Your opinion is important, Agusti. Was: Me meto donde no me llaman (sobre soc.culture.charnego)

[Gurriato Gurriatez]

Agusti Roig wrote:

>
>
> El problema, Mario, es que los proponientes de soc.culture.charnego
> son
> (moralmente al menos) "Cervantina". Y los *charnegos* de verdad (no
> los
> residentes en los USA) o los catalanes no nacionalistas que escribimos
>
> en soc.culture.catalan no necesitamos ese nuevo foro para defender que
>
> el castellano es tan idioma *propio* de Cataluña como el catalan.

The Spanish spoken by Charnegos is not classic Castillian Spanish, but a
folck dialect reflecting the language of the poor segments of the
population of mostly Southern Spain with modifications of Catalan words.
Beign both languages of Latin origin, Spanish and Catalan can borrow
words quite easily from each other.

The same is true for the "Kamacu" Catalan dialect of Barcelona. Among
Charnegos, as among other ethnic groups, acculturation is not a simple
one-way process. The larger society in Catalonia has adopted many
Charnego features, not only such practical things as "tortilla de
patatas" , but such other cultural features as Flamenco music and
Spanish names.

And I would appreciate your taking my interest in Catalonia and the
Charnego people more seriously. I am not a foreign dilettante. Probably
you are already aware that I have I relatively good command of
Catalonian language, a reflection of the time expent there.

It is worth mentioning the origin of somme of the main opponents to
soc.culture.charnego:

Jaume Canaves is from the Balearic Islands, and Maracas is a Valencian
living in the Valencian Community. I would think that their rights to
give an opinion on the Charnego problem are approximatelly as
legitimate as mine.

> Es de-
> cir, que ¿para quien es ese foro? Pues no es improbable que acabe
> siendo
> un sitio de reunion de: (1) mensajes de soc.culture.spain
> crossposteados
> ahi por defecto, (2) los tres proponientes y algun *charnego* mas
> resi-
> dente en Miami junto con todo ultraderechista que quiera juntarseles a
>
> la vista del titulo. Con todo ello, no se que de bueno va a aportar a
> la
> discusion y defensa (necesaria) de los derechos de los
> castellanoparlan-
> tes de Cataluña.

The reason why tre group is needed is as follows:

For many years, Charnegos were both socially and politically
"invisible". Working and living in the isolated and separate world of
the urban barrios, Charnegos had little impact on the political system
or on the life of the larger community. Because of their predominantly
blue collar background, the low militancy in main political parties,
lack of participation in politics (and those who did seldom voted),
political leaders paid little attention to them.

This is beginning to change. Charnegos are taking asn increasingly
active role in public life. Nowdaya thios take place mostly at the
grass-roots level. Forums like the Internet have become essential for
thir struggle to maintain their cultural roots.

There is an increasing interest for Charnego cultural manifestations.
Charnego Flamenco music is flourishing. Some of the best witers of the
Catalonia of today are Charnego. After the struggles of the first and
second generation have produced enough acculturation and affluence for
the third generation to afford nostalgia for a vanishing ethnic culture,
the younger members of the third generation especially may become
fiercely concerned about a language they are notr allowed to use in the
Schools, custums they have never followed, and and identity they never
had.

I can give you the example of Antonio Ortiz (Hey, Floriopondio, how
you're doing), now an expert in Flamenco music, while people of his age
in Andalucia couldn't care less about anything other than American
Pop-music.

All this issues can be addressed in a forum like soc.culture.charnego.
You guys are concerned about issues which are of no interest to us (
like your obsessions with the Occitan language and the city of Alguer).
We can have the best of two worlds in two specialized forums. Let's
increase the menu so that everybody would enjoy their intellectual
meals.
Sincerely

EL COJO MANTECAS

[Gurriato Gurriatez]

Russ Allbery wrote:

> In news.groups, Gurriato Gurriatez <eso...@unmc.edu> writes:
>
> > The reason why tre group is needed is as follows:
>
> > For many years, Charnegos were both socially and politically
> > "invisible". Working and living in the isolated and separate world
> of
> > the urban barrios, Charnegos had little impact on the political
> system
> > or on the life of the larger community. Because of their
> predominantly
> > blue collar background, the low militancy in main political parties,
>
> > lack of participation in politics (and those who did seldom voted),
> > political leaders paid little attention to them.
>

> Axiom #1: The Usenet is not the real world. The Usenet
> usually
> does not even resemble the real world.
> Corollary #1: Attempts to change the real world by altering
> the
> structure of the Usenet is an attempt to work sympathetic magic --
> electronic voodoo.
> -- Gene Spafford
>
> Usenet newsgroups shouldn't be created in an attempt to address
> real-world
> problems; they should rather be created when there is a demonstrated
> need
> for them and a sufficient quantity of interest in discussing a topic
> that
> the currently existing newsgroups are not sufficient.
>

You are absolutely right.Axiom # 2 : Numbers speak loud and clear.Tell
us how many interested people you need.
We will aks interested people to send a note of support to the creation
of soc.culture.charnego
and a statement of intention to participate in it.
Let's not speculate, but count.

Corollary #2; The opposition to the creation of the group would not be
so strong if there would be a prediction of lack of interest in it

The grouo will be polemic perhaps, boring and lacking interest, no way.
You don't have the slight idea how passionately this matter is beind
discussed in Spain nowadays.

Sincerely

EMILIO SORIA

> --
> Russ Allbery (r...@stanford.edu)
> <URL:http://www.eyrie.org/~eagle/>

[Gurriato Gurriatez]

Russ Allbery wrote:

> In news.groups, Gurriato Gurriatez <eso...@unmc.edu> writes:
>

> > You are absolutely right. Axiom # 2 : Numbers speak loud and clear.
>
> No, actually, that's not axiom #2.
>
> > Tell us how many interested people you need. We will aks interested

>
> > people to send a note of support to the creation of
> soc.culture.charnego
>

> Uh-huh. Tell us how many interested people you need and we'll
> manufacture
> that number. No. The measure is of existing traffic, the existing
> traffic is crossposted political flamewars, not cultural discussion,
> and
> there isn't existing traffic support for this newsgroup as proposed.

Explain that to me:

To exist you need pre existing traffic
To get traffic you need to be existing already

The group is not in the stage of discussing issues such as the latest
Flamenco singer in Catalonia or the last novel of Vasquez Montalban as
we want to do. We have expent two weeks trying to contrarrest the
bombardement and boycott by people such as Artur Sixto, who has flooded
the thread with ad hominem falacies and defamations of character

The matter of fact is that the Net has given a forum to a Catalonian
community of 3 million people (soc.culture.catalan) but denies a
simmilar forum to a Catalonian community, also 3 million strong, just
because is a Spanish speaking one, and because has found a strong
opposition of a few far right nationalists who have rarefied the
atmosphere with their slanders.

I consider this mere discrimination and prejudice against this
community.

Mr. Sixto knew perfectly well that, to bycott the project, he only had
to produce some confussion with a smoke curtain of quarrelsome articles
to give an impression of dessarray and flame war. There is always
someone falling for that. This agenda has been made clear in the
sarcasms of Mr Jaume Canaves in some of his articles in Spanish.

Anyway, I am aware that you have to take your decisions based in scanty
evidence, and pressed by different social pressures.. I imagine it is
difficult for a non Spanish and Catalan speaking person to extricate
himself in this complex cultural and linguistic situation of an alien
culture. Only the Internet users fluent or semifluent in English had had
a chance to participate in this traffic of conversations. The relevance
of the postings in English for the last two weeks in this forum to the
postings related to the Charnegos posted in Spanish in their own forum
do not appear quite clear to me. Anyway, it will be a great
dissapointment to many people who were waiting for this forum to
interchange ideas and debate issues of their interest (not of the
interest of Mr. Sixto)

I do not perceive that the amount or quality of taffic in a possible
soc.culture.charnego was goring to be much different than the ones found
in soc.culture.catalan or similar forums.

>
>
> > Corollary #2; The opposition to the creation of the group would not
> be
> > so strong if there would be a prediction of lack of interest in it
>

> Be nice if you'd stop making up rules as you go along; there actually
> is a
> corollary #2 and it isn't that either. Furthermore, this also doesn't
>
> make any sense.
>

I wasn't trying to make rules, Mr. Allbery. I was trying to make
conversation

Sincerely

EMILIO SORIA

[Information Security]

Gurriato Gurriatez <eso...@unmc.edu> wrote:
: Russ Allbery wrote:

: > In news.groups, Gurriato Gurriatez <eso...@unmc.edu> writes:
: >
: > > You are absolutely right. Axiom # 2 : Numbers speak loud and clear.
: >
: > No, actually, that's not axiom #2.
: >
: > > Tell us how many interested people you need. We will aks interested
: >
: > > people to send a note of support to the creation of
: > soc.culture.charnego
: >
: > Uh-huh. Tell us how many interested people you need and we'll
: > manufacture
: > that number. No. The measure is of existing traffic, the existing
: > traffic is crossposted political flamewars, not cultural discussion,
: > and
: > there isn't existing traffic support for this newsgroup as proposed.

: Explain that to me:

: To exist you need pre existing traffic
: To get traffic you need to be existing already

Ignore Russ.

He's on the steering committee of UCENET II (www.usenet2.org), a
vulture hierarchy that is duplicating perfectly good Usenet groups
in order to steal people from them. (see its list of groups that
it is duplicating)

Do whatever you think is best.

Russ no longer knows what he is doing.
---guy

Spam this: pe...@baileynm.com

[Gurriato Gurriatez]

antonio ortiz wrote:

> Gurriato Gurriatez wrote:
>
> >I can give you the example of Antonio Ortiz (Hey, Floriopondio, how
> >you're doing), now an expert in Flamenco music, while people of his
> >age in Andalucia couldn't care less about anything other than
> American
> >Pop-music.
>

> Muchas gracias por este comentario tuyo sobre mi pero como ya he dicho
>
> en anteriores ocasiones no soy partidario de la creacion de
> soc.culture.charnego. Cuando llegue el momento votare negativamente
> (con
> todo el valor que de un voto personal en la resolucion de este asunto)
>
> por estas razones:

Aclaro este punto. Creo que eres un experto en flamenco-pop. Rumbitas y
chorradas fusioneras- bakalaisticas. Me parece muy bien, pues eso es lo
que cantan los charnegos en tu tierra

De cante grande no tienes ni la mas reputisima idea. Tambien me parece
muy bien, pues eso es lo que cantan los gitanos en la mia. Es una
musica de dificil comprension a los no iniciados. Al cante muchos son
los llamados y pocos los escogidos.

> - Los "charnegos" son tan catalanes como los catalanoparlantes y por
> lo
> tanto su cultura, su idioma y su musica tienen cabida en el newsgroup
> soc.culture.catalan. Y en este punto estoy en desacuerdo con los
> catalanoparlantes que puedan estar en contra.
>

Artur, con cierta razon, llamo la atencion al hecho de que el grupo se
llama soc.culture.CATALAN, refiriendose al idioma, no al pais.Si asi
fuera deberia haberse llamado soc.culture.CATALUNYA.
Tambien expreso la opinion de que la mayoria del trafico tendria que ser
en catalan, con la tolerancia de algun articulo ocasional en castellano.
Por ese motivo expulso a la gente del grupo a la que no consideraba
linguistica o idelogicamente deseable en el grupo. Los demas le habeis
seguido la corriente y me parece la mar de bien que haya un grupo
dedicado a hablar en una lengua determinada que aparece en su titulo.
Lo que no me parece nada bien es el bloqueo de crear otro grupo para la
gente de Cataluña de habla castellana.

> - La creacion de S.C.CH. provocaria una division innecesaria de los
> integrantes Interneros de las dos comunidades y favoreceria las
> pretensiones de esos "malvados enemigos polakos" que dices que quieren
>
> erradicar la lengua y cultura castellanas en soc.culture.catalan
>

Tu pareces ser el unico que no esta al tanto del proyecto de
erradicacion del castellano mediante el metodo de cambiar la lengua
materna de los niños antes de que tengan uso de razon.

Jaume Canaves en mas de una ocasion nos ha restregado este asunto por
los güevos con bastante pitorreo. La fecha que dio de plazo me para
completar el proceso creo que eran 25 años. La expresion empleada fue:
"teneis que pasar por el tubo, os guste o no os guste". Y añadio que "os
tendreis que joder, pues no podreis hacer otra cosa mas que cojeros
rabietas".

El resto del polakerio esta perfectamente al tanto de este asunto. Sin
embargo no quieren que el asunto trascienda mas de lo necesario, para
que el proceso se pueda completar sin escandalos y sin demasiadas
protestas. Esto es lo que indujo a Tontoliu a mentir como un bellaco (
en un ingles todavia mas macarronico que el mio) y decir en publico que
llevo a sus hijas a la escuela publica en Cataluña y le ofrecieron el
menu: "En que lengua quiere que eduquemos a sus nenas, Sr. Tontoliu, en
catalan o en castellano?" . Si esta matraca de la inmersion no os
pareciera una cosa vergonzosa no andaria Tontoliu mintiendo en publico
con tanta desfachatez para ocultarlo.

> - Hay que defender la catalanidad de la cultura de los "charnegos"
> catalanes en foros comunes junto a la poblacion catalanoparlante.
> soc.culture.catalan y soc.culture.charnego serian ghettos con esta
> particion...
>
> - La inmersion linguistica se realiza para salvar el idioma catalan y
> para favorecer el bilinguismo de todos los alumnos.

No hay ningun derecho a cancelar los derechos de las personas para
darselos a las lenguas que son entidades abstractas. El derecho de los
niños esta por encima de tanta pamplina. Los chiquillos salen de la
escuela sin saber hacer la o con un canuto y con un conocimiento
precario de su idioma. Pronto estaran diciendo cosas tales como lo de
"esta reinando en el rufo" (esta lloviendo en el techo), como algunos
hispanos del ghetto.

Nadie le esta negando a los catalanes el derecho a usar su lengua en
todas las manifestaciones de la vida diaria. Yo, en particular, no les
niego el derecho a la autodeterminacion, a la independencia o a lo que
les salga de las pelotas votar que se haga con su pais. Me parece que
el Cagafierros and Co tiene perfecto derecho a pedir la independencia si
le sale de las pelotas. Todas estas actividades son plenamente legitimas
y deben someterse al proceso democratico.

Lo que no esta bien es que se cancelen los derechos linguisticos de una
comunidad de 3 millones de personas. Eso esta en contra de la Carta de
los Derechos Humanos y es un injusticia. Que alguien intente preservar
el idioma Apache o el de los indios Miskitos (pongo por ejemplo. No
tengo nada en contra de esa gente) me parece feten. Lo que no me
pareceria feten es que cogieran a mis niños y los escolarizaran en
lengua miskita por cojones y en contra de mis deseos. En el mundo hay
miles de idiomas, el la India hay mas de 500, y el intentar preservarlos
no es ninguna razon para desposeer a la gente de sus derechos.

Mira el caso que hacen los franchutes a la langue-d'oc, occitano o como
querais llamarlo. En todo el pais hay menos de dos mil niños que esten
tomando unas clases de un par de horitas a la semana. Sin embargo ahi
tienes al polakerio es un continuo extasis occitano. Y lo de Alguer ya
esta tomando un cariz surrealista.El que cuatro viejas chapurrearan algo
de catalan en un pueblo sardo hace medio siglo al parecer tiene una
importancia cosmica. El que una comunidad de tres millones de personas
quiera que a sus hijos se les eduque en su idioma, idioma que es tambien
el de otros trescientos millones de personas, al parecer no tiene
importancia alguna.

Lo mismo digo de la religion. Hay religiones que se estan extinguiendo
por falta de fieles, y no por eso habria que tolerar la inmersion
religiosa de ningun niño en contra de la voluntad de los padres.

Como eres medio simple a lo mejor te has creido que no hay un gran
numero de charnegos que estan que trinan con lo de la inmersion de los
cojones. Mira lo que paso con lo de la Feria de Abril, las broncas que
tienen los pancas con las casas regionales y demas incidentes. Todavia
no hay ningun partido que acoja el amparo de la charnegada en su
plataforma ideologica, y son esas organizaciones las que estan llevando
la lucha a nivel de "grass-roots".
La gente no ha pedido la pseudoeducacion bilingüe, porque es un camelo
y una crueldad estigmatizadora contra el niño en las escuela. Ningun
padre en su sano juicio pondria a su hijo a que sufra ese calvario de
ridiculo y vergüenza. Eso les permite a los pancas afirmar que el 100%
de la poblacion esta encantadisima con el proceso.

> Se busca una
> comprension del 50% tanto en catalan y castellano. Si realmente fuera
> para exterminar el castellano estaria en desacuerdo con la inmersion y
>
> cuando el catalan esté a salvo será innecesaria la exclusividad de la
> enseñanza en catalán.

El unico que te crees que la immersion esta planeado como algo temporero
y que se cancelara en el futuro, eres tu. Bueno, quiza no: Agusti Roig
tambien se lo cree. Agusti se lo cree porque es una buena persona. Tu te
lo crees porque eres tonto del bote, que no hay que confundir la bondad
con la memez (perdona, chico, pero asi es como pienso)

La immersion solo se cancelaran si los charnegos luchan por ello. Los
partidos nacionales no van a ahcer nada por los charnegos (mira lo que
el PP hizo con el Aleix por defenderlos)

>
>
> - En todas partes cuecen habas. Habran "polakos" intransigentes pero
> yo
> muestro mi disconformidad respecto a sus opiniones y propuestas. igual
>
> como hay "espanyolistas" o "charnegos" tolerantes o intransigentes...
> No
> hay que satanizar el bando contrario.

Hostias con la satanizacion! Tu has visto como ha presentado el
polakerio en news.groups a los proponentes de soc.culture.charnego?.
Endeluego, Floripondio, hay veces que pienso que ademas de ser tonto es
que eres tontaina y ademas tonto del haba y de la pandereta. Y ademas de
la clase de los tontos utiles que van por el mundo de ordenanzas,
limpiandole las botas al señorito. y lo haces si malicia alguna, porque
estas muy predispuesto a creerte paparruchas oficiales que se dan por la
tele para consumo de panfilos.

EL COJO MANTECAS

[t.r.mcloughlin]

Information Security wrote:
> Gurriato Gurriatez <eso...@unmc.edu> wrote:

> : Explain that to me:
>
> : To exist you need pre existing traffic
> : To get traffic you need to be existing already
>
> Ignore Russ.
>
> He's on the steering committee of UCENET II (www.usenet2.org), a
> vulture hierarchy that is duplicating perfectly good Usenet groups
> in order to steal people from them. (see its list of groups that
> it is duplicating)

Close, but not quite right. Usenet II is designed to steal
the *souls* of people from perfectly good Usenet groups, not
the people themselves.

It's a very creative (but immoral) design: an "active site" is
created when the the unsuspecting poster sends *what appears* to
be a post to UII, and then when he *reads* it, his soul is captured
and suspended in psion inference field. The devious part is that
the victim can not tell his soul is under UII control until
he attempts to use it. That can be anywhere from a few weeks to
years for most usenet posters. And by then, the soul has already
been smuggled out of the country or sold to AOL.

trm

[Jaume M. Canaves]

[multiple crossposting removed]

On Tue, 11 Nov 1997, Gurriato Gurriatez wrote:

> Artur, con cierta razon, llamo la atencion al hecho de que el grupo se
> llama soc.culture.CATALAN, refiriendose al idioma, no al pais.

Catalan CULTURE, my dear Dr Soria. Catalan Culture, and that includes the
culture of Catalan-speakers, Spanish-speakers, gypsies (like Peret and
others), etc.

Of course the group does not refer to the Country!. The purpose of the
group was creating a group for people living in countries with a common
Catalan heritage, that is people living in areas in Spain, Italy, France,
and Andorra, not restricted to Catalonia.

> Si asi fuera deberia haberse llamado soc.culture.CATALUNYA.

The reason for the name is clearly exposed before.

Mr. Soria, why don't you put your shit together and focus on the real
issue: the RATIONALE for the creation of soc.culture.charnego.
Soc.culture.catalan is working well, and you can address your concerns
about the health of the group anywhere else. Don't you think so?

> Tambien expreso la opinion de que la mayoria del trafico tendria que ser
> en catalan, con la tolerancia de algun articulo ocasional en castellano.

Well, that was the opinion of a person in a given moment. On the other
hand Agusti Roig and most of posters have expressed in numerous occasions
that messages in Spanish are welcome. Perhaps 1/3 or more of my messages
in soc.culture.catalan are in Spanish!.

> Por ese motivo expulso a la gente del grupo a la que no consideraba
> linguistica o idelogicamente deseable en el grupo.

And you are so naive that when somebody tell you to leave a group because
of your trolling, you do it... I guess that if in any flame war everybody
was reacting like you, the group would be empty in two weeks.

Anyway, as clearly exposed in your messages in the thread 'ROBOTITOS A MI'
and other threads you decided to abandon soc.culture.catalan because of
the proposed moderation of the group, and most of people told you that if
you wanted to self-exclude you from the group it was your decision but
your posts were welcome if they were not crossposted to tons of irrelevant
groups.

> Los demas le habeis seguido la corriente y me parece la mar de bien que
> haya un grupo dedicado a hablar en una lengua determinada que aparece en
> su titulo.

Soc.culture.catalan is not for Catalan language. The charter states
clearly that it is a group about the Catalan language and the Catalan
people in Catalan, Spanish, Occitan, French, English or Italian.

> Lo que no me parece nada bien es el bloqueo de crear otro grupo para la
> gente de Cataluña de habla castellana.

The problems about the creation of the grup in the current terms of the
proposal is what we are discusing now. If you want to discus the RFD,
fine. If you don't want to, and you are just going to keep on repeating
your mantras and whining about boycotts, racism, discrimination and other
bullshit... you are going to end up killing all of us of an accute
meningitis.

[snip... plenty of snipping...]

> Lo que no esta bien es que se cancelen los derechos linguisticos de una
> comunidad de 3 millones de personas. Eso esta en contra de la Carta de
> los Derechos Humanos y es un injusticia. Que alguien intente preservar
> el idioma Apache o el de los indios Miskitos (pongo por ejemplo. No
> tengo nada en contra de esa gente) me parece feten. Lo que no me
> pareceria feten es que cogieran a mis niños y los escolarizaran en
> lengua miskita por cojones y en contra de mis deseos. En el mundo hay
> miles de idiomas, el la India hay mas de 500, y el intentar preservarlos
> no es ninguna razon para desposeer a la gente de sus derechos.

Are there 3 milion 'charnegos' and 500 milions indians in Usenet? Wow!
That IS impressive... Dr. Soria, perhaps those issues are important on
your cloud but they are irrelevant in the discusion of the proposal.

[about 70 lines of stuff already repeated in a number of posts deleted]

Salut,

Jaume

---------------------------------------------------------------------------
Jaume M. Canaves i Vives ICQ#4740306 "Life is a ___
UCSD - Biology (0366) /_\ Y sexually transmitted (0,0)
9500 Gilman Dr. 7 // \\ ( ) 100% lethal < . >
La Jolla, California 92093 \\_// \\_// disease" --"-"--
---------------------------------------------------------------------------

[Jaume M. Canaves]

On Tue, 11 Nov 1997, t.r.mcloughlin wrote:

> It's a very creative (but immoral) design: an "active site" is
> created when the the unsuspecting poster sends *what appears* to
> be a post to UII, and then when he *reads* it, his soul is captured
> and suspended in psion inference field.

The capture happens before or after the abduction in black
helicopters? Are the bodies kepts in Area 51? Is USENET2
sponsored by the United Nations and therefore is part of
the global domination strategy called Neww World Order?

> The devious part is that
> the victim can not tell his soul is under UII control until
> he attempts to use it. That can be anywhere from a few weeks to
> years for most usenet posters. And by then, the soul has already
> been smuggled out of the country or sold to AOL.

To AOL? That's unnecessary cruelty...

[Gurriato Gurriatez]

Jaume M. Canaves wrote:

> [multiple crossposting removed]

>
> On Tue, 11 Nov 1997, Gurriato Gurriatez wrote:
>
> > Artur, con cierta razon, llamo la atencion al hecho de que el grupo
> se

> > llama soc.culture.CATALAN, refiriendose al idioma, no al pais.
>
> Catalan CULTURE, my dear Dr Soria. Catalan Culture, and that includes
> the
> culture of Catalan-speakers, Spanish-speakers, gypsies (like Peret and
>
> others), etc.
>
> Of course the group does not refer to the Country!. The purpose of the
>
> group was creating a group for people living in countries with a
> common
> Catalan heritage, that is people living in areas in Spain, Italy,
> France,
> and Andorra, not restricted to Catalonia.
>

> > Si asi fuera deberia haberse llamado soc.culture.CATALUNYA.
>

> The reason for the name is clearly exposed before.
>
> Mr. Soria, why don't you put your shit together and focus on the real
> issue: the RATIONALE for the creation of soc.culture.charnego.
> Soc.culture.catalan is working well, and you can address your concerns
>
> about the health of the group anywhere else. Don't you think so?
>

Chaumita de misentrañas, I dont put shit together or separate. I don't
play with shit since age 1. I don't expect to play with shit until I'll
be ninety or so.Then I'll be drawing four bars with it on the walls of
the nursing home (recuerdos a Guifredo el Peludo, jejeje)

The RATIONALE for the creation of soc.culture.charnego is chitchatting
about Charnego stuff, capisce?

> > Tambien expreso la opinion de que la mayoria del trafico tendria que
> ser
> > en catalan, con la tolerancia de algun articulo ocasional en
> castellano.
>

> Well, that was the opinion of a person in a given moment. On the other
>
> hand Agusti Roig and most of posters have expressed in numerous
> occasions
> that messages in Spanish are welcome. Perhaps 1/3 or more of my
> messages
> in soc.culture.catalan are in Spanish!.

Mine were 1/3 or more in Catalan, and I still got the piruli-pirula of
the group.I'am proud to say that my Catalan is often better than tho one
spoken by some fascist pancas*

(*) panca= supporter of pancatalanism, the union of several countries
including Valencia and the Balearic Islands into a Mega Catalonia. This
is THE monotheme in soc.culture.catalan. They can talk about it for
hours. The other two topics are as follows:

a) three or four old folks in Alguer (Sardinia) who fifty years ago
still spoke broken Catalan.
b) the relation of Catalan to the occitan language of Southern France.

Whenerver somebody brings these topics to the group the whole pack
becames extatic.

However, if you dare to bring the issue of the relationship with the 3
millions of their countrymen who speak Spanish, they became hostile as
hell, and they chase you out of it (piruli-pirula) Spanish is not
consider a "proper" language (llengua propia) in Catalonia.

>
>
> > Por ese motivo expulso a la gente del grupo a la que no consideraba
> > linguistica o idelogicamente deseable en el grupo.
>

> And you are so naive that when somebody tell you to leave a group
> because
> of your trolling, you do it... I guess that if in any flame war
> everybody
> was reacting like you, the group would be empty in two weeks.

I left not because I was told to. I left because I was extremelly
annoyed by a chanting of piruli-pirula-piruli-pirula that went on for
days whenever I tried to post a message there. The rest of the group
thought that this was very funny and encouraged this behaviour.
Piruli-pirula-piruli isn't my kind of mantras. I find them boring.
Anyway, I think that you can make with your catalan group anything you
want. I don't care.

>
>
> Anyway, as clearly exposed in your messages in the thread 'ROBOTITOS A
> MI'
> and other threads you decided to abandon soc.culture.catalan because
> of
> the proposed moderation of the group, and most of people told you that
> if
> you wanted to self-exclude you from the group it was your decision
> but
> your posts were welcome if they were not crossposted to tons of
> irrelevant
> groups.

Tons? could you be a little more specific. I posted many of my messages
to both soc.culture.spain and soc.culture.catalan, something I still
think is perfectly appropiate. I was not posting them to
soc.culture.tibet or something like that. Some went to American Spanish
speaking groups. You don't seem to understand that Colombia is our
Andorra, and Venezuela is our Alguer.The Spanish speaking world is
rather large and an occasional crossporting to reach it is not a crimen
punished by the death penalty.

Te das cuen?

The experience of the Charnego is very SIMILAR to that of the Chicano
people. Both communities are trying to maintain their language in a
hostile territory ( May be you'd call it Territori Comanxe) I know both
societies quite well. For this reason I am posting (noT crossoposting)
my messages to both groups. If you don't like it you may go fly a kite

Bueno, lo dejo, que ya estoy hasta las narices de darle conversacion al
polakerio sobre tonterias sin importancia en mi vida.

Y como veo que te molesta la poesia, y para seguir con los temas
culturales, te dedico este poemilla clasico castellano, que parece
escrito especialmente para mi

Puede ser otoñal, mas nunca eunuco.
Siempre enhiesto y alzado como un pino;
las mujeres confirman que es divino
y que tiene grandisimo el trabuco.

Hasta luego. Y piruli-pirula, y a vivir, que son dos dias

EL COJO MANTECAS

LEVANTA PUEBLO CHARNEGO.
SUBIRAS COMO LA LECHE
CUANDO LA PONEN AL FUEGO

> > Los demas le habeis seguido la corriente y me parece la mar de bien
> que
> > haya un grupo dedicado a hablar en una lengua determinada que
> aparece en
> > su titulo.
>

> Soc.culture.catalan is not for Catalan language. The charter states
> clearly that it is a group about the Catalan language and the Catalan
> people in Catalan, Spanish, Occitan, French, English or Italian.
>

> > Lo que no me parece nada bien es el bloqueo de crear otro grupo para
> la
> > gente de Cataluña de habla castellana.
>

> The problems about the creation of the grup in the current terms of
> the
> proposal is what we are discusing now. If you want to discus the RFD,
> fine. If you don't want to, and you are just going to keep on
> repeating
> your mantras and whining about boycotts, racism, discrimination and
> other
> bullshit... you are going to end up killing all of us of an accute
> meningitis.
>
> [snip... plenty of snipping...]
>

> > Lo que no esta bien es que se cancelen los derechos linguisticos de
> una
> > comunidad de 3 millones de personas. Eso esta en contra de la Carta
> de
> > los Derechos Humanos y es un injusticia. Que alguien intente
> preservar
> > el idioma Apache o el de los indios Miskitos (pongo por ejemplo. No
> > tengo nada en contra de esa gente) me parece feten. Lo que no me
> > pareceria feten es que cogieran a mis niños y los escolarizaran en
> > lengua miskita por cojones y en contra de mis deseos. En el mundo
> hay
> > miles de idiomas, el la India hay mas de 500, y el intentar
> preservarlos
> > no es ninguna razon para desposeer a la gente de sus derechos.
>

> Are there 3 milion 'charnegos' and 500 milions indians in Usenet? Wow!
>
> That IS impressive... Dr. Soria, perhaps those issues are important on
>
> your cloud but they are irrelevant in the discusion of the proposal.
>
> [about 70 lines of stuff already repeated in a number of posts
> deleted]
>
> Salut,
>
> Jaume
>
> -----
> ---------------------------------------------------------------------

[Sinner from the Prairy]

[multiple crossposting removed from header]

Gurriato Gurriatez wrote:

> Jaume M. Canaves wrote:

[multiple crossposting removed]

> Mine were 1/3 or more in Catalan, and I still got the piruli-pirula of
> the group.I'am proud to say that my Catalan is often better than tho one
> spoken by some fascist pancas*

Dear Mr. Gurriato. You were never fired from s.c.catalan. You leaved it in
agreement with Mr. Viper. Then, you both began to promote the Irrationale
of C.C.Charnego as another way to attack catalan people (spanish or catalan
speakers akike) that wasn't close to your extremist points of view.

Your hillarating poems and delirating cook recepies were allways wellcome.
But your non-gallant and sistematic attack to "polakos" and to "charnegos
self-selled to the enemy" were always disturbing and fll of hate.

Now, you've gone from s.c.catalan. By your own will. And now you try to
build this group from an ugly word, now only used by dictionaries, by Mr.
Viper, Mr. Enrique and You!

> (*) panca= supporter of pancatalanism, the union of several countries
> including Valencia and the Balearic Islands into a Mega Catalonia. This
> is THE monotheme in soc.culture.catalan. They can talk about it for
> hours. The other two topics are as follows:

This is what YOU say. Check out all the messages concerning this. You'll
find accusations of against-catalonia people accusing catalan people ang
Goverment of those (obviously false) ideas.

If the Catalan, Balearic and Valencian Universities declare, agree and
publish explicitely that all of them are part of the same ***culture***,
this does **not** imply that the Catalan Goverment is planning an
amphibious assault on Balearic Islands and a Parachute & Gliders invasion
of Valencian land!

Ask Mr. Johny Maracas. He is Valencian. He wants to keep being Valencian.
But he agree that we have the same culture. And his language, called in
Valencia "Valencià" is the same language spoken in Catalonia and called
"Català".

Ask Mr. Jaume Canaves. He is Balearic. He wants to keep being Balearic. But
he agree that we have the same culture. And his language, called in
Majorica "Mallorquí" is the same language spoken in Catalonia and called
"Català".

> a) three or four old folks in Alguer (Sardinia) who fifty years ago
> still spoke broken Catalan.

They still speak catalan and this month they have had an agreement with the
Italian goverment that explicitely recognises their language (catalan) and
that it is an official language in that part of Italy.

> b) the relation of Catalan to the occitan language of Southern France.

Well, they are close from a linguistic point of view. Go and visit

www.uni-bielefeld.de/~aguado

and check the area LANGUAGE IN EUROPE.

> Whenerver somebody brings these topics to the group the whole pack
> becames extatic.

The same etasy you enter in when somebody says "argentinian" or "catalan"
(well, you rather prefere the despective words "argento" and "polako")

> However, if you dare to bring the issue of the relationship with the 3
> millions of their countrymen who speak Spanish, they became hostile as
> hell, and they chase you out of it (piruli-pirula) Spanish is not
> consider a "proper" language (llengua propia) in Catalonia.

No way. Everybody writes their opinion. Everybody discusses it... and
everybody ends with a better comprenhension of the other's ide point of
view... except when Mr. Viper, Mr. Gurriat or Mr. Enrique drop by, beguin
his unlimited crossposting and the contest "Who describes a 'polako' with
'fagot' and similar words more times, wins the prize" begans...

> I left not because I was told to. I left because I was extremelly
> annoyed by a chanting of piruli-pirula-piruli-pirula that went on for
> days whenever I tried to post a message there. The rest of the group
> thought that this was very funny and encouraged this behaviour.
> Piruli-pirula-piruli isn't my kind of mantras. I find them boring.
> Anyway, I think that you can make with your catalan group anything you
> want. I don't care.

If ***once*** Mr. Arturo send his +3.000 line "piruli-pirula" message... we
must consider him Usenet First Enemy. I will quote a message where I turn
this point to a nonsense point:

_________________begin quote

Subject: Again, BIGEST LIAR EVER Strikes Back Re: STOP CATALAN NATIONALIST
SHAMEFUL PROPAGANDA. Era: Biggest Liar Ever: Mr. Viper Re: WHO IS DR. ARTUR
SIXTO? (concerning RFD:soc.culture.charnego)
Date: Wed, 05 Nov 1997 16:59:14 +0100
From: Sinner from the Prairy <sinner_...@hotmailXX.comXX>
Organization: The Prairy
Newsgroups: soc.culture.catalan
References: 1

Viper wrote:

> Sinner from the Prairy wrote:

> THESE ARE FACTS:

> Subject: [largo] Re: Himno nassional,
bersion panalfabetos: Himno
> nassional para banda de cornetas y tambores,
era irrellevant
> From: as1...@cus.cam.ac.uk (artur)
> Date: 1997/10/13
> Message-ID:
<61tph2$f7c$1...@lyra.csx.cam.ac.uk>

===============
As you can see, in this thread the posters
were trying to get a comic
approach to the lyrics of the Spanish National
Anthem.

The subjects tells us "[long] Re: National
Anthem, iliterate's version:
National Anthem for drums and trumpets, was
nosense" but in a near-joke
way.

For example, note the word "nassional". In
proper spanish would have been
"nacional". But they were trying to make it
sound funnier. So they put a
'double-s' instead of the proper 'c'.

Then, they write "bersion" instead of
"versión" and "panalfabetos" instead
of "para analfabetos". More jokes here.

In the end, they keep using "nassional" and
end with a "irrellevant"
(nosense, irrelevant) that prompt you to the
absolute meaningless of this
posting.

IMHO, the content is trully appropiate for
this thread. Certainly it is
waaaaaaaaaaaay to long, but sometimes you get
bigger posts when someone "is
absolutely sure" that sending this inmense
binary attachment will make
everyone's lifes easier.

> Article Segment 39 of 39
> (Get Previous Segment)
> (Get All 39 Segments)
> Piru-piru-piru piruli, piru-piru-piru
pirula.
> Piru-piru-piru piruli, piru-piru-piru
pirula.
> Piru-piru-piru piruli, piru-piru-piru
pirula.
> Piru-piru-piru piruli, piru-piru-piru
pirula.
> Piru-piru-piru piruli, piru-piru-piru
pirula.
> Piru-piru-piru piruli, piru-piru-piru
pirula.
> Piru-piru-piru piruli, piru-piru-piru
pirula.

> (until 3118 lines)

> CROSSPOSTING IS NOT TERRORISM

Who said that? Please, do not YELL at me. I
just point out that this is
**not** terrorism under any point of view.

Let me tell you, that soc.culture.catalan is
trying to avoid xposting to
get rid off from so many flamewars that
someone decides to xpost to
s.c.catalan.

You can see that everyone knew in advance that
this particular post was not
going to be extremely (live or death)
important.

This Mr. Viper seems to be allucinated.

You will enjoy very much his articles on
sexual orientation of catalans,
argentinians and "charnegos"-without-his-ideas
at **Dejanews**.

If you do not understand spanish, please post
it to any of the
spanish-speaking forums and/or to
soc.culture.catalan or to
soc.culture.galizia Also have in mind that
castilian spanish is slightly
different from mexican-spanish. So first get
two versions of the
translation to get the real idea of the post.

I'll be pleased to translate it to you into
english.

> THE ARTICLE ABOVE IS TERRORISM

The article above is just a fun way of writing
down the "music" of an
anthem. Just a joke (but looong, I have to
say)

> SOC.CULTURE.SPAIN HAS BEEN MAILBOMBED
SEVERAL TIMES BY ARGENTINIANS AND
> RADICAL CATALANS

>From s.c.spain you have xposted to death
s.c.catalan and s.c.argentina,
you must say.

Enjoy Dejanews and learn the truth on
"argentos" and "polakos" (or
"polacos"), derogative (and on Mr. Viper
style) sinonimous for
"argentinians" and "catalans".

> THIS IS THE TRUTH.

This is another lie on the net.

Don't let this troll-maker and wierdo
interfere with your regular
activities. He is an excellent trouble-maker.
He will x-post you to death!

| Viper |
| mmar...@alu-etsetb.upc.es |

Sinner from the Prairy.

===================Subject:
Again, BIGEST LIAR EVER Strikes
Back Re: STOP CATALAN
NATIONALIST SHAMEFUL
PROPAGANDA. Era: Biggest Liar
Ever: Mr. Viper Re: WHO IS DR.
ARTUR SIXTO? (concerning RFD:
soc.culture.charnego)
Date:
Wed, 05 Nov 1997 16:59:14 +0100
From:
Sinner from the Prairy <sinner_...@hotmailXX.comXX>
Organization:
The Prairy
Newsgroups:
soc.culture.catalan
References:
1

(sent also to soc.culture.spain and to
news.groups)

Viper wrote:

> Sinner from the Prairy wrote:

> THESE ARE FACTS:

> Subject: [largo] Re: Himno nassional,
bersion panalfabetos: Himno
> nassional para banda de cornetas y tambores,
era irrellevant
> From: as1...@cus.cam.ac.uk (artur)
> Date: 1997/10/13
> Message-ID:
<61tph2$f7c$1...@lyra.csx.cam.ac.uk>

===============
As you can see, in this thread the posters were trying to get a comic
approach to the lyrics of the Spanish National Anthem.

The subjects tells us "[long] Re: National Anthem, iliterate's version:
National Anthem for drums and trumpets, was nosense" but in a near-joke
way.

For example, note the word "nassional". In proper spanish would have been
"nacional". But they were trying to make it sound funnier. So they put a
'double-s' instead of the proper 'c'.

Then, they write "bersion" instead of "versión" and "panalfabetos" instead
of "para analfabetos". More jokes here.

In the end, they keep using "nassional" and end with a "irrellevant"
(nosense, irrelevant) that prompt you to the absolute meaningless of this
posting.

IMHO, the content is trully appropiate for this thread. Certainly it is
waaaaaaaaaaaay to long, but sometimes you get bigger posts when someone "is
absolutely sure" that sending this inmense binary attachment will make
everyone's lifes easier.

> Article Segment 39 of 39
> (Get Previous Segment)
> (Get All 39 Segments)
> Piru-piru-piru piruli, piru-piru-piru pirula.
> Piru-piru-piru piruli, piru-piru-piru pirula.
> Piru-piru-piru piruli, piru-piru-piru pirula.
> Piru-piru-piru piruli, piru-piru-piru pirula.
> Piru-piru-piru piruli, piru-piru-piru pirula.
> Piru-piru-piru piruli, piru-piru-piru pirula.
> Piru-piru-piru piruli, piru-piru-piru pirula.

> (until 3118 lines)

> CROSSPOSTING IS NOT TERRORISM

Who said that? Please, do not YELL at me. I just point out that this is
**not** terrorism under any point of view.

Let me tell you, that soc.culture.catalan is trying to avoid xposting to
get rid off from so many flamewars that someone decides to xpost to
s.c.catalan.

You can see that everyone knew in advance that this particular post was not
going to be extremely (live or death) important.

This Mr. Viper seems to be allucinated.

You will enjoy very much his articles on sexual orientation of catalans,
argentinians and "charnegos"-without-his-ideas at **Dejanews**.

If you do not understand spanish, please post it to any of the
spanish-speaking forums and/or to soc.culture.catalan or to
soc.culture.galizia Also have in mind that castilian spanish is slightly
different from mexican-spanish. So first get
two versions of the translation to get the real idea of the post.

I'll be pleased to translate it to you into english.

> THE ARTICLE ABOVE IS TERRORISM

The article above is just a fun way of writing down the "music" of an
anthem. Just a joke (but looong, I have to say)

> SOC.CULTURE.SPAIN HAS BEEN MAILBOMBED SEVERAL TIMES BY ARGENTINIANS AND
> RADICAL CATALANS

From s.c.spain you have xposted to death s.c.catalan and s.c.argentina,
you must say.

Enjoy Dejanews and learn the truth on "argentos" and "polakos" (or
"polacos"), derogative (and on Mr. Viper style) sinonimous for
"argentinians" and "catalans".

> THIS IS THE TRUTH.

This is another lie on the net.

Don't let this troll-maker and wierdo interfere with your regular
activities. He is an excellent trouble-maker. He will x-post you to death!

> | Viper |
> | mmar...@alu-etsetb.upc.es |

Sinner from the Prairy.

____________________end quote

[snip]

> The experience of the Charnego is very SIMILAR to that of the Chicano
> people. Both communities are trying to maintain their language in a
> hostile territory ( May be you'd call it Territori Comanxe) I know both
> societies quite well. For this reason I am posting (noT crossoposting)
> my messages to both groups. If you don't like it you may go fly a kite

They are very different but one point: they language is Spanish.

Chicanos have been living where they are for centuries, they never moved,
the frontiers moved.

Spanish-speaking immigrants in Catalonia moved in the last 40 years to this
land.

Chicanos never ignoread that in USA most of the people speaks english.

Part of the Spanish-speaking immigrants in Catalonia still ignores that
there's a language (catalan language) and a culture in Catalonia different
from the Spanish culture. There's even a Catalan Sign Language for the
speaking-disabled people!

Chicanos' language (Spanish) is not the official language of the USA.

Spanish is the official language in **all** Spain and it is a must to know
it. Catalan is a language that you have the right to know it. Spanish must
be learned by everybody within Spanish frontiers. Catalan can be ignored if
it is yor will. No penalties around.

[snip]
> EL COJO MANTECAS

--

I Disagree on soc.culture.charnego
I Agree on alt.flame.catalonia or alt.talk.politics.catalonia

Sinner from the Prairy.
Replay to: "sinner_pr...@hotmailNOSPAM.NOSPAMcom"
Discharge 'NOSPAM' to reach me

*****************************
* F A L C A T A P O W E R *
*,----..._______ _____*
*|^^^|¨¨| ____ \_____/ __ /*
*\___|---______ ____ ___/ *
* \______/ *
*****************************

[estud...@ciudad.com.ar]

In article <Pine.SOL.3.96.971111141136.15185B-100000@biomail>,
"Jaume M. Canaves" <jcan...@ucsd.edu> wrote:
>
>
> [multiple crossposting removed]
>

Y por qué los removieron?

> On Tue, 11 Nov 1997, Gurriato Gurriatez wrote:
>

> > Artur, con cierta razon, llamo la atencion al hecho de que el grupo se

> > llama soc.culture.CATALAN, refiriendose al idioma, no al pais.
>
> Catalan CULTURE, my dear Dr Soria. Catalan Culture, and that includes the
> culture of Catalan-speakers, Spanish-speakers, gypsies (like Peret and
> others), etc.
>

Via Dejanews aparece soc.culture.catalunya.

> Of course the group does not refer to the Country!. The purpose of the
> group was creating a group for people living in countries with a common
> Catalan heritage, that is people living in areas in Spain, Italy, France,
> and Andorra, not restricted to Catalonia.
>

> > Si asi fuera deberia haberse llamado soc.culture.CATALUNYA.
>

> The reason for the name is clearly exposed before.
>
> Mr. Soria, why don't you put your shit together and focus on the real
> issue: the RATIONALE for the creation of soc.culture.charnego.
> Soc.culture.catalan is working well, and you can address your concerns
> about the health of the group anywhere else. Don't you think so?
>

> > Tambien expreso la opinion de que la mayoria del trafico tendria que ser
> > en catalan, con la tolerancia de algun articulo ocasional en castellano.
>

> Well, that was the opinion of a person in a given moment. On the other
> hand Agusti Roig and most of posters have expressed in numerous occasions
> that messages in Spanish are welcome. Perhaps 1/3 or more of my messages
> in soc.culture.catalan are in Spanish!.
>

> > Por ese motivo expulso a la gente del grupo a la que no consideraba
> > linguistica o idelogicamente deseable en el grupo.
>

> And you are so naive that when somebody tell you to leave a group because
> of your trolling, you do it... I guess that if in any flame war everybody
> was reacting like you, the group would be empty in two weeks.
>

> Anyway, as clearly exposed in your messages in the thread 'ROBOTITOS A MI'
> and other threads you decided to abandon soc.culture.catalan because of
> the proposed moderation of the group, and most of people told you that if
> you wanted to self-exclude you from the group it was your decision but
> your posts were welcome if they were not crossposted to tons of irrelevant
> groups.
>

> > Los demas le habeis seguido la corriente y me parece la mar de bien que
> > haya un grupo dedicado a hablar en una lengua determinada que aparece en
> > su titulo.
>

> Soc.culture.catalan is not for Catalan language. The charter states
> clearly that it is a group about the Catalan language and the Catalan
> people in Catalan, Spanish, Occitan, French, English or Italian.
>

> > Lo que no me parece nada bien es el bloqueo de crear otro grupo para la
> > gente de Cataluña de habla castellana.
>

> The problems about the creation of the grup in the current terms of the
> proposal is what we are discusing now. If you want to discus the RFD,
> fine. If you don't want to, and you are just going to keep on repeating
> your mantras and whining about boycotts, racism, discrimination and other
> bullshit... you are going to end up killing all of us of an accute
> meningitis.
>
> [snip... plenty of snipping...]
>

> > Lo que no esta bien es que se cancelen los derechos linguisticos de una
> > comunidad de 3 millones de personas. Eso esta en contra de la Carta de
> > los Derechos Humanos y es un injusticia. Que alguien intente preservar
> > el idioma Apache o el de los indios Miskitos (pongo por ejemplo. No
> > tengo nada en contra de esa gente) me parece feten. Lo que no me
> > pareceria feten es que cogieran a mis niños y los escolarizaran en
> > lengua miskita por cojones y en contra de mis deseos. En el mundo hay
> > miles de idiomas, el la India hay mas de 500, y el intentar preservarlos
> > no es ninguna razon para desposeer a la gente de sus derechos.
>

> Are there 3 milion 'charnegos' and 500 milions indians in Usenet? Wow!
> That IS impressive... Dr. Soria, perhaps those issues are important on
> your cloud but they are irrelevant in the discusion of the proposal.
>
> [about 70 lines of stuff already repeated in a number of posts deleted]
>
> Salut,
>
> Jaume
>

Así que seguís en San Diego, y en La Jolla. Je Je, la tierra de Manzano.

> ---------------------------------------------------------------------------

> Jaume M. Canaves i Vives ICQ#4740306 "Life is a ___
> UCSD - Biology (0366) /_\ Y sexually transmitted (0,0)
> 9500 Gilman Dr. 7 // \\ ( ) 100% lethal < . >
> La Jolla, California 92093 \\_// \\_// disease" --"-"--

> ---------------------------------------------------------------------------

-------------------==== Posted via Deja News ====-----------------------
http://www.dejanews.com/ Search, Read, Post to Usenet

[Gurriato Gurriatez]

Russ Allbery wrote:

> In news.groups, Gurriato Gurriatez <eso...@unmc.edu> writes:
>

> > To exist you need pre-existing traffic

> > To get traffic you need to be existing already
>

> The second statement is wrong. There are innumerable newsgroups in
> which
> the culture of Spanish-speaking Catalans could be discussed now (such
> as
> either soc.culture.spain or soc.culture.catalan). It would, of
> course,
> require that the participants exercise some self-control and not
> engage in
> the on-going flamewars.

We could just as well have a single group in the Net with two million
postings in it.

This is the eternal argument between lumpers and splitters.

I remind you that soc.culture.catalan refers to Catalan, a language and
a culture, not to Catalonia , a country. Otherwise it would have to be
called soc.culture.catalonian. The forum is meant to discuss issues
germane to Catalan culture and language. The main opponent to the
Charnego forum, Mr Sixto made this point quite clear. We are perceived
as intruders in soc.culture.catalan, and our presence is not wanted
there. This forum was not creted to discuss charnego issues.

Soc.culture.spain has already too much traffic. There are days with
more than200 postings. It is almost impossible to follow the threads
coherently. About one third of the traffict consits of Charnego related
matters. I think this is a good time to split into a separate group.

>
>
> > We have expent two weeks trying to contrarrest the bombardement and
> > boycott by people such as Artur Sixto, who has flooded the thread
> with
> > ad hominem falacies and defamations of character
>

> Next time, killfile him and talk about what you want to talk about.

No, Sir. The accussations were made in public and had to be answered.
Otherwise people would think that we agreed wiith his statements. We
would have prefered a calm, peaceful forum in which we would have had a
chance to bring forward the reasons for our desire to create a group,
instead of expendinf hours answering silly accusations. You took these
accusstions quite seriously yourself (you called them "antics"), thus
encouraging them. The proper moderation of this debate would have
required a statement that the group and not the proponents was under
scrutiny. You have rewarded the behaviour of those who made this debate
a riotous hoopla to boycott the project. I have been trying to present
the case with lengthy serious discussions. You seem to pay attention
only to flamewars.

I don't think any one should be given the privilege of silencing a
community by simply orchestrating a barrage of articles difaming the
proponents.

>
>
> > The matter of fact is that the Net has given a forum to a Catalonian
>
> > community of 3 million people (soc.culture.catalan) but denies a
> > simmilar forum to a Catalonian community, also 3 million strong,
> just
> > because is a Spanish speaking one,
>

> Um, no. There is a forum for groups of people who have been on the
> net in
> sufficient numbers to warrant one. Neither of those communities have
> three million people on Usenet, and it's the number of people on
> Usenet
> that's relevant.

Charnegos are more than half the population of Catalonia

Catalan speaking people (less than half) have a group of their own.

Charnegos don't

Does it mean that Charnegos don't use Usenet and Catalan-speaking people
do?

How you count people of different communities using Usenet?

You can count articles in the catalan community because they have a
group

You caanot count ours because we don't have one.

You would not count the tremendous number of Charnego related articles
in soc.culture.spain

You don't accept people sending notes of support to news.groups as a
valid evidence.

How do you supopose we should be proving the existence of large Charnego
participation in Usenet? Pease, tell us.

Americans call it Catch 22: We cannot get a group because we cannot
prove that we participate in sufficient numbers.
We cannot prove taht we participate in sufficient numbers becasuse we
don't have a group.

> > Only the Internet users fluent or semifluent in English had had a
> chance
> > to participate in this traffic of conversations. The relevance of
> the
> > postings in English for the last two weeks in this forum to the
> postings
> > related to the Charnegos posted in Spanish in their own forum do not
>
> > appear quite clear to me.
>

> This sounds like an excellent argument in favor of an es.* newsgroup,
> where the entire discussion could be held in Spanish and where the
> rules
> may be more to your liking. I'd encourage you to investigate that
> possibility.

No, this is again a falacy. I dont think that the percentage of people
fluent in English is higher in Turkey than among the Charnegos, and
turkish speaking people have a soc.culture and we don't. The same apply
to Argeria (I believe) and algerians have a soc.culture. and we don't

I dont think there is a higher total number of English speaking people
in Galicia (Galiza), Spain and they have a soc.culture, and we don't.

Galicians and Basques and Catalonians could carry their discussions sin
soc.culture.spain too, or use a es.* newsgroup.

Mexican Americans could carry their conversations in
soc.culture.mexican, couldn't they?

Why Charnegos are different? The numbers of Charnegos are roughly as
high as the nuimber of Galicians and Basques and Catalonians.

The Catalonian Nationalists want to send us to some absurd group of
expatriates. Would you care to explain why we are the Cinderellas in
this tale. What kind of shoe do you want us to fit in?

Just because a bunch of dedicated far right nationalist want to give the
impression of a solid, monolingual societey and make a lot of noise, it
is not a reason to deny us our room in the Net.

GURRIATO GURRIATEZ

[Jaume M. Canaves]

On Tue, 11 Nov 1997, Gurriato Gurriatez wrote:

> The RATIONALE for the creation of soc.culture.charnego is chitchatting
> about Charnego stuff, capisce?

No that's not. That could be part of the 'Charter' but in the 'Rationale'
you should explain the reasons for the creation of the group *in Usenet*,
and justify the creation of the group.

> (*) panca= supporter of pancatalanism, the union of several countries
> including Valencia and the Balearic Islands into a Mega Catalonia. This
> is THE monotheme in soc.culture.catalan.

Some people have those political points of view, some have your points of
view, and most of people dissagree with both. I'm from the Balearic
Islands and I'm not for the union with other countries.

> a) three or four old folks in Alguer (Sardinia) who fifty years ago
> still spoke broken Catalan.
> b) the relation of Catalan to the occitan language of Southern France.

In is evident your contempt with Catalan and other languages. Do you still
want to make people believe the 'Charter' of soc.culture.charnego saying
that contributions in Catalan are welcome?

> Whenerver somebody brings these topics to the group the whole pack
> becames extatic.

So, the other members of the group that don't support your political
points of view are "The Pack". How do you expect any respect from other
people if you called them 'traitors', 'fags', 'polakos', 'a pack', etc.
And when one of them instead of taking your bragging seriusly goes and
tells you 'piruli piruli' you go berserk.

> However, if you dare to bring the issue of the relationship with the 3
> millions of their countrymen who speak Spanish, they became hostile as
> hell, and they chase you out of it (piruli-pirula) Spanish is not
> consider a "proper" language (llengua propia) in Catalonia.

Dr. Soria, all you have complained about is a puntual argument in which
somebody was making fun on you saying 'piruli pirula'. You look quite
obsessed with that 'piruli pirula'.

> I left not because I was told to. I left because I was extremelly
> annoyed by a chanting of piruli-pirula-piruli-pirula that went on for
> days whenever I tried to post a message there.

Yeah, you had some silly argument with ONE person... and look what a mess
we have now because of that...

> The rest of the group thought that this was very funny and encouraged
> this behaviour.

It was funny. You are funny, specially the way you answer the messages
with all kinds of poetry, telling parables, and other stuff. People was
quite amused with all that.

> Piruli-pirula-piruli isn't my kind of mantras. I find them boring.
> Anyway, I think that you can make with your catalan group anything you
> want. I don't care.

Since the 'charnegos' are Spanish-speaking Catalans, the proposed group
would also be a Catalan group. Perhaps what you mean is that after leaving
soc.culture.catalan you want to have your own Catalan group... Is that
what you mean?. On the other side, if soc.culture.charnego is not going
to be a Catalan group, that would mean that 'charnegos' are not Catalan.
What are they then Dr. Soria? Spaniards? Then that would mean that the
right group for those issues is soc.culture.spain.

> Tons? could you be a little more specific. I posted many of my messages
> to both soc.culture.spain and soc.culture.catalan, something I still
> think is perfectly appropiate. I was not posting them to
> soc.culture.tibet or something like that.

More specific: soc.culture.cambodia... Is'nt that true?

---------------------------------------------------------------------------

Jaume M. Canaves i Vives ICQ#4740306 "Life is a ___
UCSD - Biology (0366) /_\ Y sexually transmitted (0,0)
9500 Gilman Dr. 7 // \\ ( ) 100% lethal < . >
La Jolla, California 92093 \\_// \\_// disease" --"-"--

---------------------------------------------------------------------------

[Jaume M. Canaves]

On Wed, 12 Nov 1997, Gurriato Gurriatez wrote:

> I remind you that soc.culture.catalan refers to Catalan, a language and
> a culture, not to Catalonia , a country. Otherwise it would have to be
> called soc.culture.catalonian. The forum is meant to discuss issues
> germane to Catalan culture and language.

As as side note, and IMHO irrelevant for the discusion about SCCh:

soc.culture.catalan got that name because it's scope is not restricted to
Catalonia but all countries with a common Catalan heritage. The Catalan
culture not only includes the Catalan language but also the
Spanish-catalan, Occitan-catalan, French-catalan and Italian-catalans.
Therefore, the languages acceptable for posting in soc.culture.catalan
are Catalan, English, Spanish, Occitan, French and Italian.

> The main opponent to the Charnego forum, Mr Sixto made this point quite
> clear.

You should say "my nemesis, Mr Sixto"... Looks like that history about the
'piruli pirula' left a mark on you, Dr. Soria.

> We are perceived as intruders in soc.culture.catalan, and our presence
> is not wanted there.

We? Are you using the majestatic subject? (just kidding...). What is
considered an intrusion is trolling, massive xposting and namecalling.
You were told multiple times that your presence was wellcome provided you
stopped those kinds of infantile behavior.

> This forum was not creted to discuss charnego issues.

Of course not. It was created to discuss the issues from all the
linguistic communities living in countries with a common Catalan
heritage.

> Soc.culture.spain has already too much traffic. There are days with
> more than 200 postings.

Then soc.culture.spain should use that to propose the formation of some
splinter group about politics or whatever.

> It is almost impossible to follow the threads coherently.

Get a new reader. Have you heard about Free Agent?

> About one third of the traffict consits of Charnego related
> matters.

Flames?

> I think this is a good time to split into a separate group.

Propose that to the soc.culture.spain readeship and come back with a new
RFD...

> encouraging them. The proper moderation of this debate would have
> required a statement that the group and not the proponents was under
> scrutiny.

The person in charge of that moderation should have been Mr. Viper.

> You have rewarded the behaviour of those who made this debate
> a riotous hoopla to boycott the project.

When the first comments were made about the RFD your first reaction was
calling it a boycott. It is not. If you like Stalinist attitutes, so be
it, but this is a discussion and everybody is free to critizice the
proposal in constructive ways. Nobody opposes the creation of a forum to
discuss those issues, but are refusing to accept any alternative places
to locate the group.

> I have been trying to present the case with lengthy serious discussions.

All you have done is writing lenghty documents about how disconform you
are with the linguistic policy of the Catalan government, not about the
creation of a group.

> You seem to pay attention only to flamewars.

What about your calls to "Holy Flame War" is other groups like
soc.culture.mexican.american or soc.culture.argentina?. Nobody else
in this discussion has been posting messages to other groups calling
for support to start a flame war in news.groups. Nobody has been
xposting to multiple groups expecting to stir more controversy.

> I don't think any one should be given the privilege of silencing a
> community by simply orchestrating a barrage of articles difaming the
> proponents.

You are a community of three. And that community of three has been
silencing over and over other members of what you call 'your community'
like Antonio Ortiz and Juanjo Sanmartin. You can claim some rights, but
you have to respect the right of others to express their disenting
opinions.

> Charnegos are more than half the population of Catalonia

That's real life, not Usenet. Here you have 2 (Viper + Milu) for the
group and the rest of Spanish-speaking Catalans saying it is not right.
That's what we have.

> Catalan speaking people (less than half) have a group of their own.

Go there and look at the traffic. Today half of the messages were in
Spanish, and Spanish-speaking people like Juanjo, Antonio, Osram, etc
were participating normally.

[several ABSOLUTELY clueless questions removed]

> Americans call it Catch 22: We cannot get a group because we cannot
> prove that we participate in sufficient numbers.
> We cannot prove taht we participate in sufficient numbers becasuse we
> don't have a group.

I answered THE SAME questions in a previous message. Can you read???

> The Catalonian Nationalists want to send us to some absurd group of
> expatriates. Would you care to explain why we are the Cinderellas in
> this tale. What kind of shoe do you want us to fit in?

Why this insistence in calling everybody participating in this discusion
Catalonian Nationalist. Is Antonio Ortiz a Catalan Nationalist? Is Juanjo
Sanmartin a Catalan Nationalist? What about Agusti Roig? What about Russ?
What about Lynn? What about Henrietta?

> Just because a bunch of dedicated far right nationalist want to give the
> impression of a solid, monolingual societey and make a lot of noise, it
> is not a reason to deny us our room in the Net.

Pretty demagogic argument, Dr. Soria. How would that sound the reverse
argument:

Just because a bunch of dedicated right wing extremists want to give the
impression of representing a supposedly oppresed cultural group and make
a lot of noise, it is not a reason to grant them a room in the net.

Cheers,

Jaume

[Jaume M. Canaves]

On Thu, 13 Nov 1997, Lynn Diana Gazis wrote:

> Gurriato Gurriatez (eso...@unmc.edu) wrote:
>
> : No, this is again a falacy. I dont think that the percentage of people

> : fluent in English is higher in Turkey than among the Charnegos, and
> : turkish speaking people have a soc.culture and we don't. The same apply
> : to Argeria (I believe) and algerians have a soc.culture. and we don't
>

> The initial proposal for soc.culture.turkish was greeted with extreme
> skepticism about whether there would be enough traffic to justify the
> group (I believe the first response was "Are you *sure* you'll have
> enough traffic?"). The proponent justified the group partly based on
> existing traffic on soc.culture.greek and talk.politics.mideast, but
> primarly based on two very active mailing lists, both of which were
> concerned with Turkish culture. These reports of traffic convinced the
> critics, and the group got no more than the usual number of NO votes.

Pretty similar to the process that lead to the creation of
soc.culture.catalan. The list cata...@cs.rice.edu was created
in 1992, without listserv distribution. In 1993 the list was
transformed into a bitnet list with the name cat...@ebcesca1.bitnet.
By mid 1993 bit.listserv.catala was created, and until november 1995
there was not enough traffic to justify the creation of a Usenet
group. It was not an easy process. It was not 'The Three Amigos'
deciding it was about time. And the proponent, Jordi Iparraguirre
(according to Dr. Soria a 'charnego'), didn't come to news.groups
*demanding* a group because he was talking for *milions* of oppresed
Catalan people and claiming discrimination because there was a group
called soc.culture.spain.

[Henrietta Thomas]

In news.groups on Tue, 11 Nov 1997 16:10:20 -0500, Enrique Diaz-Alvarez
<enr...@ee.cornell.edu> wrote:

>Jaume M. Canaves wrote:

>> A reason to create a soc.culture.charnego would be the existance of such
>> cultural discusions either in soc.culture.spain or in soc.culture.catalan.
>> But that traffic doesn't exist right now.
>
>I posted a list of topics other than politics that have been
>extensively discussed. Since it was Henrietta Thomas who first brought
>this up, I posted this list in reply to her posting. I will now
>reproduce it here:
>
>- The historical roots of the charnego presence in Catalonia
>
>- The socioeconomic status of charnegos in today's Catalonia
>
>- The effect that charnego migration has had on Catalonia's prosperity
>
>- Cultural differences and similarities between charnegos and "native"
>Catalans
>
>- Attittudes of charnegos and non-charnegos towards the Francoist
>dictatorship, and its effect on them
>
>- Possible effects that the Catalan government's cultural and linguistic
>policies may have on charnego attittudes towards their culture and
>identity
>
>- The effects that being taught in a language different from their
>mother tongue has had and will have on the academic peroformance of
>charnego kids.
>
>- The outflow of Spanish-speaking teachers from Catalonia, and its
>possible causes
>
>- The similarities and differences between the charnego experience in
>Catalonia and the chicano experience in the USA.

And I am sorry I didn't respond to you sooner. I still stand by my original
thought that this proposal is all about politics rather than culture. But
the list you have above could be reworked into an RFD to create a group
called soc.culture.castilian, which would be a place for Castilian-speakers
to gather together and talk about their language and their culture -- in other
words, a companion group to soc.culture.catalan (which is a language, not
a place). I have made a suggestion along those lines to Dr. Soria, and I
hope he will consider it as a viable alternative to soc.culture.charnego.
The article is farther up in this thread. I hope you will read it and give me
your reaction.

Henrietta Thomas
h...@wwa.com

---
Confused by the noise in news.groups? For an in-depth explanation,
see the Bernstein/McQuitty news.groups FAQ:
http://www.tezcat.com/~josephb/newsgroups/debate.html

[Henrietta Thomas]

In news.groups on Wed, 12 Nov 1997 14:54:54 -0800, "Jaume M. Canaves"
<jcan...@ucsd.edu> wrote:

>On Tue, 11 Nov 1997, Gurriato Gurriatez wrote:
>
>> The RATIONALE for the creation of soc.culture.charnego is chitchatting
>> about Charnego stuff, capisce?
>

>No that's not. That could be part of the 'Charter' but in the 'Rationale'
>you should explain the reasons for the creation of the group *in Usenet*,
>and justify the creation of the group.

Complete this paragraph, please:

Catalonia is an autonomous region in Spain where Catalan is the
official language taught in the public schools. There is a Usenet
newsgroup, soc.culture.catalan, dedicated to the discussion of
"the Catalan language and the lands where it is spoken." But all
Catalonians are not Catalan-speakers. There has been a sizeable
minority of Castilian-speakers in the region for many years, but
there is no Usenet newsgroup dedicated to the discussion of their
Castilian language and culture.

Henrietta Thomas
h...@wwa.com

[Concha]

>- La inmersion linguistica se realiza para salvar el idioma catalan y

>para favorecer el bilinguismo de todos los alumnos. Se busca una

>comprension del 50% tanto en catalan y castellano. Si realmente fuera
>para exterminar el castellano estaria en desacuerdo con la inmersion y
>cuando el catalan esté a salvo será innecesaria la exclusividad de la
>enseñanza en catalán.

He leído con mucha atención varios de sus mesurados escritos y me ha
sorprendido lo que aquí escribe. ¿No le parece un poco inocente pensar
que "cuando el catalan esté a salvo será innecesaria la exclusividad
de la enseñanza en catalán"?

Sin querer entrar en un juicio de intenciones (que tanto abundan) me
parece un poco temerario imaginarlo.

Adios

Concha.

mequi mequi!!!

[CARLOS F. POLI]

>In article <Pine.SOL.3.96.971111141136.15185B-100000@biomail>,

> "Jaume M. Canaves" <jcan...@ucsd.edu> wrote:
>>
>>

>> [multiple crossposting removed]
>>
>
>Y por qué los removieron?
>

porque son !censureros"!

>
>> On Tue, 11 Nov 1997, Gurriato Gurriatez wrote:
>>

>> > Artur, con cierta razon, llamo la atencion al hecho de que el grupo se

>> > llama soc.culture.CATALAN, refiriendose al idioma, no al pais.
>>
>> Catalan CULTURE, my dear Dr Soria. Catalan Culture, and that includes the
>> culture of Catalan-speakers, Spanish-speakers, gypsies (like Peret and
>> others), etc.
>>
>
>Via Dejanews aparece soc.culture.catalunya.
>

Exacto, y como verá esto también ha sido x-posteado allí.

>> Of course the group does not refer to the Country!. The purpose of the
>> group was creating a group for people living in countries with a common
>> Catalan heritage, that is people living in areas in Spain, Italy, France,
>> and Andorra, not restricted to Catalonia.
>>

>> > Si asi fuera deberia haberse llamado soc.culture.CATALUNYA.
>>

>> The reason for the name is clearly exposed before.
>>
>> Mr. Soria, why don't you put your shit together and focus on the real
>> issue: the RATIONALE for the creation of soc.culture.charnego.
>> Soc.culture.catalan is working well, and you can address your concerns
>> about the health of the group anywhere else. Don't you think so?
>>

>> > Tambien expreso la opinion de que la mayoria del trafico tendria que ser
>> > en catalan, con la tolerancia de algun articulo ocasional en castellano.
>>

>> Well, that was the opinion of a person in a given moment. On the other
>> hand Agusti Roig and most of posters have expressed in numerous occasions
>> that messages in Spanish are welcome. Perhaps 1/3 or more of my messages
>> in soc.culture.catalan are in Spanish!.
>>

>> > Por ese motivo expulso a la gente del grupo a la que no consideraba
>> > linguistica o idelogicamente deseable en el grupo.
>>

>> And you are so naive that when somebody tell you to leave a group because
>> of your trolling, you do it... I guess that if in any flame war everybody
>> was reacting like you, the group would be empty in two weeks.
>>
>> Anyway, as clearly exposed in your messages in the thread 'ROBOTITOS A MI'
>> and other threads you decided to abandon soc.culture.catalan because of
>> the proposed moderation of the group, and most of people told you that if
>> you wanted to self-exclude you from the group it was your decision but
>> your posts were welcome if they were not crossposted to tons of irrelevant
>> groups.
>>

>> > Los demas le habeis seguido la corriente y me parece la mar de bien que
>> > haya un grupo dedicado a hablar en una lengua determinada que aparece en
>> > su titulo.
>>

>> Soc.culture.catalan is not for Catalan language. The charter states
>> clearly that it is a group about the Catalan language and the Catalan
>> people in Catalan, Spanish, Occitan, French, English or Italian.
>>

>> > Lo que no me parece nada bien es el bloqueo de crear otro grupo para la
>> > gente de Cataluña de habla castellana.
>>

>> The problems about the creation of the grup in the current terms of the
>> proposal is what we are discusing now. If you want to discus the RFD,
>> fine. If you don't want to, and you are just going to keep on repeating
>> your mantras and whining about boycotts, racism, discrimination and other
>> bullshit... you are going to end up killing all of us of an accute
>> meningitis.
>>
>> [snip... plenty of snipping...]
>>

>> > Lo que no esta bien es que se cancelen los derechos linguisticos de una
>> > comunidad de 3 millones de personas. Eso esta en contra de la Carta de
>> > los Derechos Humanos y es un injusticia. Que alguien intente preservar
>> > el idioma Apache o el de los indios Miskitos (pongo por ejemplo. No
>> > tengo nada en contra de esa gente) me parece feten. Lo que no me
>> > pareceria feten es que cogieran a mis niños y los escolarizaran en
>> > lengua miskita por cojones y en contra de mis deseos. En el mundo hay
>> > miles de idiomas, el la India hay mas de 500, y el intentar preservarlos
>> > no es ninguna razon para desposeer a la gente de sus derechos.
>>

>> Are there 3 milion 'charnegos' and 500 milions indians in Usenet? Wow!
>> That IS impressive... Dr. Soria, perhaps those issues are important on
>> your cloud but they are irrelevant in the discusion of the proposal.
>>
>> [about 70 lines of stuff already repeated in a number of posts deleted]
>>
>> Salut,
>>
>> Jaume
>>
>Así que seguís en San Diego, y en La Jolla. Je Je, la tierra de Manzano.
>
>

>> ---------------------------------------------------------------------------
>> Jaume M. Canaves i Vives ICQ#4740306 "Life is a ___
>> UCSD - Biology (0366) /_\ Y sexually transmitted (0,0)
>> 9500 Gilman Dr. 7 // \\ ( ) 100% lethal < . >
>> La Jolla, California 92093 \\_// \\_// disease" --"-"--
>> ---------------------------------------------------------------------------
>

>-------------------==== Posted via Deja News ====-----------------------
> http://www.dejanews.com/ Search, Read, Post to Usenet

--
Cordialmente desde Quilmes!

Carlos F. Poli, desde Quilmes, Bs. As., Argentina

[Enrique Diaz-Alvarez]

I don't think it is a good idea. A group named soc.culture.castillian
sounds more appropiate to discuss the following things:

a) discussion about Castille (a region encompassing most of central
Spain)

b) discussion about the variety of Spanish spoken in north-central Spain

I doubt anybody who would be interested in discussing charnego issues
would recognize this group as the forum to do so. Another possibility
would be to rename the group as soc.culture.spanish-speaking-catalonia,
or some such thing; it would be clumsy, and soc.culture.charnego would
mean practically the same thing in a much more clear way. Also,
Charnegos come from all over Spain, not just Castille. In fact, the
largest group comes from southern Spain, not from Castille, and they do
not speak the Castillian variety of Spanish. The issues that define the
Charnego community (migration, sense of uprooting, living amidst a
different culture and language, reaction of the native population,
intermarriage, hybrid cultural expressions, bilingual education,
government cultural and linguitic policies, etc.) are not really shared
by the entire Spanish- or Castillian speaking community.

Hope this answers your post.

> Henrietta Thomas
> h...@wwa.com
>
> ---
> Confused by the noise in news.groups? For an in-depth explanation,
> see the Bernstein/McQuitty news.groups FAQ:
> http://www.tezcat.com/~josephb/newsgroups/debate.html

--
Enrique Diaz-Alvarez Office # (607) 255 5034
Electrical Engineering Home # (607) 758 8962
112 Phillips Hall Fax # (607) 255 4565
Cornell University mailto:enr...@ee.cornell.edu
Ithaca, NY 14853 http://peta.ee.cornell.edu/~enrique

[Henrietta Thomas]

In news.groups on Thu, 13 Nov 1997 12:00:21 -0500, Enrique Diaz-Alvarez
<enr...@ee.cornell.edu> wrote:

>Henrietta Thomas wrote:
>>
>> In news.groups on Tue, 11 Nov 1997 16:10:20 -0500, Enrique Diaz-Alvarez
>> <enr...@ee.cornell.edu> wrote:
>>
>> >Jaume M. Canaves wrote:
>>
>> >> A reason to create a soc.culture.charnego would be the existance of such
>> >> cultural discusions either in soc.culture.spain or in soc.culture.catalan.
>> >> But that traffic doesn't exist right now.
>> >
>> >I posted a list of topics other than politics that have been
>> >extensively discussed. Since it was Henrietta Thomas who first brought
>> >this up, I posted this list in reply to her posting. I will now
>> >reproduce it here:

[snip]....

Yes, it does, Mr. Diaz-Alvarez. It helps me to understand some of
the problems in Spain, cultural _and_ political, so that I can try to
think of a way to get you a _serious_ group.

I will not comment on this right now, but take some time to think
and let other people respond to what the two of us have said.

Thanks very much for the clues.

Henrietta
===
Name of the game, ladies and gentlemen, is to communicate with
each other, NOT fighting. ---Erol Keskin, 10-21-97

[Jaume M. Canaves]

On Thu, 13 Nov 1997, Henrietta Thomas wrote:

> In news.groups on Wed, 12 Nov 1997 14:54:54 -0800, "Jaume M. Canaves"

> <jcan...@ucsd.edu> wrote:
>
> >On Tue, 11 Nov 1997, Gurriato Gurriatez wrote:
> >
> >> The RATIONALE for the creation of soc.culture.charnego is chitchatting
> >> about Charnego stuff, capisce?
> >

> >No that's not. That could be part of the 'Charter' but in the 'Rationale'
> >you should explain the reasons for the creation of the group *in Usenet*,
> >and justify the creation of the group.
>
> Complete this paragraph, please:
>
> Catalonia is an autonomous region in Spain where Catalan is the
> official language taught in the public schools. There is a Usenet
> newsgroup, soc.culture.catalan, dedicated to the discussion of
> "the Catalan language and the lands where it is spoken." But all
> Catalonians are not Catalan-speakers. There has been a sizeable
> minority of Castilian-speakers in the region for many years, but
> there is no Usenet newsgroup dedicated to the discussion of their
> Castilian language and culture.

Hi Henrietta,

Of course not all Catalonians are Catalan-speakers. There are also
Spanish-speakers and Aranese-speakers (which contribute to both
soc.culture.catalan and soc.culture.occitan).

But soc.culture.catalan is not limited to Catalonia. The group is
intended as a forum about other regions where there are Catalan
speakers and not only about the Catalan culture but also about the
other cultures existing in those territories. There's a majority
of Italian-speakers in Alger (Sardinia, Italy) and they are wellcome to
participate in their own language if they wish. There's a majority
of French-speakers in the Rossello (Southern France)... and they are
also wellcome to contribute in French. There are people speaking Catalan
in Andorra, Balearic Islands or Valencia. There's also Spanish-speaking
population in the Balearic Islands and Valencia.

The educational situation is *identical* in the Balearic Islands and
in Catalonia, with a single and significative difference: the party in
power at the Catalonian local government is a nationalist party
(Convergence and Union) whereas in the Balearic Islands the party in power
is the PP (Popular Party), a conservative party that also holds the
central Spanish Government. Conservatives in Catalonia use 'immersion' and
'bilingual education' as a tool to attack the nationalist government. In
the Balearic Islands conservatives of the PP are supporting the same kind
of educational policies applied in Catalonia, even with the support of
local nationalists... so there's no reason to use the educational policy
as a political weapon.

I think you have enough elements here to figure out what is going on
here and see that the reason to propose the creation of
soc.culture.charnego is purely political.

Cheers,

Jaume

---------------------------------------------------------------------------

Jaume M. Canaves i Vives ICQ#4740306 "Life is a ___
UCSD - Biology (0366) /_\ Y sexually transmitted (0,0)
9500 Gilman Dr. 7 // \\ ( ) 100% lethal < . >
La Jolla, California 92093 \\_// \\_// disease" --"-"--

---------------------------------------------------------------------------

[Concha]

Leyendo con cierta atención estos escritos en inglés llego a las
siguientes conclusiones:

Un grupo de personas decide solicitar la creación de
soc.culture.charnego, como foro de las personas de habla castellana de
Catalunya.

Otro grupo se opone por razones de tipo formal (no puede ser
soc.culture......, sino ............
Otro grupo se opone por la utilización del nombre "charnego"
Otro grupo se opone por considerar que deben utilizarse los foros ya
existentes.

Otro grupo lo forman los señores Henrietta Thomas, Lynn Diana
Gazis-Max y Russ Albery, representantes de Dios en la tierra y que
parecen tener la posibilidad de decidir (posibilidad que yo no tengo y
que seguramente es el inicio de una nueva etapa feudal en internet).
Estos últimos ponen de manifiesto inconvenientes relacionados con el
volumen de participantes, la utilización política, pero sobre todo
crean un inconveniente que consiste en su total desconocimiento del
catalán, del castellano y de la problemática tratada.

Sugiero una votación sobre la creación o no del grupo
soc.culture.charnego entre los participantes de soc.culture.spain y
soc.culture.catalan (o de cualquier otro grupo o colectivo o...que se
sienta implicado) para poder así pasar olimpicamente de la CENSURA del
poder en la red. Una vez establecido el resultado, por lo menos no
habrá que dar explicaciones.

Adios

Concha.

mequi mequi!!!

[Jaume M. Canaves]

On Thu, 13 Nov 1997, Enrique Diaz-Alvarez wrote:

> I don't think it is a good idea. A group named soc.culture.castillian
> sounds more appropiate to discuss the following things:
>
> a) discussion about Castille (a region encompassing most of central
> Spain)

Following the example of soc.culture.catalan, that group doesn't only
deal with issues related to Catalonia but any land were Catalan is spoken.
A group about Castille would be soc.culture.castille, not
soc.culture.castilian

> b) discussion about the variety of Spanish spoken in north-central Spain

The names of Usenet groups are in English, and according to the Merriam-
Webster Dictionary, one of the meanings of "Castilian" is "the dialect
of Castilia b.: the official and literary language of Spain based on
this dialect". You are partially right, but calling a group soc.culture.
castilian could be a good idea. You could propose the change of
soc.culture.charnego to soc.culture.castilian, or even a
soc.culture.spain.castilian.

> I doubt anybody who would be interested in discussing charnego issues
> would recognize this group as the forum to do so. Another possibility
> would be to rename the group as soc.culture.spanish-speaking-catalonia,

Or soc.culture.catalan.spanish

> or some such thing; it would be clumsy, and soc.culture.charnego would
> mean practically the same thing in a much more clear way. Also,
> Charnegos come from all over Spain, not just Castille. In fact, the
> largest group comes from southern Spain, not from Castille, and they do
> not speak the Castillian variety of Spanish. The issues that define the
> Charnego community (migration, sense of uprooting, living amidst a
> different culture and language, reaction of the native population,
> intermarriage, hybrid cultural expressions, bilingual education,
> government cultural and linguitic policies, etc.) are not really shared
> by the entire Spanish- or Castillian speaking community.

Those are exactly the same issues that define the Spanish-speaking
immigrants from all over Spain in regions with bilingual education
and different cultural backgrounds. The situation in the Balearic
Islands and Catalonia is identical. Same educational and linguistic
policy, same problems, same geographical origins, ... but the
immigrants have never been called 'charnegos' despectively. What
about a soc.culture.spain.immigrant?

In any case I still favor the idea of a talk.politics.catalan, since
all the traffic about those "charnego issues" or "charnego stuff" (in
Dr. Soria's words) have been in discusions about politics.

Cheers,

Jaume

---------------------------------------------------------------------------
Jaume M. Canaves i Vives ICQ#4740306 "Money can't buy love,
UCSD - Biology (0366) /_\ Y but it *can* rent
9500 Gilman Dr. 7 // \\ ( ) a very close
La Jolla, California 92093 \\_// \\_// imitation"
---------------------------------------------------------------------------

[Enrique Diaz-Alvarez]

Russ Allbery wrote:
>
> > You would not count the tremendous number of Charnego related articles

> > in soc.culture.spain.
>
> I have, in fact, been counting those articles, and have specifically
> mentioned that in nearly every post I've made to this thread as evidence
> that a talk.politics.catalan or talk.politics.catalonia newsgroup would be
> entirely appropriate.

You have mentioned nothing of the sort. You said that all the debate in
this RFD in news.groups had revolved around political flamewars. You
didn't say anything about the charnego traffic on soc.culture.spain
until I pointed it out to you. The fact that you insist that all this
traffic is just politics means that either you haven't really examined
the threads in scs or you didn't understand them, probably because, they
are held in Spanish and Catalan. When I gave you a long list of
nonpolitical topics that had been extensively discussed in the RFD
debates, you dismissed it as irrelevant and accused me of making it up.
Incidentally, Ms. Thomas seems to have taken the time to go back and
work through the debates, and has revised her position accordingly.
Perhaps you should do the same, rather than continue to make snide
comments about our supposed inability to read your posts or express
ourselves.

[Eric D. Pierce]

> On Mon, 10 Nov 1997, Gurriato Gurriatez (eso...@unmc.edu) wrote:
> ...

> > Anyway, I am aware that you have to take your decisions based in scanty
> > evidence, and pressed by different social pressures.. I imagine it is
> > difficult for a non Spanish and Catalan speaking person to extricate
> > himself in this complex cultural and linguistic situation of an alien

> > culture. Only the Internet users fluent or semifluent in English had had

> > a chance to participate in this traffic of conversations.

Hey! How about a new group called soc.culture.gringo-charnegos to
discuss
their existence as an oppressed sub-sub-sub-culture since they can't
read
the spanish and catalan posts on usenet and are "forced" to speak
spanish
or catalan when in Catalonia?

EP

[Agusti Roig]

Henrietta Thomas wrote:

I just want to point out some minor details concerning Ms. Thomas
information:

> And that's what I would like for us all to concentrate on. I have a
> copy of the 1995 World Almanac, and tomorrow, I'll post a brief
> history of Spain, which I think might help some of us Anglos get
> a little better perspective. For the moment, let me just say that
> the Almanac lists the following ethnic groups for Spain:
>
> 72.8% Spanish (Castilian, Valencian, Andalusian, Asturian)
> 16.4% Catalan
> 8.2% Galician
> 2.3% Basque

I seriously doubt that "ethnic" is the right word. Maybe it
would be more neutral to talk about "citizens of" Catalonia,
citizens of Basque country..., and citizens of the rest of
the Spain.

> And the languages are: Spanish, Catalan, Galician, and Basque
>
> Now there are already four newsgroups covering the country of
> Spain:
>
> soc.culture.spain
> soc.culture.basque
> soc.culture.catalan
> soc.culture.galiza
>
> Where do the Charnego fit in this picture? I don't have an answer to
> this question. I just want serious people to think about it a bit and stop
> the black helicopter nonsense.

Well, I must say first that I don't agree with the existence of such
group soc.culture.charnego, but I don't have enough reasons to vote NO
(in case the CFV arrives some day). Nevertheless, I think that I can
express my opinion about the place where scch could be.

I think that, after reading the opinions expressed by Viper, Enrique
Diaz-Alvarez and Emilio Soria, the problems they talk about are poli-
tical problems. So, maybe, the group they want to create, should be
in the category talk.politics.* or something like this.

Another possibility, is that soc.culture.charnego should be a subgroup
of soc.culture.catalan., and could be called soc.culture.catalan.charne-
go. Of course, this possibility will offend the proponents, in the same
way it would have offended, probably, the proponents of soc.culture.ca-
talan that our group have been called soc.culture.spain.catalan.

But maybe I can say that Catalan culture and language is not exclusively
concentrated in the Catalan autonomous comunity of Spain, but also in
other spanish comunities and there are also catalan-speakers in France
and Italy (although very few). This is not the case about the supposed
"charnego culture": the proponents are only talking about the spanish-spea-
kers of Catalonia. So they are stricktly a subgroup of the catalan citizens.
(Despite 2 of the 3 proponents live actually in the States.)

Agusti Roig
ro...@ma1.upc.es

[Mario]

Jaume M. Canaves <jcan...@ucsd.edu> escribió en artículo
<Pine.SOL.3.96.971113113509.20777C-100000@biomail>...

> I think you have enough elements here to figure out what is going on

> here and see that the reason to propose the creation of
> soc.culture.charnego is purely political.
>

Everything is politics, Jaume. Of course your interest against the
RFD of soc.culture.charnego seems purely political to me. A lot of
the threads I have been involved in soc.culture.catalan are political
if measured with the ruler you are applying to the subjects proposed for
soc.culture.charnego or attributed to the 'Band of the Three and Only
Charnegos in the Usenet World'.

In soc.culture.catalan the language is just one point of discussion.
We discuss there Economics, Politics, History, regarding the love-hate
relationship between Catalonia and Spain. But if I had to summarize the
traffic in soc.culture.catalan in one word, I would say:
nationalist&anti-nationalist politics, not culture.

Jaume, you have shown here enough of your strategic cleverness -¡and your
spare time ;-) in this discussion. Why don't you show a bit of your 'seny'
and
change your line to support the creation of soc.culture.charnego? In fact,
you
can see this phenomenon as a new Russian Doll. You split
soc.culture.catalan
from soc.culture.spain. They split soc.culture.charnego from
soc.culture.catalan.
It sounds logical to me. And I do not think it could hurt anybody. Perhaps
it will reduce the level of flaming in soc.culture.catalan...

After analysing the RFD and the objections that have been posted in this
thread by
nationalists and neutral people, I have decided to vote yes to the proposal
for a
soc.culture.charnego newsgroup.

Un saludo/Cheers
Mario.

[Gurriato Gurriatez]

Agusti Roig wrote:

> Henrietta Thomas wrote:

Since Mr. Ortiz is on vacation I send this note to soc.culture.catalan
also

>
>
> I just want to point out some minor details concerning Ms. Thomas
> information:
>
> > And that's what I would like for us all to concentrate on. I have a
> > copy of the 1995 World Almanac, and tomorrow, I'll post a brief
> > history of Spain, which I think might help some of us Anglos get
> > a little better perspective. For the moment, let me just say that
> > the Almanac lists the following ethnic groups for Spain:
> >
> > 72.8% Spanish (Castilian, Valencian, Andalusian, Asturian)
> > 16.4% Catalan
> > 8.2% Galician
> > 2.3% Basque

Pancas arnn't going to like the classification of Valencias as Spanish
rather than Catalan

And I know that you (Agusti) are going to resent taht Castilians are
consider "Spanish" and not the Catalan. Not in vain you are known as
"Agustinico Rojigualda"

And it is comical to find that Francisco Franco Bahamonde, the former
dictator, and Manuel Fraga Iribarne, the former leader of the Spanish
right party (who were both Galicians) are not considred "Spanish" by the
World Almanac.

For one reason or another, most Spaniards would disagree with the above
classification. This is the problem of getting your information from the
World Alamanac. Next time use "el Calendario Zaragozano para el Año
Venidero", which include a collection of Spanish Proverbs and the phases
of the moon. (estos guiris....)

>
>
> I seriously doubt that "ethnic" is the right word. Maybe it
> would be more neutral to talk about "citizens of" Catalonia,
> citizens of Basque country..., and citizens of the rest of
> the Spain.

Citizens is not the corrct word. An American citizen of Polish descent (
a real "polaco" :-|) ) can consider himself ethnically Polish and still
be a proud, patriotic American. Ethnicity has nothing to do with
citizenship.

Spaniards have hear the word "ethnic" mostly when listening the news
about Yugoslavia and Bosnia. To some the word has adquired certain nasty
connotoations. Ethnic only means belonging to a particular cultural,
linguistic or racial community.

>
>
> > And the languages are: Spanish, Catalan, Galician, and Basque
> >
> > Now there are already four newsgroups covering the country of
> > Spain:
> >
> > soc.culture.spain
> > soc.culture.basque
> > soc.culture.catalan
> > soc.culture.galiza
> >
> > Where do the Charnego fit in this picture? I don't have an answer to
>
> > this question. I just want serious people to think about it a bit
> and stop
> > the black helicopter nonsense.
>
> Well, I must say first that I don't agree with the existence of such
> group soc.culture.charnego, but I don't have enough reasons to vote NO
>
> (in case the CFV arrives some day). Nevertheless, I think that I can
> express my opinion about the place where scch could be.
>

Now, a private conversation with Agusti in Catalan. Henrietta doens't
need to read it if she doesn't want toAgusti, si s'hagues de votar ara
la soc.culture.charnego, quin seria el sentit del vot catala (inclos el
teu)?

No seria un vot favorable. En aquests moments, hi ha discrepancies
importants que obligarien a introduir modificacions substancials si es
vol el voto afirmatiu dels catalans. A partir d'aqui , nosaltres
intentarem fer el maxim esforç perque aquest grup tingui el maxim de
vots a favor o el minim de vots en contra si els ha de tenir. (Cal que
aprofitem que en Floripondio esta de vacances i aixi obtintrem un vot
negatiu de menys, :-|) )

Hi ha molt de temps per endavant. Despres de la lectura de l'esborrany
de la normativa del grup haura un moment que tots haurem de valorar la
futura normativa, probablement que els proponents harem de fer un ultim
esforç per apropar posicions. Els proponents faran el maxim d'esforç
perque hi hagi el minim de vots en contra del grup. El nostre "ultimate
goal" es aconseguir el vot afirmatiu d' en Sixto (jejeje)

Tots hariem de ser conscients que estem fem una proposta, i una proposta
significa una definicio de principis, dels objectius que volem pel grup.
De vegades es vol arribar a un grau de definicio en alguns aspectes que
es normal llavors que sorgeixin discrepancies.
Nosaltres (els proponents) apostem per una Catalunya bilingüe, amb dues
etnies diferenciades, enfront d'alguns contertulis que advoquen
obertament per una Catalunya monolingüe. Basicament volem que el ciutada
pugui escollir de forma real l'idioma amb el qual es vol relacionar amb
l'Administracio. Catalunya no es Andorra. La situacio social i
linguistica es ben diferent. A diferencia del principat pirinenc
Catalunya te dos idiomes oficials i dues etnies diferenciades. Dins del
futur newsgroup defensarem que la disponibilitat d'escollir la lengua
sigui vigent en els que es public, pero en el que es privat que cadascu
sigui lliure d'empar la llengua que vulgui, sigui castella o catala.
D'alguna forma la proposta del grup estableis diferences entre les
comunitats que viuen a Catalunya. Aixo es un primer reconeixement del
fet diferencial xarnego, una cosa que sembla molestar molt a alguns
contertulis catalans.

> I think that, after reading the opinions expressed by Viper, Enrique
> Diaz-Alvarez and Emilio Soria, the problems they talk about are poli-
> tical problems. So, maybe, the group they want to create, should be
> in the category talk.politics.* or something like this.
>

What an obssesion with the "politics" issue! ( que coñazo, tios). The
only "politics" that are being discussed are the linguistic politics of
the Generalitat towards the Charnego people. This is an IMPORTANT issue
for the Charnego culture and a perfectly legitimate topic of
conversation in a group for the Charnegos. I would imaging that in
soc.culture.kurdish there are a lot of threads about Turkish politics.

Culture has nothing to do with what Mr Russ Albery may think culture is.
He may think of culture as something related to art forms associated
with elites, such as classical forms of literature. music, dancing and
panting.

Sociologically speaking the concept of culture is brodader than that
used in common speech. Here, the term refers to EVERYTHING that is part
of a people's way of life. Politics and economy. Motown as well as
Mozart. Hamburguers as well as gourmet cuisine. Ping pong as well as
polo. Mr. Russ Albery has absolutely no rights to dictate what issues
should be importan in the Charnego world. Let the Charnego decide that
in their conversations in the group.

Culture may be defined as the beliefs, values, behaviour, and material
objects SHARED BY A PARTICULAR PEOPLE. Beliefs and values, particularly
when in conflit with the neighboring culture, result in political
activity. Man is a political animal, you cannot dissociate politics from
culture. This "political" nonsensical issue is a mere excuse to boycott
the project.

Agusti, you also seem to confuse culture with society. CULTURE is a way
of life or a social heritage that certain people have in common. SOCIETY
is the interaction among people within a geographical or political
boundary (which may be guided by one or more cultures living there).
Although the two concepts have different meaning, neither society nor
culture can exist without the other.

Agusti, think of THAT when you propose names for the group. The group
category has the name culture ( and not society) embeded in it.

How did you like the above "mantra:, Agusti? Me he pasao de rosca?

> Another possibility, is that soc.culture.charnego should be a subgroup
>
> of soc.culture.catalan., and could be called
> soc.culture.catalan.charne-
> go. Of course, this possibility will offend the proponents, in the
> same
> way it would have offended, probably, the proponents of
> soc.culture.ca-
> talan that our group have been called soc.culture.spain.catalan.

Should we include the Xurro (Churro in Castilina) etnia of Valencia to
be comprehensive?. This would satisfy the dream of the pancas of the
"Paisos" Empire.

Now seriously: I would have no objections to call the group
soc.culture.catalan.charnego. I think is a cute name.

Again, private conversation with Mr Roig, now in Castilian:
Habra que convencer a Sanmarti para que lo acepte. Ya me lo imagino
yendo al juzgado de guardia a quejarse al señor juez de que Viper anda
sacando los tanques a la calle. A ver que piensa el juez cuando lo vea
con todas las vestiduras desgarradas y tal. La verdad es que hay gente
con gran sentido del drama.

>
>
> But maybe I can say that Catalan culture and language is not
> exclusively
> concentrated in the Catalan autonomous comunity of Spain, but also in
> other spanish comunities and there are also catalan-speakers in France
>
> and Italy (although very few). This is not the case about the supposed
>
> "charnego culture": the proponents are only talking about the
> spanish-spea-
> kers of Catalonia. So they are stricktly a subgroup of the catalan
> citizens.
> (Despite 2 of the 3 proponents live actually in the States.)
>

Buenu, Agustinico, meu fill, un salut cordial i fins
aviat

1001 (Miliu) a.k.a EL COJO MANTECAS and GURRIATO

[Johny Maracas]

On Thu, 13 Nov 1997 23:25:51 GMT, con...@tough.minded.es (Concha)
wrote:

>
>Leyendo con cierta atención estos escritos en inglés llego a las
>siguientes conclusiones:
>

Concha:

You just don't pay attention!

("Que no te enteras...!")

Johny

_ _ _

"Ara -- va afegir --, l'Anticrist és certament a prop perquè cap sa-
viesa no li pot entrebancar el pas." -- Guillem de Baskerville.
Umberto Eco,«El nom de la rosa»

Email to: johny_...@hotmail.com

[Jaume M. Canaves]

On 14 Nov 1997, Mario wrote:

> Jaume M. Canaves <jcan...@ucsd.edu> escribió en artículo
> <Pine.SOL.3.96.971113113509.20777C-100000@biomail>...
>
> > I think you have enough elements here to figure out what is going on
> > here and see that the reason to propose the creation of
> > soc.culture.charnego is purely political.
>
> Everything is politics, Jaume. Of course your interest against the
> RFD of soc.culture.charnego seems purely political to me. A lot of
> the threads I have been involved in soc.culture.catalan are political
> if measured with the ruler you are applying to the subjects proposed for
> soc.culture.charnego or attributed to the 'Band of the Three and Only
> Charnegos in the Usenet World'.

I may have political differences with the proponents, but that doesn't
mean that my criticism with the proposal is solely based on political
ideas. The creation of the group has been purported as a political
statement to vindicate the rights of the 'charnego' people, which is
wrong in the context of Usenet.

I have said several times that I'm not against the creation of a group
to discuss issues of interest to Spanish-speaking Catalan, but following
the right path. If I was sure that there was a real need for the creation
of that group, I would vote yes for it. If the proponents create a mail
list and it proves to have enough traffic to justify the creation of a
group, I would vote yes. But I can't support the initiative of 3 people
to create a group for the simple pleasure of seeing the word charnego
after the word culture.

> In soc.culture.catalan the language is just one point of discussion.
> We discuss there Economics, Politics, History, regarding the love-hate
> relationship between Catalonia and Spain. But if I had to summarize the
> traffic in soc.culture.catalan in one word, I would say:
> nationalist&anti-nationalist politics, not culture.
>
> Jaume, you have shown here enough of your strategic cleverness -¡and your
> spare time ;-) in this discussion. Why don't you show a bit of your 'seny'
> and change your line to support the creation of soc.culture.charnego? In
> fact, you can see this phenomenon as a new Russian Doll. You split
> soc.culture.catalan from soc.culture.spain.

Mario, soc.culture.catalan was not the result of a split from soc.culture.
spain. I already explained in a previous post the process involved in the
creation of soc.culture.catalan. It began as a non-listserv mail-list,
that was tranformed to a listserver mail-list, that was then tranformed in
a group called bit.listserv.catala, and finally when the traffic was big
enough it was proposed the creation of soc.culture.spain.

> They split soc.culture.charnego from soc.culture.catalan.
> It sounds logical to me. And I do not think it could hurt anybody. Perhaps
> it will reduce the level of flaming in soc.culture.catalan...

The creation of a talk.politics.catalan or a talk.politics.'charnego'
would accomplish the same.

> After analysing the RFD and the objections that have been posted in this
> thread by nationalists and neutral people, I have decided to vote yes to
> the proposal for a soc.culture.charnego newsgroup.

And I respect your decision. On the other hand, I would like to suggest
that you read the document "How to write a good RDF proposal" that is
readily available and you'll see what are many of the flaws that are
present in the current RFD and that the proponents keep on failing to
address.

> Un saludo/Cheers
> Mario.

Saludos/Cheers,

Jaume

---------------------------------------------------------------------------
Jaume M. Canaves i Vives ICQ#4740306 "Money can't buy love,

UCSD - Biology (0366) /_\ Y but it *can* rent
9500 Gilman Dr. 7 // \\ ( ) a very close
La Jolla, California 92093 \\_// \\_// imitation"
---------------------------------------------------------------------------

[Jaume M. Canaves]

On Fri, 14 Nov 1997, Jaume M. Canaves wrote:

> On 14 Nov 1997, Mario wrote:
> >
> > Jaume, you have shown here enough of your strategic cleverness -¡and your
> > spare time ;-) in this discussion. Why don't you show a bit of your 'seny'
> > and change your line to support the creation of soc.culture.charnego? In
> > fact, you can see this phenomenon as a new Russian Doll. You split
> > soc.culture.catalan from soc.culture.spain.
>
> Mario, soc.culture.catalan was not the result of a split from soc.culture.
> spain. I already explained in a previous post the process involved in the
> creation of soc.culture.catalan. It began as a non-listserv mail-list,
> that was tranformed to a listserver mail-list, that was then tranformed in
> a group called bit.listserv.catala, and finally when the traffic was big
> enough it was proposed the creation of soc.culture.spain.

^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^

Oopps!! I meant soc.culture.CATALAN... Anyway, don't think I quoted the
previous paragraphs again so I could see again that phrase about my
'strategic cleverness' ;)

Take care,

Jaume

---------------------------------------------------------------------------
Jaume M. Canaves i Vives ICQ#4740306 "Money can't buy love,

UCSD - Biology (0366) /_\ Y but it *can* rent
9500 Gilman Dr. 7 // \\ ( ) a very close
La Jolla, California 92093 \\_// \\_// imitation"
---------------------------------------------------------------------------

[Jaume M. Canaves]

On Fri, 14 Nov 1997, Enrique Diaz-Alvarez wrote:

> Gurriato Gurriatez wrote:
>
> > Now seriously: I would have no objections to call the group
> > soc.culture.catalan.charnego. I think is a cute name.
>

> I think this alternative is acceptable, although I still prefer the
> original soc.culture.charnego; the charter of soc.culture.catalan does
> not mention charnegos at all, so it would seem incongruous to make the
> charnego group its subgroup.

Enrique, you are absolutely right in your conclusion but the reason
is wrong. The charter of SCC does not mention charnegos because it doesn't
focus on the Catalan/Spanish/French/Occitan/Italian-speaking people
living in Catalonia, Balearic Islands, Valencia, etc. Language or culture
are not considered in discriminatory terms, and talking about 'charnegos'
would imply a certain discrimination.

The creation of a subgroup in soc.culture.catalan would be justified only
if the traffic in soc.culture.catalan was so big that a split was
necessary, and even then I don't think that 'ethnicity' should be the
criterion to split the group.

As you and other have said, a lot of the traffic about those so-called
'charnego issues' is generated in soc.culture.spain, so I don't think
using traffic from a group to justify a split in a second group makes
much sense.

Anyway, I still support the creation of a talk.politics.catalan or
a talk.politics.<whatever-you-want-instead-of-charnego>. Also, as
Henrietta suggested, you could give a second thought to the idea of
creating a soc.culture.castilian, a soc.culture.spain.castilian, or
a soc.culture.spain.immigrant

Cheers,

[Henrietta Thomas]

In news.groups on 13 Nov 1997 20:09:22 -0800, Russ Allbery <r...@stanford.edu>
wrote:

>In news.groups, Enrique Diaz-Alvarez <enr...@ee.cornell.edu> writes:
>
>> The fact that you insist that all this traffic is just politics means
>> that either you haven't really examined the threads in scs or you didn't
>> understand them, probably because, they are held in Spanish and Catalan.
>

>Nope. It means that you're either lying or too wrapped up in the
>political flamewar you're enjoying to be honest with yourself. What you
>are saying is inconsistent with what people who do not have a vested
>political interest in this debate are saying, and what I can see with my
>own eyes.

One way to stop a flamewar is to stop reminding people that they are
having a flamewar, and to do your best to change the subject so that
things can move in a more constructive direction. :-)

>> Incidentally, Ms. Thomas seems to have taken the time to go back and
>> work through the debates, and has revised her position accordingly.
>

>Ms. Thomas is in a habit of taking the underdog position in newsgroup
>creation debates, but you'll notice that she still doesn't think you've
>got an appropriate name for your newsgroup.

And that's what I would like for us all to concentrate on. I have a
copy of the 1995 World Almanac, and tomorrow, I'll post a brief
history of Spain, which I think might help some of us Anglos get
a little better perspective. For the moment, let me just say that
the Almanac lists the following ethnic groups for Spain:

72.8% Spanish (Castilian, Valencian, Andalusian, Asturian)
16.4% Catalan
8.2% Galician
2.3% Basque

And the languages are: Spanish, Catalan, Galician, and Basque

Now there are already four newsgroups covering the country of
Spain:

soc.culture.spain
soc.culture.basque
soc.culture.catalan
soc.culture.galiza

Where do the Charnego fit in this picture? I don't have an answer to
this question. I just want serious people to think about it a bit and stop
the black helicopter nonsense.

Followups to news.groups, soc.culture.spain.

[Enrique Diaz-Alvarez]

Gurriato Gurriatez wrote:

> Now seriously: I would have no objections to call the group
> soc.culture.catalan.charnego. I think is a cute name.
>

I think this alternative is acceptable, although I still prefer the

original soc.culture.charnego; the charter of soc.culture.catalan does
not mention charnegos at all, so it would seem incongruous to make the
charnego group its subgroup.

[Concha]

>This sounds like an excellent argument in favor of an es.* newsgroup,
>where the entire discussion could be held in Spanish and where the rules
>may be more to your liking. I'd encourage you to investigate that
>possibility.

Si Bwana.

Adios
Concha.

mequi mequi!!!

[Concha]

>Ah otra cosa Concha : que cuatro gatos mal contados digan que
>representan a la poblacion castellano-hablante de catalunya es tan
>cierto como cuando eta dice representar al pueblo vasco. Es lo mismo,
>pero dudo que lo entiendas, pesa mas la tirria anti-catalana. Os
>importa una mierda convertir catalunya en una especie de bosnia,
>de hecho no parareis hasta conseguirlo. Maldita seas.

Lamento haberle incomodado. En ningún momento he expresado opinión
alguna a favor o en contra de soc.culture.charnego así que deduzco
algún tipo de prejuicio hacia mi que no comprendo.
No acepto su maldición y le ruego la retire.

Adios

Concha.

mequi mequi!!!

[Concha]

>the Almanac lists the following ethnic groups for Spain:
>
>72.8% Spanish (Castilian, Valencian, Andalusian, Asturian)
>16.4% Catalan
> 8.2% Galician
> 2.3% Basque

You are in the wrong way: Spanish is not an ethnic group. Valencian
and Asturian as well as Cantabrics or Andalusian cant be in the same
bag. Dont try to add apples with oranges. Catalan is not an ethnic
group, neither is galician and basque.

The 100% of Spain is a mixed blood race and a mestizo ethnic group.

Thats not the way to find it out.

>And the languages are: Spanish, Catalan, Galician, and Basque

And what about bable, valencian, castuo, chava, and charny?

>Now there are already four newsgroups covering the country of
>Spain:
>
> soc.culture.spain
> soc.culture.basque
> soc.culture.catalan
> soc.culture.galiza
>
>Where do the Charnego fit in this picture? I don't have an answer to
>this question. I just want serious people to think about it a bit and stop
>the black helicopter nonsense.

The charnego fit exactly in in the middle. A mestizo culture, a border
culture, a new culture, a multilingual culture born as the result of
all others previously settled and now increasingly washed up.

Just the same is happening the last 5.000 years.

Ave Caesar, charnegos te salutant.

Concha.

mequi mequi!!!

[Artur Sixto]

con...@tough.minded.es (Concha) writes:

|> >Seria absurd que els que podem legitimament votar NO permetem guanyar
|> >una votacio on la majoria de SIs seran de naturalesa il.legitima.
|>
|> Lo que es ilegítimo es deslegitimar sin motivo. Se tienen contrarios
|> pero no enemigos. Usted solo quiere muertos.

I was advising a disgusted LLuis Martinez not to give up his vote.
(He's against soc.culture.charnego but was talking about not voting.)

Translation:

Artur- It would be absurd that those who can legitimately vote NO
should allow the proponents to win a votation where most of YES
votes won't be legitimate [referring to established Usenet criteria,
since most YES votes are likely to come from political sympathy,
while opposition is against hierarchy and name of group choice].

Concha- What is illegitimate is to unlegitimize without reason.
You should have opponents, not enemies. You only want dead people.

I am so flattered that Concha -whose previous messages I answered
in detail- finally got to such an accurate and simple conclusion:
I have enemies that I want dead. (The charnego people I suppose.)
Bravo.

|> mequi mequi!!!

From MEC (Ministerio de Educacion y Cultura)?
From Mecca?
From me(z)quindad?

Sorry, Concha, but this article of yours is real disappointing
after the efforts you made to contribute some data. You were wise
stopping short from offering interpretations. It's sad to read
what I've just read. Very, very sad.

Artur Sixto

[Henrietta Thomas]

[soc.culture.mexican.american removed from newsgroups line]

In news.groups on Fri, 14 Nov 1997 17:13:48 -0800, "Jaume M. Canaves"
<jcan...@ucsd.edu> wrote:

>On Fri, 14 Nov 1997, Enrique Diaz-Alvarez wrote:
>
>> Gurriato Gurriatez wrote:
>>

>> > Now seriously: I would have no objections to call the group
>> > soc.culture.catalan.charnego. I think is a cute name.
>>

>> I think this alternative is acceptable, although I still prefer the
>> original soc.culture.charnego; the charter of soc.culture.catalan does
>> not mention charnegos at all, so it would seem incongruous to make the
>> charnego group its subgroup.
>

>Enrique, you are absolutely right in your conclusion but the reason
>is wrong. The charter of SCC does not mention charnegos because it doesn't
>focus on the Catalan/Spanish/French/Occitan/Italian-speaking people
>living in Catalonia, Balearic Islands, Valencia, etc. Language or culture
>are not considered in discriminatory terms, and talking about 'charnegos'
>would imply a certain discrimination.

And that, I understand, is because soc.culture.catalan is about a language,
not a place. What is really needed, IMO, is a newsgroup to talk about a
place - Catalonia - which would then have a subgroup to talk about a
particular people who live in that place and (for want of a better word)
call themselves Charnego. This leads me to:

soc.culture.catalonia
soc.culture.catalonia.charnego

What do you think?

Henrietta

[Henrietta Thomas]

In news.groups on Thu, 13 Nov 1997 11:59:06 -0800, "Jaume M. Canaves"
<jcan...@ucsd.edu> wrote:

[snip]....

>But soc.culture.catalan is not limited to Catalonia.

I think that is part of the problem. There needs to be a group
for Catalonia before we can have a group for Charnegos in
Catalonia.

>The group is
>intended as a forum about other regions where there are Catalan
>speakers and not only about the Catalan culture but also about the
>other cultures existing in those territories. There's a majority
>of Italian-speakers in Alger (Sardinia, Italy) and they are wellcome to
>participate in their own language if they wish. There's a majority
>of French-speakers in the Rossello (Southern France)... and they are
>also wellcome to contribute in French. There are people speaking Catalan
>in Andorra, Balearic Islands or Valencia. There's also Spanish-speaking

>population in the Balearic Islands and Valencia.

This apparently leaves the Spanish-speaking Charnegos out in the
cold. Having never been a part of the Catalan heritage, they are a
little out of place in soc.culture.catalan. They can speak in Spanish
if they want, I guess, but only if they want to discuss Catalan language
and culture. Their own language and culture would be off-topic there.
Feel free to correct me if I'm wrong.

>The educational situation is *identical* in the Balearic Islands and
>in Catalonia, with a single and significative difference: the party in
>power at the Catalonian local government is a nationalist party
>(Convergence and Union) whereas in the Balearic Islands the party in
>power is the PP (Popular Party), a conservative party that also holds
> the central Spanish Government. Conservatives in Catalonia use
>'immersion' and 'bilingual education' as a tool to attack the nationalist
>government. In the Balearic Islands conservatives of the PP are
>supporting the same kind of educational policies applied in Catalonia,
>even with the support of local nationalists... so there's no reason to use
>the educational policy as a political weapon.

It would appear to me that the governments in both regions are doing
exactly that -- using the educational policy as a political weapon to
promote the interests of their own linguistic group. Judging by the
description of Catalonian history in another thread, it appears that
this kind of stuff has been going on for quite some time - centuries,
in fact. The winner of each war gets to impose its own language
and culture on the losers.

>I think you have enough elements here to figure out what is going on
>here and see that the reason to propose the creation of
>soc.culture.charnego is purely political.

Initially, yes, I would agree. Especially after learning that the
RFD was posted to "political" and "current-events" groups
in Spain. But I think we can turn it around and get ourselves
a "cultural" proposal if we put our minds to it.

In another thread, I have suggested:

soc.culture.catalonia (for the place)
soc.culture.catalonia.charnego (for the people)

What do you think?

Henrietta

[Henrietta Thomas]

In news.groups on Fri, 14 Nov 1997 12:03:42 -0800, Gurriato Gurriatez
<eso...@unmc.edu> wrote:

[snip]....

>Sociologically speaking the concept of culture is brodader than that
>used in common speech. Here, the term refers to EVERYTHING that is part
>of a people's way of life. Politics and economy. Motown as well as
>Mozart. Hamburguers as well as gourmet cuisine. Ping pong as well as
>polo. Mr. Russ Albery has absolutely no rights to dictate what issues
>should be importan in the Charnego world. Let the Charnego decide that
>in their conversations in the group.
>
>Culture may be defined as the beliefs, values, behaviour, and material
>objects SHARED BY A PARTICULAR PEOPLE. Beliefs and values, particularly
>when in conflit with the neighboring culture, result in political
>activity. Man is a political animal, you cannot dissociate politics from
>culture. This "political" nonsensical issue is a mere excuse to boycott
>the project.

I do not think Mr. Allbery is trying to "boycott the project." I think he is
trying to prevent the word "culture" being used to promote a purely
political objective. I agree with Mr. Allbery on that point. A culture group
should focus more on culture than on politics. This does not mean
that you never talk politics in soc.culture groups; it only means that
politics is not the main event.

[snip].....

>Now seriously: I would have no objections to call the group
>soc.culture.catalan.charnego. I think is a cute name.

I am seriously suggesting the creation of two groups:

soc.culture.catalonia (for the place)
soc.culture.catalonia.charnego (for the people)

What do you think? Would you be a proponent?

[Juanjo Sanmartín]

Henrietta Thomas <h...@wwa.com> escribió en artículo
<346d176d...@news.wwa.com>...

> I am seriously suggesting the creation of two groups:
>
> soc.culture.catalonia (for the place)

OK, and soc.culture.balears, and soc.culture.valencia, and one ofr each
country were speaking catalan?. Seriously, soc.culture.catalan receive
inputs from all catalan countries and even (sometimes subduely) from
anticatalan (not only anticatalanist) people living out of Catalonia, like
most of defending of the S.C.Ch. group.

> soc.culture.catalonia.charnego (for the people)
>

In 34 years a lived in Catalonia, i've heard and readed the word "charnego"
less times than the last week, and the proponent (the presumed delinquent
Viper) is the first, I repeat the first person I know who is proud to name
himself "charnego", the first who calls (who insults) his companions,
neighbors, teachers, etc. born in Catalonia or catalan speakers, like
"polakos" (this is very, really too much, frequent in Spain but out of the
catalan countries) , and finally the first who calls (who insults) his
companions, neighbors, etc. with spanish roots (catalan or castilian
speakers), like "Charnegos".
Remember or inquire yourself seriously, the "charnego" is not a people, the
"polako" is not a people, the "bastard" is not a people, the "motherfucker"
is not a people, etc..

> What do you think? Would you be a proponent?
>
> Henrietta
> ===
> Name of the game, ladies and gentlemen, is to communicate with
> each other, NOT fighting. ---Erol Keskin, 10-21-97
>

That's clear what i think about, Mrs. Henrietta? Please don't fall into the
trap of the heiress (even unvoluntary) of the persecutors of the catalan
language and culture, still minorised.

Sincerely, a catalan with spanish roots and castilian speaker but, above
all proudly catalan, like most of the "famous" 3 million people like me.

Juanjo Sanmartín

P.S.: Please, stop soon this pitiful matter. Sorry for my poor english.

[Artur Sixto]

NAME ALTERNATIVES TO S.C.CHARNEGO SO FAR

Jaume M Canaves:

talk.politics.catalan
talk.politics.<whatever-you-want-instead-of-charnego>.

Russ Allbery

|>talk.politics.charnego would probably work too, although some
|>people apparently are insulted enough by the term that choosing
|>another may be wise.

Henrietta Thomas:

soc.culture.catalonia (for the place)
soc.culture.catalonia.charnego (for the people)

`Sinner':

alt.politics.*
alt.misc.flames.catalonia-and-argentina
alt.flame.catalonia
alt.talk.politics.catalonia

1) I think an alt.poltics.* or a talk.politics.* group would be
allright. I disagree with the soc.culture hierarchy for reasons
that I've been on and on about. Basically: `charnego' doesn't
define a culture, and neither does it to be a spanish speaker
(coming from different places and being 400 million worldwide).

2) I disagree completely with a soc.culture.catalonia because:
^^^^^^^^^
-there's never been any demand for that group
-people are very keen to share a group between all catalan
speakers since the issues they face in the territories
sharing this language are intimately interrelated. For example,
the `charnego' issue is replicated in Valencia where the terms
`blavero' and `pancas' kind of substitute (politically) for
`charnego' and `polako'. That's why the group was named after
the language and not after regional boundaries.
-the creation of s.c.catalonia would be very detrimental
to s.c.catalan. It would either divert people at random
from the sister group, or it would be a clone of it.
-it would be confusing: people wanting to know about
Catalan culture would wonder which way to go.
-the traffic in s.c.catalan is far too low for a split
to be advantageuos rather than damaging.

3) Regarding the word `charnego', it's just unacceptable to me.
Charnego is a taboo word in Catalonia. It's understood by
most people to be an insult and it's just unthinkable that
a newsgroup can be called like that (except maybe in some
alt.outrageous.charnego form that nobody is interested in).

For the same set of reasons I think A. Roig's proposal of
soc.culture.catalan.charnego -being basically equivalent
to the original proposal- is just as unacceptable. It would
split soc.culture.catalan and incorporate an impossible word.

I suggest:

talk.politics.spain.languages
talk.politics.spain.bilingualism
talk.politics.catalan.countries
talk.politics.catalonia.bilingualism

But to be honest, the reasonable thing would be to let this
frenzy cool down and see what people want to have after
s.c.catalan's robomoderation is implemented. (That is, to
postpone the whole RFD/CFV procedure until then.)

This robomoderation is what prompted the proponents to
launch an s.c.ch. group thinking they would be prevented
from participating in s.c.catalan. (?) When robomoderation
is implemented they will come back to s.c.catalan after
a while and participate the same way catalan speakers are
now participating in s.c.s. and s.c.c. keeping the threads
separate. Either they will do that, I predict, or they'll
just loose interest in the whole affair and stay only in
s.c.s., or won't lose interest but will discuss in s.c.s.
the `charnego' issue (forgetting completely about the
creation of a specific group for that).

Artur Sixto

[Lynn Diana Gazis]

Artur Sixto (as1...@cus.cam.ac.uk) wrote:
: NAME ALTERNATIVES TO S.C.CHARNEGO SO FAR

: Jaume M Canaves:

: talk.politics.catalan
: talk.politics.<whatever-you-want-instead-of-charnego>.

: Russ Allbery

: |>talk.politics.charnego would probably work too, although some
: |>people apparently are insulted enough by the term that choosing
: |>another may be wise.

: Henrietta Thomas:

: soc.culture.catalonia (for the place)
: soc.culture.catalonia.charnego (for the people)

talk.politics seems to fit the traffic best, but I'll add to the
soc.culture suggestions:

soc.culture.castilian (for the language)
soc.culture.castilian.catalonia (subdividing the language by place)

This splits soc.culture.catalan less than creating a
soc.culture.catalonia, since it only pulls off traffic specific to
castilian-speakers in Catalonia.

I suspect that removing the word "charnego" from the name and lightly
robomoderating the group to eliminate crossposts might reduce the number
of NO votes on this group.

Lynn Gazis-Sax

[FMM]

On Sat, 15 Nov 1997 21:53:36 +0100
in <64l30i$t3q$2...@talia.mad.ibernet.es>
"Miguel Angel" <ma...@iies.es> wrote:

| Ms. Thomas, if you accept an advice, try with a better Almanac. Excepts for
| the Basks [snip]
<
Well, if you ask me, try at least an Almanac that has Basques and not
Basks. (Talk about *not* knowing the groups in your own country...)

FM de Monasterio

> [for spambots]
-- root@localhost
-- abuse@localhost
-- rep.m...@mail.house.gov

[Gurriato Gurriatez]

Henrietta Thomas wrote:

> In news.groups on Sat, 15 Nov 1997 21:53:36 +0100, "Miguel Angel"
> <ma...@iies.es>
> wrote:
>
> [snip].....
>
> Thanks for revealing the inadequacies of my Almanac. Other people
> have said similar things. (Note: These Almanacs are all written by
> Westerners, who often have no real knowledge of the countries they
> write about, and they apply Western terms - which may or may not
> be appropriate).
>
> Thanks also for reminding me about soc.culture.asturies. It is indeed
>
> a soc.culture.* group related to the country of Spain. So that makes
> five altogether, and if we ever get a proposal going here, I intend to
>
> ask that the RFD be posted to all five groups.
>
> >The Charnego term, an old derogatory one to refer to the Spanish
> speaking
> >immigrants to Catalonia, fits with the Spanish terms Moro (Moorish),
> Sudaca
> >(South-American) and with the French “Métèque”. Charnego especially
> well
> >fits with the second: Sudaca. And just for your information, there
> are
> >several associations in Spain, formed of South-Americans that have
> assumed
> >the tem Sudaca to refer to themselves, changing the derogatory
> meaning of
> >the term, into a positive one. And that is what I suppose that Mr.
> Viper
> >wants to do with a new group called soc.culture.charnego. Because I
> >understand things in this way, I support the creation of such group,
> the
> >same as I would support the creation of a Sudaca, or Moro group if
> such
> >groups were proposed with a similar aim.

Moro (Moor) is not a derogatory term. For instance, Mauritania means
land of the Moors.The Muslims of The Philippines call themselves Moros.
There was a Moro Liberation Front fighting for independence.

This is an example of a perfectly neutral word, Moro, used by some in a
derogatory way

Charnego is another such word .

This is not the case with Sudaka, which was a humorous deformation of
the word "sudamericano" with the use of the suffix "aka" which, together
with the suffix "ata" made many a word in the "Cheli" slang often used
by marihuana smokers ("fumatas") It is generally only mildly teasing,
although I imaging somebody can make it really insulting depending on
the context. Besides, Sudaka has a correct alternative: "Sudamericano".
Charnego doesn't have any synonims, unles using clumsy circumloquia
filling an entire page: "Immigrant to Catalonia who speaks bla, bla,
bla....."

Not long ago Juanjo Sanmartin made some wild and preposterous
accusations to Viper as being some sort of outlaw or criminal, proposing
a general insurrection in the country and advicing the Charnegos to
violently overthrow the government or something.
I found the whole thing quite comical, to say the truth. Mr Sanmartin
has always made such great and cute shows of being shocked! But this
last one has been simply hysterical :-)))))))))))))) !!!!!!!!! These
nationalists do not know what to invent any more to impress the
"gringos" (just kidding, no derogatory intention meant here)

We have asked once and again: if this people are not called Charnegos,
what are they called then? No answer, or may be "they are not called
anything because they do not exist" Some Catalan nationalists are
frustated abort the presence of an independent minded minority (which is
in reality a numerical majority) and react in the ostrich way, sticking
their heads in the sand: THEY DO NO EXIST, THEY DO NOT HAVE A NAME .

Please, be aware that these ideas are nothing but a trick to destroy the
project. Some eve said that the word Charnego was similar to the word
"nigger: the ultimate ethnic slur. Please read the anecdote published in
the newspapers of the newsman asking the archbishop is he was a
Charnego. Can you imagine a newsman asking a Black archbishop:"Sir, are
you a nigger?"

Sincerely

GURRIATO GURRIATEZ

>
>
> Thank you very much, Miguel Angel, for helping me to learn more
> about the word "charnego." Now I have another question: In another
> thread, someone said the word is banned. Do you know if this is
> true? If so, do you know if it was banned by law?
>
> Slowly but surely, we are going to get all the pieces of this
> puzzle......
>
> Henrietta Thomas
> Chicago, Illinois, USA
> h...@wwa.com
> ---
> Confused by the noise in news.groups? For an in-depth explanation,
> see the Bernstein/McQuitty news.groups FAQ:
> http://www.tezcat.com/~josephb/newsgroups/debate.html

[Mario]

Jaume M. Canaves <jcan...@ucsd.edu> escribió en artículo

<Pine.SOL.3.96.971114172409.4408E-100000@biomail>...

But, Jaume, if you admit the creation of a group called
talk.politics.'charnego'
because it is supposed to carry more political than cultural posts, I could
say then that soc.culture.catalan is also ill-defined because it's full of
Politics
and Economics and History.

Cheers/saludos

[Henrietta Thomas]

In news.groups on Sat, 15 Nov 1997 21:53:36 +0100, "Miguel Angel" <ma...@iies.es>
wrote:

[snip].....

Thanks for revealing the inadequacies of my Almanac. Other people
have said similar things. (Note: These Almanacs are all written by
Westerners, who often have no real knowledge of the countries they
write about, and they apply Western terms - which may or may not
be appropriate).

Thanks also for reminding me about soc.culture.asturies. It is indeed
a soc.culture.* group related to the country of Spain. So that makes
five altogether, and if we ever get a proposal going here, I intend to
ask that the RFD be posted to all five groups.

>The Charnego term, an old derogatory one to refer to the Spanish speaking
>immigrants to Catalonia, fits with the Spanish terms Moro (Moorish), Sudaca
>(South-American) and with the French “Métèque”. Charnego especially well
>fits with the second: Sudaca. And just for your information, there are
>several associations in Spain, formed of South-Americans that have assumed
>the tem Sudaca to refer to themselves, changing the derogatory meaning of
>the term, into a positive one. And that is what I suppose that Mr. Viper
>wants to do with a new group called soc.culture.charnego. Because I
>understand things in this way, I support the creation of such group, the
>same as I would support the creation of a Sudaca, or Moro group if such
>groups were proposed with a similar aim.

Thank you very much, Miguel Angel, for helping me to learn more

[Miguel Angel]

FMM escribió en mensaje <346e1c56...@207.172.3.56>...

>"Miguel Angel" <ma...@iies.es> wrote:
>
>
> | Ms. Thomas, if you accept an advice, try with a better Almanac. Excepts
for
> | the Basks [snip]
><
>Well, if you ask me, try at least an Almanac that has Basques and not
>Basks. (Talk about *not* knowing the groups in your own country...)
>
>FM de Monasterio
>

For sure you can teach me English, Mr. Monasterio, but I doubt if I have too
much to learn about my own contry from a spell checker like you (perhaps
merely the English translation of some names, not to much in fact)

In Spanish: no coja el rábano por las hojas.

[Henrietta Thomas]

In news.groups on 15 Nov 1997 11:10:37 GMT, "Juanjo Sanmartín"
<ain...@hotmail.com> wrote:

[snip]....

>In 34 years a lived in Catalonia, i've heard and readed the word "charnego"
>less times than the last week, and the proponent (the presumed delinquent
>Viper) is the first, I repeat the first person I know who is proud to name
>himself "charnego", the first who calls (who insults) his companions,
>neighbors, teachers, etc. born in Catalonia or catalan speakers, like
>"polakos" (this is very, really too much, frequent in Spain but out of the
>catalan countries) , and finally the first who calls (who insults) his
>companions, neighbors, etc. with spanish roots (catalan or castilian
>speakers), like "Charnegos".
>Remember or inquire yourself seriously, the "charnego" is not a people, the
>"polako" is not a people, the "bastard" is not a people, the "motherfucker"
>is not a people, etc..

[snip].....

>P.S.: Please, stop soon this pitiful matter. Sorry for my poor english.

Nothing wrong with your English. We will wrap this thing up just as
soon as we possibly can.

And do not worry about me getting caught in a trap. The more I
learn about a situation, the better I am able to deal with it. And I
have learned a great deal by discussing the pros and cons of
this proposal.

[Concha]

>I am so flattered that Concha -whose previous messages I answered
>in detail- finally got to such an accurate and simple conclusion:
>I have enemies that I want dead. (The charnego people I suppose.)
>Bravo.

You are not flattered, you are flattened por la extremada necesidad de
concordar los propios deseos con la realidad. La solución es fácil: se
niega toda evidencia y de paso se acusa al interlocutor (y mucho mejor
poniendo en su boca palabras nunca dichas). Al principio lo imaginé
producto algún problema de comprensión lectora, pero ahora ya lo
achaco a una evidente mala fe.

. It's sad to read
>what I've just read. Very, very sad.

Lo que es triste es que una persona aparentemente capacitada no pueda
ser objetivo. Ni siquiera lo intente.

Si quieres, puedes decir la última palabra-. No mereces respuesta.
Adios
Concha.

mequi mequi!!!

[Johny Maracas]

On Sat, 15 Nov 1997 00:17:44 GMT, con...@tough.minded.es (Concha)
wrote:

>
>>And the languages are: Spanish, Catalan, Galician, and Basque
>
>And what about bable, valencian, castuo, chava, and charny?
>

Do you know the difference between language and dialect? I
think you're not a qualified philologist to make those statements,are
you?

>Ave Caesar, charnegos te salutant.

Ave!

>Concha.

>mequi mequi!!!
(mequi = Me qui vult? )

Ignosce mihi,sed timeo ne velit nemo te.

Johny

_ _ _

"Quod licet,ingratum est; quod non licet,acrius urit."
P.Ovidius Naso,«Amores» II,19,3.

Email to: johny_...@hotmail.com

[Miguel Angel]

Henrietta Thomas wrote:
>
>[snip].....

>Thank you very much, Miguel Angel, for helping me to learn more
>about the word "charnego." Now I have another question: In another
>thread, someone said the word is banned. Do you know if this is
>true? If so, do you know if it was banned by law?
>
>Slowly but surely, we are going to get all the pieces of this puzzle......
>

Hello again Ms. Thomas

The Spanish law is not so detailed to ban a single word. I suppose that like
in almost any other country, it is the social usage that determines the
inadequacy of a term to refer to some people. When in a trial someone claims
to be offended by a word that he considers to be derogatory for him, the
judge have to decide based on its social usage, to this purpose almost
official Dictionaries, like the one of the Spanish Academy can help, but
they do not give the last word.

And what I suppose is quite clear is that no judge will consider derogatory
a term used for someone to refer to himself. So if Mr. Viper, proponent of
the RFD wants to be included in a group called “charnego” there is no judge
or law in Spain to ban this.

Let me add another comment on the term charnego. The opposite “polaco” is
sometimes used to refer to the Catalan-speaking population of Catalonia. It
can be people that considers this term (polaco) derogatory, and perhaps that
was the truth in the past. Recently, a prestigious Catalan writer: Vázquez
Montalbán entitled one of his last books with the title “Un polaco en la
corte del Rey Juan Carlos” (A “polaco” in Juan Carlos King’s Court”)
referring to himself as polaco. Just to illustrate, once more, how social
usage changes with time, and derogatory terms of the past are proudly used
for the people to whom the former offending terms were addressed.
I hope this help to clarify a little bit the point.

Miguel Angel
ma...@iies.es

P.S. I did not translate “polaco” as Pole because the joke behind this term
(how difficult is to understand polish for a Spaniard) could not be shared
with Poles.

[Miguel Angel]

Gurriato Gurriatez escribió:

[snip]

I almost fully agree with your comments Mr. Gurriatez, but I would like to
clarify just one point. In this thread I tried to show to Ms. Thomas just
how the meaning of initially derogatory terms change to the point they are
assumed with a new, possitive meaning, by people who suffered them in the
past. This is, from my point of view, the case with charnego. Mr. Mario in a
sepparate thread has shown current possitive usages of the term charnego,
what illustrates my possition.

The example of "sudaca", slang for South-American, I thought could be
helpful because its change of usage. Or perhaps the "métèque" of Moustaki
can serve as an example of a former derogatory term that changes to a
possitive one.

But there are some additional terms that have changed. As you quite well
know, the term "rojo" (red) was used by fascists in Spain in a derogatory
usage, to the point that you could complain to a judge for being called that
(supposed that you were not). Nowadays there are people that proudly claim
to be "rojo" (not to many but there are), and no judge will condemn anyone
for calling "rojo" to a neighbour. Things change and words evolve with them.

The same, in my oppinion, applies to charnego.

Un cordial saludo.

Miguel Angel

ma...@iies.es

[Johny Maracas]

On 15 Nov 1997 05:46:45 GMT, as1...@cus.cam.ac.uk (Artur Sixto)
wrote:

>
>|> mequi mequi!!!
>
>From MEC (Ministerio de Educacion y Cultura)?
>From Mecca?
>From me(z)quindad?
>

Eureka! I've found it! It's Latin: ME QUI [VULT] [?]:
"Who wants me ?" :-D

Johny

_ _ _

"Yes, I too can love." -- Count Dracula
Bram Stoker,«Dracula»

Email to: johny_...@hotmail.com

[Artur Sixto]

[subject was: Re: Your opinion is important, Agusti.
(sobre soc.culture.charnego)]

h...@wwa.com (Henrietta Thomas) writes:

|> Thank you very much, Miguel Angel, for helping me to learn more
|> about the word "charnego." Now I have another question: In another
|> thread, someone said the word is banned. Do you know if this is
|> true? If so, do you know if it was banned by law?

I'd like to nuance Miguel Angel's information.

`Charnego' doesn't equate with `meteque' in french or `sudaca' in
spanish. I used the word `sudaca' for years not suspecting any
derogatory connotations. I got quite surprised to learn that some
people considered the word derogatory, particularly the latinamericans
in Spain. Since then, I've avoided the word.

`Charnego' is a word banned from language, but not by law! It's just
a social convention and matter of good sense. Since the word acquired
strong derogatory connotations, everybody started to avoid it except
the odd xenophobe insulting some immigrant.

To give you an example, I might still sometimes use the word `sudaca'
(to which I never attributed derogatory connotations) but I could
never, ever, use the word `charnego' neither in public nor on my own,
because it offends me. Not that the word could ever apply to me,
because I am catalan speaking and both my parents are catalan speaking
and descended from catalans. The word offends me because I can't help
associating it with the stupid xenophobes and racists that made it
into an insult decades ago.

It's been like that for decades and though I travel to Catalonia
several times a year, I've failed to detect any changes regarding
the word. I am unaware of any new fashion to recycle that word into
a group thing. From the reactions seen in soc.culture.catalan, from
spanish and catalan speakers alike, there is no such change and the
word is as offensive as it has been for decades.

People swearing the opposite are just those supporting the creation
of the newsgroup because they can't find a better word they say. They
are though, perfectly aware of the offensiveness of the word whatever
they say, to the point that I believe it's part of their reasons to
chose it. They pretend they want to `epater le bourgeois' (despite
being very much bourgeois themselves) but the pleasure comes more
from offending the catalan people than anything else. Another reason
is just political: trying to create something by putting a name on
it. Trying to turn a very heterogeneous mass of spanish speakers in
Catalonia, or part of that mass, into a community buying the `charnego'
propaganda and allowing itself to be used politically against catalan
parties and governmental policies. Viper has proudly defined himself
the whole thing in s.c.spain as agitprop. He kind of pictures himself
on some virtual barricade (very safely though).

You will find from time to time -unfrequently- the word `charnego'
used without insulting purposes, but it's rare. It's usually in
printed text, either journalistic or books when referring (directly
or not) to the historical context in which the word became an insult.
In these rare cases, it's not that the word has lost any derogatory
meaning: it's because it points to a situation of the past or a
situation in which other people might have used the word (derogatorily).
E. Diaz-Alvarez provided an example of that, recently, trying to `prove'
the normal use of the word. In a follow-up I explained already that
the journalist didn't use that word innocently. It's a policy in the
El Pais and other newspapers based in Madrid to present the situation
in Catalonia as one where catalan nationalism goes to far. Using the
word charnego in that interview was transparently intended to convey
to readers the notion that this kind of treatment is common in Catalo-
nia. The intention was that, and it made the journalist use `charnego'
despite the context being wrong: nobody would ever have applied the
word to an ecclesiastic, and much less to a bishop.

Anyway. You will never hear the word `charnego'. If you happened to,
it would be on a rare occasion and as an insult.

It's amazing that we should almost present a thesis on this subject
to substantiate here what everyone knows in the streets in my country.
E. Soria, Viper and colleagues imposed on everybody their polako/charnego
terminology in their threads in s.c.spain and s.c.catalan and that's
all. They have even inadvertently implied its offensiveness when they
say that `polako' is an insult that goes together with `charnego' as
opposites.

The word is an insult and I will oppose any newsgroup with that name,
in any hierarchy.

Artur Sixto

[Gurriato Gurriatez]

Miguel Angel wrote:

> I almost fully agree with your comments Mr. Gurriatez, but I would
> like to
> clarify just one point. In this thread I tried to show to Ms. Thomas
> just
> how the meaning of initially derogatory terms change to the point they
> are
> assumed with a new, possitive meaning, by people who suffered them in
> the
> past. This is, from my point of view, the case with charnego. Mr.
> Mario in a
> sepparate thread has shown current possitive usages of the term
> charnego,
> what illustrates my possition.
>

Picking a name for a newly created newsgroup is a lot licke picking one
for a baby: You want one that sounds good, one most people won't make
fun of and -most important- one everyone can agree on.

But instead of getting just mum, dad and maybe the grandparents to like
it, group proponents have it a little tougher. They need a name that the
entire world is happy with. That's not always easy, because it seems
everyone has an opinion. Just ask people in soc.culture.spain and
soc.culture.catalan about the Charnego group. There's no doubt that the
naming of the group is the toughest part to its approval. Both
Catalonians and Charnegos take the naming seriously. Community identity
is at stake. It is a matter of PRIDE

I believe that when Charnego people embrace the term "Charnego pride"
they mean more than they are unembarrassed by their language and
culture. They mean that to be Charnego is no disgrace, but an honor. Not
just the absence of shame, but delight and assertiveness in valuing an
ethnic designation that has long been stigmatized in Catalonia.

There is an important virtue in this assertion of the value of the
Charnego way of life. It combats something still eminently in need of
challenge: the assumption that because of their language and culture
Charnego people are stupid, francoist, "un-european", low, and that
because of their language Catalonian speaking people are smart,
developped, european, righteous.

Prejudice and discrimination persist in Catalonian society because they
are mutually reinforcing: Stereotypes become very real to those who
believe them, thus a category of people may become what they are defined
to be. By labeling a minority negatively and then acting accordingly,
people make their definition of the situation real in its consequences.
By considreing their culture an inferior product that has to be
erradicated may lead Catalonians to withhold equal access to jobs,
income, education, and political rights. Already an intensive propaganda
campaign has taken place indicating that "immersion" is meant to provide
better chances to kids to obtain a better job. This has became a self
fulfilled prophecy. As a matter of fact, the cultural and linguistic red
tape of the Catalonian government has caused the loss of thousands of
jobs for theCharnegos. While immersion policies do no produce innate
inferiority, it produces social inferiority , constraining many
Charnegos to poverty, low-prestige occupations, and poor housing in
Catalonia.

Catalonian tolerance to the cultural and linguistic diversity that does
occur is limited. The social movement to make Catalan the only official
language of the country is hardly encouragement of pluralism.The
movement is litle more than a backlash against ther rising percentage of
Charnegos in the population. It is an expression of xenophobia. Those
who would force everybody to speak Catalan are simply trying to stamp
out cultural systems on everyone

To some Americans, the idea of designating Catalan as the only official
language of Catalonia may seem an unnecessary law, even a bit silly
-after all, doesn't virtually everybody speak Catalan there? The
answer, in a word, is NO. In fact virtually everybody is fully fluent in
Spanish, but only half the population can converse in Catalan in an
adequate level. Making fluency in Catalanan a condition sine qua non for
high level jobs is de facto discriminating to more than half the
population. Converting the language of a numerical minority in an elite
status symbol is the worse form of discrimination that can be done in a
country.

Language -in a sense, our cultural heritage in coded form- is the most
important mean of cultural transmission, the process by which culture is
passed from one generation to the next. In certain ways, humans beings
may appear to be prisoners of culture, just as other animals are
prisoners of biology. Over millions of years of human evolution, the
evolution of languager and culture gradually took our species out of a
world shaped largely by biology into a world we shape extensively for
ourselves. The more we discover about the operation of our culture, the
greater will be our ability to use the freedom it offers to us.

Sincerely

GURRIATO GURRIATEZ

[Gurriato Gurriatez]

Robert Kaplan wrote:

> I actually went and looked at all the travel guides on Catalonia (here
> in
> Texas).
>
> The ones that mention the word xarnego (or charnego) ALL indicate it
> is
> derogatory.
>
> Salu2,
>
> Pinko
>

I don't think Texan travel guides, checked out by an Argentinian, should
be an important criterium to name the group.

Pinko, for Christ's sake, you don't know what you are talking about.
Don't trivialize the issue.

GURRIATO GURRATEZ

(Ademas, nunca fuiste a mirar las guias, embusterazo, que te conozco. A
ti lo que te gusta es andar metiendo baza en todas las conversaciones,
sin saber de que coños va la cosa. Cosmopolita que es el compadrito...
Fiktor Part Deux.)

[Gurriato Gurriatez]

Artur Sixto wrote:

> Gurriato Gurriatez <eso...@unmc.edu> writes:
>
> |> > Mr. Soria, why don't you put your shit together and focus on the
> real
> |> > issue: the RATIONALE for the creation of soc.culture.charnego.
> |> > Soc.culture.catalan is working well, and you can address your
> concerns
> |> > about the health of the group anywhere else. Don't you think so?
> |>
> |> Chaumita de misentrañas, I dont put shit together or separate. I
> don't
> |> play with shit since age 1. I don't expect to play with shit until
> I'll
> |> be ninety or so.Then I'll be drawing four bars with it on the walls
> of
>
> ^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^
> |> the nursing home (recuerdos a Guifredo el Peludo, jejeje)
> ^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^
>
> The `four bars' (= 4 stripes) that E. Soria `Gurriato' will be drawing
>
> with shit on the walls refer the catalan flag, which is known as the
> `four bars flag'. This is the kind of subtle humour that E. Soria and
> his friends are inflicting all the time on soc.culture.catalan.
>
> `Recuerdos a Guifredo el Peludo' means `regards to Wilfred the Hairy'
> and refers to Guifre el Pilos, the founder of the catalan royal
> dinasty
> or House of Barcelona. It reigned in Catalonia from the 9th til the
> 15th
> century (one of the longest lasting dinasties in the world). The guy
> is
> considered the `father of the country' and is legendarily attributed
> the
> creation of the catalan flag. He is just an historical guy associated
> with symbology and legends in Catalonia. That's what E. Soria craps
> on,
> and on and on and on.
>
> E. Soria suffers from an infantile psychological condition know as
> encopresis: crapping around on purpose, in despite.
>
> [I won't answer the rest of his 216 lines. Haven't got enough bleach.]
>
> Artur Sixto
>
> ps: I am against saluting flags, etc, and against severe fines and
> imprisonment for people who burn flags. I am not even against
> E. Soria crapping on the catalan flag. It's only that he always
> craps on the same one, and it gets more and more _boring_.

Yeah, must be very boring to follow me around all day long, reading all
I write, reviewing the archives for my old articles, clipping excerpts
of them.....hoping to give me un bon cop de falç.

> Mr. Soria, if was the nurse looking after you, I would have you
> drawing those four bars with shit 1000 times all over the wall.

Sixto, I am NOT running for office. There is no need of your
investigations.

Sixto investigates everything about the proponents of groups nowdays.
Sixto and his friends really like to dig up dirt. You want a newsgroup
and they hold up X-rays of yor chilhood.
Did you read about the video of the tycoon with the "lady" from
Equatorial Guinea? The judge has given an orden not to show any more
pictures in the paper "YA".
Everybody has an skeleton in their closet. The Catalan nationalists keep
hoping it's in there fooling around with another skeleton. If you have a
skeleton in your closet, Playboy and Penthouse will run nude photos of
it in next month's issue. Jejeje, You make me feel like one of these TV
evangelists

Too bad the dirt wasn't that good. Cave paintings in the nursing home
walls when I'll be ninety, in response to Jaume's advice to "put your
shit together".

You have MANY skeletons in your closet, querido Samicro. You remind me
of one when you mentioned those nurses taking care of me. Do you
remember when you said that you liked to go to parties dressed as a
nurse and show your tities to excite people. I could dig the story for
your reading pleasure, if you insist...Remember, els Charnegos tambe
esmolem ben be les eines.

Que tremoli l'enemic!!!!

By the way, do you know which part of my anatomy I call Wifredo el
Peludo (Wilfred the Hairy)?

How do you call yours, Pepino el Breve?

Saludos afectuosos

Gurriato Gurriatez

[Gurriato Gurriatez]

Artur Sixto wrote:

> E. Soria wrote:
>
> |> > I left not because I was told to.
> ^^^^^^
>
> You've been claiming that you were expelled
> from s.c.catalan, so it's good that you start
> recognizing that you just decided to leave.
>
> |> > I left because I was
> extremelly
> |> > annoyed by a chanting of piruli-pirula-piruli-pirula that went on
> for
> |> > days whenever I tried to post a message there. The rest of the
> group
> |> > thought that this was very funny and encouraged this behaviour.
> |> > Piruli-pirula-piruli isn't my kind of mantras. I find them
> boring.
>
> This is false.
>
> First, you left.
> Then, you started cross-posting any sort of garbage to s.c.catalan.
> Then, we asked you politely many times to stop it.
> Then, I posted follow-ups to s.c.spain leaving your garbage intact
> and adding the line going `piruli-pirula'.
> Then, you calmed down. (After a few `follow-up and reply' to be
> precise.)
> And now, you change things to justify the creation of a goup.
>
> Artur Sixto

Artur, you have been annoying everybody for days with this nonsense.
Please cut it off.

You were not participating in the newsgroups for one year or so because
you were not connected

Then you returned and your firsts contributions were these stupid
piruli-pirula notes to anyone writtiong in Spanish to
soc.culture.catalan.

No one had asked me anything, politely or otherwise.

Several people stopped participating in the group because of the
nuisance of the piruli-pirula that went on for days.

You are only trying to perpetuate the image that the creation of
soc.culture.charnego is some sort of flame war

This is the last of your notes I will answer in news.groups. If you want
ot talk to me I'll be is soc.culture.spain

Sincerely

GURRIATO GURRIATEZ

[Viper]

Juanjo Sanmartín wrote:

> and the proponent (the presumed delinquent Viper) is the first,

^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^

I would like to ask Mr. Allbery or whoever, what I am supposed to do when
you're submitted to this stream of insults and personal vexations.

I DON'T LIKE SANMARTINES. I PREFER SANFERMINES.

PLEASE, STOP YOUR B.S.

Sanmartí, mamón, que te parta un rayo.

--

+-------------------------------------+
| Viper |
+-------------------------------------+
| mmar...@alu-etsetb.upc.es |
| Polytechnic University of Catalonia |
| Barcelona, Spain. |
+-------------------------------------+-+
| Votad/Voteu SI a soc.culture.charnego |
+-------------------------------------+-+

[Viper]

Henrietta Thomas wrote:

> Now there are already four newsgroups covering the country of
> Spain:
>
> soc.culture.spain
> soc.culture.basque
> soc.culture.catalan
> soc.culture.galiza

Excuse me, Ms. Thomas, but you forgot soc.culture.asturias.

[Artur Sixto]

[ subject was `Re: Your opinion is important, Agusti. Was:
Me meto donde no me llaman (sobre soc.culture.charnego)' ]

Gurriato Gurriatez <eso...@unmc.edu> writes:

|> Artur, con cierta razon, llamo la atencion al hecho de que el grupo se
|> llama soc.culture.CATALAN, refiriendose al idioma, no al pais.Si asi
|> fuera deberia haberse llamado soc.culture.CATALUNYA.
|> Tambien expreso la opinion de que la mayoria del trafico tendria que ser
|> en catalan, con la tolerancia de algun articulo ocasional en castellano.

This is true. (But it's not a matter of tolerance. It was a recommendation
to users that can write in catalan and answer people who can read catalan.)

|> Por ese motivo expulso a la gente del grupo a la que no consideraba
|> linguistica o idelogicamente deseable en el grupo. Los demas le habeis

This is false. No one expelled anybody from s.c.catalan: you left.
(Besides, it's impossible to expell anyone from an unmoderated group.)

|> seguido la corriente y me parece la mar de bien que haya un grupo
|> dedicado a hablar en una lengua determinada que aparece en su titulo.
|> Lo que no me parece nada bien es el bloqueo de crear otro grupo para la
|> gente de Cataluña de habla castellana.

This also is false. We are not against a group for people to have
flame wars in spanish about Catalonia. We are against such a group
being a soc.culture one, and above all, against calling it `charnego'.

|> Tu pareces ser el unico que no esta al tanto del proyecto de
|> erradicacion del castellano mediante el metodo de cambiar la lengua
|> materna de los niños antes de que tengan uso de razon.^^^^^^^^^^^^^
|> ^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^
|> Jaume Canaves en mas de una ocasion nos ha restregado este asunto por
|> los güevos con bastante pitorreo. La fecha que dio de plazo me para
|> completar el proceso creo que eran 25 años.
^^^^^^^
That was Jaume's mistake. In fact he meant 2.5 years, but in his
big hurry he forgot the point. :-))

|> El resto del polakerio esta perfectamente al tanto de este asunto. Sin
|> embargo no quieren que el asunto trascienda mas de lo necesario, para
|> que el proceso se pueda completar sin escandalos y sin demasiadas
|> protestas.

Oh, yes. We keep it secret. :-)) :-)) La conspiration du silence.

I'll keep silent about the rest of your 178 lines long article.

Artur Sixto

[Artur Sixto]

Gurriato Gurriatez <eso...@unmc.edu> writes:

Artur Sixto

[Artur Sixto]

[Artur Sixto]

"Jaume M. Canaves" <jcan...@ucsd.edu> writes:

|> So, the other members of the group that don't support your political
|> points of view are "The Pack". How do you expect any respect from other
|> people if you called them 'traitors', 'fags', 'polakos', 'a pack', etc.
|> And when one of them instead of taking your bragging seriusly goes and
|> tells you 'piruli piruli' you go berserk.

T'was `piru-piru-piru-piruli piruli, piru-piru-piru-piruli pirula'.
I think he went mad because he couldn't sing it.

|> > However, if you dare to bring the issue of the relationship with the 3
|> > millions of their countrymen who speak Spanish, they became hostile as
|> > hell, and they chase you out of it (piruli-pirula) Spanish is not
|> > consider a "proper" language (llengua propia) in Catalonia.
|>
|> Dr. Soria, all you have complained about is a puntual argument in which
|> somebody was making fun on you saying 'piruli pirula'. You look quite
|> obsessed with that 'piruli pirula'.

We are quite a few doctors around offering to help him actually.
Dr Soria shouldn't be treating himself. (It doesn't seem to work
anyway.)

Regarding his paragraph, it's the catalan Statute of Autonomy which
states officially something as obvious as catalan being `la llengua
propia de Catalunya', i.e. Catalonia's `own' or autochtonous
language. E. Soria implies that we catalan speakers react to the
spanish language as something `improper'. This is another clever lie.
Saying that Catalonia has its proper (=own) language doesn't mean
other languages are considered or treated as improper.

Artur Sixto

[Lynn Diana Gazis]

: Concha wrote:

: > ...

: > Otro grupo lo forman los se=F1ores Henrietta Thomas, Lynn Diana
: > Gazis-Max y Russ Albery, representantes de Dios en la tierra y que

Oops! I saw the bit about representing God on earth, and skipped past
this post as a flame, but, looking below, I see a possible serious
misunderstanding of the process.

: > parecen tener la posibilidad de decidir (posibilidad que yo no tengo y
: > que seguramente es el inicio de una nueva etapa feudal en internet).

It is not in fact true that the three of us have a power of decision that
the rest of you don't. Russ Allbery is, along with David Lawrence,
involved in moderating news.announce.newgroups, so he *does* get a say in
what RFDs and CFVs are posted. But that say is, almost always, to post
regardless of disagreement, and he has, by posting the RFD and indicating
that he will post any CFV, shown that he is *not* going to exercise that
power against this proposal.

Henrietta Thomas and I each have a vote, the same as anyone else. We've
both been on news.groups for a while, and have some knowledge about the
process, precedents with previous groups, and so on. In this regard, I
also want to distinguish between the rules which you *must* follow to get
a new group (e.g., an RFD which is not posted to news.announce.newgroups
is not a valid RFD, and will not result in a vote or group creation), and
the customs which help a new group along by making people less likely to
vote no (e.g. it is customary to answer questions about how much traffic
currently exists on a topic, and where the traffic for a new newsgroup is
likely to come from).

It is, indeed, to the advantage of the proponents to make enough changes
to this proposal that at least *some* no votes get changed to abstain
votes, since each no vote, from any source, must be countered by two yes
votes for the group to win. Possible changes include changes to the name
of the group, demonstrating traffic by setting up a mailing list first
(this one would take some time and therefore involve delaying the group),
or robomoderating the group against crossposts.

Lynn Gazis-Sax

[Viper]

Juanjo Sanmartín wrote:

> and the proponent (the presumed delinquent Viper) is the first,
^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^

I would like to ask Mr. Allbery or whoever, what I am supposed to do when
you're submitted to this stream of insults and personal vexations.

I DON'T LIKE SANMARTINES. I PREFER SANFERMINES.

PLEASE, STOP YOUR B.S.

Sanmartí, mamón, que te parta un rayo.

[Gurriato Gurriatez]

Lynn Diana Gazis wrote:

I would like to resolve this issues once for all by requesting a
straight answer from the proponents of the group and other people
interested in creating it

DO YOU WANT

1) Change the name to soc.culture.catalan.charnego or something similar

2) Robomoderation of the group against crossposting

3) Delay of the date to have time to obtan a mailing list first

My answer to all three questions is YES. I would like to see other
people's opinions.

The only thing I would not compromise is that I want the word "charnego"
appearing in the name, even if several other words are added. Please,
don't let these questions linger for too long. We need an answer and
proceed with the business

Sincerely

GURRIATO GURRIATEZ

[Jaume M. Canaves]

On Sat, 15 Nov 1997, Henrietta Thomas wrote:

>Jaume Canaves wrote:
>
> >The group is
> >intended as a forum about other regions where there are Catalan
> >speakers and not only about the Catalan culture but also about the
> >other cultures existing in those territories. There's a majority
> >of Italian-speakers in Alger (Sardinia, Italy) and they are wellcome to
> >participate in their own language if they wish. There's a majority
> >of French-speakers in the Rossello (Southern France)... and they are
> >also wellcome to contribute in French. There are people speaking Catalan
> >in Andorra, Balearic Islands or Valencia. There's also Spanish-speaking
> >population in the Balearic Islands and Valencia.
>
> This apparently leaves the Spanish-speaking Charnegos out in the
> cold.

I don't see how.

> Having never been a part of the Catalan heritage, they are a
> little out of place in soc.culture.catalan.

The proponents are trying to sell the idea of 'charnego' culture as
being a mixed Catalan/Spanish culture, so they are in the right place
to talk about the issues that they think appropriate.

> They can speak in Spanish if they want, I guess, but only if they want
> to discuss Catalan language and culture. Their own language and culture
> would be off-topic there. Feel free to correct me if I'm wrong.

Anybody can discuss anything related to the *cultures*, people,
politics if they consider that of interest. Since Spanish-speaking
catalans (not the same as 'charnego') are living there, their issues
are an appropriate topic.

> >The educational situation is *identical* in the Balearic Islands and
> >in Catalonia, with a single and significative difference: the party in
> >power at the Catalonian local government is a nationalist party
> >(Convergence and Union) whereas in the Balearic Islands the party in
> >power is the PP (Popular Party), a conservative party that also holds
> > the central Spanish Government. Conservatives in Catalonia use
> >'immersion' and 'bilingual education' as a tool to attack the nationalist
> >government. In the Balearic Islands conservatives of the PP are
> >supporting the same kind of educational policies applied in Catalonia,
> >even with the support of local nationalists... so there's no reason to use
> >the educational policy as a political weapon.
>
> It would appear to me that the governments in both regions are doing
> exactly that -- using the educational policy as a political weapon to
> promote the interests of their own linguistic group.
> Judging by the
> description of Catalonian history in another thread, it appears that
> this kind of stuff has been going on for quite some time - centuries,
> in fact. The winner of each war gets to impose its own language
> and culture on the losers.

People living in Catalonia, Balearic Islands and Valencia have been the
losers in all those wars, so the impositions has always been by the
Spanish-speaking part. The imposition of language and culture has been
one-sided.

What we have now is that the party that has the power in the central
government has also the power in the local govenmnent of the Baleric
Islands, and a nationalist part in Catalonia. The laws about use of
language at school are IDENTICAL in Catalonia and the Balearic Islands,
but the central government ONLY attacks those policies in Catalonia.
Do you understand it now?

We are not talking about educational issues, we are talking about
politics. It is not the educational issue what is under attack, it
is the party that supports those policies. And that is what underlies
all this discusion and the creation of the group. Why do you think
there are so many references about "Catalan nationalists" in the messages
of the proponents and their supporters?.

> >I think you have enough elements here to figure out what is going on
> >here and see that the reason to propose the creation of
> >soc.culture.charnego is purely political.
>
> Initially, yes, I would agree. Especially after learning that the
> RFD was posted to "political" and "current-events" groups
> in Spain. But I think we can turn it around and get ourselves
> a "cultural" proposal if we put our minds to it.

Of course, it could be transformed into a cultural proposal, and I have
said several times that I would support the creation of a group if I
have the guarantee that it is created by cultural reasons and not as a
political instrument.

> In another thread, I have suggested:
>
> soc.culture.catalonia (for the place)
> soc.culture.catalonia.charnego (for the people)
>
> What do you think?

Given the current situation that would be calling for more trouble...

I guess the best way to solve this situation would be for the proponents
to create a mail list, have it working for a few months and then show that
they have the traffic and it is not only a political traffic. If the
traffic is only politic like now, I would support the creation of a
talk.politics.catalan. If the traffic was also cultural I would not have
any problem with the creation of a group in the soc.culture.* hierarchy.

Even in that situation and considering the attitude of the proponents and
their behavior in soc.culture.catalan I doubt they would get any sympathy
in soc.culture.catalan. If they could pen a proposal with more guarantees
that group is not going to be a flame-war heaven and find a proponent that
was not unnacceptable for the people in soc.culture.catalan, their
proposal would not have so much opposition. Even more, if they could get
the support of 'charnegos' that are currently opposed to this proposal
like Antonio Ortiz and Juanjo Sanmartin, and a proponent like Miguel Angel
that has always kept a educated like of discusion in soc.culture.catalan
and has not resorted to trolling and insulting Catalan-speakers, I have
no doubt they would have no problem whatsoever.

Cheers,

Jaume

---------------------------------------------------------------------------
Jaume M. Canaves i Vives ICQ#4740306 "Money can't buy love,
UCSD - Biology (0366) /_\ Y but it *can* rent
9500 Gilman Dr. 7 // \\ ( ) a very close
La Jolla, California 92093 \\_// \\_// imitation"
---------------------------------------------------------------------------

[Gurriato Gurriatez]

Jaume M. Canaves wrote:

> On Mon, 17 Nov 1997, Viper wrote:
>
> > Juanjo Sanmartín wrote:
> >
> > > and the proponent (the presumed delinquent Viper) is the first,
> > ^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^
> > I would like to ask Mr. Allbery or whoever, what I am supposed to
> do when
> > you're submitted to this stream of insults and personal vexations.
>

> You have two options. Either you can ignore them, or you can say:

>
> > Sanmartí, mamón, que te parta un rayo.
>

> "Sanmartin, cocksucker, get hit by a bolt"
>
> which indeed is a very mature attitude, isn't it, Mr. Proponent?
>
>

I am quite mature, and still get quite angry at people calling me in
earnest a "presumed delinquent".

I have my own set of epithets for such people.

Incidentally, "mamon" means "sucker", not "cocksuker", and "que te
parta un rayo' es the Spanish equivalent to "go fly a kite"

Please, Jaume, you know how to translate better than that. Stop difaming
Mr. Viper. These sleezy OJ's lawyer tricks will get you nowhere.

EL COJO MANTECAS

[Gurriato Gurriatez]

Jaume M. Canaves:

> And here that troll says that the is going to raise another troll to
> the
> position of General of the National Catalan Army and other bullshit.
> The
> only thing I see in this text is that a troll that defends the
> genocide
> in Croatia and Bosnia, also supports de fascists of the Vlaamse Blok
> and
> uses "Catalonian betrayer", 'communist', "hispano"... and "charnego"
> in
> a derogatory context.
>
> Is that what you wanted to show, Emilio? Did you want to clearly show
> that fascists love to use the word 'charnego' as a derogatory word?
>

Exactly. The only ones using the term as an insult are the wacos.

Communist have the right to have a newsgroup. I see nothing wrong with a
group for hispanic issues.
Charnegos do have a right to a newsgroup too.

The word is not important. What it is important is the "animus
iunuriandi", the intention to insult.

You guys are overusing the definition of Charnego in the Dictionario of
the Spanish Royal Academy. This may impress the American readers, not
the Spanish ones. As everybody knows in Spain, the members of the
Academy are a group of conservative old farts, who meet once in a blue
moon to wellcome some new words into the language. When the words are
finally accepted they may have been in common usage for fiftey years or
more.

Probably the wor "charnego" entered the Diccionary in the 20's or so,
when the word was still derogatory. These terms are never reviewed once
they enter the diccionary. We know the social realities of the 90's and
the word is no longer derogatory. Everybody uses it.

It is also comical an Argentinian (Pinko), who wants to participate in
all conversations whether or not he knows what is going on, making an
statement that he has made a survey of Travel guides in Texas!!!
(Jejeje, estos argentinos son la repera)

GURRIATO GURRIATEZ

---------------------------------------------------------------
Que aproveche la inmersion,
para tus hijos si,
para los mios no.
---------------------------------------------------------------

[Enrique Diaz-Alvarez]

D...@netcom.com> <34708EDB...@unmc.edu>
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Xref: cornellcs news.groups:335012 soc.culture.spain:174488 soc.culture.catalan:19593

Gurriato Gurriatez wrote:
>
> I would like to resolve this issues once for all by requesting a
> straight answer from the proponents of the group and other people
> interested in creating it
>
> DO YOU WANT
>
> 1) Change the name to soc.culture.catalan.charnego or something similar
>
> 2) Robomoderation of the group against crossposting
>
> 3) Delay of the date to have time to obtan a mailing list first
>

I agree with the robomoderation proposal. I believe Mr. Allbery and Ms.
Gazis have already indicated that this change would be enough for them
to drop their opposition to the group (if this is not the case, please
correct me). I would rather not change the name of the group to
soc.culture.catalan.charnego, for the reasons I explained earlier in the
thread.

I would like to hear from all those who previously intended to vote
against the group (other than those who oppose it for political reasons,
of course) whether or not robomoderation would be enough to rethink
their vote. Thanks.

>
> GURRIATO GURRIATEZ

--
Enrique Diaz-Alvarez Office # (607) 255 5034
Electrical Engineering Home # (607) 758 8962
112 Phillips Hall Fax # (607) 255 4565
Cornell University mailto:enr...@ee.cornell.edu
Ithaca, NY 14853 http://peta.ee.cornell.edu/~enrique

[Robert Kaplan]

Gurriato Gurriatez <eso...@unmc.edu> wrote in article
<3470CDF1...@unmc.edu>...

>
> It is also comical an Argentinian (Pinko), who wants to participate in
> all conversations whether or not he knows what is going on, making an
> statement that he has made a survey of Travel guides in Texas!!!
> (Jejeje, estos argentinos son la repera)

FYI, babalu, travel guides are updated frequently (yearly, or at most every
other year). That's why I went there to see if there were any references.
Those folks have been to Catalonia more recently than myself (for sure) and
you (probably). If they say do not use xarnego in Barcelona because it is
derogatory, of if they say don't leave your bags unattended in Lima if you
ever want to see them again, I listen. Also, needless to say, they have no
ax to grind. They are not Pujolistas or want to insult the Peruvians, Just
the facts, m'am.

BTW, I only read El Pais very infrequently, but the spaniards in the group
can for sure tell us: how often does El Pais use the word "charnego"?

Salu2,

Pinko

[Gurriato Gurriatez]

Robert Kaplan wrote:

> Gurriato Gurriatez <eso...@unmc.edu> wrote in article
> <3470CDF1...@unmc.edu>...
> >
> > It is also comical an Argentinian (Pinko), who wants to participate
> in
> > all conversations whether or not he knows what is going on, making
> an
> > statement that he has made a survey of Travel guides in Texas!!!
> > (Jejeje, estos argentinos son la repera)
>
> FYI, babalu, travel guides are updated frequently (yearly, or at most
> every
> other year). That's why I went there to see if there were any
> references.
> Those folks have been to Catalonia more recently than myself (for
> sure) and
> you (probably). If they say do not use xarnego in Barcelona because it
> is
> derogatory, of if they say don't leave your bags unattended in Lima if
> you
> ever want to see them again, I listen. Also, needless to say, they
> have no
> ax to grind. They are not Pujolistas or want to insult the Peruvians,
> Just
> the facts, m'am.
>

Pinko: I don't believe you. To begin with you've never been in
Catalonia. EVER!

Please give me the references of the travel guides.

Title, publisher and year of publication. Chapter and page. I'll check
the references myself

(Pinko, mientes como bellaco y ademas eres una cotilla que siempre se
mete en camisas de once varas. Si no te conociera.....)

> BTW, I only read El Pais very infrequently, but the spaniards in the
> group
> can for sure tell us: how often does El Pais use the word "charnego"?

You should make like Fiktor Harebalo and keep yourself very well
informed about current important events in Spain. Read the newspapers
more often instead of getting your information from Texan travel guides.

> Salu2,
>
> Pinko

I força al canut

GURRIATO GURRIATEZ

[Jaume M. Canaves]

On Mon, 17 Nov 1997, Jaume M. Canaves wrote:

> extend or adapt the robomoderacion policy that is being proposed for
> soc.culture.catala to guarantee that there will bo censorship?. I mean,
^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^
Sh*t!!! This keyboard is acting funny again. Where it says "will bo", it
should say "will bE No".

[Jaume M. Canaves]

On Mon, 17 Nov 1997, Gurriato Gurriatez wrote:

> Exactly. The only ones using the term as an insult are the wacos.

You can not generalize with just one example. The fact that wacos
use that word doesn't mean that it only has a derogatory meaning
for them.

> Communist have the right to have a newsgroup. I see nothing wrong with a
> group for hispanic issues. Charnegos do have a right to a newsgroup too.

Emilio, I thing Russ already explained all that about the "rights" in
Usenet...

> The word is not important. What it is important is the "animus
> iunuriandi", the intention to insult.

Well, maybe the word in not important for you, but people that could
be included in that denomination like Antonio or Juanjo don't seem to
be very happy about the use of that word... So we have here two groups
of 'charnegos', one that love the use of the word, and another one that
hates the use of that word. And both groups are separated along
political and ideological lines. If the group is going to be a group
for all 'charnegos' I think you should solve that question unless you
try to create a group with a name that is only acceptable by part of
those 'charnegos'. If part of the 'charnegos' imposes a name despised
by other 'charnegos' what you are having is a group supporting some
political/ideological point of view, which I think would not be compatible
with the concept of a soc.culture.* group. On the other hand, if you
choose to ignore the opinion of the 'charnegos' that oppose the creation
of the group, the proposal would be okay for a talk.politics group...

What I'm saying is that you guys should create a consensus between your
positions and the positions of all the 'charnegos' that have been opposing
the creation of the group. The group should be created by a consensus
between the 'charnegos', and not by a faction refusing to accept any
change in the charter, calling names to the 'dissidents', and seeking
outside support to impose their idea of how the group should be. That
kind of partisan approach has little to do with the idea of culture, and
a lot with politics.

I don't think asking for some understanding about the criticisms of
people like Antonio, Juanjo and others and trying to create a proposal
for a soc.culture.* that can be accepted by everybody is asking for
something impossible. Or perhaps it is?.

> You guys are overusing the definition of Charnego in the Dictionario of
> the Spanish Royal Academy. This may impress the American readers, not
> the Spanish ones. As everybody knows in Spain, the members of the
> Academy are a group of conservative old farts, who meet once in a blue
> moon to wellcome some new words into the language. When the words are
> finally accepted they may have been in common usage for fiftey years or
> more.

Emilio, it is not impressing, it is just telling our side of the story.
You say that 'charnego' is not derogatory, and you are partially right.
I say that 'charnego' is also derogatory, and I'm also partially right.

I guess we could say that SOME 'charnegos' feel okay calling themselves
'charnegos' but ALL 'charnegos' don't like being called 'charnego' by
a 'non-charnego'. Does that sound better?

Cheers,

Jaume

ps.: So, are you begining to see the light at the end of the tunnel? (J/K)

[Pakete]

Enrique Diaz-Alvarez <enr...@ee.cornell.edu> wrote:

I agree too with the proposal of robomoderating the charnego group

[mi...@tough.minded.es]

> O sea, que como no te gusta como estan marchando las cosas, al
> carajo con las normas y procedimientos. Nos montamos una votacion en
> nuestro cortijo particular y asi solo votaran los que a ti te de la
> gana. =BFNo?

Te pierde el deseo. Yo estoy contra un sistema que no he podido
escoger: por antidemocrático y por establecer reglas cercanas al
colonialismo cultural.

Y si eso supone impedir que esas personas que discrepan
> (y que ademas, segun tu, tienen capacidad de decidir) puedan votar,
> pues mucho mejor. Todos esos votos negativos que te ahorras. =
>
No me ahorro nada. Una votación implica a todos los interesados ¿si no
fuera así para qué hacerla? Tu ves demasiados fantasmas, pero lo que
es seguro es que vives del momio y todo te parece bien ¿no?

> Alguno pensara que, en cierta forma, eso no deja de ser un tipo de
> censura. Y no le faltara, creo yo, algo de razon...

La censura consiste en reivindicar la igualdad? Extraña cosa. Yo
quiero tratar los temas en pie de igualdad y no "teniendo que
convencer" a quien no conozco ni sé porqué está ahí.

En definitiva, estoy contra el sistema cerrado. ¿Tu estás a favor?

Un saludo

Milú the Goss
Milú the Goss

[Artur Sixto]

Agusti Roig <agu...@txati.upc.es> writes:

|> > a little better perspective. For the moment, let me just say that
|> > the Almanac lists the following ethnic groups for Spain:
|> >
|> > 72.8% Spanish (Castilian, Valencian, Andalusian, Asturian)
|> > 16.4% Catalan
|> > 8.2% Galician
|> > 2.3% Basque
|>
|> I seriously doubt that "ethnic" is the right word. Maybe it
|> would be more neutral to talk about "citizens of" Catalonia,
|> citizens of Basque country..., and citizens of the rest of
|> the Spain.

I agree with him for a different reason. There's no point for
me in `neutralizing' and watering down realities. There are
different such ethnic realities in Spain but they overlap their
respective political boundaries and that's the problem (as usual).

The main ethnic groups are those Henrietta listed, but there
are others. Regarding those listed in her Almanac, some precsions
need be made. The percentages given correspond more or less to the
populations inhabiting the territories that are mentioned. But...
catalan ethnicity encompasses most of the Valencian region, a small
part of Aragon and the Balearic Islands. Some of the people in
Catalonia that are counted as ethnic catalans would reject it and
would regard themselves as ethnically spanish or something else.

|> > And the languages are: Spanish, Catalan, Galician, and Basque

and bable (Asturias), and leonese (Leon), and occitan (Val d'Aran),
and aragonese (Aragon), and portuguese (in some border areas). Most
of them will likely die out during the next century though.
Portuguese and Galician are considered by many experts to be the same
language (galaico-portuguese).

The basic thing is, the castilian/spanish ethnic group became central
and dominant since the middle ages. Since its origins in the XVIIc.
the spanish state was entirely in castilian/spanish hands. The attempt
was to follow the french example and transform Spain in an homogeneous
castilian speaking country. The attempt was largely unsuccessful until
this century and the different realms remained very much independent
up until the early XVIIIc. The first monarch to officialy hold the
Crown of Spain was Isabel II, Queen of Spain, in the early XIXc.

Artur Sixto

[Viper]

Russ Allbery wrote:

>
> Hell, talk.politics.charnego would probably work too, although some people
> apparently are insulted enough by the term that choosing another may be
> wise.

Maybe. But inaccurate towards charnegos. If charnegos like the term, I
don't see the reason why we have to change the name of OUR group (although
I'm aware that "property" in Usenet is a pretty strange concept). In any
case, it's up to them. If 'polakos' or whoever feel disturbed or insulted
by the name, it's not OUR worry.

Cheers,

[Jose Manuel Dieguez Perez]

mi...@tough.minded.es wrote:

> Te pierde el deseo. Yo estoy contra un sistema que no he podido

> escoger: por antidemocr=E1tico y por establecer reglas cercanas al
> colonialismo cultural.

Estaras contra el sistema, pero, eso si, intentando aprovecharte
de todas las ventajas que pertenecer al sistema tiene. Nada te
impide montarte tu grupito de intercambio de dolientes mensajes
con la gente que quieras, pero tu quieres un grupo como Dios
manda, con la difusion que Usenet, ... permiten. Pero eso si,
montandotelo como a ti te de la gana. Pues eso, me temo, no es
muy coherente.

> No me ahorro nada. Una votaci=F3n implica a todos los interesados =BFsi=
no
> fuera as=ED para qu=E9 hacerla? Tu ves demasiados fantasmas, pero lo qu=
e
> es seguro es que vives del momio y todo te parece bien =BFno?

Uno: una votacion implica a los interesados. Pero tu no eres
quien para decidir quien esta interesado y quien no (ergo, quien
puede votar y quien no, quien puede participar en la discusion
y quien no, ...).

Dos: Yo no vivo del momio. Vivo de mi trabajo. Y no me parece
bien todo. Pero si quiero pertenecer a una organizacion para
aprovechar las ventajas que me ofrece, pues me adapto a sus
reglas. Sencillo, no?

> La censura consiste en reivindicar la igualdad? Extra=F1a cosa. Yo

> quiero tratar los temas en pie de igualdad y no "teniendo que

> convencer" a quien no conozco ni s=E9 porqu=E9 est=E1 ah=ED.

No la censura consiste en pretender designar quien puede votar y
quien no.

> En definitiva, estoy contra el sistema cerrado. =BFTu est=E1s a favor?

Yo no estoy a favor del sistema cerrado. Yo estoy a favor de cumplir
las normas establecidas por quienes hacen posible que esto funcione.
Tu no?

*********************************************************************

JOSE MANUEL DIEGUEZ PEREZ Non lle ponhades chatas a obra
Facultat d'Informatica de Barcelona mentras non estea rematada,
Laboratori de Calcul-Area de Gestio traballade nela.
Campus Nord UPC, Modul B6 (Castelao)
Jordi Girona Salgado, 1-3
E-08034 Barcelona
Phone: +34 3 4016946 email: jo...@fib.upc.es
Fax: +34 3 4017040 WWW: http://www-fib.upc.es/

Grupo de novas en Galego: http://www.simil.es/scg/scg.htm

[Gurriato Gurriatez]

Jaume M. Canaves wrote:

> On Mon, 17 Nov 1997, Gurriato Gurriatez wrote:
>

> > > > Sanmartí, mamón, que te parta un rayo.
> > >
> > > "Sanmartin, cocksucker, get hit by a bolt"
> > >
> > > which indeed is a very mature attitude, isn't it, Mr. Proponent?
> >
> > I am quite mature, and still get quite angry at people calling me in
>
> > earnest a "presumed delinquent".
>

> Hell, a think that calling 'presumed delinquent' is not as bad as
> calling
> other people 'terrorists', a word that you and Viper have used quite
> frequently in this discusion

Please, provide a SINGLE example of my calling anyone terrorist in this
discussion. You guys have been clipping my complete production in the
Net. Please, bring a SINGLE example of my calling anyone a terrorist in
this discussion.

Jaume, these manipulations are very sleezy. In the long run they'll work
against you.

> ...

>
> > I have my own set of epithets for such people.
>

> We all know that, Dr. Soria.

>
> > Incidentally, "mamon" means "sucker", not "cocksuker", and "que te
>
> > parta un rayo' es the Spanish equivalent to "go fly a kite"
>

> Perhaps you are too sensitive for my literal translations, Dr.
> Soria...
> I though that you always despissed politically correctness, even in
> translations.
>

They are not literal translations. They are deliberately false
translations.Mamon is the word for sucker, not for cocksuker.

> > Please, Jaume, you know how to translate better than that. Stop
> difaming
> > Mr. Viper. These sleezy OJ's lawyer tricks will get you nowhere.
>

> There's no need to defamate Mr. Viper for the simple reason that his
> own messages portrait him perfectly. Nobody has resorted to insults
> and personal attacks in this discusion as Mr. Viper.

Your "translations" portrait him like that.I have seen also the
"translations" by Artur of a funny nickname he gave himself "Estenanita
Cueceleches"

> If you feel
> embarrassed by his messages and don't want him to keep on doing that,
> go and tell him. If he behaves like a childish moron,

Childish moron is my concept of a serious insult, not a compliment.What
a nice thing to say!!! Viper, we told you how to behave and you didn't,
you are a childish moron....

> pointing the
> inadequeacy of such behavior and telling him to stop it is not
> defamating him.
>
> Regarding 'tricks', what is going to take you nowhere is pointing
> fingers to everybody in this discusion, quoting parts of messages
> out of context in soc.culture.spain to inflame people, and calling
> anybody that doesn't follow your ideas or is critical with your
> proposal a
> 'radical nationalist'.

This is exactly what you have been doing for the last two weeks. You,
Artur and Maracas have been clipping anything you tought was
innapropiate from people's posts and bringing the clip to this forum.If
you want a myriad of examples I can provide them.

Sincerely

GURRIATO GURRIATEZ

[Pakete]

as1...@cus.cam.ac.uk (Artur Sixto) wrote:

>Agusti Roig <agu...@txati.upc.es> writes:

AAAAAARGGHHHHHHH!!!

Ethnics groups? In Spain?

Oh my God!, What are you saying, maaan?

Ethnic groups in Spain... Jesus, Jesus...

Mr. Sixto, where have you forgotten your good sense?

Please, Artur, don't say nonsenses.

(Por amor de Dios, arturito, ¿pero qué estás hablando de grupos
étnicos? Estás perdiendo los papeles tio...)

>Artur Sixto

Amazed,
Pakete

[Jaume M. Canaves]

On Tue, 18 Nov 1997, Pakete wrote:

> Ethnic groups in Spain... Jesus, Jesus...
>
> Mr. Sixto, where have you forgotten your good sense?
>
> Please, Artur, don't say nonsenses.

Pakete, Emilio Soria dixit...

[Kathy Pascoe]

Enrique Diaz-Alvarez wrote:
>
> I would like to hear from all those who previously intended to vote
> against the group (other than those who oppose it for political
> reasons, of course) whether or not robomoderation would be enough to
> rethink their vote. Thanks.

Robomoderation will go a long way in helping me to abstain rather than
vote no.
--
Kathy Pascoe ~ kpa...@ford.com (work) ~ kpa...@sprintmail.com (home)

[Jaume M. Canaves]

On Tue, 18 Nov 1997, Viper wrote:

> Russ Allbery wrote:
>
> >
> > Hell, talk.politics.charnego would probably work too, although some people
> > apparently are insulted enough by the term that choosing another may be
> > wise.
>
> Maybe. But inaccurate towards charnegos. If charnegos like the term, I
> don't see the reason why we have to change the name of OUR group (although
> I'm aware that "property" in Usenet is a pretty strange concept). In any
> case, it's up to them. If 'polakos' or whoever feel disturbed or insulted
> by the name, it's not OUR worry.

Viper, there are 'charnegos' that oppose the name. If by saying "OUR"
group you mean the group for the 'charnegos' that don't feel ofended
by that word, so be it. But that is not a soc.culture group for all
the 'charnegos'. You want a soc.culture group? so you better cut a deal
with the 'charnegos' that oppose the creation of the group, otherwise
you are describing a talk.politics group.

Not only 'polakos' (thanks for the insult...) oppose the use of the word
'charnego', and nobody is falling for your accusations that everybody
that opposes the creation of *your* group is a 'polako' or a
'nationalist'.

[Henrietta Thomas]

In news.groups on 17 Nov 1997 00:56:42 GMT, as1...@cus.cam.ac.uk (Artur Sixto)
wrote:

>E. Soria suffers from an infantile psychological condition know as
>encopresis: crapping around on purpose, in despite.
>
>
>[I won't answer the rest of his 216 lines. Haven't got enough bleach.]

This is not necessary. If you don't like what Dr. Sorio says, just put
him in your killfile. We are here to discuss a proposal, not sling mud.
I am surprised because, in another thread, you made a good analysis
of the situation that led me to think you were ready for a compromise.
But I guess I was wrong. :-(

Followups to news.groups, soc.culture.spain.

Henrietta
===
Name of the game, ladies and gentlemen, is to communicate with
each other, NOT fighting. ---Erol Keskin, 10-21-97

[Henrietta Thomas]

In news.groups on Mon, 17 Nov 1997 12:37:49 -0800, "Jaume M. Canaves"
<jcan...@ucsd.edu> wrote:

[snip].....

>What we have now is that the party that has the power in the central
>government has also the power in the local govenmnent of the Baleric
>Islands, and a nationalist part in Catalonia. The laws about use of
>language at school are IDENTICAL in Catalonia and the Balearic Islands,
>but the central government ONLY attacks those policies in Catalonia.
>Do you understand it now?

I understand that Spanish is supposed to be the official language in
Spain, but that bilingualism is encouraged in the provinces. I also
understand that both the Basques and the Catalonians (and perhaps
others as well) have grievances against Spain going back centuries
which have not been resolved, and that they would prefer to be
politically independent of Spain. It seems to me this points toward
a group called talk.politics.spain, but no one has proposed such a
group.

>We are not talking about educational issues, we are talking about
>politics. It is not the educational issue what is under attack, it
>is the party that supports those policies. And that is what underlies
>all this discusion and the creation of the group. Why do you think
>there are so many references about "Catalan nationalists" in the
>messages of the proponents and their supporters?.

Because there apparently _are_ large numbers of "Catalan
nationalists" in Catalonia who wish their country was not part
of Spain.

[snip]....

>I guess the best way to solve this situation would be for the proponents
>to create a mail list, have it working for a few months and then show that
>they have the traffic and it is not only a political traffic. If the
>traffic is only politic like now, I would support the creation of a
>talk.politics.catalan. If the traffic was also cultural I would not have
>any problem with the creation of a group in the soc.culture.* hierarchy.

The main thing is to stop the carping back and forth and focus on
the issues instead. The proponents have to decide for themselves
whether they want a mainly political group or a mainly cultural group,
and present a proposal better suited to the objective they have agreed
upon.

>Even in that situation and considering the attitude of the proponents and
>their behavior in soc.culture.catalan I doubt they would get any sympathy
>in soc.culture.catalan. If they could pen a proposal with more guarantees
>that group is not going to be a flame-war heaven and find a proponent that
>was not unnacceptable for the people in soc.culture.catalan, their
>proposal would not have so much opposition.

There is no way anyone can guarantee how a newsgroup will turn
out, and I do not think it is appropriate for readers of soc.culture.
catalan to dictate terms and conditions for another newsgroup.
Would you accept Dr. Sorio dictating terms and conditions for
soc.culture.catalan? I don't think so. You yourself said that one
of the reasons for this proposal was that the proponents did
not like the suggestions for moderating s.c.catalan against
crossposts.

>Even more, if they could get the support of 'charnegos' that
>are currently opposed to this proposal like Antonio Ortiz and
>Juanjo Sanmartin, and a proponent like Miguel Angel that has
>always kept a educated like of discusion in soc.culture.catalan
>and has not resorted to trolling and insulting Catalan-speakers,
>I have no doubt they would have no problem whatsoever.

Mr. Angel has already volunteered to help. And the proponents
could invite people like Antonio Ortiz and Juanjo Sanmartin to
join the mailing list to plan what comes next. Their opinion would
be most important to the success or failure of the next proposal.

[Henrietta Thomas]

[First, a thank you to Ms. Gazis-Sax for explaining that we are not Gods
on earth]

In news.groups on Mon, 17 Nov 1997 10:37:16 -0800, Gurriato Gurriatez
<eso...@unmc.edu> wrote:

[snip]....

>I would like to resolve this issues once for all by requesting a
>straight answer from the proponents of the group and other people
>interested in creating it
>
>DO YOU WANT
>
>1) Change the name to soc.culture.catalan.charnego or something similar
>
>2) Robomoderation of the group against crossposting
>
>3) Delay of the date to have time to obtan a mailing list first
>

>My answer to all three questions is YES. I would like to see other
>people's opinions.
>
>The only thing I would not compromise is that I want the word "charnego"
>appearing in the name, even if several other words are added. Please,
>don't let these questions linger for too long. We need an answer and
>proceed with the business

My answer is more or less YES, too. What you really need is to:

a) convince Viper to take this political proposal off the table,

b) get together on a private mailing list with supporters of the
idea and "hash things out" until you come with a better proposal,

c) set up a web site on charnego culture and see what kind of
reaction you get (the web site could include an invitation for people
to join a discussion list on charnego culture).

If you get a good reaction to the web site, you should get more
support for the newsgroup idea. But if not, you may want to rethink
the whole thing. There is no point in making a proposal which is
almost sure to fail.

Artur Sixto made a list of possible newsgroup names which have
already been suggested. He also says he counted at least 10
supporters posting in news.groups now. Even Jaume Canaves
is finally coming out with some constructive suggestions. This
is the place to start. Give yourself at least two or three months,
and see what you can do. Good proposals usually have a better
chance to pass.

Henrietta
---
Confused by the noise in news.groups? For an in-depth explanation,
see the Bernstein/McQuitty news.groups FAQ:
http://www.tezcat.com/~josephb/newsgroups/debate.html

[Robert Kaplan]

The only one I have here is "Insight Guides - Barcelona" ISBN
0-395-755-04-2. See page 58 (amongh others) "known by the DEROGATORY name
of xarnegos, they are the immigrants... etc". I was curious and looked some
others in the library, and found a couple of references.

Still think - seriously - that the solution is to ask a large Spanish
newspaper or magazine. They have rules for all this. Simply ask them if
they would use the word "charnego" in an article and, if not, why not.

Salu2,

Pinko

Gurriato Gurriatez <eso...@unmc.edu> wrote in article

<3471064F...@unmc.edu>...

[Jaume M. Canaves]

On Tue, 18 Nov 1997, Gurriato Gurriatez wrote:

> Stop patronizing me, Jaume.What I am talking about is that communist
> should not be denyed a group A PRIORI, just because they are called
> communists, like you are trying to do with the Charnegos.

I'm not trying to deny that the 'charnegos' can have their group if they
wish so. I have addressed some concerns about the impartiality of the
proposal and some political bias, and I have also suggested some changes
to improve the chances that a group for 'charnegos' can pass. I don't see
any comments about that...

> I am perfectly aware that if they want a group (I don't know if they do
> or if they already have one) they' ll have to go through the normal
> procedures. And don be such a sycophant with Mr Russ. It's too obvious.

What is obvious is that you have not read the rules and requirements to
create a group and the regular procedure. I suppose that if we were
trying to tell you that the spelling of 'group' is that and not 'groop'
we would all be part of a nationalist conspiracy or sycophants of whoever
you feel like calling the 'leader of the pack'.

Part of the process to create a group is addressing the concerns of the
participants in the discusion, accepting suggestions, and trying to be
flexible. I have made a lot of suggestions in several messages, but all
you have been doing is ignoring them and resorting to the cheap excuse
that I'm part of some nationalist conspiracy or I'm just following some
of Russ' ideas.

Me, Agusti, and other people that initially were frontally opposed to
the creation of the group in the soc.culture hierarchy are trying to
soften our positions so this proposal can be modified to include the
opinions of all the 'charnegos' and not only a disgruntled faction. You
can either accept this offer of cooperation or just retreat to your
coccoon and repeat mantras about 'nationalists', 'divine rights and
'unnacceptability' of any modification in the proposal. As I say in a
previous message, the ball is in your park now, and if you choose to
ignore it you better get ready for the consequences.

> We have proved that the word Charnego is not insulting , people very
> highly respected and widely known intellectuals are using the word as
> something quite matter-of-fact.

No, you have proved that some people can call themselves 'charnegos' and
they feel comfortable with that. You have not proven that when those
people are called 'charnego' by a 'non-charnego' they don't feel insulted.

> These people are not feeling insulted. They say they are for political
> reasons, to have this project cancelled. They are nationalists who don't
> want the charnegos having an independent voice.

Some are feeling insulted, some are not. Do you want a group reserved for
the 'charnegos' that don't feel insulted or a group for all the
'charnegos'?.

Cheers,

Jaume

[Gurriato Gurriatez]

Jaume M. Canaves wrote:

> On Mon, 17 Nov 1997, Gurriato Gurriatez wrote:
>
> > Exactly. The only ones using the term as an insult are the wacos.
>
> You can not generalize with just one example. The fact that wacos
> use that word doesn't mean that it only has a derogatory meaning
> for them.
>
> > Communist have the right to have a newsgroup. I see nothing wrong
> with a
> > group for hispanic issues. Charnegos do have a right to a newsgroup
> too.
>
> Emilio, I thing Russ already explained all that about the "rights" in
> Usenet...
>

Stop patronizing me, Jaume.What I am talking about is that communist

should not be denyed a group A PRIORI, just because they are called

communists, like you are trying to do with the Charnegos. I am perfectly

aware that if they want a group (I don't know if they do or if they
already have one) they' ll have to go through the normal procedures.
And don be such a sycophant with Mr Russ. It's too obvious.

> > The word is not important. What it is important is the "animus

> > iunuriandi", the intention to insult.
>
> Well, maybe the word in not important for you, but people that could
> be included in that denomination like Antonio or Juanjo don't seem to
> be very happy about the use of that word... So we have here two groups
>
> of 'charnegos', one that love the use of the word, and another one
> that
> hates the use of that word. And both groups are separated along
> political and ideological lines. If the group is going to be a group
> for all 'charnegos' I think you should solve that question unless you
> try to create a group with a name that is only acceptable by part of
> those 'charnegos'. If part of the 'charnegos' imposes a name despised
> by other 'charnegos' what you are having is a group supporting some
> political/ideological point of view, which I think would not be
> compatible

> with the concept of a soc.culture.* group. On the other hand, if you
> choose to ignore the opinion of the 'charnegos' that oppose the
> creation

> of the group, the proposal would be okay for a talk.politics group...
>

If I consider the word "stamp collector" insulting, should stamp
collector be denyed a newsgroup?

We have proved that the word Charnego is not insulting , people very
highly respected and widely known intellectuals are using the word as
something quite matter-of-fact.

These people are not feeling insulted. They say they are for political

reasons, to have this project cancelled. They are nationalists who don't
want the charnegos having an independent voice.

> What I'm saying is that you guys should create a consensus between

> your
> positions and the positions of all the 'charnegos' that have been
> opposing
> the creation of the group. The group should be created by a consensus
> between the 'charnegos', and not by a faction refusing to accept any
> change in the charter, calling names to the 'dissidents', and seeking
> outside support to impose their idea of how the group should be. That
> kind of partisan approach has little to do with the idea of culture,
> and
> a lot with politics.

We are not going to make a national referendum in the real world,
JaumeRemember, this is the Net.

I've been "beyond and back"

GURRIATO GURRATEZ

[Johny Maracas]

On Sun, 16 Nov 1997 20:21:37 -0800, Gurriato Gurriatez
<eso...@unmc.edu> wrote:

>
>I don't think Texan travel guides, checked out by an Argentinian, should
>be an important criterium to name the group.
>

And what about Extremaduran immigrants living in Nebraska but
pontificating about "charnegos" in Catalonia, Mr.Soria?

Johny

_ _ _

"And be these juggling fiends no more believ'd"
W.Shakespeare,«Macbeth» V,5,48

Email to: johny_...@hotmail.com