RFD: rec.games.roguelike.{moria,nethack,rogue}
David Grabiner
hierarchy to dicuss Rogue and related games. The hierarchy is
inconsistent as it now stands. Since the consensus was to put the
Angband group in this new hierarchy, while the votes to move the
existing groups for Moria, Hack, and Rogue failed, we now have
rec.games.moria but rec.games.roguelike.angband.
Therefore, I propose that we clean up this hierarchy by putting
everything under rec.games.roguelike; this will make it easier for
readers of one group to find the others.
Proposal 1: Move rec.games.hack to rec.games.roguelike.nethack.
Proposal 2: Move rec.games.moria to rec.games.roguelike.moria.
Proposal 3: Move rec.games.rogue to rec.games.roguelike.rogue.
There will be no changes in the charters of these groups, except for a
minor revision to indicate that rec.games.roguelike.nethack is concerned
with Nethack and related games, rather than with Hack, a very old
version of the same game. The one-line description will read, "The
computer game Nethack."
Discussion of this reorganization will take place in news.groups only.
If a vote is held, I will ask the Usenet Volunteer Votetakers to select
a neutral vote-taker.
--
David Grabiner, grab...@zariski.harvard.edu
"We are sorry, but the number you have dialed is imaginary."
"Please rotate your phone 90 degrees and try again."
Disclaimer: I speak for no one and no one speaks for me.
David Mehringer
>It has been six months since the creation of the rec.games.roguelike.*
>hierarchy to dicuss Rogue and related games. The hierarchy is
>inconsistent as it now stands. Since the consensus was to put the
>Angband group in this new hierarchy, while the votes to move the
>existing groups for Moria, Hack, and Rogue failed, we now have
>rec.games.moria but rec.games.roguelike.angband.
>
changes indicates that there was strong opposition six months ago. I
doubt that things have changed.
>Therefore, I propose that we clean up this hierarchy by putting
>everything under rec.games.roguelike; this will make it easier for
>readers of one group to find the others.
>
If there is unhappiness that the Angband group doesn't fit in,
why not change rec.games.roguelike.angband to rec.games.angband.
Only one change instead of three. I personally think that the
.roguelike extension is not necessary. People seem to have no
trouble finding these groups.
--
Dave Mehringer University of Illinois
dmeh...@sirius.astro.uiuc.edu Department of Astronomy
BIMA post-doc/AIPS manager Urbana, IL 61801 USA
BIMA=Berkeley-Illinois-Maryland Association mm-wave interferometer
David Green
->If there is unhappiness that the Angband group doesn't fit in,
->why not change rec.games.roguelike.angband to rec.games.angband.
->Only one change instead of three. I personally think that the
->.roguelike extension is not necessary. People seem to have no
->trouble finding these groups.
However, the -wrong- people have no trouble finding rec.games.hack, either.
Postings of "Can I get a hack/crack/password/hintbook for game X" seem to
show up in waves. And, while the readers of r.g.h seem to have no trouble
treating these with a sense of humor, it -does- grow tiresome to deal with
them after a while.
Besides which, there's a certain amount of logical consistency in having
these three groups down a further classification hierarchy, since it
allows people with an interest in one game to more easily find information
about similar games.
--
David Green
"Isn't it nice to know a lot -- and a little bit not?"
Scott Forbes
|The fact that the readers of all three newsgroups voted against these
|changes indicates that there was strong opposition six months ago. I
|doubt that things have changed.
Apparently you're not aware of what the voting results *were*, then.
Over 60% of the readers voted in favor of renaming -- but not the 66.67%
that were required for passage. If I remember correctly, changing the
votes of less than ten people would have affected the results.
It is also worth pointing out here that rec.games.hack *really* needs
to be renamed. Half the net apparently thinks its a good place to ask
for the secret code to level 99 of Lemmings, or how to defeat various
game copy protection schemes.
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this section only. Do not turn to any other section of the test.
David DeLaney
>grab...@math.harvard.edu (David Grabiner) writes:
>>Therefore, I propose that we clean up this hierarchy by putting
>>everything under rec.games.roguelike; this will make it easier for
>>readers of one group to find the others.
>>
>If there is unhappiness that the Angband group doesn't fit in,
>why not change rec.games.roguelike.angband to rec.games.angband.
>Only one change instead of three. I personally think that the
>.roguelike extension is not necessary. People seem to have no
>trouble finding these groups.
The .roguelike hierarchy is necessary; in *fact*, all four groups should
logically be under rec.games.computer.roguelike.* . Placing r.g.h into
(at least) r.g.r.h will cut down drastically on the number of "Hey, Where
Do I Get The Xwing Cracks?" posts, while putting r.g.m in the same level/
hierarchy as r.g.r.a will help moria fans find the Angband group and vice
versa, and cut down on the number of displaced posts.
Reorganizing the hierarchy to either r.g.r.* or r.g.computer.r.* will get
my vote.
Dave "beta-testing Angband 2.5.7.who-knows" DeLaney
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Chris Herborth
> It has been six months since the creation of the rec.games.roguelike.*
> hierarchy to dicuss Rogue and related games. The hierarchy is
> inconsistent as it now stands. Since the consensus was to put the
> Angband group in this new hierarchy, while the votes to move the
> existing groups for Moria, Hack, and Rogue failed, we now have
> rec.games.moria but rec.games.roguelike.angband.
[...]
> Proposal 1: Move rec.games.hack to rec.games.roguelike.nethack.
> Proposal 2: Move rec.games.moria to rec.games.roguelike.moria.
> Proposal 3: Move rec.games.rogue to rec.games.roguelike.rogue.
I think this is an excellent idea; not only does it improve the
consistancy of the rec.games hierarchy, but it should also cut down on
the number of bozo posts going to rec.games.hack along the lines of "How
do I crack Foo?" or "Does anyone have any cheats for Bar?"
I can't really see any disadvantages; putting the classics into the
rec.games.roguelike hierarchy will alert fans to other games that they
might enjoy.
--
-------------------========================================-------------------
cher...@semprini.waterloo-rdp.on.ca
Chris Herborth
David Grabiner
> In article <rec.games.rogue...@uunet.uu.net> grab...@math.harvard.edu (David Grabiner) writes:
>>It has been six months since the creation of the rec.games.roguelike.*
>>hierarchy to dicuss Rogue and related games. The hierarchy is
>>inconsistent as it now stands. Since the consensus was to put the
>>Angband group in this new hierarchy, while the votes to move the
>>existing groups for Moria, Hack, and Rogue failed, we now have
>>rec.games.moria but rec.games.roguelike.angband.
>>
> The fact that the readers of all three newsgroups voted against these
> changes indicates that there was strong opposition six months ago. I
> doubt that things have changed.
Things have changed. The most important change is that the consensus
was to create rec.games.roguelike.angband in the existing hierarchy,
rather than rec.games.angband as I originally proposed.
That is the reason for my new proposal. I voted against the original
name changes, assuming that we would have new group created as
rec.games.angband. The Angband discussion was put on hold while the
rec.games.roguelike.* votes were held. When the discussion was
restarted, there was enough support for putting the Angband group in
that hierarchy that it became the consensus choice for the name.
I will vote for the name changes this time, and it won't take many other
similar reactions to swing the votes. (They were all close.)
Tom O Breton
subhierarchy:
My neatness instinct says that the move would be, well, neat. However,
my net.knowledge says that it would move groups that people can already
find, causing a month of semi-confusion with some lingering effects at a
few sites.
However, to the idea (raised 6 months ago) that one can simply make a
periodic posting pointing to other groups, the same could be said as a
rationale for making all newsgroups top-level. Which is not neccessarily
terrible -- alt.* mostly does that and lives with it.
Summarizing my opinion: Undecided, with points on both sides.
As for the side point of a rec.games.computer.* hierarchy, I think it's
too "coarse" a grain size because it swallows something like half of
rec.games.*
Tom
--
t...@world.std.com, TomB...@delphi.com
finger me for how Tehomega is coming along
David DeLaney
>As for the side point of a rec.games.computer.* hierarchy, I think it's
>too "coarse" a grain size because it swallows something like half of
>rec.games.*
Which is a Sign that half of rec.games.* belongs under rec.games.computer.*,
but isn't there because noone thought to create it way back when, no?
Dave "let's leave out the computer-*and*-non-computer special cases for now"
Tom Haapanen
> The fact that the readers of all three newsgroups voted against these
> changes indicates that there was strong opposition six months ago. I
> doubt that things have changed.
They have. And I'll vote for the change this time.
> If there is unhappiness that the Angband group doesn't fit in,
> why not change rec.games.roguelike.angband to rec.games.angband.
> Only one change instead of three. I personally think that the
> .roguelike extension is not necessary. People seem to have no
> trouble finding these groups.
You, too, can be a namespace organization fanatic! Find out how to join
us -- read news.groups regularly! :)
--
[ /tom haapanen -- to...@metrics.com -- software metrics inc -- waterloo, ont ]
[ "how's it going, mr. peterson?" ]
[ "it's a dog eat dog world, and i'm wearing milkbone underwear." -- cheers ]
Alan Coopersmith
|In article <CnpCM...@world.std.com> t...@world.std.com writes:
|>As for the side point of a rec.games.computer.* hierarchy, I think it's
|>too "coarse" a grain size because it swallows something like half of
|>rec.games.*
|
|Which is a Sign that half of rec.games.* belongs under rec.games.computer.*,
|but isn't there because noone thought to create it way back when, no?
Or maybe comp.games.*
--
--------------------------------------------------------------------------
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U.C. Berkeley Open Computing Facility Bitnet: alanc@ucbocf
greg berigan
>d...@martha.utcc.utk.edu (David DeLaney) writes in news.groups:
>>>As for the side point of a rec.games.computer.* hierarchy, I think it's
>>>too "coarse" a grain size because it swallows something like half of
>>>rec.games.*
>>Which is a Sign that half of rec.games.* belongs under rec.games.computer.*,
>>but isn't there because noone thought to create it way back when, no?
>Or maybe comp.games.*
Or comp.sys.*.games? Comp.sys.amiga.games already exists.
Meanwhile, you could inform them to move to the relevent comp.sys.*
group.
--
gber...@cse.unl.edu (Greg Berigan)
Be articulate! Your new patience will not show up immediately.
David DeLaney
>al...@OCF.Berkeley.EDU (Alan Coopersmith) writes:
>>d...@martha.utcc.utk.edu (David DeLaney) writes in news.groups:
>>>t...@world.std.com writes:
>>>>As for the side point of a rec.games.computer.* hierarchy, I think it's
>>>>too "coarse" a grain size because it swallows something like half of
>>>>rec.games.*
>
>>>Which is a Sign that half of rec.games.* belongs under rec.games.computer.*,
>>>but isn't there because noone thought to create it way back when, no?
>
>>Or maybe comp.games.*
>
>Or comp.sys.*.games? Comp.sys.amiga.games already exists.
>
>Meanwhile, you could inform them to move to the relevent comp.sys.* group.
No such animal; you want to split rec.games.roguelike.angband into
comp.sys.ibm.pc.games.angband
comp.sys.unix.angband
comp.sys.mac.angband
comp.sys.atari.angband
comp.sys.etc. ?
No thanks. Discussions about *programming* the games go under comp.sys.*;
discussions about *playing* the games go under rec.games.computer.* .
Dave "in case it's not clear: comp.sys.amiga.games -> rec.games.computer.amiga"
DeLaney
--
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and a half, and a half penny!"; Disclaimer: UTK? Agree with me? Yeah, right...;
Aliza R. Panitz
>my net.knowledge says that it would move groups that people can already
>find, causing a month of semi-confusion with some lingering effects at a
>few sites.
In general, though, it's better to pay the cost for this kind of
'preventive maintenance' and clean up the namespace a bit...
>However, to the idea (raised 6 months ago) that one can simply make a
>periodic posting pointing to other groups, the same could be said as a
>rationale for making all newsgroups top-level.
As a matter of fact, there *is* a periodic posting to all of the related
newsgroups (except for alt.games.omega, which isn't available at my
site.)
The roguelike games FAQ lists every single roguelike game that I've ever
heard mentioned. Among other things, it lists the appropriate newsgroup
to discuss each game in. I started the FAQ because I was sick of seeing
posts about Larn in rec.games.rogue, about Omega in r.g.moria, etc. It's
been pretty successful in sweeping all of that misplaced traffic into
r.g.r.misc - but there is still traffic about Angband in r.g.moria,
which I'm sure everyone would like to see cleared out. A FAQ just can't
do all of the work.
Moving r.g.{hack,moria,rogue} into the rec.games.roguelike hierarchy
just barely failed seven months ago. Given the success of the rest of
the hierarchy, I think it's an even better idea now.
- Aliza
Aliza R. Panitz
>
>minor revision to indicate that rec.games.roguelike.nethack is concerned
>with Nethack and related games, rather than with Hack, a very old
>version of the same game. The one-line description will read, "The
>computer game Nethack."
Currently, there are occasional posts about Hack in both rec.games.hack
and reg.games.roguelike.misc
If this proposal succeeds, all traffic about the game Hack should
migrate over to rec.games.roguelike.misc - Hack will not be homeless.
Both Hack and Rogue (an even older game) still have a following.
- Aliza
Tom O Breton
> 'preventive maintenance' and clean up the namespace a bit...
It's a judgement call. I give the considerations about equal weight.
> As a matter of fact, there *is* a periodic posting to all of the related
> newsgroups
...which is done by yourself, for which we are all grateful.
> (except for alt.games.omega, which isn't available at my site.)
Did you know that that need not stop you? As long as the first newsgroup
exists at your site, and any of 'em exist on the connecting sites, it
should go through. (See header Newsgroups: line)
David Grabiner
I didn't intend to push Hack into r.g.r.misc; just as Nethack is now in
r.g.r.hack because it is a version of Hack, Hack should probably be in
r.g.r.nethack because it is a version of Nethack.
The above comment about charters was mainly for the purpose of
clarification; a proposal for a new group should include a charter for
that group.
Andrew Solovay
Aliza R. Panitz <bug...@bronze.lcs.mit.edu> writes:
>
>Moving r.g.{hack,moria,rogue} into the rec.games.roguelike hierarchy
>just barely failed seven months ago. Given the success of the rest of
>the hierarchy, I think it's an even better idea now.
I agree. (As you may remember, I was the driving force behind the
semi-succesful "roguelike" reorganization, these many months gone
by...)
I think when I ran the last "roguelike" vote, there was a natural
conservative sentiment; after all, why move the thriving rec.games.foo
to a (not-yet-created) new hierarchy which might not even pass for
other groups?
Now that the hierearchy has three thriving groups (one of which,
r.g.r.angband, is very high-traffic), I think the reorg will be
successful. And, as has been said, it only *just barely* failed the
last time.
--
Andrew Solovay [PGP public key available on request]
"Cottleston, cottleston, cottleston pie."
-- Pooh
Sean P. Ryan
bit too strange and inconsistent for my tastes. Why would Rogue
itself be placed in a hierarchy for Rogue-like games?
--
|Sean Patrick Ryan, Underpaid Small Business Bookkeeper & net.geek|
|fs...@aurora.alaska.edu or se...@fred.com or P.O. Box 202964,|
|Anchorage, AK 99520-2964|Disclaimer: Tonya Harding made me do it.|
|"Wow, Sean Ryan is everywhere!!!" -- Duane Dubay <d...@pagesat.net>|
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|m+/---/* s-/+ n-- f(*@) g+ w+ t r- y+|<><|The University of Alaska|
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Axl
>Overall, a good idea. However, .roguelike.rogue sounds just a
>bit too strange and inconsistent for my tastes. Why would Rogue
>itself be placed in a hierarchy for Rogue-like games?
>
Sheesh...has 6 months really gone by since this hierarchy
for moria/rogue, etc... was shot down? I would think they could come
up with a better name than roguelike by now.
I still think I'd vote no again, tho...all the games have
signifigantly deviated from the 'parent' Rogue game that grouping them
back together really isn't necessary.
-axl
Aliza R. Panitz
> Sheesh...has 6 months really gone by since this hierarchy
>for moria/rogue, etc... was shot down? I would think they could come
>up with a better name than roguelike by now.
You haven't been paying attention. 7 months ago,
rec.games.roguelike.{moria,rogue,nethack} all barely failed, but
r.g.r.misc and .announce passed. Subsequent to that, r.g.r.angband passed,
and is a very busy group.
Since we've already got 3 active groups in the hierarchy, the name isn't
really up for grabs at this point.
> I still think I'd vote no again, tho...all the games have
>signifigantly deviated from the 'parent' Rogue game that grouping them
>back together really isn't necessary.
Nobody's suggesting putting all of the games in one newsgroup. However,
the games *are* similar, they *do* appeal to many of the same people,
and they do all share a basic genre - on Usenet, that's more than enough
grounds to justify a hierarchy.
In article <2nqlbq$6...@louie.udel.edu> fs...@camelot.acf-lab.alaska.edu (Sean P. Ryan) writes:
> Overall, a good idea. However, .roguelike.rogue sounds just a
> bit too strange and inconsistent for my tastes. Why would Rogue
> itself be placed in a hierarchy for Rogue-like games?
Well, if you want to split hairs, none of the 'rogue' games currently
available are exactly the same as the original BSD rogue, so they,
themselves, are just 'roguelike'.
The hierarchy name 'roguelike' was picked because it was the only name
that got a broad consensus of approval for both meaningfully describing
the games, and excluding other games of very different types.
- Aliza
David Grabiner
> Overall, a good idea. However, .roguelike.rogue sounds just a
> bit too strange and inconsistent for my tastes. Why would Rogue
> itself be placed in a hierarchy for Rogue-like games?
Do you have an alternative suggestion? I don't like the idea of leaving
Rogue alone and moving everything else.
One possibility would be to move Rogue into the existing
rec.games.roguelike.misc (i.e., delete the r.g.rogue group); there isn't
much traffic in r.g.rogue, so this wouldn't swamp the .misc group.
Andrew Solovay
Sean P. Ryan <fs...@camelot.acf-lab.alaska.edu> writes:
>Overall, a good idea. However, .roguelike.rogue sounds just a
>bit too strange and inconsistent for my tastes. Why would Rogue
>itself be placed in a hierarchy for Rogue-like games?
Why, because "like" is reflexive. Rogue is like Rogue.
Andrew Solovay
Axl <j_he...@oz.plymouth.edu> writes:
>
> Sheesh...has 6 months really gone by since this hierarchy
>for moria/rogue, etc... was shot down? I would think they could come
>up with a better name than roguelike by now.
> I still think I'd vote no again, tho...
Bless you, my son. With your opposition, how can we fail? If Axl be
against us, who else would not be for us?
If only we could get Joel Furr to oppose it...
Per Abrahamsen
David> Proposal 3: Move rec.games.rogue to rec.games.roguelike.rogue.
How about moving rec.games.rogue to rec.games.roguelike.misc instead?
Both groups are very low-volume. Would any of the current readers of
rec.games.rogue find it annoying to skip the occasional larn or omega
article in rec.games.roguelike.misc?
Axl
>
>Bless you, my son. With your opposition, how can we fail? If Axl be
>against us, who else would not be for us?
>
Hey hey hey...I have been a fan of Moria and Nethack for the
past 3+ years, (still haven't won either one *sigh*) that's why I am
interested in this discussion.
Yes I admit I was a bit, umm, opinionated in the animal-
buggering debate awhile back...but I'm not an ass all the time,
believe me. :)
Back to the topic: Like I said, I like these types of games,
I just do not see why there is a great need to put them together. The
idea of Moria came from Rogue...Rogue was maybe influneced by D&D.
The creators of D&D probably were inspired by works such as The Lord
of the Rings. Tolkien took alot of ideas from Norse and Old English
mythology. Is it necessary to group the offspring with it's origin?
In my opinion, no. I realize my chain of thought here may be rather
silly, but I'm just trying to make a point...each of the offspring
evolved into it's own thing...relating them back to their origins just
doesn't seem necessary.
-axl
Pete Berger
I totally agree. 98% of the traffic on the rogue group can be divided into
two categories:
1) What is the wizard's password for Rogue? (Answer: If you don't know, we
won't tell you).
2) Where can I get sources for UltraRogue? (Answer: You can't, Herb Chong
only released binaries.)
Nuke the rogue newsgroup. It has outlived it's usefulness. Plus, maybe it
will start a trend, and other low-to-no traffic newsgroups can be gotten
rid of as well.
Peter Berger
System Administrator
Telerama Public Access Internet
Disclaimer: I speak for me, not my company.
Tom O Breton
Newsgroups: news.groups
Subject: Re: RFD: rec.games.roguelike.{moria,nethack,rogue}
References: <1994Apr3.1...@martha.utcc.utk.edu>
Summary:
Expires:
Sender:
Reply-To: t...@world.std.com
Followup-To:
Distribution: world
Organization: BREnterprises
Keywords:
X-posted-by: My own casual posting program
abr...@iesd.auc.dk (Per Abrahamsen) writes:
> David> Proposal 3: Move rec.games.rogue to rec.games.roguelike.rogue.
>
> How about moving rec.games.rogue to rec.games.roguelike.misc instead?
Yes, several people have brought this up, and I agree too. Moving
rec.games.rogue to rec.games.roguelike.rogue is equivalent to deleting
rec.games.rogue and creating rec.games.roguelike.rogue.
But no-one expects much volume in rec.games.roguelike.rogue so how can
we justify creating it? The reasonable possibilities seem limited to
leaving it as is or moving it to rec.games.roguelike.misc.
David Grabiner
This is a reasonable proposal. Games such as Urogue might as well be
discussed in r.g.r.misc. They have no more in common with the original
Rogue than Hack does, except for the name.
This would require aliasing a group to an already existing group,
instead of the usual situation of aliasing a group to a new group name.
How would the technical details work?
Aliza R. Panitz
A RFD was issued on April 1st (not a joke) to, among other things,
rename rec.games.rogue to rec.games.roguelike.rogue
In the discussion on news.groups, there seems to be a consensus building
to simply remove rec.games.rogue, and redirect traffic to r.g.r.misc
Since this is a noticeable change from the original proposal, people
who ignored the RFD might now feel they have something to say. If you
do, please direct positive or negative comments into news.groups.
- Aliza
(Note: I am not arguing for or against this change, at the moment. I
just want all interested parties to be informed.)
David desJardins
> Both groups are very low-volume. Would any of the current readers of
> rec.games.rogue find it annoying to skip the occasional larn or omega
> article in rec.games.roguelike.misc?
Yes, I would find it incredibly annoying. Of course, I would also find
renaming rec.games.rogue to rec.games.roguelike.rogue to be incredibly
annoying.
Furthermore there is no mechanism for deleting existing groups, so you
are sure to get a lot of resistance on that front.
Here's a serious proposal: Why can't we just leave rec.games.rogue
alone, and rename/create the others under roguelike? I suspect a large
fraction of the people who voted against aspects of the renaming last
time would happily vote yes or stay out if you would just leave the
original group, rec.games.rogue, alone.
This namespace seems no less "clean" than does calling rogue a
"roguelike" game, and if the current readers would prefer it, then why
not? I know that you could get me to drop my resistance, and probably
many others, this way.
David desJardins
--
Copyright 1994 David desJardins. Unlimited permission is granted to quote
from this posting for non-commercial use as long as attribution is given.
Tim Pierce
David desJardins <de...@ccr-p.ida.org> wrote:
>Furthermore there is no mechanism for deleting existing groups, so you
>are sure to get a lot of resistance on that front.
Well, there is such a mechanism; it's called "rmgroup," and
at least in Usenet it works *reasonably* well, with a bit of
diligence. At the very least there's no Bruce Becker to
make it more difficult. While articles still show up for
news.admin and rec.arts.startrek and so on, the problem is
relatively small when there is an established and accepted
procedure for removing existing newsgroups.
--
____ Tim Pierce / Crazy isn't so bad. I could get
\ / twpi...@unix.amherst.edu / used to this.
\/ (BITnet: TWPIERCE@AMHERST) / -- Mary Campbell
JON A HAWKINS
>Per Abrahamsen <abr...@iesd.auc.dk> writes:
>> Both groups are very low-volume. Would any of the current readers of
>> rec.games.rogue find it annoying to skip the occasional larn or omega
>> article in rec.games.roguelike.misc?
>
>
>alone, and rename/create the others under roguelike? I suspect a large
>fraction of the people who voted against aspects of the renaming last
>time would happily vote yes or stay out if you would just leave the
>original group, rec.games.rogue, alone.
>
>This namespace seems no less "clean" than does calling rogue a
>"roguelike" game, and if the current readers would prefer it, then why
>not? I know that you could get me to drop my resistance, and probably
>many others, this way.
>
doesn't seem right to lump the basis game for the roguelike structure into
the misc. subcategory. Saying that Rogue is one of the miscellaneous
roguelike games seems awful silly and not quite just. If I were new to
Usenet, noticed the roguelike structure, asked about Rogue itself and was
told it was in roguelike.misc, I would definitely have some questions.
Just my opinion,
Jon Hawkins
Kari E. Hurtta
»In article <1994Apr5.1...@oz.plymouth.edu>,
» Axl <j_he...@oz.plymouth.edu> writes:
»>
»> Sheesh...has 6 months really gone by since this hierarchy
»>for moria/rogue, etc... was shot down? I would think they could come
»>up with a better name than roguelike by now.
»> I still think I'd vote no again, tho...
»Bless you, my son. With your opposition, how can we fail? If Axl be
»against us, who else would not be for us?
Thou can fail. I also opposite :-)
»If only we could get Joel Furr to oppose it...
Who is Joel Furr?
--
- Kari E. Hurtta / Elämä on monimutkaista
Kari....@Fmi.FI puh. (90) 1929 658
Aydin Edguer
>Per Abrahamsen <abr...@iesd.auc.dk> writes:
>> Both groups are very low-volume. Would any of the current readers of
>> rec.games.rogue find it annoying to skip the occasional larn or omega
>> article in rec.games.roguelike.misc?
>
>Yes, I would find it incredibly annoying.
I am vehemently opposed to the removal of rec.games.rogue. If you
wish to rename rec.games.rogue to rec.games.roguelike.rogue, I would
be disappointed, but not oppositional.
>Here's a serious proposal: Why can't we just leave rec.games.rogue
>alone, and rename/create the others under roguelike?
I second the proposal.
Aydin "just trying to use a larger vocabulary" Edguer
David Grabiner
rec.games.rogue to the existing rec.games.roguelike.misc, rather than to
a new group.)
It has been six months since the creation of the rec.games.roguelike.*
hierarchy to dicuss Rogue and related games. The hierarchy is
inconsistent as it now stands. Since the consensus was to put the
Angband group in this new hierarchy, while the votes to move the
existing groups for Moria, Hack, and Rogue failed, we now have
rec.games.moria but rec.games.roguelike.angband.
Therefore, I propose that we clean up this hierarchy by putting
everything under rec.games.roguelike; this will make it easier for
readers of one group to find the others.
Proposal 1: Move rec.games.hack to rec.games.roguelike.nethack.
Proposal 2: Move rec.games.moria to rec.games.roguelike.moria.
Proposal 3: Move rec.games.rogue to rec.games.roguelike.rogue.
Alternate to proposal 3: Move rec.games.rogue to the existing group
rec.games.roguelike.misc.
The alternate version of proposal 3 has been discussed, but it seems
that at least some readers of rec.games.rogue do not like it. I will
not use the alternate proposal unless it gets strong support in the
following discussion.
There will be no changes in the charters of these groups, except for a
minor revision to indicate that rec.games.roguelike.nethack is concerned
with Nethack and related games, rather than with Hack, a very old
version of the same game. The one-line description will read, "The
computer game Nethack."
Discussion of this reorganization will take place in news.groups only.
If a vote is held, I will ask the Usenet Volunteer Votetakers to select
a neutral vote-taker.
Balaji
to moved to a different hierarchy. Why is this being done? Whose idea is
this? How do such proposals get floated when there is no apparent
discontent on the newsgroup itself?
I'm fairly sure a majority of rgh readers enjoy the occasional clueless
idiot who posts something here about how to hack Pacman or Centipede. I
sure enjoy all the posts explaining clearly that centipedes only happen
if you're hallucinating, and a PoEH should fix that. Or some such.
This reorganization sounds like a bad idea. IMO, in case you were
wondering.
--
Balaji
ObYAFM: Run away! Run away! (Clue: I think only one class gets this.)
Balaji
> I often read rec.games.hack, and I haven't heard people here clamouring
> to moved to a different hierarchy. Why is this being done? Whose idea is
> this? How do such proposals get floated when there is no apparent
> discontent on the newsgroup itself?
These are serious questions, BTW, I wasn't trying to be nasty. I'd
really like to know why David Grabiner (who posted the RFD) thinks
rgh ought to be moved. Or rather, why DG thinks rgh readers think
it ought to be moved. No offence intended.
--
Balaji
Love, and do what you will.
RICHARD KENAN
Well, I personally dislike the clueless folx who post asking how to
hack commercial games, but that's hardly indicative of a general
sentiment or the personal sentiment of David Grabiner. The main
reason I think he wants to move it is to acheive a consistent
heirarchy for rogue descended games like (Net)Hack and Moria. This
is a worthy goal, IMHO, but if RGH readers are opposed to it, I'm
hardly going to be crushed. But what's the point of having a
heirarchy if nobody follows it?
--
Richard Kenan
Georgia Institute of Technology, Atlanta Georgia, 30332
uucp: ...!{allegra,amd,hplabs,ut-ngp}!gatech!prism!eefacdk
Internet: eef...@prism.gatech.edu
Avrom Faderman
X" traffic is down to a level that is manageable--some might even say
entertaining-- I remember that several months ago (October or November
perhaps?) it was simply dreadful. In addition, the title of the group
is simply misleading--virtually nobody playes "Hack" any more; this
group is almost exclusively devoted to the discussion of NetHack (the
perhaps 5 posts that I've seen about Hack in the last few months could
easily be covered on rec.games.roguelike.misc).
Finally, as it currently stands, the organization of the rogue-related
groups is illogical. We have a rec.games.roguelike.* hierarchy, but
only a few of the roguelike games use it. Perhaps I'm being
constipated about this, but logical orgainzation of newsgroups strikes
me as a Good Thing.
--
Avrom I. Faderman | "...a sufferer is not one who hands
av...@csli.stanford.edu | you his suffering, that you may
Stanford University | touch it, weigh it, bite it like a
CSLI and Dept. of Philosophy | coin..." -Stanislaw Lem
Avrom Faderman
>I'm in favor of the change. While the extraneous "How do I hack game
>X" traffic is down to a level that is manageable--some might even say
>entertaining-- I remember that several months ago (October or November
>perhaps?) it was simply dreadful.
I should clarify this. I think the reason it was so bad in October
and November probably had something to do with new University students
discovering the Net, but not yet understanding simple matters of
Netiquette (like reading the group, or at least the charter of the
group, that you're going to post to). Therefore, I don't think this
was a one-time only problem--it will probably be repeated next year
and every year, unless the newsgroup is moved.
Per Abrahamsen
>>>>> "David" == David Grabiner <grab...@math.harvard.edu> writes:
David> Proposal 3: Move rec.games.rogue to rec.games.roguelike.rogue.
David> Alternate to proposal 3: Move rec.games.rogue to the existing group
David> rec.games.roguelike.misc.
David> The alternate version of proposal 3 has been discussed, but it seems
David> that at least some readers of rec.games.rogue do not like it. I will
David> not use the alternate proposal unless it gets strong support in the
David> following discussion.
The alternate version of proposal 3 did get a pretty good reception,
and the few people who were against it seemed to be against _any_
change to rec.games.rogue, i.e. they will vote no anyway.
How about making a straw pool between the two versions of proposal 3?
Jonathan Vander Pol
> >I'm in favor of the change. While the extraneous "How do I hack game
> >X" traffic is down to a level that is manageable--some might even say
> >entertaining-- I remember that several months ago (October or November
> >perhaps?) it was simply dreadful.
>
> I should clarify this. I think the reason it was so bad in October
> and November probably had something to do with new University students
> discovering the Net, but not yet understanding simple matters of
> Netiquette (like reading the group, or at least the charter of the
> group, that you're going to post to). Therefore, I don't think this
> was a one-time only problem--it will probably be repeated next year
> and every year, unless the newsgroup is moved.
> --
a newgroup who catered to people who wanted to hack games.
I can definately see why people are confused, if they don't read any of
the posts or the news group faq.
And I am all for more orginization (at least on the net).
--
-----------------------------------------------------------------
| Jonathan Vander Pol van...@homer.bethel.edu |
-----------------------------------------------------------------
| "Life is pain, Higness. Anyone who says differently is |
| is selling something." --Wesley. The Princess Bride. |
-----------------------------------------------------------------
David desJardins
>> Alternate to proposal 3: Move rec.games.rogue to the existing group
> The alternate version of proposal 3 did get a pretty good reception,
> and the few people who were against it seemed to be against _any_
> change to rec.games.rogue, i.e. they will vote no anyway.
However there is still an important difference between the proposals.
There is a generally accepted set of guidelines which apply to newsgroup
creation and renaming, which means that the results of a vote on this
subject will likely be widely accepted, even by people who don't like
the result. There is no generally accepted set of guidelines for
deleting a newsgroup and telling the people who were using it, "We don't
think you should have a newsgroup to talk about that; go use this other
one instead." Thus the results of such a vote may well not be widely
accepted.
Per Abrahamsen
I don't think this will be a problem, especially not for such a
low-volume group.
>>>>> "David" == David desJardins <de...@ccr-p.ida.org> writes:
David> However there is still an important difference between the
David> proposals. There is a generally accepted set of guidelines
David> which apply to newsgroup creation and renaming, which means
David> that the results of a vote on this subject will likely be
David> widely accepted, even by people who don't like the result.
David> There is no generally accepted set of guidelines for deleting a
David> newsgroup and telling the people who were using it, "We don't
David> think you should have a newsgroup to talk about that; go use
David> this other one instead." Thus the results of such a vote may
David> well not be widely accepted.
Mark Jefferys
Balaji <bal...@nimbus.yorku.ca> wrote:
% I often read rec.games.hack, and I haven't heard people here clamouring
% to moved to a different hierarchy. Why is this being done? Whose idea is
% this? How do such proposals get floated when there is no apparent
% discontent on the newsgroup itself?
This isn't proposed just for the current readers. A better name would
give more information about this group to new people (fewer "How do I
break root, doodz?" posts).
Even better, if someone playing nethack wants to find related
newsgroups (this one). All they have to do is type "l nethack" (in
[t]rn, anyway) -- and find it. Except that this fails now, 'cuz
"rec.games.hack" doesn't contain "nethack".
Keeping the newsgroups organized is a good thing anyway. Take a glance
at the alt hierarchy sometime if you don't believe me.
% I'm fairly sure a majority of rgh readers enjoy the occasional clueless
% idiot who posts something here about how to hack Pacman or
% Centipede.
I'm not so sure about that. *I* certainly don't enjoy them.
Mark
--
Mark Jefferys Internet: mjef...@reed.edu
Jukka S Lahtinen
>Proposal 1: Move rec.games.hack to rec.games.roguelike.nethack.
Do you people suggesting this realize that there are people out there
who have never HEARD OF a game called rogue? Will they notice the group with
a name like that from thousands of groupnames? I know I stop reading the
newsgroup name when I see the first between-dots-part I'm not interested in..
--
+-------------------------------------------------------------------------+
! Jukka S Lahtinen ! jsla...@vipunen.hut.fi ! wal...@mits.mdata.fi !
+-------------------------------------------------------------------------+
David DeLaney
>grab...@math.harvard.edu (David Grabiner) writes:
>>Proposal 1: Move rec.games.hack to rec.games.roguelike.nethack.
>
>Do you people suggesting this realize that there are people out there
>who have never HEARD OF a game called rogue? Will they notice the group with
>a name like that from thousands of groupnames? I know I stop reading the
>newsgroup name when I see the first between-dots-part I'm not interested in..
Most people don't look for groups by reading through their .newsrc, they
tell a program (their newsreader, or grep, or whatever) "Look for this phrase
and tell me what's there".
Dave "which turns up 'hack' currently but not 'nethack'" DeLaney
--
David DeLaney: d...@utkux.utcc.utk.edu; WARNING: DO NOT PUT BEANS IN YOUR EARS!
Disclaimer: UTK agree with me? Yeah, right...; Thinking about this disclaimer__
may cause offense, brain seizure, confusion, or particle physics. VRbeableDJK\/
http://enigma.phys.utk.edu/~dbd for net.legends FAQ+miniFAQs or anon-ftp in pub
Martin Gregory
: I often read rec.games.hack, and I haven't heard people here clamouring
: to moved to a different hierarchy. Why is this being done? Whose idea is
: this? How do such proposals get floated when there is no apparent
: discontent on the newsgroup itself?
I too have not observed any discontent.
Also, I hate newsgroups with ridiculously long names. If a change is
to be made, what is wrong with rec.games.{moria,nethack,rogue}?
The only thing justifying the extra qualifier (roguelike) would be if
ther were going to be lots of them and the qualifier meant something
(like `frp` for example).
: This reorganization sounds like a bad idea. IMO, in case you were
: wondering.
If its a vote, I vote against the silly long name.
: ObYAFM: Run away! Run away! (Clue: I think only one class gets this.)
Coming to the real reason for responding to Balaji's post (:-)), I've
never seen this message, but it would have to be a Knight meeting a
three headed giant wouldn't it? ...but I've never seen a three headed giant!
Cheers,
Martin.
Boudewijn Wayers
>Discussion of this reorganization will take place in news.groups only.
Guys, can we please respect the nettiquette and discuss this as
requested, on news.groups? THIS group is for discussing (Net)Hack.
Boudewijn.
PS: Followup-To: news.groups was missing from the headers.
--
True or False, but they say that...
They say that some guards' palms can be greased. (F)
They say that soldiers are always prepared and usually protected. (T)
A ring of extra ring finger is useless if not enchanted. (F)
Chaos Manager
: In article <1994Apr19.0...@csli.stanford.edu>, I wrote:
: ... ( ... or at least the charter of the group that you're going to
: post to).
One question with respect to the charter. Where can one find a copy of
said charter? That may be part of the problem, not being able to locate
the charter.
Oh, well. Just my $.02...
-->------- John -------<--
Chris Herborth
There are several very good (IMHO) reasons for moving rec.games.hack to
rec.games.roguelike.hack:
1) consistancy with rec.games.roguelike.angband,
rec.games.roguelike.misc, rec.games.roguelike.announce
2) to cut down on the number of "how do I crack <popular PC game>?" and
"do you have any good cheats for <popular PC game> on this BBoard?"
posts
#2 is going to be more and more of a problem as time goes by. People
continue to waste their hard-earned cash on overpowered Intel-based DOS
machines, mostly to play games (or so it seems). The more clueless
people that have computers (and you can bet most people using DOS today
have no clue), the more clueless posts you'll see.
It also seems that only DOS users assume that *all* newsgroups are about
their PCs and their software; other users seem to know that the
comp.sys.{atari,amiga,acorn,whatever}.* groups are for this sort of
question... the PC users seem more apt to ignore comp.sys.ibmpc.games or
whatever the group is.
--
-------------------========================================-------------------
cher...@semprini.waterloo-rdp.on.ca
Chris Herborth
Aliza R. Panitz
>Balaji (bal...@nimbus.yorku.ca) wrote:
>: I often read rec.games.hack, and I haven't heard people here clamouring
>: to moved to a different hierarchy. Why is this being done? Whose idea is
>: this? How do such proposals get floated when there is no apparent
>: discontent on the newsgroup itself?
Most of the people promoting the reorganization read and post to
rec.games.moria and/or rec.games.roguelike.angband. The idea of the
hierarchy was started when people wanted to start a new newsgroup for
the game Angband, which was being discussed in rec.games.moria last
year. A lot of people felt that just having two newsgroups
rec.games.moria and rec.games.angband would not be sufficient to direct
people playing one game to the other newsgroup where a similar game was
being discusses. There were also frequent misplaced posts asking about
one roguelike game in the group for another game. Collecting all of the
roguelike games into a single hierarchy was felt to be a natural
solution to both of these problems.
>Also, I hate newsgroups with ridiculously long names. If a change is
>to be made, what is wrong with rec.games.{moria,nethack,rogue}?
The point of an organized hierarchy is to show that various groups
are somewhat related to each other. There are obvious similarities
among rogue, hack, nethack, moria, Angband, Omega, etc, that are not
found in games like bridge, chess, Muds, pinball, etc.
>The only thing justifying the extra qualifier (roguelike) would be if
>ther were going to be lots of them and the qualifier meant something
>(like `frp` for example).
There already *are* lots of roguelike games groups... rogue, moria,
hack, angband, misc, announce. The name 'roguelike' means something -
it means the game is a dungeon adventure game like rogue. How many
D&D players know what 'frp' stands for before they are told?
>If its a vote, I vote against the silly long name.
Wait until you see a formal CFV (Call-For-Votes), and then submit your
formal vote via e-mail, not by posting to news.groups.
(Of course, if you're just expressing a preference, news.groups is the
right place to be.)
- Aliza
Peter Snelling
>In article <55...@rhino.qpsx.oz.au> mar...@rhino.qpsx.oz.au (Martin Gregory) writes:
>>Balaji (bal...@nimbus.yorku.ca) wrote:
>>Also, I hate newsgroups with ridiculously long names. If a change is
>>to be made, what is wrong with rec.games.{moria,nethack,rogue}?
>
>The point of an organized hierarchy is to show that various groups
>are somewhat related to each other. There are obvious similarities
>among rogue, hack, nethack, moria, Angband, Omega, etc, that are not
>found in games like bridge, chess, Muds, pinball, etc.
>
>>The only thing justifying the extra qualifier (roguelike) would be if
>>ther were going to be lots of them and the qualifier meant something
>>(like `frp` for example).
>
>There already *are* lots of roguelike games groups... rogue, moria,
>hack, angband, misc, announce. The name 'roguelike' means something -
>it means the game is a dungeon adventure game like rogue. How many
>D&D players know what 'frp' stands for before they are told?
I'd be in favour of the renaming if I didn't think "roguelike" was
such a dumb name. Unfortunately, I haven't been able to think of
a clear/concise/meaningful alternative. Something like
single_user_visually_oriented_fantasy_role_playing, but it's
too long, and suvofrp is a tad cryptic.
Changing rec.games.hack to rec.games.nethack might be a good idea,
but I'm sure some people would still think it was about hacking on
the net.
--
Peter Snelling, P.Eng. Bell-Northern Research Ottawa, Canada
(snel...@bnr.ca) My views only, not my employer's.
Sean P. Ryan
>
>Alternate to proposal 3: Move rec.games.rogue to the existing group
>rec.games.roguelike.misc.
>
>The alternate version of proposal 3 has been discussed, but it seems
>that at least some readers of rec.games.rogue do not like it. I will
>not use the alternate proposal unless it gets strong support in the
>following discussion.
Of course. Namespace issues tend to draw opposition, for no other
reasons than; a) some people become emotionally attached to a
newsgroup name; and b) some people see the newsgroup creation process
as nothing more than mindlessly creating scads of new newsgroups,
allowing the namespace to fall into utter disarray in the process.
It doesn't sound to me like rec.games.rogue is exactly buried in
traffic, though I'll admit that I've never read it. I think it
could stand to be removed, if only for the sake of the namespace.
--
|Sean Patrick {"Bandwidth","Hardcore Alaskan"} Ryan| Snail: P.O. Box|
|202964, Anchorage, AK 99520-2964|E-mail: fs...@aurora.alaska.edu or|
|se...@fred.com |Who would you marry: Tonya Harding or Vicki Robinson?|
|"Wow, Sean Ryan is everywhere!!!" -- Duane Dubay <d...@pagesat.net>|<><|
|Disclaimer: My criminal Armenian grandparents forced me to write this.|
|GEEK CODE: GB/SS d--(++) p+/---/p+- c+(++) l(!l) u+/- e+ m+/---/* s-/+|
|n-- f(*@) g+ w+ t r- y+|Kurt Cobain is dead. I'm still alive.| fnord|
Peter Berger
merged into rec.games.roguelike.misc.
I play rogue. I like rogue. But this does not deserve it's own newsgroup
anymore.
Peter Berger
David desJardins
> It doesn't sound to me like rec.games.rogue is exactly buried in
> traffic, though I'll admit that I've never read it. I think it
> could stand to be removed, if only for the sake of the namespace.
It's funny (I would call it sad, but funny seems to about sum it up) how
happy people are to remove things that they know and care nothing about.
Personally I think the "fsspr" account is hard to pronounce, and while I
admit that I've never used it, I think it could stand to be removed, if
only for the sake of the namespace.
David desJardins
Aliza R. Panitz
> [I wrote:]
>>There already *are* lots of roguelike games groups... rogue, moria,
>>hack, angband, misc, announce. The name 'roguelike' means something -
>>it means the game is a dungeon adventure game like rogue. How many
>>D&D players know what 'frp' stands for before they are told?
>
>I'd be in favour of the renaming if I didn't think "roguelike" was
>such a dumb name. Unfortunately, I haven't been able to think of
>a clear/concise/meaningful alternative. Something like
>single_user_visually_oriented_fantasy_role_playing, but it's
>too long, and suvofrp is a tad cryptic.
We went through this six months ago, and 'roguelike' was the consensus
name picked. (Don't blame me - I voted against it. I originally
suggested the hierarchy as rec.games.dungeon.*, but Dungeon is the
name of a totally unrelated game...)
Currently, we *have* a rec.games.roguelike hierarchy:
rec.games.roguelike.announce (moderated by yours truly :-)
rec.games.roguelike.angband (Discussion of Angband, Fangband, etc.)
rec.games.roguelike.misc (Discussion of Omega, Larn, XFire, etc.)
We also have three newsgroups that we want to link in with these:
rec.games.hack (Discussion of NetHack)
rec.games.moria (Discussion of Moria, BOSS, etc.)
rec.games.rogue (Discussion of Rogue, URogue, etc.)
In my mind, the most important thing is that all six groups (or five,
if we kill .rogue) be in ONE place, together.
If anyone can think of a better name for the hierarchy, they're more
than welcome to float a competing proposal that renames ALL SIX
groups... but for the time being, we have to accept the name
'roguelike' as the hierarchy name.
By the way, a few days ago I let a friend of mine play Angband on my
computer... I just showed him the directory, and went off to take a
shower. After my shower, I asked him if he had any questions about
the game... he said it was pretty obvious, because it was 'a lot
like Rogue'. So I guess there *is* something to the name 'roguelike'...
- Aliza
... I guess I'm part of the 'Roguelike Games Cabal'...
Jay Maynard
Proposal 1: Move rec.games.hack to rec.games.roguelike.nethack.
Newsgroups lines:
rec.games.roguelike.moria The computer game Moria.
rec.games.roguelike.nethack The computer game Nethack.
rec.games.roguelike.rogue The computer game Rogue.
Votes must be received by 23:59:59 UTC, 30 May 1994.
This vote is being conducted by a neutral third party. For voting
questions only, contact the votetaker, Jay Maynard, at
jmay...@admin5.hsc.uth.tmc.edu. For questions about the
proposed group, contact the proponent, David Grabiner, at
grab...@math.harvard.edu.
CHARTER
All three groups will remain unmoderated.
There will be no changes in the charters of these groups, except for a
minor revision to indicate that rec.games.roguelike.nethack is concerned
with Nethack and related games, rather than with Hack, a very old
version of the same game.
RATIONALE
It has been seven months since the creation of the rec.games.roguelike.*
hierarchy to dicuss Rogue and related games. The hierarchy is
inconsistent as it now stands. Since the consensus was to put the
Angband group in this new hierarchy, while the votes to move the
existing groups for Moria, Hack, and Rogue failed, we now have
rec.games.moria but rec.games.roguelike.angband.
Therefore, it has been proposed that we clean up this hierarchy by
putting everything under rec.games.roguelike; this will make it easier
for readers of one group to find the others.
HOW TO VOTE
Erase everything above the top "-=-=-=-" line and erase everything
below the bottom "-=-=-=-" line. Do not erase anything between these
lines and do not change the group names.
Give your name on the line that asks for it. For each group, place a YES or
NO in the brackets next to it to vote for or against it. If you don't want
to vote on a particular group, just leave the space blank. Don't worry
about spacing of the columns or any quote characters (">") that your reply
inserts.
Then mail the ballot to: vo...@admin5.hsc.uth.tmc.edu
Just Replying to this message should work, but check the "To:" line.
-=-=-=-=-=- Don't Delete Anything Between These Lines =-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-
rec.games.roguelike.* Ballot <RGRL-0001> (Don't remove this marker)
Give your real name here:
[Your Vote] Group
-----------------------------------------------------------------------
[ ] rec.games.roguelike.moria
[ ] rec.games.roguelike.nethack
[ ] rec.games.roguelike.rogue
-=-=-=-=-=- Don't Delete Anything Between These Lines =-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-
Anything else may be rejected by the automatic vote counting program. The
votetaker will respond to your received ballots with a personal acknowledge-
ment by mail - if you do not receive one within several days, try again.
It's your responsibility to make sure your vote is registered correctly.
Only one vote per person, no more than one vote per account. Addresses and
votes of all voters will be published in the final voting results list.
--
Jay Maynard, EMT-P, K5ZC, PP-ASEL | Never ascribe to malice that which can
jmay...@admin5.hsc.uth.tmc.edu | adequately be explained by stupidity.
"The government which fears arms in the hands of its people...should."
-- Karl Kleinpaste
Jay Maynard
CHARTER
RATIONALE
HOW TO VOTE
rec.games.roguelike.* Ballot <RGRL-0002> (Don't remove this marker)
Give your real name here:
[Your Vote] Group
-----------------------------------------------------------------------
[ ] rec.games.roguelike.moria
[ ] rec.games.roguelike.nethack
[ ] rec.games.roguelike.rogue
-=-=-=-=-=- Don't Delete Anything Between These Lines =-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-
Anything else may be rejected by the automatic vote counting program. The
votetaker will respond to your received ballots with a personal acknowledge-
ment by mail - if you do not receive one within several days, try again.
It's your responsibility to make sure your vote is registered correctly.
Only one vote per person, no more than one vote per account. Addresses and
votes of all voters will be published in the final voting results list.
rec.games.roguelike.* Bounce List - No need to revote
------------------------------------------------------------------------------
andrew@gargoyle Andrew Ruthven
s.sc...@lha.zer.sub.org Stefan Schwoon
--
Jay Maynard, EMT-P, K5ZC, PP-ASEL | Never ascribe to malice that which can
jmay...@admin5.hsc.uth.tmc.edu | adequately be explained by stupidity.
To Sarah Brady, Howard Metzenbaum, Dianne Feinstein, and Charles Schumer:
Thanks. Without you, I would be neither a gun owner nor an NRA life member.
Jay Maynard
Proposal 1: Move rec.games.hack to rec.games.roguelike.nethack.
Proposal 2: Move rec.games.moria to rec.games.roguelike.moria.
Proposal 3: Move rec.games.rogue to rec.games.roguelike.rogue.
rec.games.roguelike.* results - 295 valid votes
Yes No : 2/3? >100? : Pass? : Group
---- ---- : ---- ----- : ----- : -------------------------------------------
229 45 : Yes Yes : Yes : rec.games.roguelike.moria
230 60 : Yes Yes : Yes : rec.games.roguelike.nethack
219 59 : Yes Yes : Yes : rec.games.roguelike.rogue
2 invalid votes
CHARTER
RATIONALE
rec.games.roguelike.* Final Vote Ack
rec.games.roguelike.rogue -----+
rec.games.roguelike.nethack ----+|
rec.games.roguelike.moria ---+||
|||
93d...@eng.cam.ac.uk Dave Holland NNN
A.J.H...@city.ac.uk Ali Harlow NNN
aa...@freenet.carleton.ca Marc Sira YYY
a...@mango.mef.ki.se Anders Wennerberg YYN
ac...@astral.msk.su Andrew A. Chernov YYY
ad...@kona.wes.army.mil Paul Adams NNN
add...@leland.Stanford.EDU Brett Rogers YYY
A...@gnv.ifas.ufl.edu Andrew Cockburn YYY
aha...@bigbang.astro.indiana.edu Alec Habig YYY
aips%sir...@sirius.astro.uiuc.edu uiuc aips -N-
al19...@academ01.mty.itesm.mx Eugenio Sanchez YYY
ala...@mfs01.cc.monash.edu.au Anthony Almond YYY
al...@ouvaxa.cats.ohiou.edu Melissa Anne Algeo YYN
al...@rogue.com Alva B Powell YYY
ama...@iesd.auc.dk Per Abrahamsen YYY
amb...@epx.cis.umn.edu Amberle S Ferrian YYN
and...@uss-enterprise.bu.edu Anders M Jorgensen NNN
and...@apollo.is.co.za Andras Salamon YYN
Andrew...@Eng.Sun.COM Andy Roach NNN
And...@ajwimble.demon.co.uk Andrew Wimble YYY
andrew@gargoyle Andrew Ruthven YYY
an...@harlequin.com Andy Latto YYY
ante...@informatik.tu-muenchen.de STefan Antersberger NNN
ao...@yfn.ysu.edu Brennan T. Price NNN
apo...@cs.ucsd.edu Andy Polzer YNY
arc...@cck.coventry.ac.uk Rebecca Archer YYY
arc...@cett.alcatel-alsthom.fr Vincent ARCHER YYY
Arthur...@Smallworld.co.uk Arthur Chance YYY
as...@cs.berkeley.edu Satoshi Asami YYY
atk...@inmos.co.uk Steve Atkins -N-
au...@cs.albany.edu James Ault NNN
aus...@rs1.rrz.Uni-Koeln.DE Dionisius NNN
bai...@hagar.ph.utexas.edu Ed Bailey YYY
bar...@agsm.unsw.edu.au Glen Barnett YYY
ba...@playfair.Stanford.EDU Barry Eynon YYY
ba...@isi.com Rob Bates NNN
bh...@andrew.cmu.edu Brian Hixon YYY
b...@kidd.vet.purdue.edu Ben J Jackson YYY
b...@herbison.com B.J. Herbison YYY
boe...@cwis.unomaha.edu John Boelter Y--
bo...@nucmar.physics.fsu.edu Roger Books YYY
bosc...@maroon.tc.umn.edu Greg Robinson YYY
boui...@cs.uni-sb.de Peter G. Bouillon YYN
bou...@netcom.com Thomas Boutell YYY
b...@ltpsun.gsfc.nasa.gov Brian Kirouac YYY
bug...@bronze.lcs.mit.edu Aliza R. Panitz YYY
by...@netcom.com Ben Byer YYY
by...@clt.fx.net Paul Byrne YYY
c...@muffin.apana.org.au Craig Sanders YYY
cast...@fireant.ma.utexas.edu Sharon L. Casteel YYY
ccar...@nyx.cs.du.edu Charles Carroll YYY
ccc_...@rzmain.rz.uni-ulm.de Anton J. Gamel YYY
cher...@semprini.waterloo-rdp.on.ca Chris Herborth YYY
cjac...@csugrad.cs.vt.edu Chris Jackson NNN
ck...@andrew.cmu.edu Carl Klemmer YYY
cma...@osiris.ac.hmc.edu Chris Marble YYY
com...@prism.gatech.edu Benjamin L. Combee YYY
cr...@rlyeh.hna.com.au Craig Barnett YYY
cr...@cus.cam.ac.uk Colin Bell -NN
cri...@sol.cms.uncwil.edu Ned T. Crigler YYY
cro...@ophelia.cs.Colorado.EDU Matthew Crosby YYY
crou...@flidh102.delcoelect.com Kenneth P. Crouch, Jr. NNN
crw...@mfs01.cc.monash.edu.au Cameron Walker -Y-
cwhe...@alsvid.scu.edu.au Chris Wheeler YYY
d90...@nada.kth.se YYY
d...@ivu-berlin.de Dirk Ahrens NNN
Daniel....@math.lsa.umich.edu Daniel Kirkwood NNN
da...@q.crossaccess.com Dan Pass YYY
david%c-...@sed.csc.com David R. Ristau NNN
dav...@vivaldi.pen.tek.com David Eby YYY
dbas...@bronze.ucs.indiana.edu D. Michael Basinger YYN
d...@utkux.utcc.utk.edu David DeLaney YYY
de...@lore.kla.com Dean Dierschow YYY
ded...@info.win.tue.nl Boudewijn Wayers YYY
del...@xn.ll.mit.edu John R. Delaney YYY
de...@ccr-p.ida.org David desJardins NNN
dg...@po.CWRU.Edu David G. Kahane YYY
dgos...@cs.uml.edu Dave Gosselin YYY
dgr...@osiris.ac.hmc.edu David Green YYY
dix...@Access.Mountain.Net Meredith Dixon YYY
DL...@waikato.ac.nz Douglas Davey YYY
dmeh...@sirius.astro.uiuc.edu David Mehringer -N-
domi...@ucunix.san.uc.EDU Roger N. Dominick YYY
do...@netcom.com Tom Holub NNN
DOW...@aa.wl.com Andrew Dowswell YYY
dra...@minerva.cis.yale.edu Rebecca Drayer YYY
d...@citi.umich.edu Dan Hyde YYY
dta...@pitt.edu David M. Tate YYY
dw...@tog-1s.hac.com David L. Wright YYY
eap...@orion.oac.uci.edu Charles Y Beilin YNY
eck...@ferris.cray.com Dale Eckart YYY
Edward_S...@mindlink.bc.ca Edward Swatschek YYY
eef...@prism.gatech.edu Richard Kenan YYY
ei...@netmarket.com Eiji Hirai YYY
en...@cs.tu-berlin.de Rene Reichardt YYY
er...@cs.montana.edu Eric McWhorter -N-
eyh...@garnet.berkeley.edu Eugene Hung YYY
f1t...@uta.fi Topi Ylinen YY-
f...@cs.st-andrews.ac.uk Fraser Stewart YYY
fed...@acca.nmsu.edu Stephen Briggs YYY
for...@ihlpf.att.com Scott Forbes YYY
Frank_Bunts...@email.mot.com Frank Buntschuh NNN
fro...@sci.kun.nl Frodo Looijaard YYY
FSP...@acad3.alaska.edu Patrick Miles Cox II YYY
fs...@camelot.acf-lab.alaska.edu Sean P. Ryan YYN
ga...@hpdmd48.boi.hp.com Garth Schmeling NNN
geh...@pib1.physik.uni-bonn.de YYY
genisco.gtc.com!d...@moe.rice.edu David L. Markowitz YYY
George...@lambada.oit.unc.edu George Harris YYY
ger...@cs.vu.nl Gerben Vos YYY
gl...@ntrust.org.uk Glyn Simpson NNN
GOUS...@CRF.CUIS.EDU Nick Gouskos NNN
grab...@math.harvard.edu David Grabiner YYY
gra...@barnowl.demon.co.uk Graham Murray YYY
gran...@joe.math.uga.edu Jon Grantham NNN
gt6...@prism.gatech.edu Sean Kilpatrick (gt6...@prism.gatech.edu) YYY
gt6...@prism.gatech.edu S.F. Eley YYY
gt8...@prism.gatech.edu YYY
ha...@sloth.equinox.gen.nz Phil Anderson YYY
hay...@krypton.mankato.msus.edu Robert A. Hayden NNN
h...@red-eft.la.ca.us Harris Boldt Edelman NNN
HD0022%ALBNYVM...@UACSC2.ALBANY.EDU Chip Dunham NNN
hom...@imagitex.com Carl Hommel YYY
hs...@ludd.luth.se Roger Hakansson YYY
ian...@research.canon.oz.au Ian Rae YYY
infi...@CMU.EDU Charles William Swiger YYY
iw...@cus.cam.ac.uk Ian Jackson YYY
ja...@radar.demon.co.uk Jason B. Faultless -Y-
jch...@leland.Stanford.EDU James Chokey YYY
jda...@nyx10.cs.du.edu John P. Darrow YYY
j...@neocad.com Dave Bunte YYY
j...@db.toronto.edu John DiMarco NNN
jeff...@jhunix.hcf.jhu.edu Jeffrey A. Goodson YYY
jep...@herbie.unl.edu Jeff Epler YYY
jfo...@dorsai.dorsai.org Joseph Fortt YYY
j...@maths.nottingham.ac.uk j preen YYY
jhp...@eos.ncsu.edu Jerrold H. Pace YNY
j...@cs.tu-berlin.de Jon S. YYY
ji...@statsci.com Jimbo Harris NNN
ji...@eecs.umich.edu Jim J. Jewett YYY
jjfe...@relief.com John Feiler YYY
j...@ugcs.caltech.edu Jacob L. Mandelson YY-
jmc...@aflif.wpafb.af.mil John McGinn YYY
Joshua....@Dartmouth.EDU Joshua R. Nelson YYY
jrap...@libserv1.ic.sunysb.edu Jill Rappaport --Y
jsan...@sun.sws.uiuc.edu John Sanders YYY
jsla...@vipunen.hut.fi Jukka S. Lahtinen -N-
jus...@cco.caltech.edu Justin Fang YYY
jw...@rsg1.er.usgs.gov Janet Walz YYY
jwo...@khoros.unm.edu Jeremy Worley YYY
j_he...@oz.plymouth.edu Jay Herlihy (Axl) NNN
ka...@ankh-morpork.hacktic.nl Karen Plomp -N-
Kari....@fmi.fi Kari E. Hurtta YYY
kar...@kom.auc.dk Karsten Thygesen YYY
kasa...@csce.kyushu-u.ac.jp Yoshiaki KASAHARA YYY
Ken....@Corp.Sun.COM Kenneth Hauck NNN
KE...@DIRAC.PHYSICS.JMU.EDU Kent Peterson YYY
Kevin.H...@m.cc.utah.edu Kevin Humphries YYY
khe...@ms.uky.edu Kenneth Herron YYN
kjet...@ifi.uio.no Kjetil T. Homme YYY
k...@gwis.circ.gwu.edu Karen L Joe --N
koco...@acsu.buffalo.edu Kevin O'Connor YYY
kr...@cs.wisc.edu Kregg T. Brooks YYY
kr...@sieus2.enet.dec.com Matthias Kring YYY
kssi...@immd4.informatik.uni-erlangen.de Klaus Singvogel NNN
kwth...@nsslsun.nssl.uoknor.edu Kevin W. Thomas NNN
L1...@ZFN.UNI-BREMEN.DE Martin Schr"oder YYY
la...@Tudor.Com Larry Winer YYY
lavo...@eng.utah.edu Ville Lavonius YYY
lb...@malibu.dst.battelle.org Larry Babb YYY
l...@contec.COM Leonard Mills YYY
link...@atkk.ptl.fi Topi Linkala YYY
ma...@ucrengr.UCR.EDU Mario A. Calderon YYY
Mark-...@deshaw.com Mark Moraes YYY
mar...@iris.kth.dk Martin Liversage YYY
ma...@io.com maus YYY
m...@greyskul.intel.com Mike Northam YYY
Mck...@aol.com Sean YYY
mcsc...@zippy.dct.ac.uk Doctor Spock YYY
m...@shell.portal.com Michael Chastain YYY
m...@ac.duke.edu Michael Grubb YYY
mi...@mailhost.cs.pdx.edu Mike Harvey YYY
mi...@rbg.informatik.th-darmstadt.de Walter Misar NNN
mjef...@reed.edu Mark Jefferys YYY
mjsh...@nyx.cs.du.edu Michael Shields YYY
mk...@hermes1.econ.uni-hamburg.de Michael Shani Kim -Y-
mmha...@cs.ruu.nl Maarten Hazewinkel YYY
m...@RedBrick.COM Maxime Taksar YYY
mne...@cis.udel.edu Mark Nelson YYY
mne...@engin.umich.edu Michael K Neylon YYY
m...@df.lth.se Magnus Olsson YYY
mor...@cegt201.bradley.edu Chuck Kocian YYY
mpb...@cs.weber.edu Martin Burke NNN
mp...@itd.dsto.gov.au Michael T Pope YYY
m...@spcklm.mpifr-bonn.mpg.de Markus Schoeller YYY
mste...@whale.st.usm.edu Mike Stewart --Y
mug...@alumni.caltech.edu Asim Mughal YYY
mza...@acs.ucalgary.ca Mark Zaugg YYY
nak...@ms.washington.edu Paul Nakayu --Y
ne...@SPARKY.IAC.HONEYWELL.COM Richard D. Neal YYY
ne...@khoros.unm.edu Neil Bowers YYY
ne...@leland.Stanford.EDU Matthew Newby YYY
nie...@cs.indiana.edu John Nienart YYY
oo...@snakemail.hut.fi Petri (O}cke) Oikarinen YYY
ot...@tukki.jyu.fi Otto J. Makela YYY
ouz...@cck.coventry.ac.uk J Murdock YYY
p00...@psilink.com Dennis Parslow YYY
p01...@psilink.com Duncan J Watson YYY
Pauli...@hut.fi Pauli R{m| YYY
pa...@owl.csrv.uidaho.edu Paul Rumelhart YYY
per...@hsr.no Per A Amundsen -NN
pe...@cs.uni-sb.de Peter Schwarz YNY
phil...@bright.uoregon.edu Chris Phillips YYY
phi...@freak.nullnet.fi Sami Laine YYY
p...@dcs.ed.ac.uk Paul J Murphy YYY
pt...@po.CWRU.Edu Palmer Davis NNN
qu...@phoenix.Princeton.EDU Michael Quinn YYY
ra...@ark.btbg.sub.de Ralf W. Stephan YYY
ren...@bruce.cs.monash.edu.au Robert Rendell YYY
r...@po.CWRU.Edu Riley Wilson YYY
ric...@purplex.nacjack.gen.nz Richard Knuckey YYY
ri...@bcm.tmc.edu Richard Miller NNN
riku.sa...@compart.fi Riku Saikkonen YYY
rjo...@us.oracle.com Brad Jones YYY
r...@epcc.ed.ac.uk Rob Baxter YYY
r...@cad4.lbl.gov Robert J. McNamara YYY
Robert....@zfe.siemens.de Robert Rehbold YYY
rob...@cs.arizona.edu Robert J Macomber -YY
rob...@blaise.ibp.fr Ollivier Robert YYY
rode...@ibcinc.com Roderick Schertler <rode...@ibcinc.com> YYY
ro...@csi.on.ca Roger Sumner YYY
r...@mpd.tandem.com Ron Boerger NNN
ron...@cisco.com Ronnie B. Kon YYY
r...@CS.Stanford.EDU Russ Allbery YYY
rrus...@nyx10.cs.du.edu Bob Rusbasan YYY
rsch...@iastate.edu YYY
rud...@cis.umassd.edu Lee Rudolph YYY
rwat...@crl.com Ron Watkins YYY
s.sc...@lha.zer.sub.org Stefan Schwoon -N-
SAA...@vms.cis.pitt.edu Seyed A. Alavizadeh NNN
schy...@connected.com Schyler Batey YYY
scy...@stein.u.washington.edu Daniel Shiovitz YYY
se2...@bristol.ac.uk Matt Clonfero YYY
seku...@MIT.EDU Scott E Kullberg YYY
sg...@andrew.cmu.edu Samuel Greenfield YYY
sh...@netcom.com Shadow YYY
sjs...@cs.UMD.EDU Stephen Joseph Smith YYY
skar...@cc.helsinki.fi Samuli K{rkk{inen YYY
sl...@pi.cs.fsu.edu Michael Sloan YYY
sma...@titan.ucs.umass.edu Ira Smailer YYY
sma...@turing.toronto.edu Marc Moorcroft NNN
sol...@netcom.com Andrew Solovay YYY
SPA...@physics.umr.edu Richard Sparrow YYY
sriv...@pilgrim.umass.edu Manoj Srivastava YYY
sros...@cc.helsinki.fi Sami Rosenblad YYY
sst...@cs.ep.utexas.EDU Stephen Stair -Y-
stai...@bga.com Dwight Brown NNN
Stig....@pvv.unit.no Stig S{ther Bakken YYY
st...@neptune.ucsf.edu Thomas J. Stout YYY
stre...@ucssun1.sdsu.edu Stewart Stremler YYN
swa...@CMU.EDU David Reeve Sward YYY
swil...@channelz.gun.de Sascha Wildner YYY
sy...@tukki.jyu.fi Veli-Pekka Tahvanainen -YY
sy...@tjuvm.tju.edu Sukumar Patel YYY
tek...@kaiwan.com Paul Moore YYY
thak...@vipunen.hut.fi Timo Hakulinen NNN
tho...@maths.tcd.ie Thomas Bridge YYY
Timo....@hut.fi Timo J. Rinne YYY
tma...@awadi.com.AU Tony Mason YYY
t...@world.std.com Tom Breton YYN
to...@POOL.Informatik.RWTH-Aachen.DE Thomas Stockheim YYY
twpi...@unix.amherst.edu Tim Pierce NNN
TX...@ISUVAX.IASTATE.EDU Robert S. Claney -N-
t_ya...@hoffman.cc.sophia.ac.jp YAMASHIKI Tsuyoshi NNN
U28...@UICVM.UIC.EDU Eloise Beltz-Decker -N-
UDA...@BAY.CC.KCL.AC.UK Harry Johnston YYY
Ulf....@kvatro.no Ulf Lunde YYY
vali...@cc.helsinki.fi Mika V{liviita YYY
ver...@math.harvard.edu Misha Verbitsky YYN
vo...@diku.dk Morten V. Christiansen YY-
WA...@ernie.van.forintek.ca Ward F. Bush NNN
w...@roka.de Wilhelm Buehler YYY
wbra...@thor.ece.uc.edu William Bradley YYY
wha...@tauceti.uta.edu Billy Harris NNN
whi...@MIT.EDU Michael Powers NNN
wil...@erc.cat.syr.edu Maynard Wilcox YYY
wil...@infoserv.com Wilhelm Bock YYY
wil...@ms.uky.edu Nick Wilhelm-Olsen YYY
will...@vmark.co.uk Pete Williams YYY
wi...@cs.rpi.edu Witek Szymanski YYY
wiz...@tower.nullnet.fi Mikko Hanninen YYY
wom...@nfinit.enet.dec.com Christopher M. Conway YYY
wsb...@urc.tue.nl Wayers, B.H.F.M. YYY
wsbu...@urc.tue.nl Kees van Tol YYY
zel...@ips.cs.tu-bs.de Andreas Zeller YYY
Votes in error
------------------------------------------------------------------------------
mbl...@mdw032.cc.monash.edu.au The ELF
! No vote statement in message
yees...@CMU.EDU Bobby Yee
! No vote statement in message