Green Card Lottery- Final One?

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Laurence Canter

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Apr 12, 1994, 4:07:23 AM4/12/94
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Green Card Lottery 1994 May Be The Last One!
THE DEADLINE HAS BEEN ANNOUNCED.

The Green Card Lottery is a completely legal program giving away a
certain annual allotment of Green Cards to persons born in certain
countries. The lottery program was scheduled to continue on a
permanent basis. However, recently, Senator Alan J Simpson
introduced a bill into the U. S. Congress which could end any future
lotteries. THE 1994 LOTTERY IS SCHEDULED TO TAKE PLACE
SOON, BUT IT MAY BE THE VERY LAST ONE.

PERSONS BORN IN MOST COUNTRIES QUALIFY, MANY FOR
FIRST TIME.

The only countries NOT qualifying are: Mexico; India; P.R. China;
Taiwan, Philippines, North Korea, Canada, United Kingdom (except
Northern Ireland), Jamaica, Domican Republic, El Salvador and
Vietnam.

Lottery registration will take place soon. 55,000 Green Cards will be
given to those who register correctly. NO JOB IS REQUIRED.

THERE IS A STRICT JUNE DEADLINE. THE TIME TO START IS
NOW!!

For FREE information via Email, send request to
cs...@indirect.com


--
*****************************************************************
Canter & Siegel, Immigration Attorneys
3333 E Camelback Road, Ste 250, Phoenix AZ 85018 USA
cs...@indirect.com telephone (602)661-3911 Fax (602) 451-7617

SJ. Brewster

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Apr 12, 1994, 9:04:01 AM4/12/94
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Laurence Canter (ni...@indirect.com) wrote:
: Green Card Lottery 1994 May Be The Last One!

[zzzzzzzzzap!!]

To satisfy my idle curiosity, could someone out there give a rough estimate
of how many groups Canter the Clown has separately posted this to? It's
appearing everywhere I look...

--
Steve.B...@Bristol.ac.uk
The Great Mornington Crescent Games of History, #1: Bailey vs. Moore 1949
B: Baker Street M: Hammersmith B: Pimlico M: London Bridge B: Bank M: Epping
B: Fairlop M: Perivale B: Fulham Palace Road M: Admiralty Arch B: *resigns*

Ian Jackson

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Apr 12, 1994, 12:22:18 PM4/12/94
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Enclosed is the complaint I have just sent them.

The `introductory documents' I referred to are the current contents of
news.announce.newusers, which I sent only to postm...@indirect.com
and ni...@indirect.com.

Others may wish to do likewise.

Ian Jackson.

From iwj10 Tue Apr 12 17:14:11 1994 BST
To: postm...@indirect.com, postm...@news.sprintlink.net
Cc: ni...@indirect.com
Subject: Advertising should not be posted to USENET.
Bcc: iwj10

I enclose a copy of a posting to alt.sources.patches made by one of
your users.

This is clearly in violation of the charter of the group.

It also looks suspiciously like a fish for a commercial service.

Both are completely unacceptable.

I demand that you cancel the posting forthwith and post an apology to
alt.sources.d.

I shall send you under separate cover some introductory material on
the USENET that you obviously need to read.

Ian Jackson.

Path: lyra.csx.cam.ac.uk!warwick!qmw-dcs!qmw!demon!news2.sprintlink.net!news.sprintlink.net!indirect.com!nike
From: ni...@indirect.com (Laurence Canter)
Newsgroups: alt.sources.patches
Subject: Green Card Lottery- Final One?
Date: 12 Apr 1994 08:46:11 GMT
Organization: Canter & Siegel
Lines: 34
Message-ID: <2odn4j$6...@herald.indirect.com>
NNTP-Posting-Host: id1.indirect.com

[body deleted in this posting to n.a.m & n.g. - iwj]
--
Ian Jackson i...@cam-orl.co.uk ..!uknet!cam-orl!iwj These opinions are my own.
2 Lexington Close, Cambridge CB4 3LS. + 44 223 575512
Cambridge University Computer Laboratory, New Musems Site. + 44 223 334676
Email also via: ijac...@nyx.cs.du.edu PGP2 public key available on request

Albert Cheng

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Apr 12, 1994, 2:51:00 PM4/12/94
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In article <2odkrr$3...@herald.indirect.com>, ni...@indirect.com (Laurence Canter) writes:
>Green Card Lottery 1994 May Be The Last One!
>THE DEADLINE HAS BEEN ANNOUNCED.
>
>The Green Card Lottery is a completely legal program giving away a
>certain annual allotment of Green Cards to persons born in certain
>countries. The lottery program was scheduled to continue on a
>permanent basis. However, recently, Senator Alan J Simpson
>introduced a bill into the U. S. Congress which could end any future
>lotteries. THE 1994 LOTTERY IS SCHEDULED TO TAKE PLACE
>SOON, BUT IT MAY BE THE VERY LAST ONE.

It is a surprise that a trained attorneys would have believed
Congress will ever make anything permenantly final.

>THERE IS A STRICT JUNE DEADLINE. THE TIME TO START IS
>NOW!!
>
>For FREE information via Email, send request to
>cs...@indirect.com

Oh, I see. Now I understand why these attorneys said things
like these. I bet Dave Rhode just joined their firm.

Jim Gillogly

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Apr 12, 1994, 3:18:50 PM4/12/94
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Evidently they simply get another account at a different provider and
repeat the offence there. Perhaps we should concentrate on FAXing them
clues rather than e-mailing. It's more trouble, but would probably have
better luck getting their attention.

I won't bother to look up the FAX number... you can find it anywhere.
--
Jim Gillogly
Highday, 21 Astron S.R. 1994, 19:18

Ron Asbestos Dippold

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Apr 12, 1994, 5:08:36 PM4/12/94
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ni...@indirect.com (Laurence Canter) writes:
>Green Card Lottery 1994 May Be The Last One!
>THE DEADLINE HAS BEEN ANNOUNCED.

>Canter & Siegel, Immigration Attorneys


>3333 E Camelback Road, Ste 250, Phoenix AZ 85018 USA
>cs...@indirect.com telephone (602)661-3911 Fax (602) 451-7617

They were kind enough to leave us their numbers. I suggest we
call/fax our displeasure. One call per person, of course - we
wouldn't want to harass them.

Wonder if these are Palmer's virtual lawyers? They've got the sleaze
factor.
--
I named my dog Herpes. He won't heel.

Steve Simmons

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Apr 12, 1994, 7:18:07 PM4/12/94
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ni...@indirect.com (Laurence Canter) writes:

>Green Card Lottery 1994 May Be The Last One!
>THE DEADLINE HAS BEEN ANNOUNCED.

Yeah, guess whose:

% finger ni...@indirect.com
[indirect.com]
Login: nike Name: Laurence Canter
Directory: /users/n/nike Shell: /etc/disabled
Last login Tue Apr 12 13:25 (MST) on ttypc from phx-ts4
No Plan.
% finger cs...@indirect.com
[indirect.com]
Login: cslaw Name: Laurence Canter
Directory: /users/c/cslaw Shell: /etc/disabled
Last login Tue Apr 12 13:26 (MST) on ttyr1 from phx-ts4
No Plan.

I sent for their information packet so I'd have someone specific to
complain to; from the number of SMTP failures seen it appears that
they are getting lots of mail about now....
--
Msen, Inc - $HOME for the $HOMEless in Michigan. BBS, Internet access, IP
connectivity. 320 Miller Road, Ann Arbor, MI 48103, 313-998-4562.

M. Hedlund

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Apr 12, 1994, 9:52:01 PM4/12/94
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In article <2odk0l$2...@herald.indirect.com>,
ni...@indirect.com (Laurence Canter) wrote:

[commercial solicitation deleted]

I would really like to see every commercial solicitation receive an email
reply from everyone who doesn't like seeing them to inappropriate
newsgroups. If that email reply contained the entire message as posted,
and if every reader who didn't like it replied with the whole posting
included, the poster's inbox would explode.

I've taken to replying -- including the whole posting -- with the line
"This doesn't belong in comp.infosystems.www" added to the bottom. Try it,
it's easy. Let's make a movement of it.

This poster particularly deserves such treatment because a separate copy of
the message was sent to each newsgroup -- it wasn't cross-posted at all.

<only half kidding>
<hed...@teleport.com>

Paul Crossman

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Apr 12, 1994, 10:22:49 PM4/12/94
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In article <Co5DM...@info.bris.ac.uk>,

SJ. Brewster <ma...@irix.bris.ac.uk> wrote:
>Laurence Canter (ni...@indirect.com) wrote:
>: Green Card Lottery 1994 May Be The Last One!
>
>[zzzzzzzzzap!!]
>
>To satisfy my idle curiosity, could someone out there give a rough estimate
>of how many groups Canter the Clown has separately posted this to? It's
>appearing everywhere I look...

I've just begun to bring news to my site again, and I can tell you, this
blasted article is in every newsgroup....

Does this guy have any kind of life??? It must have taken forever to post
it to every newsgroup individually.

sheesh....
--
Paul Crossman "With the lights out it's Metro. Tech. Park
UNIX System Manager less dangerous." 1 Park West
Avid Technology "Gonna find a way; a better Tewksbury, MA 01876
cros...@avid.com way!!!" - Kurt Cobain RIP (508) 640-3147

Ron Asbestos Dippold

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Apr 12, 1994, 10:41:19 PM4/12/94
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pcro...@avid.avid.com (Paul Crossman) writes:
>Does this guy have any kind of life??? It must have taken forever to post
>it to every newsgroup individually.

No doubt it's a script of some kind... He's done this before, BTW -
once from netcom.com.
--
Seeing is believing. You wouldn't have seen it if you hadn't believed it.

CLNizFREE

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Apr 12, 1994, 11:24:07 PM4/12/94
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NOTE: Please read the posting in this forum, entitled GREEN CARD POSTING

It is posted by the sysadmin for the site which originated this junk ::)

Greg Lindahl

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Apr 12, 1994, 11:37:59 PM4/12/94
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In article <2oes6q$p...@rand.org>, Jim Gillogly <j...@rand.org> wrote:

>Evidently they simply get another account at a different provider and
>repeat the offence there. Perhaps we should concentrate on FAXing them
>clues rather than e-mailing. It's more trouble, but would probably have
>better luck getting their attention.

These same folks have gotten thrown off netcom and I believe digex,
for the same thing. They also used to have their own uucp site that
got pulled for the same thing. It's time for someone who lives in
Arizona to try to sic the Better Business Bureau and/or their local
Bar onto them, because this is pretty unethical, although proving that
to the BBB or the Bar might take some persistance.

-- g

Matt Messina

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Apr 13, 1994, 12:42:35 AM4/13/94
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In article <2oeqik$s...@vixen.cso.uiuc.edu>
Albert Cheng, ach...@ncsa.uiuc.edu writes:
> Oh, I see. Now I understand why these attorneys said things
> like these. I bet Dave Rhode just joined their firm.

The Law Firm of Canter, Siegel, Green, Fazio, Rhodes, & Thomas. ;-)

"Nice of them to only post this to only two groups, rather than all of them,"
I thought -- then I saw they've taken the CTIV method, presumably to avoid
the killfiles of people who kill mass cross-posted articles.

I'd support a cancel if his administrators won't do it -- not because of the
content, but to help conserve the resources of those users who must pay to
read news (unlike me). Actually even those of us who get our news for "free"
pay for it -- another reason to support a cancelation.
--
Matt Messina Vote YES on rec.arts.ascii
matt.m...@umich.edu CFV: coming soon to a n.a.newgroups near you

Frank L. Krawczyk

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Apr 12, 1994, 11:57:41 AM4/12/94
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In article <2odle8$4...@herald.indirect.com> ni...@indirect.com (Laurence Canter) writes:
>Green Card Lottery 1994 May Be The Last One!
>THE DEADLINE HAS BEEN ANNOUNCED.
>
[snip] (more info on green card lottery)

>
>For FREE information via Email, send request to
^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^
>cs...@indirect.com

Watch out. These quite questionable lawyers not only bombed
almost all newsgroup with this crap this week. They also tried
to get into business over alt.visa.us for a while. And their
FREE information includes a GENEROUS offer to send your
lottery entry for you for ONLY s.th. in the order of $100.
Since the lottery details are well documented you can do it
yourself for 29 ct.

Frank
>
>
>--
>*****************************************************************


>Canter & Siegel, Immigration Attorneys
>3333 E Camelback Road, Ste 250, Phoenix AZ 85018 USA
>cs...@indirect.com telephone (602)661-3911 Fax (602) 451-7617


--
* - Any opinions expressed are mine; E-Mail: f...@luke.atdiv.lanl.gov *
* Frank Krawczyk, LANL, AOT-17 MS H825, Los Alamos, NM 87545 *
* Don't even think of using my adress to send advertising material *
**********************************************************************

Thomas A. Maufer

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Apr 13, 1994, 8:00:35 AM4/13/94
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In article <hedlund-12...@198.145.56.6>, hed...@teleport.com (M.
Hedlund) wrote:

> I've taken to replying -- including the whole posting -- with the line
> "This doesn't belong in comp.infosystems.www" added to the bottom. Try it,
> it's easy. Let's make a movement of it.

M.--

Actually, since I got this message in virtually
every newsgroup I read, I complained with an e-
mail message consisting of a short complaint,
then n copies of the note...one for each time I
had to hit the D key. The e-mail message was
about 45K. It felt good. Since he's done this
before, I doubt it did any good, though. I like
the idea of jamming their fax machine with
complaints. :)

Tom

Steve Simmons

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Apr 13, 1994, 10:31:47 AM4/13/94
to
If you want to hit these guys where they hurt, complain to the state
bar association. From the current response speed of indirect.com, their
service provider is already paying the price.

Jeffrey D. Wheelhouse

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Apr 13, 1994, 1:21:28 PM4/13/94
to
Matt Messina (mes...@umich.edu) wrote:
: I'd support a cancel if his administrators won't do it -- not because of the

: content, but to help conserve the resources of those users who must pay to
: read news (unlike me). Actually even those of us who get our news for "free"
: pay for it -- another reason to support a cancelation.

I would very much like to cancel the articles... I'm not sure how to do
it efficiently for a situation like this. Anyone who can help me out will
be a net.hero.

Jeff

Message has been deleted

M. Hedlund

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Apr 13, 1994, 9:08:10 PM4/13/94
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In article <tom.maufer-...@stimpy.gsfc.nasa.gov>,

tom.m...@gsfc.nasa.gov (Thomas A. Maufer) wrote:

> In article <hedlund-12...@198.145.56.6>,
> hed...@teleport.com (M. Hedlund) wrote:
>
> > I've taken to replying -- including the whole posting -- with the line
> > "This doesn't belong in comp.infosystems.www" added to the bottom. Try it,
> > it's easy. Let's make a movement of it.
>

> Actually, since I got this message in virtually
> every newsgroup I read, I complained with an e-
> mail message consisting of a short complaint,
> then n copies of the note...one for each time I
> had to hit the D key. The e-mail message was
> about 45K. It felt good. Since he's done this
> before, I doubt it did any good, though. I like
> the idea of jamming their fax machine with
> complaints. :)

Go, team! Much more effecient than my method, and yet with equally good
results. A note of sobriety -- there's a problem with each of these
approaches. (1) It's easy to unplug a fax machine. Proposed solution:
send at night, when they aren't there to turn it off, and rates are lower
to boot. Hopefully they leave the thing on all night. (2) The sysadmin
who's caught the foul disease of these bastards is more likely to be
aggreived by an email deluge than the bastards are themselves. Discussion:
is it good to aggreive a sysadmin? No, we love sysadmins. It is important
to get the sysadmin's attention, but that accomplished, we should at least
give the sysadmin a chance to discipline the offending user. Proposed
solution: the sysadmin does not need to receive a billion copies of the
offending note -- one copy of its news referent will do in almost every
case (unless it is an emailed ad).

Maybe the way to go is to establish the standard that each reader offended
by a posted ad should respond *once* to that ad (so as to avoid charges --
legal or otherwise -- of harassment), as follows: (1) if the poster clearly
owns the site from which the article was posted (i.e., the AOL ad two weeks
ago), the response should go to the poster and can include a copy of the ad
so as to stuff the poster's inbox; (2) if the poster is a user at a pay-per
site, the response should go to {postmaster,usenet}@site.domain and include
a reference to the offending article. If (2) fails to induce a prompt
response, revert to (1). Comments?

Ah, grassroots action....

[<morality trip>All of this should be taken with a grain of salt. It is
all too easy to piss people off with the blunt object of Usenet, as "Green
Card" has so adequately demonstrated. This kind of mailbombing is a g o o
d idea when the poster is so flagrant, as in this case, posting a separate
message to each group & mailing list. It is a b a d idea when not first
considered and weighed against the damage done.</morality trip>]

<hed...@teleport.com>

Jim Jewett

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Apr 14, 1994, 2:47:08 AM4/14/94
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In article <2ogvoj$bt9$1...@garnet.msen.com>,

Steve Simmons <s...@garnet.msen.com> wrote:
>If you want to hit these guys where they hurt, complain to the state
>bar association. From the current response speed of indirect.com, their
>service provider is already paying the price.

And they're not even off the net -- finger cs...@netcom.com

(On the other hand, it has been hours since he got mail, so I
doubt he is getting the email responses. I don't know how many
friendly calls they'll get.)

-jJ

Jo Ann Malina

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Apr 14, 1994, 6:32:46 AM4/14/94
to
In article <2oegdl$a...@newshost.lanl.gov> kraw...@beta.lanl.gov (Frank L. Krawczyk) writes:
>In article <2odle8$4...@herald.indirect.com> ni...@indirect.com (Laurence Canter) writes:
>>Green Card Lottery 1994 May Be The Last One!
>>THE DEADLINE HAS BEEN ANNOUNCED.
>>
> [snip] (more info on green card lottery)
>>
>>For FREE information via Email, send request to
>^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^
>>cs...@indirect.com
>
>Watch out. These quite questionable lawyers not only bombed
>almost all newsgroup with this crap this week. They also tried
>to get into business over alt.visa.us for a while. And their
>FREE information includes a GENEROUS offer to send your
>lottery entry for you for ONLY s.th. in the order of $100.
>Since the lottery details are well documented you can do it
>yourself for 29 ct.

Would contacting the Arizona Bar Assn. do any good? They're sleazes
for flooding the net, but lying about "free" information goes beyond
netiquette into false advertising. Maybe an official letter from their
state bar harrumphing at them would get them to stop.

If that fails, what about getting their news feed cut off. It appears
from other posts here that indirect.com doesn't give a rats about their
behavior. Maybe their feed could suggest that they clean up their act?

I'm not usually a net.cop, but if every cheap hustler in America decides
to flood the internet with crap like this, the whole thing will die an
ugly death, to be replaced by a very expen$ive "information highway"
owned by more hustlers in more expensive suits.


*) *) *) *) *) *) *) *) *) *) *)!(* (* (* (* (* (* (* (* (* (* (* (* (*
Jo Ann Malina, Stanford Linear Accelerator Center
jo...@slac.stanford.edu -or- 415/926-2846
Neither Stanford nor the DOE would be caught dead with these opinions.
Nor do they consult me when formulating theirs.
-----------------------------------------------------------------------
The universe is made of stories, not atoms. --Muriel Rukeyser

Roderick M. Riensche

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Apr 14, 1994, 10:56:57 AM4/14/94
to
In article <Co8vy...@unixhub.slac.stanford.edu>,

Jo Ann Malina <jo...@ariadne.SLAC.Stanford.EDU> wrote:
>In article <2oegdl$a...@newshost.lanl.gov> kraw...@beta.lanl.gov (Frank L. Krawczyk) writes:
>>In article <2odle8$4...@herald.indirect.com> ni...@indirect.com (Laurence Canter) writes:
>>>Green Card Lottery 1994 May Be The Last One!
>>>THE DEADLINE HAS BEEN ANNOUNCED.
>>>
>> [snip] (more info on green card lottery)
>>>
>>>For FREE information via Email, send request to
>>^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^
>>>cs...@indirect.com
>>
>>Watch out. These quite questionable lawyers not only bombed
>>almost all newsgroup with this crap this week. They also tried
>>to get into business over alt.visa.us for a while. And their
>>FREE information includes a GENEROUS offer to send your
>>lottery entry for you for ONLY s.th. in the order of $100.
>>Since the lottery details are well documented you can do it
>>yourself for 29 ct.
>
>Would contacting the Arizona Bar Assn. do any good? They're sleazes
>for flooding the net, but lying about "free" information goes beyond
>netiquette into false advertising. Maybe an official letter from their
>state bar harrumphing at them would get them to stop.

The only problem is: You send them e-mail, they send you a FREE e-mail
explaining how to order their $100 information (or at least that's
usually the way these scams work.. Kind of like the *DRUG-LORD CAR
AUCTIONS* where you call a 1-800 number to get "information" and all it
tells you is how to order a [rather expensive] schedule of auctions.)

Ethical? No, not if you ask me. It's a scam.
Legal? Unfortunately, I believe it is.

Don't get me wrong. I am *DEFINITELY* not defending these losers.

>If that fails, what about getting their news feed cut off. It appears
>from other posts here that indirect.com doesn't give a rats about their
>behavior. Maybe their feed could suggest that they clean up their act?

WHAT?? Internet Direct is facing a potential $250,000 lawsuit for
disabling their accounts!! Check out gopher.indirect.com

>
>I'm not usually a net.cop, but if every cheap hustler in America decides
>to flood the internet with crap like this, the whole thing will die an
>ugly death, to be replaced by a very expen$ive "information highway"
>owned by more hustlers in more expensive suits.

Sad but true.
--
______________________________________________________________________________
-Roderick (Rick) M. Riensche | PO Box 5097 | o o
-Computer Technician/EE Student | Benton City WA | ----
-Soon-to-be-CEO :) | 99320 | Have a day.
----------------------<rien...@beta.tricity.wsu.edu>-------------------------

Jonathan Seitz

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Apr 14, 1994, 11:57:33 AM4/14/94
to
Jo Ann Malina (jo...@ariadne.SLAC.Stanford.EDU) wrote:
: Would contacting the Arizona Bar Assn. do any good? They're sleazes

: for flooding the net, but lying about "free" information goes beyond
: netiquette into false advertising. Maybe an official letter from their
: state bar harrumphing at them would get them to stop.
Gopher to gopher.indirect.com to get the address and other info.
Indirect really does care--they yanked the account, and are currently trying
to dig themselves out of a very deep /var. They also put up the
address/phone#/fax# for the place, if you want to express you feelings to
Dewey Cheatem and Howe directly.

Jonathan.
_____
jona...@raptor.sccs.swarthmore.edu
(aka jse...@cc.swarthmore.edu or ci...@cleveland.freenet.edu)
Do you seriously think there's anyone who would let *me* speak for them?
_____
Stay tuned for more of Marcel Marceau's new CD, "The Sound of Silence."

Rick Hough

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Apr 14, 1994, 1:01:02 PM4/14/94
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In article <rdippold.766184916@happy>, rdip...@qualcomm.com (Ron
"Asbestos" Dippold) wrote:

I hope that is really *their* FAX, and not some poor unsuspecting
soul who happened to piss them off!!!

****************************************************
* Rick Hough * email: rsh...@tasc.com *
* TASC * Phone: (617) 942-2000 *
* 55 Walkers Brook Drive * FAX: (617) 942-7100 *
* Reading, MA 01867 * *
****************************************************

Otto J. Makela

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Apr 14, 1994, 1:50:38 PM4/14/94
to
In article <Co5DM...@info.bris.ac.uk> ma...@irix.bris.ac.uk (SJ. Brewster) writes:
To satisfy my idle curiosity, could someone out there give a rough estimate
of how many groups Canter the Clown has separately posted this to? It's
appearing everywhere I look...

I count around 2300 copies of this article in my newsspool. The mind boggles.
--
/* * * Otto J. Makela <ot...@jyu.fi> * * * * * * * * * * * * * * * * * * */
/* Phone: +358 41 613 847, BBS: +358 41 211 562 (V.32bis/USR-HST,24h/d) */
/* Mail: Kauppak. 1B18/FIN-40100 Jyvaskyla/Finland, ICBM: 62.14N 25.44E */
/* * * Computers Rule 01001111 01001011 * * * * * * * * * * * * * * * * */

Martin Schafer

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Apr 14, 1994, 4:57:01 PM4/14/94
to

If you had done this within a few hours of the original posting I would
say more power to you. However, at this point, the people who are going
to pay to receive it already have, so your just creating more charges
for the cancel. Even at four Megs it's not a big enough percentage of
the daily news traffic to be worth the global cancel simply to free up
disc space.

It's too late, leave it alone.

Dave Hayes

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Apr 14, 1994, 5:02:10 PM4/14/94
to
[Please note followups]

jo...@ariadne.SLAC.Stanford.EDU (Jo Ann Malina) writes:
>I'm not usually a net.cop, but if every cheap hustler in America decides
>to flood the internet with crap like this, the whole thing will die an
>ugly death, to be replaced by a very expen$ive "information highway"
>owned by more hustlers in more expensive suits.

Don't you see?

If more people cry "restrictions" and "police", pretty soon the
"information highway" will just become another brainwashing tool for
those who think they know better than you and have the net.power to
back it up.

I've said it before, I'll say it again. Ignore this crap. Get on
with life. It's a beautiful day outside.
------
Dave Hayes - Institutional Network & Communications - JPL/NASA - Pasadena CA
da...@elxr.jpl.nasa.gov da...@jato.jpl.nasa.gov ...usc!elroy!dxh

What is it that makes a complete stranger dive into an icy river to
save a solid gold baby? Maybe we'll never know.

--
Dave Hayes - Institutional Network & Communications - JPL/NASA - Pasadena CA
da...@elxr.jpl.nasa.gov da...@jato.jpl.nasa.gov ...usc!elroy!dxh

The difference between a moral man and a man of honor is that the latter
regrets a discreditable act, even when it has worked and he has not been
caught.

Sameer Manek:SysOp

unread,
Apr 14, 1994, 5:55:56 PM4/14/94
to
j...@indirect.com (Jeffrey D. Wheelhouse) writes:

> Matt Messina (mes...@umich.edu) wrote:
> : I'd support a cancel if his administrators won't do it -- not because of th

> : content, but to help conserve the resources of those users who must pay to
> : read news (unlike me). Actually even those of us who get our news for "fre

> : pay for it -- another reason to support a cancelation.
>
> I would very much like to cancel the articles... I'm not sure how to do
> it efficiently for a situation like this. Anyone who can help me out will
> be a net.hero.
>
> Jeff
>

Jeff, I canceled as many copies as I could, atleast in the limited
number of newsgroups that I carry..about 100 off them.

My cancels were issued about 6-7 hours after the posts were made,
so they didn't reach the net in time to prevent too much damage.
plus canceling all 5000 posts must be hell.

BTW: Today's San Jose Mercury news as an artical on Canter & Siegal's
actions..if you need it for any pending trial or legal work, i'll
save it for ya. I've also sent a copy of it to the Arizona Bar.

---------------- Sameer Manek::SysOp of the BigBrother BBS -----------------
monitoring people's lives since George Orwell's 1984
Sea...@YesaNeXT.sbay.org "Starlight, starbright, wish I may, wish I
Sea...@YesaNeXT.TheTech.COM might, turn this PC into a NexT"
----------------------------------------------------------------------------

Dave Ratcliffe

unread,
Apr 14, 1994, 6:58:47 PM4/14/94
to
In article <tom.maufer-...@stimpy.gsfc.nasa.gov>, tom.m...@gsfc.nasa.gov (Thomas A. Maufer) writes:
- Actually, since I got this message in virtually
- every newsgroup I read, I complained with an e-
- mail message consisting of a short complaint,
- then n copies of the note...one for each time I
- had to hit the D key. The e-mail message was
- about 45K. It felt good.

Maybe you felt good but how do you think other users at indirect.com who
had NOTHING to do with that idiotic posting felt when their system was
brought to it's knees by the avalanche of oversized "spite" email?

--
Dave Ratcliffe vogon1!frackit!da...@cse.psu.edu
Harrisburg, Pa.

Kari E. Hurtta

unread,
Apr 15, 1994, 2:00:12 AM4/15/94
to
Darrell Fulmer <dwfu...@delphi.com> writes:
»J P Fitch <mas...@midge.bath.ac.uk> writes:
»>What has this to do with alt.sources?
»
»This "Green Card Lottery" lawyer seems to have posted to a large number
»of newsgroups. The post is in diverse places like rec.aquaria and
»sci.archaeology. I am new here, but isn't there something to be done with
»people who abuse the net like that?

Complain to address:
| Canter and Siegel, Immigration Attorneys
| PHONE: (602) 661-3911
| FAX: (602) 451-9717
|ADDRESS: 3333 E. Camelback Rd., Ste 250
| Phoenix, Arizona USA 85018

or better - sue them.
--
- Kari E. Hurtta / Elämä on monimutkaista
Kari....@Fmi.FI puh. (90) 1929 658

Matt Simmons

unread,
Apr 15, 1994, 2:05:23 AM4/15/94
to
Sameer Manek:SysOp (sea...@yesanext.sbay.org) wrote:
: BTW: Today's San Jose Mercury news as an artical on Canter & Siegal's

: actions..if you need it for any pending trial or legal work, i'll
: save it for ya. I've also sent a copy of it to the Arizona Bar.
Could you possible transcribe it and either post it or e-mail it to
interested parties (like me)?

Brett Glaysher

unread,
Apr 13, 1994, 1:25:04 PM4/13/94
to
In article <2oft7r...@srvr1.engin.umich.edu>, Matt Messina <mes...@umich.edu> writes:
|> The Law Firm of Canter, Siegel, Green, Fazio, Rhodes, & Thomas. ;-)

How about The Law Firm of Troll, Troll, Troll, & Sue ;-)

--
+----------------------------------------------------------------+
| Brett Glaysher | bre...@zed.com |
| Programmer/Analyst Club Zed | rn....@rose.com |
| | (UUCP) ...!uunet!aruba!brettg |
+----------------------------------------------------------------+

Dave Ratcliffe

unread,
Apr 16, 1994, 10:26:47 PM4/16/94
to
In article <Co8vy...@unixhub.SLAC.Stanford.EDU>, jo...@ariadne.SLAC.Stanford.EDU (Jo Ann Malina) writes:
- If that fails, what about getting their news feed cut off. It appears
- from other posts here that indirect.com doesn't give a rats about their
- behavior. Maybe their feed could suggest that they clean up their act?

I'm sorry? The offending (and offensive) lawyers were cut off from
access to indirect.com as soon as the SysAdmins were made aware of the
postings. I don't know what other postings you are reading from
indirect.com but I'll certainly question your reading skill son this
one.

- I'm not usually a net.cop, but if every cheap hustler in America decides
- to flood the internet

(sigh) Usenet, not Internet. They are NOT the same.

- with crap like this, the whole thing will die an
- ugly death,

ATTENTION! "Death Of The Net Predicted......"

- to be replaced by a very expen$ive "information highway"
- owned by more hustlers in more expensive suits.

If you think that's not coming anyway then you haven't been paying
attention.

Paul L Fagerburg

unread,
Apr 16, 1994, 11:32:19 PM4/16/94
to
vogon1!frackit!da...@cse.psu.edu (Dave Ratcliffe) writes:

[... stuff about a guy at NASA flooding the lawyers' site deleted]

>Maybe you felt good but how do you think other users at indirect.com who
>had NOTHING to do with that idiotic posting felt when their system was
>brought to it's knees by the avalanche of oversized "spite" email?

If indirect.com didn't want their system flooded, they shouldn't have
made 'spamming' available. My biggest concern about America Online
offering Internet access is that we're going to see a lot more of this
crap coming over the net.

indirect.com deserved what they got for allowing such an action to
happen on their system. They should have been explicitly clear on what
was allowed and what was not *before* giving people access.


--
-------------------------------- Paul Fagerburg (p...@bert.cs.byu.edu)

"Individuality is fine, as long as we all do it together."

Mark Kupferman

unread,
Apr 17, 1994, 1:15:16 PM4/17/94
to
In article <plf.76...@bert.cs.byu.edu>

p...@bert.cs.byu.edu (Paul L Fagerburg) writes:

> If indirect.com didn't want their system flooded, they shouldn't have
> made 'spamming' available. My biggest concern about America Online
> offering Internet access is that we're going to see a lot more of this
> crap coming over the net.

Now there's an interesting idea. Are you imagining that Indirect
has some kind of command on they're system where you just push
a button and you're message is sent to every newsgroup on the
net? Please. It is possible for just about anyone from any system
to do exactly what these lawyers did. Why, I imagine YOU could
even do it if you knew how. It really doesn't take ALL that much.

Unless, of course, you are advocating that users ought to all have
concrete menu based shells that prevent them from doing anything
other than posting one message to one group (after they have been
through two or three screens of warnings each time). We could also
prevent this from happening again by eliminating shell scripts and
programming languages.

Hey, but wait! That sounds an awful lot like the America Online
you are so concerned about!

_____________________________________________________________
Mark Kupferman cat...@minerva.cis.yale.edu
YSD/YRT

Ken Corbin

unread,
Apr 17, 1994, 5:56:57 PM4/17/94
to
Forwarded from comp.lang.c++
Thanks to wata...@asimov.cs.uiuc.edu (Larry Watanabe) for the info


Laurence Cantor's account at indirect.com has been disabled,
If you appreciate his Green Card posting you can express your gratitude
to
cs...@lcanter.win.net
cs...@netcom.com
cs...@lcanter.win.net
cs...@pipeline.com
cs...@msiegel.win.net
cs...@delphi.com

I am curious how much he can carry and how much he is paying for
LD connections...

Complaints can also be sent to the Tennessee Bar Association
(technically Board for Professional Responsibility) where Laurence Canter
is apparently registered. Their 800 number is overloaded
(1-800-486-5714), so they request that you send letters to

Board of Professional Response
1101 Kermit Dr.
Suite #730
Nashville TN 37217

Feel free to cross-post this to other newsgroups.

Peter da Silva

unread,
Apr 18, 1994, 9:26:35 AM4/18/94
to
In article <plf.76...@bert.cs.byu.edu>,

Paul L Fagerburg <p...@bert.cs.byu.edu> wrote:
> If indirect.com didn't want their system flooded, they shouldn't have
> made 'spamming' available.

How do you do that without locking people into a little BBS shell?
--
Peter da Silva `-_-'
Network Management Technology Incorporated 'U`
1601 Industrial Blvd. Sugar Land, TX 77478 USA
+1 713 274 5180 "Hast Du heute schon Deinen Wolf umarmt?"

Karen Rutherford

unread,
Apr 18, 1994, 5:48:18 PM4/18/94
to
In article <2olahc$q...@hera.fmi.fi> hur...@dionysos.fmi.fi

(Kari E. Hurtta) writes:
>Complain to address:
>| Canter and Siegel, Immigration Attorneys
>| PHONE: (602) 661-3911
>| FAX: (602) 451-9717
>|ADDRESS: 3333 E. Camelback Rd., Ste 250
>| Phoenix, Arizona USA 85018
>
>or better - sue them.
>--
>- Kari E. Hurtta / Elämä on monimutkaista
> Kari....@Fmi.FI puh. (90) 1929 658

By the way, has anyone notified the Justice Department (who
administers the INS) about the fraudulent claim that "having
an attorney increases your chances of winning the lottery" or
however they put it?? It is my understanding that having
an attorney has no effect at all on your chances. If you send
all the correct information, it is purely a lottery.

Just wondering.....

Karen Rutherford
frym...@u.washington.edu
- - - - - - - - - - - - - - - - - - - - - - - - - - - - - - -
"Fish can't wear glasses because they don't have ears."
(Belgian scientist who gave a goldfish a glass eye)

Dave Ratcliffe

unread,
Apr 23, 1994, 11:15:29 PM4/23/94
to
In article <plf.76...@bert.cs.byu.edu>, p...@bert.cs.byu.edu (Paul L Fagerburg) writes:
- vogon1!frackit!da...@cse.psu.edu (Dave Ratcliffe) writes:
-
- [... stuff about a guy at NASA flooding the lawyers' site deleted]
-
- >Maybe you felt good but how do you think other users at indirect.com who
- >had NOTHING to do with that idiotic posting felt when their system was
- >brought to it's knees by the avalanche of oversized "spite" email?
-
- If indirect.com didn't want their system flooded, they shouldn't have
- made 'spamming' available.

Please go right out this very minute and purchase a clue. ANY place that
allows posting can be used for "spamming" the net. They didn't "make it
available" any more than they specifically gave permission for it to be
done by Dewey, Cheatem & Howe. You proposed punishing the service
providers because one of their customers did a Bad Thing [tm]. I hope
nobody ever runs into your car in the parking lot of a 7-11. You'll
probably bomb their corporate offices.

- indirect.com deserved what they got for allowing such an action to
- happen on their system. They should have been explicitly clear on what
- was allowed and what was not *before* giving people access.

"7-11 deserves what they get for allowing someone to run into my car in
their parking lot" Yup, I can see it now.

Go get a cookie.

Francis A Uy

unread,
Apr 24, 1994, 8:55:53 AM4/24/94
to
Dave Ratcliffe <vogon1!frackit!da...@cse.psu.edu> wrote:
>p...@bert.cs.byu.edu (Paul L Fagerburg) writes:

>- If indirect.com didn't want their system flooded, they shouldn't have
>- made 'spamming' available.

>Please go right out this very minute and purchase a clue. ANY place that
>allows posting can be used for "spamming" the net. They didn't "make it

Dave, please explain to me how Freenet, Compu$erve, or other
menu driven systems are able to spam.

Your ordinary non-programmer end user doesn't need the ability
to execute shell commands. Their system shouldn't provide it.

-F
.

Karl_Kl...@charcoal.com

unread,
Apr 24, 1994, 10:28:07 AM4/24/94
to
fu...@umbc.edu writes:
Dave, please explain to me how Freenet, Compu$erve, or other
menu driven systems are able to spam.
Your ordinary non-programmer end user doesn't need the ability
to execute shell commands. Their system shouldn't provide it.

You don't need shell commands. All you need is a script capability.

Keep hitting the "post" menu item, and anyone anywhere can carpetbomb.

Adrian Tymes

unread,
Apr 24, 1994, 1:04:28 PM4/24/94
to
In <2pdq8p...@umbc9.umbc.edu> fu...@umbc.edu (Francis A Uy) writes:

>Dave Ratcliffe <vogon1!frackit!da...@cse.psu.edu> wrote:
>>p...@bert.cs.byu.edu (Paul L Fagerburg) writes:

>>- If indirect.com didn't want their system flooded, they shouldn't have
>>- made 'spamming' available.

>>Please go right out this very minute and purchase a clue. ANY place that
>>allows posting can be used for "spamming" the net. They didn't "make it

>Dave, please explain to me how Freenet, Compu$erve, or other
> menu driven systems are able to spam.

Shell scripts on whatever terminal the users use to interface the systems.
They would have to be re-written to manipulate the menus instead of command
line interfaces, but that shouldn't be too hard.
--
uwin...@mcl.mcl.ucsb.edu
Note: all opinions are the author's own...
so you *know* they're FUBAR...

Francis A Uy

unread,
Apr 25, 1994, 9:45:14 AM4/25/94
to
Adrian Tymes <uwin...@mcl.ucsb.edu> wrote:
>fu...@umbc.edu (Francis A Uy) writes:

>>Dave, please explain to me how Freenet, Compu$erve, or other
>> menu driven systems are able to spam.

>Shell scripts on whatever terminal the users use to interface the systems.
>They would have to be re-written to manipulate the menus instead of command
>line interfaces, but that shouldn't be too hard.

Let's do a quick analysis. Your ordinary system user is
on at most a 14.4kbaud modem, which translates to...
at most 1600cps, not including system delays, which are
very common on most open-access systems.

Even if the user writes a perfect script on their home
computer, they have to wait for each menu display to pop
up, they have to wait for the "opening editor" message
to scroll by, they have to wait for the posting gate
to accept their output, etc. The remote system and
the interface will slow you down tremendously.

On a menu-driven system, you can't possibly post more than ...
about one message per 10 seconds. OTOH, a shell-level script
on the actual system can spam at ... what, several messages
per second? We're talking about orders of magnitude here.

Also, the user has to write a much more complicated script,
because you can't just "read straight through the .newsrc
and send a copy to each". You have to download a copy of
the groups list to your end, handle it there and transmit
it all back to the system. etc.

The barriers to spamming are not absolute, but they do make
it much slower and harder, esp if you're paying for time.

-F
.

Ron Asbestos Dippold

unread,
Apr 25, 1994, 3:10:57 PM4/25/94
to
fu...@umbc.edu (Francis A Uy) writes:
>Dave, please explain to me how Freenet, Compu$erve, or other
> menu driven systems are able to spam.

I could write a Telemate or Livewire script in about 15 minutes
(possibly less, but debugging always takes more time then
allocated...). Dump all the group names to a file, then have the
script read one line at a time and fake the keystrokes necessary for a
post to that group. The scripting capabilities are built into the
local terminal program, so the system can't stop spamming by not
providing scripts itself.

--
Why government doesn't work - since output can't be measured, input has to be.

Ron Asbestos Dippold

unread,
Apr 25, 1994, 3:17:49 PM4/25/94
to
fu...@umbc.edu (Francis A Uy) writes:
>On a menu-driven system, you can't possibly post more than ...
> about one message per 10 seconds. OTOH, a shell-level script
> on the actual system can spam at ... what, several messages
> per second? We're talking about orders of magnitude here.

Hmmm, this is correct. I could start the script at midnight or so,
and have a good chance of making a heck of a lot of postings before
complaints got noticed. Still, at only 6 postings per minute they
wouldn't get them all - That's only 360 groups per hour. It'd be 10
hours to post to every group on a "typical" feed, and you'd have a
good chance of getting locked out before then.


>Also, the user has to write a much more complicated script,
> because you can't just "read straight through the .newsrc

It's really not that bad... once you've got it in a one-per-line
format, with the term programs I use it's just a case of doing one
open, then read a line into a string variable, then post. It's a loop
around the posting part and one read into a variable. Some example
script code - for no term program in particular, but I know several
that will let you do this:

open "groups"
do
read s
if status != 0 then break
/* script for posting here */
put s
/* rest of script */
while 1
close


>The barriers to spamming are not absolute, but they do make
> it much slower and harder, esp if you're paying for time.


True... however, since I and others are very willing to pay extra $$$
per month for the undeniable extra functionality of shell access, I
doubt it'll go away.
--
A cauliflower is nothing but cabbage with a college education. -- Mark Twain

Chris Owen

unread,
Apr 26, 1994, 5:34:03 AM4/26/94
to
In article <rdippold.767301469@happy> rdip...@qualcomm.com (Ron "Asbestos" Dippold) writes:
>fu...@umbc.edu (Francis A Uy) writes:
>>On a menu-driven system, you can't possibly post more than ...
>> about one message per 10 seconds. OTOH, a shell-level script
>> on the actual system can spam at ... what, several messages
>> per second? We're talking about orders of magnitude here.
>
>Hmmm, this is correct. I could start the script at midnight or so,
>and have a good chance of making a heck of a lot of postings before
>complaints got noticed. Still, at only 6 postings per minute they
>wouldn't get them all - That's only 360 groups per hour. It'd be 10
>hours to post to every group on a "typical" feed, and you'd have a
>good chance of getting locked out before then.

Hmm... C&S apparently took only 90 minutes to spam the 5,000 (or however
much it was) newsgroups. They must have had some good information about
how to do that - I'd bet that the average user has no idea about how to
write a spamming script. The question is, where did they get this information
from? I seem to remember reading that "some kid" was going through their
massive pile of messages, discarding the flames and keeping the requests for
information. Could it be that they got outside help? (Maybe that's where they
got the spamming idea from in the first place.) What is the "kid's" role in
all of this? Anyone care to speculate?

Sounds like a case for alt.conspiracy...

- Chris Owen


Leonard Erickson

unread,
Apr 25, 1994, 9:02:45 PM4/25/94
to

At least on Compuserve, it's not going to be at all hard. There
exist numerous programs that are intended to automate online sessions.
You generate messages offline, and it executes your script later. Dials
on and posts things at maximal speed.

And CIS themselves have a program with "batch" capability. It will store
the group list for you, and allow easy posting. On top of which, the file
format for the messages as stored on your system is well documented, so
you can write just *one* message and clone it with a very simple program.
Then just use the *built-in* script capabilities to tell CIS Nav to log on,
go to all the groups, and post the mail. In fact, though I haven't checked
I'm fairly sure that "post all waiting messages" is a standard feature!

I use an older version of the program, which doesn't have script capability.
But it operates at a speed much closer to your "shell script on system" than
your "one post per 10 seconds". I'd say it operates at 50-80% of the rate
you are connected at! And you can approach 100% by calling at times when the
load is low (after 1 am Pacific time).

--
Leonard Erickson leo...@qiclab.scn.rain.com
FIDO: 1:105/51 Leonard....@f51.n105.z1.fidonet.org (preferred)

Karl_Kl...@charcoal.com

unread,
Apr 26, 1994, 8:28:43 AM4/26/94
to
fu...@umbc.edu writes:
> On a menu-driven system, you can't possibly post more than ...
> about one message per 10 seconds.

Demonstrably false. I have exactly such a menu-driven system
available to me right here on my home system. I did some timing
tests.

I can generate approx 21 messages every 15 seconds.

The only critical thing was finding the proper point at which to wait.
I've found that I can do this by waiting only for the general command
menu to come up, where article composition is available. At that
point, shovel the whole sequence: select composition, send article
text, editor save-and-exit, newsgroup choice, subject, "post it." The
other prompts come and go, but my script doesn't wait for them; they
just scroll by. Just wait for another command menu to do it all over
again.

No sweat. Menu-driven systems can carpetbomb just fine.

Thomas Boutell

unread,
Apr 26, 1994, 5:39:31 PM4/26/94
to
In article <1994Apr26.0...@qiclab.scn.rain.com>,

Leonard Erickson <Leonard....@f51.n105.z1.fidonet.org> wrote:
>fu...@umbc.edu (Francis A Uy) writes:
>
>>Adrian Tymes <uwin...@mcl.ucsb.edu> wrote:
>>>fu...@umbc.edu (Francis A Uy) writes:
>
>>>>Dave, please explain to me how Freenet, Compu$erve, or other
>>>> menu driven systems are able to spam.

Ugh.

Listen, it's possible to inhibit spamming (ie, GREEN CARD!)
pretty effectively at your site.

Doing it by locking the user into a menu is NOT necessary.
Y'all are approaching the problem from the wrong side:

You can do it by altering your news-posting software to
record the times at which each user has posted that day, and
simply check to see if the user is spamming (ie, posting
at a very high frequency).

This type of system will Just Say No even to a user who is spamming using
macros on their end. The news-injection software simply refuses to post
that often from a single user. You can set the allowable frequency
to your taste to keep it from bugging legitimate users.
You can completely avoid rejecting posts per se by sleeping for n
seconds if they've posted too recently; in this case the policy isn't even
visible to non-violators of it.

A user can still "spam" in the sense that if they want to wait for
all their messages to go out at the allowed frequency, they
can, but the important distinction is that this will take
long enough to allow you to respond before you're buried
in irate email and birdbrained lawsuits!

If I were a site administrator, I would make such a patch pronto. Since
I'm not, I don't have any news software source code experience;
but it should be an easy hack to cnews. Anyone?

-T
--
"The creator of the universe works in mysterious ways. But he uses
a base ten counting system and likes round numbers." - Scott Adams
bou...@netcom.com, purveyor of fine HTML pages to the biology trade.
<a href="http://siva.cshl.org/boutell.html"><em>Thomas Boutell</em></A>

Al Black

unread,
Apr 26, 1994, 11:46:13 PM4/26/94
to

FYI
Most FreeNets do not allow shell access to their average user.
Information providers, system maintainers, and moderators *do* have shell
access, but they are not likely to spam.

Although the National Capital FreeNet and the Cleavland FreeNet are
usually in the top 10 sites of news contributors of articles, its pretty
rare that any on individual makes the the 25 Usenet contributors by number
or size of articles. The lack of shell access, limitation of use to a
single hour for each session, slow systems, funky news readers, and busy
phone lines, all work to limit the number of posts a user can do over
time.

cheers
al

Rich Skrenta

unread,
Apr 27, 1994, 11:27:29 AM4/27/94
to
bou...@netcom.com (Thomas Boutell) writes:

[description of anti-spamming code to see if the user has posted
too often, and introduce sleep delays if they are]

This is a really good idea. You'd probably want to also do something
about them trying to cram 100's of newsgroups onto the Newsgroups:
line. It shouldn't be hard to come up with automatic checks that flag
questionable posting behavior and 1) reject posts, 2) sleep for a long
time, or 3) forward the post to an administrator for approval before
it goes out.

--
Rich Skrenta <skr...@summit.novell.com>

Dave Ratcliffe

unread,
Apr 27, 1994, 5:44:17 PM4/27/94
to
In article <2pdq8p...@umbc9.umbc.edu>, fu...@umbc.edu (Francis A Uy) writes:
- Dave Ratcliffe <vogon1!frackit!da...@cse.psu.edu> wrote:

- >p...@bert.cs.byu.edu (Paul L Fagerburg) writes:
-
- >- If indirect.com didn't want their system flooded, they shouldn't have
- >- made 'spamming' available.
-
- >Please go right out this very minute and purchase a clue. ANY place that
- >allows posting can be used for "spamming" the net. They didn't "make it
-
- Dave, please explain to me how Freenet, Compu$erve, or other
- menu driven systems are able to spam.

I'll accept a partial correction in that respect. Menu driven systems
make it much more difficult, but I think it's still possible, using
crossposting and perseverance.

- Your ordinary non-programmer end user doesn't need the ability
- to execute shell commands. Their system shouldn't provide it.

But that doesn't mean it doesn't.

Bruce Stephens

unread,
Apr 28, 1994, 9:18:03 AM4/28/94
to

> bou...@netcom.com (Thomas Boutell) writes:

That'll work so long as all sites do it. My suspicion is that the
people we want to stop are quite capable of not updating their posting
software and avoiding this limitation.

What would work better is to find some notion of similarity of
articles which would junk articles that seem to be posted to more than
<n> groups. You could try this out for a while just as a local thing,
and once it looks safe, have the major routers apply it before passing
news around.

Even if you can't persuade anybody else to use it, you could, and
you'd never see any of these opportunities to MAKE MONEY FAST.
--
Bruce Institute of Advanced Scientific Computation
br...@liverpool.ac.uk University of Liverpool

Barry Brindisi

unread,
Apr 28, 1994, 8:44:24 PM4/28/94
to
Bruce Stephens (br...@liverpool.ac.uk) wrote:
[stuff deleted]

: What would work better is to find some notion of similarity of


: articles which would junk articles that seem to be posted to more than
: <n> groups. You could try this out for a while just as a local thing,
: and once it looks safe, have the major routers apply it before passing
: news around.

This is a good idea; however all an advertiser has to do is modify his or
her ads so that they DON't appear similar. The trick may be to get them
to MODIFY their ads to FIT the *APPROPRIATE* newgoup that the ad is to
appear in. While we may not be able to stop people from advertising in
the USENET; we can however affect the WAY they ADVERTISE.

: Even if you can't persuade anybody else to use it, you could, and


: you'd never see any of these opportunities to MAKE MONEY FAST.
: --
: Bruce Institute of Advanced Scientific Computation
: br...@liverpool.ac.uk University of Liverpool

Barry Brindisi
pha...@indirect.com

Bruce Stephens

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Apr 29, 1994, 8:06:59 AM4/29/94
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>>>>> On 29 Apr 1994 00:44:24 GMT, pha...@indirect.com (Barry Brindisi) said:

> Bruce Stephens (br...@liverpool.ac.uk) wrote:
> [stuff deleted]

> : What would work better is to find some notion of similarity of
> : articles which would junk articles that seem to be posted to more than
> : <n> groups. You could try this out for a while just as a local thing,
> : and once it looks safe, have the major routers apply it before passing
> : news around.

> This is a good idea; however all an advertiser has to do is modify his or
> her ads so that they DON't appear similar. The trick may be to get them
> to MODIFY their ads to FIT the *APPROPRIATE* newgoup that the ad is to
> appear in. While we may not be able to stop people from advertising in
> the USENET; we can however affect the WAY they ADVERTISE.

Yes, we can make it more difficult. I think that's the only thing we
can hope for, practically, unless we want to impose explicit costs on
posting.

A naive view of similarity of articles would regard articles as
similar if they contained the same text (give or take whitespace), and
had roughly equivalent headers. One could imagine more sophisticated
notions, but they might turn out to be too expensive.

Even a simplistic one would be useful; I'd use it, anyway.

HALLAM-BAKER Phillip

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Apr 30, 1994, 1:18:09 PM4/30/94
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If you want to kill messages from `overposters' the only proper way to do it
would be to put in filters at the main USEnet distribution points. It is not
a technological problem its a political one. Do people want censorship?


--
Phillip M. Hallam-Baker

Not Speaking for anyone else.

Peter da Silva

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May 1, 1994, 2:00:26 PM5/1/94
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In article <Cp31E...@news.cern.ch>,

HALLAM-BAKER Phillip <hal...@alws.cern.ch> wrote:
> If you want to kill messages from `overposters' the only proper way to do it
> would be to put in filters at the main USEnet distribution points. It is not
> a technological problem its a political one. Do people want censorship?

If the filters simply kill technically defective posts (such as duplicates)
it's not censorship.

John Stanley

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May 2, 1994, 6:16:54 PM5/2/94
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In article <id.854...@nmti.com>, Peter da Silva <pe...@nmti.com> wrote:
>If the filters simply kill technically defective posts (such as duplicates)
>it's not censorship.

It is not technically defective to post the same body to more than one
group. Please present an RFC quote that proves that it is, and I will
accept it. Until then, stop making the claim.

Tim Pierce

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May 2, 1994, 7:15:21 PM5/2/94
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In article <2q3u4m$g...@gaia.ucs.orst.edu>,
John Stanley <sta...@skyking.OCE.ORST.EDU> wrote:

What if he replaces "technically defective posts" with
"posts issued only because of technically defective news
software?"

--
____ Tim Pierce / Crazy isn't so bad. I could get
\ / twpi...@unix.amherst.edu / used to this.
\/ (BITnet: TWPIERCE@AMHERST) / -- Mary Campbell

HALLAM-BAKER Phillip

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May 2, 1994, 12:51:00 PM5/2/94
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In article <id.854...@nmti.com>, pe...@nmti.com (Peter da Silva) writes:

|>In article <Cp31E...@news.cern.ch>,
|>HALLAM-BAKER Phillip <hal...@alws.cern.ch> wrote:
|>> If you want to kill messages from `overposters' the only proper way to do it
|>> would be to put in filters at the main USEnet distribution points. It is not
|>> a technological problem its a political one. Do people want censorship?
|>
|>If the filters simply kill technically defective posts (such as duplicates)
|>it's not censorship.

The problem comes when a poster then sets us a daemon with a view to circumventing
the filter. Eg see zumabots latest tricks. The only solution then is to filter
out the entire site which is censorship.

I don't see much to complain about in a `maximum postings' rule. If they are being
generated by hand then a person cannot produce more than a certain ammount anyway.

John Stanley

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May 2, 1994, 8:32:48 PM5/2/94
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In article <2q41i9$4...@amhux3.amherst.edu>,

Tim Pierce <twpi...@unix.amherst.edu> wrote:
>What if he replaces "technically defective posts" with
>"posts issued only because of technically defective news
>software?"

Same difference. Produde a reference that says you must be able to
generate a newsgroups header with multiple groups. We all know you have
to be able to accept it, but that isn't the same.

Tim Pierce

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May 2, 1994, 10:41:01 PM5/2/94
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In article <2q463g$r...@gaia.ucs.orst.edu>,
John Stanley <sta...@skyking.OCE.ORST.EDU> wrote:

>In article <2q41i9$4...@amhux3.amherst.edu>,
>
>Tim Pierce <twpi...@unix.amherst.edu> wrote:
>>What if he replaces "technically defective posts" with
>>"posts issued only because of technically defective news
>>software?"
>
>Same difference. Produde a reference that says you must be able to
>generate a newsgroups header with multiple groups.

No dice. Peter's example was a machine that is
unintentionally spewing duplicate or old articles back onto
the net. In this case "technically defective" means "doing
something that it was not intended to," such as taking
articles already in the news stream and re-injecting mangled
copies of them. The original suggestion was for a software
change that would fix that after the fact. As for what
"technically defective" means, well, I knows it when I sees
it, bucko.

Now, I don't agree with the proposal for a variety of
reasons, but at least I can say that those reasons do not
include blind worship of RFCs. Whew.

Peter da Silva

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May 3, 1994, 1:23:59 PM5/3/94