...@freenet.carleton.ca Garo Senyildiz
a...@hooked.net Ara Harmandarian
a...@wishbone.Corp.Sun.COM Ara Tehlirian
ara...@lab.hsl.ecu.edu Aram Alexanian
Ara...@aol.com
aram.ho...@newdomain.com ARAM HOVAGIMIAN
ar...@nic.NK.AM Aram R. Khalapyan
ara...@lts.sel.alcatel.de Aramas Yarijanian KS/EIC1 60/2/162 #49189
Ara...@aol.com
aram...@ea.oac.uci.edu Aram Chaparyan
ara...@foreigner.class.udg.mx Ara Avedis Minassian
ARAM...@aol.com
ara...@wordnet.att.net Marine Manucharyan
ar...@arminco.com
ar...@media.mit.edu Araz "H.I.C." Inguilizian
arba...@juno.com Shant A margarossian
ar...@intranet.ca Ardak H. Karamanokian
ar...@mozart.physics.ncsu.edu Areg Danagoulian
are...@MIT.EDU
Areg_Gha...@parsons.com Areg Gharabegian
are...@viamtl.com Viken Afarian
ari...@ucla.edu Arin Aboulian
ar...@MIT.EDU
ar...@armpress.arminco.com
ar...@svg.NK.AM armen
arm...@ucla.edu armen babajanian
arm...@linkonline.net Armen Gezalyan
Arm...@aol.com
arm...@nic.NK.AM Armine Gh. Alexanian
ar...@LPL.Arizona.EDU Armis via boson
armp...@arminco.com
arno....@utoronto.ca Arno Siraki
aro...@earthlink.net Armen Aroyan
ar...@earthlink.net Arpi Karsian
Arpie.Dek...@infores.com Arpie Dekirmenjian
Ar...@aol.com
ar...@arminco.com
ar...@nic.NK.AM Arsen Egiyan
ars...@ucla.edu
ar...@Pathfinder.hsc.usc.edu Artin Nebel Rebekale
art...@scf-fs.usc.edu arting
art...@nic.NK.AM FreeBSD -- AROL
art...@zilker.net Tina+Ken
as...@lafn.org Mher Sassouni
a...@scms.rgu.ac.uk Apkar Salatian
a...@scf.usc.edu USC ASA
asa...@hooked.net Alex Sardar
ASAR...@aua.am Ann Sarkissian
asa...@wam.umd.edu Ara Asatoorian
as...@nic.NK.AM ASBAR Travel Co.
as...@skat.usc.edu Asbed Bedrossian
asda...@eos.ncsu.edu
ase...@ucla.edu
Ash...@aol.com
as...@hpla-gw1.amilink.net Ashot Movsisjan
a...@ucla.edu Ani Melidonian
atas...@scf-fs.usc.edu Aline Taslakian
ATON...@aua.am Aram Tonoyan
AUA...@aua.am Vahan Aroyan
av...@freenet.carleton.ca Van Mardian
av...@freenet.carleton.ca Sdepan Terjanian
AVar...@aol.com
ava...@earthlink.net Vatche Akrakyan
av...@tti.com Avo
awa...@juno.com
ay...@aub.edu.lb ARI-AVEDIS TCHEUREKDJIAN
ay...@ucla.edu AYUNA KARAPOGOSYAN
azou...@dm.net.lb Akram Azoury
B3...@MUSICB.MCGILL.CA MANICHAIKUL,MARIAM WANG,MS
b336...@cmontmorency.qc.ca l'utilisateur du poste 07 du laboratoire B-3369
bab...@scf-fs.usc.edu babian
BADR...@bentley.edu
bagh...@scf-fs.usc.edu Peter Baghdassarian
bala...@nortel.ca vahe (v.) balabanian
bal...@scf-fs.usc.edu Jaclyn Balian
bal...@rousseau.informatik.uni-duisburg.de Nelson Baloian
balt...@scf-fs.usc.edu baltaian
bar...@wsunix.wsu.edu Haugen
bars...@students.uiuc.edu levon barseghyan
bar...@snowmass.Stanford.EDU Bartev Vartanian
bau...@Altera.COM Brent Austin
bb...@lafn.org Sarkis Kevanian
BBAB...@aua.am Babken Babayan
BBulb...@aol.com
bdem...@ucla.edu Berj Demirjian
bed...@superman.cig.mot.com
Bedi...@aol.com
bed...@icf.llnl.gov Bedros B. Afeyan
bed...@internetdevelopment.com Bedros Bedrosian
bed...@sprynet.com
be...@pop.wam.umd.edu Tigran Khrimian
ben...@total.net Benpak Plastics Inc.
be...@Finnigan.Com Berg Tehlirian
BigG...@aol.com
bi...@psnw.com Bijan Jalali
bil...@ma.ultranet.com Bill Mesrobian
b...@herbison.com B.J. Herbison
bk...@freenet.carleton.ca Garbis Armen
bkaz...@violin.aix.calpoly.edu Belinda Kazanci
BMIR...@aua.am Bagrat Mirakian
bml...@umich.edu Brian Michael Lutz
bna...@msce.nk.am
bob...@linux.ceu.edu.pl bobrova
bob_pa...@juno.com
Bol...@aol.com
Bone...@aol.com
bo...@datasync.com Martin H. Booda
boom...@holly.colostate.edu Tony Pieknik
boya...@intranet.com David Boyajian
bra...@tiac.com silencer
bru...@ararat.bu.edu Bruce Boghosian
bs...@freenet.carleton.ca Alexander Gamarian
BUD...@aol.com
busi...@ours.com Diran A Afarian
caf...@total.net Raffi Aharonian
CARZ...@aua.am TITI
cdagd...@genetics.com Chris Dagdigian
cde...@bu.edu Christopher Derderian
cd...@intercall.net cdmlb
C...@aua.am Carl E. Grigorian
cen...@arminco.com
Cha...@aol.com
Charch...@programart.com
Chilin...@themall.net Neal Chilingirian
chsu...@comhiway.com karine isabella macri
CH...@aua.am Chuck Specht
cmel...@top.eng.utoledo.edu Chris Melkonian
cn...@freenet.carleton.ca Sidney Witiuk
coha...@harp.aix.calpoly.edu Cadee Ann Ohanesian
con...@armpress.arminco.com
Coo...@aol.com
Cor...@ix.netcom.com Steve
cow...@leland.Stanford.EDU John Edwin Berberian
cq...@utxdp.dp.utexas.edu Weatherly D Whitestone
crea...@juno.com JIRAYR SARKISSIAN
cr...@ucla.edu Crist Khachikian
ctor...@cymbal.aix.calpoly.edu Charles G Tornaci
cva...@bu.edu Carol Vartanian
cy...@musica.mcgill.ca D. Sakayan
CYPRO...@aol.com
dadouri...@ic.gc.ca Dadourian, Jack: DGSE
dagd...@woods.uml.edu
dan...@grm94.polymtl.ca Hossein DANESH
dan...@vlsi.concordia.ca
Daniel
Danie...@omri.cz Emil Danielyan
da...@scf-fs.usc.edu Danny Khatchaturian
datas...@hotmail.com Manuk Manukian
Da...@aol.com
david...@themall.net David Shakhnazaryan
dav...@scf-fs.usc.edu Harma Davtian
d...@capsela.modulus.com David Berberian Jr.
d...@urartu.sdpa.org David Davidian
d...@earthlink.net DBK-Pinnacle, Inc.
d...@panix.com David W. Crawford
ddav...@math.umbc.edu David S. Davtian
dd...@ucla.edu Derik Alexanians
d...@bu.edu Deborah Brisbin
debr...@juno.com DEBRA L BOYADJIAN
dek...@dm.net.lb Kriko K.
des...@blkbox.COM
df...@mmn.com john
dg...@freenet.carleton.ca Sheila Y. Terjanian
DGK...@aol.com
dha...@hal-pc.org David L. Hanson
DicGo...@aol.com
dick...@csufresno.edu Dickran Kouymjian
Digi...@zen.ocean.com.au Michael Hovivyan
diki...@scf-fs.usc.edu Sevag Dikijian
DIKRAM...@ACAD.WIT.EDU
dik...@csolve.net Dikran J. Abrahamian
dik...@eden.rutgers.edu Dikran Hovagimian
dik...@risotto.mit.edu Dikran
DK...@aol.com
dkal...@state.ma.us
dkar...@trumpet.aix.calpoly.edu c
dm...@freenet.carleton.ca Anoush Terjanian
donabe...@bcbsri.e-mail.com DONABEDIAN.N@BCBSRI
DON...@EMF.Lan.McGill.CA GAREN MIKIRDITSIAN
d...@thelen.org Christopher Dow
dra...@moon.YerPhI.AM Samvel Z. Abelian
dre...@mohra.arminco.com
drfa...@worldnet.att.net Tsovinar Mkrtchyan
dro...@physics.Berkeley.EDU David Roundy
DTWR...@cw-f1.umd.umich.edu David Thomas Wright
DUP...@hcc01.babson.edu
DYED...@aua.am David Yedigarian
e96g...@sirius.ceu.hu ANAHIT GASPARIAN
EADI...@aua.am Edgar Adilkhanian
Ec...@aol.com
e...@aic.net edd
ed...@macedonia.uom.gr Edgar Manukyan
Edw...@sovyug.arminco.com
ei...@bu.edu mandy stone
ekme...@scf-fs.usc.edu Taline Ekmekjian
ekra...@umich.edu Edward Fabian Kralian
ela...@gem.u-strasbg.fr Aram Elagoz
elis...@ucla.edu
Elise.K...@mail.house.gov Kenderian, Elise
elm...@linux.ceu.edu.pl Elmira Hovhannesian
elo...@u.arizona.edu
elr...@leland.Stanford.EDU Joe El Rady
em4...@email.csun.edu edith mirzakhanian
Eman...@aol.com
en...@CS.Princeton.EDU E. Ender Bilir
EPOG...@aua.am EDWARD POGOSSIAN
ep...@connecti.com .
EQG7G...@unl.ac.uk
erde...@bu.edu Ara Erdekian
ere...@pacificnet.net Harout Hovakimyan
erz...@rpi.edu Lokman Erzen
esk...@email.csun.edu INSOMNIACS \"creatures of the night\"
etka...@ea.oac.uci.edu Elizabeth Tamar Karian
etoh...@ea.oac.uci.edu Elizabeth Nora Tohikian
ev...@ipia.sci.am Evgueni A. Haroutunian
ey...@aub.edu.lb Elias Daaboul
fa...@hcc01.babson.edu Fredy Akal
fd2...@alpha.rwu.edu Fotini Dionisopoulos
fkha...@qualcomm.com Farrokh Khatibi
fr...@cam.org Fred Purkey
frim...@sluaxa.slu.edu Lilia Frimer
frsh...@ea.oac.uci.edu Alain Arthur Karaguezian
gabi...@ucla.edu Patrik Gabikian
gail...@panix.com Ed Gaillard
garb...@engin.umich.edu Adam R Garbooshian
Garen_...@msn.com Garen Arevian
Garen_Kotikian/CAM/Lotus...@crd.lotus.com Garen Kotikian/CAM/Lotus
gar...@ucla.edu Garni Barkhoudarian
Gar...@aol.com
gar...@bu.edu Garo Der Hagopian
GASL...@aua.am GARRY ASLANIAN
gasp...@scf-fs.usc.edu Anna Gaspayran
GAVA...@aua.am GOHAR AVAKIAN
gba...@ucla.edu garine babian
ge...@juno.com Bruddah J
gei...@MIT.EDU David A. Geiger
gem...@themall.net Lusine & Jasmine
Geoff...@aol.com
gevo...@hsc.usc.edu Gevorkyan
GGOL...@aua.am Gayane Goltukchian
gh...@ea.oac.uci.edu Vahe Ghookassian
gi...@webbernet.net Rodney / Barb Gish
glis...@pepperdine.edu Gina Lisitsa
glor...@cybercom.net Harry Glorikian
GMAN...@aua.am Gevorg Manaseryan
gmou...@ucla.edu GARABET MOUMDJIAN
gnah...@bion.procept.com Gabe Nahigian
GOGA...@aua.am Gohar Oganesian
gos...@fhs.csu.McMaster.CA Lydia Goshgarian
GOTT...@ca-f1.umd.umich.edu Gerald E. Ottenbreit Jr.
GOUL...@bentley.edu
gov...@lucent.com Murad A Meneshian
GRAD...@ULVACS.ULAVERNE.EDU
grca...@total.net Ara Albert Khatcherian
gr...@nic.NK.AM Gregor K. Begidjanian
gre...@ids.net
gre...@arminco.com
g...@helmholtz.stanford.edu Gerard Ketefian
g...@io.org gregory tsoutsas
guev...@it.uwp.edu Arman Guevorkian
guka...@ix.netcom.com David Gukasian
gun...@tigger.cc.uic.edu O.P.
GURD...@hcc01.babson.edu E-mail: Gurd...@hcc01.babson.edu
Guzelian...@mail.ndhm.gtegsc.com Guzelian Michael
ha...@pop.loop.com hagop bartanian
hag...@leland.Stanford.EDU Hagop
HAGO...@vaxvmsx.babson.edu TANYA HAGOPIAN
hago...@outwest.net Hagop Nalbandian
HagopT...@msn.com Hagop Toroyan
haig.p...@wcom.com Haig Panoyan
ha...@ghost.arminco.com
haiv...@hsc.usc.edu HILDA
haj...@husc.harvard.edu Aram Hajian
ham...@ucla.edu hAmBiK
han...@scf.usc.edu hang le
ha...@juno.com Harout Jarchafjian
har...@hpla-gw1.amilink.net Harout Zmblian
har...@earthlink.net Harout Sousani
har...@primenet.com H. R. Sarkissian
Harry.T...@il.us.swissbank.com
ha...@zoo.net Harry Dikranian
ha...@MIT.EDU Vigain Harutunian
HA...@PSUVM.PSU.EDU Haiduke Sarafian
has...@cyberia.net.lb hasmig garabedian
has...@worldlink.ca Hasmig Adjeleian
has...@ISL.Stanford.EDU Babak Hassibi
has...@earthlink.net Hassie Yankelovich
ha...@hpla-gw1.amilink.net Hayk Karamyan
hbac...@email.csun.edu lillit cholakian
hbbi...@email.csun.edu ovanes manucharyan
hbbi...@email.csun.edu gevork gabrelian
hbbi...@email.csun.edu henrik derhartonian
hbbu...@email.csun.edu Dikran \"Richard\" Maybalian
hbch...@email.csun.edu alina akopyan
hbcs...@email.csun.edu JunoMan
hbcs...@email.csun.edu sebo hamamah
hbcs...@email.csun.edu Akop Karapetyan
hbcs...@email.csun.edu hasmik shakaryan
hbec...@email.csun.edu TSAVT TANEM
hbec...@email.csun.edu haykaz yazdzhyan
hb...@earthlink.net Harry S Bedevian
hbmk...@email.csun.edu raffi sosikian
hbpo...@email.csun.edu paola lais
hbps...@email.csun.edu anita avedian
hbun...@email.csun.edu Arvin Davtian
hcha...@student.med.harvard.edu
herag.j....@ac.com herag.j.haleblian
HGAL...@aua.am Hrayr Galoyan
HHAK...@aua.am HAKOB HAKOBIAN
hit...@inco.com.lb HI - TECH COMPUTER SERVICES
HMAR...@aua.am Haik Martirosian
hor...@ghost.arminco.com
HOV...@aol.com
ho...@moon.YerPhI.AM
HOVS...@BINAH.CC.BRANDEIS.EDU
Hovs...@mail.dec.com Vartkes Hovsepian
hr...@nic.NK.AM Hrach Arzumanian
Hrach_A...@onesource.com Hrach Alexanian
Hrai...@aol.com
hr...@hpla-gw1.amilink.net Hrant Marandjian
hr...@sim.arminco.com
H...@soas.ac.uk Hovann Simonian
hte...@ucla.edu Ter-minasyan hasmik jasmine
hun...@ozemail.com.au Manoug Demirjian
HVAR...@aua.am Hovhannes Vardanian
hvar...@ucla.edu Henrik Vartani
hwar...@flute.aix.calpoly.edu Houri Vartanian 'HYE Aghchig'
h...@sprynet.com EDMOND
hye...@uclink4.berkeley.edu Patrick Masihi
HYE...@aol.com
HYE...@aol.com
h_d...@alcor.concordia.ca h_danes
h_v...@alcor.concordia.ca DON JUAN
ig...@nic.NK.AM Igor L. Zakharian
IMKR...@aua.am IGOR MKRTOUMIAN
ingr...@linux.ceu.edu.pl ingrida
in...@arminco.com
is...@snet.net Ed Odjaghian
ISKA...@bentley.edu
iv...@uma.arminco.com
jac...@ix.netcom.com Abramian/DerSimonian
jan...@webtv.net janet Salbashian
Jaz...@aol.com
jbar...@trumpet.aix.calpoly.edu Joseph Lee Barsoian
jboy...@umich.edu James Richard Boynton
jc...@cornell.edu
JC...@aol.com
jdag...@isd.3com.com
jdp...@qnis.net john pash
jfig...@trumpet.aix.calpoly.edu Jose Luis Figueroa
jfit...@umich.edu Jay Fitzgerald Apoian
j...@tsd1.tracor.com Kurkjian, John (Tracor MS Mail)
j...@europa.umuc.edu
JJN...@prodigy.com MR MICHAEL D BEBIRIAN
jjva...@suffolk.lib.ny.us Vartanian
jkat...@ea.oac.uci.edu Jeff Edmund Katcherian
jmda...@MIT.EDU
joe...@juno.com dcgh ghb dhxvhnxb
Joe_Dagdigian/US/3Com%3C...@smtp1.isd.3com.com Joe Dagdigian/US/3Com
john.ayne...@attws.com John Aynejian
joh...@voicenet.com John Vosbikian
John_Kaleshian/US/3Com%3C...@smtp1.isd.3com.com John Kaleshian/US/3Com
jpd...@ma.ultranet.com John Dagdigian
Jpe...@ritenet.com John peter
j...@nlis.net Paul Proudian
jp...@polymail.cpunix.calpoly.edu Jon Port
jrc...@inco.com.lb Esther Zoroghlian
j...@idiom.com Michael Craft
jta...@fletch.fix.net Jessica Tabor
kala...@scf-fs.usc.edu kalachia
KALA...@bentley.edu
kara...@pweh.com Karakachian, Roupen N
kara...@bc.edu Raffi Karakashian
kara...@hca.nk.am
ka...@hpla-gw1.amilink.net Karen Darbinian
ka...@nic.NK.AM Karen Tunibekyan
ka...@quantum.stanford.edu Karen Chaltikian
kari...@U.Arizona.EDU Dana Karibian
kar...@netmedia.net.il Karnig
ka...@ICSL.UCLA.EDU
kas...@space.mit.edu Fred Kasparian
kass...@scf-fs.usc.edu Jirayr Kassabian
kaza...@ucsu.Colorado.EDU KAZARIAN LEVON
kbagh...@hcc01.babson.edu Karni Baghdikian
Ke...@aol.com
ke...@seas.ucla.edu Kerop Janoyan
kesa...@ea.oac.uci.edu . DurDur
Keshm...@worldnet.att.net Andre Keshmeshian
keui...@scf-fs.usc.edu keuilian
kevork....@ping.be Kevork K. Oskanian
kev...@ath.forthnet.gr KEVORK
kezi...@morgan.com
k...@umich.edu Krikor Garo Arman II
kg...@pop.tiac.net Najarian
KGR...@aua.am Karine Grigorian
kha...@umich.edu Alex Khachaturian
khac...@scf-fs.usc.edu Reynold
KHEK...@aua.am Kim Hekimian
ki...@netcom.com Kim DeVaughn
KIO...@PRODIGY.COM MR ROOM 426
KKET...@us.oracle.com kket...@us.oracle.com
kmar...@sloc.net Kevork Markarian
KMOU...@aua.am KARINE MOURADIAN
KOGA...@aua.am DrVLM
koj...@ix.netcom.com Raffi Kojian
ko...@sain.org
KOP...@neesnet.com
kp...@bu.edu
ks3...@email.csun.edu kamelia sarkisian-nazarian
KSAR...@aua.am Karine Sarkisian
KSIM...@aua.am Karen Simonian
kutc...@gusun.acc.georgetown.edu Yervant Kutchukian
kzad...@ucla.edu KATRIN ZADHAMBARSOOMIANS
kzir...@sas.upenn.edu Andrew D Kzirian
k_kat...@adm.me.org
LAL...@cw-f1.umd.umich.edu Lisa
lamb...@execpc.com Cynthia Soukiasian
la...@VNET.IBM.COM
LA...@aua.am Laserain Tekhnika
la_r...@ix.netcom.com
LBAG...@aua.am Lousine Baghdasarian
lboya...@kiwi.dep.anl.gov Lucie Boyadjian
LCHO...@aua.am Levon Chorbajian
l...@zk3.dec.com Larry Smith
lehm...@bc.edu Nadia Maria Lehmejian
lepi...@nic.NK.AM Levon Episkoposian
Lev...@aol.com
le...@wiwi.hu-berlin.de Levon Shahbaghyan
lev...@ix.netcom.com
lfre...@sd.com Lisa Freeman
lgri...@ea.oac.uci.edu Lilit Grigoryan
li...@ucla.edu LILIT MKRTCHYAN
li...@ucla.edu Lina Davidian
li...@bu.edu Charles Vaughan
Liza...@aol.com
lkar...@ucla.edu lara kartalian
l...@ucla.edu LAURA MARILYN OSBORN
lo...@pacbell.net Hagop J. Bedrossian
lora...@accent.net Richard Tokatlian
lo...@ucla.edu lorig shoushan janoyan
loul...@juno.com Lucien G Boyadjian
lo...@ix.netcom.com Loulu
l...@info.tpa.amilink.net Levon Abrahamyan
ls...@nic.NK.AM POP user gov.nk.am
lst...@inforamp.net Lesley Stubbs
lule...@ucla.edu Armine Lulejian
lulu...@ix.netcom.com
l...@arminco.com
l...@mfa.nk.am News Administrator
lvma...@ea.oac.uci.edu Laura Violette Markarian
lw4...@cr47c.staffs.ac.uk I Choose My Own Endings......
LYEG...@aua.am Lana Yeganova
macc...@ithaca.edu MACCURDY
mach...@scf-fs.usc.edu macharya
MAGH...@aua.am MAGDA AGHABABIAN
mall...@earthlink.net Mvses Boyadjian
man...@point-net.com Berdge (Arto) Manoukian
marg...@scf-fs.usc.edu margarya
mar...@ids.net Margaret Chevian
Maria.Na...@mcmsf.med.nyu.edu
mari...@linux.ceu.edu.pl Maria Gissina
mar...@ucla.edu marine galudzhyan
Mark_...@colpal.com Mark Gavoor
mar...@pacbell.net Aaron Marquez
mar...@superaje.com
mart...@hulaw1.harvard.edu Arthur Martirosyan
mar...@rpi.edu S.Marvasti
mase...@cleo.bc.edu
mas...@earthlink.net SEV
mats...@bu.edu Matthew Smith
ma...@blume.Stanford.EDU
mazm...@jmu.edu Mazmanian, Aram P
mcha...@violin.aix.calpoly.edu Meline Marie Chakalian
MChi...@aol.com
mci...@sfsu.edu MARAL CINGOZ
me-...@stn17.me.calpoly.edu Paul Kizirian
mec...@sci.am Institute of Mechanics
megh...@gusun.acc.georgetown.edu Mira Meghdessian
ME...@vxcern.cern.ch
m...@ziplink.net Steve Mesrobian
mgar...@ucla.edu MELANYA GARIBYAN
m...@nic.NK.AM Mher V. Djangirian
mguiz...@TARGETVISION.COM Mary Guizirian
mh...@ipia.sci.am Mariam E. Haroutunian
mich...@juno.com James M Darragh
mic...@stokes.harvard.edu Michael T. Kezirian
Mickayel_...@brown.edu Mickayel Mkrtchian
Micr...@aol.com
mih...@amicus.com Mihran Aroian
m...@dip.nk.am
mika...@students.uwlax.edu Mikaelian A Silva
mika...@students.uwlax.edu vache mikaelian
MIN...@MLH.CA Minas Kalachian
mina...@gusun.acc.georgetown.edu Anita Minassian
mirz...@castor.usc.edu Alen Mirzakhanyan
mi...@arminco.com Vanush 'Misha' Paturian
mjen...@algebra.com Michael Jenkins
mko...@po-box.mcgill.ca
mkur...@tuba.aix.calpoly.edu Marale Kurkeyerian
mlp...@lodinet.com M.P.
mmes...@apcc.com Mark Mesrobian
MMIN...@aua.am MARTIN MINASIAN
m...@meteor-impact.com Michael Malione
mms...@wam.umd.edu Mona Simonian
mnaz...@ea.oac.uci.edu Melody Nazaryan
mne...@img.net Newman, Michael
mnic...@bu.edu Meline Nichols
moha...@eden.rutgers.edu Mohandas
mom...@ncc.moc.kw GOSDAN
mos...@ncc.moc.kw Alexander Sh. Mosesov
mrch...@mail.deltanet.com
MRR...@aol.com
m...@arminco.com
msal...@student.umass.edu
MSHI...@aua.am Martin Shirinian
MSMAIL3....@TSOD.LMIG.COM Hoosian-Lucy
mso...@mistik.express.net Mustafa Soysal MS57
MUSIC...@worldnet.att.net Gagik Adamyan
N...@wow.com Nemisis 2
na...@sprynet.com
NABA...@aua.am Narine Abazian
nade...@linux.ceu.edu.pl Nadia Manulik
nadj...@scf.usc.edu nadjaria
nah...@eclipsetg.com Roupen Nahabedian
na...@ucla.edu
naja...@fmgmt.mgmt.utoronto.ca garine najarian
napo...@earthlink.net Vachik Petrossian
nap...@videotron.ca THOMAS F HALLY
na...@ix.netcom.com Naryne Sahagian
nar...@shore.net Narbey Derbekyan
naza...@cleo.bc.edu
naza...@gusun.acc.georgetown.edu Nyieri Nazarian
na...@concentric.net Naz Keleshian
NBI...@wpo.it.luc.edu Nayiri Birazian
nei...@skat.usc.edu D. Alex Neilson
neu...@ttuhsc.edu Arthur A. Petrosian
ni...@cimio.co.uk Nick Waterman
nigo...@scf-fs.usc.edu nigoghos
ni...@mpd.com Nina Krikorian
nin...@wwa.com Peter Jasim
NMAR...@aua.am NAIRA MARTIROSSIAN
NMEL...@aua.am NARA MELKONIAN
nmos...@trumpet.aix.calpoly.edu Natalie Marie Mosesian
NMOV...@aua.am mednews
nora...@math.umbc.edu Dr. Heros Noravian
no...@armpress.arminco.com
npo...@worldnet.att.net Nannette Powell
nras...@notes.cc.bellcore.com Nerses Rastguelenian
n...@juno.com Narine Salatian
NSAL...@aua.am Naz
NSTE...@aua.am Nvard Stepanian
nter...@scf.usc.edu nterogan
ny...@worldy.com.plugplay.com K. Kirk Odabashian
nyr...@wsunix.wsu.edu Derderian
Nyrie_Paloulian/CAM/Lo...@crd.lotus.com
oc...@voyager0.Stanford.EDU Neha Gupta
odja...@scf-fs.usc.edu odjakhia
oh...@link.com.eg Ohan Mirhan
oktany...@worldnet.att.net Artur Oktanyan
on...@golden.net Onik Sevatzian
Or...@aol.com
Ost...@aol.com
p.j....@reading.ac.uk Phill Isles
pa...@leland.Stanford.EDU Armen Ryan Panossian
pano...@cip1.uni-hannover.de Ara Panosyan
PARA...@bc.sympatico.ca ARMAN MEDADIAN
par...@emirates.net.ae Bob Parseghian
pa...@lcs.mit.edu Patrick J. LoPresti
pa...@ucla.edu paula grigorian
pa...@scf-fs.usc.edu paulk
Paul_P...@fsec.asrc.com Paul Parunyan
PBAD...@aua.am Parandzem Badalian
PBX...@prodigy.com MR ROBERT PRAKOUSHIAN
pg...@nic.NK.AM Pavel Gevorkian
pie...@rahul.net Pierre Uszynski
pie...@pop.ben2.ucla.edu Pierre Kouyoumdjian
pil...@WPI.EDU Haig Aram Altoonian
p...@airportz.arminco.com
polr...@ix.netcom.com MIECZ - S#AWOMIR
PPV...@prodigy.com MR CHRISTOPHER V SOLAKIAN
Pria_H...@brown.edu Pria Hidisyan
pr...@armpress.arminco.com
prof...@bu.edu James Profestas
p...@ps.nk.am POP user ps.nk.am
public....@email.csun.edu CSUN Library Public Station
ra...@tv.nk.am
raf...@storm.ca Rafael Adam Wugalter
ra...@metaverse.com Raffi
raf...@MIT.EDU Raffi Krikorian
Raffi_...@notes.providian.com Raffi Momjian
ra...@idirect.com Raffy Bekmezian
ra...@uclink4.berkeley.edu rafik sarkissian
ram...@ecf.toronto.edu Ganapathiraju Sree Ramana Gopal
ra...@ee.mcgill.ca Razmig Kechichian
r...@styx.aic.net Ran d'Adi
raq...@ea.oac.uci.edu Raquel Keledjian
raz...@corel.ca Razmik Zargarian
rbab...@bu.edu richard babayan
rbol...@cymbal.aix.calpoly.edu Raffi Boloyan
re...@mando.engr.sgi.com John Relph
ren...@synapse.net Renaud Bouret
RGAS...@aua.am RUBINA GASPARIAN
rgri...@ucla.edu RAMELA GRIGORIAN
ri...@bcm.tmc.edu Richard H. Miller
Rita_Ye...@brown.edu Rita
RKAR...@aua.am Ruben Karapetian
rk...@mn.com Alim
rkha...@skat.usc.edu Rey Khachatourian
rko...@tznet.com Ryan Kocian
rkot...@norwood.intellution.com
rko...@PO-Box.McGill.CA
Rob...@aol.com
r...@mn.com Ali
rou...@math.umbc.edu
rou...@compugraphic.com roubenm
roza...@bu.edu Rosalynn Avakian
rs...@ariel.Princeton.EDU Robert Sandberg
rtho...@tuba.aix.calpoly.edu Roobik Thorossian
r...@mn.com ben
Ruben.I...@cerge.cuni.cz Israelyan Ruben
rvki...@students.uiuc.edu raffi vart killian
s102...@cedarnet.cedarville.edu Joel Andrew Misirian
s110...@aix2.uottawa.ca Anna Barberini
s68...@stud-mail.uni-wuerzburg.de
s99...@jinx.umsl.edu SIMONIAN
sa...@earthlink.net Screen Actors Guild - Producers Pension & Health Plans
sah...@ucla.edu tamar der-sahakian
sain...@bus.yorku.ca SEBOUH AINTABLAIN
SA...@msn.com Sarkis Keshishyan
SAlex...@aol.com
s...@mil.nk.am Sam R. Mailian
Samvel....@cerge.cuni.cz Khudoyan Samvel
sara...@tower.lcs.mit.edu Alex Sarafian
sar...@ucla.edu Sareen Bezdikian
sar...@juno.com John S Boyadjian
sa...@wsunix.wsu.edu Sarkis Mahdasian
sasad...@juno.com Serop Asadurian
sa...@bioch.tamu.edu Alex Simonian
sat...@sipc03.utc.fr Isabelle Satchlian (GI05-A95)
sato...@scf-fs.usc.edu satooria
sava...@nic.NK.AM Sergey Avanesyan
sa...@sonetis.com SAYK MANAGEMENT CONSULTANTS
SBa...@aol.com
sba...@bu.edu Shant Baran
sb...@actwin.com sbase
sb...@hotmail.com sB ase
SBMa...@aol.com
sche...@U.Arizona.EDU Sergey Y Chemishkian
seap...@ucla.edu Seapahn Meguerdichian
sefe...@ziplink.net Alan V. Seferian
SE...@worldnet.att.net SELMA IANTOSCA
sel...@ucla.edu MONIQUE NAIRI SELVIAN
serah@@sgipro.amicus.com serah
seri...@scf.usc.edu Serineh Voskanian
ser...@worldnet.att.net csaro
se...@ucla.edu Seta Kazandjian
set...@ucla.edu setta seropian
se...@cs.brandeis.edu Sevan Ficici
sev...@sfsu.edu SEVANA BAGDASARIAN
Sev...@aol.com
sev...@siu.edu sevy
SGON...@aua.am Shavarsh Gondakian
sh...@total.net Armen Forget
Sha...@aol.com
shal...@math.wisc.edu stanislav shalunov
SHAN...@aol.com
sh...@leland.Stanford.EDU Shant Mathios Vartanian
sha...@scf-fs.usc.edu sharisk
sheldon...@FMR.Com Watson, Sheldon
sh...@nyx.net Shrisha Rao
sick...@ea.oac.uci.edu Michael Sam Chitjian
Silv...@aol.com
Sina...@scf-fs.usc.edu Varduhi Sinanyan
SISKAN...@clarku.edu
sk...@aub.edu.lb Saro Dishjekenian
SKHA...@aua.am Souren Khachatrian
skir...@lynx.dac.neu.edu Gangster of Love
skod...@flute.aix.calpoly.edu Shaghig Sheri Kodbachian
skoo...@ea.oac.uci.edu Shant Koocherian
sko...@essex.ac.uk S Kosian
sma...@PO-Box.McGill.CA
smad...@flute.aix.calpoly.edu S. K. Madoski
smik...@bu.edu Susan Mikaelian
smoo...@juno.com Nazo Haroutunian
smur...@ucla.edu Lori Soghomonian
snaj...@undergrad.math.uwaterloo.ca Shirag Najarian
spar...@pacbell.net User
sp...@easynet.co.uk Spud
sr...@csufresno.edu Steven Adams
ssan...@violin.aix.calpoly.edu Shahan Sanossian ()
ssar...@bu.edu sabina sarkisyan
ssou...@ea.oac.uci.edu SHEILA ... MY IDOL
sst...@bu.edu Sevak Stepanian
st.vi...@juno.com Ara A Afarian
ST93...@PIP.CC.BRANDEIS.EDU CHRISTINE MANAVIAN
ST94...@PIP.CC.BRANDEIS.EDU
ST94...@PIP.CC.BRANDEIS.EDU
ST94...@PIP.CC.BRANDEIS.EDU
ST95...@PIP.CC.BRANDEIS.EDU
ST95...@PIP.CC.BRANDEIS.EDU MARY ARUTYUNYAN
stai...@bga.com Dwight Brown
sta...@stamper.com Chris Stamper
sta...@stamps.webstamp.com WebStampers, Etc.
Step...@aol.com
st...@loa.com Stephanie Mesrobian
ST...@HAZ.batnet.com STEVE HAZARABEDIAN
STEV...@sea.samsung.com Steve Panosian - CE P.M. Mgr
stu...@cw-f1.umd.umich.edu Student
sula...@dm.net.lb Roupen Sulahian
svadamian...@worldnet.att.net Serge Adamian
s...@wam.umd.edu saro vartan kalayjian
Swed...@msn.com Manuel Keusseyan
Sylva_B...@discreet.com
sy...@aub.edu.lb
sy...@aub.edu.lb Said Riachy
s_...@alcor.concordia.ca SARO DER BEDROSSIAN
ta...@draziw.com Ryan
tahm...@scf-fs.usc.edu Sam
tahm...@bsr.com Fred Tahmasian
t...@leland.Stanford.EDU Paul Harout Kitabjian
Tak...@aol.com
takv...@oxy.edu Kristine Takvoryan
ta...@MIT.EDU
tal...@ucla.edu Taline Parunyan
TALKI...@msn.com lLAZARUS SURABIAN
tam...@umich.edu Tamar Ani Mishigian
Tamar_Ma...@archdigest.com Tamar Mahshigian
tape...@andrew.cmu.edu Teni Apelian
tau...@ghost.arminco.com
tav...@DMI.USherb.CA Harout Tavitian
tero...@scf.usc.edu terogane
terro...@juno.com Hagop Sarkissian
te...@uma.arminco.com
the...@access.digex.net Bagrat Bayburtian
THKH...@aua.am Thereza Khorozian
tig...@hollywood.laserctr.okstate.edu
tin...@leland.Stanford.EDU Tina M. Fan
tk5...@email.csun.edu
tko...@icarus.cc.uic.edu Taleen Koumriqian
tm...@sun3.math.umbc.edu Tigran N. Markaryan
tmi...@essex.ac.uk Tigran Minasyan
t...@ucla.edu Tamar Ouzounian
Tom....@ircam.fr Tom Mays
tor...@ropnet.ru Tormentor
tor...@Planmatics.COM Toros Babikian
toro...@MIT.EDU
tpet...@ucla.edu Tony Petrossian
tr...@arminco.com
tro...@leland.Stanford.EDU Cynthia Osmanian
tros...@ea.oac.uci.edu Tenny Rostomian
try...@msmail4.hac.com Ryan, Teresa J
tsci...@juno.com Theresa Sciallo
tup...@azstarnet.com Matt Vasgersian
t...@nic.NK.AM Radio Tv1 TV programm
twar...@harp.aix.calpoly.edu Tamar Vartanian
un...@arminco.com
unz...@physics.ucla.edu Nzhde Agazaryan
va9...@american.edu Verginie Amirkhanian
vac...@hic.net vache hovsapian
va...@dm.net.lb Vahan Kassardjian
va...@nic.aic.net Vahan Yerkanian
va...@aragil.arminco.com
va...@MIT.EDU
va...@swipnet.se Vahe Avetian
va...@interlog.com Vako & Zovig
val...@usc.edu Valaine Saito
val...@nic.NK.AM Valery M. Avanesian
Vanda.Gu...@uts.edu.au Vanda Guvlekjian
van...@hotmail.com Anybody Nobody
vara...@scf-fs.usc.edu varabian
var...@rpi.edu Antranik Vartanian
var...@leland.Stanford.EDU
vat...@vir.idx.com.au Vatche Topouzian
vat...@ozemail.com.au Vatche Demirjian
vbad...@ea.oac.uci.edu Vigen Badalyan
ver...@IAS.EDU Misha S Verbitsky
ver...@dm.net.lb Vicken Aharonian
veur...@scf-fs.usc.edu Vache
vhac...@WELLESLEY.EDU Vachik Hacopian
VHOK...@aua.am Varuzhan Hoktanian
vic...@ee.mcgill.ca Vicken Libarikian
Victor_...@BayNetworks.COM Victor Ganjian
vi...@arminco.com
VIK...@aol.com
vino...@linux.ceu.edu.pl Vinokurova Lilia
v...@juno.com varoujean salatian
vkup...@schoolph.umass..edu
vls...@vlsi.polymtl.ca
vpan...@ucla.edu Panossian
vpet...@stsci.edu Vahe Petrosian
vphi...@total.net vic
vr...@ix.netcom.com SBedrossian
vsg...@sac.uky.edu Vigen Ghazarian
vsha...@galaxy.csc.calpoly.edu Vahe Edwin Shahinian
vso...@service1.uky.edu Vladimir Sorokin
vvar...@ea.oac.uci.edu Vahag Vartanian
VZAK...@aua.am Vahagn Zakarian
w...@armpress.arminco.com
wha...@kiwi.dep.anl.gov Bill Hansen
woo...@inforamp.net Ed Wugalter
xey...@concentric.net Vardanyan
Yag...@aol.com
Yav...@aol.com
yavr...@scf-fs.usc.edu yavrouia
yman...@ea.oac.uci.edu Yan Manissadjian
YMEH...@aua.am YEPREM MEHRANIAN
yper...@blue.weeg.uiowa.edu Lena
YSHI...@aua.am Ervand Shirinian
yu11...@yorku.ca Vartan Ghazarian
yu12...@yorku.ca Edmond Gharibian-Saki
yykri...@worldnet.att.net Yogi Krikorian
Za...@viglen.co.uk Zareh Khachaturian
zar...@ucla.edu Zareh Sinanyan
zar...@segue.com Zareh Khachatourian
Zar...@earthlink.net Zareh Marzbetuny
zaro...@ucla.edu Pedro Zarokian
za...@hestia.ece.jhu.edu Zaven Kalayjian
zavo...@linux.ceu.edu.pl Inna Zavodinskaya
zia...@MIT.EDU
ZIV...@MEAKINS.Lan.McGill.CA Zivart Yasruel
zm...@ea.oac.uci.edu Nazo Semerdjian
zo...@gvsnet.com Zorik Avanessian
ZSA...@aol.com
Votes in error
------------------------------------------------------------------------------
ano...@HRZ.Uni-Bielefeld.DE
! Invalid address
cey...@coventry.ac.uk B. Ozdalyan
! No vote statement in message
ne...@mart.nk.am
! Invalid address
ne...@nkr.nk.am NKR newspaper
! Invalid address
nob...@essex.ac.uk nobody
! Invalid address
postm...@mmf.stu.neva.ru Sergius
! Invalid address
ro...@agio.baku.az S. Majumdar
! Invalid address
ro...@ans.baku.az Vugar Israfilofff
! Invalid address
ro...@atu.baku.az Active Trading Unternehmen
! Invalid address
ro...@bmboil.baku.az BMB Oil Azerbaijan
! Invalid address
ro...@fakt.baku.az Computer Technologies Co.
! Invalid address
ro...@impro.azerbaijan.su Postmaster
! Invalid address
ro...@indo.ece.wisc.edu Root
! Invalid address
ro...@intrans.baku.az Admin
! Invalid address
ro...@mia.nk.am
! Invalid address
ro...@qoch.sumqait.az Jalal Novruzov
! Invalid address
ro...@sbs.ygaz.tyumen.su Andrey A. Kurbatsky
! Invalid address
ro...@tufenk.arminco.com
! Invalid address
ro...@turan.azerbaijan.su Shahin Hajiyev
! Invalid address
ro...@unicef.baku.az UNICEF office in Baku
! Invalid address
ro...@vima.vladikavkaz.su Nazim S. Pashaev
! Invalid address
ro...@wasp.bio.metu.edu.tr Yavuz Darendelioglu
! Invalid address
ro...@zerken.azerbaijan.su Ayna-Zerkalo"newspapers
! Invalid address
why_vote_no?
some of the news.groups readers vote NO on *any* moderated news group
proposals, because of the following reasons:
some of the people involved in policy making and news groups creation
believe that
(a) "the moderators of the groups *own* their groups",
(b) "the moderators are mini dictators",
(c) "the existing moderators can refuse to any future reorganization
of a group even if they do not like the first letter of of the
last name of a proponent"
(d) and that no proposal for reorganization can ever be allowed if the
current moderator vetos it for *whatever* reasons, even if there is
a strong support for such a proposal. even a *vote* (CFV) can not
be released to guage the readership, unless the moderator agrees for
it.
in such circumstances, some believe that the usenet group creation process
is not mature enough to have moderated groups, and hence they vote NO.
gopal
Christopher B. Stone
> RESULT
> moderated group soc.culture.azerbaijan fails 1732:920
...and we now have another fine vote in the tradition of
soc.culture.macedonia and soc.culture.indian.jammu-kashmir.
News.groups is a paper tiger; no one raised any technical objections to
this RFD during the discussion phase, and indeed several news.groupies
praised it. Unfortunately, the Armenian community chose to torpedo this
group. The nationalist veto rears its ugly head once again.
Even if we eliminated half of the YES votes on the grounds that they, too,
might have been cast for political reasons, that still leaves more than
800 voters who said they wanted a group about Azeri culture. This
proposal would have given them a good one.
Folks, it is time to stop *talking* endlessly about the "nationalist
veto." It is time to DO something about it. In the short term, I call
upon Tale to overturn the results of this injustice. In the long term, I
call for the formation of a Usenet naming committee to dispense with the
silliness we now go through to create newsgroups.
To all you net.libertarians who insist "a naming committee would
disenfranchise Usenet readers," I saw this: right now, YOU, with your
foolish insistence on giving nationalists and net.kooks veto over
soc.culture.* newsgroups, YOU are disenfranchising Usenet readers. Once
again, irredentists have denied a small nation a forum in which to share
their culture. Worse, you net.libertarians are accomplices, because you
continually uphold a system that allows -- nay, encourages -- such
misdeeds to happen.
This outrage is tyranny of the majority at its finest.
Jay Denebeim
In article <5bbv2v$h...@cnn.Princeton.EDU>,
Christopher B. Stone <cbs...@flagstaff.princeton.edu> wrote:
>In article <853093...@uunet.uu.net>, Jim Davis <j...@primenet.com> wrote:
>
>> moderated group soc.culture.azerbaijan fails 1732:920
>In the short term, I call
>upon Tale to overturn the results of this injustice. In the long term, I
>call for the formation of a Usenet naming committee to dispense with the
>silliness we now go through to create newsgroups.
I agree that this is a big problem Chris. However, I don't agree with
your long-term solution.
The 500 yes votes rule is something that may work. Another thing is a
sliding scale.
On usenet, anyone should have a voice who wants one. That was the
intent.
Hmm, I just had a thought, the only legitimate reasons to vote no is a
lack of confidence in the moderator, namespace issues, or technical
issues, correct? Perhaps a line where the person says why they voted
no is sufficient to take care of this problem. If the vote taker
doesn't accept the reason for the no vote, they can pitch it.
Jay
--
* Jay Denebeim, Moderator, rec.arts.sf.tv.babylon5.moderated *
* newsgroup submission address: ras...@solon.com *
* moderator contact address: rastb5-...@solon.com *
* personal contact address: dene...@deepthot.cary.nc.us *
Russ Allbery
Jay Denebeim <dene...@deepthot.cary.nc.us> writes:
> On usenet, anyone should have a voice who wants one. That was the
> intent.
That was the intent of what? It certainly wasn't the intent of Usenet.
> Hmm, I just had a thought, the only legitimate reasons to vote no is a
> lack of confidence in the moderator, namespace issues, or technical
> issues, correct? Perhaps a line where the person says why they voted no
> is sufficient to take care of this problem. If the vote taker doesn't
> accept the reason for the no vote, they can pitch it.
That just makes the pre-filled ballots one line longer.
--
Russ Allbery (r...@cs.stanford.edu) <URL:http://www.eyrie.org/~eagle/>
Christopher B. Stone
In article <E3wss...@ecf.toronto.edu>, <why vote NO?> wrote:
>some of the news.groups readers vote NO on *any* moderated news group
>proposals, because of the following reasons:
...and frankly, they're wrong to do so; voting against moderation is every
bit as wrong as the nationalist veto, as far as I'm concerned. People who
dislike moderation are always free to propose an unmoderated companion
group.
In any case, opposition to moderation did not defeat
soc.culture.azerbaijan; nationalist-inspired NO votes did.
--
Chris Stone * cbs...@princeton.edu * http://www.princeton.edu/~cbstone
"Isolationism must become a thing of the past." -Harry Truman
Christopher B. Stone
> RESULT
> moderated group soc.culture.azerbaijan fails 1732:920
>Voted No
>------------------------------------------------------------------------------
>AAIV...@aua.am Armen Aivazian
>AALL...@aua.am Anaida Allakhverdyan
>AARA...@aua.am Ara Araratyan
>AARM...@aua.am ATKEN ARMENIAN
>AAV...@aua.am Aram Avakian
>ACHI...@aua.am ARTHUR CHILINGARIAN
>AGEV...@aua.am ARMAN GEVORGIAN
>AHAM...@aua.am Artak Hambarian
>AJA...@aua.am Armine Janyan
>AKAZ...@aua.am Anahit Kazanchian
>AKH...@aua.am Ara Khachatryan
>AMAN...@aua.am Aregnazan Manoucharian
>AMAR...@aua.am AREG MARGARIAN
>ANAZ...@aua.am ARMEN NAZARIAN
>AOR...@aua.am ANAHIT ORDIAN
>APET...@aua.am ARMEN PETROSIAN
>ASAR...@aua.am Ann Sarkissian
>ATON...@aua.am Aram Tonoyan
>AUA...@aua.am Vahan Aroyan
>BBAB...@aua.am Babken Babayan
>BMIR...@aua.am Bagrat Mirakian
>CARZ...@aua.am TITI
>C...@aua.am Carl E. Grigorian
>CH...@aua.am Chuck Specht
>DYED...@aua.am David Yedigarian
>EADI...@aua.am Edgar Adilkhanian
>EPOG...@aua.am EDWARD POGOSSIAN
>GASL...@aua.am GARRY ASLANIAN
>GAVA...@aua.am GOHAR AVAKIAN
>GGOL...@aua.am Gayane Goltukchian
>GMAN...@aua.am Gevorg Manaseryan
>GOGA...@aua.am Gohar Oganesian
>HGAL...@aua.am Hrayr Galoyan
>HHAK...@aua.am HAKOB HAKOBIAN
>HMAR...@aua.am Haik Martirosian
>HVAR...@aua.am Hovhannes Vardanian
>IMKR...@aua.am IGOR MKRTOUMIAN
>KGR...@aua.am Karine Grigorian
>KHEK...@aua.am Kim Hekimian
>KMOU...@aua.am KARINE MOURADIAN
>KOGA...@aua.am DrVLM
>KSAR...@aua.am Karine Sarkisian
>KSIM...@aua.am Karen Simonian
>LA...@aua.am Laserain Tekhnika
>LBAG...@aua.am Lousine Baghdasarian
>LCHO...@aua.am Levon Chorbajian
>LYEG...@aua.am Lana Yeganova
>MMIN...@aua.am MARTIN MINASIAN
>MSHI...@aua.am Martin Shirinian
>NABA...@aua.am Narine Abazian
>NMAR...@aua.am NAIRA MARTIROSSIAN
>NMEL...@aua.am NARA MELKONIAN
>NMOV...@aua.am mednews
>NSAL...@aua.am Naz
>NSTE...@aua.am Nvard Stepanian
>PBAD...@aua.am Parandzem Badalian
>RGAS...@aua.am RUBINA GASPARIAN
>RKAR...@aua.am Ruben Karapetian
>SGON...@aua.am Shavarsh Gondakian
>SKHA...@aua.am Souren Khachatrian
>THKH...@aua.am Thereza Khorozian
>VHOK...@aua.am Varuzhan Hoktanian
>VZAK...@aua.am Vahagn Zakarian
>YMEH...@aua.am YEPREM MEHRANIAN
>YSHI...@aua.am Ervand Shirinian
This is an amazing number of votes from a single site -- 65 in all, if I
counted correctly. I have never seen a post from this site on any Usenet
group. I think we must recognize the strong possibility that an organized
NO campaign took place at this site in violation of Usenet rules. I call
upon Tale and the UVV to consider elminating these votes if their
authenticity cannot be proven.
Christopher B. Stone
> RESULT
> moderated group soc.culture.azerbaijan fails 1732:920
>Voted No
>------------------------------------------------------------------------------
>10043...@compuserve.com Kevork K. Oskanian
[snip]
>kevork....@ping.be Kevork K.Oskanian
>kev...@ath.forthnet.gr KEVORK
Are these three voters by any chance the same person? If so, I believe
all three votes should be discarded.
Emil Sanamyan
On 13 Jan 1997, Christopher B. Stone wrote:
> In article <853093...@uunet.uu.net>, Jim Davis <j...@primenet.com> wrote:
>> moderated group soc.culture.azerbaijan fails 1732:920
> ...and we now have another fine vote in the tradition of
> soc.culture.macedonia and soc.culture.indian.jammu-kashmir.
As far as I can tell the above two cases were very different from SCA-M,
in that there was a problem with names of groups (what's scij-k? afaik it
should either be sci or scj-k, or both), problem with SCA-M was with its
_moderators_, and I wrote to Christofer Stone and to moderators repeatedly
about that as early as October of last year. But neither Stone nor prop.
moderators (those who had bothered to reply) cared enough about the
group's creation, to run any decent PR campaign.
> News.groups is a paper tiger; no one raised any technical objections to
> this RFD during the discussion phase, and indeed several news.groupies
> praised it. Unfortunately, the Armenian community chose to torpedo this
> group. The nationalist veto rears its ugly head once again.
Armenians voted against this group, because moderators of this group are
ignorant and stubborn, and therefore biased. I told Chris Stone many a
time, but he didn't care that the proposed moderator (Adil Baguirov - the
only one of five I have ever seen posting in usenet) posted revisionist
articles under his actual and forged accounts; he didn't care that the
same Baguirov & Co. disallow any discussion of Armeno-Azerbaijani topics
on their E-Majlis listerve about Azerbaijan, while that doesn't stop him
from posting his (government's) official positions vis-a-vis Armenia; that
is censorship. Today, unfortunately, political censorship is the way of
life in Azerbaijan, people are arrested and tortured for no good reason,
journalists are beaten and arrested, if gov-t doesn't like their articles
or cartoons. That seems to be just fine with A. Baguirov and C. Stone.
You simply do not make a known child abuser a kindergarden instructor, you
don't make a known censor into a moderator.
> Even if we eliminated half of the YES votes on the grounds that they, too,
> might have been cast for political reasons, that still leaves more than
> 800 voters who said they wanted a group about Azeri culture. This
> proposal would have given them a good one.
May be them or you, but not me. Being born and having grown up in
Azerbaijan, I wasn't even allowed to join the listserve A. Baguirov's
running, because of political censorship he imposed there. He didn't even
try to convince me that I would be able to post to a would-be SCAM.
I repeat again, Armenians voted against this group, because of its
moderators. Had SCT been moderated in time, I doubt Armenians could ever
respond to S*rdar Arg*c's ravings. Either make the group robo-moderated,
or make sure your moderators at least look decent. All anybody would
ever want is a level plainfield.
Emil Sanamyan
On 13 Jan 1997, Christopher B. Stone wrote:
> In article <853093...@uunet.uu.net>, Jim Davis <j...@primenet.com> wrote:
> > moderated group soc.culture.azerbaijan fails 1732:920
> >Voted No
> >------------------------------------------------------------------------------
> >10043...@compuserve.com Kevork K. Oskanian
> [snip]
> >kevork....@ping.be Kevork K.Oskanian
> >kev...@ath.forthnet.gr KEVORK
> Are these three voters by any chance the same person? If so, I believe
> all three votes should be discarded.
What does Kevork in Greece has to do with Kevork in Belgium with Kevork
in compuserve. Chris, I really hope you aren't losing it. Kevork Oskanian
is as common among Armenians as George Goldman in the west.
Emil Sanamyan
On 13 Jan 1997, Christopher B. Stone wrote:
> In any case, opposition to moderation did not defeat
> soc.culture.azerbaijan; nationalist-inspired NO votes did.
What defeated this SCA-M was its moderators' actions, even before the
groups was created. Nothing more, nothing less.
Emil Sanamyan
Chris Stone wrote:
> In article <853093...@uunet.uu.net>, Jim Davis <j...@primenet.com>
> wrote:
>> moderated group soc.culture.azerbaijan fails 1732:920
>>Voted No
>>------------------------------------------------------------------------------
>>AAIV...@aua.am Armen Aivazian
>>AALL...@aua.am Anaida Allakhverdyan
>>AARA...@aua.am Ara Araratyan
>>AARM...@aua.am ATKEN ARMENIAN
>>AAV...@aua.am Aram Avakian
[...]
>This is an amazing number of votes from a single site -- 65 in all, if I
>counted correctly. I have never seen a post from this site on any Usenet
>group. I think we must recognize the strong possibility that an organized
>NO campaign took place at this site in violation of Usenet rules. I call
>upon Tale and the UVV to consider elminating these votes if their
>authenticity cannot be proven.
You are pushing it Chris. AUA is American University of Armenia and has a
quite a few students. Have been looking into "YES" votes at all? Chew on
this then:
Voted Yes:
---------
102...@cc.eee.metu.edu.tr
DBA
77...@cc.eee.metu.edu.tr
78...@cc.eee.metu.edu.tr Rza
Nuriyev
advi...@rorqual.cc.metu.edu.tr
Vasif
advi...@rorqual.cc.metu.edu.tr murat
bicer
ates...@rorqual.cc.metu.edu.tr selcuk yusuf
ateskan
atu...@rorqual.cc.metu.edu.tr aysun
tuncer
au...@rorqual.cc.metu.edu.tr
Alper
ba...@rorqual.cc.metu.edu.tr Barat
Nuriyev
c06...@orca.cc.metu.edu.tr pervin
katmer
c06...@orca.cc.metu.edu.tr Ali
Caglayan
ede...@rorqual.cc.metu.edu.tr ersin
deger
em...@yalova.srdc.metu.edu.tr Emin
Turanalp
fer...@rorqual.cc.metu.edu.tr feramuz
atak
gu...@newton.physics.metu.edu.tr Hasan
Guclu
ha...@radon.che.metu.edu.tr Huseyin Hakan
Abaci
ha...@compclup.ceng.metu.edu.tr Halil
Erensu
han...@knidos.cc.metu.edu.tr Hanifi
Pertesoy
huse...@rorqual.cc.metu.edu.tr huseyin
demirci
il...@compclup.ceng.metu.edu.tr Ilker
TEMIR
koks...@rorqual.cc.metu.edu.tr Murat
Koksalan
ko...@rorqual.cc.metu.edu.tr ayse ayata kora
merk.
kur...@knidos.cc.metu.edu.tr Kursat
Cagiltay
SEN...@ea.eee.metu.edu.tr Sencan
Tuncer
sur...@rorqual.cc.metu.edu.tr cengiz
surucu
ta...@ampr-gw.metu.edu.tr Isik
BODUR
tau...@compclup.ceng.metu.edu.tr Taurus the Prince of
Thieves.
tok...@rorqual.cc.metu.edu.tr Mehmet Ziya
Tokinan
www...@knidos.cc.metu.edu.tr Alkim
OZAYGEN
wwws...@knidos.cc.metu.edu.tr Sevgi Toplulugu
admini
-------
and a few more:
-------
-------
and check this from one of the proposed moderators:
-------
PL95...@PACEVM.DAC.PACE.EDU
PL95...@PACEVM.DAC.PACE.EDU Azer Ibadov
PL96...@PACEVM.DAC.PACE.EDU
PL96...@PACEVM.DAC.PACE.EDU
PL96...@PACEVM.DAC.PACE.EDU
-------
There are several more patterns in this vote. The point is not to waive
your fists around after the fight (as Russian say), the point is for you
and your friends to understand that they cannot ignore the interests of
the majority of usenet users who dislike government inspired political
censorship. Good luck in Saint-Petersburg.
Ron Newman
In article <E3wss...@ecf.toronto.edu>, why says...
>
>some of the news.groups readers vote NO on *any* moderated news group
>proposals, because of the following reasons:
[reasons snipped]
>
>in such circumstances, some believe that the usenet group creation process
>is not mature enough to have moderated groups, and hence they vote NO.
I'm sure some people cast "Wet Blanket" votes against moderation, but
certainly not 920 of them. Probably not even 92 of them.
James J. Davis
In article <5bduom$l...@cnn.Princeton.EDU>,
Christopher B. Stone <cbs...@flagstaff.princeton.edu> wrote:
:I think we must recognize the strong possibility that an organized
:NO campaign took place at this site in violation of Usenet rules. I call
:upon Tale and the UVV to consider elminating these votes if their
:authenticity cannot be proven.
You, I, and one of the proponents have extensively discussed this in
email. I simply didn't see any evidence from the raw vote headers that
the aua.am votes were forged, or generated by cgi scripts, or in any other
way should not be counted. And as we've also discussed in email, there
was campaigning on both sides. It's impossible to untangle which 'no' --
or 'yes' -- votes were influenced by that campaigning.
Fuad Damirov
Hello, I just curios about invalid addresses. I did check them by
sending them a test messages. Seems to that the all of them went through
and even more from some of them I got replys back to me. The only one was
undelivered is ro...@fakt.baku.az.
Will you please let me know, how come the rest of them appeared invalid?
Thank you,
Sincerely,
Fuad
James J. Davis
In article <5beh5a$s...@charm.magnus.acs.ohio-state.edu>,
Fuad Damirov <dami...@osu.edu> wrote:
:Hello, I just curios about invalid addresses. I did check them by
There are a number of administrative accounts (root, postmaster, news,
etc.) that the voting software will not accept votes from. Where I work,
for instance, 'root' is actually a group of people, not one user, and so
there would be no way to tell who really voted. Anyone who sent in a vote
from a 'root' account got an acknowledgment back asking them to vote again
from a personal account; the ones listed in the final ack as 'invalid'
were the ones who didn't do that.
Adil Baguirov
On 13 Jan 1997, Ron Newman wrote:
*In article <853093...@uunet.uu.net>, j...@primenet.com says...
*>
*> RESULT
*> moderated group soc.culture.azerbaijan fails 1732:920
*>
*>There were 1732 YES votes and 920 NO votes, for a total of 2652 valid votes.
*>There were 23 invalid ballots.
*>
*>For group passage, YES votes must be at least 2/3 of all valid (YES and NO)
*>votes. There also must be at least 100 more YES votes than NO votes.
*
*This sucks.
*
*Over 1700 people wanted this group. It is wrong for their will to be
*thwarted by 900 others.
*
*It's time to consider changing the 2/3 rule. Perhaps it should no longer
*apply, or the ration should gradually decrease, once the total number of votes
*cast crosses some threshold (1000 votes?)
The public spoke...favorably. The defense rests....
Adil Baguirov
SCA Proponent/Moderator
http://scf.usc.edu/~baguirov/azerbaijan.html
--
Adil Baguirov
University of Southern California
Azerbaijan Lists Owner/SCA Proponent/Moderator
http://scf.usc.edu/~baguirov/azerbaijan.html
Adil Baguirov
On Mon, 13 Jan 1997, Emil Sanamyan wrote:
*about that as early as October of last year. But neither Stone nor prop.
*moderators (those who had bothered to reply) cared enough about the
*group's creation, to run any decent PR campaign.
Please explain the above.
*> News.groups is a paper tiger; no one raised any technical objections to
*> this RFD during the discussion phase, and indeed several news.groupies
*> praised it. Unfortunately, the Armenian community chose to torpedo this
*> group. The nationalist veto rears its ugly head once again.
*
*Armenians voted against this group, because moderators of this group are
*ignorant and stubborn, and therefore biased. I told Chris Stone many a
Thank you for yet another insult. Should I remind to the USENET community
the first one? I hope not. Where are such "conclusions" derived from? Why
were the moderators "ignorant and stubborn, and _therefore_ biased"
(emphasis mine--AB)?
*time, but he didn't care that the proposed moderator (Adil Baguirov - the
*only one of five I have ever seen posting in usenet) posted revisionist
I guess you did not look well. Because your friend, David Davidian claims
that one other moderator posted something on the USENET. Or we
conveniently forget about it? ;-)
*articles under his actual and forged accounts; he didn't care that the
*same Baguirov & Co. disallow any discussion of Armeno-Azerbaijani topics
*on their E-Majlis listerve about Azerbaijan
How many times did we speak about that? I think enough to understand it.
First of all, there were no "listserve" list at that time, so there is
another falsification. Second, Chris Stone has nothing to do with any
list, as he was not even subscribed in the present or past. Third he
reviewed all the letters between me and you, Emil, and was probably just
as "excited" by you insults and logics as I am.
*, while that doesn't stop him
*from posting his (government's) official positions vis-a-vis Armenia; that
Please explain the above. I can't recall any such, but I would like to
understand better of what I am "accused."
*is censorship. Today, unfortunately, political censorship is the way of
*life in Azerbaijan, people are arrested and tortured for no good reason,
*journalists are beaten and arrested, if gov-t doesn't like their articles
*or cartoons. That seems to be just fine with A. Baguirov and C. Stone.
*
Would you like me to supply you a couple of copies of Amnesty
International, Helsinki Human Rights Watch, US Department of State and
news agencies reports on tortures, killings, arrests, falsification of the
elections, etc in Armenia, by its people and government?
*You simply do not make a known child abuser a kindergarden instructor, you
*don't make a known censor into a moderator.
"known censor" Of course we all know of Emil's excellent "pre-democracy"
views. He is the most "right" person for the job you can find.
*> Even if we eliminated half of the YES votes on the grounds that they, too,
*> might have been cast for political reasons, that still leaves more than
*> 800 voters who said they wanted a group about Azeri culture. This
*> proposal would have given them a good one.
*
*May be them or you, but not me. Being born and having grown up in
*Azerbaijan, I wasn't even allowed to join the listserve A. Baguirov's
Once again, there was no "listserve." Second, "being born and having grown
up in Azerbaijan" doesn't constitute the right to be in any list. Strange
logics once more. Each list has the right to deny anyone on the base of
everything. Especially when there is no "listserve."
*running, because of political censorship he imposed there. He didn't even
*try to convince me that I would be able to post to a would-be SCAM.
*
I didn't know I had to. Neither did you ever ask. Strange logics once
more. I did everything from my part, but encountered only constant
accusations, inadequate logics and understanding, and insults.
*I repeat again, Armenians voted against this group, because of its
*moderators. Had SCT been moderated in time, I doubt Armenians could ever
They voted because: 1) they were asked so 2) because they are afraid of
anything with the word "Azerbaijan" in it 3) because of tremendous hate
toward the nation and it's people. That's evident as E=mc^2. Or would you
like to dispute that?
*respond to S*rdar Arg*c's ravings. Either make the group robo-moderated,
Please re-read the RFD. The robo-moderation was intended to be used with
SCA-M if there would be too many messages to handle for the moderators.
*or make sure your moderators at least look decent. All anybody would
??? What is that supposed to mean? It just adds up to the number of
insults. Is that the only thing you are capable of: hate and insult?
*ever want is a level plainfield.
The solution is simple and was proposed by me and others several
times before: 1) Ignore SCA-M
2) Create your own mediums (in this case moderated
newsgroup(s))
3) And stop letting (personal) hate dictate your actions
With regards,
Ron Newman
> moderated group soc.culture.azerbaijan fails 1732:920
>
>There were 1732 YES votes and 920 NO votes, for a total of 2652 valid votes.
>There were 23 invalid ballots.
>
>For group passage, YES votes must be at least 2/3 of all valid (YES and NO)
>votes. There also must be at least 100 more YES votes than NO votes.
This sucks.
Over 1700 people wanted this group. It is wrong for their will to be
thwarted by 900 others.
It's time to consider changing the 2/3 rule. Perhaps it should no longer
apply, or the ration should gradually decrease, once the total number of votes
Adil Baguirov
On Mon, 13 Jan 1997, Emil Sanamyan wrote:
*Chris Stone wrote:
*
*> In article <853093...@uunet.uu.net>, Jim Davis <j...@primenet.com>
*> wrote:
*
*>> moderated group soc.culture.azerbaijan fails 1732:920
*
*>>Voted No
*>>------------------------------------------------------------------------------
*>>AAIV...@aua.am Armen Aivazian
*>>AALL...@aua.am Anaida Allakhverdyan
*>>AARA...@aua.am Ara Araratyan
*>>AARM...@aua.am ATKEN ARMENIAN
*>>AAV...@aua.am Aram Avakian
*
*[...]
*
*>This is an amazing number of votes from a single site -- 65 in all, if I
*>counted correctly. I have never seen a post from this site on any Usenet
*>group. I think we must recognize the strong possibility that an organized
*>NO campaign took place at this site in violation of Usenet rules. I call
*>upon Tale and the UVV to consider elminating these votes if their
*>authenticity cannot be proven.
*
*You are pushing it Chris. AUA is American University of Armenia and has a
*quite a few students. Have been looking into "YES" votes at all? Chew on
*this then:
*
*Voted Yes:
*---------
[.........]
*
*-------
*
*There are several more patterns in this vote. The point is not to waive
*your fists around after the fight (as Russian say), the point is for you
*and your friends to understand that they cannot ignore the interests of
*the majority of usenet users who dislike government inspired political
*censorship. Good luck in Saint-Petersburg.
I think the very chauvinistic, one-nation's minority (920 NO votes) showed
an excellent case of injustice, unfairness and hate toward the
multi-national majority (1732 YES votes).
Emil, I hope you don't forget all the NO votes from the following sites.
If you do, please refresh your memory.
UCLA.EDU,
USC.EDU,
JUNO.COM,
nic.NK.AM,
email.csun.edu,
PIP.CC.BRANDEIS.EDU,
leland.stanford.ede.
Plus:
umich.edu,
mit.edu,
ix.netcom.com
arminco.com.
And:
U.arizona.edu (Emil's domain)
Ganapathiraju Sree Ramana Gopal
In article <5bcslh$1...@marvin.deepthot.cary.nc.us>,
Jay Denebeim <dene...@deepthot.cary.nc.us> wrote:
>
>Hmm, I just had a thought, the only legitimate reasons to vote no is a
>lack of confidence in the moderator, namespace issues, or technical
>issues, correct?
and, moderation policies, moderators' tenure, and the explicit and
implicit mandate??
Stephan Schulz
In article <5bdqib$a...@cnn.Princeton.EDU>,
>
>>some of the news.groups readers vote NO on *any* moderated news group
>>proposals, because of the following reasons:
>
>bit as wrong as the nationalist veto, as far as I'm concerned. People who
>dislike moderation are always free to propose an unmoderated companion
>group.
Says the man who votes against each and every _unmoderated_
soc.culture group (and then some). Did it ever occur to you to propose
a moderated companion group?
>In any case, opposition to moderation did not defeat
>soc.culture.azerbaijan; nationalist-inspired NO votes did.
You are probably partially right about this. I did not follow this
particular group, but the Armenian-Azeri conflict is
well-known. Perhaps some of th no votes could have been avoided with a
different moderator panel, but all in all I tend to agree that this is
another failure of the news group creation system. I do not agree that
we now need to create a comitee of "we know it better" people to solve
these problems - I think this would create more problems than it would
address.
Stephan
-------------------------- It can be done! ---------------------------------
Please email me as sch...@informatik.tu-muenchen.de (Stephan Schulz)
----------------------------------------------------------------------------
Matthias Neeracher
cbs...@flagstaff.princeton.edu (Christopher B. Stone) writes:
> In article <853093...@uunet.uu.net>, Jim Davis <j...@primenet.com> wrote:
>
> > RESULT
> > moderated group soc.culture.azerbaijan fails 1732:920
>
> >----------------------------------------------------------------------------
> >AAIV...@aua.am Armen Aivazian
> >AALL...@aua.am Anaida Allakhverdyan
> >AARA...@aua.am Ara Araratyan
I understand there was some Armenian opposition to the proposal, so it seems
plausible for a lot of votes to have come from there. There were also 50
votes from baku.az. Top 5 sites were:
Yes:
30 gantep.edu.tr
33 usc.edu
50 baku.az
57 bilkent.edu.tr
75 metu.edu.tr
No:
30 arminco.com
44 usc.edu
52 ucla.edu
56 aol.com
66 aua.am
What does seem somewhat strange to me is that AOL votes were 56:23 *against*
the group, while I would have expected an outcome pretty much like the
overall 2:1 vote for the group. However, even if a large percentage of AOL
votes were due to people voting with multiple screen names, the outcome
wouldn't have changed.
Matthias
-----
Matthias Neeracher <ne...@iis.ee.ethz.ch> http://www.iis.ee.ethz.ch/~neeri
"Faced with the choice between changing one's own mind and proving that
there is no need to do so, almost everyone gets busy on the proof. "
-- John Kenneth Galbraith
Jeremy Billones
I'll proclaim near-total ignorance of the issues involved here,
but I did see this one set of comments:
In article <Pine.SV4.3.94.970113...@aludra.usc.edu>,
Adil Baguirov <bagu...@aludra.usc.edu> wrote:
>On Mon, 13 Jan 1997, Emil Sanamyan wrote:
>
>*articles under his actual and forged accounts; he didn't care that the
>*same Baguirov & Co. disallow any discussion of Armeno-Azerbaijani topics
>*on their E-Majlis listerve about Azerbaijan
>
>How many times did we speak about that? I think enough to understand it.
>First of all, there were no "listserve" list at that time, so there is
>another falsification. Second, Chris Stone has nothing to do with any
>list, as he was not even subscribed in the present or past. Third he
>reviewed all the letters between me and you, Emil, and was probably just
>as "excited" by you insults and logics as I am.
[snip]
>*May be them or you, but not me. Being born and having grown up in
>*Azerbaijan, I wasn't even allowed to join the listserve A. Baguirov's
>
>Once again, there was no "listserve." Second, "being born and having grown
>up in Azerbaijan" doesn't constitute the right to be in any list. Strange
>logics once more. Each list has the right to deny anyone on the base of
>everything. Especially when there is no "listserve."
>Adil Baguirov
>University of Southern California
>Azerbaijan Lists Owner/SCA Proponent/Moderator
>http://scf.usc.edu/~baguirov/azerbaijan.html
It seems to me that Edil is referring to the Azerbaijan Lists that you
proclaim to own in your .sig when he refers to "listserves." So I wonder
why you say no such list exists. And if you have refused to let him join
this mailing list you own (that doesn't exist), I can see why he'd be
concerned you wouldn't let him post to a newsgroup you (co-)moderate.
Jeremy Billones http://www.primenet.com/~billones/
Objective Reality Isn't * ISTJ * Go Caps! * USSF Certifiable
"Promised net facilities were made unavailable to us at the last moment, pitches
were prepared like national roads, top players were omitted by county sides,
targets we set were not chased and hosts did not show up at cocktail parties."
Zoli Fekete, keeper of hungarian-faq
Even aside from the hairy issue of whether and how inappropriate
campaigning may have resulted in these block-votes, I would like to
re-iterate what I said eg. in the aftermath of the Pakistani vote:
allowing a single site to provide such a decisive margin for a vote is
contrary to the spririt of the Guidelines, so it's high time they made
uncounted (or weighted less at the very least). Doing so would be
relatively minor change, without the controversy and long gestation
period that'd come with a major overhaul of the whole newsgroup creation
system (which has been said to be under consideration for quite some time
now - in the meantime controversial ballots seem mushrooming).
On 13 Jan 1997, Christopher B. Stone wrote:
> This is an amazing number of votes from a single site -- 65 in all, if I
> counted correctly. I have never seen a post from this site on any Usenet
> group. I think we must recognize the strong possibility that an organized
> NO campaign took place at this site in violation of Usenet rules. I call
> upon Tale and the UVV to consider elminating these votes if their
> authenticity cannot be proven.
--
Zoli fek...@c2.org, keeper of <http://www.hix.com/hungarian-faq/>
*SELLERS BEWARE: I will never buy anything from companies associated
*with inappropriate online advertising (unsolicited commercial email,
*excessive multiposting etc), and discourage others from doing so too!
Visit 'Boycott Internet Spam' <http://www.vix.com/spam/>
Jay Denebeim
Christopher B. Stone
In article <5be6h6$f...@nnrp1.news.primenet.com>,
James J. Davis <j...@primenet.com> wrote:
>In article <5bduom$l...@cnn.Princeton.EDU>,>:I think we must recognize the strong possibility that an organized
>:NO campaign took place at this site in violation of Usenet rules. I call
>:upon Tale and the UVV to consider elminating these votes if their
>:authenticity cannot be proven.
>You, I, and one of the proponents have extensively discussed this in
>email.
Correct. I am now appealing the matter to Tale, both publicly on
news.groups and via private e-mail. You have been copied in on all
correspondence.
>I simply didn't see any evidence from the raw vote headers that
>the aua.am votes were forged, or generated by cgi scripts, or in any other
>way should not be counted. And as we've also discussed in email, there
>was campaigning on both sides. It's impossible to untangle which 'no' --
>or 'yes' -- votes were influenced by that campaigning.
As you should know, this is not the pint. Traditionally, some degree of
campaigning has been acceptable on Usenet. For instance, it is legitimate
to suggest that if Azeris were interested in reading a newsgroup about
their homeland, that they ought to vote for that newsgroup. Now, of
course you received votes that went beyond this standard -- votes cast
because of "ethnic solidarity" -- and I agree these should be tossed out.
Even if we got rid of half the YES votes, however, demand for this group
clearly exists, and it should be created.
Adil Baguirov
On 14 Jan 1997, Jeremy Billones wrote:
*I'll proclaim near-total ignorance of the issues involved here,
*but I did see this one set of comments:
*
*>Once again, there was no "listserve." Second, "being born and having grown
*>up in Azerbaijan" doesn't constitute the right to be in any list. Strange
*>logics once more. Each list has the right to deny anyone on the base of
*>everything. Especially when there is no "listserve."
*
*It seems to me that Edil is referring to the Azerbaijan Lists that you
*proclaim to own in your .sig when he refers to "listserves." So I wonder
*why you say no such list exists. And if you have refused to let him join
*this mailing list you own (that doesn't exist), I can see why he'd be
*concerned you wouldn't let him post to a newsgroup you (co-)moderate.
I see. It might be my fault that I haven't specified the exact dates in my
previous letter. I was referring to our "encounter" with Emil Sanamyan in
September-October of 1996. The very first e-mail request to join the
friends list that I have received from him was on Date: Sun, 29 Sep 1996
23:22:02 -0700 (PDT). His infamous last words on the request came on Date:
Sat, 5 Oct 1996 17:45:11 -0700 (MST). Thereafter, he was very pissed off
at me, other people that he didn't know and the whole Azerbaijani nation.
So he continue these silly discussions until today. It was already
discussed so many times in/with so many different newsgroups, lists, and
people, that it's simply wrong to keep bringing it up, especially when all
the "discussions" from Emil side contain so many personal insults. At
that time there was not "listserve" at all, which is a fact, and Emil
knows that. There was a list of friends, just like you probably have in
your guestbook. At it's best time, it included up to 80 people of
different ethnicities (Azeri, Turkish, Russian, English, American, etc.)
Therefore it was included to the RFD of the SCA, since all the people from
the mailing list were interested in the SCA and that's where the idea of a
creation of a newsgroup came up. The first Azerbaijan listserver list was
created on Oct 24, 1996, and mass subscription started in November. So as
we see, Emil used "dirty" tricks to falsify the truth once more.
Moreover, if you have read my posts, I hope you would agree that _any_
list reserves the right to deny the admission to anyone. And I haven't
been a "listowner" before simply because there was none, it was a friends
list. But it was identified as Nofal Rzayev's list, as he was the main
contributor. Currently, after the creation of the "listserve" there are
two other co-owners except me. Therefore, from any perspective you look at
it, Emil falsified the truth, hoping to trick everyone.
Also, there were and are several Armenians in the Azerbaijan list. So any
claims of denied admission because of "ethnicity" are wrong. On the other
hand, there are no Azerbaijanis (left) on the Armenian list(s). There
were 3, but one was removed after 2-3 posts, while the other 2 were forced
to unsubscribe because of tremendous hostility they met. Moreover, some
other people of other ethnicities were so disgusted by such hate toward
Azerbaijani participants, that they also unsubscribed--Turkish, Polish,
and God knows who else. Meanwhile, none of the Armenian participants have
been removed, while some of them _systematically_ break the rules, to
which they initially agreed, on the Azerbaijani list.
Therefore, I urge everyone confused to re-read my posts, and see for
themselves who is who.
Sincerely,
Adil
*
*Jeremy Billones http://www.primenet.com/~billones/
*Objective Reality Isn't * ISTJ * Go Caps! * USSF Certifiable
*"Promised net facilities were made unavailable to us at the last moment, pitches
*were prepared like national roads, top players were omitted by county sides,
*targets we set were not chased and hosts did not show up at cocktail parties."
*
*
Adil Baguirov
On 14 Jan 1997, Christopher B. Stone wrote:
*In article <Pine.A41.3.95.970113...@tortola.u.arizona.edu>,
*Emil Sanamyan <em...@U.Arizona.EDU> wrote:
*>On 13 Jan 1997, Christopher B. Stone wrote:
*
*Second, please learn something about how newsgroups are
*created. A CFV is supposed to be an interest poll, not a "PR campaign"
*amongst Azeris. We publicized the RFD to the extent the guidelines
*permit. (I hasten to add that in future, maybe proponents *should*
*actively solicit nationalist YES votes, since the UVV has shown itself to
*be a paper tiger in terms of weeding nationalist votes out.)
Moreover, the RFD run for an _extended_ time, far longer than the required
by UVV 21 days.
*>Armenians voted against this group, because moderators of this group are
*>ignorant and stubborn, and therefore biased.
*
*First off, do you seriously purport to tell me that 62 voters from the
*American University of Armenia even knew what a "moderated Usenet group"
**is*?
As a matter of fact, AUA has _NO_ USENET access! Meanwhile, the
Azerbaijani addresses have, as they are all provided by INTRANS, which has
NNTP server and USENET access.
*Do you seriously mean to tell me that all the Armenians who voted
*against the group *read* the CFV? If the group was so technically flawed,
*why didn't lots of news.groups regulars vote against it, as we did on
*soc.culture.kashmir?
*
*Incidentally, I would hardly call affiliates of the Soros Foundation
*"ignorant and stubborn," unless they made an incredibly bad hire. (One of
*the proposed moderators works for the Soros Foundation in Prague. George
*Soros is a well-known philanthropist -- with a libertarian bent to boot --
*who has worked on reform in the former Soviet Union. It's a very well
*respected foundation in the academic community.)
By Emil's rationale, I can call Emil Danielyan, who works for OMRI, Open
Media Research Institute, funded by SOROS Foundation, "ignorant and
stubborn" as well, as he voted NO on SCA.
*>I told Chris Stone many a
*>time, but he didn't care that the proposed moderator (Adil Baguirov - the
*>only one of five I have ever seen posting in usenet) posted revisionist
*>articles under his actual and forged accounts;
*
*I do not believe you.
Exactly. If Emil haven't seen Elin Suleymanov's or Farkhad Djangirov's and
other's posts, then he hasn't been long enough on the USENET.
*
*>he didn't care that the
*>same Baguirov & Co. disallow any discussion of Armeno-Azerbaijani topics
*>on their E-Majlis listerve about Azerbaijan, while that doesn't stop him
*>from posting his (government's) official positions vis-a-vis Armenia; that
*>is censorship.
*
*No, you do not realize that there is a distinction between mailing lists
*and newsgroups.
*
*I run a mailing list on defense conversion in the former Soviet Union, and
*I restrict membership very tightly, in a way unacceptable on a newsgroup.
*I am currently mentoring a proposal for talk.politics.bahai, and the RFD
*will be posted to a Bahai-only mailing list. Again, such restrictions
*would be inappropriate for a newsgroup, but they are appropriate for
*mailing lists.
*
*E-majlis is a private mailing list, and Adil is within his rights not to
*let you join. That does not make him a bad moderator. Nor does this
*objection address the fact there were four other moderators besides Adil.
And let's not forget my previous letters (oh, God, how many did I wrote?)
I was not the owner of any list until Oct 24, 1996. Moreover, after people
asked me to tell Emil that it's only for friends list, and yes, sorry, he
was not such at that time, he insulted me. Which didn't prevent him to
send me all kinds of mail later on. But that's the details, of course.
*
*>Today, unfortunately, political censorship is the way of
*>life in Azerbaijan, people are arrested and tortured for no good reason,
*>journalists are beaten and arrested, if gov-t doesn't like their articles
*>or cartoons. That seems to be just fine with A. Baguirov and C. Stone.
*
*This is an ad-hominem attack.
*
*Incidentally, how many of the proposed moderators were based *IN*
*Azerbaijan? All of them were expatriates, in some way, and therefore at
*liberty to post what they like. Do you seriously mean to say that someone
*who works for the Soros Foundation supports the arbitrary detention of
*jounalists? This is precisely what the Soros Foundation WORKS AGAINST.
Emil's statement has absolutely no reasoning and logics. I won't flood the
USENET with the Human Rights reports on Armenia, from all kind of
independent sources for a long period of time, that I have. However, what
Emil and his friends did, is really only prevented the Azerbaijani society
(to which Emil constantly includes himself) from becoming more democratic.
In the end, Azerbaijanis, and all other people out of 1732 + bounced, were
denied to have a medium for discussions of their issues. So much for a
newsgroup...
*
*>You simply do not make a known child abuser a kindergarden instructor, you
*>don't make a known censor into a moderator.
*
*>May be them or you, but not me. Being born and having grown up in
*>Azerbaijan, I wasn't even allowed to join the listserve A. Baguirov's
*>running, because of political censorship he imposed there.
*
*You were not allowed to join the listserv because it is a private listserv,
*one composed mostly of Adil's friends. (I'm not on the list, either.)
*You allege that this is because he only allows ethnic Azeris on the
*mailing list; I don't know whether this is true, but even so, it doesn't
*mean there is any political censorship going on, any more than the
*existence of a Bahai-only mailing list means that non-Bahais are censored
*on soc.religion.bahai.
*
*Furthermore, you repeatedly e-mailed all the moderators even after they
*asked you to stop. This is not behavior I would tolerate on any listserv
*I ran.
Chris, you forget smth. Once again, there was _NO_ listserver at the time
Emil wrote his letters. So he could not be admitted, unless we all have
some kind of telepathy or watch to much of "Back to the future."
And no, never an Azerbaijani list has been composed only out of Azeris.
Never any single list! And we are proud that we are able to host various
nationalities, including Armenians. However, this cannot be said on the
behalf of Armenians, as any attempt to be in an Armenian lists finish with
a denial, removal, censorship, hostility, hate, etc.
*
*By the way, would you allow *me* to join the Hayastan list and answer
*questions about the RFD there? No? Then you're a hypocrite.
*
*>I repeat again, Armenians voted against this group, because of its
*>moderators. Had SCT been moderated in time, I doubt Armenians could ever
*>respond to S*rdar Arg*c's ravings.
*
*Serdar Argic's ravings would not have appeared on soc.culture.azerbaijan,
*because the charter forbids it; I have every confidence that the
*moderators would uphold the charter because a) they have been reasonable
*throughout the RFD, not polemical, as you have been, and b) they come from
*professional backgrounds, where lunacy is frowned upon.
*
Moderators have to follow very strictly all the guidelines. Otherwise they
would be eaten alive by the furious users. My own posts to, for example,
SCRussian.Moderated have been turned down, but I don't protest and start
silly "warfare" against the moderators. Instead I take a look at my posts
and see whether there is smth inappropriate.
Emil's claims are very silly, biased and clearly discriminating. Here what
he wrote On Mon, 13 Jan 1997:
"The risk may not be as great, when moderators are generally known as
mostly tolerant and decent (case of SCR-M). On the proposed SCA-M panel"
This is outrageous! First, he claims that human moderation, i.e. SCA's is
going to be "censorship," and then he basically says "Well, except of
course SCR-M. They are good guys, they have _shown_ to accept all my
posts, even if inappropriate."
I have an apology/excuse from the SCR-M moderator for his approval of
Emil's insults on Dec'96. He cancelled his post eventually, after it has
been there for 3-4 days.
Which leads us all to see what Emil means: as long as my posts will be
always accepted, then that the right newsgroup. Even with insults, hate,
"ignorance and stubbornness," etc. Obviously not everyone can accommodate
Emil's wishes very well. Nice try though.
*And to repeat, I doubt that even a quarter of the NO voters even read the
*RFD or know what a "moderated Usenet newsgroup" is.
The only one's that have read it are a couple of people from Hayastan
list, and one guy from American University of Armenia, who has "pulled
out" all the ~60 votes from that single site with no USENET access.
Sincerely,
Adil
"Truth isn't always beauty, but the hunger for it is."
--Nadine Gordimer
Jeremy Billones
In article <5bdvfn$8...@jimmy.zippo.com>,
Ron Newman <rne...@cybercom.net> wrote:
>Over 1700 people wanted this group. It is wrong for their will to be
>thwarted by 900 others.
>
>It's time to consider changing the 2/3 rule. Perhaps it should no longer
>apply, or the ration should gradually decrease, once the total number of votes
>cast crosses some threshold (1000 votes?)
The whole point of a 2/3 vote is to prevent tyrrany of the majority by
requiring a supermajority. This gives you a tyrrany of the minority,
but "Life sucks. Get a helmet."
[I don't really have an opinion on this particular group, but whenever
there's a borderline case this discussion always pops up.]
Jeremy Billones http://www.primenet.com/~billones/
Objective Reality Isn't * ISTJ * Go Caps! * USSF Certifiable
"Promised net facilities were made unavailable to us at the last moment, pitches
were prepared like national roads, top players were omitted by county sides,
Martin H. Booda
>
Condition given: This sucks.
Please provide documentation and concrete examples. (text, images, etc.)
Use examples and scientific method to establish suckiness of group vote
failure and its relation to even greater suckiness of doing away with
well-established voting procedure.
>Over 1700 people wanted this group. It is wrong for their will to be
>thwarted by 900 others.
>
Condition given: 1700 people wanted this group.
Please provide proof that these particular 1700 people must be slavishly
obeyed. Provide concrete examples of majority rule being beneficial: use
German election results from early 1930's, influence of Moral Majority on
American politics and media, local majorities of Armenians dominating
Azeri minorities and vice versa, etc.
>It's time to consider changing the 2/3 rule. Perhaps it should no longer
>apply, or the ration should gradually decrease, once the total number of votes
>cast crosses some threshold (1000 votes?)
hey, we could have the necessary ratio decrease depending solely on the number
of votes cast in favor! Let's say that we subtract the number of votes cast
in favor from 1,666. The resulting number would have to be the minimum margin
between the votes in favor and the votes against necessary for passage. So,
say, if 1200 votes are cast in favor, and less than 734 are cast against, the
group passes. If 1600 votes are cast in favor, and less than 1534 are cast
against, the group passes. If 2000 votes are cast in favor, and less than 2334
are cast against, the group passes! Justice finally triumphs!
Happy with that, Zeno?
--
Usenet is essentially a HUGE group of people passing notes in class. --R. Kadel
I have been designated by Warren Lavallee to represent 166.57 s.c.i.j-k voters.
Emil Sanamyan
On 14 Jan 1997, Christopher B. Stone wrote:
> And your problem with soc.culture.macedonia was what?
None. I don't even know if it exists, what are its rules, what sort of
problem should I have had with it?
> >problem with SCA-M was with its
> >_moderators_, and I wrote to Christofer Stone and to moderators repeatedly
> >about that as early as October of last year. But neither Stone nor prop.
> >moderators (those who had bothered to reply) cared enough about the
> >group's creation, to run any decent PR campaign.
> First off, this is a lie: I certainly replied to your e-mail messages,
> as did Adil. At the time, I even recommended to him that you *should*
> be a moderator, although given your hysterical tone now, perhaps he was
> right to reject my advice.
Did I say you didn't reply? You did. What you didn't do, is to investigate
Adil's
internet background. Without analyzing the whole picture you, without even
contacting other moderators (as of mid-October), you supported a group
that would be ran by a person who relies on political censorship and four
others who don't object to that. Where is the lie?
> Second, please learn something about how newsgroups are
> created. A CFV is supposed to be an interest poll, not a "PR campaign"
> amongst Azeris. We publicized the RFD to the extent the guidelines
> permit. (I hasten to add that in future, maybe proponents *should*
> actively solicit nationalist YES votes, since the UVV has shown itself
> to be a paper tiger in terms of weeding nationalist votes out.)
> Also, if you have comments on a given RFD, you are supposed to make them
> in news.groups, not by sending numerous e-mail messages to the
> proponents and mentors.
I'll take a note of that. However, you must understand, that by introducing
moderation you become responsible for assuring the public that the
proposed moderators are not going to be political censors, hence the
reference to PR. Especially in such a volatile topics that is Azerbaijan.
> First off, do you seriously purport to tell me that 62 voters from the
> American University of Armenia even knew what a "moderated Usenet group"
> *is*? Do you seriously mean to tell me that all the Armenians who voted
> against the group *read* the CFV? If the group was so technically flawed,
> why didn't lots of news.groups regulars vote against it, as we did on
> soc.culture.kashmir?
I can't answer for them, why don't you ask them directly?
> Incidentally, I would hardly call affiliates of the Soros Foundation
> "ignorant and stubborn," unless they made an incredibly bad hire. (One of
> the proposed moderators works for the Soros Foundation in Prague. George
> Soros is a well-known philanthropist -- with a libertarian bent to boot --
> who has worked on reform in the former Soviet Union. It's a very well
> respected foundation in the academic community.)
Chris, I initially held Elin Suleymanov in a very high esteem, just because
of his affiliation. I was thankful, when he wrote to me stating that he
understood my concerns, he even asked of ways I could help create the group
and possibly participate as a moderator. I sent in my ideas, and answers to
his queries (that was still in October, I reckon). Week, two weeks, a month
have gone by, I wrote to you about that, there was no more responses. I think
I wrote twice inquiring, if my messages were received. Silence. And then
it became clear that Elin too didn't object to his cousin's posture and
actions. They thought they could ignore these objections and just score on
votes.
> >I told Chris Stone many a
> >time, but he didn't care that the proposed moderator (Adil Baguirov - the
> >only one of five I have ever seen posting in usenet) posted revisionist
> >articles under his actual and forged accounts;
> I do not believe you.
Chris, I hope you trust your eyes. Do a search for 'kazbek' on the 'old'
http://www.dejanews.com database and you shall find:
----begin quote----
Subject: Re: test!
From: Kazbek Aliyev <dj...@usa.net>
Date: 1996/10/05
Message-Id: <325727...@usa.net>
Sender: bagu...@wph-Pc17.usc.edu
References: <535uaf$f...@ssbunews.ih.lucent.com>
<536rie$e...@newsbf02.news.aol.com>
Content-Type: text/plain; charset=us-Ascii
Organization: ABC Productions
Mime-Version: 1.0
Newsgroups: soc.culture.turkish
X-Mailer: Mozilla 3.0 (Win95; I)
Just a test! Ignore!
Subject: Re: A response to Alex Adamian concerning Azeri-Armenian
postings.
From: Kazbek Aliyev <dj...@usa.net>
Date: 1996/10/06
Message-Id: <325789...@usa.net>
Article Segment 2 of 2
(Get Previous Segment)
(Get All 2 Segments)
Well, I have trouble finding the "Great Armenia" or even tiny Armenia on
the maps before 192X's. You know why? -- simply because Armenia never
existed, just like the myth of the genocide.
[...]
----end quote----
Look at 'From:' and 'Sender' in the first message, then read second message
(it's in full on dejanews). This is revisionism. Do a search for Baguirov
and you'll learn that it was Armenians who killed, raped, and tortured
themselves in Sumgait in 1988. I won't go into details. I won't go into his
e-mails, it's too long and frankly, not a whole lot of people here know when
PFA was created or Azeri Army activated. Do you believe me now? This sort
of thing brings Armenians to a consensus rather quickly, and really it
should any other group of people as well. I have no problem with Adil
posting whatever he wants, organizing as many lists as he wants, for
friends, neighbors, Azeri fans of Pink Floyd or whatever. What I have a
problem is with him controlling a content of a title newsgroup in the
public domain. Four other proposed moderators don't object to that, and
hence disqualified in my view as well.
> >he didn't care that the
> >same Baguirov & Co. disallow any discussion of Armeno-Azerbaijani topics
> >on their E-Majlis listerve about Azerbaijan, while that doesn't stop him
> >from posting his (government's) official positions vis-a-vis Armenia; that
> >is censorship.
> No, you do not realize that there is a distinction between mailing lists
> and newsgroups.
> I run a mailing list on defense conversion in the former Soviet Union, and
> I restrict membership very tightly, in a way unacceptable on a newsgroup.
> I am currently mentoring a proposal for talk.politics.bahai, and the RFD
> will be posted to a Bahai-only mailing list. Again, such restrictions
> would be inappropriate for a newsgroup, but they are appropriate for
> mailing lists.
> E-majlis is a private mailing list, and Adil is within his rights not to
> let you join. That does not make him a bad moderator. Nor does this
> objection address the fact there were four other moderators besides
> Adil.
You are comparing apples and oranges. His mailing list is not just for his
friends (I don't know if Davit Davidian is his friend, but he was accepted
recently after week-long deliberations). At the time I was the first
Armenian to apply to his list (and disclaimer said that anyone with interest
in Azerbaijan can apply), and was rejected as he put it: "because of previous
conflicts with history of Azerbaijan". Huh? Dr. Farid Meandoab didn't have
a problem with me on his list, neither did the short-lived list of Farkhad
Djangirov. Later, he did begin to accept Armenians to avoid discrimination
charges. But what good does his new 'openness' do, if one of the
guidelines of the group is as follows:
- No discussions of Azeri/Armenian, Turkish/Armenian past
- and/or present relations or history.
What is that? Censorship.
[....]
> You were not allowd to join the listserv because it is a private listserv,
> one composed mostly of Adil's friends. (I'm not on the list, either.)
> You allege that this is because he only allows ethnic Azeris on the
> mailing list; I don't know whether this is true, but even so, it doesn't
> mean there is any political censorship going on, any more than the
> existence of a Bahai-only mailing list means that non-Bahais are
> censored on soc.religion.bahai.
Well you should have joined, that would give you a relatively good taste of
Adil's managerial skills, that you are defending. It often takes weeks to
complete a request for membership to join the list, sometimes requests are
repeatedly ignored - case of Hovik Manoucharian. Btw, I never alleged that
he only allows Azeris in, I merely quoted him, as saying: "Look, this list
is for Azeris."
> Furthermore, you repeatedly e-mailed all the moderators even after they
> asked you to stop. This is not behavior I would tolerate on any
> listserv I ran.
Who were they, Chris? If anyone ever asked me to stop contacting him it
was Adil. Elin never said such a thing, others never even replied. If I
e-mailed Adil afterwards it was a carbon copy of my [two I believe] msgs
to Elin.
> By the way, would you allow *me* to join the Hayastan list and answer
> questions about the RFD there? No? Then you're a hypocrite.
What are you talking about? Noone needs anybody's permission to join
hayastan. Anyone who sends in a request message is accepted automatically.
Send a message to hayastan...@usc.edu containing this line only:
subscribe hayastan [your e-mail] [your first and last name]
without brackets, and you are on in about 24 hrs.
> Serdar Argic's ravings would not have appeared onsoc.culture.azerbaijan,
> because the charter forbids it; I have every confidence that the
> moderators would uphold the charter because a) they have been reasonable
> throughout the RFD, not polemical, as you have been, and b) they come
> from professional backgrounds, where lunacy is frowned upon.
> And to repeat, I doubt that even a quarter of the NO voters even read
> the RFD or know what a "moderated Usenet newsgroup" is.
Well, I read it alright:
"The following shall be off-topic in soc.culture.azerbaijan:
6) Excessively polemical postings; obscenties; plagiarism and
~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~
academic dishonesty, including the deliberate misattribution
of quotations from historical documents and figures. The
moderators shall interpret this rule loosely -- newsgroups are
~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~
not academic journals -- but deliberate misattributions have
poisoned the atmosphere in other newsgroups."
And do you think I should trust this interpretation to Adil? Not after all
I have seen him post and do.
Adil Baguirov
On Tue, 14 Jan 1997, Emil Sanamyan wrote:
*On 14 Jan 1997, Jeremy Billones wrote:
*
*> It seems to me that Edil is referring to the Azerbaijan Lists that you
*> proclaim to own in your .sig when he refers to "listserves." So I wonder
*> why you say no such list exists. And if you have refused to let him join
*> this mailing list you own (that doesn't exist), I can see why he'd be
*> concerned you wouldn't let him post to a newsgroup you (co-)moderate.
*
*This is just one of the digressive maneuvers, Mr. Baguirov likes to employ
*now and then. He now claims that he then owned list that didn't really
*exist. So, if my application was refused it was because it didn't
*really exist. On and on.. Read few more of his messages, you will
*understand.
I guess I need to re-post for certain individuals:
From bagu...@aludra.usc.edu Tue Jan 14 23:46:43 1997
Date: 14 Jan 1997 16:43:48 -0800
From: Adil Baguirov <bagu...@aludra.usc.edu>
Newsgroups: news.groups
Subject: Re: RESULT: soc.culture.azerbaijan fails 1732:920
Sincerely,
Adil
*Objective Reality Isn't * ISTJ * Go Caps! * USSF Certifiable
*"Promised net facilities were made unavailable to us at the last moment, pitches
*were prepared like national roads, top players were omitted by county sides,
*targets we set were not chased and hosts did not show up at cocktail parties."
Ron Newman
In article <Pine.BSF.3.91.970114...@blacklodge.c2.net>, "Zoli says...
>
> Even aside from the hairy issue of whether and how inappropriate
>campaigning may have resulted in these block-votes, I would like to
>re-iterate what I said eg. in the aftermath of the Pakistani vote:
>allowing a single site to provide such a decisive margin for a vote is
>contrary to the spririt of the Guidelines, so it's high time they made
>uncounted (or weighted less at the very least).
So if a large number of votes come from AOL, or Netcom, or Earthlink,
or some other huge ISP, we should not count them?
That doesn't sound right to me.
Emil Sanamyan
On 14 Jan 1997, Jeremy Billones wrote:
> It seems to me that Edil is referring to the Azerbaijan Lists that you
> proclaim to own in your .sig when he refers to "listserves." So I wonder
> why you say no such list exists. And if you have refused to let him join
> this mailing list you own (that doesn't exist), I can see why he'd be
> concerned you wouldn't let him post to a newsgroup you (co-)moderate.
This is just one of the digressive maneuvers, Mr. Baguirov likes to employ
now and then. He now claims that he then owned list that didn't really
exist. So, if my application was refused it was because it didn't
really exist. On and on.. Read few more of his messages, you will
understand.
Emil Sanamyan
I just wanted to clarify the 'insult' situation. Adil sometimes becomes
as sensitive as a teenage bride. He is welcome to consider that an insult
too, that's his choice. When my application to his list about Azerbaijan
was rejected, as he put it "because of previous conflicts with
Azerbaijan's history" (read we don't like your opinions, we don't want
you here). I told him approximately the following: Ok, you can play ball
with yourself, if you wish, only it looks like jerking off.
Since then he, 'insulted', hasn't been the same.
I stand behind what I said.
With this and my response to Chris Stone, I'll need to take a bit of an
hiatus from this newsgroup. Cheers.
Christopher B. Stone
>It's time to consider changing the 2/3 rule. Perhaps it should no longer
>apply, or the ration should gradually decrease, once the total number of votes
>cast crosses some threshold (1000 votes?)
I think that instead, it is time to abolish "NO" votes altogether. Of
course, this leaves the door open for the passage of misnamed or otherwise
flawed newsgroups, such as soc.culture.scientists. We could solve that
problem, however, by having a committee of news.groups regulars undertake
a technical review of RFD's, allowing them to proceed to an interest poll
only if they are technically sound. The news.groups regulars would
solicit inpout from all interest parties on news.groups, much as an urban
zoning commission does at a planning hearing.
Christopher B. Stone
In article <Pine.A41.3.95.970113...@tortola.u.arizona.edu>,
Emil Sanamyan <em...@U.Arizona.EDU> wrote:
>On 13 Jan 1997, Christopher B. Stone wrote:
>> ...and we now have another fine vote in the tradition of
>> soc.culture.macedonia and soc.culture.indian.jammu-kashmir.
>As far as I can tell the above two cases were very different from SCA-M,
>in that there was a problem with names of groups (what's scij-k? afaik it
>should either be sci or scj-k, or both)
Bingo, and hordes of Indian nationalists flooded the votetaker with "yes"
votes on s.c.i.jammu-kashmir, because they wanted to reinforce Indian's
claims to Kashmir. And your problem with soc.culture.macedonia was what?
>problem with SCA-M was with its
>_moderators_, and I wrote to Christofer Stone and to moderators repeatedly
>about that as early as October of last year. But neither Stone nor prop.
>moderators (those who had bothered to reply) cared enough about the
>group's creation, to run any decent PR campaign.
First off, this is a lie: I certainly replied to your e-mail messages,
as did Adil. At the time, I even recommended to him that you *should* be
a moderator, although given your hysterical tone now, perhaps he was right
to reject my advice.
Second, please learn something about how newsgroups are
created. A CFV is supposed to be an interest poll, not a "PR campaign"
amongst Azeris. We publicized the RFD to the extent the guidelines
permit. (I hasten to add that in future, maybe proponents *should*
actively solicit nationalist YES votes, since the UVV has shown itself to
be a paper tiger in terms of weeding nationalist votes out.)
Also, if you have comments on a given RFD, you are supposed to make them
in news.groups, not by sending numerous e-mail messages to the proponents
and mentors.
>Armenians voted against this group, because moderators of this group are
>ignorant and stubborn, and therefore biased.
First off, do you seriously purport to tell me that 62 voters from the
American University of Armenia even knew what a "moderated Usenet group"
*is*? Do you seriously mean to tell me that all the Armenians who voted
against the group *read* the CFV? If the group was so technically flawed,
why didn't lots of news.groups regulars vote against it, as we did on
soc.culture.kashmir?
Incidentally, I would hardly call affiliates of the Soros Foundation
"ignorant and stubborn," unless they made an incredibly bad hire. (One of
the proposed moderators works for the Soros Foundation in Prague. George
Soros is a well-known philanthropist -- with a libertarian bent to boot --
who has worked on reform in the former Soviet Union. It's a very well
respected foundation in the academic community.)
>I told Chris Stone many a
>time, but he didn't care that the proposed moderator (Adil Baguirov - the
>only one of five I have ever seen posting in usenet) posted revisionist
>articles under his actual and forged accounts;
I do not believe you.
>he didn't care that the
>same Baguirov & Co. disallow any discussion of Armeno-Azerbaijani topics
>on their E-Majlis listerve about Azerbaijan, while that doesn't stop him
>from posting his (government's) official positions vis-a-vis Armenia; that
>is censorship.
No, you do not realize that there is a distinction between mailing lists
and newsgroups.
I run a mailing list on defense conversion in the former Soviet Union, and
I restrict membership very tightly, in a way unacceptable on a newsgroup.
I am currently mentoring a proposal for talk.politics.bahai, and the RFD
will be posted to a Bahai-only mailing list. Again, such restrictions
would be inappropriate for a newsgroup, but they are appropriate for
mailing lists.
E-majlis is a private mailing list, and Adil is within his rights not to
let you join. That does not make him a bad moderator. Nor does this
objection address the fact there were four other moderators besides Adil.
>Today, unfortunately, political censorship is the way of
>life in Azerbaijan, people are arrested and tortured for no good reason,
>journalists are beaten and arrested, if gov-t doesn't like their articles
>or cartoons. That seems to be just fine with A. Baguirov and C. Stone.
This is an ad-hominem attack.
Incidentally, how many of the proposed moderators were based *IN*
Azerbaijan? All of them were expatriates, in some way, and therefore at
liberty to post what they like. Do you seriously mean to say that someone
who works for the Soros Foundation supports the arbitrary detention of
jounalists? This is precisely what the Soros Foundation WORKS AGAINST.
>You simply do not make a known child abuser a kindergarden instructor, you
>don't make a known censor into a moderator.
>May be them or you, but not me. Being born and having grown up in
>Azerbaijan, I wasn't even allowed to join the listserve A. Baguirov's
>running, because of political censorship he imposed there.
You were not allowd to join the listserv because it is a private listserv,
one composed mostly of Adil's friends. (I'm not on the list, either.)
You allege that this is because he only allows ethnic Azeris on the
mailing list; I don't know whether this is true, but even so, it doesn't
mean there is any political censorship going on, any more than the
existence of a Bahai-only mailing list means that non-Bahais are censored
on soc.religion.bahai.
Furthermore, you repeatedly e-mailed all the moderators even after they
asked you to stop. This is not behavior I would tolerate on any listserv
I ran.
By the way, would you allow *me* to join the Hayastan list and answer
questions about the RFD there? No? Then you're a hypocrite.
>I repeat again, Armenians voted against this group, because of its
>moderators. Had SCT been moderated in time, I doubt Armenians could ever
>respond to S*rdar Arg*c's ravings.
Serdar Argic's ravings would not have appeared on soc.culture.azerbaijan,
because the charter forbids it; I have every confidence that the
moderators would uphold the charter because a) they have been reasonable
throughout the RFD, not polemical, as you have been, and b) they come from
professional backgrounds, where lunacy is frowned upon.
And to repeat, I doubt that even a quarter of the NO voters even read the
RFD or know what a "moderated Usenet newsgroup" is.
Adil Baguirov
On 15 Jan 1997, Christopher B. Stone wrote:
*In article <853093...@uunet.uu.net>, Jim Davis <j...@primenet.com> wrote:
*
*>Voted NO
*>Adana...@aol.com
*>AECON...@aol.com
*>ALEC...@aol.com
*>Alf...@aol.com
*>Ara...@aol.com
*>Ara...@aol.com
*>ARAM...@aol.com
*>Arm...@aol.com
*>Ar...@aol.com
*>Ash...@aol.com
*>AVar...@aol.com
*>BBulb...@aol.com
*>Bedi...@aol.com
*>Bol...@aol.com
*>Bone...@aol.com
*>BUD...@aol.com
*>Cha...@aol.com
*>Coo...@aol.com
*>CYPRO...@aol.com
*>Da...@aol.com
*>DGK...@aol.com
*>DicGo...@aol.com
*>DK...@aol.com
*>Ec...@aol.com
*>Eman...@aol.com
*>Gar...@aol.com
*>Geoff...@aol.com
*>HOV...@aol.com
*>Hrai...@aol.com
*>HYE...@aol.com
*>HYE...@aol.com
*>Jaz...@aol.com
*>JC...@aol.com
*>Ke...@aol.com
*>Lev...@aol.com
*>Liza...@aol.com
*>MChi...@aol.com
*>Micr...@aol.com
*>MRR...@aol.com
*>Or...@aol.com
*>Ost...@aol.com
*>Rob...@aol.com
*>SAlex...@aol.com
*>SBa...@aol.com
*>Sev...@aol.com
*>Sha...@aol.com
*>SHAN...@aol.com
*>Silv...@aol.com
*>Step...@aol.com
*>Tak...@aol.com
*>VIK...@aol.com
*>Yag...@aol.com
*>Yav...@aol.com
*>ZSA...@aol.com
*
*The below 54 votes from *.aol.com do not have any names attached to them.
*Presumably some of them are "legitimate" (to the extent that
*nationalist-inspired voted can be considered legitimate), but since AOL
*provides so many trial diskettes, some surely must come from fake
*accounts. Why did the UVV not demand real names in this CFV, since it was
*bound to be controversial? I believe the authenticity of these votes
*should be investigated before they are included in the final tally.
*--
*Chris Stone * cbs...@princeton.edu * http://www.princeton.edu/~cbstone
*"Isolationism must become a thing of the past." -Harry Truman
Moreover, they can create up to 4 screen names, and e-mails. Which they
did.
Adil
Christopher B. Stone
In article <Pine.A41.3.95.970113...@tortola.u.arizona.edu>,
Emil Sanamyan <em...@U.Arizona.EDU> wrote:
>> >10043...@compuserve.com Kevork K. Oskanian
>> [snip]
>> >kevork....@ping.be Kevork K.Oskanian
>> >kev...@ath.forthnet.gr KEVORK
>> Are these three voters by any chance the same person? If so, I believe
>> all three votes should be discarded.
>What does Kevork in Greece has to do with Kevork in Belgium with Kevork
>in compuserve. Chris, I really hope you aren't losing it. Kevork Oskanian
>is as common among Armenians as George Goldman in the west.
If I saw three "George Goldmans" voting in a single CFV, all with the same
middle initial, then yes, I would be suspicious, particularly if the CFV
were a controversial one. Compuserve offers accounts all over the world,
and in fact it's a highly popular ISP with people who travel abroad on
business frequently.
--
Chris Stone * cbs...@princeton.edu * http://www.princeton.edu/~cbstone
Christopher B. Stone
In article <5bg2ce$8...@sunsystem5.informatik.tu-muenchen.de>,
Stephan Schulz <sch...@Informatik.TU-Muenchen.DE> wrote:
>Says the man who votes against each and every _unmoderated_
>soc.culture group (and then some). Did it ever occur to you to propose
>a moderated companion group?
Indeed, I *always* proposing adding an unmoderated companion group if
moderation is controversial. That is why I am mentoring
talk.religion.bahai, for instance. Ideally unmoderated companion groups
should go into talk.*. Why don't you go back and look at all the
discussion of the Ethiopian newsgroups, where we had a huge flamewar over
the location of the unmoderated companion group.
Christopher B. Stone
In article <866811d...@iis.ee.ethz.ch>,
Matthias Neeracher <ne...@iis.ee.ethz.ch> wrote:
>I understand there was some Armenian opposition to the proposal, so it seems
>plausible for a lot of votes to have come from there. There were also 50
>votes from baku.az. Top 5 sites were:
I should point out that I would *expect* a lot of votes from Turkey and
Azerbaijan. After all, YES votes are supposed to measure readership
interest in a given proposal, and logically, Azeris probably have some
interest in a newsgroup about their homeland. By contrast, NO votes are
supposed to register *technical* opposition to a proposal; I suspect that
most of the Armenian NO voters didn't even read the CFV, much less debate
in news.groups. Therefore, it's very much a mistake to read votes from
Armenia as an expression of "equal time for Armenians" or something like
that. There was no technical opposition to this proposal on news.groups
during the RFD phase.
Adil Baguirov
On Tue, 14 Jan 1997, Emil Sanamyan wrote:
*I just wanted to clarify the 'insult' situation. Adil sometimes becomes
*as sensitive as a teenage bride. He is welcome to consider that an insult
*too, that's his choice. When my application to his list about Azerbaijan
*was rejected, as he put it "because of previous conflicts with
*Azerbaijan's history" (read we don't like your opinions, we don't want
*you here). I told him approximately the following: Ok, you can play ball
*with yourself, if you wish, only it looks like jerking off.
I will help you to precisely show what you have said:
"Oh well, too bad! Because you can't play ball with yourself.
Well you can, but it looks like jerking off."
You also mentioned "mad" about yourself in that same letter. So you were
already mad back then? Or you wanted to share with your madness with all
the Azerbaijanis? I don't think they were ready, and they refused. By now
I definitely think they were right. Get rid of your madness, Emil, and
then re-apply.
*Since then he, 'insulted', hasn't been the same.
I suppose no one would be. And I was _insulted_ w/o quotes. If you don't
recognize when you cross the border line and start offending people,
that's definitely a problem that needs to be solved. I am not you doctor,
Emil, but I can reassure you that a little respect and true positive
feeling (maybe love) toward you supposed homeland, Azerbaijan, and it's
people, won't hurt. Learn from Fuad Damirov, who is half Armenian (by his
mother) and has been on E-Majlis since I have been there.
*I stand behind what I said.
And yes, I am now insulted twice, only in public now.
When sitting hundreds of miles away, such immature people, or should I say
boys, always "stand" by their nonsence. <:-)
*With this and my response to Chris Stone, I'll need to take a bit of an
*hiatus from this newsgroup. Cheers.
Ohh, we will miss you. You definitely made a great and long lasting
contribution toward "strengthening" ties between Armenia(ns) and the rest
of the world.
Stop by for a cup of tea next time. I would be more that happy to meet my
"compatriot."
All the best,
Adil
"The past is behind us and the future lies ahead."
--Irwin Corey
Zoli Fekete, keeper of hungarian-faq
On 13 Jan 1997, Jay Denebeim wrote:
>
> Hmm, I just had a thought, the only legitimate reasons to vote no is a
> lack of confidence in the moderator, namespace issues, or technical
> no is sufficient to take care of this problem. If the vote taker
> doesn't accept the reason for the no vote, they can pitch it.
Actually, this cure would be even worse than the disease: assuming that
the votetaker would go thru the tedious work of trying to decide which
statement of intent qualifies as a good reason, it'd boil down to
favoring good liars who could cook up some legitimate explanation versus
handicapping sincere opponents (as well as poor liars). You simply cannot
adequately draw that line, and trying so would just place enormous burden
on the already over-strained system!
Stephan Schulz
In article <5bhijg$1...@cnn.Princeton.EDU>,
>Stephan Schulz <sch...@Informatik.TU-Muenchen.DE> wrote:
>
>>Says the man who votes against each and every _unmoderated_
>>soc.culture group (and then some). Did it ever occur to you to propose
>>a moderated companion group?
>
>Indeed, I *always* proposing adding an unmoderated companion group if
>moderation is controversial. That is why I am mentoring
>talk.religion.bahai, for instance. Ideally unmoderated companion groups
>should go into talk.*. Why don't you go back and look at all the
>discussion of the Ethiopian newsgroups, where we had a huge flamewar over
>the location of the unmoderated companion group.
Indeed indeed! You fail to see the symmetry. If proponents want an
unmoderated group in soc, what sane reason can there be to oppose it
when you are always free to create a moderated companion group?
I can see reasons to oppose moderated groups - in particular, a bad
choice of moderators. However, with the semi-established naming
convention of the ".moderated" suffix, I see no reason at all for
opposing reasonably named and chartered unmoderated groups (unlike
e.g. rec.music.white-power).
However, I do not think this thread is the right place to discuss this
issue, in particular since we are unlikely to tell each other many new
thing.
Emil Sanamyan
I would like the news.group readers to note that neither Chris Stone nor
Adil Baguirov had commented on the excerpt I posted over 24 hrs ago. Adil
responded to the message, but deleted the part below.
With this I repeat, I will extend my support to anybody concerned with
creation of an uncensored version of SCAzerbaijan, moderated or not.
Baguirov must be out of the moderating panel.
news.groups #222259 (3 + 0 more) | | \-(1)
From: Emil Sanamyan <em...@U.Arizona.EDU> | \-(1)+-(1)
[1] Re: RESULT: soc.culture.azerbaijan fails | \-[1]
+ 1732:920 |-(1)--(1)--(1)
Date: Tue Jan 14 22:44:22 MST 1997 |-(1)+-(1)--(1)
Organization: The University of Arizona | |-(1)--[1]
Lines: 234
Mime-Version: 1.0
Content-Type: TEXT/PLAIN
In-Reply-To: <5bgp6u$k...@cnn.Princeton.EDU>
On 14 Jan 1997, Christopher B. Stone wrote:
[...]
Adil Baguirov
On Tue, 14 Jan 1997, Emil Sanamyan wrote:
*On 14 Jan 1997, Christopher B. Stone wrote:
[......]
*
*> First off, this is a lie: I certainly replied to your e-mail messages,
*> as did Adil. At the time, I even recommended to him that you *should*
*> be a moderator, although given your hysterical tone now, perhaps he was
*> right to reject my advice.
*
*Did I say you didn't reply? You did. What you didn't do, is to investigate
*Adil's
*internet background. Without analyzing the whole picture you, without even
*contacting other moderators (as of mid-October), you supported a group
*that would be ran by a person who relies on political censorship and four
*others who don't object to that. Where is the lie?
"investigate Adil's internet background..." I think you got me wrong with
David Davidian or yourself, who have something to hide and are subject to
investigation, taking in account your hatefull posts on Azerbaijan. In
fact, here is a post, which dates back to 27 of February, 1996. Of course
you had many more posts before (while I didn't), which are of similar
nature, i.e. expose you hate and bias. Let the readers of news.groups
decide:
=========================================================================
Article: 32798 of talk.politics.soviet
Xref: bcc.ac.uk soc.culture.turkish:121964 soc.culture.soviet:97395 talk.politics.soviet:32798
Newsgroups: soc.culture.turkish,soc.culture.russian,soc.culture.soviet,talk.politics.soviet
From: root@NNN (root)
Subject: Re: root's anti-Armenian Positions (Was Re: Stone's Anti-....)
Date: Tue, 27 Feb 1996 15:05:32 GMT
References: <1996Feb18.0...@ucl.ac.uk> <1996Feb23.2...@ucl.ac.uk> <4gmidk$k...@news.ccit.arizona.edu> <1996Feb25.1...@ucl.ac.uk> <4gukh3$e...@news.ccit.arizona.edu>
Followup-To: soc.culture.turkish,soc.culture.russian,soc.culture.soviet,talk.politics.soviet
Lines: 530
Emil Sanamyan (em...@helium.gas.uug.arizona.edu) wrote:
: _root_-Miuallim!
Muallim! If you dont know the word then dont try to simulate it.
Spelling isnt history which which you can equilibrate with your own
wishes
: Allow me to write, again.
: And if you are truly interested:
: A History of Qarabagh: An Annotated Translation of Mirza Jamal Javanshir
: Qarabaghi's Tarikh-e Qarabagh. By George Bournoutian, Mazda Publishers,
~~~~~~~~~~~
: 1994. Inludes the original in Persian. ISBN 1-56859-011-3
Thank you very much. I was going to write smt like: "if I ever see such
a thinny on my desk it will directly go to the wastebasket, where it
belongs to!". The translation from emotional into english is: I would
prefer _independent_ sources and not of 1994.
: In article <1996Feb25.1...@ucl.ac.uk>, root <root@NNN> wrote:
: >Emil Sanamyan (em...@argon.GAS.UUG.Arizona.EDU) wrote:
: >
: >: In article <1996Feb23.2...@ucl.ac.uk>, root <root@NNN> wrote:
: >: >Dundik (dun...@aol.com) wrote:
:
: >: >: According to the Russian Imperial census of 1897 there were 62,868 Azeri
: >: >: Turks,
: >: >: 1,504 Russians and 73, 953 Armenians in Shusha, so by no means it was an
: >: >: "Azeri enclave". For a reference read Audrey Altstadt's "The Azebaijani
: >: >: Turks", Hoover Institution Press,1992, p.30.
: >: >
: >: >and according to general Shabrov in "Novoya ugroza Russkomu delu na
: >: >Kavkaze" 80% of the families were muslim and 20% armenian
: >: >after Karabakh was attached to Russia. By the beginning of the
: >
: >: Well, guess why? When Karabakh Khanate was attached to Russia it comprised both
: >: Upper (Mountainous) and Lower (Zangelan, Kubatlu, Dzhebrail, Fizuli, Beilagan,
: >: Aghdzhabedi, Barda, Tartar present-day regions of Azerbaijan).
: >
: >You forgot to mention Baku, Gyandja,... and the rest of Azerbaijan. As for
: >Mountainous Karabakh it was not an independent administrative unit within
: >Karabakh Khanate. As such it became only in 1920th when bolsheviks decided
: >to address "armenian question" by separating it from the rest of Azerbaijan.
: >By that time the exodus of azeris had already taken place and azeri population
: >of this artificially created administrative unit was ca. 9%.
: >The fact that you prefer to consider Upper and Lower Karabakh does not
: >necessarily means that in Upper Karabakh armenians had majority, whereas
: >in Karabakh Khanate the ratio was 80:20 (azeri:armenian)
: No, I didn't forget.
: Karabakh Khanate by itself could hardly be called an independent unit. It was
: first Persian, then Russian buffer state.
Hey, whats persian if Iran has still got ca 15 mln azeris? If many of the
persian shahs were azeris? Yes, it was dependent on Persia b4 it was attached
to Russia as well as other azeri khanates in 18th, early 19th century.
As for independence it was _limited_ independence, and I dont have to
chew on this any further.
: Term Azerbaijan as you understand it today, wasn't in use until 1918-20
: Azerbaijani republic was established. Term Azeri had not an ethnic but a
right, there was not Azerbaydzhanskaya Sovetskaya Socialistichekaya Respublika,
there were _AZERI_ khanates. Azeris referred to themselves (as some elderly
do) as muslims and this is typical for muslims surrounded by christians
(e.g. Bosnian muslims). If you are separating _term azeri_ from the ethnicity
you are acting more like a fascist. 1st you say there wasnt such a term, and
then end up with there were no azeris at all.
: geoographic meaning, and was most often used with the population of p.-d.
: Iranian Azerbaijan. At the same time, Turkic or Persian speaking population
: referred to itself, depending on where it was located in p.-d. Azerbaijan,
: e.g. Shirvani (Shemakha-Baku area), Taleshi, Shakkevi, etc.
This is becoming ridiculous! Yes, those who live in Moscow refer to
themselves
as "moskvich", so what? Does it mean that they originate from cars?
: to make a long story short: There is a sufficient evidence present in
: the Upper (Mountainous) Karabakh today, to conclude that Armenians have
: inhabitted the area longer than any other, presently existing ethnic,
: linguistic or religious group.
Yes, and there were azeris and kurds as well! Its you guys who are trying to
prove that there were no azeris there and they didnt have majority b4 it
was attached to Russia.
: E.g. Leafing through "Toponimia Azerbaijana" by G. A. Geybulaev (Pub'd
: "Elm", Baku-1986), on page 114: "V epigraficheskom pamiatnike XII veka v
: Nagornom Karabahe upominayutsia nekotorye armianoyazychnye toponimy:
: Haterk, Handaberd, Hachenaberd, Havkahagats, Alue, Apahe, Eznarants,
: Bchans, Konachovor [+30 i dr. imena propusheny]. V etih toponimah otrazheny
: armianskie slova berd "krepost'", get "reka", kanach "zeleny", tag
: "kvartal", tsov "more", "ozero" i dr. Nekotorye iz etih toponimov
: sushestvuiut i donyne: Dzagulants-Dizak, Hatravank-Hotavank [...]. Eti
: toponimy takzhe svidetel'stvuiut, chto v Nagornom Karabakhe v to vremia
: byli naselennye punkty s armianskim po iazyku naseleniem".
here we go again... Better give me an armenian reference which would with
the same honesty talk about azeris inhabiting Karabakh.
: It was still 1986, mild years, mild "Elm". In its publications in 1988-90
: many of which were bought for my father upon his request by his Azeri
: friends, almost no reference to Armenians in Karabakh before 1820s was
Oh, oh, I am going to cry now. So what you are saying is that azeris were
nice to armenians until 1988, thats b4 armenians decided to start this
bloody conflict. Smotri v _koren'_!
: allowed. New Azeri historiogrophy, e.g historical revisionism, of which
: _abuse_ you, root, are an unfortunate victim, tried to pull along a story
: that Armenians had only settled Karabakh in XIXth century.
Yes, these revisionists are victims, and they are victims of armenian
nationalism with long-long history. Armenians, unlike azeris, revised
their history (and their neighbours as well) long b4 1988. Durnoy
primer zarazitelen.
: There is a clear need to distinguish Upper from Lower Karabakh, to
: understand why Armenian claim is over Upper Karabakh only. Armenians
: lost majority in Lower K. early in the middle ages after first Seljuk/
: Mongol invasions. Armenians kept majority in Upper K. for almost an entire
: recorded history.
Still havent got your numbers! And I doubt if you will manage, since its
hard to believe if census would have been carried out separately for
Upper and Lower Karabakh. Numbers I am aware of:
"the Tsarist administrator Yermakov took a census of the region in 1823, at which time
the ethnic composition of the present territory was 78 percent Turkic and
22 percent Armenian. One of the conditions of the Treaty of Turkmenchay
in 1928 which ended the Russo-Persian War was that Armenians from Iran
received permission to resettle in the Russian Empire. As a consequence,
approximately 50.000 people moved into this territory, all in the area of
Nagorno-Karabakh. A second wave of Armenian immigrants followed during
and after the Crimean War, and a third wave following the Turkish
genocide of 1915". (David Nissman, from the transcript of the US Congress)
: >: That was in
: >: around 1810-15. Population of _Mountainous Karabakh_ was largely Armenian, even
: >: after parts of Dzhevanshir tribe with the help of Armenian Melik of Varanda
: >: (present-day Martuni) established itself in and around Shushi after 1750.
: >
: >thats what you want to believe in. Put your numbers forward if you want to
: If you are called _root_, it doesn't have to signify your Anglo-Saxon roots.
I am forgiving you this time, but if you continue stimulating a sig flame
you will most certainly be plonked. And change the subject title back to
previous, pliiiiz.
: Nor is Baku a Persian city today, although its and many other names in p.-d.
today?? its never been such.
: Azerbaijan are derrived from Persian.
: Melik (Ma'lik) means 'lord' in Arabic, as in warlord, or baron. I do not
: know when this word entered Armenian, but it did.
The point was by whom they were appointed as meliks.
: >: So the key here is: Armenians have been able to preserve majority in _MK_,
~~~~~~~~
no proofs _what_so_ever_
: >: throughout much of known history. Armenians lost majority in _Lower Karabakh_
: >: after Seljuk/Mongol invasions in 12-15th centuries.
: >
: >blah-blah-blah, this is what physicists call "handwaving"
: >
: >: To date Armenians are in
: >: the majority in _MK_,
: >
: >perhaps you would care to explain _how_ they achieved this majority _to date_
: How did Chechens preserve their majority in Chechnia? They were almost fully
: deported in 1940s, they returned. Earlier they fought, some of them
: collaborated with Russians. At times when Russian control would wear off,
: like during an Ottoman invasion of Trascaucasia in 1853 (Crimean war), or
: Civil war in Russia (1918-20), they would regain some territories by
: pushing out Russian settlers (Cossacs). A similr situation existed in Karabakh
: It was a bit more complicated as more empires and groups were directly involved
: but Armenians used methods similar to all other peoples: fought, negotiated,
: resettled, returned.
Yes, and the similar situation exists now with azeris. They have been expelled
by armenians, but they will be _back_!
: >: and Armenians claim is over _MK_, not the valley Lower
: >: Karabakh.
: >
: >yeah, right, and Agdam, Kelbadjar, Shusha, Khodjaly, Kubadly ... have been
: >deserted by martians, not armenians. In 50 years time brainwashed "historians"
: >will talk about exodus of "armenians" from Karabakh in 1988-1992.
: What are you trying to say?
How innocent! See UN Resolutions 822, 853, 884, and "Emergency
International Assistance" for a start. Or have a look on the following:
Survivors reported that Armenian soldiers shot and bayoneted more
than 450 Azeris, many of them women and children. Hundreds, possibly
thousands, were missing and feared dead.
'They were shooting, shooting, shooting,' echoed Rasia Aslanova, who
arrived in Agdam with other women and children who made their way
through Armenian lines. She said her husband, Kayun, and a son-in-law
were massacred in front of her. Her daughter was still missing.
One boy who arrived in Agdam had an ear sliced off.
: >: >20th century the armenian population in Russian Caucasus increased
: >: >from 0.3 mln in 1830 to 1.3 mln. You've been pretty selective
: >: >in choosing the year in your quote.
: >
: >: Although 0.3 mln is an underestimate, Armenian population of Caucasus increased
: >: in those years quite significantly.
: >
: >still handwaving. Gets boring!
: >
: >: that that increase came about in 1820s after a mass exodus of Armenians from
: >: present-day Armenia, _Karabagh_ and Nakhchvan to Georgia (some 300,000 in 1820),
: >: Russian North Caucasus (Armavir, Ekatirinodar) just 20 years prior (1800).
: >
: >Now you've lost me. Territories you are talking about are still part of the
: >Russian Caucasus. Any migration within this territory wouldnt result in
: >an increase by 1 mln.
: Why do you say this?
oh well, lets chew it further: you digression is not relevant
:
: >: E.g Armenian Melik (Baron) Abov of Talish (present-day Shahumian region) left
: >
: >again "armenian melik" but this time with baron attached to it?? Abov was _melik_
: >because he was appointed by azeri (not german) _khan_ (prezident, if you
: >prefer it this way).
: >As for _melik_ itself perhaps we could ask Farid Melikoff to explain the origin and
: >meaning of the term (ironically he has got both azeri _melik_ and german _off_)
: _off_ is hardly german. It's Russian. And Melik is still Arabic (inorigin).
_ov is russian, _off is german. Care to start a new thread in scr?
: Abov's father was _elected_ among local Armenian meliks (lords), and approved
: by Nadir Shah in Isfahan. Both Panakh Khan and Ibrahim Khan (Khans of
: Karabakh) recognized his and four other families as leaders in five Armenian
: districts of the Mountainous Karabakh.
: Farid told me, he stopped reading SCR/SCS.
Is he sitting next to you? Tell hello from me. I wrote him recently, since I
mentioned his name w/out permission (my sincere apologies), but e-mail was
returned back with "user unknown?!".
: >: together with his people (~15,000) for Tiflis in 1899, later joined by another
: >: group
: >: of Armenians from Khachen (p.-d. Askeran) he later settled around Shamkhor
: >: (1820),
: >: after helping Russians capture it.
: >
: >The desire of the 15,000 people to find a better place to live has got
: >nothing to do with the subject. Nevertheless the scenario was typical
: >("helping Russians to capture it").
: There were notable exceptions. Melik Shahnazar of Varanda helped Panakh
: Khan of the Dzhevanshir tribe to subjugate Turkic-Kurdish tribal
: confederation 'Ikirmi-Do'rt' ('Twenty-Four') in p.-d. Beylagan region
: of Azerbaijan (1750s), and later they both fought against an Armenian Melik
: of Dizak. Panakh Khan and Melik Shahnzar - are founders of Shushi.
: I hope you understodd that Melik Shahnazar was Armenian.
no, I cannot possibly _understodd_ :) (no flame). If it was a normal
world or b4 1988 I (hope you too) wouldnt care whether he was armenian,
martian or an indian. And the aim of this conversation is to make it
_normal_. But since we are far away from _normal_, I make my tyni - little
correction:
Panakh was azeri and he was Khan, and Khan > Melik holds,since Khan can
have several Meliks.
: >e E.g. Several thousands of Armenians from Djraberd (present-day
: >: Mardakert) resettled in Sheki Khanate in 1800s and were unwilling to return due
: >: to continious war conditions in Karabakh up until 1830s.
: >
: >So armenians were free to travel from one azeri khanate to another, as well
: >as help Russians to capture them. Is that what you are saying?
: You see, root, there were neither visas, nor borders. Unlike today, feudal
How thoughtfull. The information content of the last statement regarding
visas = zero. I would appreciate if you appreciate my time, since I do
appreciate your precious time (gee, i liked that).
: lords of XVIII/XIXth centuries would _lure_ people into their respective
: areas, with tax-free farming for a year, etc. Transcaucasia, including
: Azerbaijan, of that time was just ravaged by dozens of bloody invasions
: by Ottomans, Persians, and various Tutkic groups from Persia. Feudal lords
good, now you've trapped yourself: if it was persian khanate how could
persians invade their own land?
: needed people, preferably farmers to work the land and pay taxes, and
: finance their semi-states.
: When Russians were inviting Armenians from Persian and Ottoman empires in
: 1820-30s, Persians and Ottomans, were reluctant to let them go, but in the
: end had to oblige to treaties.
> You referred to Sheki khanate previously, and Russians would have renamed
> it to guberniya or uezd if they had it. You see, what you are trying to do
> is to avoid azeris at all, as if they didnt exist and come out of Caspian
> sea one sunny day as a surprise.
>
> : >: You see, _root_,
> : >:both present-day Armenia and Karabakh in those years were
> : >: ravaged battlefronts between Russians, Persians, different Turkic and
> : >: Kurdish nomads. Armenians by that time were mostly in minority in the valley
> : >: areas, e.g. Yerevan by 1800 was 4/5 Muslim. The only areas in which they (we, my
> : >: ancestors) were capable of preserving majority and with that some semblance
> : >: of autonomy, were mountainous areas like Upper (not Lower) Karabakh, some areas
> : >: of Zangezour/Nakhchvan, Sassoun (west of lake Van), and religious/cultural
> : >: centres like Echimadzin and Ashtarak.
> : >
> : >To cut the long story short, armenians did not have any form of the state in
> : >"both present-day Armenia and Karabakh in those years". Both Irevan and
> : >Karabakh were azeri khanates and were ruled by azeri Khans.
>
> : True, except that Khans called themselves Dzevansheri or Kebirli, not
>
> I am not sure about Kebirli, but Dzhevansher means "young lion" translated
> from azeri (how wonderful, a geographic term "azeri" as you refer to it,
> spoke a human language. another trap built by yourself)
>
> : Azeri, and were themselves subordinate to either Persians or Russians.
> : That however does not diminish an Armenian right to have a sovereign state
> : in both areas, right based on historical and modern factors.
>
> Well, they should have told persians, russians, and the geographic term
> "azeri" then.
>
> : >: So roughly, general scheme was: 13-18th centuries Armenians are pushed out of
> : >: their ancestral homeland,
> : >
> : >odd, where exactly was the ancestral homeland.
>
> : Erznka in the west, and Tigranakert in the east, Van in the south, and
> : Lori in the north. Do not get Tigranakert in Karabagh, and Tigranakert in
> : Lesser Armenia mixed up.
>
> I wouldnt, because got no _g_lue where all these places are, except Van.
> But promise to check it out.
>
> : >: most flee the warfare, and overwhelming odds. 19-20th
> : >
> : >that is the root of the problem. They prefer to flee rather than to stay
> : >and defend their homes. And when russians came back...
>
> : That is a misunderstanding and/or misinterpretation. Some never fled, some
> : fled and returned, others fled and never returned. Some fought, others
> : collaborated. This is only natural.
>
> Sorry, couldnt resist:
>
> "When you were lonely, you needed a man. Someone to lean on, well I
> understand. Its only natural, but why did it have to be me?"
> - ABBA
>
> : >: centuries Armenians are moving into areas of Russian occupation, chiefly
> : >: Yerevan Gubernia. [Described in 'Prisoedinenie Vostochnoi Armenii k Rossii',
> : >: Sovetakan Grokh].
> : >
> : >they decided to return back and push away those who preferred to stay, rather
> : >than to flee.
>
>
> : You mean those who pushed them away just 10-20 years prior? If you throw
>
> I dont, you do.
>
> : somebody out of his/her house with intention to take it over,
> : I am sure you are going to stay!
>
> Tell that to 1.1 mln azeri refugees and those armenians who have an eye
> (better tablichka "zanyat") on their houses (those which have not been
> burnt yet)!
>
> : Also, you are taking a very simplistic approach. There were some Armenians
> : who fought against Russians, there were many Turkic tribesmen who fought
> : against Persians on a Russian side. Some changed sides a number of times.
> : E.g. last Karabakh Khan MehmedKuli (1799-1806), helped Russians occupy
> : Karabakh and Shirvan, quell an uprising in Giandzha. Then fled to Persia,
> : came back and was defeted by a combined Armeno-Turkic-Russian force of
> : "those who stayed", and thereafter dissappeared into the void.
>
> I dont usually quote twice, but I'll do it this time w/ pleasure:
> "A little inaccuracy sometimes saves a ton of explanation."*
>
> You provided a ton of unnecessary information.
>
> : >: >: From Mandelstam's "Faetonshchik" written in June 1931. Osip Mandelstam,
> : >: >: "Polnoe sobranie stikhotvorenii", Sankt Peterburg, 1995, p. 210 I would
> : >: >: rather trust Nadezhda Mandelstam rather than some "sovietologist" on this
> : >: >: issue. Here is what she had to say about their visit of Shusha in the fall
> : >: >: of 1930:
> : >: >
> : >: >: "My proshlis' po ulitsam, i vsidu odno i to zhe: dva riada domov bez
> : >: >: krysh, bez okon, bez dverei ... Govoriat, chto posle rezni vse kolodtsy
> : >: >: byli zabity trupami armian..." Ibid., p.584
> : >: >
> : >: >Your attempt to refer to N.Mandelstam fails by the very quote itself:
> : >: >"...Govoriat...=...they say...". One fact for your attention: as a result
> : >: >of atrocities taken place between 1910-1920 (remember Andronik) azeri
> : >: >population of Karabakh decreased to less than 9%. Even in the light
> : >: >of the numbers quoted by you this is outrageous. Those who survived in
> : >: >Karabakh were armenians and N. Mandelstam reproduced exactly what _they_
> : >: >said.
> : >
> : >: Another wrong. By the time Melshtam visited Shushi it was exclusevely
> : >: Azeri, since almost all City Armenians were either killed or expelled in
> : >: 1920
> : >
> : >Lets put together what you and Dundik are claiming: Armenians were killed or
> : >expelled from Shusha in 1920. Now Dundik refered to the azeri population
> : >of Shusha in 1897 as ~63 thousand. Since bolshevik Karabakh also included
> : >Shusha and had about 9% azeri population this in the light of your claims
> : >(armenians were killed, azeris survived) would mean that the total
> : >population of MK was about 0.7 mln! The population
> : >of MK was never that much (it was about 150 thousand). And this is rough
> : >estimate based on the assumption that all the azeri population of MK was
> : >in Shusha. If we were to take more realistic picture we will end up with
> : >a number somewhere close to million. So, either _azeris_ were killed
> : >and expelled or get your arithmetic straight.
>
> : Dundik took the figures from Audrey Alstadt book "Azerbaijani Turks", that's
> : what he claimed at least. Now, I doubt Shushi's population was ever that high.
> : However, I remember a figure of 300,000+ for Mountainous Karabakh's total
>
> perhaps it was for the whole Karabakh? that would have make sense. But, anyway,
> you cannot remember those details. People are used to think of MK as whole
> Karabakh and I dont blame you.
>
> : population by 1900. In 1900-40s more than a hundred thousand Armenians left
> : the area for mostly economic reasons, for either Erevan, Baku, or Russia.
> : Some 40,000, mostly Armenians, were called up during WWII, and half of them
> : were killed.
> : Azeris, as they wouldn't call themselves until recently, were mortal too.
> ~~~~~~
> Oh, finally, but with a little_tiny_dirty_disgusting_untrue and vague remark,
> following it.
>
> : Most of them were still nomads, and most migrated to better pastures.
> ~~~~
> fuu, I am disgusted by your attitude! Prove it or swallow it!
>
> : >: I have no need for Mandelshtam's support. To prove that Armenians were present
> : >: in Karabagh much longer than any Turkic or Kurdish tribes, one only needs to
> : >: do some archeological research.
> : >
> : >I remember the history of one of such archeologival researches in present
> : >day Armenia. They found some grave stones with names on them in the south part
> : >of the country and soon the local archeologists came up with a conclusion that
> : >these are >N000 years old and armenians in those days had an alphabet which
> : >was older than Chinese alphabet. It was a story which found its way not only
> : >to the local historical journals, but also to the central armenian "komsomol" newspaper.
> : >The story ended sadly with a letter from Academician Piotrovskiy to Armenian academy
> : >of Sciences in which he proved that these are grave stones of 14th century
> : >and names on them are azeri names in Arabic alphabet if read from right to left.
> : >You never know whose bones (albanian, azeri or armenian) you are going to find!
> : >
> : >: If circumstances do not permit visiting the
> : >: area, try reading a few books.
> : >
> : >grrr, you mean _a few_ books _you_'ve read. Alas, I had enough.
> : >I suggest we discontinue this conversation b4 your ignorance gets
> : >any worse. If you have a courage to come over your patronizing
> : >tone, I may consider renewing this "exchange of views". But until
> : >then, you are out.
>
> : It is already a second anecdote you are giving me. Both sound improbable.
>
> Digressing from the subject: v kazhdoy shutke 40% pravdy. It aint anecdote.
>
> : Do you think an Armenian archeologist cannot tell 14th century (which is
> : virtually the same today) Arabic from cuniform? There was no such thing as
> : 'Azeri name' back then. Oh well..
>
> yes, _one_ single archeologist can make mistake, even if he is Armenian.
> It also comes from the desire to find smt snogebatelniy (I doubt if
> any russian speaking female reader will reach until this part of the
> text anyway, but u did), I wouldnt get too hash on that.
>
> : Neither anecdote means anything anyway.
> : I apologize, if my tone was patronizing (for all I know you may be of my
> : late grand-father's age),
>
> Your apology w/ a libel in ()s, is worse than your patronizing tone.
> I dont have to remind you rules of netiquete, do I? Anyway, I had
> a successful day and I am in a good mood. So I ignore ()s. And to make
> things smoother than they may look like I apologise - no ()s - too if
> I was a bit emotional above or in a previous message
>
> : but you see I cannot be out, if I do not want to be
> : out.
>
> out implied to my sight only.
>
> : >"I don't have to take this abuse from you - I've got hundreds of people
> : >waiting to abuse me."
> : >- Peter Venkman [Ghostbusters]
> : >
>
> : My condolences,
> : Emil'
>
> take care and see you around.
>
> And now, time for the quote of the day:
>
> "But you will say that although it is in the understanding, it does not
> follow that it is understood. But observe the fact of its being
> understood does necessitate its being in the understanding. For as what
> is conceived, is conceived by conception, as it is conceived, so is in
> conception; so what is understood, is understood by understanding, and
> what is understood by understanding, as it is understood, so is in the
> understanding. What can be more clear than this?"
> -St. Anselam
*> Second, please learn something about how newsgroups are
*> created. A CFV is supposed to be an interest poll, not a "PR campaign"
*> amongst Azeris. We publicized the RFD to the extent the guidelines
*> permit. (I hasten to add that in future, maybe proponents *should*
*> actively solicit nationalist YES votes, since the UVV has shown itself
*> to be a paper tiger in terms of weeding nationalist votes out.)
*
*> Also, if you have comments on a given RFD, you are supposed to make them
*> in news.groups, not by sending numerous e-mail messages to the
*> proponents and mentors.
*
*I'll take a note of that. However, you must understand, that by introducing
*moderation you become responsible for assuring the public that the
*proposed moderators are not going to be political censors, hence the
*reference to PR. Especially in such a volatile topics that is Azerbaijan.
It was. No one had problem except for Armenian nationalists. And
Azerbaijan is not a "topic." It's a country, which has a lot of topics for
discussions, especially on it's culture, arts, science, Internet
developments, etc. Meanwhile, it seems that Armenia and Armenians have
nothing else to (sabotage) do than oppose other's beginnings, and
concentrate only on one thing.
*> First off, do you seriously purport to tell me that 62 voters from the
*> American University of Armenia even knew what a "moderated Usenet group"
*> *is*? Do you seriously mean to tell me that all the Armenians who voted
*> against the group *read* the CFV? If the group was so technically flawed,
*> why didn't lots of news.groups regulars vote against it, as we did on
*> soc.culture.kashmir?
*
*I can't answer for them, why don't you ask them directly?
Perhaps I can help you. They don't have USENET access, to receive any news
through USENET, so they can't answer. And some of them probably don't
exist anymore, as the System Administrator of AUA.AM was distributing the
urge to vote NO -- which is rather serious, since he has priviliges to
create new accounts.
*> Incidentally, I would hardly call affiliates of the Soros Foundation
*> "ignorant and stubborn," unless they made an incredibly bad hire. (One of
*> the proposed moderators works for the Soros Foundation in Prague. George
*> Soros is a well-known philanthropist -- with a libertarian bent to boot --
*> who has worked on reform in the former Soviet Union. It's a very well
*> respected foundation in the academic community.)
*
*Chris, I initially held Elin Suleymanov in a very high esteem, just because
*of his affiliation. I was thankful, when he wrote to me stating that he
*understood my concerns, he even asked of ways I could help create the group
*and possibly participate as a moderator. I sent in my ideas, and answers to
*his queries (that was still in October, I reckon). Week, two weeks, a month
*have gone by, I wrote to you about that, there was no more responses. I think
*I wrote twice inquiring, if my messages were received. Silence. And then
*it became clear that Elin too didn't object to his cousin's posture and
*actions. They thought they could ignore these objections and just score on
*votes.
Once more, I guess then Emil Danielyan, working for OMRI, SOROS
Foundation, is biased, since he voted NO on s.c.a., according to your
logic, which is none.
*Armenian to apply to his list (and disclaimer said that anyone with interest
*in Azerbaijan can apply), and was rejected as he put it: "because of previous
*conflicts with history of Azerbaijan". Huh? Dr. Farid Meandoab didn't have
*a problem with me on his list, neither did the short-lived list of Farkhad
*Djangirov. Later, he did begin to accept Armenians to avoid discrimination
*charges. But what good does his new 'openness' do, if one of the
*guidelines of the group is as follows:
*
* - No discussions of Azeri/Armenian, Turkish/Armenian past
* - and/or present relations or history.
*
*What is that? Censorship.
It's not, and you know that as well. And some of your friends
systematically break the rule. It was intended for prevention of flame
war, like the one you love to start and conduct everywhere you go. Here is
what a 7-year old Hayastan says, which is a discrimination and censorship,
as it accepts a debatable by other scholars event (while in E-Majlis-L,
there is no such thing--you don't have to change your beliefs):
"c) No "Genocide happened/didn't happen" debates here. The Genocide of
Armenians by the Turks is a historical fact, period. It is not a
matter of viewpoint or opinion. People who are ignorant of history,
or who wish to revise the historical record for their own ends must
take their posts elsewhere, as must people who maintain that 1+1=3.
Likewise, Armenians who choose to debate such people must take their
posts elsewhere. If you wish to debate the occurrence of the
Genocide, it's raging on in soc.culture.turkish on Usenet; go there."
*
*[....]
*
*> You were not allowd to join the listserv because it is a private listserv,
*> one composed mostly of Adil's friends. (I'm not on the list, either.)
*> You allege that this is because he only allows ethnic Azeris on the
*> mailing list; I don't know whether this is true, but even so, it doesn't
*> mean there is any political censorship going on, any more than the
*> existence of a Bahai-only mailing list means that non-Bahais are
*> censored on soc.religion.bahai.
*
*Well you should have joined, that would give you a relatively good taste of
*Adil's managerial skills, that you are defending. It often takes weeks to
*complete a request for membership to join the list, sometimes requests are
*repeatedly ignored - case of Hovik Manoucharian. Btw, I never alleged that
*he only allows Azeris in, I merely quoted him, as saying: "Look, this list
*is for Azeris."
(?) I don't know any "Hovik Manoucharian." There was a request from Ovanes
Manucharyan (is it the same person?) and I have described relation with
him in my previous post. I will post his letter to me shortly. Moreover, I
was out until Jan 9th, 1997, so could not reply, and Ovanes (if that's the
same person) as well as other knew and know that.
*> By the way, would you allow *me* to join the Hayastan list and answer
*> questions about the RFD there? No? Then you're a hypocrite.
*
*What are you talking about? Noone needs anybody's permission to join
*hayastan. Anyone who sends in a request message is accepted automatically.
*Send a message to hayastan...@usc.edu containing this line only:
*subscribe hayastan [your e-mail] [your first and last name]
*without brackets, and you are on in about 24 hrs.
"About 24 hrs." you say? Then what about Murat bey, who had to wait for
_several_ days (more than 24 hrs!) to get it. You know why? Because the
subscriptions are by approval of the owner, just like E-Majlis-L.
In my next message, I will post Ovanes' message, as well as more details
on the vote fraud by Armenian nationalists.
Sincerely,
Adil
Christopher B. Stone
>Voted NO
>Adana...@aol.com
>AECON...@aol.com
>ALEC...@aol.com
>Alf...@aol.com
>Ara...@aol.com
>Ara...@aol.com
>ARAM...@aol.com
>Arm...@aol.com
>Ar...@aol.com
>Ash...@aol.com
>AVar...@aol.com
>BBulb...@aol.com
>Bedi...@aol.com
>Bol...@aol.com
>Bone...@aol.com
>BUD...@aol.com
>Cha...@aol.com
>Coo...@aol.com
>CYPRO...@aol.com
>Da...@aol.com
>DGK...@aol.com
>DicGo...@aol.com
>DK...@aol.com
>Ec...@aol.com
>Eman...@aol.com
>Gar...@aol.com
>Geoff...@aol.com
>HOV...@aol.com
>Hrai...@aol.com
>HYE...@aol.com
>HYE...@aol.com
>Jaz...@aol.com
>JC...@aol.com
>Ke...@aol.com
>Lev...@aol.com
>Liza...@aol.com
>MChi...@aol.com
>Micr...@aol.com
>MRR...@aol.com
>Or...@aol.com
>Ost...@aol.com
>Rob...@aol.com
>SAlex...@aol.com
>SBa...@aol.com
>Sev...@aol.com
>Sha...@aol.com
>SHAN...@aol.com
>Silv...@aol.com
>Step...@aol.com
>Tak...@aol.com
>VIK...@aol.com
>Yag...@aol.com
>Yav...@aol.com
>ZSA...@aol.com
The below 54 votes from *.aol.com do not have any names attached to them.
Presumably some of them are "legitimate" (to the extent that
nationalist-inspired voted can be considered legitimate), but since AOL
provides so many trial diskettes, some surely must come from fake
accounts. Why did the UVV not demand real names in this CFV, since it was
bound to be controversial? I believe the authenticity of these votes
should be investigated before they are included in the final tally.
Emil Sanamyan
Adil, what are you trying to prove by reposting this almost year-old
message of mine? That I happened to know something about Transcaucasia's
history? Be my guest post as many times you want. I stand behind what I
said there and elsewhere, do you?
Headers to Adil's favorite:
James J. Davis
In article <5bh90d$q...@cnn.Princeton.EDU>,:The below 54 votes from *.aol.com do not have any names attached to them.
:Presumably some of them are "legitimate" (to the extent that
:nationalist-inspired voted can be considered legitimate), but since AOL
:provides so many trial diskettes, some surely must come from fake
:accounts.
I dug out one of those infamous disks myself and checked it out. I didn't
find any problems with that batch of votes.
And I now know that 'AOL' really stands for 'please wait while we add new
art to AOL'...
: Why did the UVV not demand real names in this CFV, since it was
:bound to be controversial?
'Demanding' just isn't my style.
Lynn Diana Gazis
Christopher B. Stone (cbs...@flagstaff.princeton.edu) wrote:
: In article <853093...@uunet.uu.net>, Jim Davis <j...@primenet.com> wrote:
: > RESULT
: > moderated group soc.culture.azerbaijan fails 1732:920
: ...and we now have another fine vote in the tradition of
: soc.culture.macedonia and soc.culture.indian.jammu-kashmir.
I won't comment on this specific vote, as I was on vacation from
news.groups while discussion was going on (and have been away from the
newsgroups most related to this proposal for a while), and therefore have
no way of evaluating whether there were any legitimate objections to
moderation.
Besides, regardless of whether this particular proposal was well thought
out or poorly thought out, I agree with Chris Stone that votes which
attract huge volumes of votes on nationalistic grounds are a problem. For
that matter, the *process* of rec.music.white-power was problematic (a
friend just recently asked me about it when he found word about the
impending vote *still* circulating on mailing lists) even though the
result is one both Chris Stone and I would agree with.
: News.groups is a paper tiger; no one raised any technical objections to
: this RFD during the discussion phase, and indeed several news.groupies
: praised it. Unfortunately, the Armenian community chose to torpedo this
: group. The nationalist veto rears its ugly head once again.
[snipped rest of message]
I actually believe there are *some* cases where NO votes which fall
largely along national lines may still be valid. I participated in one
of those (and, despite my Greek name, no, it wasn't
soc.culture.makedonija - I voted YES on that one). I think Chris would
probably even appreciate my reasons for voting NO when I did.
Years ago, an unmoderated soc.culture.armenia group was proposed by Ahmet
Cosar (a Turk distinctly unfriendly to Armenians, who was later
associated with the infamous Serdar Argic roboposter). I thought that,
despite Cosar's claims that he was interested in seeing more posting on
Armenian culture, this proposal looked suspiciously like a dumping ground
for the Armenian genocide debate, and, darn it, there was no reason for
the debate to be dumped off of a Turkish culture group and onto an
Armenian one - if it's to be dumped anywhere, it should be dumped on
talk. I said as much during the RFD, and voted NO, as did many Armenians.
Now, I by no means wish to criticize the many thoughtful Turks, some of
them my friends, who voted YES - it was definitely a proposal that
reasonable people could see in more than one way. Nor am I opposed to an
Armenian culture group in principle; I have since pointed one Armenian
toward newsgroup creation FAQs, who chose not to follow through, and, as
Chris knows, when he volunteered to mentor a soc.culture.armenian the
last time it was proposed, by an Armenian, I emailed him offered to
co-mentor the proposal.
I simply think that, any reform designed to deal with the problem of
nationalist voting will have to take into account those cases where the
nationalist NO votes come from the people the group is ostensibly for.
So, if we did go to a two stage process, we'd still need some way for the
committee to poll *within* the soc.culture group in question, to see
whether the group really reflected their desires. Otherwise, with NO
votes eliminated, and technical naming considerations the only grounds
considered by the committee, people can have groups formed for them by
their historic or current enemies, with names and moderation policies
which they themselves would find objectionable.
Another concern is that any new system would need to take account of
objections to moderation, and at least make sure an unmoderated
alternative is provided in that case.
One possible partial solution would be to remove the requirement that all
votes be only on individual groups, and allow proponents to creatively
link groups together in some cases. For example, if Greeks want to add a
soc.culture.greek.moderated, and Turks want to add a
soc.culture.turkish.moderated, two groups of proponents could get
together on a join proposal, and thereby reduce the potential for
nationalist NO votes. A weakly moderated group (no roboposting or forged
postings, no massive crossposts) for Turkish-Armenian disputes might be
desirable, and provide a forum which allows for a free exchange of
ideas. I don't know whether people are actually interested in such a
group, though. And linking proposals wouldn't address the issue of
groups which are voted in or out because of the political ramifications
of the *name* of the group.
I do definitely oppose the alternative which Jay suggests, of including
reasons for votes and letting the vote-taker reject those considered
bad. I don't want each vote-taker made arbiter of people's reasons for
voting; that destroys the whole neutrality of vote-takers which has made
them so useful. Better to go directly to a naming committee, than a
bunch of individual vote-takers acting in that role. Moreover, the
soc.culture.makedonija vote was in fact, on purely technical grounds,
based on correct reasons; we all agree that it should be possible to
object to badly named groups, and that, from the Greek point of view, was
exactly what the Greeks were doing. Every one of those Greeks would, in
good conscience, have been able to write that they objected to the group
on grounds that it was badly named. I say this not to defend the result,
which I disagreed with, but rather to point out that nationalist votes
can be fitted into a small category of acceptable reasons just as easily
as non-nationalist ones. (The same holds for this group, evidently,
since mistrust of the moderators is generally considered a valid reason
to vote NO, and that is exactly the reason being offered on the Armenian
side.)
Lynn Gazis-Sax
Jonathan Jones
In article <5bgkm3$b...@jimmy.zippo.com>,
IMHO that *is* the right way for it to be. A big 8 newsgroup is only
justified if there is wide ranging interest, across a reasonable portion
of the net. Otherwise it should be implemented by some more local
solution.
To take an extreme case, suppose a newsgroup receives 1000 YES votes,
all of which come from AOL. Should a big 8 group be formed? Of course
not! This is a perfect candidate for some local AOL solution.
Jonathan
epsilon
On 15 Jan 1997, Christopher B. Stone wrote:
> Ideally unmoderated companion groups
> should go into talk.*. Why don't you go back and look at all the
> discussion of the Ethiopian newsgroups, where we had a huge flamewar over
> the location of the unmoderated companion group.
> --
> Chris Stone * cbs...@princeton.edu * http://www.princeton.edu/~cbstone
> "Isolationism must become a thing of the past." -Harry Truman
>
>
While you're at it please advise that, despite your prognosis, the
unmoderated Ethiopian group is doing well while the moderated one is all
but dead. Many pleaded with you then to weigh things based on pariticulars
shaping Ethiopian affairs but you refused to yield; let it pass despite
credible accusations of fraud and now the moderated group is left out to
dry with nothing posted in weeks. [ BTW the unmoderated one is OK with
close to nil spams.]
Christopher B. Stone
In article <Pine.A41.3.95.970115...@tortola.u.arizona.edu>,
Emil Sanamyan <em...@U.Arizona.EDU> wrote:
>I would like the news.group readers to note that neither Chris Stone nor
>Adil Baguirov had commented on the excerpt I posted over 24 hrs ago. Adil
>responded to the message, but deleted the part below.
>----begin quote----
>
>Subject: Re: test!
>From: Kazbek Aliyev <dj...@usa.net>
>Date: 1996/10/05
>Message-Id: <325727...@usa.net>
>Sender: bagu...@wph-Pc17.usc.edu
[who, in a later article,e allgedly wrote]
>Well, I have trouble finding the "Great Armenia" or even tiny Armenia on
>the maps before 192X's. You know why? -- simply because Armenia never
>existed, just like the myth of the genocide.
Look, what does this prove? It's monumentally easy to forge "header"
lines, so it doesn't even prove Adil wrote the articles. Even if he did,
however, I don't see this as a smoking gun. "Revisionism" (which
obviously is a very politically contentious term itself) does not
necessarily make someone a bad moderator. Moderators don't abandon their
political views when they become moderators; rather, the test is how
tolerant they are of *other* views.
During the soc.culture.ethiopia RFD, we had one moderator whose views were
quite literally anathema to many Ethiopians; he denied that there ever was
an entity called "Ethiopia" and encouraged Somalis to secede from
Ethiopia. Several of the Amhara moderators resigned when this man joined
the panel. Truth be told, the moderators who resigned had a much better
case than you do, because the Somali moderator -- unlike Adil -- had a
very strident and uncompromising tone that went beyond political disputes.
Nonetheless, he remained on the panel, and as far as I know, has turned
out to be a good moderator.
Emil Sanamyan
On 16 Jan 1997, Christopher B. Stone wrote:
> >----begin quote----
> >
> >Subject: Re: test!
> >From: Kazbek Aliyev <dj...@usa.net>
> >Date: 1996/10/05
> >Message-Id: <325727...@usa.net>
> >Sender: bagu...@wph-Pc17.usc.edu
>
> [who, in a later article,e allgedly wrote]
> >Well, I have trouble finding the "Great Armenia" or even tiny Armenia on
> >the maps before 192X's. You know why? -- simply because Armenia never
> >existed, just like the myth of the genocide.
> Look, what does this prove? It's monumentally easy to forge "header"
> lines, so it doesn't even prove Adil wrote the articles. Even if he did,
> however, I don't see this as a smoking gun. "Revisionism" (which
> obviously is a very politically contentious term itself) does not
> necessarily make someone a bad moderator. Moderators don't abandon their
> political views when they become moderators; rather, the test is how
> tolerant they are of *other* views.
Chris, I am sorry, but with this I am going to have to give up on your
consciousness. I tell you again, instead of blindly believing everything
he says, join his group and ask around how things are being ran there.
Ignorance is not an excuse.
epsilon
On 13 Jan 1997, Christopher B. Stone wrote:
> > This is an amazing number of votes from a single site -- 65 in all, if I
> > counted correctly. I have never seen a post from this site on any Usenet
> > group. I think we must recognize the strong possibility that an organized
> > NO campaign took place at this site in violation of Usenet rules. I call
> > upon Tale and the UVV to consider elminating these votes if their
> > authenticity cannot be proven.
>
Could this be the case of the chicken coming home to roost ? Does Chris
notice a parallel btween this case and the formation of the Ethiopian
groups except that he was on the other side defending an enormous block
vote coming from a single site then? It is pathetic!
Christopher B. Stone
In article <gazissaxE...@netcom.com>,
Lynn Diana Gazis <gazi...@netcom.com> wrote:
>I actually believe there are *some* cases where NO votes which fall
>largely along national lines may still be valid...
>Years ago, an unmoderated soc.culture.armenia group was proposed by Ahmet
>Cosar (a Turk distinctly unfriendly to Armenians, who was later
>associated with the infamous Serdar Argic roboposter). I thought that,
>despite Cosar's claims that he was interested in seeing more posting on
>Armenian culture, this proposal looked suspiciously like a dumping ground
>for the Armenian genocide debate, and, darn it, there was no reason for
>the debate to be dumped off of a Turkish culture group and onto an
>Armenian one - if it's to be dumped anywhere, it should be dumped on
>talk. I said as much during the RFD, and voted NO, as did many Armenians.
Yes, I can certainly see how a NO vote would be legitimate in this case --
not just for Armenians, of course, but for anyone who reads news.groups.
Another case in which nationalist NO votes were justified was
soc.culture.indian.jammu-kashmir.
Still, I should point out that in both these instances, the proposals
never would have been brought up had we developed some procedures to
prevent nationalists from manipulating news.groups. In the case of
s.c.i.jammu-kashmir, the YES voters wanted to underscore Indian claims to
Kashmir. And in the case of s.c.armenia, Mr. Cosar was a nationlist Turk,
wasn't he? (While I certainly sympathize with the goal of getting the
flamewars out of soc.culture.turkish, you're quite right that the dumping
ground belongs in talk.*.)
>...as Chris knows, when he volunteered to mentor a soc.culture.armenian
>the last time it was proposed, by an Armenian, I emailed him offered to
>co-mentor the proposal.
Unfortunately, Saro Chekarian never replied to my e-mail messages, so it
appears that proposal won't go forward.
>I simply think that, any reform designed to deal with the problem of
>nationalist voting will have to take into account those cases where the
>nationalist NO votes come from the people the group is ostensibly for.
>So, if we did go to a two stage process, we'd still need some way for the
>committee to poll *within* the soc.culture group in question, to see
>whether the group really reflected their desires. Otherwise, with NO
>votes eliminated, and technical naming considerations the only grounds
>considered by the committee, people can have groups formed for them by
>their historic or current enemies, with names and moderation policies
>which they themselves would find objectionable.
But surely the naming committee would be justified in rejecting a group
proposed for these reasons? For instance, group-advice and news.groups
were almost unanimously against s.c.i.jammu-kashmir, and the nationalist
NO votes came from Kashmiris themselves.
>One possible partial solution would be to remove the requirement that all
>votes be only on individual groups, and allow proponents to creatively
>link groups together in some cases. For example, if Greeks want to add a
>soc.culture.greek.moderated, and Turks want to add a
>soc.culture.turkish.moderated, two groups of proponents could get
>together on a join proposal, and thereby reduce the potential for
>nationalist NO votes.
Assuming we had some requirement that people could not vote split-ticket,
this might make a good temporary solution.
>I do definitely oppose the alternative which Jay suggests, of including
>reasons for votes and letting the vote-taker reject those considered
>bad. I don't want each vote-taker made arbiter of people's reasons for
>voting; that destroys the whole neutrality of vote-takers which has made
>them so useful...
These points are very much well-taken.
Arthur Martirosyan
In article
<Pine.SV4.3.94.970113...@aludra.usc.edu>,
Adil Baguirov <bagu...@aludra.usc.edu> wrote:
>I think the very chauvinistic, one-nation's minority (920
>NO votes) showed an excellent case of injustice, unfairness
>and hate toward the multi-national majority (1732 YES
>votes).
You reveal a tremendous bias, Adil. How dare you call 920
people chauvinists if you cannot even know the motives of
voters? By the way, there are about 75% Armenians (by last
names) in the yes vote and there are more than 75% Turkics
(by last names) in the no vote. If it was "nationalist
vote" it was on both sides. But I think that things were
more complicated than that. I voted against moderation.
And I can easily prove that when and if
soc.culture.azerbaijan (non-moderated) is put on vote. And
I will contribute on architecture, music and linguistic
history of Azerbaijan once the group is in place. As to
"multi-national majority," one has to look into that claim
very carefully. For instance, the bulk of .su (Soviet Union)
votes (21) was cast from two domains dubna and tyumen (22).
Of 9 Dubna votes 6 are Turkic, 2 Slavs and 1 Georgian. Of 12
oil&gas Tyumen votes 5 are Turkic and the rest Slavs. Open
Media&Research Institute in Prague contributed 9 yes votes.
The Institute is funded by George Soros, Stone is correct.
But it does not mean that Elin Sulyemanov (one of proposed
moderators) was hired by George Soros, as Stone claims. I
cannot say anything positive or negative about that proposed
moderator as I have not had any interactions with him
personally. Interestingly, of 8 remaining votes (Suleymanov
naturally is the 9th) one goes under the name Transition and
among 8 others I did not see any names from OMRI's Caucasus
team which probably should have demonstrated the most keen
interest to this group.
>Emil, I hope you don't forget all the NO votes from the
>following sites. If you do, please refresh your memory.
I frankly do not think that multiple votes from one domain
necessarily mean a fraud. Armenians as Turkics have many
votes from the same domain. And it is natural. Most students
are voting from the same school domains. But I well remember
how Adil Baguirov and others on e-majlis were bragging about
their records set (one person claimed over 60) in soliciting
votes. They urged others to join the competition. If
provoked, I will post quotes.
Sincerely,
Arthur Martirosyan
"The most common form of human stupidity is
forgetting what one is trying to do."
Friedrich Nietzsche
Ovanes Manucharyan
Christopher B. Stone wrote:
> Look, what does this prove? It's monumentally easy to forge "header"
> lines, so it doesn't even prove Adil wrote the articles. Even if he did,
Oh, now you are saying that -ADIL did not post- the hateful crap.
Adil should himself deny this instead of you.
> however, I don't see this as a smoking gun. "Revisionism" (which
> obviously is a very politically contentious term itself) does not
> necessarily make someone a bad moderator. Moderators don't abandon their
> political views when they become moderators; rather, the test is how
> tolerant they are of *other* views.
Tolerance. Do not be mislead. Adil Baguirov is a revisionist of the
worst kind. For 2 months I had kindly asked him 2 jion the e-majlis
mailing list. He never even replied to me once. And now he says he was
out. For info purposes he was out from Dec 21st till Jan 8.
Ganapathiraju Sree Ramana Gopal
In article <5bmqf2$p...@cnn.Princeton.EDU>,
Christopher B. Stone <cbs...@tucson.princeton.edu> wrote:
>
>But surely the naming committee would be justified in rejecting a group
>proposed for these reasons? For instance, group-advice and news.groups
>were almost unanimously against s.c.i.jammu-kashmir, and the nationalist
>NO votes came from Kashmiris themselves.
what is the basis for saying that the "news.groups" were [sic] almost
unanimously against sci.jk?
http://dejanews.com still archieves the sci.jk RFD/CFV and the "Result"
fiasco debates.
gopal
Allan Jenoff
Christopher B. Stone (cbs...@flagstaff.princeton.edu) wrote:
: I think that instead, it is time to abolish "NO" votes altogether. Of
It would be better to abolish YES votes. It is easy to find a hundred or
so people to support virtually any newsgroup. It would make more sense
to see if the creation of a newsgroup is strongly opposed by the
community. I'd argue that any newsgroup which generates 200 NO votes
shouldn't exist. It is either a bad idea, a poor name, or a newsgroup
destined to contain 95% flames and trolls.
--
Allan Jenoff
Ovanes Manucharyan
Adil Baguirov wrote:
> *Tolerance. Do not be mislead. Adil Baguirov is a revisionist of the
> *worst kind. For 2 months I had kindly asked him 2 jion the e-majlis
> *mailing list. He never even replied to me once. And now he says he was
> *out. For info purposes he was out from Dec 21st till Jan 8.
>
> I understand you are very upset. Sorry. However, if you mean two month as
I will accept you apology only when I get subscribed to E-majlis.
> from December till January, you are right. Although, your first request to
> me came on Dec 28, and last on Jan 11. Which is merely _one_ month, if you
> forgot your math. So who is a revisionist?
No. If you seen my recent posting with all my messages you will be
convinced that it is indeed 2 months. From Early November.
Ovanes Manucharyan
Christopher B. Stone wrote:
>
> I agree that fraudulent YES votes must be tossed out along with the
> fraudulent NO votes. However, you should recognize the distinction
> between voting to CREATE a forum you want to read, and voting NO to deny
> others that forum.
And what makes you believe that the 920 NO votes were all fradulent and
were made to "deny" others that forum
epsilon
On 16 Jan 1997, Christopher B. Stone wrote:
>
> During the soc.culture.ethiopia RFD, we had one moderator whose views were
> quite literally anathema to many Ethiopians; he denied that there ever was
> an entity called "Ethiopia" and encouraged Somalis to secede from
> Ethiopia. Several of the Amhara moderators resigned when this man joined
> the panel. Truth be told, the moderators who resigned had a much better
> case than you do, because the Somali moderator -- unlike Adil -- had a
> very strident and uncompromising tone that went beyond political disputes.
> Nonetheless, he remained on the panel, and as far as I know, has turned
> out to be a good moderator.
What are you talking about? The moderated Ethiopian group is for all
practical purposes dead. You will be wise to check it out and learn from
your mistakes rather than messing things up for others by trying to pass
your failures as successes. Why are you so obstinate and what is your take
in this matters anyway ?
Adil Baguirov
On Fri, 17 Jan 1997, Ovanes Manucharyan wrote:
*> however, I don't see this as a smoking gun. "Revisionism" (which
*> obviously is a very politically contentious term itself) does not
*> necessarily make someone a bad moderator. Moderators don't abandon their
*> political views when they become moderators; rather, the test is how
*> tolerant they are of *other* views.
*
*Tolerance. Do not be mislead. Adil Baguirov is a revisionist of the
*worst kind. For 2 months I had kindly asked him 2 jion the e-majlis
*mailing list. He never even replied to me once. And now he says he was
*out. For info purposes he was out from Dec 21st till Jan 8.
I understand you are very upset. Sorry. However, if you mean two month as
Christopher B. Stone
In article <5bmvrh$2...@decaxp.harvard.edu>,
Arthur Martirosyan <mart...@law.harvard.edu> wrote:
>You reveal a tremendous bias, Adil. How dare you call 920
>people chauvinists if you cannot even know the motives of
>voters? By the way, there are about 75% Armenians (by last
>names) in the yes vote and there are more than 75% Turkics
>(by last names) in the no vote.
And it never crossed your mind that the Turkic names voted FOR the group
because they were (gasp!) *interested* in Turkic culture?
I agree that fraudulent YES votes must be tossed out along with the
fraudulent NO votes. However, you should recognize the distinction
between voting to CREATE a forum you want to read, and voting NO to deny
others that forum.
The intent behind the former is *precisely* what an interest poll should
measure. The intent behind the latter is mean-spirited, to say the least.
Murat Kalinyaprak
In <gazissaxE...@netcom.com> Lynn Diana Gazis wrote:
Although I agree with much of what you wrote in your
fairly lengty article (which I will trim a lot), and
although I commend your observable efforts to remain
unbiased on the issue, I would like to pick on a few
of your comments if I may...
> Years ago, an unmoderated soc.culture.armenia group was proposed
> by Ahmet Cosar (a Turk distinctly unfriendly to Armenians, who
I will not try to disprove that a certain Turk, or a
number of Turks are not unfriendly to Armenians. But
human intereaction is a two-way street and if you or
anybody else chooses to make a point out of a Turk's
beeing "distinctly unfriendly" to Armenians, I would
expect that they can at least show us some Armenians
who are "distictly friendly" to Turks...
I guess that you or other readers (like me) know him
only through his articles on the Usenet or his pages
on the WWW. Therefore, I invite you and anybody else
reading this to scan the Usenet archives and the WWW
pages to provide us with some examples of Armenians'
being "distictly friendly" to Turks...
If you can not do that, please accept my observation
that Armenians (with the exeption of a possible, yet
negligeable few) are deeply hateful of Turks because
of their certain "unquestionable" views. Personally,
I find it very difficult and sometimes even hopeless
to respond to an "overt and *uncompromising* hatred"
in a "distictly friendly" manner, despite my wish...
> was later associated with the infamous Serdar Argic roboposter).
> I thought that, despite Cosar's claims that he was interested in
> seeing more posting on Armenian culture, this proposal looked sus-
> piciously like a dumping ground for the Armenian genocide debate,
Again, your using the word "suspiciously" here leads
me to ask why is this "suspicion" exists only in one
direction..? Can I be also permitted to express that
the recent 920 "no" votes to defeat the creation of
soc.culture.azerbaijan makes me "suspect" that those
Armenians had nothing positive to post to the group?
Now, I am not talking about Armenians posting "love
letters" to Azerbaijanis... Would anybody here think
the majority of those 920 people had any intentions
at all of posting on "non-contraversial" subjects in
that Azerbaijani newsgroup..? If so, why would they
act so collectively paranoid about being "*possibly*
censured" in that newsgroup..?
One can find the answers in the soc.culture.turkish
archives, that Armenians have absolutely no interest
in anything related to Turkish culture at all! Their
"single-track" interest lies only in their so-called
"Armenian genocide" claims...
Reading soc.culture.turkish archives will also show
anyone that the Turks themselves are not interested
in Armenians subjects, and hardly ever discuss them
among themselves... I strongly "suspect" that Turks
would hardly ever raise the subject in any newsgroup
whithout Armenians raising it first.
With these in mind, I would feel fairly comfortable
to argue that the Turks themselves would in fact be
very *unlikely* to see any newsgroup as a "dumping
ground for the Armenian genocide debates". If there
is anything to say along these lines, it may rather
be: "everybody should dump their *garbage* in their
own backyard"...!
> and, darn it, there was no reason for the debate to be dumped
> off of a Turkish culture group and onto an Armenian one - if
> it's to be dumped anywhere, it should be dumped on talk.
I agree, and if anybody could get this through those
920, we would have a soc.culture.azerbaijan today...
(Especially when soc.culture.turkish already exists
as an unlimited dumping ground for Armenians and all!)
> I said as much during the RFD, and voted NO, as did many Armenians.
Your reasons for voting "no" aside, I "suspect:)" that
there are many more reasons why Armenians don't want a
newsgroup and vote against it, which I will address in
a different article. Some of what I expressed here may
sound rather harsh but they are not by any means aimed
at you or others personally. Yet, I wanted to make sure
that the need to look at all this from a broader angle
has been stressed sufficiently...
>Lynn Gazis-Sax
MK
Murat Kalinyaprak
In <E46Eq1.10...@torfree.net> Allan Jenoff wrote:
>Christopher B. Stone (cbs...@flagstaff.princeton.edu) wrote:
>
>>I think that instead, it is time to abolish "NO" votes altogether.
>
>It would be better to abolish YES votes. It is easy to find a
>hundred or so people to support virtually any newsgroup. It would
>make more sense to see if the creation of a newsgroup is strongly
>opposed by the community. I'd argue that any newsgroup which
>generates 200 NO votes shouldn't exist. It is either a bad idea,
>a poor name, or a newsgroup destined to contain 95% flames and trolls.
Hmmm...? You may be onto something here...:)
But why stop at deciding that some newsgroup
shouldn't exist based on so many "no" votes?
Why not decide based on, let's say 20,000??,
"no" votes that the entire "Usenet" itself
shouldn't exist...? :)
MK
Emil Sanamyan
On Thu, 16 Jan 1997, epsilon wrote:
> Could this be the case of the chicken coming home to roost ? Does Chris
> notice a parallel btween this case and the formation of the Ethiopian
> groups except that he was on the other side defending an enormous block
> vote coming from a single site then? It is pathetic!
Now that's interesting. Cognitive dissidence, isn't it?
asbed
In article <qumsp45...@cyclone.stanford.edu>,
Russ Allbery <r...@cs.stanford.edu> wrote:
>Jay Denebeim <dene...@deepthot.cary.nc.us> writes:
>> Hmm, I just had a thought, the only legitimate reasons to vote no is a
>> lack of confidence in the moderator, namespace issues, or technical
>> issues, correct? Perhaps a line where the person says why they voted no
>> is sufficient to take care of this problem. If the vote taker doesn't
>> accept the reason for the no vote, they can pitch it.
>
>That just makes the pre-filled ballots one line longer.
That just makes the process of voting unnecessary and a joke.
If such were the case, the "vote-taker" could just decide to
create the bboard, or not. No voting would be needed.
You guys need to think a little deeper about rules and guidelines.
Early internet rules were mostly technical and idealistic and they
work fine as long as there is no censorship introduced. And we
don't need censorship now either.
This is not a game of nomics for Ivy League know-it-alls.
Asbed
asbed
In article <5bdvfn$8...@jimmy.zippo.com>,
Ron Newman <rne...@cybercom.net> wrote:
>Over 1700 people wanted this group. It is wrong for their will to be
>thwarted by 900 others.
>
>It's time to consider changing the 2/3 rule. Perhaps it should no longer
>apply, or the ration should gradually decrease, once the total number of votes
>cast crosses some threshold (1000 votes?)
Propose an UNMODRATED list, free for open and equal discussion, and you'll
see there will be no opposition.
Rules should not be changed to fit specific agenda. The rules would
have not worked for 15+ years if they were faulty. They're stressed under
the introduction of concepts of censorship, which should remain alien
to the Internet.
Asbed
asbed
In article <5bdqib$a...@cnn.Princeton.EDU>,>In article <E3wss...@ecf.toronto.edu>, <why vote NO?> wrote:
>In any case, opposition to moderation did not defeat
>soc.culture.azerbaijan; nationalist-inspired NO votes did.
You are ABSOLUTELY WRONG, and your inability to see the no-voter's
perspective disqualifies you from any claim to impartiality.
No-Voters are telling you that the reason for the no-vote was
all about moderation/censorship. Do you claim to know why I/we
voted no better than I/we do? Do we need to scream it at you?
NO ON MODERATION!
Please mentor an UNMODERATED sc.azerbaijan, and I shall personally
vote yes on it.
Asbed
asbed
In article <5bduom$l...@cnn.Princeton.EDU>,
Christopher B. Stone <cbs...@flagstaff.princeton.edu> wrote:
>>Voted No
>>----------------------------------------------------------------------------
>>AAIV...@aua.am Armen Aivazian
>> ...
>>YSHI...@aua.am Ervand Shirinian
>
>This is an amazing number of votes from a single site -- 65 in all, if I
>counted correctly. I have never seen a post from this site on any Usenet
>group. I think we must recognize the strong possibility that an organized
>NO campaign took place at this site in violation of Usenet rules. I call
>upon Tale and the UVV to consider elminating these votes if their
>authenticity cannot be proven.
Why is it amazing to you that a site in Armenia is vehemently opposed
to a MODRATED medium of Azeri "discussion". Is this not the same
Azerbaijan that has blockaded Armenia for 4+ years?
What sort of diversity of opinions do you see in the Azeri press,
which is also "moderated" by Aliev? Shall we safely classify their
press as "propaganda"? What conclusions can we draw about a MODRATED
sc.azerbaijan?
Most readers of Usenet bboards, like myself, rarely if ever post to
the net. When was the last time you saw me post on usenet? Shall my
vote be disqualified also, because mostly I only read?
Asbed
Emil Sanamyan
On Thu, 16 Jan 1997, epsilon wrote:
> While you're at it please advise that, despite your prognosis, the
> unmoderated Ethiopian group is doing well while the moderated one is all
> but dead. Many pleaded with you then to weigh things based on pariticulars
> shaping Ethiopian affairs but you refused to yield; let it pass despite
> credible accusations of fraud and now the moderated group is left out to
> dry with nothing posted in weeks. [ BTW the unmoderated one is OK with
> close to nil spams.]
I can note a certain similarity with SCRussian/SCRmoderated. I personally
had no objections to SCRM, since its panel was quite diverse and its
members posted quite frequently, and there was something to judge the
would-be moderators from. But SCRM never did reach the 'high quality
discussion', SCR, and earlier SCSoviet possessed (there was a time when
dozens of poets and prosaics were posting to SCS/SCR daily).
I still consider SCRM an acceptable group, since:
a) unmoderated alternative to it exists;
b) more than anything SCRM's moderators showed themselves tolerant to
any opinions; while all rejected posts are collected and can be read at
the newsgroup's homepage; and there are monthly updates on rejected vs.
accepted posts, etc.
Lynn Diana Gazis
Murat Kalinyaprak (mu...@cyberport.net) wrote:
: In <gazissaxE...@netcom.com> Lynn Diana Gazis wrote:
: Although I agree with much of what you wrote in your
: fairly lengty article (which I will trim a lot), and
: although I commend your observable efforts to remain
: unbiased on the issue, I would like to pick on a few
: of your comments if I may...
: > Years ago, an unmoderated soc.culture.armenia group was proposed
: > by Ahmet Cosar (a Turk distinctly unfriendly to Armenians, who
: I will not try to disprove that a certain Turk, or a
: number of Turks are not unfriendly to Armenians. But
: human intereaction is a two-way street and if you or
: anybody else chooses to make a point out of a Turk's
: beeing "distinctly unfriendly" to Armenians, I would
: expect that they can at least show us some Armenians
: who are "distictly friendly" to Turks...
[snipped a lot here]
I don't want to go into all of the "distinctly unfriendly" people that I
encountered on soc.culture.turkish, but suffice to say that, yes, you are
right, interaction is a two way street, and, in addition to some
unfriendly and even downright racist posts *by* Turks, I also saw some
unfriendly and even downright racist posts *about* Turks, in my time
there. I can well understand why the Azerbaijanis would want
their group moderated, under the circumstances.
I expect that if you and I were to go into specifics of who we found
unfriendly, and who was reasonable, we'd find a lot of people on whom we
disagreed. That's almost inevitable, with you being a Turk and me being a
Greek, because it's human nature to remember most vividly the people who
insult you, most of the time. This is one of the things that makes it
hard to create moderated groups in this part of soc.culture. Adil
Baguirov may, for all I know, have given the Armenians of the net
legitimate reason to mistrust his fairness and fitness for moderation; if
so, Azerbaijanis would be hardly likely to hear the message when it comes
from David Davidian. I did see, in addition to the people who were so far
off base that even people of their own nationality found them
objectionable, people who, for example, were accepted by many Greeks, and
mistrusted by Turks, or vice versa.
But, in any case, I'm troubled by the size of the vote. I am fairly sure
that 920 voters didn't know Adil Baguirov well enough to have an informed
opinion of whether he would make a good moderator. They were responding
to information from friends about what the moderation of the group was
going to be like. And 900+ people saying, yes, it's plausible that an
Azerbaijani group would want to censor us, and we want to be sure it
doesn't happen (taking the Armenians at their word about their concern,
and not attributing to them any motives worse than those they claim) is
still problematic.
If we're going to evaluate moderators, in controversial soc.culture
groups, we need a better way than rumor and word of mouth. Or else, we
need to have strong objection to a moderated group which also has strong
support mean that an unmoderated alternative must be provided, rather than
that the moderated group is dead. I wouldn't be troubled by the loss of
soc.culture.azerbaijan, if I could be fairly comfortable in expecting that
a new version, with a different choice of moderators, or a somewhat
different moderation policy, might pass six months or so down the road.
I'm worried that, with all of the mistrust, it may be difficult at any
time to get a panel of moderators who will satisfy. And, though I very
firmly believe in leaving unmoderated forums open as an outlet for all of
us to discuss our disputes, I'd hate to be left with *only* newsgroups
which sink to the level to which soc.culture.turkish and soc.culture.greek
sunk without moderation.
Lynn Gazis-Sax
asbed
In article <5bgn8b$j...@cnn.Princeton.EDU>,
>Ron Newman <rne...@cybercom.net> wrote:
>
>>It's time to consider changing the 2/3 rule. Perhaps it should no longer
>>apply, or the ration should gradually decrease, once the total number of votes
>>cast crosses some threshold (1000 votes?)
>
Another genius idea from the pro-turkish Ivy League...
What's the point of "voting" then, Mr. Stone?
>course, this leaves the door open for the passage of misnamed or otherwise
>flawed newsgroups...
Such as "moderated" ones? These ideas are sure to run the Internet into
a land of propaganda and abuse, not discussion and debate.
Asbed