(fwd) Re: effectiveness of psychotherapy
Cognitee
DEAR LESLIE,
With such a young son attempting suicide, I would suspect that all in
the family (including you) are quite possibly disturbed. You illustrate
disturbed behavior by inappropriate posts and inappropriately presenting
material out-of-context. I wonder what people really think of a woman
WHOSE KID (AT AGE 7) ATTEMPTS SUICIDE and then she whines about it
out-of-context to newsgroups who have not seen the posts ?? FOR SEVERAL
REASONS I CONDIDER YOU SICK, Leslie. You are.
JUST to show people how extremely out-of-context Leslie presents things
(to defend myself from this psychopathological person's attacks on my
character): The post where I called you a "child killer" was *in
reference to* you supporting false statements about the facts in the
field. Statements, that if believed, would hamper doing needed research
that would likely save lives. ( In any case, I cancelled this post
immediately and posted one with better wording. Almost no on saw the post
with bad wording, since I cancelled it immediately -- unfortunately one of
your pals did !!) I never called anyone else a "child killer." YOU
misrepresent things again to wrongly do (or attempt) character
assassination. Don't you wonder how it looks to the whole world to tell
them about personal, off-topic problems that they know nothing about? And
to behave in front of them in such unseemly ways ??!! KOOK.
P.S. Leslie: Don't worry. You and Peter have won. Whether moderation
passes or not, this will soon be YOUR turf. I shall not hang around with
a unseemly thug like you and a villianous thug like Peter Hood. You
simply are to sick and uncivil for me to deal with any further.
I DO URGE YOU AGAIN TO STOP THE OFF-TOPIC PERSOANL ATTACKS. TRY TO
REMEMBER: YOU ARE SUPPOSEDLY AGAINST THIS BEHAVIOR. YOU AND YOUR
PROPOSED "MODERATOR" FRIENDS WANT THINGS TO BE GOOD AND NOT LIKE THIS.
NOW TAKE ANY MEDS YOU MAY HAVE AND GO TO BED.
In article <340afdae....@news.pipeline.com>, lpa...@pipeline.com wrote:
> [I am adding news.groups to this, because I think some of those folks
> should see this, for better or worse. I am also adding
> alt.support.tourette, because some of the good folks over there were
> also aware of some of Brad "Cognitee" Jesness's statements about them
> and their children, and I think they're entitled to see this. --
> L.P.]
>
>
> >good...@hotmail.com (Cognitee) wrote:
>
> >P.S. The person I was responding to was not someone coming to the group
> >for help, but the deceptive thug and moral idiot, Leslie Packer.
> >
> <taking a very deep breath here lest I use language that I generally
> reserve for private communications>
>
> Mr. Jesness:
>
> This thread began when a mother, Adrianne, talked about having a
> teenage son who had been suicidal and how a pastoral counselor had
> made matters worse. She noted at the beginning of her post that she
> was upset with remarks made (by you, although she didn't name you)
> about professionals killing children, and she felt she needed to speak
> up for professional psychotherapists as a grateful parent. So she
> expressed her appreciation to the professionals who had saved her
> child and helped him turn his life around.
>
> As a mother, I replied to her post, telling her about my son, who had
> attempted suicide because he was in an environment that didn't
> understand his problems and needs. I talked about how that experience
> had affected us and how it had left me determined to get other kids
> like my son the kind of high-level help they need. And I agreed with
> her stated appreciation for professionals and expressed my concerns
> about paraprofessionals who won't know when they're in over their
> heads.
>
> Publicly revealing that your child was suicidal or had attempted
> suicide at the age of 7 (and then had become suicidal on other
> occasions) is not an easy thing to do. It is not something I
> particularly relish talking about publicly as it is incredibly painful
> as a mother to watch your child suffer like that and live in fear that
> you won't be there the next time they decide to try to end it all.
> Even recalling those times is painful. There is no professional
> degree or license in the world that can make that situation any easier
> or less terrifying. This was not a 'professional' post from me to
> her -- it was one mother writing to another. It was a difficult one
> for me to write. I was not about to get into a detailed analysis of
> the professional issues about training, etc. there. My sole purpose
> was to offer her support and let her know that I shared her fears and
> appreciation.
>
> If you had an ounce -- even a scintilla -- of human decency, you would
> have recognized that that was a painfully personal post. If you even
> pretended at professional conduct, you would not have responded as you
> did.
>
> Instead, you decided to jump in and make your usual haranguing and
> harassing statements.
>
> In relatively rapid fire, you sent me three --- THREE -- posts in
> response to my post to that mother. And at the end of one of them,
> you called me "CHILD KILLER."
>
> A mother talks about trying to save her son's life and other kids'
> lives and you call her "CHILD KILLER."
>
> Note that I did not respond to you at that point or to any of those
> posts of yours. Nor will I. I privately e-mailed Bill Goodrich to
> tell him that I would be happy to discuss his reply and the
> professional issues at a later time and in another thread, but that
> thread was not a professional one for me. There is a time and a
> place, Mr. Jesness. That post was neither the time nor the place for
> your attacks, particularly the one "CHILD KILLER," which would never
> be appropriate, but was even less so in that thread.
>
> Note, too, that your posts to me probably discouraged other mothers
> and members of the public from sharing their experiences when they
> saw what you wrote to me. And I don't blame them. They have no
> safety in spp. And some of them aren't as strong as I am and have
> been devastated by your comments. Even I, as strong as I am, was
> numbed by your "CHILD KILLER."
>
> And yet some people feel that a 'no' vote on the CFV to create sppm is
> in order and that you are deserving of their sympathy. News.groupie
> Henrietta Thomas even said so in a.u.k. and implied that I'm a kook
> for nominating you for KotM. Had they had nominations for Bastard of
> the Month, I suspect that someone would have nominated you for that.
>
> [For those in news.groups or alt.support.tourette who did not see the
> original posts by Adrianne and myself, they are available in spp in
> the "effectiveness of psychotherapy" thread. For those in a.s.t. who
> may be confused by the reference to a CFV, there is currently a call
> for votes to create a second, but moderated psychotherapy newsgroup,
> sci.psychology.psychotherapy.moderated (sppm), and the folks in
> news.groups have participated in the discussion, where Mr. Jesness
> has frequently screamed that those in support of sppm are attempting
> to censor him and that his attacks are always necessary and relevant.]
>
> As a mother who nearly lost her child, your insensitivity is hurtful.
> But I have come to expect insensitivity from you, Mr. Jesness.
>
> As a professional, your conduct disgusts me. But I have come to
> expect unprofessional conduct from you, Mr. Jesness.
>
> As a real-life advocate for children with disabilities whom you have
> labeled as "spastics" and "retards" or characterized as barking like
> dogs, I have shared some of your posts with some of the kids, to show
> them the kind of ignorance and garbage they may have to face in their
> lives because they were born with a genetic condition that makes them
> different, in some ways, from their peers. Needless to say, the kids
> aren't too happy with your posts and your characterizations of them.
> They find it somewhat incredible that you claim any professional
> credentials in psychology or counseling. I agree with them.
>
> And for the benefit of all those mothers who ached and/or cried and/or
> fumed when they read your characterization of their children (your
> characterizations of these kids were apparently mentioned in
> alt.support.tourette), and for the benefit of those who have been
> intimidated from posting by your egregious conduct in spp, and at the
> request of my daughter, I have decided to let her (a 12 year-old who
> according to you is a "spastic" and "retard" and who barks like a dog)
> respond to you. Here is her message. It was neither previewed nor
> edited by me.
>
> ----------- begin included messsage --------------
> Dear Mr. Jesness,
> I have a question for you. Do you have any friends? Does
> anyone like you? Why hasn't your wife left you yet? You are the
> biggest asshole in the world! How can you think children with
> disabilities are retards? It's one thing to think it but to actually
> say it! You're SUCH a loser! Lets say you have kids and one of them
> has a disability. Would you think they're a retard or a spastic? You
> probably would. I have Tourette Syndrome. I'm not a retard. I'm an
> honors student, a softball champion, a second degree blackbelt in Tae
> Kwon Do, a champion fighter in three states, plus a good cook. I'm
> only 12! I've accomplished more in my whole life than you ever will.
> And for another thing, STOP calling my mother a child killer! She
> helps children. You just put them down. You're the child killer!So you
> better stop calling my Mom that. Remember, I'm a second degree black
> belt and a champion fighter. Leave my Mom alone.
> Yours only in hate,
> Loren Packer-Hopke
> ----------- end included message ------------------
>
>
> Well, looking at what she just wrote (and yes, she typed it herself,
> thereby demonstrating that she's also superior to you in her spelling
> and typing skills), I don't like the implied threat and will discuss
> that with her, but I told her that I wouldn't edit her at all, and I
> won't. FWIW, I don't think she really would attack you, Mr. Jesness.
> She really does have too much discipline for that. She's just angry.
> As are a lot of other adults and children you've hurt through your spp
> posts.
>
> Loren is right. You _are_ a loser. But I will not let you hurt
> others with your comments. I will NEVER be silent in the face of such
> ignorant and discriminatory comments. Henrietta Thomas and those who
> don't understand should spend a month trying to pick up the pieces of
> the hurt you cause in spp. But I doubt anyone would write to them for
> support, as they would seemingly prefer to dictate to others and block
> people from creating a safe environment for patients and consumers to
> ask questions or express feelings.
>
> Someone talks about their kid trying to kill themselves and you call
> them "CHILD KILLER."
>
> And Ms. Thomas thinks you're deserving of sympathy. Incredible.
>
> I don't know what the phrase "For the Good of Usenet" means. I even
> posted an inquiry asking someone in news.groups to explain what that
> means.
>
> As far as I'm concerned, if "For the Good of Usenet" doesn't include
> stopping people like you from hurting others, then perhaps people have
> their priorities wrong, as there is no _thing_ that is more important
> than people.
>
> If you really want to help children, take John Price's advice and
> destroy your modem. You've done too much harm already.
>
> Totally disrespectfully,
>
> Leslie
> (mother of Loren and Justin, who both have Tourette Syndrome and who
> both can and do out-think, out-feel, out-accomplish, and out-class you
> every damn day of the week)
>
>
>
> >In article <5rocf3$2...@basement.replay.com>, "John M Price, PhD"
> ><jmp...@calweb.com> wrote:
> >
> >> {I am so tempted to crosspost this to news.groups, but they've been through
> >> enough lately.}
> >>
> >> Ok, Brad, please explain this post.
> >>
> >> Is this, too, going to be called (by you) an excellent example of the
> >> appropriateness of your responses and posts in general?
> >>
> >> A couple of people, discussing their kids' problems, and you label one a
> >> CHILD KILLER?
> >>
> >> Is this what you meant by the moderators keeping track of threads, as they
> >> would of course see just how important and appropriate your CHILD KILLER
> >> response here is? Seems to me to be the first name calling is yours. It
> >> usually has been, so nothing's new.
> >>
> >> Is this the reason you wish to suppress the moderated group, so you
can leap
> >> into a discussion by therapists, or clients, or just plain folk, and call
> >> people CHILD KILLERS? You could not do that in a moderated group, of
> >course.
> >>
> >> Let's see, you've been down the nazi line, now CHILD KILLER is your new
> >> thing? Oh, and let's not forget idolatry.
> >>
> >> Do you do this in your neighborhood? Literally leap through windows
> >> accusing folk of being CHILD KILLERS as you might have overheard their
> >> discussing a therapist for their kid's school difficulties?
> >>
> >> Do you barge into parties at the drop af the term psychotherapist and yell
> >> out CHILD KILLER?
> >>
> >> So please explain how this post is important at all, since you've destroyed
> >> any message by calling a discussant a CHILD KILLER.
> >>
> >> Then please destroy your modem. You have finally aptly demonstrated that
> >> you do not deserve any other soapbox outside of the ones that actually held
> >> soap. Go to a local park and yell CHILD KILLER at passing motorists,
> >> cyclists, and please, please, any and all police you see. They do have
> >> psychology in their training of late.
> >>
> >> And yet, you are still an associate member of the APA.
> >>
> >> Something seems terribly wrong with that picture.
> >>
> >> I am finally truely disgusted at the fact that I will likely have to read
> >> you future posts to sppm. Truely disgusted.
> >>
> >> >From: good...@hotmail.com (Cognitee)
> >> >Newsgroups: sci.psychology.psychotherapy
> >> >Subject: Re: effectiveness of psychotherapy
> >> >Date: 30 Jul 1997 16:33:03 GMT
> >> >Organization: Client Advocates
> >> >Lines: 116
> >> >Message-ID: <good_brad-300...@ts002d02.min-mn.concentric.net>
> >> >References: <33DF14...@binus.com>
<33fd932a...@news.pipeline.com>
> >> >NNTP-Posting-Host: ts002d02.min-mn.concentric.net
> >> >Xref: calwebnnrp sci.psychology.psychotherapy:27478
> >> >
> >> >Dear Leslie,
> >> > There are good professional clinicians and bad ones. It is possible to
> >> >have good, well-selected, well-trained other mental health professionals
> >> >("parapros") and there are bad ones. **Fact** is, this area has certainly
> >> >not been sorted out enough for us to typically know when we really need
> >> >people who are "very highly trained" (whatever this might really mean) and
> >> >when we don't. We have not even begun to investigate the utility of
> >> >well-selected and well-trained "paras" and compared them to care provided
> >> >by the supposed "advance" professionals. Carl Rogers (one of the best
> >> >clinical researchers and professionals ever) supported the idea of
> >> >"paras".
> >> > THE FACTS (despite what YOU may *like*, Leslie): There are only a few
> >> >controlled studies comparing other reasonable helpers and professionals --
> >> >and even these were NOT well-trained "paras". This data is decades old
> >> >but it supported MORE use of "paras." Any categorical pronouncement that
> >> >we need people with high graduate degrees to provide all good services is
> >> >simply NOT DATA-BASED and is a blind and recklessly *irresponsible*
> >> >assertion. It is not scientifically justified and is NOT acceptable. In
> >> >the long run the pronouncement you seem to make ( to "use only people who
> >> >have high degress because only they know what they are doing") will harm
> >> >the advancement of science and **harm clients** (and KILL CHILDREN). Good
> >> >"paras" for many cases could well be more accessible and more affordable
> >> >and equally effective -- possibly more effective. They could well serve a
> >> >preventive role as well, allowing for earlier treatment. ***You cannot
> >> >cite any evidence that well indicates otherwise.*** The BEST indirect
> >> >indicators we have (and he BEST evidence we have) supports a much larger
> >> >role for "paras" (WHO **ARE** WELL-SELECTED AND WELL TRAINED).
> >> > YOU JUST WORSHIP DEGREES, LESLIE, SO YOU CAN WORSHIP YOURSELF. Your
> >> >blanket statements are in fact extrordinarily ignorant, unscientific, and
> >> >irresponsible.
> >> >CHILD KILLER !!!
> >> >
--
For a critique of the major problems in the counseling/psychotherapy field AND for SOLUTIONS to these problems, see my web site:
http://www.future.net/~bradj/it.html Major professors in the field have spoken highly of the paper you shall find at that site.
Edna
In article <good_brad-030...@ts003d04.min-mn.concentric.net>,
Cognitee <URL:mailto:good...@hotmail.com> wrote:
Mr. Jeness,
This time you have gone too far. This is the most disgusting, appalling,
disgraceful human behavior I ever had the misfortune of witness.
This post is going to come back to haunt you because *this time* you are
not going to get away with it lightly.
To this day, I have stayed away from the controversy provoked by and around
you. That was because I don't mind your ideas with regard psychology,
science, psychotherapy, counselling, paraprofessionals or whatever personal
criticisms you hold in relation to the field. I may not agree with most of your
opinions but I am perfectly able to accept that you have different view of
the problem and leave it to that.
With regard to your past behavior, as I said a long time ago, I found
you rude and boring; you are not the kind of person I wish to associate
myself with, so I have kept myself well out of your way and you have done the
same in relation to me.
No more Mr. Jeness. Your horrendous attack at the most moving and courageous
account of a mother's fight for her child's life and health puts you bellow the
standards of human decency. Your lack of respect and compassion for human
suffering discredit you as a member of the human race, never mind of a
critic of psychology, psychotherapy or whatever. As a woman and a mother
myself I cannot let you get away with it without speaking out of my revultion.
I am sure I am not alone in this.
...and Mr. Jeness, don't bother to reply. I am not about to have a shouting
match with you neither here in the public forum nor in private by e-mail.
That is not my style. I am more a doer than a talker and I make the
kind of enemy that you could have done without.
-----
Edna
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