2nd RFD: comp.object.corba.tao
Craig Rodrigues
unmoderated group comp.object.corba.tao
This is a formal Request For Discussion (RFD) to create
comp.object.corba.tao as an unmoderated world-wide Usenet newsgroup
dedicated to the discussion of The ACE ORB (TAO). This is not a Call
for Votes (CFV); you cannot vote at this time. Procedural details
appear below. All followup discussion should be crossposted to
news.groups.
CHANGE from previous RFD:
Name changed from comp.soft-sys.tao to comp.object.corba.tao.
Newsgroup line:
comp.object.corba.tao CORBA programming using The ACE ORB (TAO).
RATIONALE: comp.object.corba.tao
TAO (pronounced "dau") is a high performance Object Request Broker
(ORB) based upon the OMG (Object Management Group) CORBA (Common
Object Request Broker Architecture) standard. An Object Request
Broker is a middleware layer that allows clients to invoke methods on
distributed objects without concern for object location, programming
language, operating system platform, networking protocols, or
hardware. ORB technology abstracts away low-level details of
networking and systems programming, which helps application
developers to create more powerful and robust distributed
applications.
TAO is targeted at developers of a wide spectrum of systems, ranging
from high-performance, distributed real-time and embedded systems to
desktop and enterprise business systems. TAO has thousands of users
in academia and in industry, in such diverse domains as avionics,
telecommunications, medical imaging, and financial services.
TAO supports the C++ language mappings of the OMG CORBA standard.
You can get further information on TAO from the TAO home page
( http://www.cs.wustl.edu/~schmidt/TAO.html ) at Washington
University as well as Object Computing, Inc. (OCI)'s web site
( http://www.theaceorb.com ).
Currently, most of the discussion regarding TAO happens on the
<tao-...@cs.wustl.edu> mailing list which has approximately 550
subscribers. The mailing list receives approximately 20 to 30 e-mail
messages per day.
Much discussion of TAO also happens on comp.soft-sys.ace, a newsgroup
dedicated to general discussion regarding the Adaptive Communication
Environment (ACE). ACE is a C++ class library that implements many
useful patterns for the design of concurrent communication software.
ACE was originally developed at Washington University in St. Louis,
Missouri, U.S.A. TAO is written in C++ using the ACE class library.
E-mail from the tao-...@cs.wustl.edu mailing list is also gatewayed
to comp.soft-sys.ace. Comp.soft-sys.ace receives approximately 40 to
50 postings per day. Approximately 30-40 % of these postings are
related to TAO, the rest are related to ACE.
The postings on comp.soft-sys.ace regarding TAO are becoming distinctly
different from the postings regarding ACE. Postings related to ACE are
for the most part related to using the ACE C++ class library for writing
more portable and robust networking code.
The postings related to TAO are focusing more on using TAO as a CORBA
middleware platform for designing better distributed systems with high
performance and real-time characteristics.
Since the target audience for ACE is not necessarily interested in the
discussion involving TAO, this warrants a separate newsgroup forum
specifically devoted to TAO.
Due to the high level of e-mail traffic on the <tao-...@cs.wustl.edu>
e-mail list, many current and potential users of TAO would be better
served by a newsgroup format discussion.
CHARTER: comp.object.corba.tao
The comp.object.corba.tao newsgroup is formed for the discussion of the
following topic areas:
- TAO announcements (new kits, etc.)
- Questions about C++ CORBA programming using TAO
- Questions about how to use the CORBA services in TAO
- Source code problems, fixes, and modifications
- Possible extensions and additions to TAO
Posts which deal with particular platform or compiler issues that are
unrelated to one of the above topics are better made in a newsgroup
dealing specifically with the platform or compiler.
Posting of binary files is prohibited, with the exception of PGP
signatures and similar small binaries.
Infrequent posting of TAO-relevant commercial information is allowed.
The same posting may not be posted more often than monthly.
Posting of commercial information that is not strongly related to
TAO is prohibited.
END CHARTER.
PROCEDURE:
This is a request for discussion, not a call for votes. In this phase
of the process, any potential problems with the proposed newsgroups
should be raised and resolved. The discussion period will continue for
a minimum of 21 days (starting from when the first RFD for this
proposal is posted to news.announce.newgroups), after which a Call For
Votes (CFV) may be posted by a neutral vote taker if the discussion
warrants it. Please do not attempt to vote until this happens.
All discussion of this proposal should be posted to news.groups.
This RFD attempts to comply fully with the Usenet newsgroup creation
guidelines outlined in "How to Create a New Usenet Newsgroup" and "How
to Format and Submit a New Group Proposal". Please refer to these
documents (available in news.announce.newgroups) if you have any
questions about the process.
DISTRIBUTION:
This RFD has been posted to the following newsgroups:
news.announce.newgroups
news.groups
comp.lang.c++
comp.object.corba
comp.soft-sys.ace
Pointers will be posted to the following mailing lists:
ace-...@cs.wustl.edu (Discussion of ACE issues, porting, programs)
Subscribe via ace-user...@cs.wustl.edu
ace-an...@cs.wustl.edu (ACE announcements)
Subscribe via ace-announ...@cs.wustl.edu
tao-...@cs.wustl.edu (Discussion of TAO issues, porting, help)
Subscribe via tao-user...@cs.wustl.edu
tao-an...@cs.wustl.edu (TAO announcements)
Subscribe via tao-user...@cs.wustl.edu
Proponent: Craig Rodrigues <crod...@bbn.com>
Dan Kegel
> comp.object.corba.tao CORBA programming using The ACE ORB (TAO)....
>
> The postings on comp.soft-sys.ace regarding TAO are becoming distinctly
> The postings related to TAO are focusing more on using TAO as a CORBA
> middleware platform for designing better distributed systems with high
> performance and real-time characteristics.
>
> Since the target audience for ACE is not necessarily interested in the
> discussion involving TAO, this warrants a separate newsgroup forum
> specifically devoted to TAO.
Sounds good to me. I've been on tao-users, and it's really time
to move it to a newsgroup. The new name (comp.object.corba.tao)
is a good one.
- Dan
Neil Crellin
unmoderated group comp.object.corba.tao
This CFV is to be distributed only by the votetaker. It is not to be
posted to newsgroups, or mailed to mailing lists or individuals, except by
the votetaker. Ballots or CFVs provided by anyone else will be invalid.
Newsgroups line:
comp.object.corba.tao C++ CORBA programming using The ACE ORB (TAO).
Votes must be received by 23:59:59 UTC, 9 May 2002.
This vote is being conducted by a neutral third party. Questions
about the proposed group should be directed to the proponent.
Proponent: Craig Rodrigues <crod...@bbn.com>
Votetaker: Neil Crellin <ne...@wallaby.cc>
RATIONALE: comp.object.corba.tao
CHARTER: comp.object.corba.tao
END CHARTER.
IMPORTANT VOTING PROCEDURE NOTES: READ THIS BEFORE VOTING
The purpose of a Usenet vote is to determine the genuine interest in
reading the proposed newsgroup, and soliciting votes from uninterested
parties defeats this purpose. Do *not* distribute this CFV; instead,
direct people to the official CFV as posted to news.announce.newgroups.
Distributing specific voting instructions or pre-marked copies of
this CFV is considered vote fraud.
This is a public vote: All email addresses, names and votes will be
listed in the final RESULT post. The name used may be either a real
name or an established Usenet handle.
At most one vote is allowed per person or per account. Duplicate
votes will be resolved in favor of the most recent valid vote.
Voters must mail their ballots directly to the votetaker. Anonymous,
forwarded, or proxy votes are not valid, nor are votes mailed from
WWW/HTML/CGI forms (which should not exist). Votes from nonexistent
accounts or with munged, spam-blocked, or undeliverable addresses are
invalid and will NOT be counted.
Please direct any questions to the votetaker at <ne...@wallaby.cc>
HOW TO VOTE:
Extract the ballot from the CFV by deleting everything before and after
the "BEGINNING OF BALLOT" and "END OF BALLOT" lines. Don't worry about
the spacing of the columns or any quote characters (">") that your
reply inserts. Please, DO NOT send the entire CFV back to me!
Fill in the ballot as shown below. Please provide your real name
(or established Usenet handle) and indicate your desired vote in the
appropriate locations inside the ballot.
Examples of how to properly indicate your vote:
[ YES ] example.yes.vote
[ NO ] example.no.vote
[ ABSTAIN ] example.abstention
[ CANCEL ] example.cancellation
DO NOT modify, alter or delete any information in this ballot!
If you do, the voting software will probably reject your ballot.
When finished, MAIL the ballot to: < vot...@uvv.wallaby.cc >
Just "replying" to this message should work, but check the "To:" line.
If you do not receive an acknowledgment of your vote within three
days contact the votetaker about the problem. You are responsible
for reading your ack and making sure your vote is registered correctly.
If these instructions are unclear, please consult the Introduction to
Usenet Voting or the Usenet Voting FAQ at http://www.stanford.edu/~neilc/uvv.
======== BEGINNING OF BALLOT: Delete everything before this line =======
.-----------------------------------------------------------------------
| 1ST CALL FOR VOTES: comp.object.corba.tao
| Official Usenet Voting Ballot <COCT-0001> (Do not remove this line!)
|-----------------------------------------------------------------------
| Please provide your real name, or your vote may be rejected. Established
| Usenet handles are also acceptable. Place ONLY your name (ie. do NOT
| include your e-mail address or any other information; ONLY your name)
| after the colon on the following line:
Voter name:
| Insert YES, NO, ABSTAIN, or CANCEL inside the brackets for each
| newsgroup listed below (do not delete the newsgroup name):
Your Vote Newsgroup
--------- -----------------------------------------------------------
[ ] comp.object.corba.tao
======== END OF BALLOT: Delete everything after this line ==============
This CFV was created with uvpq 1.0 (Feb 6 1999).
PQ datestamp: 980322
--
Voting address: vot...@uvv.wallaby.cc
Jay Denebeim
discussion on this newsgroup. I was investigating it, seeing if
anyone supported the group and I found that the proponant has already
committed vote fraud before the paper was even cool on the CFV.
(sorry, this is from google, I don't know how to get the message-ID
and so on, I did a search on comp.object.corba.tao)
From: Craig Rodrigues (crod...@bbn.com)
Subject: [ace-users] [ne...@wallaby.cc: CFV: comp.object.corba.tao]
Newsgroups: comp.soft-sys.ace
Date: 2002-04-17 19:34:53 PST
Hi,
I think that the TAO user community has grown to the
point where it warrants the creation of a distinct newsgroup
comp.object.corba.tao dedicated to the discussion of
C++ CORBA programming using the TAO.
Please following the attached instructions and vote for this
proposal if you support it.
Thanks.
--
Craig Rodrigues Distributed Systems and Logistics, Office 6/304
crod...@bbn.com BBN Technologies, a Verizon company
(617) 873-4725 Cambridge, MA
----- Forwarded message from Neil Crellin <ne...@wallaby.cc> -----
Complete CFV follows.
I don't understand this. The CFV is already posted to this newsgroup.
Why did the proponant commit vote fraud by posting the CFV to a group
that already had one posted to it?
Jay
--
I'm looking for a job, for my resume please see:
http://www.deepthot.org:2001/denebeim.html
ba...@dmcom.net
>
> Cheryl mentioned that she didn't think there was much in the way of
> discussion on this newsgroup. I was investigating it, seeing if
> anyone supported the group and I found that the proponant has already
> committed vote fraud before the paper was even cool on the CFV.
>
> (sorry, this is from google, I don't know how to get the message-ID
> and so on, I did a search on comp.object.corba.tao)
Look at original format.
Message-ID: <2002041722...@bbn.com>
>
> I don't understand this. The CFV is already posted to this newsgroup.
> Why did the proponant commit vote fraud by posting the CFV to a group
> that already had one posted to it?
Well not sure it reaches fraud, the ballot was not maked. Certainly a
few rule violations. The peoponent apraently does not understand the
rules. Doing a few searchs, one of proponents name, indicates up to
about 500 posts made, most in comp.*
>
> Jay
--
news:alt.pagan FAQ at http://www.dmcom.net/bard/altpag.txt
news:alt.religion.wicca FAQ at http://www.dmcom.net/bard/arwfaq2.txt
news:news.groups FAQ at http://www.dmcom.net/bard/ngfaq.txt
ru.ig...@usask.ca
>Jay Denebeim wrote:
>> I don't understand this. The CFV is already posted to this newsgroup.
>> Why did the proponant commit vote fraud by posting the CFV to a group
>> that already had one posted to it?
>Well not sure it reaches fraud, the ballot was not maked. Certainly a
>few rule violations. The peoponent apraently does not understand the
>rules. Doing a few searchs, one of proponents name, indicates up to
>about 500 posts made, most in comp.*
Well, you might notice the words "vote for this proposal" in
the proponent's note:
> Please following the attached instructions and vote for this
> proposal if you support it.
(Geez, that IS as good as saying "Vote YES"... if he had at least
also written "or if you think it's a bad idea vote against it"
I wouldn't be quite against it)
and the instructions do say:
> Do *not* distribute this CFV;
and
> Distributing specific voting instructions ... is considered vote fraud.
Right now, I'd be willing to entertain the "bonehead" excuse until
convinced otherwise. On the otherhand if a judgement comes down
from the heavens saying "vote fraud, end of proposal", I wouldn't
protest either.
ru
--
My (updated) standard proposals rant:
Quality, usefulness, merit, or non-newsgroups popularity of a topic
is more or less irrelevant in creating a new Big-8 newsgroup.
Usenet popularity is the primary consideration.
Neil Crellin
unmoderated group comp.object.corba.tao
RATIONALE: comp.object.corba.tao
CHARTER: comp.object.corba.tao
END CHARTER.
HOW TO VOTE:
| 2ND CALL FOR VOTES: comp.object.corba.tao
| Official Usenet Voting Ballot <COCT-0002> (Do not remove this line!)
|-----------------------------------------------------------------------
| Please provide your real name, or your vote may be rejected. Established
| Usenet handles are also acceptable. Place ONLY your name (ie. do NOT
| include your e-mail address or any other information; ONLY your name)
| after the colon on the following line:
Voter name:
| Insert YES, NO, ABSTAIN, or CANCEL inside the brackets for each
| newsgroup listed below (do not delete the newsgroup name):
Your Vote Newsgroup
--------- -----------------------------------------------------------
[ ] comp.object.corba.tao
======== END OF BALLOT: Delete everything after this line ==============
comp.object.corba.tao Bounce List - Please contact me about your vote
-------------------------------------------------------------------------------
No bounced acknowledgments at this time
Neil Crellin
unmoderated group comp.object.corba.tao fails 101:9
There were 101 YES votes and 9 NO votes, for a total of 110 valid
votes. There were 2 abstentions.
For a group to pass, YES votes must be at least 2/3 of all valid
(YES and NO) votes. There must also be at least 100 more YES votes
than NO votes.
A five day discussion period follows this announcement. Unless
serious allegations of voting irregularities are raised, the group
may not be voted on again for six months.
Newsgroups line:
comp.object.corba.tao C++ CORBA programming using The ACE ORB (TAO).
The voting period closed at 23:59:59 UTC, 9 May 2002.
This vote was conducted by a neutral third party. Questions
RATIONALE: comp.object.corba.tao
CHARTER: comp.object.corba.tao
END CHARTER.
comp.object.corba.tao Final Voter list
NOTE: This is not [to be used as] a mailing list. The email addresses
are posted only to help verify the interest poll. Thank you.
Voted YES
------------------------------------------------------------------------------
e8607062 [at] student.tuwien.ac.at Wieland Gmeiner
cmeerw_vote [at] fastrun.at Christof Meerwald
Daniel.Bell [at] colorbus.com.au Daniel Bell
peter.mason [at] retriever.com.au Peter J. MASON
burley [at] tabq.com.au greg burley
toivo [at] ucs.uwa.edu.au Toivo Pedaste
vincent.englebert [at] info.fundp.ac.be Vincent ENGLEBERT
CChan [at] md.aacisd.com C Chan
keith.thornton.kt [at] germany.agfa.com Keith Thornton
coryan [at] atdesk.com Carlos O'Ryan
crodrigu [at] bbn.com Craig Rodrigues
mdecerbo [at] bbn.com Michael Decerbo
shespelt [at] bear.com Steve Hespelt
Greg.Hall [at] Australia.Boeing.com Greg Hall
srodrigues [at] dynalivery.com Sunil Bosco Rodrigues
julesd [at] erols.com Jules Dubois
ibuki [at] fedex.com Istvan Buki
smlucas [at] flashmail.com Steven Lucas
justin_michel [at] hotmail.com Justin Michel
EMalenfant [at] interstarinc.com =C9ric Malenfant
michi.henning [at] iona.com Michi Henning
dank [at] kegel.com Dan Kegel
chris [at] kohlhoff.com Christopher Kohlhoff
jim.melton [at] lmco.com Jim Melton
JamesL [at] Lugoj.com James Logajan
hurlerj [at] netlinctech.com Joe Hurler
stb [at] objectsciences.com Stephen T. Bachinsky
anthony_d [at] ociweb.com Richard Anthony
calabrese_p [at] ociweb.com Paul Calabrese
drury_h [at] ociweb.com Heather Drury
heifner_k [at] ociweb.com Kevin Heifner
mahesh [at] ociweb.com Mahesh Vedantam ( OCIWeb ).
martin_r [at] ociweb.com Robert Martin
mesnier_p [at] ociweb.com Phil Mesnier
phawley [at] ociweb.com Patrick Hawley
stanley [at] ociweb.com Kevin Stanley
totten_s [at] ociweb.com Steve Totten
trask_b [at] ociweb.com Bruce Trask
pblaer+usenet [at] panix.com Paul Blaer
phil [at] phil-britton.com Phil Britton
shuston [at] riverace.com Steve Huston
earthscibbs [at] rogers.com David Ramalho
mboriack [at] dctd.saic.com Mark L. Boriack
chafey [at] stentor.com Chris Hafey
winchester [at] telia.com Sebastian Palm
steve.vranyes [at] veritas.com Steve Vranyes
okellogg [at] freenet.de Oliver Kellogg
Werzinger.Lothar [at] krones.de Lothar Werzinger
w.buchert [at] medat.de Werner Buchert
ralph.rogge [at] online.de Ralph Rogge
Prashant.Jain [at] mchp.siemens.de Prashant Jain
Michael.Kircher [at] mchp.siemens.de Michael Kircher
Ansgar.Radermacher [at] mchp.siemens.de Ansgar Radermacher
Egon.Wuchner [at] mchp.siemens.de Egon Wuchner</FONT>
Gerhard_Voss [at] T-Online.de Gerhard Voss
Ekkehard [at] Uthke.de Ekkehard Uthke
bouvin [at] daimi.au.dk Niels Olof Bouvin
Tommy.Andreasen [at] Radiometer.dk </FONT>
sth [at] andrew.cmu.edu Steve Hayashi
rick [at] bcm.tmc.edu Richard Miller
ossama [at] doc.ece.uci.edu Ossama Othman
eeide [at] cs.utah.edu Eric Eide
gokhale [at] isis-server.vuse.vanderbilt.edu Aniruddha Gokhale
bala [at] cs.wustl.edu Balachandran Natarajan
irfan [at] cs.wustl.edu Irfan Pyarali
kitty [at] cs.wustl.edu Krishnakumar B
levine [at] cs.wustl.edu David L. Levine
mdeters [at] cs.wustl.edu Morgan Deters
nanbor [at] cs.wustl.edu Nanbor Wang
pradeep [at] cs.wustl.edu Pradeep Gore
schmidt [at] cs.wustl.edu Douglas C. Schmidt
venkita [at] cs.wustl.edu Venkita Subramonian
yamuna [at] cs.wustl.edu Yamuna Krishnamurthy
dsevilla [at] ditec.um.es Diego Sevilla Ruiz
janusz.szpilewski [at] vz.cit.alcatel.fr Janusz Szpilewski
benoit.viaud [at] artal.fr Benoit VIAUD
emarsden [at] laas.fr Eric Marsden
katehaki [at] ics.forth.gr Dimitrios G. Katehakis
ssfak [at] ics.forth.gr Stelios Sfakianakis
dfrost [at] maths.tcd.ie Dermot Frost
Humphrey.Clerx [at] eurocontrol.int Humphrey Clerx
s.doro [at] tecom.it Sandro Doro
cfrasch [at] spawar.navy.mil Charles Frasch
ldang [at] comcast.net Lam Dang
sylvain.cunzi [at] laposte.net Sylvain CUNZI
josecjacob [at] netscape.net Jacob Jose Cherackal
shrao [at] nyx.net Shrisha Rao
bhso [at] pacbell.net Bjorn Halvor Solberg
johnny.willemsen [at] meco.nl Johnny Willemsen
ian [at] vuurwerk.nl Ian van der Neut
sbfaulds [at] ihug.co.nz Stuart Brodie Faulds
simon [at] darkmere.gen.nz Simon Lyall
cbbrowne [at] acm.org Christopher Browne
jeffrey [at] carlyle.org Jeffrey Coleman Carlyle
dhinton [at] ieee.org Don Hinton
rcarter [at] pinyon.org Russell L. Carter
rkindred [at] swri.org Robert Kindred
ut [at] ulrich-teichert.org Ulrich Teichert
d.hanvey [at] qub.ac.uk DAVID HANVEY
mawdl [at] csv.warwick.ac.uk Jon Thomson
chriseb [at] ukshells.co.uk Chris Ebenezer
Voted NO
------------------------------------------------------------------------------
dgrisby [at] uk.research.att.com Duncan Grisby
stainles [at] bga.com Dwight Brown
mhatz [at] blackcat.com Mike Hatz
gprrspw [at] mindspring.com G.P. Ryan
wiz [at] verinet.com Wiz
john0 [at] zworg.com John .
dougbob [at] charter.net Doug O'Brien
mmontcha [at] OregonVOS.net Matthew Montchalin
zimnyzenon [at] interia.pl Zenobiusz Zimny
Abstained
------------------------------------------------------------------------------
pan [at] syix.com Pan
van.ette [at] inter.nl.net Robert-Jan van Ette
--
Neil Crellin, UVV <ne...@wallaby.cc>
James Logajan
> Apparently 25% of the interest is at just 3 sites. Perhaps they
> should setup servers which peer with each other and discuss this
> topic amongst themselves.
But 75% of those who voted came from other sites. And no one from a firm I
worked for had voted, yet they use TAO. That would have added maybe 10 more
YES votes had they bothered to vote. I also see only one of two co-authors
of a well known book on Corba voted. Based on what I _think_ I know of the
average Usenet awareness of the average TAO user (higher than average,
tending toward technical discussion groups rather than social) I'd hazard a
guess that apathy and oversight by many potential voters doomed this
proposal. This was close enough that another try in 6 months should result
in passage.
Craig Rodrigues
> I think the proper solution is to create a whole set of ORB specific
> groups in a single vote. That way, no one feels left out. I propose
> that in six months time (when the TAO group can be voted on again) we
As the proponent of the comp.object.corba.tao proposal,
I followed the procedures outline at the Usenet Volunteer
Votetakers (UVV) web site:
http://www.uvv.org
The UVV process is quite specific and very formal, and must
be adhered to, otherwise the UVV will not consider
a newsgroup creation proposal. I submitted two Requests For
Discussion (RFD's) and had to modify my proposal based on
feedback from the general community, and from the UVV.
It is not a trivial thing to write a proposal which is acceptable
to the UVV and general community, and then have a 2/3 majority
with 100 more yes votes than no votes, as per UVV rules.
For example, there was a failed
I did not see anything in the UVV guidelines which indicated
that an omnibus newsgroup proposal, which you described, was possible.
There are already a few CORBA newsgroups:
comp.object.corba
comp.lang.java.corba
I would be happy to vote for more CORBA related newsgroup proposals
for all the major ORB's. However, I don't have the energy to write
the proposals for each of those ORB's, and go through the whole
UVV process for each one, so representatives from those
user communities would have to do that.
I do intend to re-submit my proposal in 6 months, as per the
UVV rules, since the vote was very close to succeeding.
ba...@dmcom.net
>
> I did not see anything in the UVV guidelines which indicated
> that an omnibus newsgroup proposal, which you described, was possible.
It is possible to propose more then one group with a single RFD.
> I would be happy to vote for more CORBA related newsgroup proposals
> for all the major ORB's. However, I don't have the energy to write
> the proposals for each of those ORB's, and go through the whole
> UVV process for each one, so representatives from those
> user communities would have to do that.
One concern that might occur is that joining other name space to get Yes
votes for each single group might in the end result in many low traffic
groups. As for energy to write a proposal for more then one group,
perhaps you could enlist co-proponents to help writing the RFD and
supporting them.
>
> I do intend to re-submit my proposal in 6 months, as per the
> UVV rules, since the vote was very close to succeeding.
Close vote does indicate that the group might have passed, it does not
mean the group will be succesful. Many of close vote groups have not
done well at all. In 6 months it it certainly posible more people will
vote for the group.
>
> --
> Craig Rodrigues Distributed Systems and Logistics, Office 6/304
> crod...@bbn.com BBN Technologies, a Verizon company
> (617) 873-4725 Cambridge, MA
--