RESULT: news.groups.proposals will be created
The Big-8 Management Board
news.groups.proposals will be created
The Last Call for Comments on 08 Nov 2006 inititated a five-day period for
final comments. Following this comment period, the Big-8 Management Board
has decided by consensus to create the newsgroup news.groups.proposals.
This group will be created on 18 Nov 2006.
NEWSGROUPS LINE: news.groups.proposals
news.groups.proposals Development of Big 8 proposals. (Moderated)
CHARTER:
The newsgroup news.groups.proposals is for the announcement, discussion,
and development of proposals for changes to the Big 8 hierarchies, as
documented at:
All official discussion of proposals as described in the creation documents
and elsewhere will take place in news.groups.proposals. Proponents with
active RFDs must conduct their discussions in news.groups.proposals.
Discussions in news.groups.proposals should pertain to specific proposals,
based on a recent RFD published in news.announce.newgroups. Recently
completed proposals may be discussed if, in the judgment of the
moderators, further discussion seems useful, interesting, or informative.
Discussion about the newsgroup creation policies for the Big-8 newsgroup
hierarchies, the Big-8 Management Board, and the history and culture of
the Big-8 and Usenet in general should be posted to news.groups or
elsewhere, unless there is a clear connection to a specific proposal
being discussed in news.groups.proposals.
Crossposting to unmoderated newsgroups relevant to a particular proposal
may be permitted, at the discretion of the moderators. With some
exceptions (such as RFD announcements and FAQs), crossposting to other
moderated groups is not permitted. Content that is not conducive to the
development of a proposal is disallowed, including personal attacks,
derogatory nicknames, repetitive arguments, and flames.
news.groups.proposals is hand-moderated. In addition to the above
restrictions, the following are not allowed:
* Off topic articles, as described above and specifically including:
- Discussion of proposals relating to other hierarchies, such as
alt.* or regional hierarchies.
- Articles about "the news" or other world events.
- General discussions not relating to a specific active proposal.
* Articles with unacceptable content, such as:
- HTML
- Copyright violations
- Excessive quoting
- Threats and/or advocating violence
- Binaries, except PGP signatures, X-Face headers, and other
ancillary meta-data
- Personal and/or commercial advertisements, including chain letters,
money-making schemes, and EMP spam.
* Attempts to subvert the system, such as:
- Forgery or imitation of a valid e-mail address
- Unauthorized approval headers
- Excessive morphing/nym-shifting
MODERATION POLICY: news.groups.proposals
All submissions will be approved or rejected by the moderation team based
on the above criteria. The moderation team will attempt to handle all
submissions promptly, and (as a team) will not knowingly "blackhole" a
poster by taking no action on the person's submissions.
Posting with a non-replyable or "munged" address is strongly discouraged.
If you feel that you must use a munged address, you are encouraged to
append ".invalid" to the end of the munged email address to indicate
that the address is not deliverable even when ".invalid" is stripped from
the end. Users who do not munge their email address will be notified of
rejected submissions via email. Note that submissions may be filtered to
remove spam, spews, and other attacks.
Moderator decisions can be appealed by contacting ngp-...@ngp.big-8.org.
If necessary, the moderation panel will refer the case to the Big-8
Management Board for a final decision.
All substantive modifications to the moderation policy will go through an
RFD/LCC process before implementation.
MODERATOR INFO: news.groups.proposals
Head Moderator: Steve Bonine <s...@pobox.com>
Moderator: Kevin Cannon <kca...@insurgent.org>
Moderator: Doug Freyburger <dfre...@yahoo.com>
Moderator: Aatu Koskensilta <aatu.kos...@xortec.fi>
Moderator: Kathy Morgan <kmo...@aptalaska.net>
Advisory Moderator: Brian Edmonds <br...@big-8.org>
Advisory Moderator: Jonathan Kamens <j...@big-8.org>
Advisory Moderator: Tim Skirvin <tski...@big-8.org>
Article Submissions: n...@ngp.big-8.org
Administrative Contact: ngp-...@ngp.big-8.org
The news.groups.proposals moderation panel consists of volunteers
approved by the Big-8 Management Board.
If the moderation team decides that more members are needed, they may post
an invitation for new volunteers. New members must be approved by vote of
the current moderation team and are subject to veto by the Big-8 Management
Board. The Big-8 Management Board reserves the right to expel members of
the news.groups.proposals moderation panel as necessary.
END MODERATOR INFO
DISTRIBUTION:
This document has been posted to the following newsgroups:
news.announce.newgroups
news.groups
news.admin.announce
news.admin.hierarchies
PROPONENT:
Dave Sill <d...@big-8.org>
Co-Proponent: The Big-8 Management Board <bo...@big-8.org>
CHANGE HISTORY:
2006-11-14 Results
2006-11-08 3rd RFD/LCC
2006-10-23 2nd RFD
2006-10-09 1st RFD
Nicholas Fitzpatrick
Gary L. Burnore <gbur...@databasix.com> wrote:
>
>Was there ever a doubt?
No, not really. Not really sure why we need news.group.anything, as all
arguements fall on death ears.
Moderating this seems like a pretty dumb idea, and not one person offered
a good reason why it was necessary, except to say "the current system
doesn't work" ... which of course is complete bull shit, as clearly the
current system WAS working!
Nor has anyone explained why moderation will actually work, when it so
often fails. How for example will the new group avoid the spam that
has recently crippled the sci.space.news moderated group? Surely this
new group, is going to be a significant target!
Personally, the whole process seems distasteful, and I'm tempted to
hang up my hat and leave news.groups, after a 15 years here.
Nick
Jonathan Kamens
nf...@shell1.sentex.ca (Nicholas Fitzpatrick) writes:
>No, not really. Not really sure why we need news.group.anything, as all
>arguements fall on death ears.
Ah, yes, the old stand-by, "If you don't do as I say, you must
not be listening," one of the chestnuts of fallacious Usenet
argumentation techniques.
>Moderating this seems like a pretty dumb idea, and not one person offered
>a good reason why it was necessary, except to say "the current system
>doesn't work" ... which of course is complete bull shit, as clearly the
>current system WAS working!
Actually, many people offered good reasons why it is
necessary. Apparently, you disagree with them. That is, of
course, your prerogative, just as, amazingly enough, it is the
prerogative of the people on the Board to listen to what you
have to say and disagree with you.
>Nor has anyone explained why moderation will actually work, when it so
>often fails. How for example will the new group avoid the spam that
>has recently crippled the sci.space.news moderated group?
Moderating news.groups.proposals is not intended to prevent
spam, any more than moderating any other group would prevent
spam.
And in any case, I'm puzzled by why any moderated group would
be "crippled" by spam in the era of cleanfeed and similar
anti-spam measures employed by any reputable News Service
Provider.
--
Help stop the genocide in Darfur!
http://www.genocideintervention.net/
saur
> That is, of course, your prerogative, just as, amazingly enough, it is the
> prerogative of the people on the Board to listen to what you have to say
> and disagree with you.
I'll believe the board has bothered to read what I have to say when any of
the points I raised are directly addressed. "Tough" or grammar flames or
attacks on my motives don't make me believe that the responder actually read
and considered what I wrote.
Daryl Hunt
"The Big-8 Management Board" <bo...@big-8.org> wrote in message
news:nan.20061114185205$20...@news.killfile.org...
> RESULT
> news.groups.proposals will be created
>
> The Last Call for Comments on 08 Nov 2006 inititated a five-day period for
> final comments. Following this comment period, the Big-8 Management Board
> has decided by consensus to create the newsgroup news.groups.proposals.
>
> This group will be created on 18 Nov 2006.
You know, timmay, you people are nuts.
Martin X. Moleski, SJ
> Jonathan Kamens <j...@kamens.brookline.ma.us> wrote:
I'm sorely tempted to reply "tough" for the third time.
But I refrain.
Instead let me say that I do not think that all the
points you raise are worth responding to in detail.
I doubt very much that this lengthier response will
persuade you that I have bothered to read what you
have to say.
Tough.
Marty
--
Member of the Big-8 Management Board (B8MB).
See http://www.big-8.org for more information.
Steve Bonine
> Moderation is a exclusionary process.
>
> Anyone that thinks otherwise has ability to think for themselves.
Why thank you, Bob.
Tim Skirvin
nf...@shell1.sentex.ca (Nicholas Fitzpatrick) writes:
> Moderating this seems like a pretty dumb idea, and not one person offered
> a good reason why it was necessary, except to say "the current system
> doesn't work" ... which of course is complete bull shit, as clearly the
> current system WAS working!
Not one person? Surely you exaggerate.
And while I understand that you think that news.groups was working
just fine, I hope that you understand that many of us honestly disagreed
with this assessment. Yes, the system was functioning, but I hope that it
can do a whole lot better by cutting out the underlying nastiness.
> Nor has anyone explained why moderation will actually work, when it so
> often fails.
It often succeeds, too. And who knows, it may even improve the
atmosphere back here in news.groups!
> How for example will the new group avoid the spam that has recently
> crippled the sci.space.news moderated group?
*checks* That is kindof annoying; how long have these forge-
approvals been a problem? Has the moderator been informed? Is somebody
specifically attacking the group, and if so, who?
Regardless, pgpmoose will handle this problem for NGP. I'm fairly
certain that this was brought up in the discussion. *checks* Yep, I
mentioned it in <tskirvin.20061010191259$55...@cairo.ks.uiuc.edu> .
> Personally, the whole process seems distasteful, and I'm tempted to
> hang up my hat and leave news.groups, after a 15 years here.
I really hope you won't, Nick.
- Tim Skirvin (sk...@big-8.org)
--
http://www.big-8.org/ Big-8 Management Board
http://www.killfile.org/~tskirvin/ Skirv's Homepage <FISH>< <*>
Cyli
<gbur...@databasix.com> wrote:
>On Tue, 14 Nov 2006 12:52:05 -0600, The Big-8 Management Board
><bo...@big-8.org> wrote:
>
>> RESULT
>> news.groups.proposals will be created
>>
>>The Last Call for Comments on 08 Nov 2006 inititated a five-day period for
>>final comments. Following this comment period, the Big-8 Management Board
>>has decided by consensus to create the newsgroup news.groups.proposals.
>>
>>This group will be created on 18 Nov 2006.
>>
>Was there ever a doubt?
Yeah, I thought it would be created much sooner...
--
r.bc: vixen
Speaker to squirrels, willow watcher, etc..
Often taunted by trout. Almost entirely harmless. Really.
Brian Mailman
> In article <ejdda7$q3p$1...@blackhelicopter.databasix.com>,
> Gary L. Burnore <gbur...@databasix.com> wrote:
>>
>>Was there ever a doubt?
>
> No, not really.
I make these dynamite cucumber sandwiches with smoked salmon and dill
butter.
Earl Grey, anyone?
B/
saur
> Instead let me say that I do not think that all the
> points you raise are worth responding to in detail.
I didn't say all, I said any.
Martin X. Moleski, SJ
Correction noted.
Daedalus
<bo...@big-8.org> wrote:
> RESULT
> news.groups.proposals will be created
>
Ruining usenet by example, eh freaks? Nice work.
Jade
David E. Ross
No vote? This is supposedly a newsgroup that will be used by the
general Usenet community, not merely by the Big-8 Management Board. Why
did the community not have a say?
--
David E. Ross
<http://www.rossde.com/>
I use SeaMonkey as my Web browser because I want
a browser that complies with Web standards. See
<http://www.mozilla.org/projects/seamonkey/>.
Martin X. Moleski, SJ
> ... No vote? This is supposedly a newsgroup that will be used by the
>general Usenet community, not merely by the Big-8 Management Board. Why
>did the community not have a say?
I kept a straw poll of usenet feedback on the proposal.
Most recent update here: <45588621$0$16851$c3e...@news.astraweb.com>.
With a new negative today, the results are:
There are 34 respondents who made more-or-less positive remarks.
(Of the 34, 10 are members of the Big-8 Management Board).
There are 11 respondents who pretty definitely oppose the idea.
1 person made an unambiguous abstention.
5 people made remarks that could not be pigeonholed.
You'll find an answer to the question,
"What happened to the Call for Votes"
in this faq:
http://www.big-8.org/dokuwiki/doku.php?id=faqs:creation
Jonathan Kamens
>No vote? This is supposedly a newsgroup that will be used by the
>general Usenet community, not merely by the Big-8 Management Board. Why
>did the community not have a say?
There hasn't been public voting on groups in well over a year. Rather
than hashing out the entire discussion again, I suggest you spend some
time perusing the news.groups archives as well as the content at
www.big-8.org.
The community did have a say. Public voting is not the only way to
accomplish that. It's also not a very good way, when the voting is
susceptible to fraud and the people voting are not in any way
representative of the entire community.
Chris Barnes
> Anyone that thinks otherwise {WRT moderation} has No (zero) Ability
> to think for themselves.
The irony is that Bob's statement above is itself censorship (of a much
worse kind).
--
+ + + + + + + + + + + + + + + + + + + + + + + + + + + + + + + +
Chris Barnes AOL IM: CNBarnes
ch...@txbarnes.com (also MSN IM) Yahoo IM: chrisnbarnes
Chris Barnes
> No vote? This is supposedly a newsgroup that will be used by the
> general Usenet community, not merely by the Big-8 Management Board. Why
> did the community not have a say?
Have you been taking a really long nap for the last 2 years or so?
NO group proposals go through a "community wide" vote any longer.
Dave Sill
> No vote?
No, it passed by unanimous consent of the Board.
> Why did the community not have a say?
The discussions here *were* the community having its say. The straw
poll even showed that most people who bothered to express an opinion
supported the proposal.
If you mean "why did the community not have a vote", then the answer
is that there's no mechanism available for conducting useful Usenet
votes.
-Dave
Tim Skirvin
>> RESULT
>> news.groups.proposals will be created
> No vote? This is supposedly a newsgroup that will be used by the
> general Usenet community, not merely by the Big-8 Management Board. Why
> did the community not have a say?
The community did have a say, by commenting during the proposal to
point out problems, suggest improvements, and voice objections. That's
how the creation system currently works, as described at:
http://www.big-8.org/dokuwiki/doku.php?id=policies:creation
We definitely need to do a better job of publicizing this new
process; right now, the best we have is simply using the process and
thus teach those that were interested enough to follow it.
Wayne Brown
>
> No vote? This is supposedly a newsgroup that will be used by the
> general Usenet community, not merely by the Big-8 Management Board. Why
> did the community not have a say?
No one but the board gets to vote on anything anymore. And the board
members don't even have the guts to make their votes public.
--
Wayne Brown <fwb...@bellsouth.net> (HPCC #1104)
Þæs ofereode, ðisses swa mæg. ("That passed away, this also can.")
from "Deor," in the Exeter Book (folios 100r-100v)
Martin X. Moleski, SJ
> No one but the board gets to vote on anything anymore. And the board
> members don't even have the guts to make their votes public.
In the first RFD, all of the active board members signed on to the
proposal.
In the second RFD thread, all of the new board members signed on to the
proposal.
We are all identified by name in the straw poll.
Joe Bernstein is having a life and can't get on a computer often enough
to keep up with news.groups and the mailing list, and I can't speak
for how he felt about the proposal.
The other 10 of us voted in favor of it.
If that's not making our vote public, i don't know what is.
I grant you that on other RFDs, the board has chosen to let the
majority
decision speak for the whole board. I don't expect to persuade you of
the usefulness of this approach.
Marty
Daryl Hunt
"Martin X. Moleski, SJ" <mol...@canisius.edu> wrote in message
news:455b5c09$0$7014$c3e...@news.astraweb.com...
> On Wed, 15 Nov 2006 10:17:08 -0800, "David E. Ross" <nob...@nowhere.not>
> wrote in <nO6dnaUhPPM4xMbY...@iswest.net>:
>
>> ... No vote? This is supposedly a newsgroup that will be used by the
>>general Usenet community, not merely by the Big-8 Management Board. Why
>>did the community not have a say?
>
> I kept a straw poll of usenet feedback on the proposal.
> Most recent update here: <45588621$0$16851$c3e...@news.astraweb.com>.
>
> With a new negative today, the results are:
>
> There are 34 respondents who made more-or-less positive remarks.
> (Of the 34, 10 are members of the Big-8 Management Board).
>
> There are 11 respondents who pretty definitely oppose the idea.
>
> 1 person made an unambiguous abstention.
>
> 5 people made remarks that could not be pigeonholed.
Wrong. And there have been more people commenting to the negative. It
appears that you move those that disagree with this stupid idea into other
categories or just ignore thier comments.
Andrew - Supernews
> [followups fixed]
> nf...@shell1.sentex.ca (Nicholas Fitzpatrick) writes:
>> How for example will the new group avoid the spam that has recently
>> crippled the sci.space.news moderated group?
>
> *checks* That is kindof annoying; how long have these forge-
> approvals been a problem? Has the moderator been informed? Is somebody
> specifically attacking the group, and if so, who?
At first glance that seems to be a problem with a mailing list gateway.
--
Andrew, Supernews
http://www.supernews.com - individual and corporate NNTP services
Nicholas Fitzpatrick
Martin X. Moleski, SJ <mol...@canisius.edu> wrote:
>
>Tough.
> Marty
>--
>Member of the Big-8 Management Board (B8MB).
>See http://www.big-8.org for more information.
Tough? How DARE YOU! That is a totally inadequate and unresponsive
answer. How do we get people removed from the management board?
If we've created a system, where we have people with decision making
abilities who are simply going
to flipantly dismiss discussion, then we have to change the system.
Nick
Nicholas Fitzpatrick
Tim Skirvin <tski...@killfile.org> wrote:
>[followups fixed]
>nf...@shell1.sentex.ca (Nicholas Fitzpatrick) writes:
>
>> Moderating this seems like a pretty dumb idea, and not one person offered
>> a good reason why it was necessary, except to say "the current system
>> doesn't work" ... which of course is complete bull shit, as clearly the
>> current system WAS working!
>
> Not one person? Surely you exaggerate.
No, I simply get responses like yours, saying that a lot of people
don't think it is working.
> And while I understand that you think that news.groups was working
>just fine, I hope that you understand that many of us honestly disagreed
>with this assessment. Yes, the system was functioning, but I hope that it
>can do a whole lot better by cutting out the underlying nastiness.
So you are going to censor content? That's sounds even worse than
I feared. Unless someone is completely over the top, you are going
to have problems. Who decides what gets censored? How does one appeal?
>> Nor has anyone explained why moderation will actually work, when it so
>> often fails.
>
> It often succeeds, too. And who knows, it may even improve the
>atmosphere back here in news.groups!
Sometimes it works for years, and then breaks. I can't post
to rec.arts.sf.tv.babylon5.moderated any more, without any explanation
why. It worked for about a decade, and then stops working. This isn't
good.
> *checks* That is kindof annoying; how long have these forge-
>approvals been a problem? Has the moderator been informed? Is somebody
>specifically attacking the group, and if so, who?
Not sure. BTW, having the list of moderators posted in news.announce.newgroups
or news.announce.important once in a while might be useful. I don't recall
seeing it for a bit.
> Regardless, pgpmoose will handle this problem for NGP. I'm fairly
>certain that this was brought up in the discussion. *checks* Yep, I
>mentioned it in <tskirvin.20061010191259$55...@cairo.ks.uiuc.edu> .
Not sure what NGP is, or who pgpmoose is ... but whatever the process, it
works fine now, but how can we be sure it will work fine in 20 years
time? Whatever we do should be maintenance-free, or first time
someonething goes badly wrong, perhaps a couple of people die suddenly,
then everything goes silent.
Nick
Wayne Brown
> Wayne Brown wrote:
>
>> No one but the board gets to vote on anything anymore. And the board
>> members don't even have the guts to make their votes public.
>
> In the first RFD, all of the active board members signed on to the
> proposal.
>
> In the second RFD thread, all of the new board members signed on to the
> proposal.
>
> We are all identified by name in the straw poll.
>
> Joe Bernstein is having a life and can't get on a computer often enough
> to keep up with news.groups and the mailing list, and I can't speak
> for how he felt about the proposal.
>
> The other 10 of us voted in favor of it.
>
> If that's not making our vote public, i don't know what is.
Yeah, right. I'm sure it takes a lot of courage to admit to being part
of a unanimous vote.
>
> I grant you that on other RFDs, the board has chosen to let the
> majority
> decision speak for the whole board. I don't expect to persuade you of
> the usefulness of this approach.
Personally, I don't care whether you clowns choose to hide behind a secret
vote or not. It doesn't matter to me which way you vote on any issue,
because I don't think any of you should be voting in the first place.
It's just really entertaining to watch a bunch of cowards put together
their own moderated group to avoid having to listen to criticism, and
*still* be so afraid of being criticized for their votes that they have
to keep them secret.
Jonathan Kamens
>Tough? How DARE YOU! That is a totally inadequate and unresponsive
>answer.
Anyone who has been reading along knows that Marty and others have
responded thoughtfully and at length to the various points you and
others have made. Then you and others have just kept making those
same points over and over again, without bringing anything new into
the discussion. "Tough" is a somewhat obvious shorthand for, "I'm not
going to keep repeating myself over and over, just so you can keep
repeating yourself over and over, when neither of us is going to
convince the other of anything and we're both just wasting time and
bandwidth."
At least, that's how I interpret it; Marty is of course free to
correct me if I've misstated his intent.
I'd wager that you know all this already. Two sayings of which I'm
fond:
1) "I'm shocked, shocked to find there is gambling going on here."
2) "If you poke a sleeping tiger, expect to get bit."
>How do we get people removed from the management board?
Set up your own Board. Convince the news admins that you can do a
better job and they should listen to you instead of the existing Board.
Tim Skirvin
>>> Moderating this seems like a pretty dumb idea, and not one person offered
>>> a good reason why it was necessary, except to say "the current system
>>> doesn't work" ... which of course is complete bull shit, as clearly the
>>> current system WAS working!
>> Not one person? Surely you exaggerate.
> No, I simply get responses like yours, saying that a lot of people
> don't think it is working.
Nicholas, the proposal included a rationale explaining why we felt
that news.groups.proposals was necessary. The most cogent argument was
actually a cite of Russ Allbery's 'goodbye' article to news.groups, where
he specifically decried the state of news.groups and mused that "[t]he
biggest risk facing the Big Eight newsgroup creation system going forward
is the lack of a congenial and constructive place for discussion of
changes to the group list." That's one.
>> And while I understand that you think that news.groups was working
>> just fine, I hope that you understand that many of us honestly disagreed
>> with this assessment. Yes, the system was functioning, but I hope that it
>> can do a whole lot better by cutting out the underlying nastiness.
> So you are going to censor content?
I think we went over this during the proposal discussion. Yes,
some content is disallowed in the new group, including that which is
"not conducive to the development of a proposal is disallowed, including
personal attacks, derogatory nicknames, repetitive arguments, and flames."
I wouldn't call that censorship, though, just moderation. The moderation
team and appeal process are spelled out in the charter as well, included
in the document at the top of this thread.
>> It often succeeds, too. And who knows, it may even improve the
>> atmosphere back here in news.groups!
> Sometimes it works for years, and then breaks. I can't post to
> rec.arts.sf.tv.babylon5.moderated any more, without any explanation why.
Have you contacted the moderators? I haven't had any problems
with rast.b5.moderated lately, but it seems like there's a constant 10% of
the population that have a hard time of it. I can help you work it out
too, if you'd like, but since I don't moderate the group it may be a bit
tricky.
> BTW, having the list of moderators posted in news.announce.newgroups or
> news.announce.important once in a while might be useful. I don't recall
> seeing it for a bit.
This has actually been on our to-do list for about a year now. We
just need to find someone that has the time to handle it; if anybody would
like to volunteer, please let me know, and I'll put you in touch with the
people that can get you the list.
>> Regardless, pgpmoose will handle this problem for NGP. I'm fairly
>> certain that this was brought up in the discussion. *checks* Yep, I
>> mentioned it in <tskirvin.20061010191259$55...@cairo.ks.uiuc.edu> .
> Not sure what NGP is, or who pgpmoose is ...
NGP is news.groups.proposals. pgpmoose is a standard whereby
posts are PGP-signed, and then later verified by an automatic 'bot. Any
post that wasn't properly signed is automatically cancelled or otherwise
filtered. The signing code is part of News::Article, and I've written
some open source verification 'bot code, which I think I've got available
through freshmeat and CPAN; and Greg Rose has an older version available
as well.
> but whatever the process, it works fine now, but how can we be sure it
> will work fine in 20 years time?
It's a standard. It already works.
> Whatever we do should be maintenance-free, or first time someonething
> goes badly wrong, perhaps a couple of people die suddenly, then
> everything goes silent.
And if the worst happens - which is a lot harder than you're
implying, IMO, especially now that we have a Board and not just a couple
of individuals - news.groups will still be there.
Jonathan Kamens
>So you are going to censor content? That's sounds even worse than
>I feared. Unless someone is completely over the top, you are going
>to have problems. Who decides what gets censored? How does one appeal?
Did you read the proposal about which you're complaining? It doesn't
seem like it.
>Not sure. BTW, having the list of moderators posted in news.announce.newgroups
>or news.announce.important once in a while might be useful. I don't recall
>seeing it for a bit.
It's been discussed and on the Board's to-do list.
>> Regardless, pgpmoose will handle this problem for NGP. I'm fairly
>>certain that this was brought up in the discussion. *checks* Yep, I
>>mentioned it in <tskirvin.20061010191259$55...@cairo.ks.uiuc.edu> .
>
>Not sure what NGP is, or who pgpmoose is ...
Then you're qualified to discuss how and whether this is going to work
why, exactly? Because of your anecdotal evidence of one group that
you stopped being able to post to? I hardly think that makes you an
expert.
>but whatever the process, it
>works fine now, but how can we be sure it will work fine in 20 years
>time?
Usenet is remarkably resilient, as evidenced by the fact that it
survived Tale's silent period.
>Whatever we do should be maintenance-free, or first time
>someonething goes badly wrong, perhaps a couple of people die suddenly,
>then everything goes silent.
Which is exactly why there are lots of people on the Board.
And if the Board hadn't come along, guess what? Everything would have
gone silent, because Russ, Todd and Brian didn't want to do it anymore,
and there wasn't anybody stepping up to take over under the old rules.
Peter J Ross
<bo...@big-8.org> wrote in news.announce.newgroups:
> RESULT
> news.groups.proposals will be created
>
> The Last Call for Comments on 08 Nov 2006 inititated a five-day period for
> final comments. Following this comment period, the Big-8 Management Board
> has decided by consensus to create the newsgroup news.groups.proposals.
>
> This group will be created on 18 Nov 2006.
The Daily NetNews reports in its Sporting Supplement:
Bookmakers all over the world were celebrating today as a rank
outsider won the prestigious Newsgroup Creation Stakes. "I was so sure
they wouldn't create the group that I staked everything, including my
mother's life, on it," moaned Fred Slabby (34), a 10th-year
Art-and-Drugs student at the University of Dumbingdown, Staffordshire.
"Now, I can't even afford to buy a knife to kill her with," Fred
mourned.
"I haven't felt this way since Foinavon won the Grand National at odds
of 100-1 in 1967," breathed miniskirted Miss Charleena Prozack (83).
"Of course, I don't remember how I felt then. If you remember the '60s
you weren't really there. Hee hee. Ha Ha. By the way, you're a very
nice-looking young man."
Miss Prozack is now recovering in hospital after allegedly being
assaulted by a Daily NetNews reporter.
But it's not all doom and gloom. A mystery man from Somerset, England,
known only by his three initials, is rumoured to have actually
predicted this freak result several weeks in advance!
"I have a system," laughed the winner, who can't be named for legal
reasons, and illegal ones too. "None of the tipsters was expecting
this newsgroup to win, but it was carrying hardly any weight and
hadn't been tested over a distance greater than three inches in
previous races, so I invested a tenner at the 50000-1 odds offered by
Ladbrokes. Anybody who'd studied the form could have done the same,"
he added, humbly.
Time will tell whether the group will fail as entertainingly as all
other groups created since October 2005 have done. But, for the
embattled Board, there's a ray of hope. The Daily NetNews has learned
that unwashed misogynist Bob Geldof (104) is planning to draw
attention to their plight with a Board-Aid concert (predicted
attendance: 11).
PJR :-)
--
_ _(o)_(o)_ _ | The fool hath said in his heart, "There is no Cabal."
._\`:_ F S M _:' \_, | FSM: <http://www.venganza.org/>
/ (`---'\ `-. | AUK: <http://www.netcabal.com/auk/>
,-` _) (_, F_P | PJR: <http://insurgent.org/~pjr/>
Martin X. Moleski, SJ
>Tough? How DARE YOU!
It's not all that hard.
>That is a totally inadequate and unresponsive
>answer.
Yes, exactly.
> How do we get people removed from the management board?
Persuade the other members to kick them off.
>If we've created a system, where we have people with decision making
>abilities who are simply going
>to flipantly dismiss discussion, then we have to change the system.
Some of the members with decision-making abilities
are using killfiles so that they don't read things
posted by some users at all.
You're looking at the end of a conversation I had
with saur, not the beginning.
Martin X. Moleski, SJ
<ejg3mn$o19$1...@jik2.kamens.brookline.ma.us>:
> ... "Tough" is a somewhat obvious shorthand for, "I'm not
>going to keep repeating myself over and over, just so you can keep
>repeating yourself over and over, when neither of us is going to
>convince the other of anything and we're both just wasting time and
>bandwidth."
>At least, that's how I interpret it; Marty is of course free to
>correct me if I've misstated his intent.
You said it much better than I could.
Thanks for the translation. ;o)
Nicholas Fitzpatrick
Jonathan Kamens <j...@kamens.brookline.ma.us> wrote:
>nf...@shell1.sentex.ca (Nicholas Fitzpatrick) writes:
>>Tough? How DARE YOU! That is a totally inadequate and unresponsive
>>answer.
>
>Anyone who has been reading along knows that Marty and others have
>responded thoughtfully and at length to the various points you and
>others have made. Then you and others have just kept making those
>same points over and over again, without bringing anything new into
>the discussion. "Tough" is a somewhat obvious shorthand for, "I'm not
>going to keep repeating myself over and over, just so you can keep
>repeating yourself over and over, when neither of us is going to
>convince the other of anything and we're both just wasting time and
>bandwidth."
I haven't followed most of the previous discussion in detail, when it
wandered off the subject that most concerned, me, which is moderation.
And as the previous discussion didn't seem to touch it much at all, there
is much I haven't read.
The use of such dismissive terms is arrogant, and is not to be tolerated.
>I'd wager that you know all this already.
That's insulting. Please apologise.
> Two sayings of which I'm fond
>1) "I'm shocked, shocked to find there is gambling going on here."
>
>2) "If you poke a sleeping tiger, expect to get bit."
What are you talking about? I can't relate these sayings to anything
going on in these discussions?
>>How do we get people removed from the management board?
>
>Set up your own Board. Convince the news admins that you can do a
>better job and they should listen to you instead of the existing Board.
No seriously. What is the procedure for removal of board members?
Most board, or moderation panels have a procedure (I'm assuming the new
moderation panel for the group in question does ... I didn't really look
into that, as it wasn't my concern).
Nick
Martin X. Moleski, SJ
>"Martin X. Moleski, SJ" <mol...@canisius.edu> wrote in message
>news:455b5c09$0$7014$c3e...@news.astraweb.com...
>> I kept a straw poll of usenet feedback on the proposal.
>> Most recent update here: <45588621$0$16851$c3e...@news.astraweb.com>.
>> With a new negative today, the results are:
>> There are 34 respondents who made more-or-less positive remarks.
>> (Of the 34, 10 are members of the Big-8 Management Board).
>> There are 11 respondents who pretty definitely oppose the idea.
>> 1 person made an unambiguous abstention.
>> 5 people made remarks that could not be pigeonholed.
>Wrong. And there have been more people commenting to the negative.
I offer again, as I did the last time you made this
accusation, to place you where you would like to be
placed and to add any message-IDs to the list of
posts from people objecting to the idea.
Tim Skirvin
> Martin X. Moleski, SJ <mol...@canisius.edu> wrote:
>> Tough.
> Tough? How DARE YOU!
Personally, I feel that Marty has shown great patience and
restraint in his dealings with the poster to which he was responding in
the post you're quoting. Marty has consistently given saur the benefit of
the doubt and bent over backwards to treat him reasonably, in the face of
several months of attacks and abuse. He is the wronged party here.
And even if he wasn't, it wouldn't matter, I don't feel that
telling somebody "tough" is an insult worthy of, well, much of anything.
> How do we get people removed from the management board?
Convince them to resign, or convince two-thirds of the Board to
kick off the one. Neither seems likely in this case.
> If we've created a system, where we have people with decision making
> abilities who are simply going to flipantly dismiss discussion, then we
> have to change the system.
What would you suggest?
Wayne Brown
> In article <455a6152$0$14373$c3e...@news.astraweb.com>,
> Martin X. Moleski, SJ <mol...@canisius.edu> wrote:
>>
>>Tough.
>> Marty
>>--
>>Member of the Big-8 Management Board (B8MB).
>>See http://www.big-8.org for more information.
>
> Tough? How DARE YOU! That is a totally inadequate and unresponsive
> answer. How do we get people removed from the management board?
He's just using those wonderful "people skills" he learned in the
priesthood.
Wayne Brown
> nf...@shell1.sentex.ca (Nicholas Fitzpatrick) writes:
>>So you are going to censor content? That's sounds even worse than
>>I feared. Unless someone is completely over the top, you are going
>>to have problems. Who decides what gets censored? How does one appeal?
>
> Did you read the proposal about which you're complaining? It doesn't
> seem like it.
>
>>Not sure. BTW, having the list of moderators posted in news.announce.newgroups
>>or news.announce.important once in a while might be useful. I don't recall
>>seeing it for a bit.
>
> It's been discussed and on the Board's to-do list.
>
>>> Regardless, pgpmoose will handle this problem for NGP. I'm fairly
>>>certain that this was brought up in the discussion. *checks* Yep, I
>>>mentioned it in <tskirvin.20061010191259$55...@cairo.ks.uiuc.edu> .
>>
>>Not sure what NGP is, or who pgpmoose is ...
>
> Then you're qualified to discuss how and whether this is going to work
> why, exactly? Because of your anecdotal evidence of one group that
> you stopped being able to post to? I hardly think that makes you an
> expert.
>
>>but whatever the process, it
>>works fine now, but how can we be sure it will work fine in 20 years
>>time?
>
> Usenet is remarkably resilient, as evidenced by the fact that it
> survived Tale's silent period.
It was better during Tale's silent period than anytime since.
saur
> You're looking at the end of a conversation I had
> with saur, not the beginning.
You weren't conversing. You didn't respond to what Bob and I were
discussing. You selectively quoted and threw in your text which was
irrelevant to the topic (i.e., tests based on objective data/criteria).
We all know that you and the board use your subjective opinions rather than
any kind of data-based system. I wasn't the one criticising your system. I
was actually disagreeing with something Bob wrote.
Steve Bonine
> Tim Skirvin <tski...@killfile.org> wrote:
>>nf...@shell1.sentex.ca (Nicholas Fitzpatrick) writes:
>>
>>
>>>Moderating this seems like a pretty dumb idea, and not one person offered
>>>a good reason why it was necessary, except to say "the current system
>>>doesn't work" ... which of course is complete bull shit, as clearly the
>>>current system WAS working!
>>
>> Not one person? Surely you exaggerate.
>
> No, I simply get responses like yours, saying that a lot of people
> don't think it is working.
A lot of people have offered good reasons why the current system needs
to be improved. Is it working? Of course; we're using it. Can it be
improved? Many people believe that it can be.
>
>> And while I understand that you think that news.groups was working
>>just fine, I hope that you understand that many of us honestly disagreed
>>with this assessment. Yes, the system was functioning, but I hope that it
>>can do a whole lot better by cutting out the underlying nastiness.
>
> So you are going to censor content? That's sounds even worse than
> I feared. Unless someone is completely over the top, you are going
> to have problems. Who decides what gets censored?
The moderators decide, as you put it, what gets censored.
The word "censor" is full of negative conotations. Yes, there will be
material that won't appear in the new group. It is entirely possible
that removing material from a discussion can make that discussion more
useful.
> How does one appeal?
The rejection notices will include information on how to appeal. The
moderation policy included in the results announcement that began this
thread contains this text:
Moderator decisions can be appealed by contacting ngp-...@ngp.big-8.org.
If necessary, the moderation panel will refer the case to the Big-8
Management Board for a final decision.
>>>Nor has anyone explained why moderation will actually work, when it so
>>>often fails.
>>
>> It often succeeds, too. And who knows, it may even improve the
>>atmosphere back here in news.groups!
>
> Sometimes it works for years, and then breaks. I can't post
> to rec.arts.sf.tv.babylon5.moderated any more, without any explanation
> why. It worked for about a decade, and then stops working. This isn't
> good.
I think we've made an abrupt transition from the philosophy of
moderation to the issue of technical problems. Sometimes moderators
quit. Occasionally moderation software breaks. There are mechanisms in
place to address these issues.
>> *checks* That is kindof annoying; how long have these forge-
>>approvals been a problem? Has the moderator been informed? Is somebody
>>specifically attacking the group, and if so, who?
>
>
> Not sure. BTW, having the list of moderators posted in news.announce.newgroups
> or news.announce.important once in a while might be useful. I don't recall
> seeing it for a bit.
>
>> Regardless, pgpmoose will handle this problem for NGP. I'm fairly
>>certain that this was brought up in the discussion. *checks* Yep, I
>>mentioned it in <tskirvin.20061010191259$55...@cairo.ks.uiuc.edu> .
>
> Not sure what NGP is, or who pgpmoose is
NGP is an abbreviation for the newsgroup we're discussing.
pgpmoose is a facility that is used to validate that articles in
moderated newsgroups were approved by legitimate moderators.
... but whatever the process, it
> works fine now, but how can we be sure it will work fine in 20 years
> time? Whatever we do should be maintenance-free, or first time
> someonething goes badly wrong, perhaps a couple of people die suddenly,
> then everything goes silent.
Given the importance of news.groups.proposals to the administration of
Usenet, there's every reason to believe that it will work fine as long
as Usenet works fine. On the other hand, addressing the problem of
news.groups scaring away potential group proponents increases the
probability that there will be a working Usenet in twenty years.
Nicholas Fitzpatrick
Tim Skirvin <tski...@killfile.org> wrote:
>
>> No, I simply get responses like yours, saying that a lot of people
>> don't think it is working.
>
> Nicholas, the proposal included a rationale explaining why we felt
>that news.groups.proposals was necessary. The most cogent argument was
>actually a cite of Russ Allbery's 'goodbye' article to news.groups, where
>he specifically decried the state of news.groups and mused that "[t]he
>biggest risk facing the Big Eight newsgroup creation system going forward
>is the lack of a congenial and constructive place for discussion of
>changes to the group list." That's one.
I don't recall seeing it. (BTW, why don't second RFD, third RFD,
Result posting, etc. contain the original RFD in the Reference line
like they used to ... it makes it much easier to find the old RFDs).
I recall seeing Russ's comment at the time. Though again, it only
states there is a problem. The comment doesn't provide information supporting
there is a problem beyond a mere statement.
>> So you are going to censor content?
>
> I think we went over this during the proposal discussion. Yes,
>some content is disallowed in the new group, including that which is
>"not conducive to the development of a proposal is disallowed, including
>personal attacks, derogatory nicknames, repetitive arguments, and flames."
>I wouldn't call that censorship, though, just moderation. The moderation
>team and appeal process are spelled out in the charter as well, included
>in the document at the top of this thread.
I confess I didn't follow that part of the discussion. I tried twice
to get discussion going on whether there the group should or shouldn't
be moderated. Discussing the methodology of moderation seemed to me
to be cart before the horse, so I didn't participate. However as the
discussion seemed to fall on deaf ears, nothing happened. Repetitive
arguments - that's dangerous ... moderators can abuse that one.
>> Sometimes it works for years, and then breaks. I can't post to
>> rec.arts.sf.tv.babylon5.moderated any more, without any explanation why.
>
> Have you contacted the moderators? I haven't had any problems
>with rast.b5.moderated lately, but it seems like there's a constant 10% of
>the population that have a hard time of it. I can help you work it out
>too, if you'd like, but since I don't moderate the group it may be a bit
>tricky.
I did contact Jay, but he brushed it off, and said to just post again.
A couple of weeks later, when I next had something relevent to say, the
post never went through, and Jay has been unresponsive. What's really
odd, is that I don't even munge my e-mail address! (I have no idea
how one ever makes this easy for the majority of people who munge their
addresses)
10% disenfranchisation is huge! How can we accept this?
> This has actually been on our to-do list for about a year now. We
>just need to find someone that has the time to handle it; if anybody would
>like to volunteer, please let me know, and I'll put you in touch with the
>people that can get you the list.
I'd volunteer, but I started getting away from all this stuff back when
I got a real job in the mid-1990s ... wouldn't be very effective.
>> Not sure what NGP is, or who pgpmoose is ...
>
> NGP is news.groups.proposals. pgpmoose is a standard whereby
>posts are PGP-signed, and then later verified by an automatic 'bot. Any
>post that wasn't properly signed is automatically cancelled or otherwise
>filtered. The signing code is part of News::Article, and I've written
>some open source verification 'bot code, which I think I've got available
>through freshmeat and CPAN; and Greg Rose has an older version available
>as well.
Okay, thanks.
>> but whatever the process, it works fine now, but how can we be sure it
>> will work fine in 20 years time?
>
> It's a standard. It already works.
Okay ... that's positive.
>> Whatever we do should be maintenance-free, or first time someonething
>> goes badly wrong, perhaps a couple of people die suddenly, then
>> everything goes silent.
>
> And if the worst happens - which is a lot harder than you're
>implying, IMO, especially now that we have a Board and not just a couple
>of individuals - news.groups will still be there.
Though most of the board seems to be in the same country ... which I believe
at least two groups have threatened to nuke this year. Seems to me
we'd be better off with unmoderated groups, rather than getting burdened
with a moderated system - though I guess news.groups is always available
as a backup if things fall apart.
I'm still pretty reluctant, but I'm seeing that there is a bit more
thought to this than I feared. (though I really don't see the issues
with news.groups ... and have no idea why we want people expending
their energy being net.cops moderating a group).
Nick
Nicholas Fitzpatrick
Jonathan Kamens <j...@kamens.brookline.ma.us> wrote:
>
>>> Regardless, pgpmoose will handle this problem for NGP. I'm fairly
>>>certain that this was brought up in the discussion. *checks* Yep, I
>>>mentioned it in <tskirvin.20061010191259$55...@cairo.ks.uiuc.edu> .
>>
>>Not sure what NGP is, or who pgpmoose is ...
>
>Then you're qualified to discuss how and whether this is going to work
>why, exactly? Because of your anecdotal evidence of one group that
>you stopped being able to post to? I hardly think that makes you an
>expert.
That's a little rude isn't it? Please be civil. Surely every member
of the Usenet community is by definition qualifed to discuss this ... or
did I miss the announcement that posts are going to be moderated based on
the eliteness of the members!
BTW, I mentioned 2 broken groups, not one. And personally I only follow
3 moderated groups these days (if you ignore the dead ones, like
news.announce.important). The third isn't a great example either ...
rec.arts.drwho.moderated ... which has broken down a couple of times ...
and took about 2 years after approval, before anyone could figure out
how to get moderated to work.
>
>Usenet is remarkably resilient, as evidenced by the fact that it
>survived Tale's silent period.
Are youre? Tale is still silent :-)
>And if the Board hadn't come along, guess what? Everything would have
>gone silent, because Russ, Todd and Brian didn't want to do it anymore,
>and there wasn't anybody stepping up to take over under the old rules.
Valid point - and I'm not really against the cabal (though why you
don't call it what it is, I don't know).
Nick
saur
> Personally, I feel that Marty has shown great patience and restraint in
> his dealings with the poster to which he was responding in the post
> you're quoting. Marty has consistently given saur the benefit of the
> doubt and bent over backwards to treat him reasonably, in the face of
> several months of attacks and abuse. He is the wronged party here.
Do you remember writing the text below to me in email?
Message-id: <2006072303...@killfile.org>
I agree, and I think that you're perfectly right
to be upset. I'd apologize for Marty if I thought
it was appropriate; but it's not. I can promise
that I'll do what I can to keep this kind of thing
from happening again.
I can no longer sit idly by while you play both ends against the middle.
You lied about my involvement in your UVP, and you are lying about what you
said to me about Marty. Enough.
Tim Skirvin
>> Nicholas, the proposal included a rationale explaining why we felt
>> that news.groups.proposals was necessary. The most cogent argument was
>> actually a cite of Russ Allbery's 'goodbye' article to news.groups, where
>> he specifically decried the state of news.groups and mused that "[t]he
>> biggest risk facing the Big Eight newsgroup creation system going forward
>> is the lack of a congenial and constructive place for discussion of
>> changes to the group list." That's one.
> I don't recall seeing it.
The Message-ID is <11596610...@isc.org>; you can probably
find it on news.killfile.org as well.
> (BTW, why don't second RFD, third RFD, Result posting, etc. contain the
> original RFD in the Reference line like they used to ... it makes it
> much easier to find the old RFDs).
I suppose they could; I just haven't been doing so. The best
arguments I can think of off-hand are that people tend be more interested in
looking at new threads than old ones, and that each RFD really does bring
different discussion.
> I recall seeing Russ's comment at the time. Though again, it only
> states there is a problem. The comment doesn't provide information
> supporting there is a problem beyond a mere statement.
What kind of proof would you find adequate?
>>> Sometimes it works for years, and then breaks. I can't post to
>>> rec.arts.sf.tv.babylon5.moderated any more, without any explanation why.
>> Have you contacted the moderators? I haven't had any problems
>> with rast.b5.moderated lately, but it seems like there's a constant 10% of
>> the population that have a hard time of it. I can help you work it out
>> too, if you'd like, but since I don't moderate the group it may be a bit
>> tricky.
> I did contact Jay, but he brushed it off, and said to just post again.
Mail him again, and Cc: me. I'll see if I can help. It may be a
problem with your server, so we could try news.killfile.org if
necessary...
> 10% disenfranchisation is huge! How can we accept this?
The 10% is only for rastb5.moderated. I don't know why that group
is odd; I haven't heard much griping about access to any of the groups
that I moderate.
>>> Whatever we do should be maintenance-free, or first time someonething
>>> goes badly wrong, perhaps a couple of people die suddenly, then
>>> everything goes silent.
>> And if the worst happens - which is a lot harder than you're
>> implying, IMO, especially now that we have a Board and not just a couple
>> of individuals - news.groups will still be there.
> Though most of the board seems to be in the same country ... which I believe
> at least two groups have threatened to nuke this year.
It would take a lot of nukes to take down the USA. And we're not
*only* in the United States, or even in North America. We do have a fair
bit of geographical diversity, and while I think we could use more, it's
not a high priority at this point.
> I'm still pretty reluctant, but I'm seeing that there is a bit more
> thought to this than I feared.
I'm glad. Seriously, I'm not really that happy to see people
getting angry and upset over things like this; and I'm happy to spend some
time convincing people that we are, at least, not raving loons.
Nicholas Fitzpatrick
>Fitzpatrick) wrote in <455b8e37$1...@news.sentex.net>:
>
>>Tough? How DARE YOU!
>
>It's not all that hard.
I'm not sure what you mean by this, please clarify.
>>That is a totally inadequate and unresponsive
>>answer.
>
>Yes, exactly.
But responses are not supposed to be inadequate. Your admitting
your responses are inadequate?
>> How do we get people removed from the management board?
>
>Persuade the other members to kick them off.
Ah, a proper response! Here'a suggestion. We need a FAQ.
>>If we've created a system, where we have people with decision making
>>abilities who are simply going
>>to flipantly dismiss discussion, then we have to change the system.
>
>Some of the members with decision-making abilities
>are using killfiles so that they don't read things
>posted by some users at all.
I hope your kidding.
>You're looking at the end of a conversation I had
>with saur, not the beginning.
I looked through this entire thread. Can I ask that we not
have meta threads going on, as it is unfair to everyone. And if you
need to do this, pleae put in the appropriate references.
Nick
Nicholas Fitzpatrick
Tim Skirvin <tski...@killfile.org> wrote:
>nf...@shell1.sentex.ca (Nicholas Fitzpatrick) writes:
>
>> I don't recall seeing it.
>
> The Message-ID is <11596610...@isc.org>; you can probably
>find it on news.killfile.org as well.
I'll look then.
>> (BTW, why don't second RFD, third RFD, Result posting, etc. contain the
>> original RFD in the Reference line like they used to ... it makes it
>> much easier to find the old RFDs).
>
> I suppose they could; I just haven't been doing so. The best
>arguments I can think of off-hand are that people tend be more interested in
>looking at new threads than old ones, and that each RFD really does bring
>different discussion.
If nothing else in this discussion goes anywhere, I'd suggest reverting
to this practice. It makes it a lot easier to find the rest of the
discussion.
>> I recall seeing Russ's comment at the time. Though again, it only
>> states there is a problem. The comment doesn't provide information
>> supporting there is a problem beyond a mere statement.
>
> What kind of proof would you find adequate?
A general discussion of what the problems in news.groups are, rather
than just statements, that it is a problem.
>> I did contact Jay, but he brushed it off, and said to just post again.
>
> Mail him again, and Cc: me. I'll see if I can help. It may be a
>problem with your server, so we could try news.killfile.org if
>necessary...
Okay, next time I find something worth commenting on ... hasn't been
much to say for years really - it's only with B5 back in production, that
I've had any reason to post at all ... so could be weeks or months before
that happens.
>> 10% disenfranchisation is huge! How can we accept this?
>
> The 10% is only for rastb5.moderated. I don't know why that group
>is odd; I haven't heard much griping about access to any of the groups
>that I moderate.
Ah, okay. I expect it is worse than that. Most people won't bother
saying anything.
>> I'm still pretty reluctant, but I'm seeing that there is a bit more
>> thought to this than I feared.
>
> I'm glad. Seriously, I'm not really that happy to see people
>getting angry and upset over things like this; and I'm happy to spend some
>time convincing people that we are, at least, not raving loons.
Well, not most of you ... I'm a bit concerned about those that seems to
enjoy one-word flippant answers - but that's another story.
Nick
Martin X. Moleski, SJ
...
>I haven't followed most of the previous discussion in detail ...
>The use of such dismissive terms is arrogant, and is not to be tolerated.
I now dismiss your judgment of me using ten words.
Seems to me you've conceded already that you don't
know what you're talking about.
> ... No seriously. What is the procedure for removal of board members?
A 2/3 vote of the current board, I think.
http://www.big-8.org/dokuwiki/doku.php?id=policies:board_voting
Martin X. Moleski, SJ
And I deeply regret entering the conversation.
I'll leave you two to yourselves from now on.
Martin X. Moleski, SJ
>In article <455b9357$0$13005$c3e...@news.astraweb.com>,
>Martin X. Moleski, SJ <mol...@canisius.edu> wrote:
>>On 15 Nov 2006 17:01:27 -0500, nf...@shell1.sentex.ca (Nicholas
>>Fitzpatrick) wrote in <455b8e37$1...@news.sentex.net>:
>>
>>>Tough? How DARE YOU!
>>
>>It's not all that hard.
>
>I'm not sure what you mean by this, please clarify.
No, thanks.
>>>That is a totally inadequate and unresponsive
>>>answer.
>>
>>Yes, exactly.
>But responses are not supposed to be inadequate. Your admitting
>your responses are inadequate?
Yep.
>>> How do we get people removed from the management board?
>>
>>Persuade the other members to kick them off.
>
>Ah, a proper response! Here'a suggestion. We need a FAQ.
Here's an answer: read the wiki.
http://www.big-8.org/dokuwiki/doku.php?id=policies:board_voting
>>>If we've created a system, where we have people with decision making
>>>abilities who are simply going
>>>to flipantly dismiss discussion, then we have to change the system.
>
>>Some of the members with decision-making abilities
>>are using killfiles so that they don't read things
>>posted by some users at all.
>I hope your kidding.
No.
>>You're looking at the end of a conversation I had
>>with saur, not the beginning.
>I looked through this entire thread. Can I ask that we not
>have meta threads going on, as it is unfair to everyone. And if you
>need to do this, pleae put in the appropriate references.
OK, I've changed the subject to help get this out of
that thread.
Nicholas Fitzpatrick
>Fitzpatrick) wrote in <455b959f$1...@news.sentex.net>:
>
>
>>The use of such dismissive terms is arrogant, and is not to be tolerated.
>
>I now dismiss your judgment of me using ten words.
That response is just totally and completely insulting and uncalled
for. Never in my years here, have I seen such arrogance from someone
who is supposed to be an ambassador for Usenet.
Is this how you reply to everyone here?
>Seems to me you've conceded already that you don't
>know what you're talking about.
This is just totally uncalled for. You and I have never crossed
paths before, but you are rude, insulting, and acting like a complete
prick. There is no call for your behaviour. Please apologise now.
Nick
Nicholas Fitzpatrick
Martin X. Moleski, SJ <mol...@canisius.edu> wrote:
>On 15 Nov 2006 18:04:43 -0500, nf...@shell1.sentex.ca (Nicholas
>Fitzpatrick) wrote in <455b9d0b$1...@news.sentex.net>:
>
>>In article <455b9357$0$13005$c3e...@news.astraweb.com>,
>>Martin X. Moleski, SJ <mol...@canisius.edu> wrote:
>
>>>On 15 Nov 2006 17:01:27 -0500, nf...@shell1.sentex.ca (Nicholas
>>>Fitzpatrick) wrote in <455b8e37$1...@news.sentex.net>:
>>>
>>>>Tough? How DARE YOU!
>>>
>>>It's not all that hard.
>>
>>I'm not sure what you mean by this, please clarify.
>
>No, thanks.
I'm sorry. You write something that doesn't make sense, I ask
for clarification, in a non-judgemental way, and you say no?
How is that appropriate behaviour?
>>>>That is a totally inadequate and unresponsive
>>>>answer.
>>>
>>>Yes, exactly.
>
>>But responses are not supposed to be inadequate. Your admitting
>>your responses are inadequate?
>
>Yep.
Then, I think you should resign from this board then, as you are
inadequate by your own admission!
>>>> How do we get people removed from the management board?
>>>
>>>Persuade the other members to kick them off.
>>
>>Ah, a proper response! Here'a suggestion. We need a FAQ.
>
>Here's an answer: read the wiki.
>
>http://www.big-8.org/dokuwiki/doku.php?id=policies:board_voting
I don't do wiki's. This is Usenet, and shouldn't refer to HTTP
in order to provide the information. Should be a regular FAQ.
>>>Some of the members with decision-making abilities
>>>are using killfiles so that they don't read things
>>>posted by some users at all.
>
>>I hope your kidding.
>
>No.
Can you tell us who these people are, so that we can consider
whether they are suitable?
>>>You're looking at the end of a conversation I had
>>>with saur, not the beginning.
>
>>I looked through this entire thread. Can I ask that we not
>>have meta threads going on, as it is unfair to everyone. And if you
>>need to do this, pleae put in the appropriate references.
>
>OK, I've changed the subject to help get this out of
>that thread.
Uh, how does changing the subject line, change the thread, when you
provided references to the previous post?
Nick
Andrew - Supernews
> nf...@shell1.sentex.ca (Nicholas Fitzpatrick) writes:
>>> with rast.b5.moderated lately, but it seems like there's a constant 10% of
>>> the population that have a hard time of it. I can help you work it out
>>> too, if you'd like, but since I don't moderate the group it may be a bit
>>> tricky.
>
>> I did contact Jay, but he brushed it off, and said to just post again.
>
> Mail him again, and Cc: me. I'll see if I can help. It may be a
> problem with your server, so we could try news.killfile.org if
> necessary...
I see traffic through our moderation relay from news.sentex.ca (including
one on 2006-10-23 from Nicholas to rastb5m, which I don't see in the group).
So it's not the obvious "your server is broken" thing.
--
Andrew, Supernews
http://www.supernews.com - individual and corporate NNTP services
Nicholas Fitzpatrick
Nicholas Fitzpatrick <nf...@shell1.sentex.ca> wrote:
>>
>> I'm glad. Seriously, I'm not really that happy to see people
>>getting angry and upset over things like this; and I'm happy to spend some
>>time convincing people that we are, at least, not raving loons.
>
>Well, not most of you ... I'm a bit concerned about those that seems to
>enjoy one-word flippant answers - but that's another story.
I'm going to amend this. I don't know who this "Martin X. Moleski, SJ"
guy is, and I haven't paid that much attention to the goings on here of
late, but he seems to be completely out of control. His responses to
me have been nothing but unhelpful, rude, demeaning, and belittling.
I have tried to be civil in this discussion, and nothing I have said
call for his attitude-filled responses. There is no history between
us, that calls for his first encounter with me to be so terrible, and
only want to drive me away from this place.
Based on my limited encounter with him, I don't think he is the right person
to be in such a position, that requires patience, good communication
skills, and a major lack of attitude. If we had a history, I could
see why his response might be somewhat terse. But there is absolutely
not history here ... I'm completely astounded by just how rude he is
being, without any reason! May I suggest that he be reigned in.
Nick
Nicholas Fitzpatrick
Andrew - Supernews <and...@supernews.com> wrote:
>
>I see traffic through our moderation relay from news.sentex.ca (including
>one on 2006-10-23 from Nicholas to rastb5m, which I don't see in the group).
>So it's not the obvious "your server is broken" thing.
Yeah, that was my last attempt. I contact Jay and got the response:
"Okay, well in that case, you know those registration forms you've been
receiving every time you tried to post? You have to actually, you know,
return one, if you want to be able to post from that address."
When I replied that I hadn't received one of those, you know, forms
for weeks, and when I had tried to return it at that time, all I had
gotten back was error messages, I never got a response.
Nick
Cheryl Martin
Tim Skirvin <tski...@killfile.org> wrote:
>nf...@shell1.sentex.ca (Nicholas Fitzpatrick) writes:
>
>>>> Sometimes it works for years, and then breaks. I can't post to
>>>> rec.arts.sf.tv.babylon5.moderated any more, without any explanation why.
>
>>> Have you contacted the moderators? I haven't had any problems
>>> with rast.b5.moderated lately, but it seems like there's a constant 10% of
>>> the population that have a hard time of it. I can help you work it out
>>> too, if you'd like, but since I don't moderate the group it may be a bit
>>> tricky.
>
>> I did contact Jay, but he brushed it off, and said to just post again.
>
> Mail him again, and Cc: me. I'll see if I can help. It may be a
>problem with your server, so we could try news.killfile.org if
>necessary...
Don't email Jay. Email the moderation board. b5m...@deepthot.org
*sheesh*
Cheryl
--
*Moderator: rec.arts.sf.tv.babylon5.moderated ,sci.space.moderated *
*http://www.grumpywitch.org http://www.cafepress.com/grumpywitch *
*If one dream should fall and break into a thousand pieces, never be*
*afraid to pick one of those pieces up and begin again-Flavia Weedn *
Cheryl Martin
Send a blank email to: b5mod-r...@deepthot.org and follow the
instructions. Traffic on the newsgroup has been up due to the official
announcement of B5: TLT. Make sure you aren't using any funky
encoding when you reply. Most often, when the registration doesn't
work, it is because the person is using html in their email.
Again, stop emailing Jay and email the moderatin board. You'll get
better response that way.
Jay is working a high stress, high demand job (he is oncall from
5:30a-7p every fucking weekday and on Saturdays)
Tim Skirvin
> Tim Skirvin <tski...@killfile.org> wrote:
>> Personally, I feel that Marty has shown great patience and restraint in
>> his dealings with the poster to which he was responding in the post
>> you're quoting. Marty has consistently given saur the benefit of the
>> doubt and bent over backwards to treat him reasonably, in the face of
>> several months of attacks and abuse. He is the wronged party here.
> Do you remember writing the text below to me in email?
Posting private email, that'll help keep things civil! *sigh*
Tell you what, I'll get back to this later, after I've calmed down a bit.
*later*
> Message-id: <2006072303...@killfile.org>
> I agree, and I think that you're perfectly right
> to be upset. I'd apologize for Marty if I thought
> it was appropriate; but it's not. I can promise
> that I'll do what I can to keep this kind of thing
> from happening again.
Indeed, I think that I made a mistake in giving you as much
sympathy as I did. I thought that you had been misinterpreted, that you
had then complained, and that you had then been ignored for some reason;
instead, you had mailed the wrong address, and rather than say anything
you merely worked yourself into a fury that you were willing to take out
on anybody and everybody associated with the Board. I spent some time
trying to calm you down, but you were not to be consoled; and while I
still think that you have no evil motives, I'm not convinced that you
deserve any pity or support at this point.
Marty made a mistake of interpretation, and has done everything
he can reasonably do to make up for it. You have not given him an inch in
the last several months. At this point, the feud is on your hands.
> I can no longer sit idly by while you play both ends against the middle.
> You lied about my involvement in your UVP, and you are lying about what you
> said to me about Marty. Enough.
I have never lied to you or about you, saur.
Nicholas Fitzpatrick
Cheryl Martin <zof...@deepthot.org> wrote:
>
>Don't email Jay. Email the moderation board. b5m...@deepthot.org
>
>*sheesh*
Ah, that's interesting. I've been on that newsgroup (and it's
predecessors) before any B5 was even aired, and I've never realised
there was a moderation board!
Which raises the question, what does a complete newbie do, when their
post to news.groups.proposals fails ...and the only way they no
this, is nothing happens?
Nick
Tim Skirvin
>>> I did contact Jay, but he brushed it off, and said to just post again.
>> Mail him again, and Cc: me. I'll see if I can help. It may be a
>> problem with your server, so we could try news.killfile.org if
>> necessary...
> Don't email Jay. Email the moderation board. b5m...@deepthot.org
Indeed! My apologies, Cheryl.
Nicholas Fitzpatrick
Cheryl Martin <zof...@deepthot.org> wrote:
>
>Again, stop emailing Jay and email the moderatin board. You'll get
>better response that way.
>
>Jay is working a high stress, high demand job (he is oncall from
I just wanted to note, that I wasn't blaming Jay for this. He's
been around forever ... and did seem a bit more terse than usual ...
so I figured it was something like this. I'm not trying to make
a fuss about this either ... I was just using this as an example.
>5:30a-7p every fucking weekday and on Saturdays)
Uh, that's not that long of a week! Particularly if only
on call ... (perhaps I need a new job ... I'm on call 24/7).
Nick
Cheryl Martin
Nicholas Fitzpatrick <nf...@shell1.sentex.ca> wrote:
>In article <ejg96t$ei8$1...@dent.deepthot.org>,
>Cheryl Martin <zof...@deepthot.org> wrote:
>>
>>Don't email Jay. Email the moderation board. b5m...@deepthot.org
>>
>>*sheesh*
>
>Ah, that's interesting. I've been on that newsgroup (and it's
>predecessors) before any B5 was even aired, and I've never realised
>there was a moderation board!
In the beginning there were 9 on the board plus two oversight advisory
types. All the mods were listed in the FAQ. I'm trying to get Jay to
find a few minutes so that we can have the FAQs posted regularly due
to all the new folks that have suddenly appeared due to the new B5
stuff.
>
>Which raises the question, what does a complete newbie do, when their
>post to news.groups.proposals fails ...and the only way they no
>this, is nothing happens?
I hope there is a FAQ posted on news.groups periodically about this
new fangled process.
Cheryl Martin
Nicholas Fitzpatrick <nf...@shell1.sentex.ca> wrote:
>In article <ejg9ep$ei8$2...@dent.deepthot.org>,
>Cheryl Martin <zof...@deepthot.org> wrote:
>>
>>Again, stop emailing Jay and email the moderatin board. You'll get
>>better response that way.
>>
>>Jay is working a high stress, high demand job (he is oncall from
>
>I just wanted to note, that I wasn't blaming Jay for this. He's
>been around forever ... and did seem a bit more terse than usual ...
>so I figured it was something like this. I'm not trying to make
>a fuss about this either ... I was just using this as an example.
Okie dokie. His job stress is causing me stress. It is not healthy
for him.
>
>>5:30a-7p every fucking weekday and on Saturdays)
>
>Uh, that's not that long of a week! Particularly if only
>on call ... (perhaps I need a new job ... I'm on call 24/7).
In addition to his duties 8-5 at work, programming, sysadmining and
whatever else IT type stuff they need doing. He got hired to do
programming and then the other IT staff quit so he got all the duties.
Tim Skirvin
> That's a little rude isn't it? Please be civil.
Please understand, when you enter a discussion swearing and
implying that the other party has no legitimacy, and then demand that that
other party must be impeached, you don't have much room to later demand
civility. In my estimation, you have been treated far better by the
Board's members than you have treated them.
saur
> I have never lied to you or about you, saur.
see Message-ID: <tskirvin.20061014162738$13...@cairo.ks.uiuc.edu>
Doug lied. He said I declined something. You said that he was "exactly
right" in his statement. What did I decline? I've already produced the
message in which I made an offer to you to do the work. I never asked for a
title or a position. I just offered to do some work.
If you can't produce the offer that I supposedly declined, then you lied
when you publicly confirmed Doug's statement.
Tim Skirvin
>> I have never lied to you or about you, saur.
> see Message-ID: <tskirvin.20061014162738$13...@cairo.ks.uiuc.edu>
> Doug lied. He said I declined something.
It seems to me that "declined" was a polite way of saying "you
left the list".
> You said that he was "exactly right" in his statement. What did I
> decline?
As far as I'm concerned, you declined my request/offer to build
and lead the Usenet Volunteer Pollsters. I first asked you - perhaps too
obliquely, but nevertheless I asked - back in June. I reiterated my offer
as clearly as I could think of (with all caps and everything!) a month ago.
You have silently declined each time.
> I've already produced the message in which I made an offer to you to do
> the work. I never asked for a title or a position. I just offered to
> do some work.
And I have asked you to do it. Where is the disconnect here?
Tim Skirvin
> Which raises the question, what does a complete newbie do, when their
> post to news.groups.proposals fails ...and the only way they no
> this, is nothing happens?
Hopefully they'll read the FAQ for more information. (No, it's
not written yet, but the moderation team is working on it.)
I'm also offering a web interface to the group, as soon as it
pops up:
http://news.killfile.org/?group=news.groups.proposals
Nicholas Fitzpatrick
Tim Skirvin <tski...@killfile.org> wrote:
>nf...@shell1.sentex.ca (Nicholas Fitzpatrick) writes:
>
>> That's a little rude isn't it? Please be civil.
>
> Please understand, when you enter a discussion swearing and
>implying that the other party has no legitimacy, and then demand that that
>other party must be impeached, you don't have much room to later demand
>civility. In my estimation, you have been treated far better by the
>Board's members than you have treated them.
What are you talking about? I wasn't swearing, unless one considers
bullshit a swearword! But that's hardly a swearword these days ...
I haven't demanded that anyone be impeached ... though I have questioned
the behaviour of single member, who has been most rude. But I don't think
you can argue that his rude behaviour is justified because I have commented
about his rude behaviour, as his rude behaviour predates my comments on this.
And I don't think I've said anything about any part not having legitimacy?
I'm not sure what you are referring to here.
My treatment has been very rude. I don't think I did anything to justify
this, and if this is how people who are not "experts" in the area area
treated, then there is a big problem!
Nick
Daryl Hunt
"Nicholas Fitzpatrick" <nf...@shell1.sentex.ca> wrote in message
news:455b959f$1...@news.sentex.net...
> In article <ejg3mn$o19$1...@jik2.kamens.brookline.ma.us>,
> Jonathan Kamens <j...@kamens.brookline.ma.us> wrote:
>>nf...@shell1.sentex.ca (Nicholas Fitzpatrick) writes:
>>>answer.
>>
>>Anyone who has been reading along knows that Marty and others have
>>responded thoughtfully and at length to the various points you and
>>others have made. Then you and others have just kept making those
>>same points over and over again, without bringing anything new into
>>the discussion. "Tough" is a somewhat obvious shorthand for, "I'm not
>>going to keep repeating myself over and over, just so you can keep
>>repeating yourself over and over, when neither of us is going to
>>convince the other of anything and we're both just wasting time and
>>bandwidth."
>
> I haven't followed most of the previous discussion in detail, when it
> wandered off the subject that most concerned, me, which is moderation.
> And as the previous discussion didn't seem to touch it much at all, there
> is much I haven't read.
>
> The use of such dismissive terms is arrogant, and is not to be tolerated.
>
>
> That's insulting. Please apologise.
>
>> Two sayings of which I'm fond
>
>>1) "I'm shocked, shocked to find there is gambling going on here."
>>
>>2) "If you poke a sleeping tiger, expect to get bit."
>
> What are you talking about? I can't relate these sayings to anything
> going on in these discussions?
>
>>>How do we get people removed from the management board?
>>
>>better job and they should listen to you instead of the existing Board.
>
> No seriously. What is the procedure for removal of board members?
> moderation panel for the group in question does ... I didn't really look
> into that, as it wasn't my concern).
There isn't any. They are the King and Barons and Baronesses of the
Kingdom. Short of a full fledged storming of the Castle there isn't a thing
anyone can do. Ever wonder why all the Kingdoms have failed at one time or
another?
saur
> It seems to me that "declined" was a polite way of saying "you left the
> list".
That is a tortured use of the English language. Doug used the phrase "left
the list" to describe his own behavior. If that's what he meant about me,
that's what he would have said.
> As far as I'm concerned, you declined my request/offer to build and lead
> the Usenet Volunteer Pollsters. I first asked you - perhaps too
> obliquely, but nevertheless I asked - back in June. I reiterated my
> offer as clearly as I could think of (with all caps and everything!) a
> month ago. You have silently declined each time.
The only request you made of me was to join the list. I did so. I
contributed. I offered to do some work. 10 days after making my offer I
left the list without seeing a response from you. I wasn't on the list a
month ago. As previously stated, I left the list because I'm not giving
Marty any more material to steal and post on his website. There is no
chance of my returning to the list until Marty explains his behavior without
referring to my motives. The issue is Marty's behavior, not mine.
> And I have asked you to do it. Where is the disconnect here?
Perhaps in your mind (or in your tortured use of the English language that I
do not understand) you made such a request. I haven't seen one. This is
the only text I've seen:
[Tim]
> It'd be nice if we had a Bill Aten-type standing up and saying "we're
> talking about this" and other public-face things; and more importantly, I
> think that someone needs to be in charge of pushing things along, to make
> sure that progress is made.
[saur]
> Well, I certainly don't have the prestige that Bill has earned. It would
> be nice if someone who did [have it] came forward. I would be delighted
> to be his/her helper!
I still don't see you asking me to be the new Bill Alten, but if you were,
then you've had months to correct my misinterpretation of your remarks. My
text was posted on the list on June 12th. My response to your Bill Alten
comment makes it clear that I do not believe you were referring to me.
Please stop lying about my participation in your UVP. No one wants to keep
reading this. As soon as you stop lying, I'll stop posting it. Thank you.
Daryl Hunt
"Tim Skirvin" <tski...@killfile.org> wrote in message
news:tskirvin.20061116001521$1d...@cairo.ks.uiuc.edu...
> saur <sa...@nyc.rr.com> writes:
>
>>> I have never lied to you or about you, saur.
>
>> see Message-ID: <tskirvin.20061014162738$13...@cairo.ks.uiuc.edu>
>
>> Doug lied. He said I declined something.
>
> It seems to me that "declined" was a polite way of saying "you
> left the list".
>
>> You said that he was "exactly right" in his statement. What did I
>> decline?
>
> As far as I'm concerned, you declined my request/offer to build
> and lead the Usenet Volunteer Pollsters. I first asked you - perhaps too
> obliquely, but nevertheless I asked - back in June. I reiterated my offer
> as clearly as I could think of (with all caps and everything!) a month
> ago.
> You have silently declined each time.
>
>> I've already produced the message in which I made an offer to you to do
>> the work. I never asked for a title or a position. I just offered to
>> do some work.
>
> And I have asked you to do it. Where is the disconnect here?
IT seems to me that the Revolt of the Peasants may already be in the making,
King Timmay.
Daryl Hunt
> nf...@shell1.sentex.ca (Nicholas Fitzpatrick) writes:
>
>> That's a little rude isn't it? Please be civil.
>
> Please understand, when you enter a discussion swearing and
> implying that the other party has no legitimacy, and then demand that that
> other party must be impeached, you don't have much room to later demand
> civility. In my estimation, you have been treated far better by the
> Board's members than you have treated them.
Off with his head
Daryl Hunt
"Martin X. Moleski, SJ" <mol...@canisius.edu> wrote in message
news:455b952e$0$13005$c3e...@news.astraweb.com...
> On Wed, 15 Nov 2006 12:52:49 -0700, "Daryl Hunt"
> <dh...@celticommnospam.com> wrote in <455b7021$1...@news.i70west.com>:
>
>>"Martin X. Moleski, SJ" <mol...@canisius.edu> wrote in message
>>news:455b5c09$0$7014$c3e...@news.astraweb.com...
>
>>> I kept a straw poll of usenet feedback on the proposal.
>>> Most recent update here: <45588621$0$16851$c3e...@news.astraweb.com>.
>
>>> With a new negative today, the results are:
>
>>> There are 34 respondents who made more-or-less positive remarks.
>>> (Of the 34, 10 are members of the Big-8 Management Board).
>
>>> There are 11 respondents who pretty definitely oppose the idea.
>
>>> 1 person made an unambiguous abstention.
>
>>> 5 people made remarks that could not be pigeonholed.
>
>>Wrong. And there have been more people commenting to the negative.
>
> I offer again, as I did the last time you made this
> accusation, to place you where you would like to be
> placed and to add any message-IDs to the list of
> posts from people objecting to the idea.
Easy answer and I won't need a message-ID. I stated that it was not a good
idea yet I am not securely counted as a Nay. Instead, you created a stupid
group and placed my name in it so it wouldn't count as a Nay. I wonder how
many others you have done this to as well. If you play games with one
chances are you are with others as well.
Now, what is the REAL count without your BS.
What you are starting to see is the beginning of a Serf Revolt. Watch out,
Prince Martin, it could continue to snowball into the Castle Keep getting
the old French Treatment.
Nicholas Fitzpatrick
Daryl Hunt <dh...@celticommnospam.com> wrote:
>
>"Tim Skirvin" <tski...@killfile.org> wrote in message
>news:tskirvin.20061115235922$75...@cairo.ks.uiuc.edu...
>>
>> implying that the other party has no legitimacy, and then demand that that
>> other party must be impeached, you don't have much room to later demand
>> civility. In my estimation, you have been treated far better by the
>> Board's members than you have treated them.
>
>Off with his head
That's also out of line. Tim's doing a fine job from what I can see.
Threatening physical violence doesn't seem appropriate.
Nick
Tim Skirvin
> The only request you made of me was to join the list.
Hardly. Is your email working at this address?
> I still don't see you asking me to be the new Bill Alten,
You're obviously not getting my email, then. Please send me
something from an address that works, and I'll bounce you everything I've
written to you privately over the last few months.
Kathy Morgan
> The word "censor" is full of negative conotations. Yes, there will be
> material that won't appear in the new group. It is entirely possible
> that removing material from a discussion can make that discussion more
> useful.
For instance, the meta discussion and rudeness that Nicholas Fitzpatrick
has been objecting to will be remaining here in news.groups, while
news.groups.proposals concentrates on discussion of active proposals.
--
Kathy - If you're reading this in your web browser from Google or
similar forum, NNTP "newsreaders" are a better way to access the
content. <http://www.aptalaska.net/~kmorgan/how-it-works.html>
Links to NNTP newsreaders at <http://www.newsreaders.com/>
Nicholas Fitzpatrick
Kathy Morgan <kmo...@spamcop.net> wrote:
>Steve Bonine <s...@pobox.com> wrote:
>
>> The word "censor" is full of negative conotations. Yes, there will be
>> material that won't appear in the new group. It is entirely possible
>> that removing material from a discussion can make that discussion more
>> useful.
>
>For instance, the meta discussion and rudeness that Nicholas Fitzpatrick
>has been objecting to will be remaining here in news.groups, while
>news.groups.proposals concentrates on discussion of active proposals.
Though much of the rudeness I was objecting to was from board members
being dismissive of suggestions from the grassroots.
I do recall seeing some discussion on whether board members sit on
the moderation panel ... given that we are already in a position where
the panel would hypothetically be moderating board members, I hope
that everyone came to the consensus that there shouldn't be board members
on the moderation panel?
Don't see what's wrong with censor; it's a perfectly good word. Negative
connotations are in the eye of the beholder!
Nick
Brian Mailman
> ...- it's only with B5 back in production, that
> I've had any reason to post at all ...
When did that happen? New episodes, what? Info?
B/
Steve Bonine
> I do recall seeing some discussion on whether board members sit on
> the moderation panel ... given that we are already in a position where
> the panel would hypothetically be moderating board members, I hope
> that everyone came to the consensus that there shouldn't be board members
> on the moderation panel?
The issue is not whether Board members are on the moderation panel, but
whether submissions from Board members will receive special treatment.
Interestingly enough, we had a discussion just today on the moderators'
list about this topic. Exactly the same standards will apply to all
submittors.
> Don't see what's wrong with censor; it's a perfectly good word. Negative
> connotations are in the eye of the beholder!
Just as the current perfect environment in news.groups is in the eye of
the beholder.
By the way, many of the questions you've asked in this thread could have
been answered by reading the article at the top of the thread -- the
results posting for news.groups.proposal. It contains the rationale for
creating the group (including the quote from Russ), the charter that
describes what will and will not be censored [since you are so fond of
the word], and a list of the individuals on the moderation panel.
Steve Bonine, head moderator for news.groups.proposals
Martin X. Moleski, SJ
>In article <455ba222$0$7054$c3e...@news.astraweb.com>,
>Martin X. Moleski, SJ <mol...@canisius.edu> wrote:
>>No, thanks.
>I'm sorry. You write something that doesn't make sense, I ask
>for clarification, in a non-judgemental way, and you say no?
>How is that appropriate behaviour?
I don't have to answer every question
that is asked me.
>>> Your admitting
>>>your responses are inadequate?
>>Yep.
>Then, I think you should resign from this board then, as you are
>inadequate by your own admission!
I don't consider that rebutting your judgment of
my character a hanging offense.
You do.
>> ... read the wiki.
>>
>>http://www.big-8.org/dokuwiki/doku.php?id=policies:board_voting
>
>I don't do wiki's. This is Usenet, and shouldn't refer to HTTP
>in order to provide the information. Should be a regular FAQ.
There are on the order of 40 pages of information
on the wiki.
I don't think it is wise or reasonable to make that
a regular FAQ.
If you don't want to go where the information is,
you may remain clueless and uninformed. It's your
choice.
>>>>Some of the members with decision-making abilities
>>>>are using killfiles so that they don't read things
>>>>posted by some users at all.
>>>I hope your kidding.
>>No.
>Can you tell us who these people are, so that we can consider
>whether they are suitable?
No.
>>>>You're looking at the end of a conversation I had
>>>>with saur, not the beginning.
>>>I looked through this entire thread. Can I ask that we not
>>>have meta threads going on, as it is unfair to everyone. And if you
>>>need to do this, pleae put in the appropriate references.
>>OK, I've changed the subject to help get this out of
>>that thread.
>Uh, how does changing the subject line, change the thread, when you
>provided references to the previous post?
It becomes sub-thread with its own subject line.
If you wanted to change it, in order to meet your own
standards, YOU should have changed the subject line
and references (if that's how YOU want things to
happen).
Marty
--
Member of the Big-8 Management Board (B8MB).
See http://www.big-8.org for more information.
Martin X. Moleski, SJ
>In article <455ba119$0$7054$c3e...@news.astraweb.com>,
>Martin X. Moleski, SJ <mol...@canisius.edu> wrote:
>>On 15 Nov 2006 17:33:03 -0500, nf...@shell1.sentex.ca (Nicholas
>>Fitzpatrick) wrote in <455b959f$1...@news.sentex.net>:
>>>I haven't followed most of the previous discussion in detail ...
>>>The use of such dismissive terms is arrogant, and is not to be tolerated.
>>I now dismiss your judgment of me using ten words.
>That response is just totally and completely insulting ...
Success!
> ... and uncalled
>for.
So you say. <shrug>
>Never in my years here, have I seen such arrogance from someone
>who is supposed to be an ambassador for Usenet.
Pasta faggiole!
>Is this how you reply to everyone here?
Nope.
>>Seems to me you've conceded already that you don't
>>know what you're talking about.
>This is just totally uncalled for. You and I have never crossed
>paths before, but you are rude, insulting, and acting like a complete
>prick.
Do you notice any judgmental, rude, or insulting terms
in what you have just written?
> There is no call for your behaviour. Please apologise now.
No, thanks.
Jayne Kulikauskas
http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Babylon_5:_The_Lost_Tales
--
Jayne Check out soc.men.moderated. If your news provider
doesn't carry it, ask. While you're waiting for it use
the web interface:
http://news.killfile.org/?group=soc.men.moderated
Nicholas Fitzpatrick
Direct to DVD anthology series. The first DVD is currently being
shot in Vancouver, JMS is producing, writing, and directing. 90
minutes or so, with 2 "episodes". Apparently Bruce Boxleitner,
Tracy Scoggins, Peter Woodward and some say Jerry Doyle are in it.
Set about 5 years after the end of B5 (not the final final episode,
obviously ...).
Bit of an experiment for everyone. Future "episodes" will be a function
of DVD sales. JMS has been posting in rastb5m. His posts can be
quickly found at:
http://google.ca/groups/search?enc_author=cImEGA8AAAAi99W0U90iYga2NplvaD38&scoring=d
(if google still works ..)
There's a page at:
http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Babylon_5:_The_Lost_Tales for those who
wiki.
If he pulls this off, it could be interesting!!
Nick
Martin X. Moleski, SJ
>> I offer again, as I did the last time you made this
>> accusation, to place you where you would like to be
>> placed and to add any message-IDs to the list of
>> posts from people objecting to the idea.
>
>Easy answer and I won't need a message-ID. I stated that it was not a good
>idea yet I am not securely counted as a Nay.
When I tried to figure out what you were saying, this is
how you replied in <4532c674$1...@news.i70west.com>:
>You can put me down for being opposed to not doing your homework first.
>>>>>I await your next move. I know it will be surprising at least to all
>>>> P-K4.
>>>R3-p8
>> Sorry. I only have a 2-D board.
>What, no L2-R4-Q8?
This is why I put you in the category "playing on a different
game board." Your statement about "being opposed to not
doing your homework first" does not reveal (to me) how you
stood on the general idea.
>Instead, you created a stupid
>group and placed my name in it so it wouldn't count as a Nay. I wonder how
>many others you have done this to as well. If you play games with one
>chances are you are with others as well.
Each of the individual groups has a message ID attached
to the nyms so that, if you wish, you may read the message
that I could not force into a predetermined pigeonhole.
>Now, what is the REAL count without your BS.
34 more-or-less in favor, 12 definitely opposed, 1 definite abstention,
4 that I couldn't categorize.
>What you are starting to see is the beginning of a Serf Revolt. Watch out,
>Prince Martin, it could continue to snowball into the Castle Keep getting
>the old French Treatment.
Pasta faggiole.
Nicholas Fitzpatrick
Martin X. Moleski, SJ <mol...@canisius.edu> wrote:
>
>>Uh, how does changing the subject line, change the thread, when you
>>provided references to the previous post?
>
>It becomes sub-thread with its own subject line.
Depends on your newsreader I guess. Mine keeps it in the
same thread, with simply an indication someone changed the subject
line.
Nick
Nicholas Fitzpatrick
Bob Officer <bobof...@127.0.0.7> wrote:
>>
>>For instance, the meta discussion and rudeness that Nicholas Fitzpatrick
>>has been objecting to will be remaining here in news.groups, while
>>news.groups.proposals concentrates on discussion of active proposals.
>
I'm sorry, I'm not getting that one. Can you explain it for those who
are not up on the in-jokes?
Nick
Nicholas Fitzpatrick
Martin X. Moleski, SJ <mol...@canisius.edu> wrote:
>>Never in my years here, have I seen such arrogance from someone
>>who is supposed to be an ambassador for Usenet.
>
>Pasta faggiole!
English please - I'm unfamiliar with that phrase.
Nick
Martin X. Moleski, SJ
As I said in my last post, feel free then to
change the reference to meet YOUR standards.
Martin X. Moleski, SJ
>>Pasta faggiole!
Pasta-with-bean soup.
Nicholas Fitzpatrick
Martin X. Moleski, SJ <mol...@canisius.edu> wrote:
>
>As I said in my last post, feel free then to
>change the reference to meet YOUR standards.
Uh, okay ... even if I wanted to ... how do I add a Reference to someone
else's post?
Nick
Aratzio
<bobof...@127.0.0.7> got double secret probation because:
>On Wed, 15 Nov 2006 16:49:52 -0900, in news.groups,
>kmo...@spamcop.net (Kathy Morgan) wrote:
>
>>Steve Bonine <s...@pobox.com> wrote:
>>
>>> The word "censor" is full of negative conotations. Yes, there will be
>>> material that won't appear in the new group. It is entirely possible
>>> that removing material from a discussion can make that discussion more
>>> useful.
>>
>>For instance, the meta discussion and rudeness that Nicholas Fitzpatrick
>>has been objecting to will be remaining here in news.groups, while
>>news.groups.proposals concentrates on discussion of active proposals.
>
>I guess we can say "bitches" there.
Only if Kathy thinks you are being tongue-in-cheek regardless of your
past usage.
Nicholas Fitzpatrick
Martin X. Moleski, SJ <mol...@canisius.edu> wrote:
>On 15 Nov 2006 22:04:19 -0500, nf...@shell1.sentex.ca (Nicholas
>Fitzpatrick) wrote in <455bd533$1...@news.sentex.net>:
>
>>In article <455bd018$0$26456$c3e...@news.astraweb.com>,
>>Martin X. Moleski, SJ <mol...@canisius.edu> wrote:
>
>>>>Never in my years here, have I seen such arrogance from someone
>>>>who is supposed to be an ambassador for Usenet.
>
>>>Pasta faggiole!
>
>>English please - I'm unfamiliar with that phrase.
>
>Pasta-with-bean soup.
I assumed there was actually some meaning ...
Wayne Brown
> saur <sa...@nyc.rr.com> writes:
>
>> Do you remember writing the text below to me in email?
>
> Posting private email, that'll help keep things civil! *sigh*
> Tell you what, I'll get back to this later, after I've calmed down a bit.
So, it upsets you to have your lies and hypocrisy exposed in public,
eh, Mr. Prom Queen?
--
Wayne Brown <fwb...@bellsouth.net> (HPCC #1104)
Þæs ofereode, ðisses swa mæg. ("That passed away, this also can.")
from "Deor," in the Exeter Book (folios 100r-100v)
Martin X. Moleski, SJ
You change the reference header in YOUR post.
When people reply to it, their replies will no longer
appear in the original thread.
I'm content with changing the subject line. People
can kill the thread by filtering on the subject.
Martin X. Moleski, SJ
Yes. It means "pasta-with-bean soup" in Italian.
Pronunciations (and spelling) vary. I learned
a dialect version.
Mark Kramer
Wayne Brown <fwb...@bellsouth.net> wrote:
>Nicholas Fitzpatrick <nf...@shell1.sentex.ca> wrote:
>> Tough? How DARE YOU! That is a totally inadequate and unresponsive
>> answer. How do we get people removed from the management board?
>
>He's just using those wonderful "people skills" he learned in the
>priesthood.
He's just reinforcing the need for a moderated group by behaving in the
manner that he wants moderated out of the new group. He cannot control
himself here, so he'll have a handful of watchful people vetting his
articles from now on. Under threat of being removed if they ignore his
advice.