A personal goodbye
Russ Allbery
Hash: SHA1
With this post, I'm formally stepping down as news.announce.newgroups
moderator, and shortly after making it I will be unsubscribing from
news.groups, probably permanently.
I grew up on news.groups.
I arrived there for the first time as a college freshman in 1993, full of
wild political ideas, only barely knowing how to communicate effectively,
not knowing how to argue, not knowing how to see anything from another's
perspective. I promptly dove into the middle of the flamewar around the
soc.culture.tibet proposal, got angry, cared too much, hated the result,
and left. And then came back and stayed.
I hope some of you who are reading this know what it's like to be part of
a discussion community. I hope you've experienced a newsgroup becoming
more than a label, felt a newsgroup become a place, joined a community of
strangers connected by nothing more than words on a screen. Joined by
nothing less than months and years of people's thoughts, desires,
emotions, dreams, and frustrations given life and shape in the interaction
of those words and the fleeting glimmers of the people behind them.
People have formed those communities on Usenet around all types of topics
from the shape of their relationships to collectable card games, around
comic books and Christianity, about science fiction and soap operas. And
many of them have found one particular community that drew them more than
others, that felt like their home, that became more than a topic, that
personified Usenet for them.
news.groups was my community. I'm not sure how that happened, or even how
it was possible. It was a working group, a group with a purpose. A place
people came to, used for often unpleasant and tedious arguments, and then
left again. It was a place that many Usenet readers hated to deal with.
And yet, somehow, it formed a community, a raucous, discordant, often
frustrated, sometimes angry, and always divided community, a community
that sometimes existed only in retrospect, that was so full of day-to-day
frustration that it often felt like more than one could bear. It was a
community full of people with nothing in common except that they cared
about Usenet, cared about how Usenet was built, and one day wandered into
news.groups and never got around to leaving. We had few interests in
common, we disagreed vehemently about the direction of Usenet, and we
carried standing grudges that lasted years. We were news.groupies.
It wasn't quite friendly. I never went to any in-person gathering. Our
social net was faint and twisted compared to many other newsgroups.
You could never quite let down your guard. And yet I met people in
news.groups, through news.groups, with whom I could let down my guard
completely. Some of the most trustworthy, most caring, most clear-sighted
and infuriating and helpful and thought-provoking and honorable people I
have ever met I met in news.groups. I was welcomed and listened to and
trusted by that community, slapped around when I needed it, and pushed
into deciding what kind of person I wanted to be.
Thank you.
Thank you to everyone who was or is part of that community. Thank you to
everyone who came to news.groups to argue for your proposal. Thank you to
every news administrator who cared and made what we were trying to do feel
worthwhile. Thank you to every person who posted to Usenet, who read
Usenet, who worked on the code and the systems and the infrastructure that
made a network exist where news.groups could exist, where that community
could exist, where I could be a part of it.
Thank you for letting me bleed in the group when I cared about something
so much it hurt. Thank you for watching me fumble towards learning what
consensus meant. Thank you for teaching me how to debate, for teaching me
how to stop debating, for teaching me how to let things roll off and for
watching and reacting and arguing when they didn't. Thank you for filling
my world with people who didn't care about what I cared about, who didn't
believe in what I believed in, who didn't think the way that I did, and
yet who were real and present and didn't change or disappear just because
I disagreed with them. Thank you for watching me fail and fail and fail
again at understanding someone whose concerns were outside my world view,
and then making me feel like the occasional small successes actually meant
something. Thank you for teaching me how to de-escalate arguments by
giving me a place to fail more times than I can count. Thank you for
teaching me how to let enemies become friends.
I have tried to pay forward what Usenet did for me, but I will never be
able to repay what news.groups has given me over the past thirteen years.
I would not be the person I am today without that experience. For each of
my failures of understanding, of mediation, of honest apology and mutual
understanding that you have suffered through here, I can point to a
success in the rest of my life that wouldn't have been possible without
you. You gave me a space to discover the person I became. It's a gift
without measure.
Leaving this community has been one of the hardest decisions I have ever
made. This wasn't a job, this wasn't just work, this wasn't just social
obligation. This was, as hard as it was to hold on to the feeling each
day, a home. I'm one of the last still here of my peer group. The
community has changed. The concerns have changed. I see Usenet still as
a Usenet of 1998, the Usenet of a community of people who have since
scattered to the four winds or even, in some cases, passed away. It's
time to let go. And still, when I walk away, there's going to be a
news.groups-sized hole in my heart, and nothing else will ever quite fill
it.
Letting go has hurt, and I've bled that hurt and emotion into news.groups,
and in the process I've made life harder for some others, have made Usenet
less of a community for them. For that I am profoundly sorry. I didn't
do this easily, or well. It's the last bit of growing up on news.groups
that I'll get to do.
I write best when I'm angry, when I'm upset. I'm not sure I can express
gratitude, or warmth, or happy memories with anywhere near the power that
they deserve. I've tried to write about Usenet in anger and in
melancholy, in happiness and sorrow, and I've still never captured what it
means to me. The closest that I've ever come are also two of the darkest,
and yet still the most true.
<http://www.eyrie.org/~eagle/writing/rant.html>
<http://www.eyrie.org/~eagle/writing/community.html>
That same strength of emotion is behind the gratitude, inside the
memories, in this message. I cannot name all the people from news.groups
who have touched me and made my life better. There have been so many that
I've lost count.
I have been honored to be part of this for the past thirteen years. What
we did mattered. The community was real, even if we never talked about
it. The emotions were real, even if we rarely posted them. I will miss
you all greatly.
Eagle bows
Salutes the dance partner
Reluctantly takes flight
-- Russ Allbery
September 30, 2006
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Alan Connor
Allbery" wrote:
> With this post, I'm formally stepping down as
> news.announce.newgroups moderator, and shortly after making it
> I will be unsubscribing from news.groups, probably permanently.
<snip>
I didn't you know you as anyone but a pro who helped a lot of
people on news.software.nntp (which I read religiously but seldom
post on), but was moved by your article.
Thanks for the work you've done for the Usenet.
Fare-thee-well.
Alan
--
http://home.earthlink.net/~alanconnor/contact.html
http://home.earthlink.net/~alanconnor/cr.html
http://home.earthlink.net/~alanconnor/publickey.html
Jayne Kulikauskas
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>
> With this post, I'm formally stepping down as news.announce.newgroups
> moderator, and shortly after making it I will be unsubscribing from
> news.groups, probably permanently.
[...]
Goodbye and thank you.
--
Jayne
David Ritz
In article <11596611...@isc.org>,
Russ Allbery <r...@stanford.edu> wrote:
rra> I have been honored to be part of this for the past thirteen
rra> years. What we did mattered. The community was real, even if
rra> we never talked about it. The emotions were real, even if we
rra> rarely posted them. I will miss you all greatly.
Russ,
While not strictly a member of the news.groups community, my
connection to you is through the larger community of Usenet. I
freely acknowledge, that I learned enormously from you and
consider you a mentor.
I simply do not have the words, to express my esteem, respect and
appreciation, for your years of dedication to that community,
frequently under the most adverse and contentious of conditions.
Your patience, thoughtfulness and dedication, to this ethereal
community, sets an outstanding example for those who give a
damn, about one of the most extraordinary of all forums.
Thank you. We (tiaw) will miss you.
rra> Eagle bows
rra> Salutes the dance partner
rra> Reluctantly takes flight
This shark returns Eagle's salute, with a long, slow, and deeply
respectful salute of homage.
- --
David Ritz <dritz+...@suespammers.org>
Be kind to animals; kiss a shark.
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K. A. Cannon
wrote:
<snip>
> I will miss you all greatly.
Not nearly as much a the UseNet community will miss you.
> Eagle bows
> Salutes the dance partner
> Reluctantly takes flight
<snip a buncha stuff I wrote...but thought this is better>
There was a very strong hand on the tiller...now it's gone.
Where does the ship go when the Captain goes away?
--
K. A. Cannon
kcannon at insurgent dot org
(change the orgy to org to reply)
Don't worry about the world coming to an end today.
It's already tomorrow in Australia.
-Charles Schultz
Geoff Berrow
following:
>With this post, I'm formally stepping down as news.announce.newgroups
>moderator, and shortly after making it I will be unsubscribing from
>news.groups, probably permanently.
Well we all might as well do that, now that stuff just goes through on
the nod and discussion means nothing.
Some legacy.
--
Geoff Berrow (put thecat out to email)
It's only Usenet, no one dies.
My opinions, not the (uk.*) commitee's, mine.
Dave Ratcliffe
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>
>With this post, I'm formally stepping down as news.announce.newgroups
>moderator, and shortly after making it I will be unsubscribing from
>news.groups, probably permanently.
[snip]
>I have been honored to be part of this for the past thirteen years. What
>we did mattered. The community was real, even if we never talked about
>it. The emotions were real, even if we rarely posted them. I will miss
>you all greatly.
Russ, for all you did, and tried to do, my eternal thanks. You will be
missed.
Dave
2Rowdy
by the entity known as Dave Ratcliffe, that requests spam to be sent
to <dave...@hotmail.com> and I became inspired,
Yep.
--
d:J0han; Certifiable me http://2rowdy.aacity.net
They killed the Credo. Viva el Credo!
Dave Williams
> Well we all might as well do that, now that stuff just goes through on
> the nod and discussion means nothing.
>
> Some legacy.
That's a tad ungracious. Russ has done a lot for the community over the
years - he's earned his retirement, and I can completely understand why
he's off.
That said, the big8 key is gone from the server I run. Not uncommented
- gone. I don't see it coming back while I'm there. I might actually
have had less problems with what's actually happened if the b8mb
had gone out and done what any new hierarchy does and set out with
a new key and done the whole news.admin.hierarchies and lobbying
admins thing rather than trying to run on sheer inertia - but
regardless :
I don't believe the current system gives me any reason to follow the
management board's decisions - I'll add stuff on request (I've not had
any requests so far) - but given the madness in here over the past couple
of months over *one* newsgroup I can't convince myself that any sensible
decision making process can follow from what's here now.
Like Russ, I'm unsubscribing in a little while. Thank you Russ. I'm
sorry it didn't work out better.
Dave
BM
some of the same experiences and histories expressed in this message apply to some of
us on SCL. There are many newcomers to SCL who think of SCL as yet another web forum.
In doing so they miss entirely the purpose and history of SCL and what makes SCL different
than say a yahoo group or a FPM discussion forum.
I have been part of the SCL from the beginning and fully expect SCL to outlive me.
Such is the nature of the beast (affectionately speaking) that we have created.
To the SCL nay sayers, I repost the following.
bassem
Rob Kelk
Hash: SHA1
On Sat, 30 Sep 2006 17:05:42 -0700, Russ Allbery <r...@stanford.edu>
wrote:
>With this post, I'm formally stepping down as news.announce.newgroups
>moderator, and shortly after making it I will be unsubscribing from
>news.groups, probably permanently.
(de-lurks)
I can't blame Russ for taking this step.
For the longest time, this was a place where things happened. But
recently, personal interests have ended up poisoning the well, and this
has become a place where individuals with an axe to grind post
ridiculous statements about the process and expect people to agree with
them. (Wayne "it must be exactly like two decades ago, never mind the
radically-different type of Usenet user now" Brown and Geoff "it must
be exactly like uk.*, never mind the order-of-magnitude size
difference" Berrow come to mind immediately, but they aren't the only
ones.) And anyone who does show up willing to help gets driven away by
all of those people with axes to grind.
There were a few voices of reason throughout this period, but most of
them are gone now. Russ has just left, ru igarshi has been gone for a
while (for unrelated reasons, but he's still gone), Brian Edmonds
almost never posts, Chris Lewis hasn't been here for years... Marty
Moleski's the only obvious voice of reason left here, IMHO.
I don't know how to fix this. I don't know whether it *can* be fixed
short of hand-moderating news.groups, which IMHO would be a Bad Idea.
I do know that there's not much reason to stay subscribed here, now
that <http://www.big-8.org/> exists and the faq-maintainers ML has been
revived.
As a rant goes, this is pretty pitiful. I don't rant much; I'm out of
practice - sorry about that. But I think it says what I wanted to say
about the state of affairs here.
I won't go back to lurking; I'm going to follow Russ' example. So long
and thanks for all the fish.
(Followups set to "poster" - all e-mail delivered to that address is
deleted unread.)
- --
Rob Kelk Personal address (ROT-13): eboxryx -ng- tznvy -qbg- pbz
Any Usenet message claiming to be from me but posted from any server
other than individual.net is a forgery. Please filter out such
messages if you have the capability.
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Andrew - Supernews
[snip]
Both from a personal point of view as a Usenet user, and from a
professional point of view as part of the operations team of a commercial
Usenet provider, I'd like to thank you for everything you've done over
the years to help and maintain Usenet as a whole, and the big-8 in
particular.
--
Andrew, Supernews
http://www.supernews.com - individual and corporate NNTP services
wkro...@sunstroke.sdsu.edu
Thank you, Russ. Thank you for your time, hard work and patience for so
many years. I know you have put your heart into this place. Your
presences, your level headed thinking and your honesty will surely be
missed. With all my respect, thank you.
Bill
Andrew - Supernews
> That said, the big8 key is gone from the server I run. Not uncommented
> - gone. I don't see it coming back while I'm there.
I think this reaction is unjustified, and I also don't think it is at all
beneficial for Usenet or for Usenet users, so accordingly the key stays
firmly in place here.
I do not think the b8mb is at all to blame for the problems with
news.groups as a forum, and I think that they have as good a chance at
being able to do a useful job in spite of it as anyone has. Fixing the
problems with news.groups itself may be beyond them, but again I'm not
seeing any more promising alternatives.
> I might actually
> have had less problems with what's actually happened if the b8mb
> had gone out and done what any new hierarchy does and set out with
> a new key and done the whole news.admin.hierarchies and lobbying
> admins thing
I think that would probably have been the most totally irresponsible
approach to the problem that I can imagine.
The holders of the existing key had, as I see it, a duty to us (= those
newsadmins who were honouring that key) not to abandon it when the old
system became unworkable, but to pass it on for use by the the most
promising alternative system. Knowing (as you and I both do) how small a
proportion of sites actually pay the slightest attention to n.a.h or to
changes in Usenet structure in general, the only effect of forcing a
change in key would be to further cripple what remains of the system.
Geoff Berrow
the following:
>> Well we all might as well do that, now that stuff just goes through on
>> the nod and discussion means nothing.
>>
>> Some legacy.
>
>That's a tad ungracious. Russ has done a lot for the community over the
>years - he's earned his retirement, and I can completely understand why
>he's off.
Ungracious maybe. I did not mean to imply Russ had not done a lot for
the community. On the contrary, the fact that he /has/ makes it all the
more remarkable that he should (IMO) fumble the ball at the last moment.
James Farrar
<bobof...@127.0.0.7> wrote:
>Drop the key is the only correct thing to do The self-selection
>process of the board, and the resignation of members shows this
>management board is flawed, and flawed from the start. Rather than
>made up from interested members of the community, it is a small board
>created out of self serving members, a few yes men, rubber stamps and
>flappers which infected the old news group.
In other words, "my trolling hasn't stopped things happening, so I'll
continue to throw around unwarranted personal insults".
You can rest assured that I consider your opinion as highly as your
conduct merits.
--
James Farrar
. @gmail.com
Tom Galloway
(at least as close as Usenet could get to such), chronologically following
the Backbone Cabal, Spaf, and Tale. Although, if pressed, I'd have to rank
Spaf's level of contribution a bit below the other three in terms of either
sheer power/responsibility or longevity.
At any rate, Russ has had custody of a usually thankless, and certainly
subject of multiple flames and kook attacks, position for quite some
time. While he writes that he feels it helped shape what he's become, it's
also the case that it's involved a *lot* of volunteer and frustrating work
over the years.
So it's certainly time that those of us who've benefited by his work over
many more years than anyone should've had to put up with the hassles give
him public thanks for doing so. While he and I've certainly had our share of
disagreements on how Usenet should work, at least from my end I knew that
even if I disagreed with him on specifics, Russ had Usenet's best interests
at heart.
Thanks Russ.
tyg t...@Panix.com
--
--Yes, the .sig has changed
Kathy Morgan
> With this post, I'm formally stepping down as news.announce.newgroups
> moderator, and shortly after making it I will be unsubscribing from
> news.groups, probably permanently.
Thank you for all your good work here and all the other work you've done
over the years for Usenet. I'm sorry to see you go and I appreciate all
the contributions you've made.
--
Kathy - If you're reading this in your web browser from Google or
similar forum, NNTP "newsreaders" are a better way to access the
content. <http://www.aptalaska.net/~kmorgan/how-it-works.html>
Links to NNTP newsreaders at <http://www.newsreaders.com/>
James Farrar
<bobof...@127.0.0.7> wrote:
>How does it feel to be a rubber stamp for a immature over grown
>little boy?
If I *were* a rubber stamp, I would have resigned already.
Besides, why are you accusing me of being a rubber stamp for you?
dvus
> With this post, I'm formally stepping down as news.announce.newgroups
> moderator, and shortly after making it I will be unsubscribing from
> news.groups, probably permanently.
A great loss for Usenet, but likely a good thing for both your mental and
physical well-being.
Good Luck...
--
dvus
James Farrar
<bobof...@127.0.0.7> wrote:
>On Mon, 02 Oct 2006 09:55:40 +0100, in news.groups, James Farrar
><james.s...@gmail.com> wrote:
>
>>On Sun, 01 Oct 2006 22:29:29 -0700, Bob Officer
>><bobof...@127.0.0.7> wrote:
>>
>>>How does it feel to be a rubber stamp for a immature over grown
>>>little boy?
>>
>>If I *were* a rubber stamp, I would have resigned already.
>
>Jimmy is that ink all over your face?
>
>
>>Besides, why are you accusing me of being a rubber stamp for you?
>
>Jimmy you're funny, but don't quit you day job... because you're not
>that funny. The "little boy" is a direct reference to Timmay... but
>then any old net hand has to be good a selective edited...
And now you're adressing third parties. I think we'll leave it there.
Chris Barnes
> With this post, I'm formally stepping down as news.announce.newgroups
> moderator, and shortly after making it I will be unsubscribing from
> news.groups, probably permanently.
This reaffirms my belief that usenet itself is in its dying last days
(which like many slow, terminal illnesses, may indeed go on for several
years now).
It is sad, but it IS the normal course of things.
Thank you Russ, for making it such a viable, useful medium during your
stay.
--
+ + + + + + + + + + + + + + + + + + + + + + + + + + + + + + + + +
Chris Barnes AOL IM: CNBarnes
ch...@txbarnes.com Yahoo IM: chrisnbarnes
You always have freedom of choice, but you never have freedom of
consequence.
Jonathan Kamens
>This reaffirms my belief that usenet itself is in its dying last days
>(which like many slow, terminal illnesses, may indeed go on for several
>years now).
IDotNP. Fa11!
--
Help stop the genocide in Darfur!
http://www.genocideintervention.net/
Michael Alan Chary
Chris Barnes <ch...@txbarnes.com> wrote:
>Russ Allbery <r...@stanford.edu> wrote:
>> With this post, I'm formally stepping down as news.announce.newgroups
>> moderator, and shortly after making it I will be unsubscribing from
>> news.groups, probably permanently.
>
>
>This reaffirms my belief that usenet itself is in its dying last days
>(which like many slow, terminal illnesses, may indeed go on for several
>years now).
>
>It is sad, but it IS the normal course of things.
Imminent Death of the Net predicted! GIFs at 11!
--
The All-New, All-Different Howling Curmudgeons!
http://www.whiterose.org/howlingcurmudgeons
Stig Sandbeck Mathisen
>With this post, I'm formally stepping down as news.announce.newgroups
>moderator
I'd like to thank you for the work you've done, and wish you luck on
your future endeavours.
--
Stig Sandbeck Mathisen
Newsadmins Anonymous
Kadaitcha Man
> This message was cancelled from within Mozilla.
Cunt.
--
alt.usenet.kooks - Pierre Salinger Memorial Hook, Line & Sinker:
September 2005 and April 2006
"K-Man's particular genius, however, lies not merely in his humour,
but his ability to make posters who had previously seemed reasonably
well-balanced turn into foaming, frothing, death threat-uttering
maniacs" - Snarky, Demon Lord of Confusion
Thou jarring degenerate bastard. Thou impotent faithless coward.