2nd RFD: news.admin* reorganization
Jonathan Grobe
Proposed by Jonathan Grobe <gr...@ins.infonet.net>
[Two changes are made in this second RFD:
1. news.admin.technical (renaming to news.admin.technical.moderated and
adding news.admin.technical.help) proposals have been deleted.
news.admin.misc can handle the limited number of non-software questions
in this area, while software questions should be posted to the
news.software.* groups.
The software questions are more appropriate for the news.software* groups.
2. Moderators and moderation policy for news.admin.net-abuse.announce are
included.]
This RFD was (cross)-posted to the following groups: news.announce.newgroups,
news.groups, alt.config, alt.current-events.net-abuse, news.admin.misc,
news.admin.policy, news.config, news.future, news.newsites,
news.software.notes,us.config
This is a formal RFD (Request for Discussion) to: A. reorganize the
news.admin.* hierarchy and B. to delete some dead or duplicative groups
elsewhere in the news* hierarchy by:
1. Adding the following newsgroups:
news.admin.net-abuse.announce (moderated)
news.admin.net-abuse.announce Net abuse including spamming (Moderated)
news.admin.hierarchies (unmoderated)
news.admin.hierarchies Network news hierarchies
2. Rename the following group:
news.admin.policy to news.admin.net-abuse.misc
news.admin.net-abuse.misc Net abuse including spamming
3. Remove the following newsgroups (via renaming to news.admin.misc?):
news.config Postings of system down times and interruptions
news.future The Future Technology of Network News Systems
news.newsites Posting of new site announcements
news.software.notes Notesfile Software from the University of Illinois
SUMMARY:
Current Group Structure Proposed Group Structure
news.admin.misc news.admin.hierarchies
" " .policy " " .misc
" " .technical (moderated) " " .net-abuse.announce (moderated)
" " .net-abuse.misc
" " .technical (moderated)
news.config (Delete)
news.future (Delete)
news.newsites (Delete)
news.software.notes (Delete)
BACKGROUND AND RATIONALE:
Joe Buck was the proponent of a reorganization proposal two plus years
ago which replaced news.admin and news.sysadmin. The main motivation was
to subdivide the two main sources of traffic in news.admin: technical
issues important to the smooth running of the net and policy issues that
people care passionately about, but that really represent a different topic
area. The moderated news.admin.technical and unmoderated news.admin.policy
resulted. He added news.admin.misc for anythink else which didn't fall
under the first two groups, following the general rule that the hierarchies
should be made symmetrical and have a misc group. As an example he gave
people who want to flame on some technical subject who have been cut off by
the moderator for being grossly repetitive or whatever.
I feel there are problems with this reorganization so am proposing the
following changes:
1. News.admin.misc vs. news.admin.policy vs net-abuse:
The overwhelming majority of the postings in news.admin.misc are exactly
the same kinds of postings as news.admin.policy (with the exception of
a limited number of technical news administration postings in
news.admin.misc).
In a recent check about 79% of the postings to news.admin.policy were
cross-posted to news.admin.misc. And looking at the traffic about 80%
of the traffic in both news.admin.misc and in news.admin.policy are
concerned with net abuse. [These figures were from a period in late Dec.
when spamming was fairly heavy--so the figures will not be as large when
fewer spams are happening.]
Since there is no reason to have two separate groups dealing with the same
subject matter -- general/policy new administration postings and with such
a large amount of the postings in both groups dealing with net abuse I
propose to delete news.admin.policy and create news.admin.net-abuse.misc.
Thus the net abuse postings from new.admin.policy and news.admin.misc
should move to news.admin.net-abuse.misc; while the non-net-abuse postings
from news.admin.policy should join the large number of similar postings
in news.admin.misc.
There is such a tremendous amount of traffic posted when spams occur that
is is difficult to find such basic information as what spams are occurring,
how widespread is the spam, what site/who is behind the spam (many are
forged), has the system administrator at the offending site taken any action,
has the spam been cancelled. Thus it is difficult to keep up with net abuse
unless one is willing to spend a very substantial amount of time.
Thus I propose a moderated group:
news.admin.net-abuse.announce
The moderators are:
David Barr <ba...@pop.psu.edu>
Peter da Silva <pe...@bonkers.taronga.com>
Abby Franquemont-Guillory <abb...@tezcat.com>
Joel Furr <jf...@acpub.duke.edu>
Paul Phillips <pa...@CERF.NET>
For a description of the charter and moderation policy see the section
under Charters.
2. News Hierarchies Group:
There has been significant interest in the creation of new hierarchies
recently. The two most prominent examples being the us.* hierarchy and
the humanities.* hierarchy. Unfortunately there is no good place to
discuss the development of such hierarchies. For example the us.* hierarchy
was discussed in a mailing list instead of a newsgroup before the RFD
came out (and this was one factor in its defeat because there was a feeling
it was developed in secrecy), while it was discussed in three groups
(alt.config, news.admin.misc and news.groups) after the RFD came out.
Thus I propose news.admin.hierarchies.
3. Duplicative, Low Traffic Groups:
Concerning news.config, which is for the posting of system downtimes and
interruptions (according to its charter), people are no longer posting
them. Current postings fall into three areas: 1. Some people think that
news.config is about the configuration of news software and so the biggest
group of postings fit into the technical news administration type of posting.
2. Other people feel that news.config must be like alt.config so they
post newsgroup proposals here. 3. Others post a random misc. set of
postings here. These posts are more appropriate for news.admin.misc,
news.misc, the news.software.* groups or news.groups.
Concerning news.software.notes, which deals with the Notesfile software
from the University of Illinois. This group has virtually no traffic
(the current traffic seems to be about the Lotus Notes groupware).
Concerning news.future, less than one in ten of the postings concern
future technological developments in network news. The rest are the
same misc postings as in news.misc, news.admin.policy, and news.admin.misc.
58% of the postings are cross-posted elsewhere. And since there are
usually not many postings a day the traffic can easily be handled in
news.admin.misc, news.misc and the news.* software groups.
Concerning news.newsites, people are seldom posting the addition of new
sites anymore. The postings, few in number, include questions
like where can I get a newsfeed? Posts about web sites are appropriate
in the comp.infosystems.www.* groups, about internet providers in
alt.internet.services and alt.internet.access.wanted, other posts in
news.admin.misc, the news.software.* groups and new.misc.
CHARTERS
news.admin.hierarchies
Topics for discussion include the creation of proposed new hierarchies,
the removal of existing hierarchies, the modification of the rules and
customs governing the operation of existing hierarchies, advice for news
administrators on the management of hierarchies at their sites,
announcements and queries concerning hierarchies, futuristic ideas for
namespace management.
news.admin.net-abuse.announce (moderated)
Charter and guidelines for news.admin.net-abuse.announce
1. What is "net abuse"? Net abuse includes but is not limited to:
- "spams" - posting individual copies of any article to more than
ten or so groups. Or, excessive crossposting of non-germane
articles to more than ten or so groups.
- injection of malformed articles into the news system (broken
gateways, for example), or other forms of "roboposting" involving
large numbers of postings to one or more groups.
- Forging identity of postings
- Forged approval to moderated groups
- Forged cancellation of articles not included above
The purpose of this group is not to decide the guilt or innocence of
any parties, but rather to simply report on the activity (much like
the crime section found in many local newspapers). It must be kept
clear that the net is a new legal area, but it is also one with a
lot of unwritten rules. Postings to this group constitute what the
moderators feel is a violation of written or unwritten code of
conduct for a citizen of the net.
2. Posting of reports of this kind of activity in no way implies
that net-wide cancelation of such articles are to be encouraged.
How local news admins deal with such incidents is strictly up
to them. The moderators of this group should not be held
responsible for actions taken by others in response to
articles posted to news.admin.net-abuse.announce.
3. No moderator will engage in the following activities while being a
moderator:
- cancelation of any posts other than ones posted by them, excepting
for articles with forged approval to newsgroups they moderate (or,
if you are a news admin with appropriate approval, posts originating
from your site)
- Sending of "mailbombs", threats, abusive e-mail, or other
attacks in response to alleged net abuse.
4. We are committed to providing accurate information regarding
activities of net abuse (with emphasis on Usenet) in a
timely manner. However, as we must often rely on the reports of
others, whenever we have not confirmed a report ourselves we will
state so in the posting.
5. Right of Reply. The individual responsible for the alleged net abuse
and the management of the site from which it originated both have
the right to one (but no more than one) reply for the purpose of
justification, rebuttal, or reports of actions taken to correct or
counter the alleged abuse. This right may be extended as necessary
for further elaboration.
6. Examples of appropriate postings:
- reports of "spams", or large numbers of malformed articles
- reports of cancelation of "spams"
- reports by affected site regarding disciplinary or corrective action
- announcements of conferences, books, articles, or other
media on the subject of net abuse
- FAQ's regarding net abuse
7. Examples of inappropriate postings:
- redundant reports of spams or cancelation of spams
- "Hey, this guy posted an ad to comp.sys.xyz!"
8. Administravia
- Approval of postings will be made by a team of 5 moderators.
- Change of moderators will be made by majority. Forceable removal
of a moderator will be by consensus of remaining moderators.
- Any rules changes will be made by majority.
news.admin.net-abuse.misc
news.admin.net-abuse.misc is for the discussion of abuses of netnews and
email. Topics include "spamming" (posting the same message to multiple
newsgroups), newsgroup "flooding", forged cancellations, forged approval
to moderated groups, forged identity of posting, "renegade" sites,
proposed blacklists and boycotts, mailbombing, spamming mailing lists,
methods for resolving conflicts, other types of net abuse, deciding what
isn't net abuse and general issues of netiquette. Although commercial
posts are not inherently net-abuse, proper methods of posting commercial
material within the scope of this group.
PROCEDURE
This RFD is being issued in concordance with the guidelines set in
the "How to create a new usenet newsgroup" FAQ regularly posted to
news.announce.newgroups. Please refer to this article if you have any
questions about the newsgroup creation.
All discussion about the merits of this proposal should occur on news.groups.
Please do not mail comments to me.
Unless the discussion indicates a need to resubmit a new RFD, a call
for votes (CFV) will be posted approximately a week or so after
the posting of this RFD--note this is a second RFD and does not
require the three to four week discussion period of a first RFD.
-----------------------------------------------------------------------------
Jonathan Grobe gr...@ins.infonet.net
Ian Kluft
NEWS.ADMIN REORGANIZATION
news.admin.hierarchies (unmoderated)
news.admin.net-abuse.announce (moderated)
news.admin.net-abuse.misc (unmoderated)
- proposed to replace news.admin.policy
removal of news.config
removal of news.future
removal of news.newsites
removal of news.software.notes
- the proposed removal of these four groups would be implemented by
a rename to the existing news.admin.misc
Newsgroups lines:
news.admin.hierarchies Network news hierarchies.
news.admin.net-abuse.announce Information regarding net abuse (Moderated).
news.admin.net-abuse.misc Net abuse including spamming.
Not shown on the newgroup lines: the removal of news.config, news.future,
news.newsites, news.software.notes. They are proposed to be merged into
the existing news.admin.misc newsgroup, which has the description:
news.admin.misc General topics of network news administration
Votes must be received by 23:59:59 GMT, 3 April 1995.
This vote is being conducted by a neutral third party. For voting
questions only contact Ian Kluft <ikl...@amdahl.com>. For questions about
the proposed groups contact Jonathan Grobe <gr...@ins.infonet.net>.
Note: This is the second reorganization of news.admin. The previous one
occurred in June through August 1992. Details are available at
ftp://ftp.uu.net/usenet/news.announce.newgroups/news/news.admin-reorg
OFFICIAL SOURCES OF THE CFV
The only official sources for copies of this CFV are the UseNet newsgroups to
which it is posted including news.announce.newgroups and the e-mail server at
news-admin-...@amdahl.com
The CFV server will return a copy of the CFV to the sender. Your message
may be empty because any contents will be ignored.
RATIONALE
This is the rationale that was submitted by the proponent.
News administration discussion can be divided into two basic divisions:
technical issues (what news administrators need to know to operate their
systems) and policy issues. The techical issues are discussed in the
news.software* groups, news.admin.technical and are perhaps 10% of the
postings in news.admin.misc. The overwhelming majority of the postings
in news.admin.misc are exactly the same kinds of policy postings as in
news.admin.policy. In a recent check (late December) about 79% of the
postings to news.admin.policy were cross-posted to news.admin.misc, and
about 80% of the postings in both news.admin.misc and in news.admin.policy
were concerned with net abuse. [These figures were from a period when
spamming was fairly heavy--so the figures will not be as large when fewer
spams are happening.] Since there is no reason to have two separate groups
dealing with the same subject matter--general/policy new administration
postings and with such a large fraction of the postings in both groups
dealing with net abuse I propose to delete news.admin.policy and create
news.admin.net-abuse.misc. Thus the net abuse postings from
new.admin.policy and news.admin.misc should move to
news.admin.net-abuse.misc; while the non-net-abuse postings from
news.admin.policy should join the large number of similar postings ina
news.admin.misc.
There is too much traffic in the area of net abuse for a large number of
people to keep up with it. For example there are such a large number of
posts when spams occur that is is difficult to find such basic information
as what spams are occurring, how widespread the spam is, what site/who is
behind the spam (many are forged), the actions taken by the system
administrator at the offending site, and whether the spam been canceled.
Thus to provide this basic information I propose a moderated group:
news.admin.net-abuse.announce, which is basically going to act as a
"clearing house" to eliminate duplicate reports of abuse and spread
information to the community regarding specific events as well as a source
of other information. [Note that posts are in no way official or binding.]
There has been significant interest in the creation of new hierarchies
recently. The two most prominent examples being the us.* hierarchy and
the humanities.* hierarchy. Unfortunately there is no good place to
discuss the development of such hierarchies. For example the us.*
hierarchy was discussed in a mailing list instead of a newsgroup before
the RFD came out (and this was one factor in its defeat because there was
a feeling it was developed in secrecy), while it was discussed in three
groups (alt.config, news.admin.misc and news.groups) after the RFD came
out. Thus I propose news.admin.hierarchies.
Concerning news.config, which is for the posting of system downtimes and
interruptions (according to its charter), people are no longer posting
them. Current postings fall into three areas: 1. Some people think that
news.config is about the configuration of news software and so the biggest
group of postings fit into the technical news administration type of
posting. 2. Other people feel that news.config must be like alt.config so
they post newsgroup proposals here. 3. Others post a random misc. set of
postings here. These posts are more appropriate for news.admin.misc,
news.misc, the news.software.* groups or news.groups. Thus I propose to
remove news.config (by renaming it to news.admin.misc).
Concerning news.future, less than one in ten of the postings concern
future technological developments in network news. The rest are the
same misc postings as in news.misc, news.admin.policy, and
news.admin.misc. 58% of the postings are cross-posted elsewhere. And
since there are usually not many postings a day the traffic can easily be
handled in news.admin.misc, news.misc and the news.* software groups. Thus
I propose to remove news.future (by renaming it to news.admin.misc).
Concerning news.newsites, people are seldom posting the addition of new
sites anymore. The postings, few in number, include questions
like where can I get a newsfeed? Posts about web sites are appropriate
in the comp.infosystems.www.* groups, about internet providers in
alt.internet.services and alt.internet.access.wanted, other posts in
news.admin.misc, the news.software.* groups and new.misc. Thus I
propose to remove news.future (by renaming it to news.admin.misc).
Concerning news.software.notes, which deals with the Notesfile software
from the University of Illinois; this group has virtually no traffic
(the current traffic seems to be about the Lotus Notes groupware).
Thus I propose to remove news.software.notes (by renaming it to
news.admin.misc).
CHARTERS
news.admin.hierarchies Charter
Topics for discussion include the creation of proposed new hierarchies,
the removal of existing hierarchies, the modification of the rules and
customs governing the operation of existing hierarchies, advice for news
administrators on the management of hierarchies at their sites,
announcements and queries concerning hierarchies, futuristic ideas for
namespace management.
news.admin.net-abuse.announce Charter and Guidelines
1. What topics are relevant to this group? Events associated with net
abuse, such as:
- posting many individual copies of any article.
Or, excessive crossposting of non-germane articles.
- injection of malformed articles into the news system (broken
gateways, for example), or other forms of "roboposting" involving
large numbers of postings to one or more groups.
- Forging identity of postings
- Forged approval to moderated groups
- Forged cancellation of articles not included above. Note that
cancellation of net abuse articles is also relevant to the
topic of net abuse.
- Use of rmgroup/newgroup in an abusive manner
- large-scale mailings to mailing lists or other mail-bombing
Postings to this group may also include announcements relevant
to the topic of net abuse, such as news reports, reviews, and
conferences, and possible net-abuse FAQs.
The purpose of this group is not to decide the guilt or innocence of
any parties, but rather to simply report on the activity (much like
the crime section found in many local newspapers). It must be kept
clear that the net is a new legal area, but it is also one with a
lot of unwritten rules. The moderators are in no way are attempting
to act as judges, lawyers, or mediators.
2. Posting of reports of this kind of activity in no way implies
that net-wide cancellation of such articles are to be encouraged.
How local news admins deal with such incidents is strictly up
to them. The moderators of this group should not be held
responsible for actions taken by others in response to
articles posted to news.admin.net-abuse.announce.
3. No moderator will engage in the following activities:
- cancellation of any posts other than ones posted by them, excepting
articles with forged approval to newsgroups they moderate or,
if they are a news admin, posts originating from their site
(following the local site's procedures).
- Sending of "mailbombs", threats, abusive e-mail, or other
attacks in response to alleged net abuse.
4. We are committed to providing accurate information regarding
events related to net abuse (with emphasis on Usenet) in a
timely manner. However, as we the moderators must often rely on
the reports of others, whenever we have not confirmed a report
ourselves we will state so in the posting.
5. Right of Reply. If posts have been made in this group concerning an
individual's alleged net abuse and the individual and/or site from
which it originated have suffered negative consequences in the form
of articles cancelled, accounts cancelled, or substantial negative
email; then the individual and site each have the right to one (but
no more than one) reply for the purpose of justification, rebuttal,
or reports of actions taken to correct or cancel the alleged abuse.
6. Examples of inappropriate postings:
- redundant reports of events
- Trivial events, for example "Hey, this guy posted an ad to
comp.sys.xyz!"
7. Administravia
- Approval of postings will be made by a team of 5 moderators.
- Change of moderators will be made by majority. Forcible removal
of a moderator will be by consensus of remaining moderators.
- Any rule changes will be made by majority of the moderators.
Proposed moderators:
David Barr <ba...@math.psu.edu>
Joel Furr <jf...@acpub.duke.edu>
Paul Phillips <pa...@CERF.NET>
Abby Franquemont-Guillory <abb...@tezcat.com>
- The group moderation software has not been set up yet; the
submission address and contact address will be determined before the
vote is over. Contact Dave Barr <ba...@math.psu.edu> for this
information.
news.admin.net-abuse.misc Charter
news.admin.net-abuse.misc is for the discussion of possible abuses of
netnews and e-mail. It is for the discussion of standards of net abuse,
to suggest appropriate courses of action (if any) to net abuse and to
post reports of alleged occurrences of net abuse. Relevant topics include
events associated with net abuse such as: spamming (posting many
individual copies of any article), excessive crossposting of non-germane
articles, injection of malformed articles into the news system (broken
gateways, for example), or other forms of "roboposting" involving large
numbers of postings to one or more groups, forging identity of postings,
forged approval to moderated groups, forged cancellation of articles
including cancellation of net abuse articles, use of rmgroup/newgroup in
an abusive manner, large-scale mailings to mailing lists or other
mail-bombing, deciding what isn't net abuse, general issues of netiquette,
methods for resolving conflicts, proposed blacklists and boycotts,
"renegade" sites, etc. Postings include news reports, reviews, and
conferences, and net-abuse FAQs. Although commercial posts are not
inherently net-abuse, proper methods of posting commercial material are
within the scope of this group.
SUMMARY
Because of the relative complexity of this proposal, an overview of the
proposed reorganization is added here to describe the big picture.
There are two existing newsgroups in the news.admin hierarchy which are not
changed by this proposal:
news.admin.misc (unmoderated)
news.admin.technical (moderated)
Three newsgroups are proposed to be created by this proposal:
news.admin.hierarchies (unmoderated)
news.admin.net-abuse.announce (moderated)
news.admin.net-abuse.misc (unmoderated)
Four newsgroups are proposed to be removed by this proposal:
news.config (unmoderated)
news.future (unmoderated)
news.newsites (unmoderated)
news.software.notes (unmoderated)
The removals, if approved by the vote, will be implemented by renaming the
groups to the already-existing news.admin.misc.
HOW TO VOTE
Erase everything above the top "-=-=-=-" line and erase everything
below the bottom "-=-=-=-" line. Do not erase anything between these
lines and do not change the group names. Basically, remove everything
except the ballot - we have to save them all on disk.
Give your name on the line that asks for it. For each group, place a YES or
NO in the brackets next to it to vote for or against it. If you don't want
to vote on a particular group, just leave the space blank. Don't worry
about spacing of the columns or any quote characters (">") that your reply
inserts.
Then mail the ballot to: news-ad...@amdahl.com
Just Replying to this message should work, but check the "To:" line.
Quick voting checklist:
1) Fill in the ballot form shown below.
2) Delete the rest of the CFV from your reply.
3) Make sure your reply goes to news-ad...@amdahl.com
========== BEGINNING OF BALLOT: Delete everything before this line ==========
news.admin reorganization Ballot <NA-REORG2-0001> (Don't remove this marker)
Give your real name here:
[Your Vote] Group
-----------------------------------------------------------------------
[ YES ] example.yes.vote
[ NO ] example.no.vote
[ ABSTAIN ] example.abstention
[ ] news.admin.hierarchies
[ ] news.admin.net-abuse.announce
[ ] news.admin.net-abuse.misc
[ ] REMOVE news.config (see proposal)
[ ] REMOVE news.future (see proposal)
[ ] REMOVE news.newsites (see proposal)
[ ] REMOVE news.software.notes (see proposal)
============= END OF BALLOT: Delete everything after this line ==============
Anything else may be rejected by the automatic vote counting program. The
votetaker will respond to your received ballots with an automated acknowledge-
ment by mail - if you do not receive one within several days, try again.
It's your responsibility to make sure your vote is registered correctly.
Only one vote per person, no more than one vote per account. Addresses and
votes of all voters will be published in the final voting results list.
Duplicate votes will be resolved in favor of the most recent valid vote.
WARNING: In cases where voting fraud is determined to have occurred, it is
standard operating procedure to delete ALL votes submitted by the violator.
When in doubt, ask the vote-taker.
David Stodolsky
alt.config,alt.current-events.net-abuse,news.admin.misc,news.admin.policy,news.config,
news.future,news.newsites,news.software.notes,us.config) it is stated:
> FIRST CALL FOR VOTES (of 2)
> NEWS.ADMIN REORGANIZATION
This is an unnecessary, poorly prepared, and potentially dangerous
reorganization. The problems with it are exacerbated by its scope,
which makes it difficult to understand or analyze, and by the fact
that it attempts to do several things never done before. If either
the reorganization itself, the moderation scheme or software, or the
people chosen for the proposed moderated news.admin.net-abuse.announce
newsgroup are inappropriate, the result could be a destabilization
of USENET and an explosion of Net abuse. At minimum, by reorganizing
the newsgroups now used for spam control, those efforts will be impeded.
Only one element of this proposal is really necessary.
The process by which the proposal was prepared was not completely
open and may even make this vote invalid. In the initial stage of
organizing the proposal, there was a request that persons who could
help with the moderation scheme should volunteer. I did so, but was
told my help would not be needed. The impression was of a self selected
group, not really open to "outside" inputs. This group now wants you
to vote them into power for the indefinite future.
The discussion of the charter for the moderated group was carried
out on a private mail list, not open to "outsiders". If someone wanted
to suggest changes they had to request a copy. This seems to violate the
rule that discussion should occur in news.groups. Similarly, a web
site was set up for the benefit of those with Internet connections.
What about people without that type of connection? Well, maybe you
should listen to your betters :-).
Several questions raised during discussion have not been answered.
The most important question has simply not been addressed. Is it
wise to create a high quality newsgroup for advertising Net abuse?
Will this just give potential abusers a way to learn about the latest
methods of abuse? Will it serve as a place for the media to focus their
unwanted attention? I am not interested in reading abusive posts or
even reading about abusive posts: Would mail lists be a better approach
toward controlling abuse and reducing its visibility on the Net? In a
previous post, I argued that the amount of effort devoted to
controlling Net abuse could be reduced by a factor of a thousand by
such an approach. This may not be correct, but it is foolish not to
consider alternative proposals for solution of the main problem
motivating this reorganization:
>There is too much traffic in the area of net abuse for a large number of
>people to keep up with it.
Finally, the proposal attempts to sidestep the whole question of how
they will define abuse. There is an appeal to "community standards",
but the fact is that it will be the unaided judgement of the moderators,
operating under unspecified rules (my specific question about this
was never answered), unaccountable to anyone, that will make that decision.
The need for some recourse, or right to confront unjust accusations
of abuse had been recognized, but the solution proposed is woefully
inadequate. A moderated abuse group may be a way to promote abusive behavior
on a scale which we have not yet seen. If someone is clever enough
to fool one of the moderators, then it could be you
that has your reputation destroyed and your account cancelled.
Send this one back to the drawing board folks, it will never fly,
but it might crash and burn.
Vote NO on all parts of this proposal, except news.admin.net-abuse.misc,
it is the only thing really needed.
Now, I will support my points by looking at the specifics of this CFV:
> RATIONALE
>
> This is the rationale that was submitted by the proponent.
Looks like only insiders get to know the name of the author(s).
> In a recent check (late December) about 79% of the
> postings to news.admin.policy were cross-posted to news.admin.misc, and
> about 80% of the postings in both news.admin.misc and in news.admin.policy
> were concerned with net abuse. [These figures were from a period when
> spamming was fairly heavy--so the figures will not be as large when fewer
> spams are happening.] Since there is no reason to have two separate groups
> dealing with the same subject matter--general/policy new administration
> postings and with such a large fraction of the postings in both groups
> dealing with net abuse I propose to delete news.admin.policy and create
> news.admin.net-abuse.misc.
This rationale will be gone when the spam crisis is replace by something
else. It makes sense to crosspost spam reports to the above groups.
The logical flaw in this entire analysis is that it tries to draw
conclusions by analyzing the postings in a group. A totally different
conclusion might result if one analyzed the readership of a group.
And this is what counts, since readers select which groups they subscribe
to and most readers do not post.
> Thus to provide this basic information I propose a moderated group:
> news.admin.net-abuse.announce, which is basically going to act as a
> "clearing house" to eliminate duplicate reports of abuse and spread
> information to the community regarding specific events as well as a source
> of other information. [Note that posts are in no way official or binding.]
Isn't the whole point of a moderated group "official" approval that
a post is "on-topic", in this case, that it is about "abuse"?
> the humanities.* hierarchy. Unfortunately there is no good place to
> discuss the development of such hierarchies. For example the us.*
There is no reason that this can't be discussed in news.admin.policy.
In fact, the need for new hierarchies is often a result of policy failure,
and that is what needs to be addressed. In some cases restructuring
rules of a current hierarchy would be a much better solution than
starting a new one.
> news.admin.net-abuse.announce Charter and Guidelines
>
> The purpose of this group is not to decide the guilt or innocence of
> any parties, but rather to simply report on the activity (much like
> the crime section found in many local newspapers). It must be kept
> clear that the net is a new legal area, but it is also one with a
> lot of unwritten rules. The moderators are in no way are attempting
> to act as judges, lawyers, or mediators.
Trial by the press is a well know phenomenon, these disclaimers will
not change that. This moderated group will have a monopoly on defining
abuse, so the situation will be even worse then with the mass media.
>
> 5. Right of Reply. If posts have been made in this group concerning an
> individual's alleged net abuse and the individual and/or site from
> which it originated have suffered negative consequences in the form
> of articles cancelled, accounts cancelled, or substantial negative
> email; then the individual and site each have the right to one (but
> no more than one) reply for the purpose of justification, rebuttal,
> or reports of actions taken to correct or cancel the alleged abuse.
If your account is cancelled you get to reply :-). An inadequate attempt
at due process.
> 7. Administravia
The continuing appearance of "new user" type errors in this proposal makes
it appear that respect for the reader is not at the top of the real agenda here
(or has the advise to spell check your posts been removed?) (The fact
that this error may have been made by the vote taker, instead of the
unnamed proposer, is not important to me, the entire current process
of group creation is flawed. The inability to ascribe authorship is
just one aspect of system which can not maintain accountability.)
> - Approval of postings will be made by a team of 5 moderators.
> - Change of moderators will be made by majority. Forcible removal
> of a moderator will be by consensus of remaining moderators.
> - Any rule changes will be made by majority of the moderators.
>
> Proposed moderators:
> David Barr <ba...@math.psu.edu>
> Joel Furr <jf...@acpub.duke.edu>
> Paul Phillips <pa...@CERF.NET>
> Abby Franquemont-Guillory <abb...@tezcat.com>
Well, I only count 4 here.
>
> - The group moderation software has not been set up yet; the
> submission address and contact address will be determined before the
> vote is over. Contact Dave Barr <ba...@math.psu.edu> for this
> information.
I keep getting the feeling that this proposal is not really ready for
a vote.
>
> news.admin.net-abuse.misc Charter
This seem to cover the same topic area as the moderated group. Is
anything else but this really needed?
> SUMMARY
>
> Because of the relative complexity of this proposal, an overview of the
> proposed reorganization is added here to describe the big picture.
>
> There are two existing newsgroups in the news.admin hierarchy which are not
> changed by this proposal:
> news.admin.misc (unmoderated)
> news.admin.technical (moderated)
>
> Three newsgroups are proposed to be created by this proposal:
> news.admin.hierarchies (unmoderated)
> news.admin.net-abuse.announce (moderated)
> news.admin.net-abuse.misc (unmoderated)
>
> Four newsgroups are proposed to be removed by this proposal:
> news.config (unmoderated)
> news.future (unmoderated)
> news.newsites (unmoderated)
> news.software.notes (unmoderated)
Yes, let's remove a set of groups with over 60,000 readers each, because
some unknown author doesn't feel they are "useful" anymore. When someone
commented he had never proposed removing a Big 7 group, the reply
was that it will be in my call for votes next week.
I guess the author of this proposal really knew what he was talking
about when he said the proposal was relatively complex. There is no
mention in the summary of the elimination of news.admin.policy. And
the ballot doesn't give a clue that you are eliminating it.
Although, given the scale of things, this is just a minor detail ;-)
HOW TO VOTE FOR FREEDOM (Just add your name below and delete as indicated)
>
> Erase everything above the top "-=-=-=-" line and erase everything
> below the bottom "-=-=-=-" line. Do not erase anything between these
> lines and do not change the group names. Basically, remove everything
> except the ballot - we have to save them all on disk.
>
> Give your name on the line that asks for it. For each group, place a YES or
> NO in the brackets next to it to vote for or against it. If you don't want
> to vote on a particular group, just leave the space blank. Don't worry
> about spacing of the columns or any quote characters (">") that your reply
> inserts.
>
> Then mail the ballot to: news-ad...@amdahl.com
> Just Replying to this message should work, but check the "To:" line.
>
> Quick voting checklist:
> 1) Fill in the ballot form shown below.
> 2) Delete the rest of the CFV from your reply.
> 3) Make sure your reply goes to news-ad...@amdahl.com
>
> ========== BEGINNING OF BALLOT: Delete everything before this line ==========
> news.admin reorganization Ballot <NA-REORG2-0001> (Don't remove this marker)
>
> Give your real name here:
>
> [Your Vote] Group
> -----------------------------------------------------------------------
> [ YES ] example.yes.vote
> [ NO ] example.no.vote
> [ ABSTAIN ] example.abstention
>
> [ NO ] news.admin.hierarchies
> [ NO ] news.admin.net-abuse.announce
> [ YES ] news.admin.net-abuse.misc
> [ NO ] REMOVE news.config (see proposal)
> [ NO ] REMOVE news.future (see proposal)
> [ NO ] REMOVE news.newsites (see proposal)
> [ NO ] REMOVE news.software.notes (see proposal)
> ============= END OF BALLOT: Delete everything after this line ==============
>
> Anything else may be rejected by the automatic vote counting program. The
> votetaker will respond to your received ballots with an automated acknowledge-
> ment by mail - if you do not receive one within several days, try again.
> It's your responsibility to make sure your vote is registered correctly.
>
> Only one vote per person, no more than one vote per account. Addresses and
> votes of all voters will be published in the final voting results list.
>
> Duplicate votes will be resolved in favor of the most recent valid vote.
> WARNING: In cases where voting fraud is determined to have occurred, it is
> standard operating procedure to delete ALL votes submitted by the violator.
> When in doubt, ask the vote-taker.
>
David S. Stodolsky, PhD, Euromath Center, University of Copenhagen
Universitetsparken 5, DK-2100 Copenhagen, Denmark. da...@euromath.dk
da...@arch.ping.dk. Tel.: +45 38 33 03 30. Fax: +45 38 33 88 80 (C)
[ Keep USENET free! - http://iems.jpl.nasa.gov/~dave/voteno.html ]
Peter da Silva
David Stodolsky <news-ad...@amdahl.com> wrote:
^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^?
>Reply-To: news-ad...@amdahl.com
Why did you do that, David?
>The process by which the proposal was prepared was not completely
>open and may even make this vote invalid. In the initial stage of
>organizing the proposal, there was a request that persons who could
>help with the moderation scheme should volunteer. I did so, but was
>told my help would not be needed.
Are you surprised?
>The discussion of the charter for the moderated group was carried
>out on a private mail list, not open to "outsiders".
Pot, kettle, black.
And we don't even have the opportunity to vote on *your* closed group of
net-abuse "judges" that you're trying to promote for the very same purpose
you're accusing *this* group of people of.
The fact that you weren't considered acceptable should be taken as a sign
that the last thing they want to become is Judges-L Part II. Perhaps you're
incapable of considering that other people might have motivations that differ
from your own.
>If someone wanted
>to suggest changes they had to request a copy. This seems to violate the
>rule that discussion should occur in news.groups.
Discussion *did* occur in news.groups. Copies were regularly posted to
news.groups. Suggestions made by people on news.groups were incorporated
in the drafts. Sounds frighteningly open to me.
>Several questions raised during discussion have not been answered.
>The most important question has simply not been addressed. Is it
>wise to create a high quality newsgroup for advertising Net abuse?
I can't answer that. That's why we're having a vote. The group may pass
or it may fail however, unlike *your* high quality mailing list it's
subject to the will of the net.
>Would mail lists be a better approach
>toward controlling abuse and reducing its visibility on the Net?
Not if you're interesting in doing things out in the open as you assert in
your initial statements.
>In a
>previous post, I argued that the amount of effort devoted to
>controlling Net abuse could be reduced by a factor of a thousand by
>such an approach.
Of course you're not... you're just interested in promoting Judges-L.
Bill Stewart-Cole
(Peter da Silva) wrote:
>In article <0105010...@arch.ping.dk>,
>David Stodolsky <news-ad...@amdahl.com> wrote:
> ^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^?
>>Reply-To: news-ad...@amdahl.com
>
>Why did you do that, David?
It looks like his software is broken. Maybe yours too.
That address was in the "Reply-To" of the CFV, and he chose to follow up
to the groups instead. His software (or failing that, he) should have
yanked tht line but instead kept it. Your software then used the Reply-to
as his address.
--
Of course I speak for Stewart-Cole Consulting.
Ain't nobody here but me
Tim Pierce
Bill Stewart-Cole <scco...@inlink.com> wrote:
>In article <D5I6s...@bonkers.taronga.com>, pe...@bonkers.taronga.com
>(Peter da Silva) wrote:
>
>>In article <0105010...@arch.ping.dk>,
>>David Stodolsky <news-ad...@amdahl.com> wrote:
>> ^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^?
>>>Reply-To: news-ad...@amdahl.com
>>
>>Why did you do that, David?
>
>It looks like his software is broken. Maybe yours too.
By design, trn uses the "Reply-To" address when constructing
an attribution line. I think David made a conscious
decision to set the Reply-To header to point to
news-ad...@amdahl.com -- I cannot imagine any software,
regardless of how broken it is, inheriting the parent
message's Reply-To header in a followup. Furthermore, I
think Peter knows why he did that, but instead I'll tell a
little story.
Bill and others here already know of one of my less popular
activities around here: I run a script from my KILL file
which seeks out followups that lack References headers, and
sends mail to the author nagging them about it. Well, it so
happens that the software David Stodolsky uses, uAccess, is
a brain-dead Macintosh client which doesn't generate
References headers in followups. Thus, earlier today, my
script cheerfully sent off a note to the Reply-To address of
David's post (i.e. news-ad...@amdahl.com), informing it
that it had just posted a followup that lacked a References
header, and please don't do that, and so on, and in case you
don't know which message I'm talking about, here's a copy,
quoted below.
In other words, news-ad...@amdahl.com received a
message from me which contained a valid ballot (quoted from
David's original post) voting NO on most of the new groups.
Thus, my ballot was summarily changed.
Fortunately, the UVV software sends the voter a receipt of
their vote, so I got a notification of my vote change
("change? what change??") and figured things out after
puzzling over them for a few minutes. In a few minutes I
will go and resubmit a correct vote, but I am still
disturbed over the potential for, well, net abuse. Someone
replying to David's message in earnest, and not noticing the
destination of their reply (either through carelessness or
criminally broken software), might easily submit a ballot by
accident, and thereby vote according to David Stodolsky's
persuasions.
Another news.groupie, upon hearing this story, opined that
the vote should be scrapped immediately. I'm not prepared
to go that far, but I am concerned about the validity of the
vote-in-progress, and I thought it should be brought up for
debate.
(In the meantime, I don't intend to reply to anything
Stodolsky posts, ever again.)
--
Unsolicited commercial electronic mail sent to this address will be
proofread at a cost of $200/hour (one half-hour minimum).
Dave Hayes
>da...@arch.ping.dk (David Stodolsky) writes:
>>The process by which the proposal was prepared was not completely
>>open and may even make this vote invalid. In the initial stage of
>>organizing the proposal, there was a request that persons who could
>>help with the moderation scheme should volunteer. I did so, but was
>>told my help would not be needed.
>Are you surprised?
I'm not. This is further evidence that this is a power grab by those
who are members of the "in" crowd. Just vote NO.
>>If someone wanted
>>to suggest changes they had to request a copy. This seems to violate the
>>rule that discussion should occur in news.groups.
>Discussion *did* occur in news.groups. Copies were regularly posted to
>news.groups. Suggestions made by people on news.groups were incorporated
>in the drafts. Sounds frighteningly open to me.
Yes, and discussion points were also ignored. I have a list of
issues, namely:
-A concrete definition of what "abuse" is
-Right of reply semantics, and how they don't work
-Moderators have absolute power over the charter, there are no
public controls
These issues were completely glossed over, and messages were left
unanswered. You may have made the motions for an open discussion,
however the proponents clearly weren't interested in listening...with
the one exception of David Barr, but that was over e-mail.
>>Several questions raised during discussion have not been answered.
>>The most important question has simply not been addressed. Is it
>>wise to create a high quality newsgroup for advertising Net abuse?
>I can't answer that. That's why we're having a vote. The group may pass
>or it may fail however, unlike *your* high quality mailing list it's
>subject to the will of the net.
Until it gets passed, then it's not.
>Of course you're not... you're just interested in promoting Judges-L.
Believe it or not, I'm against Judges-L. However, I find an unlikely
ally in David, because we both see through the charter to the attempt to
assume centralized and unbalanced control over posting habits. Both of
us find this distasteful.
--
Dave Hayes -- Institutional NETworks - Section 394 -- JPL/NASA - Pasadena CA
da...@elxr.jpl.nasa.gov da...@jato.jpl.nasa.gov ...usc!elroy!dxh
It's easier to fight for one's principles than to live up to them.
gent...@xmission.com
da...@arch.ping.dk (David Stodolsky) wrote:
}In article <news.admin-...@uunet.uu.net>
(news.announce.newgroups,news.groups,
}alt.config,alt.current-events.net-abuse,news.admin.misc,news.admin.policy,new
s.config,
}news.future,news.newsites,news.software.notes,us.config) it is stated:
}
}> FIRST CALL FOR VOTES (of 2)
}> NEWS.ADMIN REORGANIZATION
}>There is too much traffic in the area of net abuse for a large number of
}>people to keep up with it.
This is a nonsense statement. If the Falkner threads could be removed (And
the only reason to include them is because they themselves are becoming
net.abuse [and yes, I have been as guilty as any on this one]) then the group
is quite easy to keep up with. Even their presence is not important, as the
threads may be added to killfiles.
}
}Finally, the proposal attempts to sidestep the whole question of how
}they will define abuse. There is an appeal to "community standards",
}but the fact is that it will be the unaided judgement of the moderators,
}operating under unspecified rules (my specific question about this
}was never answered), unaccountable to anyone, that will make that decision.
This is very important. Consensus is the way these things have always been
defined, the only way they should be defined. If the majority, as evidenced
by the discussion, do not wish to define something as abuse, why should it be?
And if the overwhelming majority do wish to call something abuse, then it,
self-evidently, is abuse.
}
}The need for some recourse, or right to confront unjust accusations
}of abuse had been recognized, but the solution proposed is woefully
}inadequate. A moderated abuse group may be a way to promote abusive behavior
}on a scale which we have not yet seen. If someone is clever enough
}to fool one of the moderators, then it could be you
}that has your reputation destroyed and your account cancelled.
"And this is totally aside from the question of how well we can trust the
moderators. Even if the first generation is on the side of angels, the fourth
may not be. Getting into a flamewar with a moderator would become very
dangerous. Even disagreeing with them, effectively, wouldn't be safe.
}
}Send this one back to the drawing board folks, it will never fly,
}but it might crash and burn.
}Vote NO on all parts of this proposal, except news.admin.net-abuse.misc,
}it is the only thing really needed.
}
My vote is already in, in exactly that form. I don't feel this is a wise move
for us to be taking.
}> RATIONALE
}>
}> This is the rationale that was submitted by the proponent.
}
}Looks like only insiders get to know the name of the author(s).
}
}
}
}> In a recent check (late December) about 79% of the
}> postings to news.admin.policy were cross-posted to news.admin.misc, and
}> about 80% of the postings in both news.admin.misc and in
news.admin.policy
}> were concerned with net abuse. [These figures were from a period when
}> spamming was fairly heavy--so the figures will not be as large when
fewer
}> spams are happening.] Since there is no reason to have two separate
groups
}> dealing with the same subject matter--general/policy new administration
}> postings and with such a large fraction of the postings in both groups
}> dealing with net abuse I propose to delete news.admin.policy and create
}> news.admin.net-abuse.misc.
}
}This rationale will be gone when the spam crisis is replace by something
}else. It makes sense to crosspost spam reports to the above groups.
Yes, it does. Spam is the greatest threat facing the net at this point.
Since its frequency, and methods, are important to making decisions about it,
it is completely appropriate to post those reports there.
}
}The logical flaw in this entire analysis is that it tries to draw
}conclusions by analyzing the postings in a group. A totally different
}conclusion might result if one analyzed the readership of a group.
}And this is what counts, since readers select which groups they subscribe
}to and most readers do not post.
}
This analysis shows nothing more than it might be feasible to remove the group
news.admin.misc . And only might. Means nothing more than that.
}
}> Thus to provide this basic information I propose a moderated group:
}> news.admin.net-abuse.announce, which is basically going to act as a
}> "clearing house" to eliminate duplicate reports of abuse and spread
}> information to the community regarding specific events as well as a
source
}> of other information. [Note that posts are in no way official or
binding.]
}
Totally insufficient cause. Although multiple reports do take place, partly
due to lag and partly due to reports by people who do not regularly read
a.c-e.n-a, this information can itself be useful, as in the case of the 1 GIG
spam, when it was found to be appearing on regional groups. This brought
forward an important fact, that CancelMoose and the Cancelhunds cannot issue
cancels for all of these.
And if posts "are in no way official or binding", why are we bothering? The
only purpose in such a disclaimer is to protect moderators from being
responsible for their mistakes.
}
}> the humanities.* hierarchy. Unfortunately there is no good place to
}> discuss the development of such hierarchies. For example the us.*
}
}There is no reason that this can't be discussed in news.admin.policy.
}In fact, the need for new hierarchies is often a result of policy failure,
}and that is what needs to be addressed. In some cases restructuring
}rules of a current hierarchy would be a much better solution than
}starting a new one.
}
Completely true.
}
}> news.admin.net-abuse.announce Charter and Guidelines
}>
}> The purpose of this group is not to decide the guilt or innocence of
}> any parties, but rather to simply report on the activity (much like
}> the crime section found in many local newspapers). It must be kept
}> clear that the net is a new legal area, but it is also one with a
}> lot of unwritten rules. The moderators are in no way are attempting
}> to act as judges, lawyers, or mediators.
}
}Trial by the press is a well know phenomenon, these disclaimers will
}not change that. This moderated group will have a monopoly on defining
}abuse, so the situation will be even worse then with the mass media.
}
They will not only have such a monopoly, but they will have the capacity to
silence anyone who does not agree. One email from a "Moderator of net.abuse"
to your sysadmin, and you would probably find yourself with a cancelled
account.
"Not determine the guilt or innocence"? Please. Your name shows up in an
official article charging net.abuse, and you're tried, convicted, and
sentenced. They aren't acting as judges because they'll skip all that and get
straight to the hanging. And you will have no recourse, except to hop
accounts faster than they can get them cancelled.
}
}>
}> 5. Right of Reply. If posts have been made in this group concerning an
}> individual's alleged net abuse and the individual and/or site from
}> which it originated have suffered negative consequences in the form
}> of articles cancelled, accounts cancelled, or substantial negative
}> email; then the individual and site each have the right to one (but
}> no more than one) reply for the purpose of justification, rebuttal,
}> or reports of actions taken to correct or cancel the alleged abuse.
}
}If your account is cancelled you get to reply :-). An inadequate attempt
}at due process.
}
Totally inadequate. I happen to have several accounts. Many do, but many do
not. And you get *one* reply. They could simply say "Thank you for giving
your side of the story. Having reviewed your case, we find no grounds for
reversal. Thank you, and have a nice net.less day."
}
}> 7. Administravia
}
}The continuing appearance of "new user" type errors in this proposal makes
}it appear that respect for the reader is not at the top of the real agenda
here
}(or has the advise to spell check your posts been removed?) (The fact
}that this error may have been made by the vote taker, instead of the
}unnamed proposer, is not important to me, the entire current process
}of group creation is flawed. The inability to ascribe authorship is
}just one aspect of system which can not maintain accountability.)
}
Just who does write these? Is this information deliberately withheld?
}
}> - Approval of postings will be made by a team of 5 moderators.
}> - Change of moderators will be made by majority. Forcible removal
}> of a moderator will be by consensus of remaining moderators.
}> - Any rule changes will be made by majority of the moderators.
}>
}> Proposed moderators:
}> David Barr <ba...@math.psu.edu>
}> Joel Furr <jf...@acpub.duke.edu>
}> Paul Phillips <pa...@CERF.NET>
}> Abby Franquemont-Guillory <abb...@tezcat.com>
}
}Well, I only count 4 here.
}
Pentium math. I have no real problem with any of these named, only with the
rules they are giving themselves.
"Change of moderators will be made by majority." Majority of *who*? Usenet?
Or the moderators? And how exactly should such a change be pursued?
"Forcible removal of moderators will be by consensus of remaining moderators."
*What* does consensus mean in this context. My dictionary tells me that it
means majority. Usually that is taken to mean a marked majority. But that
isn't spelled out here.
"Any rule changes will be made by the majority of the moderators."
WHAT?! Not only do the rules they start under suck, but they can rewrite them
any time they want? Without discussion, without even letting us know that a
change has been made? NO NO NO NO NO NO NO NO!!!!!!
In a manner so easy that we wouldn't even see it coming, we could have a
self-perpetuating oligarchy, capable of pulling anyones access, capable of
deciding what net.abuse is, and redefining it at whim. What if they decided
that criticizing the actions of the moderators was net.abuse?
}>
}> - The group moderation software has not been set up yet; the
}> submission address and contact address will be determined before
the
}> vote is over. Contact Dave Barr <ba...@math.psu.edu> for this
}> information.
}
}I keep getting the feeling that this proposal is not really ready for
}a vote.
}
I get the feeling that someone is pulling a fast one.
}
}>
}> news.admin.net-abuse.misc Charter
}
}This seem to cover the same topic area as the moderated group. Is
}anything else but this really needed?
}
Hell no! Steve, Bob, we don't get along, but I hardly think you can go along
with this. And everyone that is busy playing with Falkner, take a real look
at this and ask yourselves if you like the idea of a small group having this
kind of power. Usenet *may* need a little more organization, but it *doesn't*
need a dictatorial Big Brother.
Regards,
The Gentleman
"I may be gibbering, but I don't see myself as wrong"
--Mike Falkner
Scott Southwick
Dave Hayes <da...@elxr.jpl.nasa.gov> wrote:
>
>Believe it or not, I'm against Judges-L. However, I find an unlikely
>ally in David, because we both see through the charter to the attempt to
>assume centralized and unbalanced control over posting habits. Both of
>us find this distasteful.
I hereby nominate Dave Hayes as a moderator. That's how worried I am
about who's in "control"--i.e., not at all... (Although I have to
admit I'd puke if Stodolsky got involved... Whoever locked him out of
discussion [his perception] did us all a great service...)
n.a.n-a.mod will just be a condensed version of the unmoderated group;
if something doesn't make it in there, well, boo-hoo. It's not like
the cabal will be ripping out somebody's larynx ("I Know It's a Cabal
Because Joel Furr's Involved." [tm])
Seriously: is it too late to get Dave Hayes on board? Embrace the
opposition, what little there is...
yrs,
Scotty
[whoa: a Followup-to: line!]
---
alt.current-events.net-abuse FAQ
http://www-sc.ucssc.indiana.edu/~scotty/acena.html
Paul Phillips
In article <3k8lob$9ss...@slc23.xmission.com> gent...@xmission.com writes:
>And if posts "are in no way official or binding", why are we bothering? The
>only purpose in such a disclaimer is to protect moderators from being
>responsible for their mistakes.
Sorry, that's not so. The disclaimer is presented for exactly the reasons
stated in the disclaimer. The moderators are responsible for their own
mistakes, but keep in mind that "mistake" is mostly in the eye of the
beholder.
>They will not only have such a monopoly, but they will have the capacity to
>silence anyone who does not agree. One email from a "Moderator of net.abuse"
>to your sysadmin, and you would probably find yourself with a cancelled
>account.
I am continually amazed that the people so worried about dictatorship
don't believe sysadmins are smart enough or self-willed enough to make
up their own minds. That sounds awfully familiar...
>In a manner so easy that we wouldn't even see it coming, we could have a
>self-perpetuating oligarchy, capable of pulling anyones access, capable of
>deciding what net.abuse is, and redefining it at whim. What if they decided
>that criticizing the actions of the moderators was net.abuse?
I guess we would cancel all your posts.
That's a joke.
Really.
You are again giving people no credit for having grey matter. If
moderators of this group become "capable of pulling anyone's access",
then there is more wrong with the human race than we can fix.
I will not get involved in Yet Another Newsgroup Creation Point By Point
Endless Debate. No time, sorry. I trust people to make up their own minds.
-PSP
--
"Kook of the month implies no evaluation of mental status."
-- Andrew Beckwith
alt.usenet.kooks
Ian Kluft
you asked.
In news.groups you write:
>}> RATIONALE
>}>
>}> This is the rationale that was submitted by the proponent.
>}
>}Looks like only insiders get to know the name of the author(s).
The official CFV listed the names of the votetaker and proponent at the top.
However, in the article you replied to, the person had clipped those out.
FYI, CFVs are constructed by votetakers from a questionnaire that newsgroup
proponents fill out. There's no secret to this. You can see the
questionnaire for yourself at
http://www.amdahl.com/ext/uvv/
Maybe that sheds a little more light on what was meant by "This is the
rationale that was submitted by the proponent." It was the text from his
questionnaire.
>}> - Approval of postings will be made by a team of 5 moderators.
>}> - Change of moderators will be made by majority. Forcible removal
>}> of a moderator will be by consensus of remaining moderators.
>}> - Any rule changes will be made by majority of the moderators.
>}>
>}> Proposed moderators:
>}> David Barr <ba...@math.psu.edu>
>}> Joel Furr <jf...@acpub.duke.edu>
>}> Paul Phillips <pa...@CERF.NET>
>}> Abby Franquemont-Guillory <abb...@tezcat.com>
>}
>}Well, I only count 4 here.
>}
>Pentium math. I have no real problem with any of these named, only with the
>rules they are giving themselves.
Actually, I missed that "5" when one of the moderators asked to have himself
removed from the list at an almost-too-late last moment.
Now that it's been pointed out, that typo will be fixed in the 2nd CFV.
Ian Kluft
NEWS.ADMIN REORGANIZATION
RATIONALE
CHARTERS
news.admin.hierarchies Charter
news.admin.net-abuse.announce Charter and Guidelines
7. Administravia
- Approval of postings will be made by a team of 4 moderators.
news.admin.net-abuse.misc Charter
SUMMARY
Two newsgroups are proposed to be created by this proposal:
news.admin.hierarchies (unmoderated)
news.admin.net-abuse.announce (moderated)
One newsgroup is proposed to be renamed
rename news.admin.policy as news.admin.net-abuse.misc (both unmoderated)
[Note about correction: the 1st CFV inadvertently omitted mention of the
removal of news.admin.policy in this summary. Voters have been notified.]
Four newsgroups are proposed to be removed by this proposal:
news.config (unmoderated)
news.future (unmoderated)
news.newsites (unmoderated)
news.software.notes (unmoderated)
The removals, if approved by the vote, will be implemented by renaming the
groups to the already-existing news.admin.misc.
HOW TO VOTE
Erase everything above the top "-=-=-=-" line and erase everything
below the bottom "-=-=-=-" line. Do not erase anything between these
lines and do not change the group names. Basically, remove everything
except the ballot - we have to save them all on disk.
Give your name on the line that asks for it. For each group, place a YES or
NO in the brackets next to it to vote for or against it. If you don't want
to vote on a particular group, just leave the space blank. Don't worry
about spacing of the columns or any quote characters (">") that your reply
inserts.
Then mail the ballot to: news-ad...@amdahl.com
Just Replying to this message should work, but check the "To:" line.
Quick voting checklist:
1) Fill in the ballot form shown below.
2) Delete the rest of the CFV from your reply.
3) Make sure your reply goes to news-ad...@amdahl.com
========== BEGINNING OF BALLOT: Delete everything before this line ==========
news.admin reorganization Ballot <NA-REORG2-0002> (Don't remove this marker)
Give your real name here:
[Your Vote] Group
-----------------------------------------------------------------------
[ YES ] example.yes.vote
[ NO ] example.no.vote
[ ABSTAIN ] example.abstention
[ ] news.admin.hierarchies
[ ] news.admin.net-abuse.announce
[ ] news.admin.net-abuse.misc (replaces news.admin.policy)
[ ] REMOVE news.config (see proposal)
[ ] REMOVE news.future (see proposal)
[ ] REMOVE news.newsites (see proposal)
[ ] REMOVE news.software.notes (see proposal)
============= END OF BALLOT: Delete everything after this line ==============
Anything else may be rejected by the automatic vote counting program. The
votetaker will respond to your received ballots with an automated acknowledge-
ment by mail - if you do not receive one within several days, try again.
It's your responsibility to make sure your vote is registered correctly.
Only one vote per person, no more than one vote per account. Addresses and
votes of all voters will be published in the final voting results list.
Duplicate votes will be resolved in favor of the most recent valid vote.
WARNING: In cases where voting fraud is determined to have occurred, it is
standard operating procedure to delete ALL votes submitted by the violator.
When in doubt, ask the vote-taker.
2nd news.admin reorganization Bounce List - No need to revote
------------------------------------------------------------------------------
MALL...@URIACC.URI.EDU Michael Allen
Ian Kluft
NEWS.ADMIN REORGANIZATION
Voting for the news.admin reorganization vote ended 23:59:59 GMT,
3 April 1995. This vote was conducted by a neutral third party. For
questions about voting procedures only contact Ian Kluft (ikl...@amdahl.com).
For questions about the newsgroups contact Jonathan Grobe
<gr...@ins.infonet.net>.
There were 587 valid votes submitted during the voting period. Each proposed
newsgroup, in order to pass, must have at least 2/3 YES votes and at least
100 more YES than NO votes. The results are as follows:
2nd news.admin reorganization results - 587 valid votes
Yes No : 2/3? >100? : Pass? : Group
---- ---- : ---- ----- : ----- : -------------------------------------------
401 89 : Yes Yes : Yes : news.admin.hierarchies
391 182 : Yes Yes : Yes : news.admin.net-abuse.announce
442 91 : Yes Yes : Yes : news.admin.net-abuse.misc
416 67 : Yes Yes : Yes : REMOVE news.config
367 109 : Yes Yes : Yes : REMOVE news.future
414 74 : Yes Yes : Yes : REMOVE news.newsites
428 53 : Yes Yes : Yes : REMOVE news.software.notes
19 invalid votes
All parts of the proposal passed.
NOTE: the topic of this vote was a controversial subject. See the voting
analysis below for more information.
There is a five day discussion period after these results are posted. If no
serious and significant allegations of voting irregularities are raised, the
moderator of news.announce.newgroups will create the newsgroups shortly
thereafter.
The following newsgroups will be removed on [!!! n.a.n moderator fills this in !
!!]:
news.admin.policy (replaced by news.admin.net-abuse.misc)
news.config (replaced by news.admin.misc)
news.future (replaced by news.admin.misc)
news.newsites (replaced by news.admin.misc)
news.software.notes (replaced by news.admin.misc)
The remainder of the results contains
Newsgroups Lines
Charters
Final Voting Acknowledgements
Voting Analysis
NEWSGROUPS LINES
news.admin.hierarchies Network news hierarchies.
news.admin.net-abuse.announce Information regarding net abuse (Moderated).
news.admin.net-abuse.misc Net abuse including spamming.
CHARTERS
news.admin.hierarchies Charter
news.admin.net-abuse.announce Charter and Guidelines
news.admin.net-abuse.misc Charter
FINAL VOTING ACKNOWLEDGEMENTS
2nd news.admin reorganization Final Vote Ack
REMOVE news.software.notes ---------+
REMOVE news.newsites --------+|
REMOVE news.future -------+||
REMOVE news.config ------+|||
news.admin.net-abuse.misc -----+||||
news.admin.net-abuse.announce ----+|||||
news.admin.hierarchies ---+||||||
|||||||
1001...@compuserve.com Duncan Lyall -N-----
7637...@compuserve.com Roy Murphy YYYYNNN
A.H....@bath.ac.uk Andrew Henry YYYYYYY
aa...@cleveland.Freenet.Edu Paul S. Wolf YYYYYYY
aa...@netcom.com Aahz YYYYYYY
aar...@best.com Aaron Priven Y--YYY-
ab...@fulton.seas.virginia.edu Arthur B. Byrne YYYYYYY
abos...@netcom.com Alan L. Bostick YYYYYYY
ad...@yggdrasil.com Adam J. Richter -N-----
a...@lovett.com Ade Lovett YYYYYYY
af...@divsun.unige.ch Afzal Ballim YYYYYYY
ag...@freenet.carleton.ca Colin Leech YYYYYYY
a...@arthur.pfalz.de Andy Jaeger YYYYYYY
al...@yfn.ysu.edu Tina M. Wood YYYYYYY
a...@debra.dgbt.doc.ca Al Black YYYYYYY
al...@papaioea.manawatu.planet.co.nz Alan Brown YYYYYYY
al...@ocf.Berkeley.EDU Alan Coopersmith YYYYYYY
ala...@cs.man.ac.uk Alan R Williams NNYYYYY
ala...@harlech.demon.co.uk Iain Bowen YNYYNYY
alb...@ctsd2.jsc.nasa.gov Seth Alberts YNYYYYY
alde...@netcom.com Richard M. Alderson III YNYYYYY
al...@monolith.mit.edu Melissa Algeo YYYYNNY
als...@woodward-52.rh.uchicago.edu A. Spehr YNYYNYY
amcm...@osf1.gmu.edu Andrew McMichael NNNNYNY
and...@earlham.edu Andrew Hagen YYYYYYY
an...@harlequin.com Andy Latto YYYYNYY
Andyt...@aol.com Andy Jones YYYYYYY
an...@alcor.concordia.ca Anne Bennett -YYY-YY
Ann_...@qmail2.aero.org Ann Mazuk YYYYYYY
a...@dcs.ed.ac.uk Andrew Snodgrass YYYYYYY
arc...@frmug.fr.net Vincent Archer -------
ari...@bonkers.taronga.com Stephanie da Silva -----YY
arro...@blaze.cs.jhu.edu Ken Arromdee YNNYYYY
av...@yfn.ysu.edu ANTHONY F. BUDAK -N-----
a...@stade.co.uk Adrian Wontroba YYYYYYY
a...@dce.vic.gov.au Allister Coots YYYYYYY
bai...@hagar.ph.utexas.edu Ed Bailey YYYYYYY
bal...@nexus.yorku.ca Balaji YYNYYYY
ba...@cinnamon.com Andy Beals YNY----
ba...@math.psu.edu Dave Barr YYYYYYY
bau...@crypt.erie.ge.com Ron Bauerle YYYYYYY
b...@wetware.com Bill Coderre YNYNNYN
bcol...@mindspring.com Ben Coleman YYYYYYY
beck...@unvax.union.edu Alexander C. Beckers YYYYYYY
be...@sco.COM Bela Lubkin NNNNNNN
ben...@maths.lth.se Bengt Larsson -YYYNYY
ben...@rpi.edu Craig L. Bennett -N-----
be...@nbnet.nb.ca Ben Watson YYYYYYY
bi...@oseda.missouri.edu Bill Canning YNYYYYY
b...@herbison.com B.J. Herbison YYNY-Y-
blo...@cts.com Barry Logan NNN----
b...@gryphon.demon.co.uk Brian Blackmore YYYYYYY
bon...@esiee.fr Frank Bonnet -N-----
booda@lynx Martin H. Booda NNNYYYY
bo...@mda.ca Michael Borek YYYYYYY
boui...@cs.uni-sb.de Peter G. Bouillon NYYYYY-
b...@mace.cc.purdue.edu david w. dockter NNNNNNN
br...@bnr.ca Brand Hilton -N-----
bru...@teleport.com Bruce Baugh YYYYYYY
br...@Novell.COM Bryan Cardoza NNNYYYY
br...@moore.DIALix.oz.au Bryce Moore (br...@moore.dialix.oz.au) NNNNNNN
BSCHLE...@NSSDCA.GSFC.NASA.GOV Barry Schlesinger -YYYYYY
BUBB...@delphi.com Michael W. Gillman NNNNNNN
bushore%toon...@icarus.ssd.loral.com bus...@toontown.ssd.loral.co NNNNNNN
by...@cleveland.Freenet.Edu D. L. Mosher NNNYYYY
C...@vm.urz.Uni-Heidelberg.de Alexander Eichener YYYYYY-
c...@va.pubnix.com C. Stanton YYYYYYY
cbs...@phoenix.Princeton.EDU Chris Stone NNNYYYY
cci...@nyx10.cs.du.edu Charles M. Cilek YYYYYYY
ce...@eng.cam.ac.uk C.E.Blackmun YYYYYYY
char...@net.bio.net Charleen Bunjiovianna YNY----
c...@clw.cs.man.ac.uk Charles Lindsey NYYYYYY
ch...@cosmic.dinoco.de Christian Much YNNYYYY
ch...@eris.hsc.colorado.edu Chris Yoder YYYYYYY
ch...@punknet.callamer.com Christopher J. Ambler YYYYNYY
ch...@wg.estec.esa.nl Chris Rouch NYYYYYY
Chris_...@hmc.edu Chris Marble YYYYYYY
c...@brushtail.hna.com.au Chris Funky-Mo-Dee Baird Y--YYYY
c...@dme.nt.gov.au Chris Wharton YYYYYYY
c...@loiosh.kei.com Christopher Davis YYYYYYY
c...@hawkwind.utcs.toronto.edu Chris Siebenmann YYYYYYY
cle...@westminster.ac.uk Ross Clement -N-----
cle...@bnr.ca chris (c.r.) lewis YYYYYYY
cl...@cs.scarolina.edu Ernest Cline -YYY-Y-
cl...@lunch.engr.sgi.com Diane Barlow Close YYYYYYY
clst...@mailbox.syr.edu Chris Stamper NNNYYYY
c...@netcom.com Rev. Chris Korda -N-----
cr...@cus.cam.ac.uk Colin Bell YY----Y
cro...@cyber1.servtech.com Chris Nasipak NNYNNNN
cr...@coos.dartmouth.edu Preston Crow -YYYYYY
cs...@electro.com Carlo Sgro YYYYYYY
csu...@netmanage.com Christopher Suley YNY----
cu...@csv.warwick.ac.uk Ian Dickinson YYNYNY-
cve...@u.washington.edu Craig Verver YYYYYYY
d9be...@dtek.chalmers.se Bertil K. Jonell YYYYYYY
dan...@aurora.cis.upenn.edu Johanna Draper NNNYYYY
da...@staff.cs.su.oz.au Danny Yee YYYYNYY
Dan_M...@habitat.org Dan MacNeil] YYYYYYY
da...@druid.planix.com D'Arcy J.M. Cain YNYYYYY
Darrell_...@mindlink.net Darrell Greenwood YYYYYYY
da...@elxr.jpl.nasa.gov Dave Hayes YNNNNNY
da...@tso4a.can.cdc.com Dave Weil YYYYYYY
da...@teleport.com David F. Reynolds YYYYYYY
david....@freddy.supernet.ab.ca David MacLean -N-----
da...@arch.ping.dk David Stodolsky NNNNNNN
da...@infopro.com David Fiedler -N-----
Da...@masthead.demon.co.uk David Brazendale YYYYYYY
davi...@tmr.com Bill Davidsen NNNNNNN
d...@panacea.phys.utk.edu David DeLaney YYYYNYY
d...@panix.com David W. Crawford NYYNYYY
dc...@uci.edu Derek Chee YNYYYYY
dco...@MIT.EDU NNNNNNN
d...@anubis.network.com David Dyer-Bennet YYNYNYY
d...@clipper.ssb.com Derek Lichter YNYYYYY
d...@sws5.CTD.ORNL.GOV Dave Sill YYYYYYY
deepa...@macsch.com Deepak Brar YNYYYYY
dei...@io.org Leslie G. Warstler NNY----
d...@unlinfo.unl.edu Dave Furstenau YYYYYYY
df...@belvedere.sbay.org David E. Fox NYYYYYY
dg...@city.ac.uk William Li NNNNNNY
dhar...@mcs.com Dan Hartung YYYYYYY
dho...@valinor.mythical.com Danny Holmes NNNNNNN
dho...@worldlinx.com David Howard YYYYYYY
d...@dirku.demon.co.uk Dirk-Jan Koopman YYYYYYY
dmi...@sclara.qms.com Dmitriy N. Vasilev -YY--N-
dms...@hertz.njit.edu David Shaw YYYNYYY
dms...@mit.edu Daniel Silevitch YYYYYYY
dno...@PrimeNet.Com David J. Noble -N-----
dob...@info.usuhs.mil Michael Dobson YNNYNYY
don...@omphalos.skepsis.com Bob Donahue YYYYYYY
don...@bnr.ca Marc Donovan -YYYYYY
do...@texel.com Douglas Parvin YYYYYYY
DREI...@OREGON.UOREGON.EDU Daniel R. Reitman YYYYYYY
drseuss%gorn.i...@do-oh.iuma.com David Bedno YNYYYYY
ds...@armltd.co.uk David Seal -------
ds...@packrat.aml.arizona.edu David Sewell YYYYYYY
dum...@cnct.com Joseph Pigott -NN----
dun...@spd.eee.strath.ac.uk Duncan THOMSON -N-----
dva...@magnus.acs.ohio-state.edu Dave Van Domelen YYYYYYY
dwp...@rbdc.rbdc.com David W. Payne YYYYYYY
e0...@sc.bme.hu David Hayden -N-----
eas...@cfi.waseda.ac.jp Richard EASTHER YYYYYYY
ebe...@IntNet.net Edward Beatty NNNNNNN
eck...@netcom.com Steven R Eckert -N-----
ec...@darwin.clas.virginia.edu EWAN MCNAY NNNNNNN
e...@titipu.resun.com Edward Reid YYN-N--
edm...@cs.ubc.ca Brian Edmonds YYYY-YY
e...@lever.com Edward Elhauge YN-----
ele...@yatcom.com Edward J. Branley YYYYYYY
e...@rmc1.crocker.com Michael Feuell YYYYYYY
el...@dg-rtp.dg.com Topher Eliot YYYYYYY
el...@midway.uchicago.edu Ellen Keyne Seebacher YYYYYYY
em...@Kanpai.Stanford.EDU Emma Pease -YYYYYY
er...@acs.brockport.edu erik seielstad YYYYNYY
es...@snowhite.eeap.cwru.edu Robert A. Essig YYYYYYY
ev...@telly.telly.org Evan Leibovitch YYYYYYY
e...@panix.com Emery Lapinski YYYYYYY
e...@uiah.fi Samu Mielonen YYYYYYY
eyh...@garnet.berkeley.edu Eugene Hung YYYYYYY
fay...@halcyon.com Jay L. Faylore -N-----
fc...@db.toronto.edu Frank Ch. Eigler YNYY-YY
fek...@bcuxs2.bc.edu Zoli Fekete YYYYYYY
fi...@moore.DIALix.oz.au Fiona Coombes NNNNNNN
fo...@track.iatge.de Thomas Foks YYYYYYY
Fort...@brown.edu Daniel "Ford" Sohl NYYYYYY
fp...@rummelplatz.uni-mannheim.de Markus Kolbeck YYYYNYY
f...@xymph.iaf.nl Frans P. de Vries -YYYYYY
fr...@jplpio.jpl.nasa.gov Frank O'Donnell -NY----
frie...@bnr.ca Barry L. Friedman YNNYNYY
FR...@Gems.VCU.EDU John E. Fritz YNNYYYY
ftlo...@big-twist.CS.UNLV.EDU Frank Lofaro NNNNNNN
fu...@gl.umbc.edu Francis Uy YYYYYYY
g...@cam.ov.com Gary A. Feldman NNYYYYY
gala...@stack.urc.tue.nl Arnoud "Galactus" Engelfriet YYYYYYY
gal...@universe.digex.net Dr. Lloyd B. Eldred YNY--Y-
gal...@chtm.eece.unm.edu Denis McKeon YYYYYYY
gandp!di...@uunet.uu.net Richard Gill YYYYYYY
Garet...@cl.cam.ac.uk Gareth Rees YYYYNYY
gar...@BAST.CIMDS.RI.CMU.EDU Susan Garvin YYYYYYY
ga...@asiapac.DIALix.oz.au Gary Dean NNNNNNN
gau...@escape.com Gautam Guliani YYYYYYY
gent...@xmission.com [name withheld at voter's request] YYYYYYY
geo...@netcom.com geoff george (geo...@netcom.com) -N-----
geo...@jplopto.jpl.nasa.gov George Edgar -NN----
gi...@dev.cdx.mot.com Bruce Giese YYYYYYY
g...@gba.oz.au Greg Black YYYYYYY
glhuc...@ucdavis.edu Gary Huckabay YYYYYYY
gno...@brahman.nullnet.fi Jani Poijärvi YYYYYYY
godf...@coventry.ac.uk Bill Godfrey YY-YNYY
goe...@jeeves.esam.nwu.edu chris goedde YYYYYYY
gol...@physics.harvard.edu Mitchell Golden YYYYYYY
gop...@SCFE.CHINALAKE.NAVY.MIL David S. Goppelt YYYYYYY
grab...@MATH.HARVARD.EDU David Grabiner YYYYYYY
gre...@netaxs.com Michael Handler YYYYYYY
gr...@ee.tulane.edu Misti D. Jordan -YY-YYY
gr...@INS.INFONET.NET Jonathan Grobe YYYYYYY
gro...@alpha.acast.nova.edu John M. Grohol YYYYYYY
gr...@netcom.com Kiran Wagle YYYNNNN
gt0...@prism.gatech.edu Brennan T. Price YYYNNYY
guer...@IRO.UMontreal.CA Paul Guertin YYYYYYY
gu...@netg.se Gugge Törnquist YYYYYYY
gu...@inet.uni-c.dk Jesper Angelo ---YYNY
g...@n3gb.umd.edu George Baltz YYYYNYY
g...@ionet.net Steven Laner g...@ionet.net NNNNNNY
hac...@fc.net Andrew Hackard -YY----
hal...@caip.rutgers.edu Hala'sz Sa'ndor (in Western Europe "Sandor -NY----
hald...@sas.upenn.edu Gene N. Haldeman NNNNNNN
hami...@gl.umbc.edu Diana Hamilton YYYYYYY
ha...@aie.nl Hans Kinwel YYYYYYY
ha...@worldweb.net Pete 'Happy' Thomas YYNYYYY
harn...@u.washington.edu Halldor Arnason -N-----
har...@driscoll.chi.il.us Harold A. Driscoll YYYYYYY
HAR...@INDYVAX.IUPUI.EDU James Harvey YYYYYYY
hay...@ultryx.com Jim Hayter YYYYYYY
heil...@math.berkeley.edu Stephan Heilmayr YYYNNNN
hei...@chemie.fu-berlin.de Vera Heinau YYYYYYY
her...@cats.ucsc.edu William Robert Ward YYYYYYY
hh...@stardot.com Hui-Hui Hu -NYNYNY
hit...@PrimeNet.Com Barett McGavock YYYYYYY
hja...@ucdavis.edu Henry Alme YNYYYYY
hne...@ncsa.uiuc.edu Henry Neeman Y-YYYYY
ho...@AIC.NRL.Navy.Mil Dan Hoey NYYNNNN
hol...@telchar.jpl.nasa.gov Ron Holland -N-----
ho...@zeus.usq.edu.au Ronald Thomas House NNNNNNN
hr...@rocza.kei.com Helen Trillian Rose YYYYYYY
hru...@stat.purdue.edu Herman Rubin NYYNNYY
h...@hamster.sauerland.de Hartmut W. Malzahn YYY-YYY
il...@niwot.scd.ucar.EDU Ilana Stern -YY-YY-
iri...@infersys.com Josh Smith YYYYYYY
ir...@stat.mps.ohio-state.edu Mark E. Irwin YYYYYYY
iw...@cus.cam.ac.uk Ian Jackson -YNY-YY
J.J.de...@TWI.TUDelft.NL Hans de Graaff YYYYYYY
J.Ye...@sussex.ac.uk John Yeates YYYYYYY
ja...@netcom.com Keith A. Cochran YYYYYYY
j...@sdc.cs.boeing.com James B. Glidewell YYY----
j...@tis.inel.gov Joseph C. Kenny -N-----
jco...@crl.com James L. Coffey jco...@crl.com NNNNNNN
j...@mti.mti.sgi.com J.C. Webber III NYN----
jdal...@news.doas.state.ga.us James D. Almand YNNYYYY
jdf...@cais.cais.com J.D. Falk YYYYYY-
jdic...@vtol.jpl.nasa.gov Jeff S. Dickson -NN----
jebg...@uxa.cso.uiuc.edu Johann Beda YYYYYYY
j...@mcs.com Jamie Eimermann YYYYYYY
Jeffery....@jpl.nasa.gov Marc Jordan YNNYYYY
je...@is.ge.com Jeffrey A. Pleimling YYYYYYY
je...@shadow.net Jeffrey K. Seidel NNNNNNN
je...@gateway.bsis.com Jeff Waller -N-----
je...@panix.com Jens Johansson -N-----
jf...@acpub.duke.edu Joel Keith Furr NYYYYYY
j...@proteon.com John Woods YYYYYYY
jg2...@coewl.cen.uiuc.edu John R. Grout YYYYYYY
jge...@nbi.com Joe George NNNYYYY
j...@nbn.com John Harkin YYYYYYY
jhal...@bud.peinet.pe.ca Judy Haldemann YYYYYYY
jhen...@stdismas.wimsey.com John Henders YYYYNYY
j...@shore.net jAke Peters <j...@shore.net> NNNNNNN
j...@cam.ov.com Jonathan Kamens YYYYYYY
ji...@eecs.umich.edu Jim Jewett YYYY-Y-
jkw...@sbu.edu Joseph Kwiatkowski YYYYYYY
jmay...@admin5.hsc.uth.tmc.edu Jay Maynard YYYYYYY
jm...@cus.cam.ac.uk John Line YYYY-YY
jo...@ludd.luth.se Joar Nilsson YNY----
j...@netaxs.com Joseph L. Casadonte Jr. -Y-----
j...@bftsi0.gate.net Joseph L. Foster NNNNNNN
j...@decoy.uoregon.edu Joe St Sauver YNYNYYY
joe...@li.net joseph j. mele YNYNNN-
joe...@csgrad.cs.vt.edu Joe Shaw YYYYYYY
joha...@titan.westfalen.de Johannes Stille YYYYYYY
John...@cscoe.ac.com John Mayo YNYNYYY
jo...@jlc.net John Leslie NNYNNNN
jo...@mlb.semi.harris.com John Blasik YNYYYNY
joh...@umd.umich.edu Johnie Ingram YNYYNNN
John_Br...@ccmail.lbl.gov John Broughton YYYYYYY
jon...@io.org Trevor Tymchuk YYYYYYY
jo...@mcs.com Jorn Barger ----N--
jo...@stack.urc.tue.nl Joris Zwart YYYYYYY
j...@hammer.msfc.nasa.gov J. Porter Clark YYYYYYY
jpr...@ultranet.com Joe Provo YYYYYNY
jr...@Craycos.COM Jim Davies -YY---Y
jrd...@netcom.com John Davis jrd...@netcom.com YNYYYYY
js...@discus.ise.vt.edu Joseph Cochran -N-----
jser...@expert.cc.purdue.edu Jonathan S. Sergent NYYYYYY
jtb...@cs1.presby.edu Jon Bell YYYYYYY
jue...@gator.teuto.de Juergen Stiekel YYYYNYN
jw...@rsg1.er.usgs.gov Janet Walz -YYYYYY
jwi...@reed.edu Joseph Bear Wilner <jwi...@reed.edu> -N-----
ka...@physik.uni-kl.de Daniel A. Kabs YYNYYYY
k...@khms.westfalen.de Kai Henningsen YYYYYYY
ka...@simons-rock.edu Karl A. Krueger YYYYYYY
ka...@hevanet.com Karl Eckler YNY----
ka...@rci.ripco.com Karl Meyer YYYYYYY
kau...@mcs.com Michael L. Kaufman YNY----
Ke...@fairbruk.demon.co.uk Dr Kevin Blackburn YYYYYYY
khe...@f10.facts.uky.edu Kenneth Herron YYYYNYY
kig...@PEAK.ORG Pat Kight NNNNNNN
kim...@utu.fi Kimmo Ketolainen YYYYYYY
kl...@netcom.com Robert A. Klahn NNNNNNN
klas...@informatik.tu-muenchen.de Henning Klaskala -YY----
km1...@csc.albany.edu Matthew T. Kinney YYNYYYY
L1...@ZFN.UNI-BREMEN.DE Martin Schr"oder YYYYYYY
la...@freenet.vancouver.bc.ca Lawrence Lee YYY-YYY
la...@duphy4.drexel.edu Charles Lane YYYYYYY
la...@halcyon.com Lantz Rowland YYYYYYY
la...@falcon.kla.com Larry Dunn YYYYYYY
lar...@w6yx.stanford.edu Alan Larson NNNNNNN
la...@RT66.com Lazlo Nibble YYYYYYY
lcul...@oucsace.cs.ohiou.edu Laura J. Cullumbine -NN----
le...@nbi.com Leigh Melton NNNYYYY
le...@BBN.COM Joel B. Levin NYYYYYY
levi...@smtplink.NGC.COM John A Levinson -N-----
lf...@midway.uchicago.edu Glenn Carnagey YYYYY-Y
li...@cs.indiana.edu Kevin T. Likes YYYYYYY
lip...@PrimeNet.Com James J. Lippard YYYYYYY
lmal...@magnus.acs.ohio-state.edu Louise C Mallory YYYYYYY
lofs...@lava.net Karen Lofstrom YYYYYYY
lro...@free.org Luis A. Rodriguez NYYNYNY
l...@taligent.com Larry Rosenstein YYYYYYY
luc...@iinf01.ing.univaq.it. Gino Lucrezi YYYYNYY
lu...@as-node.jena.thur.de Lutz Donnerhacke NYNNNNN
lvi...@cas.org Larry W. Virden NNNNNNN
ly...@netcom.com Conrad "Lynx" Wong NNYN-NN
mad...@mars.superlink.net John M Koons -N-----
mag...@tina.jpl.nasa.gov Kevin Maguire YNYYYNY
MALL...@URIACC.URI.EDU Michael Allen -NN----
mal...@nwu.edu Mark Allen YYYYYYY
mar...@PrimeNet.Com Marcio Watanabe NYYYYYY
ma...@alive.ampr.ab.ca Marc SLemko YYYYNYY
Mark-...@deshaw.com Mark Moraes NYNYYYY
ma...@ve6mgs.ampr.ab.ca Mark Gregory Salyzyn YYYYYYY
martim...@dkb.dk MARTIM JENSEN YNY-N--
ma...@aodc.gov.au Matthew Hannigan YYYYYYY
matt...@wln.com -N-----
ma...@comm.mot.com Matthew J. Keller YNYYYYY
m...@beatles.cselt.stet.it Maurizio Codogno YY-YYYY
m...@octel.com Gary L. Maxwell YNYYYYY
MBA...@KENTVM.KENT.EDU Michael Bauser YYYYNYY
m...@SSD.intel.com Mike Northam YYYYYYY
mcdo...@aries.scs.uiuc.edu J. D. McDonald YNYNNYY
mcdo...@teleport.com Daniel J. McDonald YYYYYYY
mcol...@nyx10.cs.du.edu Mike Collins <col...@oxmol.co.uk> -N-----
m...@piglet.portable.com Mark Ball YYYYYYY
me...@efn.org Michael Ehli YYYYYYY
me...@ssrl01.slac.stanford.edu -N-NNNY
mes...@umich.edu Matt Messina YNYYYYY
m...@cs.tu-berlin.de Markus Freericks YYYYNNY
m...@ac.duke.edu Michael Grubb NYNYNYY
mh...@raven.phs.com Mike Hatz YYYYYYY
miba...@leland.Stanford.EDU Mike Ballard -N-----
mich...@cs.wisc.edu Michael Lee YYYYYYY
mi...@cosy.sbg.ac.at Thomas 'Mike' Michlmayr YYYYYYY
mi...@ssd.fsi.com Mike Bates x581 YYYYYYY
mi...@PrimeNet.Com Michael Quinlan YYYYYYY
mi...@hp56.rbg.informatik.th-darmstadt.de Walter Misar -YYYYYY
MIS...@csc.canterbury.ac.nz Carey Evans YYYY-YY
m...@fly.HiWAAY.net Michael J. Norton -YYYY-Y
m...@graphics.cornell.edu Mitch Collinsworth YYYYNYY
m...@RedBrick.COM M Mike Taksar YYYYYYY
MOR...@FNALV.FNAL.GOV Greg Morrow YYYYYYY
msat...@jungle.com Michael Sattler YYYYYYY
m...@sq.com Mark Brader NYYYYYY
mue...@cis.udel.edu Ralf Muehlen YNNYYYY
mu...@idiom.com David Muir Sharnoff YYY----
mus...@netcom.com Bill Muskett YYYYYYY
mw...@ix.netcom.com Michael Jackson -NN--NN
nar...@optsun.riken.go.jp Helge Nareid YYYYYYY
Nate...@Dartmouth.EDU Nathan K. Edel YYYN-NN
nat...@bwh.harvard.edu Nathan Mehl YYYYNYY
ne...@bbms.iac.honeywell.com Richard D. Neal YYYYYYY
ned...@gate.net Charles E. Bush YYY----
Neil....@Smallworld.co.uk Neil Pawson -YY----
ne...@spl.co.za Neil Thompson YYYYYYY
neur...@pavlov.psyc.queensu.ca Peter Donald YYYYYYY
ni...@inferno.fc.hp.com Nick Ingegneri NNNNNNN
ni...@netcom.com Art Nicolaysen YNYYYYY
nigel...@utoronto.ca Nigel Allen YNYNNN-
ni...@sparrowhawk.dartmouth.edu Nils Nieuwejaar YYYYYYY
nma...@athena.compulink.forthnet.gr Nikolaos Makrymanolakis YYYYYYY
nm...@cus.cam.ac.uk Nick Maclaren YYYYYYY
nor...@twinski.toppoint.de Norbert Hoffmann YYYYNYY
nri...@roadrunner.tiac.net Nicholas Riley -N-----
nsa...@quack.kfu.com Nick Sayer -N-----
oa...@Glue.umd.edu Douglas Oard YYYYNY-
Octob...@crecon.demon.co.uk T. Bruce Tober -NN----
Olivier...@imag.fr Olivier Cinquin -N-----
op...@fine-print.com Matthew S. Warren YYYYYYY
o...@pell.com YNNNYNY
ot...@vaxb.acs.unt.edu M. "usenet junkie" Otto N-YYNY-
P-P...@uiuc.edu Paul Pomes YYYYYYY
p...@cnx.com Pab Sungenis YYYYYYY
pa...@shell.com Stephen O. Pace YYYYYYY
pa...@eiffel.LCS.MIT.EDU Patrick J. LoPresti NNYYYYY
Pa...@barnett.demon.co.uk Paul Barnett NNNNNNN
pa...@lysator.liu.se Paul Svensson -N-NNNN
pa...@tso4a.can.cdc.com Paul Oh YYYYYYY
pa...@CERF.NET Paul Phillips YYYYYYY
p...@ic.net phil reed YYYYYYY
pdca...@ftech.co.uk Piers Cawley YYYY-YY
PEACO...@cobra.uni.edu Todd Peacock YNYYYYY
Pekka.Al...@hut.fi Pekka Ala-Honkola YYYYYYY
pem...@is.NYU.EDU Petrea Mitchell -YY-Y-N
pen...@cabell.vcu.edu Charles Castevens NNYNYYY
pe...@bonkers.taronga.com Peter da Silva --Y-N--
pe...@haywire.DIALix.COM Peter Wemm YYYYYY-
pe...@manorcon.demon.co.uk Peter Sullivan YYYYYYY
pet...@telerama.lm.com Peter Berger YNYYYYY
pet...@ic.net Peter Campbell YYYYYYY
phae...@halcyon.com Mark Phaedrus YYY----
picc...@crl.com Anthony G. Picciano YYYYYYY
pie...@shell.Portal.COM Pierre Uszynski YYNYNNY
pj...@leicester.ac.uk PETE HUMBLE YYYYYYY
pol...@uran.informatik.uni-bonn.de A. Polzer YNYYYYY
popa...@PO-Box.McGill.CA Bart Beaty YYYYYYY
pre...@teleport.com Daniel Elbaum -N-----
pri...@cs.monash.edu.au GLen Pringle YYY----
PRM...@lmsmgr.lerc.nasa.gov Michelle Mader YYYYYYY
PSm...@aol.com Pat Smith YYYYYYY
ptb...@owl.WPI.EDU Pete Bastien YNNYYYY
p...@arlut.utexas.edu Richard Bainter YYYYYYY
purc...@MO.NET Kathy Purcell YYYYYYY
p...@cacs.usl.edu Pirawat Watanapongse YYYYYYY
pwh...@freenet.scri.fsu.edu Patricia R. White YYYYYYY
py...@avocet.ma.iup.edu Matt Schnierle YYYYYYY
quabid...@taligent.com Quabidur R. Safi YYYYYYY
r.k...@qut.edu.au Robert King YYYY-YY
radr...@panix.com Rebecca Drayer NNNNNNN
ra...@hri.com Reto Lichtensteiger YYY-Y-N
ran...@ms.uky.edu David W. Rankin Jr. NNNNNNN
Raphael...@aachen.eed.ericsson.se Raphael Quinet YYYYYYY
rcl...@nyx10.cs.du.edu Robert W. F. Clark YYYYYYY
rdr...@math.berkeley.edu Renaud Dreyer NNYNNNN
rei...@kruppel.molbio.mssm.edu John Bertram Reinitz YNYNNNN
r...@BTR.Com Robert Elton Maas -YY-N--
REW...@gti.net Rob Woiccak NYYYYYY
rh...@cygnus.arc.nasa.gov Robert Haas NNNYYYY
rhu...@cwis.unomaha.edu Roxanne Hunter YYYYYYY
rh...@fit.qut.edu.au Rhys Weatherley YYYYNYY
ri...@lat.com Rich Mahn YYYYYYY
Richard...@palmer.com Richard Palmer YYYYYYY
ric...@gold.interlog.com Richard Sexton YNY----
ric...@turnpike.com richard clayton YNYYYYY
ri...@bcm.tmc.edu Richard Miller YYYYYYY
rick...@cpcug.org Richard Cook YYYYYYY
ric...@world.std.com Paul Rickter YYYYYYY
rick...@mindspring.com Preston A. Rickwood -NN----
rjo...@us.oracle.com Roger B. Jones, Jr. YYYYYYY
r...@spider.compart.fi Riku Saikkonen YYYYYYY
rka...@husc.harvard.edu Rachel Meredith Kadel YYYYYYY
rkle...@neumann.uwaterloo.ca Rob Leitman YYNYNYY
r...@netcom.com Rich Ahrens NNNNNNN
rmar...@gate.net Ronald J. Marlowe -N-----
r...@gold.sni.ca Russell Crook YYY-NYY
rms...@uci.edu Ruth M. Sylte YYYYYYY
rmt...@skywalker.ecn.uoknor.edu Richard Todd YYYYYYY
rne...@media.mit.edu Ron Newman YYYYYYY
robe...@hamer.ibd.nrc.ca Walter Roberson NYYY-YY
rob...@hsc.fr.net Ollivier Robert YYYYYYY
ro...@rosp.demon.co.uk Robin Prior YYYYYYY
robs...@u.washington.edu Robert P. Smith YYYYYYY
rode...@ibcinc.com Roderick Schertler NYYYYYY
Ron.C.Ki...@email.HUB.TEK.COM Ron C Kirkpatrick YYYYYYY
ros...@faerun.mi.org Rod Shelton YYYYYYY
r...@CS.Stanford.EDU Russ Allbery YYYYYYY
r...@pipeline.com Robert S. Camm YYYYYYY
rsm...@maxwell.ee.washington.edu Randy Smith YNYYYYY
r...@mtuxj.att.com R. T. Wurth YNNYYYY
ruck...@parc.xerox.com William Rucklidge YYYYYYY
ruf...@dxcern.cern.ch J. Rufinus YYYYYYY
rwa...@jabba.ess.harris.com Ralph Waters YYYYYYY
rwil...@ccnet.com Bob Wilkins YYYYYYY
s321...@techunix.technion.ac.il Ofir Carny YNY----
sa...@sabri.pc.my S.M.Sabri S.M.Ismail YYYYYYY
SA...@UG.EDS.COM Wayne Sanders-Unrein -YYYYYY
sas...@unx.sas.com Bruce Tindall YYYYYYY
scco...@inlink.com Bill Stewart-Cole YYYYNYY
s...@w0x0f.mti.sgi.com Steve Fenwick YYYYYYY
schl...@math.tu-berlin.de Wolfram Schlickenrieder YNYYYYY
schu...@pitt.edu Christina Schulman NYYYYYY
schw...@max.tiac.net Edmund Schweppe YNYYNYY
sco...@gibbs.oit.unc.edu D. A. Scocca YYYYYYY
sc...@tandem.com Scott Hazen Mueller -YNYYYY
sco...@crl.com Scott Van Note YYYYYYY
sco...@ancho.ucs.indiana.edu Scott Southwick YYYYYYY
se...@hplsbs.hpl.hp.com Bart Sears YYYYYYY
seg...@ss2.sews.wpafb.af.mil GAYLORD E. SEGER YYYYYYY
seg...@semyam.dinoco.de Stefan Eggers YYYYYYY
se...@panix.com Seth Breidbart YYYYYYY
sg...@leicester.ac.uk Sean Donohue -YYYYYY
Shar...@aol.com Paula Lynn Mann -N-----
sha...@faceplant.gvg.TEK.COM Jurgen Schmidt NYYYNNY
shi...@tembel.org Michael Shields YYYYNYY
shr...@earthlink.net Lynda L. True YYYYYYY
si...@midland.co.nz Simon Lyall YYYYYYY
Sin...@bcde.demon.co.uk Steven Inglis ---YYYY
sip...@SIP.Unisys.COM Paul Sutcliffe Jr. YYY---Y
siri...@pentagon.io.com Doug Sheppard Y-YNYYY
SJT...@ix.netcom.com SJ Towse YYY----
sko...@netcom.com Stan Koper YYYYYYY
SMR...@OCVAXA.CC.OBERLIN.EDU Mike Richey YNYYYYY
som...@enea.se Erland Sommarskog -YY--YY
spa...@phyast.pitt.edu Jacob Sparre Andersen YYYYNYY
spe...@cs.man.ac.uk Claire Speed YYY----
spe...@us.oracle.com Stephen Peters -YYYN--
spi...@cobra.esxf.uwindsor.ca Andrew Spicer YNYYYYY
spi...@Orb.Nashua.NH.US Spider Boardman YYYYYYY
s...@vx.com Stephen Potter -YYYYYY
stai...@bga.com Dwight Brown NNNYYYY
stan...@uiuc.edu Stan Kerr YYYYYYY
sta...@OCE.ORST.EDU John Stanley YNYYNNY
stan...@emerald.tufts.edu Saul Tannenbaum YYYYYYY
ste...@intac.com Russell Steinthal YNNNNNN
st...@wimsey.com Stephanie Smith -YY----
st...@kura.jpl.nasa.gov Ronald Stephen Schlaifer -NN----
st...@paranoia.mordor.com Steven D. Borrelli YYYYNYY
sto...@cis.umassd.edu Michael A. Stoodt YYYYYYY
s...@valinor.mythical.com Stu Labovitz NYNYNNY
stu...@mrcnext.cso.uiuc.edu Anthony J. Stuckey NNNNYNY
sw...@boco.co.gov Shane Castle NNNYYYY
sw...@bokop.win-uk.net S.W.F. Borthwick YYYY-YY
syl...@netcom.com Nicholas Sylvain NNYYYYY
syl...@grove.ufl.EDU Ben Ostrowsky YYYYYYY
tac...@ccs.carleton.ca Christina Craft YYYYYYY
t...@big.att.com Tom Limoncelli NYYYYYY
ta...@uunet.uu.net David C Lawrence N-YYNYY
tam...@oxy.edu Mike Tamada -N-----
tan...@spud.pp.fi Taneli Huuskonen -YYYYYY
tau...@penguin.inetnebr.com Agris Taurins YYNNNNY
tb...@sybase.com Tony Basoglu YYYYYYY
t...@mcs.com Thomas Cuny NYYYYYY
telenet!rootbeer!dmon...@uunet.uu.net Dave Montuori YNYYYYY
te...@PrimeNet.Com Terra Goodnight YYYYYYY
t...@wimsey.com James Baier YNY----
Thomas....@Eng.Sun.COM Tom Granvold -N-----
Thomas...@ciw.uni-karlsruhe.de Thomas Koenig YYYYNYY
t...@eds.co.nz Tim Frost YYYYYYY
TI...@UMWELT.ecolink.org Tim Themann YYNNYYY
ti...@tezcat.com Discord (Tina Sikorski) YYYY--Y
tkir...@bardeen.physics.csbsju.edu Tom Kirkman YYYYYYY
tku...@cc.UManitoba.CA Thomas G. Kucera YNYYYYY
tlg...@cs.arizona.edu Ted Louis Glenn YYNYYYY
tly...@alumni.caltech.edu Tim Lynch YYY----
t...@world.std.com Tom Breton NYNYNNY
to...@nutria.nrlssc.navy.mil Todd Mullins YYYYYYY
t...@compton.demon.co.uk Tom Hughes YYYYYYY
t...@wierius.stat.com Tom Parker YYYYYYY
to...@cae.wisc.edu Tomas Willis YYYY-YY
to...@POOL.Informatik.RWTH-Aachen.DE Thomas Stockheim YYYYYY-
to...@columbia.edu Lurking Girl -YY----
tp...@andrew.cmu.edu Terri Palmer YNY----
tpr...@cadcam.pms.ford.com YYYYYYY
tri...@panix.com Chris Trimble -NY----
trin...@refine.ENET.dec.com George Tringali YYYYYYY
tski...@uni.uiuc.edu Tim Skirvin YYY----
turn...@shako.sk.tsukuba.ac.jp Stephen J. Turnbull YYYYYYY
twpi...@midway.uchicago.edu Tim Pierce -YYYNYY
t...@eecs.umich.edu Tom Galloway YNYYNYY
tyk...@cbacon2.unomaha.edu Brad Littlejohn YYYYYYY
U58...@UICVM.UIC.EDU Michael Serfas -NY----
uda...@kcl.ac.uk Harry Maurice Johnston YYYYYYY
unt...@netcom.com Jason Untulis -N-----
u...@knus.tricbbs.fn.sub.org Uwe Storbeck YYYYYNY
UZ3...@vm1.ulg.ac.be Van de Paar YYYYYYY
v.nar...@ic.ac.uk Vartan Narinian NN-YYYY
vane...@maroon.tc.umn.edu John Van Essen -YY----
VE...@gateway.ce.utk.edu David Veal Y-YYYYY
vfoa...@huey.csun.edu Dan Hirschi -YY----
v...@fct.unl.pt Vasco Pedro YNNYNYY
wag...@ls10.informatik.uni-dortmund.de Michael Wagener YYYY-NN
wa...@moacs.indiv.nl.net Waldi Ravens -YYY--Y
wan...@kingkong.escape.de Ulf Bahrenfuss YYYYYYY
war...@zion.Consultix.COM Warren Lavallee YYYYYYY
we...@rhrk.uni-kl.de Christoph Weber-Fahr NNYNNNN
wer...@cs.utexas.edu Werner Uhrig YYYYYYY
wha...@tauceti.uta.edu Billy Harris NNNNNNN
wha...@u.washington.edu Jennifer Melusky YYYYYYY
whsu...@hamlet.uncg.edu WILLIAM H. SUDDERTH YYYYYYY
wil...@smile.apdg.com William Pietri -YY----
wi...@dumain.demon.co.uk Bill Hay YYYYYYY
wjw...@kocrsv01.delcoelect.com William Joseph Winn -N----N
Wo...@graywolf.tamu.edu David J Duchscher YNYYYYY
wo...@ems.PSU.EDU Jeff Wolfe YYYYYYY
wom...@aquilagroup.com Christopher M. Conway YYYYYYY
wt...@juts.ccc.amdahl.com Wilton Byrum NNNNNNN
xt...@trentu.ca Kate Gregory NYYYYYY
yb...@panix.com Ben Yalow YYYYYYY
yuval...@Indigo.co.il Yuval Kfir YYYYYYY
ze...@skypoint.com Gregory S. Youngblood YNYYYYY
ze...@jhu.edu Jeffrey M. Odom YYYYYNY
Votes in error
------------------------------------------------------------------------------
alex.pro...@unh.edu Alexander Proussevitch
! No vote statement in message
bi...@mousa.demon.co.uk Bill Bedford
! No ballot
David.K...@jpl.nasa.gov Dave Wilcox
! No vote statement in message
dles...@cvsd.cv.com Dmitry Leschiner
! No vote statement in message
dub...@JSP.UMontreal.CA Martin Dubeau
! No vote statement in message
e...@crl.com edi vache'
! No vote statement in message
jaf...@rainbow.uchicago.edu Alan Jaffray
! No ballot
jawbo...@eznet.com jawbonflat
! disqualified by votetaker, e-mail questions bounced "unknown user"
k...@ptolemy.arc.nasa.gov k p c
! No ballot
li...@itsa.ucsf.EDU Dmitri Lissin
! No vote statement in message
loma...@lafvax.lafayette.edu Constantine I. Lomakin
! No vote statement in message
Michael=Luevane%Purch%N...@banyan.BV.TEK.COM
! No ballot
mi...@chimera.med.virginia.edu Mike Chapman
! disqualified by votetaker, "unknown user" - notified at new address
[The voter replied with a decision to abstain on the news.admin reorg.]
mi...@umich.edu Michele Tepper
! No ballot
ni...@cimio.co.uk Nick Waterman
! No ballot
obyc...@bev.net Ollie McKagen
! No ballot
pal...@eskimo.com Dr. Peter John van de Waal-Palms
! No vote statement in message
pall...@ccs.neu.edu Douglas Reay
! No ballot
sche...@xdev.fdma.com Michael S. Scheidell
! No ballot
VOTING ANALYSIS
All dates and times in this section are in US Pacific Time, standard or
daylight time as appropriate. (Pacific Daylight Time began April 2 at 2AM.)
The first vote arrived at Mon Mar 13 12:56:14 1995.
news.admin.hierarchies passed on Wed Mar 15 11:11:09 1995
news.admin.net-abuse.announce passed on Tue Mar 14 20:00:53 1995
news.admin.net-abuse.misc passed on Mon Mar 13 16:44:29 1995
REMOVE news.config passed on Tue Mar 14 15:52:31 1995
REMOVE news.future passed on Wed Mar 15 05:58:39 1995
REMOVE news.newsites passed on Tue Mar 14 15:59:24 1995
REMOVE news.software.notes passed on Tue Mar 14 15:52:31 1995
Supplemental graphs of vote totals, arrival rates, ratios, and differences
have been made available by the votetaker at the following URL on the
World-Wide Web:
http://www.amdahl.com/~ikluft/news.admin/
Everything except for news.admin.net-abuse.announce passed by a strong margin.
Due to the close results of news.admin.net-abuse.announce, additional details
are provided here. After the first week of voting, the group settled into
a fairly stable ratio between 2.14:1 and 2.05:1, with a brief dip down to
2.03:1 which could be viewed at the time as either passing by 6 votes or
3 votes from failing due to the 2-to-1 requirement. The group never fell
below passing again after crossing the threshold on Tue Mar 14.
In the last 9 days of the vote, the margin slowly widened to a final result
of 2.14:1. The result can be described either as passing by 27 "yes" votes
or that it would have taken 14 more "no" votes to defeat the newsgroup,
again due to the 2-to-1 requirement.
Due to the close results, further analysis was done.
1) The possible effects of unnamed voters were considered
2) The possible effects of voters from large online services were considered.
3) The original mail messages were checked for signs of forgeries.
These are each covered below.
1. The possible effects of unnamed voters
Though it is not normal to require names in a UseNet vote, votes without
names are definitely a place to check more closely for mistakes or fraud when
the vote is close. Some checking had already been done on earlier votes.
The following votes were given additional attention for the lack of a name.
(An e-mail has already been sent to them requesting it.)
aa...@netcom.com Aahz YYYYYYY
No name... finger reports valid account but no new info
bal...@nexus.yorku.ca Balaji YYNYYYY
Address & phone available by finger... looks OK
matt...@wln.com -N-----
no info by finger, SMTP reports deliverable but no other info
me...@ssrl01.slac.stanford.edu -N-NNNY
no info by finger/SMTP (system is VMS)
SLAC WWW phone book search returns no results for name "meier"
particle physics group lookup found 4 Meiers on bitnet
o...@pell.com YNNNYNY
UUCP site, no net info
provider is Netcom, o...@netcom.com is David Parsons... not necessarily same
tpr...@cadcam.pms.ford.com YYYYYYY
behind Ford firewall
Net effect if these had been eliminated: Yes - 3, No - 3
Yes No : 2/3? >100? : Pass? : Group
---- ---- : ---- ----- : ----- : -------------------------------------------
388 179 : Yes Yes : Yes : news.admin.net-abuse.announce
2. The possible effects of voters from large online services
Some of the large commercial online serivces have been known for allowing
their users to change their Internet-visible name so they are treated with
caution in voting.
1001...@compuserve.com Duncan Lyall -N-----
7637...@compuserve.com Roy Murphy YYYYNNN
Andyt...@aol.com Andy Jones YYYYYYY
PSm...@aol.com Pat Smith YYYYYYY
Shar...@aol.com Paula Lynn Mann -N-----
BUBB...@delphi.com Michael W. Gillman NNNNNNN
[none from prodigy]
Net effect if these had been eliminated: Yes - 3, No - 3
Yes No : 2/3? >100? : Pass? : Group
---- ---- : ---- ----- : ----- : -------------------------------------------
388 179 : Yes Yes : Yes : news.admin.net-abuse.announce
3. The original mail messages were checked for signs of forgeries.
The text of received mail messages were inspected for the following:
1) a name, or lacking a name should be verifiable via finger, smtp, or
e-mail
2) a properly-formatted e-mail address
3) Received headers tracing back via the expected path to an originating
domain matching the address
This is very time-consuming so a 23% sample (144) of the messages were
checked and no problems were found that weren't already covered above.
Total possible net effect if all three checks: Yes - 6, No - 6
Yes No : 2/3? >100? : Pass? : Group
---- ---- : ---- ----- : ----- : -------------------------------------------
385 176 : Yes Yes : Yes : news.admin.net-abuse.announce
Thus, with all of these methods, the yes-no spread would stay at 209 and the
yes/no ratio would increase to 2.18:1. This leads to the conclusion that
none of these factors in any combination would have had a significant effect
on the results.
However, these factors are not in themselves reasons to disqualify UseNet
votes, only to call attention to them. (Votes that had real problems were
disqualified already.) Having found no other problems with them, these
changes have not been applied to the official results. They remain as stated
at the beginning of this article.
This vote was handled by a neutral third-party votetaker from the UseNet
Volunteer Votetakers (UVV). See http://www.amdahl.com/ext/uvv/