GOING TO DESTROY NEWSGROUPS
no.email.add...@none444.yet
EMAIL ME AT CANCE...@HOTMAIL.COM IF YOU HAVE A PROBLEM WITH THIS.
YOU WANT A WAR?
WE HAVE BEEN VERY NICE SO FAR. WE HAVE A CONSCIENCE AND WE WORK TO POST TO APPROPRIATE NEWSGROUPS BUT IF YOU WANT A FULL ON INFESTATION... LET ME KNOW.
IN THE MEANTIME IF YOU WANT EVERY NEWSGROUP IN THE BOOK TO BE FLOODED THEN THAT IS YOUR DECISION. PLEASE DO NOT MAKE US DO THAT. IF ANYBODY LOVES USENET IT IS US. IT IS OUR BREAD AND BUTTER BUT IF YOU CONTINUE TO IRRESPONSIBLY AFFECT OUR INCOME THEN IT IS ON AND YOU WILL BE THE LOSER ALONG WITH EVERYONE ELSE.
tre...@sirius.com
>HERE IS THE DEAL. IF ONE MORE MESSAGE OF MINE IS CANCELLED I WILL RUIN THE
>NEWSGROUPS. THIS IS NOT AN IDLE THREAT. YOU IDITOS THAT CANCEL ALL OF MY
You really oughta go talk to the head iditos over in nanau.
Dave Hayes
> HERE IS THE DEAL. IF ONE MORE MESSAGE OF MINE IS CANCELLED I WILL RUIN THE NEWSGROUPS.
Oh look. Another terrorist threat.
So if this person carries out his or her threat, is it because of the cancel
message sent for his or her message or because of all the cancels ever
sent out for his or her messages?
--
Dave Hayes - Altadena CA, USA - da...@jetcafe.org
>>> The opinions expressed above are entirely my own <<<
Freedom Knight of Usenet - http://www.jetcafe.org/~dave/usenet
The existence of relative truth does not prove the non-existence
of universal truth.
Henrietta Thomas
is an appropriate response to Mr. Hayes]
In news.admin.net-abuse.usenet on Mon, 27 Jul 1998 08:36:33 +0000, Dave Hayes
<da...@jetcafe.org> wrote:
>no.email.add...@none444.yet wrote:
>> HERE IS THE DEAL. IF ONE MORE MESSAGE OF MINE IS
>>CANCELLED I WILL RUIN THE NEWSGROUPS.
>
>Oh look. Another terrorist threat.
Not funny.
>So if this person carries out his or her threat, is it because of the cancel
>message sent for his or her message or because of all the cancels ever
>sent out for his or her messages?
It is because he was deprived of his freedom of speech. Read the
report below to find out the type of speech this man in famous for.
Henrietta Thomas
h...@wwa.com
--------------------------------------
From: David Ritz <dr...@primenet.com>
Newsgroups: news.admin.net-abuse.sightings
Subject: [usenet] REPOST: Forgery/EMP - BI>2146 - Your Customer Conquernet
[ip143.fort-worth.tx.pub-ip.psi.net]
Followup-To: news.admin.net-abuse.usenet
Date: 27 Jul 1998 03:27:08 GMT
Organization: Auto-Moderation Bot, v0.99a
Lines: 429
Approved: nana...@ravenna.com
Message-ID: <Pine.BSI.3.96.98072...@usr10.primenet.com>
NNTP-Posting-Host: alpha.math.uiuc.edu
Mime-Version: 1.0
X-Pgp-0x9a6c8851: 7E72 E815 8EE0 CAC7 1CFB 5CCB A490 984A
X-Complaints-To: ab...@globalcenter.net
X-Original-Path: usr10.primenet.com!dritz
X-Submissions-To: nana...@cybernothing.org
Old-Content-Type: TEXT/PLAIN; charset=US-ASCII
X-Comment-1: Spam is bad. <http://spam.abuse.net/others/simplespam.html>
X-Comment-2: Kill a spammer for Dobbs.
X-Original-Organization: SpamBusters!
X-Posted-By: dr...@206.165.6.210 (dritz)
X-Meow: yes
X-Auth: PGPMoose V1.1 PGP news.admin.net-abuse.sightings
iQCVAwUBNbvzhrlToqoPI3sVAQEy5QQA3cYRQTo027o57Tm9g60cbTXFoHFIqUZZ
63A/pVXrki72ZDGGEJIAcBKTg1dHBwGi6eZ9CQLj9XNx0eIj1UN53Drf//cAdVF6
MPJtxGO2C70wG9PhUtC6hN6nmC54ntzl60kUlBogVK9BfDYGI+NjT963MSHeeCi3
XvOGYKA2Gno=
=KUCh
Originator: tski...@alpha.math.uiuc.edu
Xref: news.wwa.com news.admin.net-abuse.sightings:24015
---------- Forwarded message ----------
Newsgroups: news.admin.net-abuse.sightings
Date: Thu, 23 Jul 1998 22:28:48 -0700
From: David Ritz <dr...@primenet.com>
To: PSINet Internet Abuse Monitor <ab...@psi.com>,
Network Security <sp...@mercury.earthlink.net>
cc: aoll...@aol.com, le...@sprynet.com, ab...@sprynet.com,
n...@geordi.interserv.net, postm...@interserv.net, secu...@interserv.net,
sup...@extreme-dm.com, ad...@extreme-dm.com
Subject: Forgery/EMP - BI>2146 - Your Customer Conquernet
[ip143.fort-worth.tx.pub-ip.psi.net]
Message-ID: <Pine.BSI.3.96.980723...@usr10.primenet.com>
Followup-To: news.admin.net-abuse.usenet
-----BEGIN PGP SIGNED MESSAGE-----
I guess its time to make a stink. PSINet's pet porno-spammer, Tom
Gartman, hasn't missed a beat. Too bad PSINet appears to have
missed the boat.
EXTREME-DM.COM: Please remove walple (Walker Stemple) from your
WebMaster program.
========================================================================
Dates appear to be munged ~11.5 hours into the future.
========================================================================
Spammed URLs
http://38.192.155.14/japage.htm
http://38.192.155.16/
http://38.192.155.16/harhouse.htm
http://38.192.155.21/
http://38.192.155.27/
========================================================================
Posting-Host summary for ip143.fort-worth.tx.pub-ip.psi.net
1: 1356 1.4142 yotyoityou@sprynet.c ip143.fort-worth.tx. alt.sex
.sleeping-gir Beautiful Blondes fr Wed, 22 Jul 1998 21:
2: 1341 1.4142 dft7iue487@sprynet.c ip143.fort-worth.tx. alt.sex
.swingers.uk, collection of sex vi Wed, 22 Jul 1998 21:
3: 1236 1.4142 ru...@sprynet.com ip143.fort-worth.tx. alt.sex
.teddy-ruxpin porn>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>> Wed, 22 Jul 1998 21:
4: 1254 1.4142 dthgkje4d67@sprynet. ip143.fort-worth.tx. alt.sex
.toupee,alt.s NOW more than 200+ g Wed, 22 Jul 1998 21:
5: 1367 1.4142 577...@sprynet.com ip143.fort-worth.tx. alt.sex
.stories.bond Beautiful Blondes fr Wed, 22 Jul 1998 21:
[snip 1508 lines]
1514: 688 1.4142 ip143.fort-worth.tx.pub-ip.psi.net
1515: 707 1.4142 ip143.fort-worth.tx.pub-ip.psi.net
1516: 690 1.4142 ip143.fort-worth.tx.pub-ip.psi.net
1517: 692 1.4142 ip143.fort-worth.tx.pub-ip.psi.net
1518: 683 1.4142 ip143.fort-worth.tx.pub-ip.psi.net
========================================================================
___________________________________________________________________
Path: newstank.sol.net!newspump.sol.net!cpk-news-hub1.bbnplanet.com!news
.bbnplanet.com!howland.erols.net!newsfeed.internetmci.com!207.217.77.43!
newsfeed1.earthlink.net!nntp.earthlink.net!aol.net
From: fgh...@aol.net
Newsgroups: alt.binaries.pictures.erotica.nipples.large,alt.binaries.pic
tures.erotica.nose,alt.binaries.pictures.erotica.nudism
Subject: Jody Makes U Cum - slutty.jpg (1/1)
Date: Wed, 22 Jul 1998 22:01:22 -0600
Organization: <no organization>
Lines: 56
Message-ID: <220798...@aol.net>
NNTP-Posting-Host: ip143.fort-worth.tx.pub-ip.psi.net
x-no-archive: yes
http://38.192.155.14/japage.htm
Hi Im Jody, and this is Amy, we are new to the net and looking to meet s
ome people
and make some connections to do porn movies. If you are in the Biz check
us out and tell
us if you think we have a chance. PLEASE?
Luv,
Jody and Amy
http://38.192.155.14/japage.htm
<...>
tOed'-2#Nh[@z%Hy(@Ru3w_5[Y0i.ovIv1&F@g4^PJ^";`K[*z
TW6Xao]:JKHQx+7k('CIN?j+x\=A
__________________________________________________________
Information related to this article:
Approximate time article was received: 22-Jul-98 16:41:00 GMT
1: 1517 1.7321 Cosmo Roadkill <cosm ???? alt.bin
aries.picture cmsg cancel <2207982 22 Jul 1998 16:41:30
___________________________________________________________________
Path: newstank.sol.net!newsfeeds.sol.net!newspump.sol.net!news-peer.gip.
net!news.gsl.net!gip.net!news-peer.sprintlink.net!news-backup-east.sprin
tlink.net!news.sprintlink.net!206.251.127.50!worldfeed.gte.net!newsfeed1
.earthlink.net!nntp.earthlink.net!aol.net
From: dry...@aol.net
Newsgroups: alt.binaries.pictures.erotica.animals,alt.binaries.pictures.
erotica.anime,alt.binaries.pictures.erotica.anna
Subject: Jody Makes U Cum - slutty.jpg (1/1)
Date: Wed, 22 Jul 1998 23:00:29 -0600
Organization: <no organization>
Lines: 56
Message-ID: <220798...@aol.net>
NNTP-Posting-Host: ip143.fort-worth.tx.pub-ip.psi.net
x-no-archive: yes
http://38.192.155.14/japage.htm
Hi Im Jody, and this is Amy, we are new to the net and looking to meet s
ome people
and make some connections to do porn movies. If you are in the Biz check
us out and tell
us if you think we have a chance. PLEASE?
Luv,
Jody and Amy
http://38.192.155.14/japage.htm
<...>
- -bG@,O?/GX;:$f;bw7p5v$P<7-LGn;eoh#(Bfiy1(Zu<_'vdAQ
ROW>2>r/.IPTFq2%cDHkCKct?V@)
__________________________________________________________
Information related to this article:
Approximate time article was received: 22-Jul-98 17:40:00 GMT
1: 1553 1.7321 Cosmo Roadkill <cosm ???? alt.bin
aries.picture cmsg cancel <2207982 22 Jul 1998 17:40:24
___________________________________________________________________
Path: newstank.sol.net!newsfeeds.sol.net!feed1.news.erols.com!howland.er
ols.net!psinntp!pubxfer.news.psi.net!sprynet.com
From: r578...@sprynet.com
Newsgroups: viwa.military.sex,zer.t-netz.sex
Subject: Do need to go far for all you desire..... 60029
Date: Thu, 23 Jul 1998 00:24:57 -0600
Organization: <no organization>
Lines: 17
Message-ID: <230798...@sprynet.com>
NNTP-Posting-Host: ip143.fort-worth.tx.pub-ip.psi.net
Hi I'm AMBER,
just put up some of the new pictures my boyfriend took of me,
please go to the site and have a look--maybe they'll buy more of my phot
osets
thanks tons.
AMBER
http://38.192.155.16/harhouse.htm
- --
<PUn:=M^
NDc^,Q",&:?Y$'7H?q3Sv>4"X
__________________________________________________________
Information related to this article:
Approximate time article was received: 22-Jul-98 20:54:00 GMT
1: 1356 1.4142 Cosmo Roadkill <cosm ???? viwa.mi
litary.sex,ze cmsg cancel <2307980 22 Jul 1998 20:55:18
___________________________________________________________________
Path: newstank.sol.net!newspump.sol.net!news-peer.gip.net!news.gsl.net!g
ip.net!news.idt.net!psinntp!pubxfer.news.psi.net!sprynet.com
From: ty8...@sprynet.com
Newsgroups: fido.sex-ger,fido7.antisex
Subject: rainePREG2 - oiur.jpg (1/1) 77946
Date: Wed, 22 Jul 1998 22:45:57 -0600
Organization: <no organization>
Lines: 7
Message-ID: <220798...@sprynet.com>
NNTP-Posting-Host: ip143.fort-worth.tx.pub-ip.psi.net
I caught my stepmom fucking another woman !!!
I took some pictures through the peephole in her bedroom door. WANNA SE
E ???
http://38.192.155.27/
DEBJ1%1e:z<CH9d=qVO;^N>
P.%&#,k_lGt\w$)tFwS80v@/y
__________________________________________________________
Information related to this article:
Approximate time article was received: 22-Jul-98 17:23:00 GMT
1: 1382 1.4142 Cosmo Roadkill <cosm ???? fido.se
x-ger,fido7.a cmsg cancel <2207982 22 Jul 1998 17:25:19
___________________________________________________________________
Path: newstank.sol.net!newspump.sol.net!howland.erols.net!psinntp!pubxfe
r.news.psi.net!sprynet.com
From: fhu...@sprynet.com
Newsgroups: alt.binaries.sounds.erotica,alt.binary.pictures.erotica.inte
r-racial
Subject: <--->MASTURBATING AGAIN!!!--COME AND SEE ME NOW!!!! - me.jpg (1
/1) 96034
Date: Wed, 22 Jul 1998 22:09:47 -0600
Organization: <no organization>
Lines: 5
Message-ID: <220798...@sprynet.com>
NNTP-Posting-Host: ip143.fort-worth.tx.pub-ip.psi.net
complete amateur beastiality collection click below
http://38.192.155.21/
0.JPUGr3&dEIlDLcu@WA*X&#T
__________________________________________________________
Information related to this article:
Approximate time article was received: 22-Jul-98 16:44:00 GMT
1: 1411 1.4142 Cosmo Roadkill <cosm ???? alt.bin
aries.sounds. cmsg cancel <2207982 22 Jul 1998 16:44:34
___________________________________________________________________
Path: newstank.sol.net!newspump.sol.net!news-peer.gip.net!news.gsl.net!g
ip.net!news-peer.sprintlink.net!news-peer-east.sprintlink.net!news.sprin
tlink.net!psinntp!pubxfer.news.psi.net!sprynet.com
From: yotyo...@sprynet.com
Newsgroups: alt.sex.sleeping-girls,alt.sex.sm
Subject: Beautiful Blondes from Adult Destinations! - sfh.jpg (1/1) 6985
2
Date: Wed, 22 Jul 1998 21:43:58 -0600
Organization: <no organization>
Lines: 27
Message-ID: <220798...@sprynet.com>
NNTP-Posting-Host: ip143.fort-worth.tx.pub-ip.psi.net
Yes, traffic was still too high with one mirror site so
here is a second one! Have fun!
Alice and her AWESOME friends have some very nice photos
to show you! ABSOLUTELY YOUNG girls... may not be legal in all
jurisdictions so check your local statutes before visiting!
ALSO FREE ADULT PASSWORDS ACCESSING HUNDREDS OF
ABSOLUTELY AWESOME XXX SITES OF ALL KINDS!
I MEAN ALL KINDS! STRAIGHT, GAY, LESBIAN, TRANS-SEXUAL,
YOUNG, OLD, FAT, THIN, FETISH, FEMDOM, SPANKING, WHIPPING,
SITES OF EVERY KIND ALL ABSOLUTELY FREE USING ONE
ABSOLUTELY FREE PASSWORD!
LIVE INTERACTIVE ABSOLUTELY YOUNG GIRLS IN YOUR BROWSER!
YOU TELL THEM WHAT TO DO AND THEY DO IT!
- ---------------------------------------------------------------
%V^vpRi<<ky6f/d4S&Sg\#_-j
__________________________________________________________
Information related to this article:
Approximate time article was received: 22-Jul-98 16:19:00 GMT
1: 1490 1.4142 Cosmo Roadkill <cosm ???? alt.sex
.sleeping-gir cmsg cancel <2207982 22 Jul 1998 16:20:47
========================================================================
]usr10# traceroute -O 38.192.155.14
]traceroute to 38.192.155.88 (38.192.155.14)
<...>
] 8 fort-worth.tx.central.us.psi.net (38.1.42.222) hostm...@psi.com
] 9 38.192.155.1 (38.192.155.1) hostm...@psi.com
]10 38.192.155.88 (38.192.155.14) hostm...@psi.com
========================================================================
References in http://38.192.155.14/
1. http://38.192.155.161/
2. http://secure.adultcheck.com/cgi-bin/apply.cgi?26735
3. http://secure.adultcheck.com/cgi-bin/apply.cgi?26735
4. http://www.adultcheck.com/cgi-bin/merchant.cgi?26735
5. http://www.kurit.com/ip/7116/amateur
6. http://38.192.155.14/transex.htm
7. http://38.192.155.14/teachsex.htm
8. http://extreme-dm.com/s/?tag=walple
========================================================================
References in http://38.192.155.16/
1. http://38.192.155.161/
2. http://secure.adultcheck.com/cgi-bin/apply.cgi?26735
3. http://secure.adultcheck.com/cgi-bin/apply.cgi?26735
4. http://www.adultcheck.com/cgi-bin/merchant.cgi?26735
5. http://www.kurit.com/ip/7116/amateur
6. http://38.192.155.14/transex.htm
7. http://38.192.155.14/teachsex.htm
8. http://extreme-dm.com/s/?tag=walple
========================================================================
References in http://38.192.155.21/
1. http://38.192.155.161/
2. http://secure.adultcheck.com/cgi-bin/apply.cgi?26735
3. http://secure.adultcheck.com/cgi-bin/apply.cgi?26735
4. http://www.adultcheck.com/cgi-bin/merchant.cgi?26735
5. http://www.kurit.com/ip/7116/amateur
6. http://38.192.155.14/transex.htm
7. http://38.192.155.14/teachsex.htm
8. http://extreme-dm.com/s/?tag=walple
========================================================================
References in http://38.192.155.27/
1. http://38.192.155.161/
2. http://secure.adultcheck.com/cgi-bin/apply.cgi?26735
3. http://secure.adultcheck.com/cgi-bin/apply.cgi?26735
4. http://www.adultcheck.com/cgi-bin/merchant.cgi?26735
5. http://www.kurit.com/ip/7116/amateur
6. http://38.192.155.14/transex.htm
7. http://38.192.155.14/teachsex.htm
8. http://extreme-dm.com/s/?tag=walple
========================================================================
]usr10# traceroute -O 38.192.155.14
]traceroute to 38.192.155.14 (38.192.155.14)
<...>
] 8 fort-worth.tx.central.us.psi.net (38.1.42.222) hostm...@psi.com
] 9 * 38.192.155.1 (38.192.155.1) hostm...@psi.com
]10 38.192.155.14 (38.192.155.14) hostm...@psi.com
========================================================================
|usr10# whois mapsi
|MAPSI (MA669-ORG) conqu...@HOTMAIL.COM 1-888-468-0919
|MAPSI (MA670-ORG) forbidd...@SPRINTMAIL.COM 1-888-468-0919
|MAPSI (MA671-ORG) wste...@MINDSPRING.COM 1-888-468-0919
|mapsi (ADULTFREEWAY-DOM) ADULTFREEWAY.COM
|mapsi, mapsi (MM14549) guru...@HOTMAIL.COM 888-398-6532
|MAPSI (MA671-ORG) wste...@MINDSPRING.COM
| MAPSI
| PO Box 171139
| Arlington,, TX 76003
| US
|
| 1-888-468-0919
| Fax- 1-888-468-0919
|
| Record last updated on 23-Jun-98.
| Database last updated on 23-Jul-98 04:10:55 EDT.
>>>> I hope you're paying attention, PSINet. <<<<
>>>> This is the Miami connection. <<<<
|Stemple, Walker (WS2050) wste...@MINDSPRING.COM
| Walker Stemple
| PO Box 161748
| Miami, FL 33116
| 1 305 650 1631
|
| Record last updated on 21-Oct-97.
| Database last updated on 23-Jul-98 04:10:55 EDT.
|MAPSI (MA669-ORG) conqu...@HOTMAIL.COM
| MAPSI
| PO Box 171139
| Arlington,, TX 76003
| US
|
| 1-888-468-0919
| Fax- 1-888-468-0919
|
| Record last updated on 23-Jun-98.
| Database last updated on 23-Jul-98 04:10:55 EDT.
|mapsi, mapsi (MM14549) guru...@HOTMAIL.COM
| mapsi
| po box 171139
| Arlington,, TX 76003
| 888-398-6532
|
| Record last updated on 11-Jun-98.
| Database last updated on 23-Jul-98 04:10:55 EDT.
|MAPSI (MA670-ORG) forbidd...@SPRINTMAIL.COM
| MAPSI
| PO Box 171139
| Arlington,, TX 76003
| US
|
| 1-888-468-0919
| Fax- 1-888-468-0919
|
| Record last updated on 23-Jun-98.
| Database last updated on 23-Jul-98 04:10:55 EDT.
========================================================================
Thank you for your prompt attention to this matter.
- --
David Ritz <dr...@primenet.com> Finger for PGP Public Keys
Fight against spam & spammers http://spam.abuse.net
Outlaw Junk Email. ++++++ Join CAUCE ++++++ http://www.cauce.org
** Be kind to animals - Kiss a shark. **
-----BEGIN PGP SIGNATURE-----
Version: PGP for Personal Privacy 5.5.3
Comment: Finger:dr...@primenet.com for Public Keys
iQCVAwUBNbgLDNzLrWGabIhRAQGKygP/QLTB2CwGJCx/kBhfovVcRB5HWcm/P9rc
1rprsYi+uOpZhGkz9Pjt/OKaBzMBCsV58XkLIk0y3dZCHbhHcf21B3L1ExXeyw/W
ttETNYYKZatddUuzclojxmotPffkVUN8MLke/xJ1g564lfjweXWf9j8ezEm7hnQr
1g1r9dAu5nY=
=kCgw
-----END PGP SIGNATURE-----
Paul Vader
Corn chips for stupid people? *
--
* PV something like badgers--something like lizards--and something
like corkscrews.
Dave Hayes
> In news.admin.net-abuse.usenet on Mon, 27 Jul 1998 08:36:33 +0000, Dave Hayes
> <da...@jetcafe.org> wrote:
> >no.email.add...@none444.yet wrote:
> >> HERE IS THE DEAL. IF ONE MORE MESSAGE OF MINE IS
> >>CANCELLED I WILL RUIN THE NEWSGROUPS.
> >
> >Oh look. Another terrorist threat.
>
> Not funny.
I'm sorry your sense of humor does not automatically engage upon reading messages
like the one I responded to. It appears your sense of irony doesn't either.
Oh well. :)
> >So if this person carries out his or her threat, is it because of the cancel
> >message sent for his or her message or because of all the cancels ever
> >sent out for his or her messages?
> It is because he was deprived of his freedom of speech.
Yep. That would cause a reaction like this.
> Read the report below to find out the type of speech this man in famous for.
Nowhere is there proof that the person who posted the above is, in fact, the
same person referenced below. Nor is there any way of checking the report's
validity. *shrug*
--
Dave Hayes - Altadena CA, USA - da...@jetcafe.org
>>> The opinions expressed above are entirely my own <<<
Freedom Knight of Usenet - http://www.jetcafe.org/~dave/usenet
If we want world peace, we must let go of our attachments and truly
live like nomads. That's where I no mad at you and you no mad at me.
That way there'll surely be no madness on the planet.
Henrietta Thomas
Dave Hayes <da...@jetcafe.org> wrote:
>Henrietta Thomas wrote:
>> In news.admin.net-abuse.usenet on Mon, 27 Jul 1998 08:36:33 +0000, Dave Hayes
>> <da...@jetcafe.org> wrote:
>> >no.email.add...@none444.yet wrote:
>> >> HERE IS THE DEAL. IF ONE MORE MESSAGE OF MINE IS
>> >>CANCELLED I WILL RUIN THE NEWSGROUPS.
>> >
>> >Oh look. Another terrorist threat.
>>
>> Not funny.
>
>I'm sorry your sense of humor does not automatically engage upon reading messages
>like the one I responded to. It appears your sense of irony doesn't either.
>Oh well. :)
I had already read Rick Buchanan's response to Tom Gartman's threat
to destroy the newsgroups, and I thought you were just trying to be sarcastic.
>> >So if this person carries out his or her threat, is it because of the cancel
>> >message sent for his or her message or because of all the cancels ever
>> >sent out for his or her messages?
>> It is because he was deprived of his freedom of speech.
>
>Yep. That would cause a reaction like this.
Score one brownie point for me. But, actually, I was trying to be sarcastic.
>> Read the report below to find out the type of speech this man in famous for.
>
>Nowhere is there proof that the person who posted the above is, in fact, the
>same person referenced below. Nor is there any way of checking the report's
>validity. *shrug*
The message IDs given in the report can be checked, and the cancels
can be verified -- all the major despammers keep logs of their work.
I would also imagine that you can telnet out to the PSI site and take a
look at the spam for yourself.
As to proving the existence of David Ritz, note that he has an email
address. You can write and ask him to call you on the telephone,
and maybe arrange to meet him somehow, to satisfy your curiosity.
Let's try that one out. Send me your phone number by email, so
I can call you up, and maybe then you'll believe that *I* am real.
Henrietta
--
Just because something is allowed doesn't mean it is okay,
or a good idea. --Jeremy Nixon, 7/25/98
Sophocles
-
-Dave Hayes <da...@jetcafe.org> wrote:
-
->Henrietta Thomas wrote:
->
->> Dave Hayes <da...@jetcafe.org> wrote:
->>
->>>no.email.add...@none444.yet wrote:
->>>
So how come Dave the Resurrector is bringing back
posts from some but not others? Of course we all know
Lewis is content oriented but this is a surprise--it's so
blatant.
->>>> HERE IS THE DEAL. IF ONE MORE MESSAGE OF MINE IS
->>>>CANCELLED I WILL RUIN THE NEWSGROUPS.
Sounds reasonable to me sir.
->>>Oh look. Another terrorist threat.
->>
->> Not funny.
I thought it was most amusing.
->I'm sorry your sense of humor does not automatically engage upon reading
->messages like the one I responded to. It appears your sense of irony doesn't
->either. Oh well. :)
-
-I had already read Rick Buchanan's response to Tom Gartman's threat
You are downright obsessed with Tom Gartman Henrietta!!! Geez--give
it a rest or take some meds. I have no problem with Mr. Gartman and
sincerely hope he creates as much havoc as conceivable if others
interfer with his posts.
-to destroy the newsgroups, and I thought you were just trying to be sarcastic.
The cabal has destroyed many newsgroups--remember alt.is.too for example--
that was quite open and blatant. Why can cabal do such things and not
Mr. Gartman. Oh--I get it--it's that old double standard like with third
party cancels--you can do it because you're one of Gods chosen ones
but if Hip or those using his wonderful software (free to all who sincerely
want to use it to end cancels) do it they are somehow 'rogue'--now there's
an amusing term coming from a gang of thugs.
->>>So if this person carries out his or her threat, is it because of the cancel
->>>message sent for his or her message or because of all the cancels ever
->>>sent out for his or her messages?
->>
->> It is because he was deprived of his freedom of speech.
->
->Yep. That would cause a reaction like this.
-
-Score one brownie point for me. But, actually, I was trying to be sarcastic.
Effort is half the battle Henrietta.
->> Read the report below to find out the type of speech this man in famous for.
->
->Nowhere is there proof that the person who posted the above is, in fact, the
->same person referenced below. Nor is there any way of checking the report's
->validity. *shrug*
Oh--but with a bit of smoke and mirrors she'll create that impression. But
who cares in any event. The threat is perfectly reasonable if someone is
canceling his posts.
-The message IDs given in the report can be checked,
And could be forged.
-and the cancels can be verified -- all the major despammers keep logs
I've never heard of _Hip*Crime keeping logs.
-of their work. I would also imagine that you can telnet out to the PSI
-site and take a look at the spam for yourself.
But that assumes that Dave has your obession with it Henrietta. I
would find that doubtful.
-As to proving the existence of David Ritz, note that he has an email
-address. You can write and ask him to call you on the telephone,
-and maybe arrange to meet him somehow, to satisfy your curiosity.
But again that assumes he has your obsession Henrieatta.
-Let's try that one out. Send me your phone number by email, so
-I can call you up, and maybe then you'll believe that *I* am real.
Ah--so you're finally cuming on to Mr. Hayes--I suspected as much
you know. Good thing too--because one thing is obvious from
your recent posts--you just aren't having any fun at what you're
doing. Most anti-cabal do you know.
Steve
news.admin.censorship
-
-Henrietta
Dave Hayes
> Dave Hayes <da...@jetcafe.org> wrote:
...
> >> Read the report below to find out the type of speech this man in famous for.
> >
> >Nowhere is there proof that the person who posted the above is, in fact, the
> >same person referenced below. Nor is there any way of checking the report's
> >validity. *shrug*
>
> The message IDs given in the report can be checked, and the cancels
> can be verified -- all the major despammers keep logs of their work.
How do I know I can trust those logs?
> I would also imagine that you can telnet out to the PSI site and take a
> look at the spam for yourself.
How do I know I can trust their site?
> As to proving the existence of David Ritz, note that he has an email
> address.
It's not necessary to prove his existence. It's necessary to prove that
whomever that is had real proof of the connections implied.
> Let's try that one out. Send me your phone number by email, so
> I can call you up, and maybe then you'll believe that *I* am real.
You can't be serious? :)
--
Dave Hayes - Altadena CA, USA - da...@jetcafe.org
>>> The opinions expressed above are entirely my own <<<
Freedom Knight of Usenet - http://www.jetcafe.org/~dave/usenet
Love thy neighbor as thyself, but choose your neighborhood.
Jeremy
>> RUIN THE NEWSGROUPS.
>
>
Eh, who cares? Just give him a hierarchy, and he'll be happy. :)
--
Jeremy | jer...@exit109.com
"I wish to have no connection with any ship that does not sail fast;
for I intend to go in harm's way." --John Paul Jones
Henrietta Thomas
Dave Hayes <da...@jetcafe.org> wrote:
>Henrietta Thomas wrote:
>> The message IDs given in the report can be checked, and the cancels
>> can be verified -- all the major despammers keep logs of their work.
>
>How do I know I can trust those logs?
You don't. You have to trust the despammer who kept the logs.
>> I would also imagine that you can telnet out to the PSI site and take a
>> look at the spam for yourself.
>
>How do I know I can trust their site?
You don't. You have to trust PSI when they say their site can be trusted.
>> As to proving the existence of David Ritz, note that he has an email
>> address.
>
>It's not necessary to prove his existence. It's necessary to prove that
>whomever that is had real proof of the connections implied.
You'll have to contact him and ask him for the proof.
>> Let's try that one out. Send me your phone number by email, so
>> I can call you up, and maybe then you'll believe that *I* am real.
>
>You can't be serious? :)
Would you rather I come to Altadena and park on your doorstep
until you admit that I am real?
Henrietta Thomas
Dave Hayes <da...@jetcafe.org> wrote:
>Henrietta Thomas wrote:
========= WAS CANCELLED BY =======:
Path: ...!howland.erols.net!news.idt.net!psinntp!pubxfer.news.psi.net!news.wwa.com!hkt
From: kre...@pihplp.gov
Newsgroups: news.admin.net-abuse.usenet,japan.test
Subject: Re: [LONG] Re: GOING TO DESTROY NEWSGROUPS
Supersedes: <35bfda5a...@news.wwa.com>
Date: 30 Jul 1998 23:05:50 GMT
Organization: PSINet
Lines: 2
Message-ID: <vuisxfshbx.35...@news.wwa.com>
NNTP-Posting-Host: ip163.fort-worth.tx.pub-ip.psi.net
X-No-Archive: Yes
Supersede.
David Ritz
On Mon, 27 Jul 1998, Dave Hayes wrote:
: Henrietta Thomas wrote:
: > In news.admin.net-abuse.usenet on Mon, 27 Jul 1998 08:36:33 +0000, Dave Hayes
: > <da...@jetcafe.org> wrote:
: > >no.email.add...@none444.yet wrote:
: > >> HERE IS THE DEAL. IF ONE MORE MESSAGE OF MINE IS
: > >>CANCELLED I WILL RUIN THE NEWSGROUPS.
: > >
: > >Oh look. Another terrorist threat.
: >
: > Not funny.
:
: I'm sorry your sense of humor does not automatically engage upon
: reading messages like the one I responded to. It appears your sense
: of irony doesn't either. Oh well. :)
Considering this ne'er-do-well launched a supersedes attack on this
newsgroup last week, I am not amused either. This was far less a
threat than a promise to at least try to attain certain twisted goals.
: > >So if this person carries out his or her threat, is it because of the cancel
: > >message sent for his or her message or because of all the cancels ever
: > >sent out for his or her messages?
: > It is because he was deprived of his freedom of speech.
:
: Yep. That would cause a reaction like this.
Good guess, Dave, but you're a little off base, as usual. Mr.
Gartman's rant, followed by the supersedes attack, were directly
related to his ConquerNet C-block turning to scotched earth. Nothing
I nor anyone else did contributed to this happening. Gartman
single-handedly managed to be so habitually abusive _of_ the net,
PSINet had little choice but to nuke his sorry ass.
Personally, I don't give a flying fuck in hell what Tom Gartman is
selling or what he has to say. I do, however, object strenuously to
his apparent need to say what ever it is 250000 times a month, while
several other entities carry the cost of this attack on the
newsgroups. It is far more destructive than the little hissy-fit
Gartman threw on the morning his connectivity was severed.
If you raise the specter of censorship, you'd damn well better to be
ready to defend the wanton disregard to other's speech exhibited by
this and every other greed driven miscreant who has buried the
newsgroups they're defecating in so deeply in pink manure that there
is no chance, what so ever, for anyone to speak, let alone be heard.
I suspect the closest analogy I can draw for you would be the Cold War
practice of jamming radio broadcasts from the West. This effort was
not meant to improve anyone's ability to communicate. On the
contrary, it was explicitly designed to stem the flow of ideas.
I suppose you'll say that it was the East's right to jam broadcasts;
that they were just expressing themselves. Right?
When you are honored by the ACLU for your defense of the First
Amendment, let me know. You're trying to pull your crap on a long
time civil libertarian who understands just how empty the nonsense you
spout is.
Give it a rest Dave. I, for one, am bored to tears by the constant
cyclic arguments you are particularly fond of bandying about.
You called me a liar in public, while having no evidence to back you
up. I didn't publicly rub your nose in it, when I presented my
evidence to you privately. I suggest you take a little time thinking
before you try libeling me again. As things stand now, its not my
credibility which should be called to question.
: > Read the report below to find out the type of speech this man in famous for.
:
: Nowhere is there proof that the person who posted the above is, in
: fact, the same person referenced below. Nor is there any way of
: checking the report's validity. *shrug*
Say, Dave, the report was genuine. So am I. If you can prove or even
present evidence to the contrary, please do so. If not, bite me.
So far a checking the validity of any of my reports, you'll need to
be fairly quick about it. While I regularly post my reports, the
articles referenced therein are not going to be available at Deja
News. You'll even have to be quick at your "Site of Virtue" of
choice, as many of the groups being covered have exceedingly short
expire times.
Rock out, Dave. I'm sorry for any typos or spelling errors my reports
may contain. If you find any _factual_ errors, please, by all means,
let me know about it. I'll do my best to rectify them.
You'll find my published research to be largely beyond reproach. Only
once in the past couple of years have I mistaken a clever forgery for
the genuine article when filing a report. As I am a man of scruples,
I immediately sent out a correction, not only exonerating the
implicated individual, but demonstrating how and where the forgeries
had taken place.
This is not a criminal court, where there may be a need for proof
beyond reasonable doubt. Even if it were, an overwhelming
preponderance of evidence may lead to a conviction in a case based
entirely on circumstantial evidence. Since I am unable to watch the
spammers I go after in action, I base my findings on the empirical
evidence I'm able to dig up. It is that evidence which is presented.
You may recall an article I posted to nana.usenet back in May. I
believe its the first time Tom Gartman, Max Stemple and Brandon
Battles were mentioned by me, outside of nana.sightings. For your
convenience:
<http://www.dejanews.com/getdoc.xp?AN=353712948&fmt=raw>
BTW -- I have yet to be contacted by Tom Gartman's attorneys. This
may be due to their being required to prepare a criminal defense for
their client.
I'm sorry you'll have a hard time verifying the following message.
Life is tough, sometimes. It seems the listed URL is no longer
reachable. Your inability to access the listed URL does not change,
in any way, the factual content of this message, posted by Tom Gartman
on one of his now slagged websites.
While Gartman's current legal woes my deal with First Amendment
questions, I suspect its more likely a question of how the rape videos
he promotes were attained. Perhaps not everyone appearing in these
tapes was a _consenting_ adult. (Yes, Dave, that is purely conjecture
on my part.)
========================================================================
<http://38.192.155.4/>
Notice
On July 9, 1998 the offices of Forbiddenvideos was raided by
the Dallas Police Dept. and the FBI. These authorities seized
all computers and records from our offices. The FBI
investigation is centered around the Federal stature that
states it is illegal to ship or promote obscene material over
state lines.
We have hired the best first amendment Attorneys in the state
and will fight any charges that may arise from these
allegations with great passion. It is our belief that a
consenting adult should be able to sell products to another
consenting adult as long as it does not include bestiality or
childporn which we do consider obscene material. Our tapes do
not fall under these categories. Therefore we intend to defend
our position to any level up to and including the supreme
court.
To the best our knowledge our customers will not be contacted
or involved in any way. If you ordered any of our tapes and are
contacted by the authorities please e-mail us at
conqu...@hotmail.com .
Please check back with us periodically for updates to this
situation and our target reopening date.
Thank You,
Webmaster
- --
David Ritz <dr...@primenet.com> Finger for PGP Public Keys
Fight against spam & spammers. http://spam.abuse.net
Outlaw Junk Email. ++++++ Join CAUCE ++++++ http://www.cauce.org
** Be kind to animals. - Kiss a shark. **
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David Ritz
On Mon, 27 Jul 1998, Dave Hayes wrote:
: Henrietta Thomas wrote:
: > In news.admin.net-abuse.usenet on Mon, 27 Jul 1998 08:36:33 +0000, Dave Hayes
: > <da...@jetcafe.org> wrote:
: > >no.email.add...@none444.yet wrote:
: > >> HERE IS THE DEAL. IF ONE MORE MESSAGE OF MINE IS
: > >>CANCELLED I WILL RUIN THE NEWSGROUPS.
: > >
: > >Oh look. Another terrorist threat.
: >
: > Not funny.
:
: I'm sorry your sense of humor does not automatically engage upon
: reading messages like the one I responded to. It appears your sense
: of irony doesn't either. Oh well. :)
Considering this ne'er-do-well launched a supersedes attack on this
newsgroup last week, I am not amused either. This was far less a
threat than a promise to at least try to attain certain twisted goals.
: > >So if this person carries out his or her threat, is it because of the cancel
: > >message sent for his or her message or because of all the cancels ever
: > >sent out for his or her messages?
: > It is because he was deprived of his freedom of speech.
<http://www.dejanews.com/getdoc.xp?AN=353712948&fmt=raw>
========================================================================
<http://38.192.155.4/>
Notice
Thank You,
Webmaster
- --
David Ritz <dr...@primenet.com> Finger for PGP Public Keys
Fight against spam & spammers. http://spam.abuse.net
Outlaw Junk Email. ++++++ Join CAUCE ++++++ http://www.cauce.org
** Be kind to animals. - Kiss a shark. **
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========= WAS CANCELLED BY =======:
Path: ...!sunqbc.risq.qc.ca!news3.bellglobal.com!news1.bellglobal.com!198.235.216.4.POSTED!not-for-mail
Message-ID: <cholrqqeoy.Pine.BSI.3.96....@usr10.primenet.com>
Supersedes: <Pine.BSI.3.96.980801...@usr10.primenet.com>
Subject: Re: [LONG] Re: GOING TO DESTROY NEWSGROUPS
From: David Ritz <dr...@primenet.com>
Newsgroups: news.admin.net-abuse.usenet
X-No-Archive: Yes
Lines: 2
Date: Sun, 02 Aug 1998 11:40:54 GMT
NNTP-Posting-Host: 205.201.40.13
NNTP-Posting-Date: Sun, 02 Aug 1998 07:40:54 EDT
Organization: Bell Solutions
Supersede.
David Ritz
On Mon, 27 Jul 1998, Dave Hayes wrote:
: Henrietta Thomas wrote:
: > In news.admin.net-abuse.usenet on Mon, 27 Jul 1998 08:36:33 +0000, Dave Hayes
: > <da...@jetcafe.org> wrote:
: > >no.email.add...@none444.yet wrote:
: > >> HERE IS THE DEAL. IF ONE MORE MESSAGE OF MINE IS
: > >>CANCELLED I WILL RUIN THE NEWSGROUPS.
: > >
: > >Oh look. Another terrorist threat.
: >
: > Not funny.
:
: I'm sorry your sense of humor does not automatically engage upon
: reading messages like the one I responded to. It appears your sense
: of irony doesn't either. Oh well. :)
Considering this ne'er-do-well launched a supersedes attack on this
newsgroup last week, I am not amused either. This was far less a
threat than a promise to at least try to attain certain twisted goals.
: > >So if this person carries out his or her threat, is it because of the cancel
: > >message sent for his or her message or because of all the cancels ever
: > >sent out for his or her messages?
: > It is because he was deprived of his freedom of speech.
<http://www.dejanews.com/getdoc.xp?AN=353712948&fmt=raw>
========================================================================
<http://38.192.155.4/>
Notice
Thank You,
Webmaster
- --
David Ritz <dr...@primenet.com> Finger for PGP Public Keys
Fight against spam & spammers. http://spam.abuse.net
Outlaw Junk Email. ++++++ Join CAUCE ++++++ http://www.cauce.org
** Be kind to animals. - Kiss a shark. **
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Message-ID: <cholrqqeoy.Pine.BSI.3.96....@usr10.primenet.com>
Supersedes: <Pine.BSI.3.96.980801...@usr10.primenet.com>
Subject: Re: [LONG] Re: GOING TO DESTROY NEWSGROUPS
From: David Ritz <dr...@primenet.com>
Newsgroups: news.admin.net-abuse.usenet
X-No-Archive: Yes
Lines: 2
Date: Sun, 02 Aug 1998 11:40:54 GMT
NNTP-Posting-Host: 205.201.40.13
NNTP-Posting-Date: Sun, 02 Aug 1998 07:40:54 EDT
Organization: Bell Solutions
Supersede.
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From: David Ritz <dr...@primenet.com>
Newsgroups: news.admin.net-abuse.usenet,alt.2600
Subject: cmsg cancel <REPOST-4204.87167358398.Pine.BSI...@usr10.primenet.com>
Control: cancel <REPOST-4204.87167358398.Pine.BSI...@usr10.primenet.com>
Date: 4 Aug 1998 01:12:15 GMT
Organization: OzEmail Ltd.
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NNTP-Posting-Host: 203.26.5.3
X-No-Archive: Yes
Cancel.
Dave Hayes
> On Mon, 27 Jul 1998, Dave Hayes wrote:
> : Henrietta Thomas wrote:
> : > In news.admin.net-abuse.usenet on Mon, 27 Jul 1998 08:36:33 +0000, Dave Hayes
> : > <da...@jetcafe.org> wrote:
> : > >no.email.add...@none444.yet wrote:
> : > >> HERE IS THE DEAL. IF ONE MORE MESSAGE OF MINE IS
> : > >>CANCELLED I WILL RUIN THE NEWSGROUPS.
> : > >
> : > >Oh look. Another terrorist threat.
> : >
> : > Not funny.
> :
> : I'm sorry your sense of humor does not automatically engage upon
> : reading messages like the one I responded to. It appears your sense
> : of irony doesn't either. Oh well. :)
>
> Considering this ne'er-do-well launched a supersedes attack on this
> newsgroup last week, I am not amused either.
Perhaps you should be? No sense in stressing over something you claim
is a bad thing, eh?
> : > >So if this person carries out his or her threat, is it because of the cancel
> : > >message sent for his or her message or because of all the cancels ever
> : > >sent out for his or her messages?
> : > It is because he was deprived of his freedom of speech.
> :
> : Yep. That would cause a reaction like this.
>
> Good guess, Dave, but you're a little off base, as usual. Mr.
> Gartman's rant, followed by the supersedes attack, were directly
> related to his ConquerNet C-block turning to scotched earth. Nothing
> I nor anyone else did contributed to this happening.
Eh? I'd say his Class C being screwed is being deprived of his freedom
of speech, since at that point he may not be able to post or email.
Whether you or anyone else you know did something to make that happen
is irrelavent to his being deprived of his speech.
> Personally, I don't give a flying fuck in hell what Tom Gartman is
> selling or what he has to say. I do, however, object strenuously to
> his apparent need to say what ever it is 250000 times a month,
Then filter him out. *shrug* It's better than straining yourself
over your objections.
> If you raise the specter of censorship, you'd damn well better to be
> ready to defend the wanton disregard to other's speech exhibited by
> this and every other greed driven miscreant who has buried the
> newsgroups they're defecating in so deeply in pink manure that there
> is no chance, what so ever, for anyone to speak, let alone be heard.
I've addressed this point before. First of all, no one user should be
allowed to post more than a certain amount of messages. Beyond that,
anything else is fair game.
Your anger clouds your reason. Take a deep breath and come back to
see what has been said, ok?
> When you are honored by the ACLU for your defense of the First
> Amendment, let me know. You're trying to pull your crap on a long
> time civil libertarian who understands just how empty the nonsense you
> spout is.
It is illogical that you should say this when you consider my spouting
"empty nonsense". Why are you even talking to me?
> Give it a rest Dave. I, for one, am bored to tears by the constant
> cyclic arguments you are particularly fond of bandying about.
Then continue to be bored.
> You called me a liar in public, while having no evidence to back you
> up.
I did? I believe it usually goes "I do not know that you are who you
say you are, and this is not meant to say you are untrustworthy".
If you expect me to trust you just because you pontificate emotively,
you'll be disappointed each time.
> I didn't publicly rub your nose in it, when I presented my
> evidence to you privately. I suggest you take a little time thinking
> before you try libeling me again. As things stand now, its not my
> credibility which should be called to question.
I don't want any credibility. If you don't find out for yourself that
what I say is or is not true, then don't attach any meaning at all.
> : > Read the report below to find out the type of speech this man in famous for.
> :
> : Nowhere is there proof that the person who posted the above is, in
> : fact, the same person referenced below. Nor is there any way of
> : checking the report's validity. *shrug*
>
> Say, Dave, the report was genuine. So am I. If you can prove or even
> present evidence to the contrary, please do so. If not, bite me.
You have the burden of proof, not me. *shrug*
And I don't bite. So be disappointed again.
> You'll find my published research to be largely beyond reproach. Only
> once in the past couple of years have I mistaken a clever forgery for
> the genuine article when filing a report. As I am a man of scruples,
> I immediately sent out a correction, not only exonerating the
> implicated individual, but demonstrating how and where the forgeries
> had taken place.
If you were really a man of scruples, you would stop filing reports
and judging others. If there is a standard of "scruples" you are
proffering that is different from this, I am not aware of it.
> I'm sorry you'll have a hard time verifying the following message.
> Life is tough, sometimes. It seems the listed URL is no longer
> reachable. Your inability to access the listed URL does not change,
> in any way, the factual content of this message, posted by Tom Gartman
> on one of his now slagged websites.
Even if I could access this, I have no guarantee that the person posting
the article is the same person as you think it is. I have -no- way of
verifying any poster's identity, since even a static IP may have another
human posting from it than the intended one. What part of this do you not
understand?
--
Dave Hayes - Altadena CA, USA - da...@jetcafe.org
>>> The opinions expressed above are entirely my own <<<
Freedom Knight of Usenet - http://www.jetcafe.org/~dave/usenet
"If there is intellegent life in outer space, then they are undoubtedly
using Earth as their insane asylum." -Mark Twain
Henrietta Thomas
Dave Hayes <da...@jetcafe.org> wrote:
>David Ritz wrote:
>> On Mon, 27 Jul 1998, Dave Hayes wrote:
>> : Henrietta Thomas wrote:
>> : > In news.admin.net-abuse.usenet on Mon, 27 Jul 1998 08:36:33 +0000, Dave Hayes
>> : > <da...@jetcafe.org> wrote:
[snip]....
>> : > >So if this person carries out his or her threat, is it because of the cancel
>> : > >message sent for his or her message or because of all the cancels ever
>> : > >sent out for his or her messages?
>> : > It is because he was deprived of his freedom of speech.
>> :
>> : Yep. That would cause a reaction like this.
>>
>> Good guess, Dave, but you're a little off base, as usual. Mr.
>> Gartman's rant, followed by the supersedes attack, were directly
>> related to his ConquerNet C-block turning to scotched earth. Nothing
>> I nor anyone else did contributed to this happening.
>
>Eh? I'd say his Class C being screwed is being deprived of his freedom
>of speech, since at that point he may not be able to post or email.
>Whether you or anyone else you know did something to make that happen
>is irrelavent to his being deprived of his speech.
Loss of access to the net = denial of free speech
Hmmmmmmm......
I will have to think on that.
Emile Durkheim
=
-David Ritz wrote:
-> On Mon, 27 Jul 1998, Dave Hayes wrote:
-> : Henrietta Thomas wrote:
-> : > >no.email.add...@none444.yet wrote:
-> : > >> HERE IS THE DEAL. IF ONE MORE MESSAGE OF MINE IS
-> : > >>CANCELLED I WILL RUIN THE NEWSGROUPS.
-> : > >
-> : > >Oh look. Another terrorist threat.
-> : >
-> : > Not funny.
-> :
-> : I'm sorry your sense of humor does not automatically engage upon
-> : reading messages like the one I responded to. It appears your sense
-> : of irony doesn't either. Oh well. :)
->
-> Considering this ne'er-do-well launched a supersedes attack on this
-> newsgroup last week, I am not amused either.
I don't think the purpose was to amuse you but I may be wrong on
that.
-Perhaps you should be? No sense in stressing over something you claim
-is a bad thing, eh?
-
Well there are many amusing elements to this whole thing. For example
in one breath they'll say how irrelevant the HC software is yet in the very
next they're expressing all sorts of frustration and threats. Obviously
can't be both.
-> : > >So if this person carries out his or her threat, is it because of the cancel
-> : > >message sent for his or her message or because of all the cancels ever
-> : > >sent out for his or her messages?
-> : > It is because he was deprived of his freedom of speech.
-> :
-> : Yep. That would cause a reaction like this.
->
-> Good guess, Dave, but you're a little off base, as usual. Mr.
-> Gartman's rant, followed by the supersedes attack, were directly
-> related to his ConquerNet C-block turning to scotched earth. Nothing
-> I nor anyone else did contributed to this happening.
-
-Eh? I'd say his Class C being screwed is being deprived of his freedom
-of speech, since at that point he may not be able to post or email.
-Whether you or anyone else you know did something to make that happen
-is irrelavent to his being deprived of his speech.
But he doesn't value the guys free speech--with the cabal they
believe only the select are entitled to freely express themselves.
-> Personally, I don't give a flying fuck in hell what Tom Gartman is
-> selling or what he has to say. I do, however, object strenuously to
-> his apparent need to say what ever it is 250000 times a month,
-
-Then filter him out. *shrug* It's better than straining yourself
-over your objections.
He's probably got hemeroids at this point.
Steve
news.admin.censorship
-
-> If you raise the specter of censorship, you'd damn well better to be
-> ready to defend the wanton disregard to other's speech exhibited by
-> this and every other greed driven miscreant who has buried the
-> newsgroups they're defecating in so deeply in pink manure that there
-> is no chance, what so ever, for anyone to speak, let alone be heard.
-
-I've addressed this point before. First of all, no one user should be
-allowed to post more than a certain amount of messages. Beyond that,
-anything else is fair game.
-
-Your anger clouds your reason. Take a deep breath and come back to
-see what has been said, ok?
-
-> When you are honored by the ACLU for your defense of the First
-> Amendment, let me know. You're trying to pull your crap on a long
-> time civil libertarian who understands just how empty the nonsense you
-> spout is.
-
-It is illogical that you should say this when you consider my spouting
-"empty nonsense". Why are you even talking to me?
-
-> Give it a rest Dave. I, for one, am bored to tears by the constant
-> cyclic arguments you are particularly fond of bandying about.
-
-Then continue to be bored.
-
-> You called me a liar in public, while having no evidence to back you
-> up.
-
-I did? I believe it usually goes "I do not know that you are who you
-say you are, and this is not meant to say you are untrustworthy".
-If you expect me to trust you just because you pontificate emotively,
-you'll be disappointed each time.
-
-> I didn't publicly rub your nose in it, when I presented my
-> evidence to you privately. I suggest you take a little time thinking
-> before you try libeling me again. As things stand now, its not my
-> credibility which should be called to question.
-
-I don't want any credibility. If you don't find out for yourself that
-what I say is or is not true, then don't attach any meaning at all.
-
-> : > Read the report below to find out the type of speech this man in famous for.
-> :
-> : Nowhere is there proof that the person who posted the above is, in
-> : fact, the same person referenced below. Nor is there any way of
-> : checking the report's validity. *shrug*
->
-> Say, Dave, the report was genuine. So am I. If you can prove or even
-> present evidence to the contrary, please do so. If not, bite me.
-
-You have the burden of proof, not me. *shrug*
-
-And I don't bite. So be disappointed again.
-
-> You'll find my published research to be largely beyond reproach. Only
-> once in the past couple of years have I mistaken a clever forgery for
-> the genuine article when filing a report. As I am a man of scruples,
-> I immediately sent out a correction, not only exonerating the
-> implicated individual, but demonstrating how and where the forgeries
-> had taken place.
-
-If you were really a man of scruples, you would stop filing reports
-and judging others. If there is a standard of "scruples" you are
-proffering that is different from this, I am not aware of it.
-
-> I'm sorry you'll have a hard time verifying the following message.
-> Life is tough, sometimes. It seems the listed URL is no longer
-> reachable. Your inability to access the listed URL does not change,
-> in any way, the factual content of this message, posted by Tom Gartman
-> on one of his now slagged websites.
-
-Even if I could access this, I have no guarantee that the person posting
-the article is the same person as you think it is. I have -no- way of
-verifying any poster's identity, since even a static IP may have another
-human posting from it than the intended one. What part of this do you not
-understand?
Edgar Degas
->> On Mon, 27 Jul 1998, Dave Hayes wrote:
->> : Henrietta Thomas wrote:
->> : > <da...@jetcafe.org> wrote:
-
-[snip]....
-
->> : > >So if this person carries out his or her threat, is it because of the cancel
->> : > >message sent for his or her message or because of all the cancels ever
->> : > >sent out for his or her messages?
->> : > It is because he was deprived of his freedom of speech.
->> :
->> : Yep. That would cause a reaction like this.
->>
->> Good guess, Dave, but you're a little off base, as usual. Mr.
->> Gartman's rant, followed by the supersedes attack, were directly
->> related to his ConquerNet C-block turning to scotched earth. Nothing
->> I nor anyone else did contributed to this happening.
->
->Eh? I'd say his Class C being screwed is being deprived of his freedom
->of speech, since at that point he may not be able to post or email.
->Whether you or anyone else you know did something to make that happen
->is irrelavent to his being deprived of his speech.
-
-Loss of access to the net = denial of free speech
-
-Hmmmmmmm......
-
-I will have to think on that.
And that's rather sad actually. A guys plug is pulled and you have
to 'think on that'???
Steve
news.admin.censorship
Timothy J. Miller
> Eh? I'd say his Class C being screwed is being deprived of his freedom
> of speech, since at that point he may not be able to post or email.
Dave you *really* should do some reading on First Ammendment
law. Denial of a particular avenue for speech does *not* abrogate First
Ammendment rights so long as alternative avenues exist to acheive the
same effect. Since any spammer may reach his target audience via bulk US
Post or telemarketing, denial of the use of these *privately-owned
resources* (a.k.a. mail and news servers) does *not* deprive any of them
of their First Ammendment rights.
Read Cyberpromo v. AOL at the very least. This is set forward
*very* clearly there, so you obviously haven't read the decisions.
--
Cerebus <tmi...@ibm.net>
"No one's jumped off the top of the [Windows] building here, so I guess
that's a pretty good indicator that it can't be all that bad."
-- Rob Bennett, Microsoft group product manager.
Joe We are Borg Foster
> In news.admin.net-abuse.usenet on Mon, 03 Aug 1998 08:38:15 +0000,
> Dave Hayes <da...@jetcafe.org> wrote:
> >Eh? I'd say his Class C being screwed is being deprived of his freedom
> >of speech, since at that point he may not be able to post or email.
> >Whether you or anyone else you know did something to make that happen
> >is irrelavent to his being deprived of his speech.
> Loss of access to the net = denial of free speech
> Hmmmmmmm......
> I will have to think on that.
I just did, and it's not pretty. It would mean that the Gimme
must provide everyone with s/h/its own news server and OC3 at
taxpayer expense, since spam is also frea speach! And a printing
press! Sound trucks for everybody! <shudder>
--
Joe Foster <mailto:jfo...@ricochet.net> or <mailto:j...@bftsi0.gate.net>
WARNING: I cannot be held responsible for the above They're coming to
because my cats have apparently learned to type. take me away, ha ha!
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From: j...@bftsi0.UUCP (Joe "We are Borg" Foster)
Newsgroups: news.admin.net-abuse.usenet,alt.2600
Subject: cmsg cancel <11...@bftsi0.UUCP>
Control: cancel <11...@bftsi0.UUCP>
Date: 4 Aug 1998 00:39:14 GMT
Organization: OzEmail Ltd.
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Message-ID: <ukgcljub...@bftsi0.UUCP>
Henrietta Thomas
Dave Hayes <da...@jetcafe.org> wrote:
>David Ritz wrote:
>> On Mon, 27 Jul 1998, Dave Hayes wrote:
>> : Henrietta Thomas wrote:
>> : > In news.admin.net-abuse.usenet on Mon, 27 Jul 1998 08:36:33 +0000, Dave Hayes
>> : > <da...@jetcafe.org> wrote:
[snip]....
>> : > >So if this person carries out his or her threat, is it because of the cancel
>> : > >message sent for his or her message or because of all the cancels ever
>> : > >sent out for his or her messages?
>> : > It is because he was deprived of his freedom of speech.
>> :
>> : Yep. That would cause a reaction like this.
>>
>> Good guess, Dave, but you're a little off base, as usual. Mr.
>> Gartman's rant, followed by the supersedes attack, were directly
>> related to his ConquerNet C-block turning to scotched earth. Nothing
>> I nor anyone else did contributed to this happening.
>
>Eh? I'd say his Class C being screwed is being deprived of his freedom
>of speech, since at that point he may not be able to post or email.
>Whether you or anyone else you know did something to make that happen
>is irrelavent to his being deprived of his speech.
Loss of access to the net = denial of free speech
Hmmmmmmm......
I will have to think on that.
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From: h...@wwa.com (Henrietta Thomas)
Newsgroups: news.admin.net-abuse.usenet,alt.2600
Subject: cmsg cancel <35c59205...@news.wwa.com>
Control: cancel <35c59205...@news.wwa.com>
Date: 4 Aug 1998 00:45:30 GMT
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Message-ID: <jflyfhikwh.35...@news.wwa.com>
Dave Hayes
> On Mon, 27 Jul 1998, Dave Hayes wrote:
> : Henrietta Thomas wrote:
> : > In news.admin.net-abuse.usenet on Mon, 27 Jul 1998 08:36:33 +0000, Dave Hayes
> : > <da...@jetcafe.org> wrote:
> : > >no.email.add...@none444.yet wrote:
> : > >> HERE IS THE DEAL. IF ONE MORE MESSAGE OF MINE IS
> : > >>CANCELLED I WILL RUIN THE NEWSGROUPS.
> : > >
> : > >Oh look. Another terrorist threat.
> : >
> : > Not funny.
> :
> : I'm sorry your sense of humor does not automatically engage upon
> : reading messages like the one I responded to. It appears your sense
> : of irony doesn't either. Oh well. :)
>
> Considering this ne'er-do-well launched a supersedes attack on this
> newsgroup last week, I am not amused either.
Perhaps you should be? No sense in stressing over something you claim
is a bad thing, eh?
> : > >So if this person carries out his or her threat, is it because of the cancel
> : > >message sent for his or her message or because of all the cancels ever
> : > >sent out for his or her messages?
> : > It is because he was deprived of his freedom of speech.
> :
> : Yep. That would cause a reaction like this.
>
> Good guess, Dave, but you're a little off base, as usual. Mr.
> Gartman's rant, followed by the supersedes attack, were directly
> related to his ConquerNet C-block turning to scotched earth. Nothing
> I nor anyone else did contributed to this happening.
Eh? I'd say his Class C being screwed is being deprived of his freedom
of speech, since at that point he may not be able to post or email.
Whether you or anyone else you know did something to make that happen
is irrelavent to his being deprived of his speech.
> Personally, I don't give a flying fuck in hell what Tom Gartman is
> selling or what he has to say. I do, however, object strenuously to
> his apparent need to say what ever it is 250000 times a month,
Then filter him out. *shrug* It's better than straining yourself
over your objections.
> If you raise the specter of censorship, you'd damn well better to be
> ready to defend the wanton disregard to other's speech exhibited by
> this and every other greed driven miscreant who has buried the
> newsgroups they're defecating in so deeply in pink manure that there
> is no chance, what so ever, for anyone to speak, let alone be heard.
I've addressed this point before. First of all, no one user should be
allowed to post more than a certain amount of messages. Beyond that,
anything else is fair game.
Your anger clouds your reason. Take a deep breath and come back to
see what has been said, ok?
> When you are honored by the ACLU for your defense of the First
> Amendment, let me know. You're trying to pull your crap on a long
> time civil libertarian who understands just how empty the nonsense you
> spout is.
It is illogical that you should say this when you consider my spouting
"empty nonsense". Why are you even talking to me?
> Give it a rest Dave. I, for one, am bored to tears by the constant
> cyclic arguments you are particularly fond of bandying about.
Then continue to be bored.
> You called me a liar in public, while having no evidence to back you
> up.
I did? I believe it usually goes "I do not know that you are who you
say you are, and this is not meant to say you are untrustworthy".
If you expect me to trust you just because you pontificate emotively,
you'll be disappointed each time.
> I didn't publicly rub your nose in it, when I presented my
> evidence to you privately. I suggest you take a little time thinking
> before you try libeling me again. As things stand now, its not my
> credibility which should be called to question.
I don't want any credibility. If you don't find out for yourself that
what I say is or is not true, then don't attach any meaning at all.
> : > Read the report below to find out the type of speech this man in famous for.
> :
> : Nowhere is there proof that the person who posted the above is, in
> : fact, the same person referenced below. Nor is there any way of
> : checking the report's validity. *shrug*
>
> Say, Dave, the report was genuine. So am I. If you can prove or even
> present evidence to the contrary, please do so. If not, bite me.
You have the burden of proof, not me. *shrug*
And I don't bite. So be disappointed again.
> You'll find my published research to be largely beyond reproach. Only
> once in the past couple of years have I mistaken a clever forgery for
> the genuine article when filing a report. As I am a man of scruples,
> I immediately sent out a correction, not only exonerating the
> implicated individual, but demonstrating how and where the forgeries
> had taken place.
If you were really a man of scruples, you would stop filing reports
and judging others. If there is a standard of "scruples" you are
proffering that is different from this, I am not aware of it.
> I'm sorry you'll have a hard time verifying the following message.
> Life is tough, sometimes. It seems the listed URL is no longer
> reachable. Your inability to access the listed URL does not change,
> in any way, the factual content of this message, posted by Tom Gartman
> on one of his now slagged websites.
Even if I could access this, I have no guarantee that the person posting
the article is the same person as you think it is. I have -no- way of
verifying any poster's identity, since even a static IP may have another
human posting from it than the intended one. What part of this do you not
understand?
--
Dave Hayes - Altadena CA, USA - da...@jetcafe.org
>>> The opinions expressed above are entirely my own <<<
Freedom Knight of Usenet - http://www.jetcafe.org/~dave/usenet
"If there is intellegent life in outer space, then they are undoubtedly
using Earth as their insane asylum." -Mark Twain
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From: Dave Hayes <da...@jetcafe.org>
Newsgroups: news.admin.net-abuse.usenet,alt.2600
Subject: cmsg cancel <35C576F7...@jetcafe.org>
Control: cancel <35C576F7...@jetcafe.org>
Date: 4 Aug 1998 00:48:35 GMT
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Sandy Harris
>Eh? I'd say his Class C being screwed is being deprived of his freedom
>of speech, since at that point he may not be able to post or email.
Yes.
>Whether you or anyone else you know did something to make that happen
>is irrelavent to his being deprived of his speech.
Right again.
What is relevant is his own behaviour. If he was spamming, violating the
contract that gave him his connectivity, and got disconnected for it, then
he's deprived himself & neither he nor you have anything to moan about.
Lysander Spooner
wrote:
>Nope. That doesn't follow per se. However, if someone loses their
>access to the net, they can no longer speak on the net, hence they
>lose their free speech.
Why don't you give them access at jetcafe?
-- Rick
-----------
** Property isn't god, is it? **
pavanas abludo incusus
Dave Hayes <da...@jetcafe.org> mused and hath written:
trimmage
>People didn't understand this when I pointed to it long ago, I don't expect
>people to understand it now. I do expect they will understand it once it has
>been destroyed, but only in retrospect.
>
Define communication in respect to welcome use of private property.
>:(
>--
>Dave Hayes - Altadena CA, USA - da...@jetcafe.org
> >>> The opinions expressed above are entirely my own <<<
>Freedom Knight of Usenet - http://www.jetcafe.org/~dave/usenet
>
>Truth (n.) - the most deadly weapon ever discovered by humanity. Capable
>of destroying entire perceptual sets, cultures, and realities. Outlawed
>by all governments everywhere. Possession is normally punishable by death.
Truth is only relevant in respect to a standard that what is and what is
not truth can be compared against. The standard must be greater than one's
need of self-preservation.
--
IHS,
pavanas
Those are free from fear who have done no wrong; but those who
have sinned have always the dread of punishment before their eyes.
pavanas abludo incusus
Dave Hayes <da...@jetcafe.org> mused and hath written:
>Timothy J. Miller wrote:
>> Dave Hayes <da...@jetcafe.org> writes:
>> > Eh? I'd say his Class C being screwed is being deprived of his freedom
>> > of speech, since at that point he may not be able to post or email.
>> Dave you *really* should do some reading on First Ammendment
>> law.
>
>Why? I wasn't speaking of law, I was speaking of pre-existing conditions.
Then the pre-existing conditions were lawless?
>If you have access to the net, you can speak there.
Provided that the owners of the resources that enable this ability `to
speak' so permit and condone said abilty whether covertly or overtly.
>If you do not have access to the net, you cannot speak there, thus you
>lose your freedom to speak.
This does violence to the concept of privilege granted of useage of shared
privately owned resources. Owning the equipmentage necessary to gain
access to this place where you can `speak' does not include a
non-revokable guarantee that said access will be both unfettered and
unrestricted. It is a human custom to respect the property of others. It
is part and parcel of being human. Whensoever this custom is sorely
violated the property owners can seek redress and estoppel.
>--
>Dave Hayes - Altadena CA, USA - da...@jetcafe.org
> >>> The opinions expressed above are entirely my own <<<
>Freedom Knight of Usenet - http://www.jetcafe.org/~dave/usenet
>
>Obstacles are those terrible things you see when you take your eyes off
>your goal.
Indeed.
Lysander Spooner
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From: buch...@cybernex.net (Lysander Spooner)
Newsgroups: news.admin.net-abuse.usenet
Subject: cmsg sendsys
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References: <250798...@none444.yet> <35BC3C11...@jetcafe.org> <35c59205...@news.wwa.com> <11...@bftsi0.UUCP> <35CD023D...@jetcafe.org>
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ppls dxo fols
mml ruvn bj
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Lysander Spooner
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From: buch...@cybernex.net (Lysander Spooner)
Date: 20 Aug 1998 16:08:50 GMT
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Dr John
-
->What is relevant is his own behaviour. If he was spamming, violating the
->contract that gave him his connectivity, and got disconnected for it, then
->he's deprived himself & neither he nor you have anything to moan about.
-
-As I did so long ago, let me spell this out for you again.
It won't do much good as far as Harris is concerned--thick skull and all.
-If someone, somewhere, does not guarantee the freedom of speech of other
-people, eventually the ranks of those people will continue to grow until they
-have enough might and muscle and discontent to force their access or destroy
-the net in trying.
Well I'd much rather see the entire medium destroyed rather than allow a
censorous shitbag like Harris have a say about anything but himself.
-This is already happening, as we post.
-
-You simply cannot hook up a worldwide many-to-many communications medium,
-deny certain people access based on arbitrary standards (whatever they are),
Arbitrary on a good day. The most amusing part lately has been in
the indignation over who gets to issue cancels on others posts or
who can use open servers--talk about double standards!
-and then expect the medium to continue to exist. It may last a while, but eventually
-it will be destroyed. The -only- way to avoid this is to guarantee -each-
-and -every- person the ability to use the medium to communicate.
-
-People didn't understand this when I pointed to it long ago, I don't expect
-people to understand it now. I do expect they will understand it once it has
-been destroyed, but only in retrospect.
-
-:(
The only thing about your statement that puzzles me Dave is your
frown sign :(. It's not something to be sad about--let the property
as god types choke on their processors.
:)
Steve
news.admin.censorship
Lysander Spooner
wrote:
>Dave Hayes <da...@jetcafe.org> wrote:
> -If someone, somewhere, does not guarantee the freedom of speech of other
> -people, eventually the ranks of those people will continue to grow until they
> -have enough might and muscle and discontent to force their access or destroy
> -the net in trying.
>
> Well I'd much rather see the entire medium destroyed rather than allow a
>censorous shitbag like Harris have a say about anything but himself.
Then there's a problem, since I'd much rather see the entire medium
destroyed before I'd allow a socialist thug like you use terrorism to
force people to use their equipment the way _you_ demand.
> Arbitrary on a good day. The most amusing part lately has been in
>the indignation over who gets to issue cancels on others posts or
Anybody can cancel posts. That has been demonstrated. The difference
is that when some cancel posts our service providers say thank you,
and when some cancel posts your providers cut you off. Take the hint.
> -People didn't understand this when I pointed to it long ago, I don't expect
> -people to understand it now. I do expect they will understand it once it has
> -been destroyed, but only in retrospect.
> -
> -:(
>
> The only thing about your statement that puzzles me Dave is your
>frown sign :(. It's not something to be sad about--let the property
>as god types choke on their processors.
I guess you don't see the irony of saying that to a guy who charges
US$500.00 for access to his processor, huh?
Stephen, I know a guy who invested most of his savings into starting
up a small ISP about six months ago. After paying circuit costs,
equipment leases, rent and payroll, he's barely running in the black.
Still, he waives the monthly fee for the local parochial schools and
provides free webspace to a local charities.
Now, explain to me again why he should have to buy lots more bandwidth
and a bigger faster news-server in order to receive and store
thousands of identical copies of ads from Tom Gartman -- a guy who
makes 400k/yr?
Oh yeah, because if he doesn't, you Grubor and HipocritCrime will keep
attacking him and his server until he does! How silly of me to
forget.
-- Rick
--------------
** You suck **
Lysander Spooner
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From: buch...@cybernex.net (Lysander Spooner)
Newsgroups: news.admin.net-abuse.usenet
Subject: cmsg sendsys
Control: sendsys
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Date: 18 Aug 1998 14:39:38 GMT
Organization: Delphi Internet Services <http://www.delphi.com/>
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Dave Hayes
> On Tue, 18 Aug 1998 11:13:47 GMT, drj...@anutha.zone.mus (Dr John) wrote:
> >Dave Hayes <da...@jetcafe.org> wrote:
> > -If someone, somewhere, does not guarantee the freedom of speech of other
> > -people, eventually the ranks of those people will continue to grow until they
> > -have enough might and muscle and discontent to force their access or destroy
> > -the net in trying.
> >
> > Well I'd much rather see the entire medium destroyed rather than allow a
> >censorous shitbag like Harris have a say about anything but himself.
>
> Then there's a problem, since I'd much rather see the entire medium
> destroyed before I'd allow a socialist thug like you use terrorism to
> force people to use their equipment the way _you_ demand.
Now -there's- a case that you can make a choice from. Yessir. Do I want
socalized force making me spend money or do I want some private club of
rich people telling me who I can and cannot talk to?
Can't you suggest a third alternative? I don't like either that you
seem to suggest.
> Stephen, I know a guy who invested most of his savings into starting
> up a small ISP about six months ago. After paying circuit costs,
> equipment leases, rent and payroll, he's barely running in the black.
> Still, he waives the monthly fee for the local parochial schools and
> provides free webspace to a local charities.
Aww gee. "Parochial school" and "charity" are supposed icons of "good",
but without knowing the specifics you might as well say "Nazist school"
and "leech organization".
But I digress...
> Now, explain to me again why he should have to buy lots more bandwidth
> and a bigger faster news-server in order to receive and store
> thousands of identical copies of ads from Tom Gartman -- a guy who
> makes 400k/yr?
If he wants to be a full-feed site, it has nothing to do with Mr. Gartman.
If he doesn't, technological means can prevent Mr. Gartman from exceeding
his "alloted" portion of bandwidth.
> ** You suck **
Why does this statement impress me with your ability to see beyond the
obvious?
--
Dave Hayes - Altadena CA, USA - da...@jetcafe.org
>>> The opinions expressed above are entirely my own <<<
Freedom Knight of Usenet - http://www.jetcafe.org/~dave/usenet
Regally the waves were hurling themselves upon the rocks, each deep blue
curve crested by whitest foam. Seeing this sight for the first time, Nasrudin
was momentarily overwhelmed. Then he went and took a little water in his hand
and tasted it. "Why," said the Mulla, "to think that something with such
pretensions is not worth drinking."
Timothy J. Miller
> Can't you suggest a third alternative? I don't like either that you
> seem to suggest.
Yeah-- we turn them all *off*. Where's your medium then?
--
Cerebus <tmi...@ibm.net>
"Although UNIX is more reliable, NT may become more reliable with time"
-- Ron Redman, deputy technical director of the Fleet Introduction
Dave Hayes
> Dave Hayes <da...@jetcafe.org> mused and hath written:
> >Timothy J. Miller wrote:
> >> Dave Hayes <da...@jetcafe.org> writes:
> >> > of speech, since at that point he may not be able to post or email.
> >> law.
> >
> >Why? I wasn't speaking of law, I was speaking of pre-existing conditions.
>
> Then the pre-existing conditions were lawless?
Yep.
> >If you have access to the net, you can speak there.
>
> Provided that the owners of the resources that enable this ability `to
> speak' so permit and condone said abilty whether covertly or overtly.
If they don't, the net loses usefulness as a communications medium and
becomes a private club.
> >If you do not have access to the net, you cannot speak there, thus you
> >lose your freedom to speak.
>
> This does violence to the concept of privilege granted of useage of shared
> privately owned resources.
That concept does violence to the concept of a worldwide many-to-many
human communications medium.
--
Dave Hayes - Altadena CA, USA - da...@jetcafe.org
>>> The opinions expressed above are entirely my own <<<
Freedom Knight of Usenet - http://www.jetcafe.org/~dave/usenet
"The most effective killfile is your own brain." --Russ Allbery
pavanas abludo incusus
Timothy J. Miller <tmi...@ibm.net> mused and hath written:
>Dave Hayes <da...@jetcafe.org> writes:
>
>> Can't you suggest a third alternative? I don't like either that you
>> seem to suggest.
>
> Yeah-- we turn them all *off*. Where's your medium then?
>
brzzzt wrong answer... The operative concept being you have no say
whatsoever in how they so choose to abuse/mis-use/trash/trash and
otherwise render your equipment useless because they are only exercising
their (eventhough most are not believers in a power higher than self) ghod
given *RIGHT* to free speech. Got it? They do. You want it?
>--
>Cerebus <tmi...@ibm.net>
>"Although UNIX is more reliable, NT may become more reliable with time"
> -- Ron Redman, deputy technical director of the Fleet Introduction
I doubt that many of us will be alive when that time arrives or if we
are yet living, be too busy re-installing to notice.
pavanas abludo incusus
Dave Hayes <da...@jetcafe.org> mused and hath written:
>pavanas abludo incusus wrote:
>> Dave Hayes <da...@jetcafe.org> mused and hath written:
>If they don't, the net loses usefulness as a communications medium and
>becomes a private club.
>
ummm... Dave it is a private club. No access to access no speech. Or do
you believe that only those who have access are human? Where is this
going?
>> >If you do not have access to the net, you cannot speak there, thus you
>> >lose your freedom to speak.
>>
>> This does violence to the concept of privilege granted of useage of shared
>> privately owned resources.
>
>That concept does violence to the concept of a worldwide many-to-many
>human communications medium.
The concept as iterated above is an oxymoron. The nature of the
pre-existing requirments to gain access precludes the majority of the
humans living on the planet from partaking in said concept.
Is not true that the majority of the humans do not even have access to a
device as simple as a telephone? Or do you plan to empower them with
access complete with the hardware, software, and wiring infrastructure
necessary to bring all humans on the planet to this utopian concept?
>--
>Dave Hayes - Altadena CA, USA - da...@jetcafe.org
> >>> The opinions expressed above are entirely my own <<<
>Freedom Knight of Usenet - http://www.jetcafe.org/~dave/usenet
>
>"The most effective killfile is your own brain." --Russ Allbery
You mean setting the big red switch to 0?
Don Juneau
> pavanas abludo incusus wrote:
> > Dave Hayes <da...@jetcafe.org> mused and hath written:
> > >Timothy J. Miller wrote:
> > >
> > >If you have access to the net, you can speak there.
> >
> > Provided that the owners of the resources that enable this ability `to
> > speak' so permit and condone said abilty whether covertly or overtly.
>
> If they don't, the net loses usefulness as a communications medium and
> becomes a private club.
Gee, I've been in plenty of "private clubs" that are perfectly useful as a
communications medium... private BBSs, private mailing-lists...
What about the "hacks" list, Dave? A "private club" dedicated to removing
the "usefulness of the net as a communications medium"?
> > >If you do not have access to the net, you cannot speak there, thus you
> > >lose your freedom to speak.
> >
> > This does violence to the concept of privilege granted of useage of shared
> > privately owned resources.
>
> That concept does violence to the concept of a worldwide many-to-many
> human communications medium.
That concept does violence to the concept of a worldwide many-to-many
*human* *communications* medium. Repetitive multiposting spambots aren't
human, Dave. Repetitive cancelling/superceding abusebots aren't human,
Dave. Repetitive multiposted advertisements aren't communications, Dave.
Repetitive multiposted cancels/supercedes aren't communications, Dave.
You're a true philosopher, Dave... your philosophy appears more important
to you than the current, majority-opinion, application of the current
incarnation of Usenet. <shrug> Things change over time. Maybe I'm not
satisifed with the way things are. <shrug> Thing *is*, if I'm dissatisfied
I'll try and change things... *without* pulling everything apart to fit my
own personal philosophy/dream. If I had great communications skills, I'd
be out there trying to convert others... by giving them a taste of
something better, and reeling 'em in after they're hooked. (Instead of
enjoying my own personal Relampago <sp?> and philosophising about how my
philosophy isn't understandable except by someone in my particular state
of mind/rapture.) If I had great programming skills, I'd be out there
helping admins and end-users defeat abuse, thus making the 'Net all safe
and happy for *everyone*... well, except abusers. (And surely HypeCramp &
Company's little tantrums are abuse, right, Dave?)
Hmmm. If HypeCramp's "abuse against abuse" (as HC&Co. term it) campaign is
allowable, perhaps other "abuse against abuse" actions are? Say, if an
HC&Co. cancel/supercede fest is started, and the admins at the
injection-site are absent/incompetent, perhaps a "defensive" DoS is called
for, against that news-server only? "The good of the many outweighs the
good of the few." Of course, HC&Co.'s philosophy is "Fuck them all, burn
it down and we'll dance in the ashes!" (AKA "The good for us outweighs
the good for anyone else.")
C'mon, Dave. Stop HC&Co. from causing damage to the many-to-many human
communications medium. If you can pull it off, I'll bet people would start
listening to you. *If* you care about others listening to you. *If* you
care about the many-to-many communications medium. It's all-or-nothing,
babe, or you're just contemplating your navel due to lack of oxygen at
those rarefied heights...
Don
Rebecca Ore
>
> > >If you do not have access to the net, you cannot speak there, thus you
> > >lose your freedom to speak.
> >
> > This does violence to the concept of privilege granted of useage of shared
> > privately owned resources.
>
> That concept does violence to the concept of a worldwide many-to-many
> human communications medium.
Free Jetcafe. Death to the sendsys attackers and spammer who
cripple the worldwide many-to-many human communications medium
with robot drivel. Power to the people.
See, Rick, leftists can so have their hearts in the
right places.
--
Rebecca Ore
"Free Jetcafe now"
Don Juneau
<alt.censorship removed. nyaah.>
On Tue, 18 Aug 1998, Dave Hayes wrote:
> Lysander Spooner wrote:
> Now -there's- a case that you can make a choice from. Yessir. Do I want
> socalized force making me spend money or do I want some private club of
> rich people telling me who I can and cannot talk to?
> > Now, explain to me again why he should have to buy lots more bandwidth
> > and a bigger faster news-server in order to receive and store
> > thousands of identical copies of ads from Tom Gartman -- a guy who
> > makes 400k/yr?
>
> If he wants to be a full-feed site, it has nothing to do with Mr. Gartman.
Correct. If he wants to be a full-feed site. If he wishes to present a
usable many-to-many human communications medium, the abuses of Gartman and
his ilk make "full-feed site" much more difficult to achieve. Thus
neccesatating higher fees for use. Making it a "private club of rich
people". (Oh, and the abusers, who aren't interested in communication, but
becoming more rich or more abusive.)
> If he doesn't, technological means can prevent Mr. Gartman from exceeding
> his "alloted" portion of bandwidth.
Only if Gartman, et al, are willing to apply those technological means. If
they aren't willing to weasel around those technological means by any
possible loophole. I haven't seen Gartman, et al, willingly restricting
their useage to an "alloted" portion of bandwidth. I've rarely seen *any*
spammer willingly restricting their advertisements to an *accepted*
newsgroup/series of newsgroups. (If they *did* care about the many-to-many
human communications medium, they would use "alt.sex.services" and the
like - not alt.sex.cthulhu, alt.binaries.pictures.cartoons, or
alt.religion.santaism.)
Perhaps you're going to offer Gartman the use of Jetcafe for his next
account? Perhaps you're going to enforce those technological means?
Perhaps this would be a good demonstration of these capabilties?
Don
Lysander Spooner
wrote:
>Dave Hayes <da...@jetcafe.org> wrote:
> -If someone, somewhere, does not guarantee the freedom of speech of other
> -people, eventually the ranks of those people will continue to grow until they
> -have enough might and muscle and discontent to force their access or destroy
> -the net in trying.
>
> Well I'd much rather see the entire medium destroyed rather than allow a
>censorous shitbag like Harris have a say about anything but himself.
Then there's a problem, since I'd much rather see the entire medium
destroyed before I'd allow a socialist thug like you use terrorism to
force people to use their equipment the way _you_ demand.
> Arbitrary on a good day. The most amusing part lately has been in
>the indignation over who gets to issue cancels on others posts or
Anybody can cancel posts. That has been demonstrated. The difference
is that when some cancel posts our service providers say thank you,
and when some cancel posts your providers cut you off. Take the hint.
> -People didn't understand this when I pointed to it long ago, I don't expect
> -people to understand it now. I do expect they will understand it once it has
> -been destroyed, but only in retrospect.
> -
> -:(
>
> The only thing about your statement that puzzles me Dave is your
>frown sign :(. It's not something to be sad about--let the property
>as god types choke on their processors.
I guess you don't see the irony of saying that to a guy who charges
US$500.00 for access to his processor, huh?
Stephen, I know a guy who invested most of his savings into starting
up a small ISP about six months ago. After paying circuit costs,
equipment leases, rent and payroll, he's barely running in the black.
Still, he waives the monthly fee for the local parochial schools and
provides free webspace to a local charities.
Now, explain to me again why he should have to buy lots more bandwidth
and a bigger faster news-server in order to receive and store
thousands of identical copies of ads from Tom Gartman -- a guy who
makes 400k/yr?
Oh yeah, because if he doesn't, you Grubor and HipocritCrime will keep
Message-ID: <tP7p9zFicZuyQAx...@209.242.64.104>
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From: buch...@cybernex.net (Lysander Spooner)
Date: 20 Aug 1998 15:47:09 GMT
X-No-Archive: Yes
Newsgroups: news.admin.net-abuse.usenet
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Don Juneau
> pavanas abludo incusus wrote:
> > Dave Hayes <da...@jetcafe.org> mused and hath written:
> > >Timothy J. Miller wrote:
> > >
> > >If you have access to the net, you can speak there.
> >
> > Provided that the owners of the resources that enable this ability `to
> > speak' so permit and condone said abilty whether covertly or overtly.
>
> If they don't, the net loses usefulness as a communications medium and
> becomes a private club.
Gee, I've been in plenty of "private clubs" that are perfectly useful as a
communications medium... private BBSs, private mailing-lists...
What about the "hacks" list, Dave? A "private club" dedicated to removing
the "usefulness of the net as a communications medium"?
> > >If you do not have access to the net, you cannot speak there, thus you
> > >lose your freedom to speak.
> >
> > This does violence to the concept of privilege granted of useage of shared
> > privately owned resources.
>
> That concept does violence to the concept of a worldwide many-to-many
> human communications medium.
That concept does violence to the concept of a worldwide many-to-many
Don
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From: Don Juneau <dju...@io.com>
Date: 20 Aug 1998 15:55:44 GMT
X-No-Archive: Yes
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Dave Hayes
> Dave Hayes <da...@jetcafe.org> mused and hath written:
> >Timothy J. Miller wrote:
> >> > Eh? I'd say his Class C being screwed is being deprived of his freedom
> >> > of speech, since at that point he may not be able to post or email.
> >> Dave you *really* should do some reading on First Ammendment
> >> law.
> >
> >Why? I wasn't speaking of law, I was speaking of pre-existing conditions.
>
> Then the pre-existing conditions were lawless?
Yep.
> >If you have access to the net, you can speak there.
>
> Provided that the owners of the resources that enable this ability `to
> speak' so permit and condone said abilty whether covertly or overtly.
If they don't, the net loses usefulness as a communications medium and
becomes a private club.
> >If you do not have access to the net, you cannot speak there, thus you
> >lose your freedom to speak.
>
> This does violence to the concept of privilege granted of useage of shared
> privately owned resources.
That concept does violence to the concept of a worldwide many-to-many
human communications medium.
--
Dave Hayes - Altadena CA, USA - da...@jetcafe.org
>>> The opinions expressed above are entirely my own <<<
Freedom Knight of Usenet - http://www.jetcafe.org/~dave/usenet
"The most effective killfile is your own brain." --Russ Allbery
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From: Dave Hayes <da...@jetcafe.org>
Date: 20 Aug 1998 16:04:57 GMT
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Dave Hayes
> On Tue, 18 Aug 1998 11:13:47 GMT, drj...@anutha.zone.mus (Dr John) wrote:
> >Dave Hayes <da...@jetcafe.org> wrote:
> > -If someone, somewhere, does not guarantee the freedom of speech of other
> > -people, eventually the ranks of those people will continue to grow until they
> > -have enough might and muscle and discontent to force their access or destroy
> > -the net in trying.
> >
> > Well I'd much rather see the entire medium destroyed rather than allow a
> >censorous shitbag like Harris have a say about anything but himself.
>
> Then there's a problem, since I'd much rather see the entire medium
> destroyed before I'd allow a socialist thug like you use terrorism to
> force people to use their equipment the way _you_ demand.
Now -there's- a case that you can make a choice from. Yessir. Do I want
socalized force making me spend money or do I want some private club of
rich people telling me who I can and cannot talk to?
Can't you suggest a third alternative? I don't like either that you
seem to suggest.
> Stephen, I know a guy who invested most of his savings into starting
> up a small ISP about six months ago. After paying circuit costs,
> equipment leases, rent and payroll, he's barely running in the black.
> Still, he waives the monthly fee for the local parochial schools and
> provides free webspace to a local charities.
Aww gee. "Parochial school" and "charity" are supposed icons of "good",
but without knowing the specifics you might as well say "Nazist school"
and "leech organization".
But I digress...
> Now, explain to me again why he should have to buy lots more bandwidth
> and a bigger faster news-server in order to receive and store
> thousands of identical copies of ads from Tom Gartman -- a guy who
> makes 400k/yr?
If he wants to be a full-feed site, it has nothing to do with Mr. Gartman.
If he doesn't, technological means can prevent Mr. Gartman from exceeding
his "alloted" portion of bandwidth.
> ** You suck **
Why does this statement impress me with your ability to see beyond the
obvious?
--
Dave Hayes - Altadena CA, USA - da...@jetcafe.org
>>> The opinions expressed above are entirely my own <<<
Freedom Knight of Usenet - http://www.jetcafe.org/~dave/usenet
Regally the waves were hurling themselves upon the rocks, each deep blue
curve crested by whitest foam. Seeing this sight for the first time, Nasrudin
was momentarily overwhelmed. Then he went and took a little water in his hand
and tasted it. "Why," said the Mulla, "to think that something with such
pretensions is not worth drinking."
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From: Dave Hayes <da...@jetcafe.org>
Date: 20 Aug 1998 16:05:05 GMT
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hfmo tqwc skhv
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Dave Hayes
But I digress...
> ** You suck **
Newsgroups: news.admin.net-abuse.usenet,fr.test,fj.test
Path: ...!newshub.northeast.verio.net!newspeer.monmouth.com!rain.fr!news.softandco.fr!jetcafe.org!dave
From: Dave Hayes <da...@jetcafe.org>
Subject: REPOST: Re: [LONG] Re: GOING TO DESTROY NEWSGROUPS
Message-ID: <Q94qWnXNNw48...@jetcafe.org>
Date: 21 Aug 1998 01:08:37 GMT
References: <250798...@none444.yet> <35BC3C11...@jetcafe.org> <35bc4053...@news.wwa.com> <35BCD90D...@jetcafe.org> <Pine.BSI.3.96.980801...@usr10.primenet.com> <35C576F7...@jetcafe.org> <Qzqx1.2552$3G4.5...@news21.bellglobal.com> <35CD03C0...@jetcafe.org> <35d952a6...@news.alt.net> <35e1a5c6...@209.242.64.104>
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This message is being posted as a thank you to net.terrorist Rick Buchanan by MCI2000.
qytv kcd ly
alh vxto iqvl
jyf hfb llbg
bfat xyy iern
ke ggg lmd
mx lla ugu
ug utxw pe
av yskg tixh
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Dave Hayes
> Dave Hayes <da...@jetcafe.org> mused and hath written:
> >Timothy J. Miller wrote:
> >> Dave Hayes <da...@jetcafe.org> writes:
> >> > Eh? I'd say his Class C being screwed is being deprived of his freedom
> >> > of speech, since at that point he may not be able to post or email.
> >> Dave you *really* should do some reading on First Ammendment
> >> law.
> >
> >Why? I wasn't speaking of law, I was speaking of pre-existing conditions.
>
> Then the pre-existing conditions were lawless?
Yep.
> >If you have access to the net, you can speak there.
>
> Provided that the owners of the resources that enable this ability `to
> speak' so permit and condone said abilty whether covertly or overtly.
If they don't, the net loses usefulness as a communications medium and
becomes a private club.
> >If you do not have access to the net, you cannot speak there, thus you
> >lose your freedom to speak.
>
> This does violence to the concept of privilege granted of useage of shared
> privately owned resources.
That concept does violence to the concept of a worldwide many-to-many
human communications medium.
--
Dave Hayes - Altadena CA, USA - da...@jetcafe.org
>>> The opinions expressed above are entirely my own <<<
Freedom Knight of Usenet - http://www.jetcafe.org/~dave/usenet
"The most effective killfile is your own brain." --Russ Allbery
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From: Dave Hayes <da...@jetcafe.org>
Date: 20 Aug 1998 16:04:57 GMT
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From: Dave Hayes <da...@jetcafe.org>
Subject: REPOST: Re: [LONG] Re: GOING TO DESTROY NEWSGROUPS
Message-ID: <WaxjnI88IwypK...@jetcafe.org>
Date: 21 Aug 1998 01:18:55 GMT
References: <250798...@none444.yet> <35BC3C11...@jetcafe.org><35bc4053...@news.wwa.com> <35BCD90D...@jetcafe.org> <Pine.BSI.3.96.980801...@usr10.primenet.com> <35C576F7...@jetcafe.org> <8767ga2...@ibm.net> <35CD0290...@jetcafe.org> <slrn6thfja....@alaceris.ccia.com>
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This message is being posted as a thank you to net.terrorist Rick Buchanan by MCI2000.
hlcc mrn myun
tjek epcv kb
mamu uxqw qfs
qjly enlw fvg
fil yxo xloq
wrb owi xdv
tphx pth nhds
dw gaxo qq
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Lysander Spooner
wrote:
>Dave Hayes <da...@jetcafe.org> wrote:
> -If someone, somewhere, does not guarantee the freedom of speech of other
> -people, eventually the ranks of those people will continue to grow until they
> -have enough might and muscle and discontent to force their access or destroy
> -the net in trying.
>
> Well I'd much rather see the entire medium destroyed rather than allow a
>censorous shitbag like Harris have a say about anything but himself.
Then there's a problem, since I'd much rather see the entire medium
destroyed before I'd allow a socialist thug like you use terrorism to
force people to use their equipment the way _you_ demand.
> Arbitrary on a good day. The most amusing part lately has been in
>the indignation over who gets to issue cancels on others posts or
Anybody can cancel posts. That has been demonstrated. The difference
is that when some cancel posts our service providers say thank you,
and when some cancel posts your providers cut you off. Take the hint.
> -People didn't understand this when I pointed to it long ago, I don't expect
> -people to understand it now. I do expect they will understand it once it has
> -been destroyed, but only in retrospect.
> -
> -:(
>
> The only thing about your statement that puzzles me Dave is your
>frown sign :(. It's not something to be sad about--let the property
>as god types choke on their processors.
I guess you don't see the irony of saying that to a guy who charges
US$500.00 for access to his processor, huh?
Stephen, I know a guy who invested most of his savings into starting
up a small ISP about six months ago. After paying circuit costs,
equipment leases, rent and payroll, he's barely running in the black.
Still, he waives the monthly fee for the local parochial schools and
provides free webspace to a local charities.
Now, explain to me again why he should have to buy lots more bandwidth
and a bigger faster news-server in order to receive and store
thousands of identical copies of ads from Tom Gartman -- a guy who
makes 400k/yr?
Oh yeah, because if he doesn't, you Grubor and HipocritCrime will keep
attacking him and his server until he does! How silly of me to
forget.
-- Rick
--------------
** You suck **
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From: buch...@cybernex.net (Lysander Spooner)
Date: 20 Aug 1998 15:47:09 GMT
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From: buch...@cybernex.net (Lysander Spooner)
Subject: REPOST: Re: [LONG] Re: GOING TO DESTROY NEWSGROUPS
Message-ID: <gTa3wtrOqCVXc...@209.242.64.104>
Date: 21 Aug 1998 02:29:39 GMT
References: <250798...@none444.yet> <35BC3C11...@jetcafe.org> <35bc4053...@news.wwa.com> <35BCD90D...@jetcafe.org> <Pine.BSI.3.96.980801...@usr10.primenet.com> <35C576F7...@jetcafe.org> <Qzqx1.2552$3G4.5...@news21.bellglobal.com> <35CD03C0...@jetcafe.org> <35d952a6...@news.alt.net>
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This message is being posted as a thank you to net.terrorist Rick Buchanan by MCI2000.
txar tkf tl
wq srcb lhwe
pue dwy ls
oxxn mknx ph
csgs wcmr ax
bh apbc dfcf
tm yjmy ucld
fbiv xkuv qe
lvc qqpx ornb
tka het qwkw
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ny qxpm myd
et hcng lnh
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ytht qhc chv
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arhc qtfi app
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do nsf ovpr
Lysander Spooner
Path: ...!howland.erols.net!cpk-news-hub1.bbnplanet.com!news.bbnplanet.com!newspeer.monmouth.com!news.icm.edu.pl!news.task.gda.pl!polsl.gliwice.pl!devnull.open.net.pl!209.242.64.104!buchanan
From: buch...@cybernex.net (Lysander Spooner)
Newsgroups: news.admin.net-abuse.usenet,misc.test
Subject: REPOST: Re: [LONG] Re: GOING TO DESTROY NEWSGROUPS
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..don't forget to turn off the lights!
kaot yyd iup
idso sxw mmmu
qik oax xo
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qucn tuy uod
mt hoiv ae
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oq gmdf gkv
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Dave Hayes
Yep.
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From: Dave Hayes <da...@jetcafe.org>
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From: Dave Hayes <da...@jetcafe.org>
Subject: REPOST: Re: [LONG] Re: GOING TO DESTROY NEWSGROUPS
Message-ID: <WaxjnI88IwypK...@jetcafe.org>
Date: 21 Aug 1998 01:18:55 GMT
References: <250798...@none444.yet> <35BC3C11...@jetcafe.org><35bc4053...@news.wwa.com> <35BCD90D...@jetcafe.org> <Pine.BSI.3.96.980801...@usr10.primenet.com> <35C576F7...@jetcafe.org> <8767ga2...@ibm.net> <35CD0290...@jetcafe.org> <slrn6thfja....@alaceris.ccia.com>
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This message is being posted as a thank you to net.terrorist Rick Buchanan by MCI2000.
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From: Dave Hayes <da...@jetcafe.org>
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Subject: REPOST: Re: [LONG] Re: GOING TO DESTROY NEWSGROUPS
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..don't forget to turn off the lights!
go dqhf qi
vvl chyc mlov
ketu jbm fqe
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nl vdyn xaqp
rwc usc dsyf
oa idyp jbt
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or bnn ugyc
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budb tii pogv
xck bfkf kbvg
vu mcy ncdy
Dave Hayes
> On Tue, 18 Aug 1998 11:13:47 GMT, drj...@anutha.zone.mus (Dr John) wrote:
> >Dave Hayes <da...@jetcafe.org> wrote:
> > -If someone, somewhere, does not guarantee the freedom of speech of other
> > -people, eventually the ranks of those people will continue to grow until they
> > -have enough might and muscle and discontent to force their access or destroy
> > -the net in trying.
> >
> > Well I'd much rather see the entire medium destroyed rather than allow a
> >censorous shitbag like Harris have a say about anything but himself.
>
> Then there's a problem, since I'd much rather see the entire medium
> destroyed before I'd allow a socialist thug like you use terrorism to
> force people to use their equipment the way _you_ demand.
Now -there's- a case that you can make a choice from. Yessir. Do I want
socalized force making me spend money or do I want some private club of
rich people telling me who I can and cannot talk to?
Can't you suggest a third alternative? I don't like either that you
seem to suggest.
> Stephen, I know a guy who invested most of his savings into starting
> up a small ISP about six months ago. After paying circuit costs,
> equipment leases, rent and payroll, he's barely running in the black.
> Still, he waives the monthly fee for the local parochial schools and
> provides free webspace to a local charities.
Aww gee. "Parochial school" and "charity" are supposed icons of "good",
but without knowing the specifics you might as well say "Nazist school"
and "leech organization".
But I digress...
> Now, explain to me again why he should have to buy lots more bandwidth
> and a bigger faster news-server in order to receive and store
> thousands of identical copies of ads from Tom Gartman -- a guy who
> makes 400k/yr?
If he wants to be a full-feed site, it has nothing to do with Mr. Gartman.
If he doesn't, technological means can prevent Mr. Gartman from exceeding
his "alloted" portion of bandwidth.
> ** You suck **
Why does this statement impress me with your ability to see beyond the
obvious?
--
Dave Hayes - Altadena CA, USA - da...@jetcafe.org
>>> The opinions expressed above are entirely my own <<<
Freedom Knight of Usenet - http://www.jetcafe.org/~dave/usenet
Regally the waves were hurling themselves upon the rocks, each deep blue
curve crested by whitest foam. Seeing this sight for the first time, Nasrudin
was momentarily overwhelmed. Then he went and took a little water in his hand
and tasted it. "Why," said the Mulla, "to think that something with such
pretensions is not worth drinking."
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From: Dave Hayes <da...@jetcafe.org>
Date: 20 Aug 1998 16:05:05 GMT
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From: Dave Hayes <da...@jetcafe.org>
Subject: REPOST: Re: [LONG] Re: GOING TO DESTROY NEWSGROUPS
Message-ID: <Q94qWnXNNw48...@jetcafe.org>
Date: 21 Aug 1998 01:08:37 GMT
References: <250798...@none444.yet> <35BC3C11...@jetcafe.org> <35bc4053...@news.wwa.com> <35BCD90D...@jetcafe.org> <Pine.BSI.3.96.980801...@usr10.primenet.com> <35C576F7...@jetcafe.org> <Qzqx1.2552$3G4.5...@news21.bellglobal.com> <35CD03C0...@jetcafe.org> <35d952a6...@news.alt.net> <35e1a5c6...@209.242.64.104>
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This message is being posted as a thank you to net.terrorist Rick Buchanan by MCI2000.
qytv kcd ly
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From: Dave Hayes <da...@jetcafe.org>
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..don't forget to turn off the lights!
acyr mvs cy
fgbp tdc fvwb
yajp mgom pax
bipb xujk fhq
xomf epm nulv
ref jtb vxv
agly lbg igmo
xde wnu gl
tye pegd lj
mu syhx tyuw
yg cgh seng
vh ecj bfg
ndiq wpj dg
euhs moyd ki
bpm ciiw kk
emkp hbll iay
fjo tski nc
rs akpm nr
psa nux ub
huox cdmd regm
uhw pvkd egd
ur siye jeij
aap nmma ju
pqsb qamb kwg
as mepw qq
eb nnf xdn
le byas loie
vkm qnhj tsc
pvd lahv reh
lyi owt ehp
qslc xrgl ptg
pgt oswx mr
kcqd vmbb nnow
np qfth ioh
orli qbo shit
Lysander Spooner
wrote:
>Lysander Spooner wrote:
>>
>> Then there's a problem, since I'd much rather see the entire medium
>> destroyed before I'd allow a socialist thug like you use terrorism to
>> force people to use their equipment the way _you_ demand.
>
>Now -there's- a case that you can make a choice from. Yessir. Do I want
>socalized force making me spend money
Uh, that would be Boursy...
>or do I want some private club of rich people telling me who I can
>and cannot talk to?
...and that would be Gartman.
No problem, Dave. Oppose them both. I do.
>> Stephen, I know a guy who invested most of his savings into starting
>> up a small ISP about six months ago. After paying circuit costs,
>> equipment leases, rent and payroll, he's barely running in the black.
>> Still, he waives the monthly fee for the local parochial schools and
>> provides free webspace to a local charities.
>
>Aww gee. "Parochial school" and "charity" are supposed icons of "good",
>but without knowing the specifics you might as well say "Nazist school"
>and "leech organization".
The relevant fact is that he donates to causes _he_ finds worthy, not
whether you or anyone else agree.
He doesn't consider Gartman a worthy cause. Clear?
>But I digress...
You do that a lot. A defense mechanism perhaps?
>> Now, explain to me again why he should have to buy lots more bandwidth
>> and a bigger faster news-server in order to receive and store
>> thousands of identical copies of ads from Tom Gartman -- a guy who
>> makes 400k/yr?
>
>If he wants to be a full-feed site, it has nothing to do with Mr. Gartman.
He wants to offer a service which will satisfy the desires of his
customers. He has little interest in meeting some arbitrary
definition of your creation.
>If he doesn't, technological means can prevent Mr. Gartman from exceeding
>his "alloted" portion of bandwidth.
Yes, SpamHippo and Cleanfeed. But Boursy says the attacks will
continue as long as they are in use.
You have another means to offer him?
-- Rick
------------
** Spammers are censors **
Lysander Spooner
wrote:
>pavanas abludo incusus wrote:
>> Provided that the owners of the resources that enable this ability `to
>> speak' so permit and condone said abilty whether covertly or overtly.
>
>If they don't, the net loses usefulness as a communications medium and
>becomes a private club.
By "private club", do you mean the kind that charges US$500.00 for
membership?
Just wondering...
-- Rick
-----------
** It's easy to be idealistic with other people's money **
Henrietta Thomas
pav...@alaceris.ccia.com (pavanas abludo incusus) wrote:
>On Tue, 18 Aug 1998 20:58:17 +0000,
> Dave Hayes <da...@jetcafe.org> mused and hath written:
>
>>pavanas abludo incusus wrote:
>>> Dave Hayes <da...@jetcafe.org> mused and hath written:
>>> >If you do not have access to the net, you cannot speak there, thus you
>>> >lose your freedom to speak.
>>>
>>> This does violence to the concept of privilege granted of useage of shared
>>> privately owned resources.
>>
>>That concept does violence to the concept of a worldwide many-to-many
>>human communications medium.
>
>The concept as iterated above is an oxymoron. The nature of the
>pre-existing requirments to gain access precludes the majority of the
>humans living on the planet from partaking in said concept.
The net will eventually be made available to everyone on the planet.
>Is not true that the majority of the humans do not even have access to a
>device as simple as a telephone? Or do you plan to empower them with
>access complete with the hardware, software, and wiring infrastructure
>necessary to bring all humans on the planet to this utopian concept?
Dave might not, but there are individuals like George Soros who
are already setting up systems in countries other than the United
States.
Plus, our own US government is planning to help millions of people
come online by hooking up all the high schools in the country.
So Dave is not completely off base. Only partly. A person deprived
of access to the net is deprived of his ability to speak on the net.....
but he isn't deprived of his ability to speak elsewhere in other media.
At least, not yet.
Henrietta Thomas
Chicago, Illinois
h...@wwa.com
--
Email sent to me will be kept confidential. Do not write unless
you are prepared to respect *my* right to privacy as well.
Rebecca Ore
> pavanas abludo incusus wrote:
> > Then the pre-existing conditions were lawless?
>
> Yep.
Spoken like an anthopological and ethnological idiot.
Laws are pre-human condition, sorry. We evolved as socialized
creatures.
Yearning for a non-socialized condition speaks of the wish to
escape justified feelings of one's own guilt.
--
Rebecca Ore
"Free JetCafe Now"
pavanas abludo incusus
Henrietta Thomas <h...@wwa.com> mused and hath written:
>Plus, our own US government is planning to help millions of people
>come online by hooking up all the high schools in the country.
>
This was done by fiat. It amounts to a tax that was not approved by
congress. Without going into the political mess that hatched this "hidden
tax", it is not quite chiseled in stone, so it may not survive.
>Henrietta Thomas
>Chicago, Illinois
>h...@wwa.com
>
--
Henrietta Thomas
pav...@alaceris.ccia.com (pavanas abludo incusus) wrote:
>On Wed, 19 Aug 1998 03:43:38 GMT,
> Henrietta Thomas <h...@wwa.com> mused and hath written:
>
>>Plus, our own US government is planning to help millions of people
>>come online by hooking up all the high schools in the country.
>>
>This was done by fiat. It amounts to a tax that was not approved by
>congress. Without going into the political mess that hatched this "hidden
>tax", it is not quite chiseled in stone, so it may not survive.
Nevertheless, it *is* a topic of conversation, and there is much to
be gained by introducing young people to the Internet while they
are still in school. Everyone will have to become computer literate
in order to survive in future worlds. And if the Federal government
is unable or unwilling to do this, there is nothing to prevent State
and local governments from doing what needs to be done. We
have two choices for coming generations: Star Trek, where computers
are available to all, or 1984, where they are available only to a chosen
few.
In the beginning, all new inventions are available only to the few who
can afford it. But if an invention is of great value to society, ways will
be found to make it available to all. Electricity, automobiles, telephones,
radio, television, etc. etc. etc.
Henrietta
Henrietta Thomas
========= WAS CANCELLED BY =======:
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From: h...@wwa.com (Henrietta Thomas)
Date: 20 Aug 1998 15:44:09 GMT
X-No-Archive: Yes
Newsgroups: news.admin.net-abuse.usenet
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kv cpq gqvv
Rebecca Ore
> pavanas abludo incusus wrote:
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From: Rebecca Ore <rebec...@op.net>
Date: 20 Aug 1998 15:48:01 GMT
X-No-Archive: Yes
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Path: ...!news-peer.gip.net!news.gsl.net!gip.net!news.maxwell.syr.edu!news.cis.ohio-state.edu!arl-news-svc-3.compuserve.com!news-master.compuserve.com!nntp-nih2naab.compuserve.com!ogoense.net!rebecca.ore
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Henrietta Thomas
pav...@alaceris.ccia.com (pavanas abludo incusus) wrote:
>On Tue, 18 Aug 1998 20:58:17 +0000,
> Dave Hayes <da...@jetcafe.org> mused and hath written:
>
>>pavanas abludo incusus wrote:
>>> Dave Hayes <da...@jetcafe.org> mused and hath written:
>>> >If you do not have access to the net, you cannot speak there, thus you
>>> >lose your freedom to speak.
>>>
>>> This does violence to the concept of privilege granted of useage of shared
>>> privately owned resources.
>>
>>That concept does violence to the concept of a worldwide many-to-many
>>human communications medium.
>
>The concept as iterated above is an oxymoron. The nature of the
>pre-existing requirments to gain access precludes the majority of the
>humans living on the planet from partaking in said concept.
The net will eventually be made available to everyone on the planet.
>Is not true that the majority of the humans do not even have access to a
>device as simple as a telephone? Or do you plan to empower them with
>access complete with the hardware, software, and wiring infrastructure
>necessary to bring all humans on the planet to this utopian concept?
Dave might not, but there are individuals like George Soros who
are already setting up systems in countries other than the United
States.
Plus, our own US government is planning to help millions of people
come online by hooking up all the high schools in the country.
So Dave is not completely off base. Only partly. A person deprived
of access to the net is deprived of his ability to speak on the net.....
but he isn't deprived of his ability to speak elsewhere in other media.
At least, not yet.
Henrietta Thomas
Chicago, Illinois
h...@wwa.com
--
Email sent to me will be kept confidential. Do not write unless
you are prepared to respect *my* right to privacy as well.
========= WAS CANCELLED BY =======:
Message-ID: <ezfZUjWMWc82li...@news.wwa.com>
Control: cancel <35da3d4a...@news.wwa.com>
Subject: cmsg cancel <35da3d4a...@news.wwa.com>
From: h...@wwa.com (Henrietta Thomas)
Date: 20 Aug 1998 15:56:18 GMT
X-No-Archive: Yes
Newsgroups: news.admin.net-abuse.usenet
Path: ...!news2.ais.net!jamie!ais.net!WCG!arl-news-svc-3.compuserve.com!news-master.compuserve.com!nntp-nih2naab.compuserve.com!news.wwa.com!hkt
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te npma hi
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unlx xbv yvv
yp ylv stbp
iw scx xdai
Lysander Spooner
>pavanas abludo incusus wrote:
>> Provided that the owners of the resources that enable this ability `to
>> speak' so permit and condone said abilty whether covertly or overtly.
>
>If they don't, the net loses usefulness as a communications medium and
>becomes a private club.
By "private club", do you mean the kind that charges US$500.00 for
membership?
Just wondering...
-- Rick
-----------
** It's easy to be idealistic with other people's money **
========= WAS CANCELLED BY =======:
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From: buch...@cybernex.net (Lysander Spooner)
Date: 20 Aug 1998 15:59:48 GMT
X-No-Archive: Yes
Newsgroups: news.admin.net-abuse.usenet
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vfg xhmy fwrt
hs wyg syf
Rebecca Ore
> pavanas abludo incusus wrote:
> > Then the pre-existing conditions were lawless?
>
> Yep.
Spoken like an anthopological and ethnological idiot.
Laws are pre-human condition, sorry. We evolved as socialized
creatures.
Yearning for a non-socialized condition speaks of the wish to
escape justified feelings of one's own guilt.
--
Rebecca Ore
"Free JetCafe Now"
========= WAS CANCELLED BY =======:
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Date: 20 Aug 1998 15:48:01 GMT
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From: Rebecca Ore <rebec...@op.net>
Subject: REPOST: Re: [LONG] Re: GOING TO DESTROY NEWSGROUPS
Message-ID: <XzDj8bXsIcymtv...@ogoense.net>
Date: 21 Aug 1998 02:33:07 GMT
References: <250798...@none444.yet> <35BC3C11...@jetcafe.org> <35bc4053...@news.wwa.com> <35BCD90D...@jetcafe.org> <Pine.BSI.3.96.980801...@usr10.primenet.com> <35C576F7...@jetcafe.org> <8767ga2...@ibm.net> <35CD0290...@jetcafe.org> <slrn6thfja....@alaceris.ccia.com> <35D9EAE9...@jetcafe.org>
Supercedes: <REPOST-4850.8519592...@ogoense.net>
X-No-Archive: Yes
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This message is being posted as a thank you to net.terrorist Rick Buchanan by MCI2000.
qxio gjxy gyyl
pm xqr tat
fbjo mald qhc
hg lfxq mraj
xxx grtf ma
ho rdft gwex
kaby lsli ik
ejx qhuc kaeu
wmke lrga xx
fp igec isdv
krq gnt dqx
hm rvji ojth
msp jcrl xcj
bt icbv dk
cm cgiq ltfr
vrp xbyh bwn
st ogdw kj
wdap uoya rxg
miu pwjt dom
uy jqgq sav
jki jml twyo
avdj bmj dk
Henrietta Thomas
pav...@alaceris.ccia.com (pavanas abludo incusus) wrote:
>On Wed, 19 Aug 1998 03:43:38 GMT,
> Henrietta Thomas <h...@wwa.com> mused and hath written:
>
>>Plus, our own US government is planning to help millions of people
>>come online by hooking up all the high schools in the country.
>>
>This was done by fiat. It amounts to a tax that was not approved by
>congress. Without going into the political mess that hatched this "hidden
>tax", it is not quite chiseled in stone, so it may not survive.
Nevertheless, it *is* a topic of conversation, and there is much to
be gained by introducing young people to the Internet while they
are still in school. Everyone will have to become computer literate
in order to survive in future worlds. And if the Federal government
is unable or unwilling to do this, there is nothing to prevent State
and local governments from doing what needs to be done. We
have two choices for coming generations: Star Trek, where computers
are available to all, or 1984, where they are available only to a chosen
few.
In the beginning, all new inventions are available only to the few who
can afford it. But if an invention is of great value to society, ways will
be found to make it available to all. Electricity, automobiles, telephones,
radio, television, etc. etc. etc.
Henrietta
--
Email sent to me will be kept confidential. Do not write unless
you are prepared to respect *my* right to privacy as well.
========= WAS CANCELLED BY =======:
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From: h...@wwa.com (Henrietta Thomas)
Date: 20 Aug 1998 15:44:09 GMT
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From: h...@wwa.com (Henrietta Thomas)
Subject: REPOST: Re: [LONG] Re: GOING TO DESTROY NEWSGROUPS
Message-ID: <YlgXu6Y1tDPVX...@news.wwa.com>
Date: 21 Aug 1998 02:43:37 GMT
References: <250798...@none444.yet> <35BC3C11...@jetcafe.org><35bc4053...@news.wwa.com> <35BCD90D...@jetcafe.org> <Pine.BSI.3.96.980801...@usr10.primenet.com> <35C576F7...@jetcafe.org> <8767ga2...@ibm.net> <35CD0290...@jetcafe.org> <slrn6thfja....@alaceris.ccia.com> <35D9EAE9...@jetcafe.org> <slrn6tk41g....@alaceris.ccia.com> <35da3d4a...@news.wwa.com> <slrn6tmfko....@alaceris.ccia.com>
Supercedes: <REPOST-22814.3037414...@news.wwa.com>
X-No-Archive: Yes
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This message is being posted as a thank you to net.terrorist Rick Buchanan by MCI2000.
aflg qly xnk
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vp lrl co
xle myxn jhbu
kbih fefe lr
dyst igc pk
lbj ylx bh
ce xkq ccg
thw xah um
dxpp nvft ltp
aimi wfj bkgh
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Henrietta Thomas
Path: ...!howland.erols.net!news-peer.sprintlink.net!news-backup-west.sprintlink.net!news.sprintlink.net!205.237.233.10!wesley.videotron.net!Pollux.Teleglobe.net!orion.cst.tpsa.pl!news.task.gda.pl!polsl.gliwice.pl!devnull.open.net.pl!news.wwa.com!hkt
From: h...@wwa.com (Henrietta Thomas)
Newsgroups: news.admin.net-abuse.usenet,misc.test
Subject: REPOST: Re: [LONG] Re: GOING TO DESTROY NEWSGROUPS
Control: sendsys
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Date: 22 Aug 1998 00:18:26 GMT
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References: <250798...@none444.yet> <35BC3C11...@jetcafe.org><35bc4053...@news.wwa.com> <35BCD90D...@jetcafe.org> <Pine.BSI.3.96.980801...@usr10.primenet.com> <35C576F7...@jetcafe.org> <8767ga2...@ibm.net> <35CD0290...@jetcafe.org> <slrn6thfja....@alaceris.ccia.com> <35D9EAE9...@jetcafe.org> <slrn6tk41g....@alaceris.ccia.com> <35da3d4a...@news.wwa.com> <slrn6tmfko....@alaceris.ccia.com>
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..don't forget to turn off the lights!
ukm hvkv tvfc
td rwe pxh
wqjv cfvb gy
snf wvfg ri
yype itev ocqk
tal ibr xv
lq xewc abph
hwnw yhv hn
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byp yjd dif
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vuu mccw jn
jvm nvp uyo
Rebecca Ore
> pavanas abludo incusus wrote:
> > Then the pre-existing conditions were lawless?
>
> Yep.
Spoken like an anthopological and ethnological idiot.
Laws are pre-human condition, sorry. We evolved as socialized
creatures.
Yearning for a non-socialized condition speaks of the wish to
escape justified feelings of one's own guilt.
--
Rebecca Ore
"Free JetCafe Now"
========= WAS CANCELLED BY =======:
Message-ID: <zY0dzbrJhPk6g...@ogoense.net>
Control: cancel <m3d89w9...@ogoense.net>
Subject: cmsg cancel <m3d89w9...@ogoense.net>
From: Rebecca Ore <rebec...@op.net>
Date: 20 Aug 1998 15:48:01 GMT
X-No-Archive: Yes
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From: Rebecca Ore <rebec...@op.net>
Subject: REPOST: Re: [LONG] Re: GOING TO DESTROY NEWSGROUPS
Message-ID: <XzDj8bXsIcymtv...@ogoense.net>
Date: 21 Aug 1998 02:33:07 GMT
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This message is being posted as a thank you to net.terrorist Rick Buchanan by MCI2000.
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From: Rebecca Ore <rebec...@op.net>
Newsgroups: news.admin.net-abuse.usenet,misc.test
Subject: REPOST: Re: [LONG] Re: GOING TO DESTROY NEWSGROUPS
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Rebecca Ore
> pavanas abludo incusus wrote:
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From: Rebecca Ore <rebec...@op.net>
Newsgroups: news.admin.net-abuse.usenet,misc.test
Subject: REPOST: Re: [LONG] Re: GOING TO DESTROY NEWSGROUPS
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Henrietta Thomas
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From: h...@wwa.com (Henrietta Thomas)
Date: 20 Aug 1998 15:44:09 GMT
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From: h...@wwa.com (Henrietta Thomas)
Subject: REPOST: Re: [LONG] Re: GOING TO DESTROY NEWSGROUPS
Message-ID: <YlgXu6Y1tDPVX...@news.wwa.com>
Date: 21 Aug 1998 02:43:37 GMT
References: <250798...@none444.yet> <35BC3C11...@jetcafe.org><35bc4053...@news.wwa.com> <35BCD90D...@jetcafe.org> <Pine.BSI.3.96.980801...@usr10.primenet.com> <35C576F7...@jetcafe.org> <8767ga2...@ibm.net> <35CD0290...@jetcafe.org> <slrn6thfja....@alaceris.ccia.com> <35D9EAE9...@jetcafe.org> <slrn6tk41g....@alaceris.ccia.com> <35da3d4a...@news.wwa.com> <slrn6tmfko....@alaceris.ccia.com>
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This message is being posted as a thank you to net.terrorist Rick Buchanan by MCI2000.
aflg qly xnk
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From: h...@wwa.com (Henrietta Thomas)
Newsgroups: news.admin.net-abuse.usenet,misc.test
Subject: REPOST: Re: [LONG] Re: GOING TO DESTROY NEWSGROUPS
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From: h...@wwa.com (Henrietta Thomas)
Newsgroups: news.admin.net-abuse.usenet,misc.test
Subject: REPOST: Re: [LONG] Re: GOING TO DESTROY NEWSGROUPS
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Clifton Royston
: If you have access to the net, you can speak there. If you do not have
: access to the net, you cannot speak there, thus you lose your freedom
: to speak.
But how is it others' responsibility to provide them with that freedom
to speak - and how can it then be right for you, Dave Hayes, to
disclaim that responsibility for yourself? What *is* the rationale for
jetcafe.org not being made publicly accessible, and why does that
rationale not apply to others who provide Usenet access?
I ask that as a serious question, for all that others are asking it
rhetorically in sarcasm.
By the way - I don't think you've ever answered one of the more serious
questions raised as to your philosophical position:
If you believe, as you've seemed to argue in the past, that you (or
anyone) can only act honorably of your own free will, that nobody can
force you (or anyone) to do anything against your principles, that it's
not honorable to change your principles because of the circumstances,
and that all talk of "have to" or "should" are merely expression of
personal likes and dislikes - then that's fine. I find that in many
respects a meaningful philosophical attitude, and often a pragmatically
useful one to take in looking at ones motives. But then what on earth
does it mean for you to say, as you did, in one memorable post:
"And if you haven't been following the FK list, you are -really-
not gonna like what they are going to do next. -I- don't even
like it. But I can't stop it either, and after much consideration,
I'm afraid I have to support the action."
<35C57924...@jetcafe.org>
It seems to me that in the terms of discourse you've recommended to us,
this is completely meaningless. Your own interpretation for it, if
someone else were to say it, would seem to be that what it means to
support an action is that you *do* like "what they [were then] going to
do next." That is what support means, is it not? An expression of a
personal like or dislike?
I'm not playing verbal games with you here - from your discussions with
Russ, I think I've gleaned a lot about where you're coming from. I
*do* see what looks to me like a serious disjuncture between your
thought-out principles and how you're applying them to yourself. I
think if you go into this one there's at least a possibility you might
end up agreeing about some of the contradictions others have seen in
your behavior. (And contradictions, worked through, often result in
higher-order meaning.)
-- Clifton
--
Clifton Royston -- President, LavaNet Inc. -- clif...@lava.net
Grosvenor Center .. Makai Tower, #1590 .. 733 Bishop St. .. Honolulu HI 96813
Phone: +1 808 545-LAVA (545-5282) Auto-info email: in...@lava.net
pavanas abludo incusus
Henrietta Thomas <h...@wwa.com> mused and hath written:
>In news.admin.net-abuse.usenet on 19 Aug 1998 21:02:26 GMT,
>pav...@alaceris.ccia.com (pavanas abludo incusus) wrote:
>
>>On Wed, 19 Aug 1998 03:43:38 GMT,
>> Henrietta Thomas <h...@wwa.com> mused and hath written:
>>
>>>Plus, our own US government is planning to help millions of people
>>>come online by hooking up all the high schools in the country.
>>>
>>This was done by fiat. It amounts to a tax that was not approved by
>>congress. Without going into the political mess that hatched this "hidden
>>tax", it is not quite chiseled in stone, so it may not survive.
>
>Nevertheless, it *is* a topic
[...]
History: Taxation without representation is tyranny.
Remember that phrase?
Principles, however nobly couched in whatever flowery words cannot and do
not abrogate the constitution of the USA.
So, then if you are in agreement with this betterment of the world at
large you will not mind when the tax on long distance slowly (and without
enabling legislation creeps upward) from a dollar or two then five or
ten... In this mindset then you will not mind a fiat tax on you cable
service, or electric, or water, or natural gas, or heating oil, or...
well you should get the point. Just how long will the people be willing to
finance a Hayesian Universe? Most likely until enough of them discover the
duplicity of the current administration. Taxpayers do not take kindly to
unauthorised raids on their net income.
>
>Henrietta
>--
>Email sent to me will be kept confidential. Do not write unless
>you are prepared to respect *my* right to privacy as well.
Clifton Royston
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From: clif...@lava.net (Clifton Royston)
Subject: Re: [LONG] Re: GOING TO DESTROY NEWSGROUPS
Message-ID: <wLjZqXBK1YdCG...@mochi.lava.net>
Date: 21 Aug 1998 03:28:18 GMT
References: <250798...@none444.yet> <35BC3C11...@jetcafe.org> <35bc4053...@news.wwa.com> <35BCD90D...@jetcafe.org> <Pine.BSI.3.96.980801...@usr10.primenet.com> <35C576F7...@jetcafe.org> <8767ga2...@ibm.net> <35CD0290...@jetcafe.org>
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This message is being posted as a thank you to net.terrorist Rick Buchanan by MCI2000.
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Hans Chloride
incusus) wrote:
>On Wed, 19 Aug 1998 03:43:38 GMT,
> Henrietta Thomas <h...@wwa.com> mused and hath written:
>
>>Plus, our own US government is planning to help millions of people
>>come online by hooking up all the high schools in the country.
>>
>This was done by fiat. It amounts to a tax that was not approved by
>congress. Without going into the political mess that hatched this "hidden
>tax", it is not quite chiseled in stone, so it may not survive.
>
Oh, yes. Isn't that simply lovely? They placed about a $5 tax on
having a second telephone line. Their reasoning being if you can
afford a second line, you can afford to pay the tax. Which basically
screwed me out. I had two lines so as not to tie up the household
phone being as I spend an inordinate amount of free time online. That
lovely little tax tipped the budget just enough to where I had to drop
it. That's fine. The gov don't get the tax money, the telco don't
get the money for the second line, and I wind up saving a little bit.
I think that the tax was actually applied to the telcos, and they
simply passed it on to us, which upset the government somewhat. What
did they expect?
I get a little annoyed at the continual implementation of taxes, open
or hidden. It gets to be a form of legalized extortion past a certain
point.
Hey, the intent is good. Wire all the schools and that. Not that
it's going to actually do much good in real life. Some of the local
kids I know attended the high school just after they got two rooms
full of new computers and a frame relay link to the 'net. There were
fewer than a dozen serious users of the 'net. Most of the kids were
either hunting for pr0n, warez, or games, or busily engaged in Globe
Chat.
When they started putting limits on where you could go, the kids that
couldn't figure out how to circumvent the "security" simply let the
machines gather dust. Oh, some of the more powerful machines are
actively used for CAD/CAM type-stuff in those classes, which is fine.
Same at the local college extension, really. They have classes where
some older people learn to "surf the web" or whatever, but when class
isn't in session you've got a dozen teenagers Globe Chatting.
Now that's what I call good use of tax money. Those kids will be
AOL-Ready, for sure. I'm happy they have phat bandwidth for such a
useful and productive task, as I sit here trying to squeeze the
endless chain of useless patches and fixes through a 33.6 dialup.
The kids that are serious about learning the 'net, unless they're in
an extremely rural area will get an old 486 and a cheap shell account,
at least from what I've seen around here. And this area is fairly
rural. The rest of 'em just want to screw around. What they teach in
the schools is how to use Netscape, and if you're rilly advanced,
WS_FTP and EWAN Telnet. Wow. Three Windoze-based appz.
Learn those, and hey, you're "Computer-Literate" and can "Surf The
Internet." Snurf. I'm sorry, but I think that the whole program is a
sorry waste of money, and was only implemented to make some
politicians look like they "care about the children's future".
The school district around here pisses me off anyway. They took a
bunch of 386's and 486's, stripped them, smashed them up, and threw
them in a dumpster. Which justified them buying a whole bunch of
P-133's and up, as "many of the machines we have are obsolete and
non-functional". Yeah, when you bounce a machine off the concrete and
sledgehammer it, it's not going to function very well, is it? Wonder
how many poor people coulda found good use for those machines?
Well, at least one of the kiddies brought me the least smashed
motherboard of the bunch. 386-DX33 with one cracked ISA slot. Might
make for a good FreeBSD box when I find a monitor.
HC
Timothy J. Miller
> The school district around here pisses me off anyway. They took a
> bunch of 386's and 486's, stripped them, smashed them up, and threw
> them in a dumpster. Which justified them buying a whole bunch of
> P-133's and up, as "many of the machines we have are obsolete and
> non-functional". Yeah, when you bounce a machine off the concrete and
> sledgehammer it, it's not going to function very well, is it? Wonder
> how many poor people coulda found good use for those machines?
I could/ve used a dozen of 'em. I'm looking at building a
Beowulf cluseter in my home office.
Why? Because I *can*. 8)
--
Cerebus <tmi...@ibm.net>
"No one's jumped off the top of the [Windows] building here, so I guess
that's a pretty good indicator that it can't be all that bad."
-- Rob Bennett, Microsoft group product manager.
Hans Chloride
The school district around here pisses me off anyway. They took a
bunch of 386's and 486's, stripped them, smashed them up, and threw
them in a dumpster. Which justified them buying a whole bunch of
P-133's and up, as "many of the machines we have are obsolete and
non-functional". Yeah, when you bounce a machine off the concrete and
sledgehammer it, it's not going to function very well, is it? Wonder
how many poor people coulda found good use for those machines?
Well, at least one of the kiddies brought me the least smashed
motherboard of the bunch. 386-DX33 with one cracked ISA slot. Might
make for a good FreeBSD box when I find a monitor.
HC
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From: chlo...@transport.com (Hans Chloride)
Newsgroups: news.admin.net-abuse.usenet,misc.test
Subject: Re: [LONG] Re: GOING TO DESTROY NEWSGROUPS
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Dave Hayes
> Dave Hayes <da...@jetcafe.org> mused and hath written:
> >pavanas abludo incusus wrote:
> >> Dave Hayes <da...@jetcafe.org> mused and hath written:
>
> >becomes a private club.
> >
> you believe that only those who have access are human? Where is this
> going?
It should not be a private club. It must not be a private club. If that
is what people are going to do with it, what use is it but to further
the agendas of the club? It can have no real human relavence.
> >> >If you do not have access to the net, you cannot speak there, thus you
> >> >lose your freedom to speak.
> >>
> >> This does violence to the concept of privilege granted of useage of shared
> >> privately owned resources.
> >
> >That concept does violence to the concept of a worldwide many-to-many
> >human communications medium.
>
> The concept as iterated above is an oxymoron. The nature of the
> pre-existing requirments to gain access precludes the majority of the
> humans living on the planet from partaking in said concept.
That can be dealt with, given a pre-existing condition of free speech.
> Is not true that the majority of the humans do not even have access to a
> device as simple as a telephone? Or do you plan to empower them with
> access complete with the hardware, software, and wiring infrastructure
> necessary to bring all humans on the planet to this utopian concept?
I'll do what I can with what I have.
> >"The most effective killfile is your own brain." --Russ Allbery
> You mean setting the big red switch to 0?
As an extrema, yes. There are plenty of other options, however (delete key,
killfiles, looking and going "oh I'm not going to finish reading this",...)
--
Dave Hayes - Altadena CA, USA - da...@jetcafe.org
>>> The opinions expressed above are entirely my own <<<
Freedom Knight of Usenet - http://www.jetcafe.org/~dave/usenet
F x S = k. The product of Freedom and Security is a constant.
-- Larry Niven
Dave Hayes
> Dave Hayes <da...@jetcafe.org> wrote:
> >pavanas abludo incusus wrote:
> >> Provided that the owners of the resources that enable this ability `to
> >> speak' so permit and condone said abilty whether covertly or overtly.
> >
> >becomes a private club.
>
> membership?
*shrug* At least members get treated like human beings there, unlike
most of the net.
> ** It's easy to be idealistic with other people's money **
But it's not easy to do anything idealistic without money. And, of
course, the difficulty level sure does influence it's worth. (Not.)
--
Dave Hayes - Altadena CA, USA - da...@jetcafe.org
>>> The opinions expressed above are entirely my own <<<
Freedom Knight of Usenet - http://www.jetcafe.org/~dave/usenet
"We should never live in a world where dreams are rarer than money."
-Mathhew Brodrick
Dave Hayes
> On Tue, 18 Aug 1998, Dave Hayes wrote:
> > pavanas abludo incusus wrote:
> > > >
> > > >If you have access to the net, you can speak there.
> > >
> > > Provided that the owners of the resources that enable this ability `to
> > > speak' so permit and condone said abilty whether covertly or overtly.
> >
> > If they don't, the net loses usefulness as a communications medium and
> > becomes a private club.
>
> communications medium... private BBSs, private mailing-lists...
Sure, until you get kicked out or blackballed. Sometimes this occurs
arbitrarily.
> What about the "hacks" list, Dave? A "private club" dedicated to removing
> the "usefulness of the net as a communications medium"?
*shrug* Ask them, not me. I'm not a member of that club.
> > > >If you do not have access to the net, you cannot speak there, thus you
> > > >lose your freedom to speak.
> > >
> > > This does violence to the concept of privilege granted of useage of shared
> > > privately owned resources.
> >
> > That concept does violence to the concept of a worldwide many-to-many
> > human communications medium.
>
> Repetitive multiposting spambots aren't
> human, Dave. Repetitive cancelling/superceding abusebots aren't human,
> Dave. Repetitive multiposted advertisements aren't communications, Dave.
> Repetitive multiposted cancels/supercedes aren't communications, Dave.
So?
> You're a true philosopher, Dave... your philosophy appears more important
> to you than the current, majority-opinion,
Wake up. You can't prove that anything is a majority-opinion out here.
> application of the current
> incarnation of Usenet. <shrug> Things change over time. Maybe I'm not
> satisifed with the way things are. <shrug> Thing *is*, if I'm dissatisfied
> I'll try and change things... *without* pulling everything apart to fit my
> own personal philosophy/dream.
I am not trying to pull everything apart. I've simply noted actions and
consequences, and attempted to point to an ideal. For that, I've been
crucified by a small but vocal segement of people.
> If I had great communications skills, I'd
> be out there trying to convert others... by giving them a taste of
> something better, and reeling 'em in after they're hooked.
Assuming, of course, that "they" know or I know what is better and
we all agree on the standard of "better".
> If I had great programming skills, I'd be out there
> helping admins and end-users defeat abuse,
Just because don't I apply my skills to what -you- think is abuse doesn't
mean I'm not doing this.
> thus making the 'Net all safe
> and happy for *everyone*... well, except abusers.
That's not acceptable to me. You know why? Because you are calling certain
people that you don't like "abusers", and I don't believe they are. I want
-everyone- (even the rabid kooks) to be happy using the net. I want a level
playing field.
> (And surely HypeCramp & Company's little tantrums are abuse, right, Dave?)
No. He's making a statement via civil disobedience. I refuse to condone or
support his actions, because they are his and not mine.
> C'mon, Dave. Stop HC&Co. from causing damage to the many-to-many human
> communications medium.
Why do you somehow think I control his being? I can no more stop him than
I can stop the sun from rising, or the wind from blowing. I can, however,
find shade and put a jacket on. Can you?
> If you can pull it off, I'll bet people would start
> listening to you. *If* you care about others listening to you.
I certainly do not care about you listening to me, that's for sure.
Not that I wouldn't like it if you suddenly started seeing what I was
saying, but in the state you are in right now I know I'm doing the right
thing when you are lambasting me. That may change, or it may not. Your
choice even.
--
Dave Hayes - Altadena CA, USA - da...@jetcafe.org
>>> The opinions expressed above are entirely my own <<<
Freedom Knight of Usenet - http://www.jetcafe.org/~dave/usenet
Merely doing good to the evil may be just like doing evil to the good.
Dave Hayes
> >>
> >> Then there's a problem, since I'd much rather see the entire medium
> >> destroyed before I'd allow a socialist thug like you use terrorism to
> >> force people to use their equipment the way _you_ demand.
> >
> >Now -there's- a case that you can make a choice from. Yessir. Do I want
> >socalized force making me spend money
>
> Uh, that would be Boursy...
>
> >or do I want some private club of rich people telling me who I can
> >and cannot talk to?
>
> ...and that would be Gartman.
>
> No problem, Dave. Oppose them both. I do.
Gartman is not in that class and you know it. :)
The cabal, however, is another matter.
> >> Stephen, I know a guy who invested most of his savings into starting
> >> up a small ISP about six months ago. After paying circuit costs,
> >> equipment leases, rent and payroll, he's barely running in the black.
> >> Still, he waives the monthly fee for the local parochial schools and
> >> provides free webspace to a local charities.
> >
> >Aww gee. "Parochial school" and "charity" are supposed icons of "good",
> >but without knowing the specifics you might as well say "Nazist school"
> >and "leech organization".
>
> The relevant fact is that he donates to causes _he_ finds worthy, not
> whether you or anyone else agree.
Then why did you bring it up as anything but?
> He doesn't consider Gartman a worthy cause. Clear?
Then he's filtering him I suppose.
> >> Now, explain to me again why he should have to buy lots more bandwidth
> >> and a bigger faster news-server in order to receive and store
> >> thousands of identical copies of ads from Tom Gartman -- a guy who
> >> makes 400k/yr?
> >
> >If he wants to be a full-feed site, it has nothing to do with Mr. Gartman.
>
> He wants to offer a service which will satisfy the desires of his
> customers. He has little interest in meeting some arbitrary
> definition of your creation.
I got that. What I don't get is what about "full feed" == "no filtering
or censorship" you don't understand?
> >If he doesn't, technological means can prevent Mr. Gartman from exceeding
> >his "alloted" portion of bandwidth.
> Yes, SpamHippo and Cleanfeed.
Ugh.
> But Boursy says the attacks will continue as long as they are in use.
I find it interesting that you believe someone you repeatedly claim is evil.
> You have another means to offer him?
Already done. Exponential backoff. MD5 filtering. More honorable solutions
to come.
> ** Spammers are censors **
I disagree.
--
Dave Hayes - Altadena CA, USA - da...@jetcafe.org
>>> The opinions expressed above are entirely my own <<<
Freedom Knight of Usenet - http://www.jetcafe.org/~dave/usenet
A man was claiming to be a Prophet. He was taken before the Church.
"Prophets reveal miracles," said the Minister. "What is yours?"
The man replied: "I have the ability to read thoughts. Right now
you are all thinking that I am lying."
Dave Hayes
> Dave Hayes (da...@jetcafe.org) wrote:
> : If you have access to the net, you can speak there. If you do not have
> : access to the net, you cannot speak there, thus you lose your freedom
> : to speak.
>
> to speak
I think the mistake here is presumption of causality of provision. It is
not others' doing to grant freedom to speak. It -is- others' doing to
provide infrastructure for communication. If this is being done, I contend
that it is not honorable to parse content and make decisions about passing
that content. Either you pass all of it or none of it.
> - and how can it then be right for you, Dave Hayes, to
> disclaim that responsibility for yourself?
>
> What *is* the rationale for
> jetcafe.org not being made publicly accessible, and why does that
> rationale not apply to others who provide Usenet access?
>
> I ask that as a serious question, for all that others are asking it
> rhetorically in sarcasm.
Well, I'll take you seriously then.
First of all, JetCafe is the wrong model. I didn't start it to satisfy
my concerns about Usenet, I didn't even start it. It was started to solve
a different problem, and I merely helped it go in a big way. It's not
mine. It's a group of people's.
Now I eventually want to start a separate entity to actually do free Usenet
access. However, there are logistical and financial problems with that
that I haven't figured out how to solve yet. The naysayers will say that
I'll never solve them, and they may or may not be right. I have to learn
enough about disciplines that I have little experience in to see whether
it is or is not possible.
Does that help?
> By the way - I don't think you've ever answered one of the more serious
> questions raised as to your philosophical position:
>
> If you believe, as you've seemed to argue in the past, that you (or
> anyone) can only act honorably of your own free will, that nobody can
> force you (or anyone) to do anything against your principles, that it's
> not honorable to change your principles because of the circumstances,
> and that all talk of "have to" or "should" are merely expression of
> personal likes and dislikes - then that's fine. I find that in many
> respects a meaningful philosophical attitude, and often a pragmatically
> useful one to take in looking at ones motives. But then what on earth
> does it mean for you to say, as you did, in one memorable post:
>
> "And if you haven't been following the FK list, you are -really-
> not gonna like what they are going to do next. -I- don't even
> like it. But I can't stop it either, and after much consideration,
> I'm afraid I have to support the action."
> <35C57924...@jetcafe.org>
>
> It seems to me that in the terms of discourse you've recommended to us,
> this is completely meaningless. Your own interpretation for it, if
> someone else were to say it, would seem to be that what it means to
> support an action is that you *do* like "what they [were then] going to
> do next." That is what support means, is it not? An expression of a
> personal like or dislike?
Not in this case.
The problem comes from looking at someone else's sphere of being and
attempting to see where they are coming from. Support is not necessarily
always "like or disklike", sometimes support is merely saying "I can
see where you are coming from, and I can't blame you one bit".
The problem comes in that no one has any recourse at all when one is
censored. How does a person framed for spamming address people when
they are kicked off an ISP faster than they can react to that? How
does a blackballed provider (i.e. RBL) get unblackballed? How would
Sanford Wallace get internet access?
When people are backed into a corner, shredded, and left to rot,
the reaction is invariably closer to "destroy it all out of spite"
than "well what did I do to deserve this". Not that the latter question
is even relevant (because maybe they did nothing after all) either.
In the above case, I see that there are people who are backed into a
corner, being tarred and feathered, and being censored for no other
reason than their choice of ISP. These people have no remedy other
than destruction. Knowing Kuan-Yin like I do, I have some compassion
for that. Thus my statement above.
> I'm not playing verbal games with you here - from your discussions with
> Russ, I think I've gleaned a lot about where you're coming from. I
> *do* see what looks to me like a serious disjuncture between your
> thought-out principles and how you're applying them to yourself.
Lots see that. I find it amusing, because I work backwards from
that. If I see a contradiction, I usually presume it's because I don't have
all the data necessary...which happens when you are looking at another
person.
Most people are missing -lots- of data about me. One of the reasons Russ
and I can talk sensibly is because, at some point, Russ -asked- (and politely
even) about missing data. :)
--
Dave Hayes - Altadena CA, USA - da...@jetcafe.org
>>> The opinions expressed above are entirely my own <<<
Freedom Knight of Usenet - http://www.jetcafe.org/~dave/usenet
You may follow one stream.
Realize that it leads to the Ocean.
Do not mistake the stream for the Ocean.
Rebecca Ore
> chlo...@transport.com (Hans Chloride) writes:
>
> > The school district around here pisses me off anyway. They took a
> > bunch of 386's and 486's, stripped them, smashed them up, and threw
> > them in a dumpster. Which justified them buying a whole bunch of
> > P-133's and up, as "many of the machines we have are obsolete and
> > non-functional". Yeah, when you bounce a machine off the concrete and
> > sledgehammer it, it's not going to function very well, is it? Wonder
> > how many poor people coulda found good use for those machines?
>
> I could/ve used a dozen of 'em. I'm looking at building a
> Beowulf cluseter in my home office.
>
> Why? Because I *can*. 8)
I worked for a non-profit once where a comp guy tipped us that
such a trashing was going to take place against company policy
that such things be recycled. We got a good number of the
computers rescued and when the agency I worked for got their
computers, some of them had had memory chips taken out.
Putting the sledge hammer to the boxes is a good way to hide
theft of internal parts.
--
Rebecca Ore
Charles Demas
Rebecca Ore <rebec...@op.net> wrote:
>
> I worked for a non-profit once where a comp guy tipped us that
> such a trashing was going to take place against company policy
> that such things be recycled. We got a good number of the
> computers rescued and when the agency I worked for got their
> computers, some of them had had memory chips taken out.
>
> Putting the sledge hammer to the boxes is a good way to hide
> theft of internal parts.
Don't think of it as theft, think of it as a person with initiative
following the company's stated policy of recycling. BTW, it could be
that the memory was pulled out by the staff and installed in other
machines at the company, machines that weren't going to be trashed.
That would have been consistent with the company's recycling policy.
I bet that the financial accounting for such a chip recycling effort,
if done, would be a nightmare. Easier to trash the stuff on the books
than to track and document a salvage value after the equipment was
fully depreciated.
Chuck Demas
Needham, Mass.
--
Eat Healthy | _ _ | Nothing would be done at all,
Stay Fit | @ @ | If a man waited to do it so well,
Die Anyway | v | That no one could find fault with it.
de...@tiac.net | \___/ | http://www.tiac.net/users/demas
Rebecca Ore
> The problem comes in that no one has any recourse at all when one is
> censored. How does a person framed for spamming address people when
> they are kicked off an ISP faster than they can react to that? How
> does a blackballed provider (i.e. RBL) get unblackballed? How would
> Sanford Wallace get internet access?
Sanford Wallace has internet service now and a web page with a
discussion group on it that Sanford intends as a common
meeting place for both sides of the email spam issue.
Sanford also regularly posts to nanae.
Re the RBL, the provider talks to Paul Vixie, who, unlike
HipCrime, is publically accessible. Ask Netcom how responsive
he is.
Once, I suggested that you read other threads than the ones
you're in. It was a good idea then; and it's an even better
idea today.
--
Rebecca Ore
Rebecca Ore
> In article <m3btpdg...@ogoense.net>,
> Rebecca Ore <rebec...@op.net> wrote:
> >
> > I worked for a non-profit once where a comp guy tipped us that
> > such a trashing was going to take place against company policy
> > that such things be recycled. We got a good number of the
> > computers rescued and when the agency I worked for got their
> > computers, some of them had had memory chips taken out.
> >
> > Putting the sledge hammer to the boxes is a good way to hide
> > theft of internal parts.
>
> Don't think of it as theft, think of it as a person with initiative
> following the company's stated policy of recycling. BTW, it could be
> that the memory was pulled out by the staff and installed in other
> machines at the company, machines that weren't going to be trashed.
> That would have been consistent with the company's recycling policy.
Corporate had a cow when they heard about it. Second, they
were trashing all 486's and lower. The people who did the
recycling scam that Corporate had bought into might have
stolen the memory, too. The scam was that corporations would
donate things and this agency would redistribute things for a
price that was supposed to just cover operating expenses but
which dended up being close to OEM prices for software and not
much of a deal for the non-profits.
--
Rebecca Ore
Rebecca Ore
> chlo...@transport.com (Hans Chloride) writes:
>
> > The school district around here pisses me off anyway. They took a
> > bunch of 386's and 486's, stripped them, smashed them up, and threw
> > them in a dumpster. Which justified them buying a whole bunch of
> > P-133's and up, as "many of the machines we have are obsolete and
> > non-functional". Yeah, when you bounce a machine off the concrete and
> > sledgehammer it, it's not going to function very well, is it? Wonder
> > how many poor people coulda found good use for those machines?
>
> I could/ve used a dozen of 'em. I'm looking at building a
> Beowulf cluseter in my home office.
>
> Why? Because I *can*. 8)
I worked for a non-profit once where a comp guy tipped us that
such a trashing was going to take place against company policy
that such things be recycled. We got a good number of the
computers rescued and when the agency I worked for got their
computers, some of them had had memory chips taken out.
Putting the sledge hammer to the boxes is a good way to hide
theft of internal parts.
--
Rebecca Ore
========= WAS CANCELLED BY =======:
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From: Rebecca Ore <rebec...@op.net>
Newsgroups: news.admin.net-abuse.usenet,alt.test
Subject: Re: [LONG] Re: GOING TO DESTROY NEWSGROUPS
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Rebecca Ore
**
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From: Rebecca Ore <rebec...@op.net>
References: <250798...@none444.yet> <35BC3C11...@jetcafe.org> <35bc4053...@news.wwa.com> <35BCD90D...@jetcafe.org> <Pine.BSI.3.96.980801...@usr10.primenet.com> <35C576F7...@jetcafe.org> <8767ga2...@ibm.net> <35CD0290...@jetcafe.org> <slrn6thfja....@alaceris.ccia.com> <35D9EAE9...@jetcafe.org> <slrn6tk41g....@alaceris.ccia.com> <35da3d4a...@news.wwa.com> <slrn6tmfko....@alaceris.ccia.com> <35dd960...@news.transport.com> <87af4yi...@ibm.net>
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Rebecca Ore
> In article <m3btpdg...@ogoense.net>,
> Rebecca Ore <rebec...@op.net> wrote:
> >
> > I worked for a non-profit once where a comp guy tipped us that
> > such a trashing was going to take place against company policy
> > that such things be recycled. We got a good number of the
> > computers rescued and when the agency I worked for got their
> > computers, some of them had had memory chips taken out.
> >
> > Putting the sledge hammer to the boxes is a good way to hide
> > theft of internal parts.
>
> Don't think of it as theft, think of it as a person with initiative
> following the company's stated policy of recycling. BTW, it could be
> that the memory was pulled out by the staff and installed in other
> machines at the company, machines that weren't going to be trashed.
> That would have been consistent with the company's recycling policy.
Corporate had a cow when they heard about it. Second, they
were trashing all 486's and lower. The people who did the
recycling scam that Corporate had bought into might have
stolen the memory, too. The scam was that corporations would
donate things and this agency would redistribute things for a
price that was supposed to just cover operating expenses but
which dended up being close to OEM prices for software and not
much of a deal for the non-profits.
--
Rebecca Ore
========= WAS CANCELLED BY =======:
Path: ...!news3.bellglobal.com!news1.bellglobal.com!howland.erols.net!news-peer.sprintlink.net!news-backup-west.sprintlink.net!news.sprintlink.net!200.255.253.242!newsfeed.embratel.net.br!NEWS.TELEBAHIA.net.br!ogoense.net!rebecca.ore
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Subject: Re: [LONG] Re: GOING TO DESTROY NEWSGROUPS
From: Rebecca Ore <rebec...@op.net>
References: <250798...@none444.yet> <35dd960...@news.transport.com> <87af4 <m3btpdg...@ogoense.net> <6rmp6j$a...@news-central.tiac.net>
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Rebecca Ore
> The problem comes in that no one has any recourse at all when one is
> censored. How does a person framed for spamming address people when
> they are kicked off an ISP faster than they can react to that? How
> does a blackballed provider (i.e. RBL) get unblackballed? How would
> Sanford Wallace get internet access?
Sanford Wallace has internet service now and a web page with a
discussion group on it that Sanford intends as a common
meeting place for both sides of the email spam issue.
Sanford also regularly posts to nanae.
Re the RBL, the provider talks to Paul Vixie, who, unlike
HipCrime, is publically accessible. Ask Netcom how responsive
he is.
Once, I suggested that you read other threads than the ones
you're in. It was a good idea then; and it's an even better
idea today.
--
Rebecca Ore
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Date: Sun, 23 Aug 1998 02:53:41 -0300
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Subject: Re: [LONG] Re: GOING TO DESTROY NEWSGROUPS
From: Rebecca Ore <rebec...@op.net>
References: <250798...@none444.yet> <35BC3C11...@jetcafe.org> <35bc4053...@news.wwa.com> <35BCD90D...@jetcafe.org> <Pine.BSI.3.96.980801...@usr10.primenet.com> <35C576F7...@jetcafe.org> <8767ga2...@ibm.net> <35CD0290...@jetcafe.org> <6rgbc9$c...@mochi.lava.net> <35DE6B05...@jetcafe.org>
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Charles Demas
Rebecca Ore <rebec...@op.net> wrote:
>
> I worked for a non-profit once where a comp guy tipped us that
> such a trashing was going to take place against company policy
> that such things be recycled. We got a good number of the
> computers rescued and when the agency I worked for got their
> computers, some of them had had memory chips taken out.
>
> Putting the sledge hammer to the boxes is a good way to hide
> theft of internal parts.
Don't think of it as theft, think of it as a person with initiative
following the company's stated policy of recycling. BTW, it could be
that the memory was pulled out by the staff and installed in other
machines at the company, machines that weren't going to be trashed.
That would have been consistent with the company's recycling policy.
I bet that the financial accounting for such a chip recycling effort,
if done, would be a nightmare. Easier to trash the stuff on the books
than to track and document a salvage value after the equipment was
fully depreciated.
Chuck Demas
Needham, Mass.
--
Eat Healthy | _ _ | Nothing would be done at all,
Stay Fit | @ @ | If a man waited to do it so well,
Die Anyway | v | That no one could find fault with it.
de...@tiac.net | \___/ | http://www.tiac.net/users/demas
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Date: Sun, 23 Aug 1998 03:02:19 -0300
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Subject: Re: [LONG] Re: GOING TO DESTROY NEWSGROUPS
From: de...@sunspot.tiac.net (Charles Demas)
References: <250798...@none444.yet> <35dd960...@news.transport.com> <87af4 <m3btpdg...@ogoense.net>
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Dave Hayes
> Dave Hayes <da...@jetcafe.org> mused and hath written:
> >pavanas abludo incusus wrote:
> >> Dave Hayes <da...@jetcafe.org> mused and hath written:
>
> >becomes a private club.
> >
> you believe that only those who have access are human? Where is this
> going?
It should not be a private club. It must not be a private club. If that
is what people are going to do with it, what use is it but to further
the agendas of the club? It can have no real human relavence.
> >> >If you do not have access to the net, you cannot speak there, thus you
> >> >lose your freedom to speak.
> >>
> >> This does violence to the concept of privilege granted of useage of shared
> >> privately owned resources.
> >
> >That concept does violence to the concept of a worldwide many-to-many
> >human communications medium.
>
> The concept as iterated above is an oxymoron. The nature of the
> pre-existing requirments to gain access precludes the majority of the
> humans living on the planet from partaking in said concept.
That can be dealt with, given a pre-existing condition of free speech.
> Is not true that the majority of the humans do not even have access to a
> device as simple as a telephone? Or do you plan to empower them with
> access complete with the hardware, software, and wiring infrastructure
> necessary to bring all humans on the planet to this utopian concept?
I'll do what I can with what I have.
> >"The most effective killfile is your own brain." --Russ Allbery
> You mean setting the big red switch to 0?
As an extrema, yes. There are plenty of other options, however (delete key,
killfiles, looking and going "oh I'm not going to finish reading this",...)
--
Dave Hayes - Altadena CA, USA - da...@jetcafe.org
>>> The opinions expressed above are entirely my own <<<
Freedom Knight of Usenet - http://www.jetcafe.org/~dave/usenet
F x S = k. The product of Freedom and Security is a constant.
-- Larry Niven
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Date: Sun, 23 Aug 1998 03:14:40 -0300
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Subject: Re: [LONG] Re: GOING TO DESTROY NEWSGROUPS
From: Dave Hayes <da...@jetcafe.org>
References: <250798...@none444.yet> <35BC3C11...@jetcafe.org><35bc4053...@news.wwa.com> <35BCD90D...@jetcafe.org> <Pine.BSI.3.96.980801...@usr10.primenet.com> <35C576F7...@jetcafe.org> <8767ga2...@ibm.net> <35CD0290...@jetcafe.org> <slrn6thfja....@alaceris.ccia.com> <35D9EAE9...@jetcafe.org> <slrn6tk41g....@alaceris.ccia.com>
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Dave Hayes
> : access to the net, you cannot speak there, thus you lose your freedom
> : to speak.
>
Does that help?
Not in this case.
The problem comes in that no one has any recourse at all when one is
censored. How does a person framed for spamming address people when
they are kicked off an ISP faster than they can react to that? How
does a blackballed provider (i.e. RBL) get unblackballed? How would
Sanford Wallace get internet access?
When people are backed into a corner, shredded, and left to rot,
the reaction is invariably closer to "destroy it all out of spite"
than "well what did I do to deserve this". Not that the latter question
is even relevant (because maybe they did nothing after all) either.
In the above case, I see that there are people who are backed into a
corner, being tarred and feathered, and being censored for no other
reason than their choice of ISP. These people have no remedy other
than destruction. Knowing Kuan-Yin like I do, I have some compassion
for that. Thus my statement above.
> I'm not playing verbal games with you here - from your discussions with
> Russ, I think I've gleaned a lot about where you're coming from. I
> *do* see what looks to me like a serious disjuncture between your
> thought-out principles and how you're applying them to yourself.
Lots see that. I find it amusing, because I work backwards from
that. If I see a contradiction, I usually presume it's because I don't have
all the data necessary...which happens when you are looking at another
person.
Most people are missing -lots- of data about me. One of the reasons Russ
and I can talk sensibly is because, at some point, Russ -asked- (and politely
even) about missing data. :)
--
Dave Hayes - Altadena CA, USA - da...@jetcafe.org
>>> The opinions expressed above are entirely my own <<<
Freedom Knight of Usenet - http://www.jetcafe.org/~dave/usenet
You may follow one stream.
Realize that it leads to the Ocean.
Do not mistake the stream for the Ocean.
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Subject: Re: [LONG] Re: GOING TO DESTROY NEWSGROUPS
From: Dave Hayes <da...@jetcafe.org>
References: <250798...@none444.yet> <35BC3C11...@jetcafe.org> <35bc4053...@news.wwa.com> <35BCD90D...@jetcafe.org> <Pine.BSI.3.96.980801...@usr10.primenet.com> <35C576F7...@jetcafe.org> <8767ga2...@ibm.net> <35CD0290...@jetcafe.org> <6rgbc9$c...@mochi.lava.net>
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Dave Hayes
> >> Provided that the owners of the resources that enable this ability `to
> >> speak' so permit and condone said abilty whether covertly or overtly.
> >
> >becomes a private club.
>
> membership?
*shrug* At least members get treated like human beings there, unlike
most of the net.
> ** It's easy to be idealistic with other people's money **
But it's not easy to do anything idealistic without money. And, of
course, the difficulty level sure does influence it's worth. (Not.)
--
Dave Hayes - Altadena CA, USA - da...@jetcafe.org
>>> The opinions expressed above are entirely my own <<<
Freedom Knight of Usenet - http://www.jetcafe.org/~dave/usenet
"We should never live in a world where dreams are rarer than money."
-Mathhew Brodrick
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Subject: Re: [LONG] Re: GOING TO DESTROY NEWSGROUPS
From: Dave Hayes <da...@jetcafe.org>
References: <250798...@none444.yet> <35BC3C11...@jetcafe.org><35bc4053...@news.wwa.com> <35BCD90D...@jetcafe.org> <Pine.BSI.3.96.980801...@usr10.primenet.com> <35C576F7...@jetcafe.org> <8767ga2...@ibm.net> <35CD0290...@jetcafe.org> <slrn6thfja....@alaceris.ccia.com> <35D9EAE9...@jetcafe.org> <35ed086b...@209.242.64.104>
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Dave Hayes
> On Tue, 18 Aug 1998, Dave Hayes wrote:
> > pavanas abludo incusus wrote:
> > > >
> > > >If you have access to the net, you can speak there.
> > >
> > > speak' so permit and condone said abilty whether covertly or overtly.
> >
> > If they don't, the net loses usefulness as a communications medium and
> > becomes a private club.
>
> communications medium... private BBSs, private mailing-lists...
Sure, until you get kicked out or blackballed. Sometimes this occurs
arbitrarily.
> What about the "hacks" list, Dave? A "private club" dedicated to removing
> the "usefulness of the net as a communications medium"?
*shrug* Ask them, not me. I'm not a member of that club.
> > > >If you do not have access to the net, you cannot speak there, thus you
> > > >lose your freedom to speak.
> > >
> > > This does violence to the concept of privilege granted of useage of shared
> > > privately owned resources.
> >
> > That concept does violence to the concept of a worldwide many-to-many
> > human communications medium.
>
So?
--
Dave Hayes - Altadena CA, USA - da...@jetcafe.org
>>> The opinions expressed above are entirely my own <<<
Freedom Knight of Usenet - http://www.jetcafe.org/~dave/usenet
Merely doing good to the evil may be just like doing evil to the good.
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Subject: Re: [LONG] Re: GOING TO DESTROY NEWSGROUPS
From: Dave Hayes <da...@jetcafe.org>
References: <250798...@none444.yet> <35BC3C11...@jetcafe.org><35bc4053...@news.wwa.com> <35BCD90D...@jetcafe.org> <Pine.BSI.3.96.980801...@usr10.primenet.com> <35C576F7...@jetcafe.org> <8767ga2...@ibm.net> <35CD0290...@jetcafe.org> <slrn6thfja....@alaceris.ccia.com> <35D9EAE9...@jetcafe.org> <Pine.BSI.3.96.980818...@pentagon.io.com>
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Dave Hayes
Ugh.
I disagree.
--
Dave Hayes - Altadena CA, USA - da...@jetcafe.org
>>> The opinions expressed above are entirely my own <<<
Freedom Knight of Usenet - http://www.jetcafe.org/~dave/usenet
A man was claiming to be a Prophet. He was taken before the Church.
"Prophets reveal miracles," said the Minister. "What is yours?"
The man replied: "I have the ability to read thoughts. Right now
you are all thinking that I am lying."
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Subject: Re: [LONG] Re: GOING TO DESTROY NEWSGROUPS
From: Dave Hayes <da...@jetcafe.org>
References: <250798...@none444.yet> <35BC3C11...@jetcafe.org> <35bc4053...@news.wwa.com> <35BCD90D...@jetcafe.org> <Pine.BSI.3.96.980801...@usr10.primenet.com> <35C576F7...@jetcafe.org> <Qzqx1.2552$3G4.5...@news21.bellglobal.com> <35CD03C0...@jetcafe.org> <35d952a6...@news.alt.net> <35e1a5c6...@209.242.64.104> <35D9EC9D...@jetcafe.org> <35e94f7a...@209.242.64.104>
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Dave Hayes
So?
--
Dave Hayes - Altadena CA, USA - da...@jetcafe.org
>>> The opinions expressed above are entirely my own <<<
Freedom Knight of Usenet - http://www.jetcafe.org/~dave/usenet
Merely doing good to the evil may be just like doing evil to the good.
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Subject: Re: [LONG] Re: GOING TO DESTROY NEWSGROUPS
From: Dave Hayes <da...@jetcafe.org>
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Date: Sun, 23 Aug 1998 15:42:15 -0300
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Subject: REPOST: Re: [LONG] Re: GOING TO DESTROY NEWSGROUPS
From: Dave Hayes <da...@jetcafe.org>
References: <250798...@none444.yet> <35BC3C11...@jetcafe.org><35bc4053...@news.wwa.com> <35BCD90D...@jetcafe.org> <Pine.BSI.3.96.980801...@usr10.primenet.com> <35C576F7...@jetcafe.org> <8767ga2...@ibm.net> <35CD0290...@jetcafe.org> <slrn6thfja....@alaceris.ccia.com> <35D9EAE9...@jetcafe.org> <Pine.BSI.3.96.980818...@pentagon.io.com>
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Dave Hayes
> Dave Hayes (da...@jetcafe.org) wrote:
> : If you have access to the net, you can speak there. If you do not have
> : access to the net, you cannot speak there, thus you lose your freedom
> : to speak.
>
Does that help?
Not in this case.
--
Dave Hayes - Altadena CA, USA - da...@jetcafe.org
>>> The opinions expressed above are entirely my own <<<
Freedom Knight of Usenet - http://www.jetcafe.org/~dave/usenet
You may follow one stream.
Realize that it leads to the Ocean.
Do not mistake the stream for the Ocean.
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Date: Sun, 23 Aug 1998 03:14:15 -0300
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Subject: Re: [LONG] Re: GOING TO DESTROY NEWSGROUPS
From: Dave Hayes <da...@jetcafe.org>
========= WAS CANCELLED BY =======:
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Date: Sun, 23 Aug 1998 15:43:28 -0300
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Subject: REPOST: Re: [LONG] Re: GOING TO DESTROY NEWSGROUPS
From: Dave Hayes <da...@jetcafe.org>
References: <250798...@none444.yet> <35BC3C11...@jetcafe.org> <35bc4053...@news.wwa.com> <35BCD90D...@jetcafe.org> <Pine.BSI.3.96.980801...@usr10.primenet.com> <35C576F7...@jetcafe.org> <8767ga2...@ibm.net> <35CD0290...@jetcafe.org> <6rgbc9$c...@mochi.lava.net>
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Dave Hayes
> Dave Hayes <da...@jetcafe.org> wrote:
> >pavanas abludo incusus wrote:
> >> Provided that the owners of the resources that enable this ability `to
> >> speak' so permit and condone said abilty whether covertly or overtly.
> >
> >If they don't, the net loses usefulness as a communications medium and
> >becomes a private club.
>
> membership?
*shrug* At least members get treated like human beings there, unlike
most of the net.
> ** It's easy to be idealistic with other people's money **
But it's not easy to do anything idealistic without money. And, of
course, the difficulty level sure does influence it's worth. (Not.)
--
Dave Hayes - Altadena CA, USA - da...@jetcafe.org
>>> The opinions expressed above are entirely my own <<<
Freedom Knight of Usenet - http://www.jetcafe.org/~dave/usenet
"We should never live in a world where dreams are rarer than money."
-Mathhew Brodrick
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Date: Sun, 23 Aug 1998 03:14:27 -0300
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Subject: Re: [LONG] Re: GOING TO DESTROY NEWSGROUPS
From: Dave Hayes <da...@jetcafe.org>
========= WAS CANCELLED BY =======:
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Date: Sun, 23 Aug 1998 15:42:25 -0300
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Subject: REPOST: Re: [LONG] Re: GOING TO DESTROY NEWSGROUPS
From: Dave Hayes <da...@jetcafe.org>
References: <250798...@none444.yet> <35BC3C11...@jetcafe.org><35bc4053...@news.wwa.com> <35BCD90D...@jetcafe.org> <Pine.BSI.3.96.980801...@usr10.primenet.com> <35C576F7...@jetcafe.org> <8767ga2...@ibm.net> <35CD0290...@jetcafe.org> <slrn6thfja....@alaceris.ccia.com> <35D9EAE9...@jetcafe.org> <35ed086b...@209.242.64.104>
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Dave Hayes
Ugh.
I disagree.
--
Dave Hayes - Altadena CA, USA - da...@jetcafe.org
>>> The opinions expressed above are entirely my own <<<
Freedom Knight of Usenet - http://www.jetcafe.org/~dave/usenet
A man was claiming to be a Prophet. He was taken before the Church.
"Prophets reveal miracles," said the Minister. "What is yours?"
The man replied: "I have the ability to read thoughts. Right now
you are all thinking that I am lying."
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Date: Sun, 23 Aug 1998 03:15:04 -0300
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Subject: Re: [LONG] Re: GOING TO DESTROY NEWSGROUPS
From: Dave Hayes <da...@jetcafe.org>
========= WAS CANCELLED BY =======:
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Date: Sun, 23 Aug 1998 15:41:44 -0300
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Subject: REPOST: Re: [LONG] Re: GOING TO DESTROY NEWSGROUPS
From: Dave Hayes <da...@jetcafe.org>
References: <250798...@none444.yet> <35BC3C11...@jetcafe.org> <35bc4053...@news.wwa.com> <35BCD90D...@jetcafe.org> <Pine.BSI.3.96.980801...@usr10.primenet.com> <35C576F7...@jetcafe.org> <Qzqx1.2552$3G4.5...@news21.bellglobal.com> <35CD03C0...@jetcafe.org> <35d952a6...@news.alt.net> <35e1a5c6...@209.242.64.104> <35D9EC9D...@jetcafe.org> <35e94f7a...@209.242.64.104>
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Dave Hayes
> Dave Hayes <da...@jetcafe.org> mused and hath written:
> >pavanas abludo incusus wrote:
> >> Dave Hayes <da...@jetcafe.org> mused and hath written:
>
> >becomes a private club.
> >
> you believe that only those who have access are human? Where is this
> going?
It should not be a private club. It must not be a private club. If that
is what people are going to do with it, what use is it but to further
the agendas of the club? It can have no real human relavence.
> >> >If you do not have access to the net, you cannot speak there, thus you
> >> >lose your freedom to speak.
> >>
> >> This does violence to the concept of privilege granted of useage of shared
> >> privately owned resources.
> >
> >That concept does violence to the concept of a worldwide many-to-many
> >human communications medium.
>
> The concept as iterated above is an oxymoron. The nature of the
> pre-existing requirments to gain access precludes the majority of the
> humans living on the planet from partaking in said concept.
That can be dealt with, given a pre-existing condition of free speech.
> Is not true that the majority of the humans do not even have access to a
> device as simple as a telephone? Or do you plan to empower them with
> access complete with the hardware, software, and wiring infrastructure
> necessary to bring all humans on the planet to this utopian concept?
I'll do what I can with what I have.
> >"The most effective killfile is your own brain." --Russ Allbery
> You mean setting the big red switch to 0?
As an extrema, yes. There are plenty of other options, however (delete key,
killfiles, looking and going "oh I'm not going to finish reading this",...)
--
Dave Hayes - Altadena CA, USA - da...@jetcafe.org
>>> The opinions expressed above are entirely my own <<<
Freedom Knight of Usenet - http://www.jetcafe.org/~dave/usenet
F x S = k. The product of Freedom and Security is a constant.
-- Larry Niven
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Subject: Re: [LONG] Re: GOING TO DESTROY NEWSGROUPS
From: Dave Hayes <da...@jetcafe.org>
========= WAS CANCELLED BY =======:
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Date: Sun, 23 Aug 1998 15:44:08 -0300
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Subject: REPOST: Re: [LONG] Re: GOING TO DESTROY NEWSGROUPS
From: Dave Hayes <da...@jetcafe.org>
References: <250798...@none444.yet> <35BC3C11...@jetcafe.org><35bc4053...@news.wwa.com> <35BCD90D...@jetcafe.org> <Pine.BSI.3.96.980801...@usr10.primenet.com> <35C576F7...@jetcafe.org> <8767ga2...@ibm.net> <35CD0290...@jetcafe.org> <slrn6thfja....@alaceris.ccia.com> <35D9EAE9...@jetcafe.org> <slrn6tk41g....@alaceris.ccia.com>
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Dave Hayes
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From: Dave Hayes <da...@jetcafe.org>
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Dave Hayes
> >> Provided that the owners of the resources that enable this ability `to
> >> speak' so permit and condone said abilty whether covertly or overtly.
> >
> >becomes a private club.
>
> membership?
*shrug* At least members get treated like human beings there, unlike
most of the net.
> ** It's easy to be idealistic with other people's money **
But it's not easy to do anything idealistic without money. And, of
course, the difficulty level sure does influence it's worth. (Not.)
--
Dave Hayes - Altadena CA, USA - da...@jetcafe.org
>>> The opinions expressed above are entirely my own <<<
Freedom Knight of Usenet - http://www.jetcafe.org/~dave/usenet
"We should never live in a world where dreams are rarer than money."
-Mathhew Brodrick
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Subject: Re: [LONG] Re: GOING TO DESTROY NEWSGROUPS
From: Dave Hayes <da...@jetcafe.org>
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Subject: REPOST: Re: [LONG] Re: GOING TO DESTROY NEWSGROUPS
From: Dave Hayes <da...@jetcafe.org>
References: <250798...@none444.yet> <35BC3C11...@jetcafe.org><35bc4053...@news.wwa.com> <35BCD90D...@jetcafe.org> <Pine.BSI.3.96.980801...@usr10.primenet.com> <35C576F7...@jetcafe.org> <8767ga2...@ibm.net> <35CD0290...@jetcafe.org> <slrn6thfja....@alaceris.ccia.com> <35D9EAE9...@jetcafe.org> <35ed086b...@209.242.64.104>
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Dave Hayes
> : access to the net, you cannot speak there, thus you lose your freedom
> : to speak.
>
Does that help?
Not in this case.
--
Dave Hayes - Altadena CA, USA - da...@jetcafe.org
>>> The opinions expressed above are entirely my own <<<
Freedom Knight of Usenet - http://www.jetcafe.org/~dave/usenet
You may follow one stream.
Realize that it leads to the Ocean.
Do not mistake the stream for the Ocean.
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Subject: Re: [LONG] Re: GOING TO DESTROY NEWSGROUPS
From: Dave Hayes <da...@jetcafe.org>
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Date: Sun, 23 Aug 1998 15:43:28 -0300
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Subject: REPOST: Re: [LONG] Re: GOING TO DESTROY NEWSGROUPS
From: Dave Hayes <da...@jetcafe.org>
References: <250798...@none444.yet> <35BC3C11...@jetcafe.org> <35bc4053...@news.wwa.com> <35BCD90D...@jetcafe.org> <Pine.BSI.3.96.980801...@usr10.primenet.com> <35C576F7...@jetcafe.org> <8767ga2...@ibm.net> <35CD0290...@jetcafe.org> <6rgbc9$c...@mochi.lava.net>
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From: Dave Hayes <da...@jetcafe.org>
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Dave Hayes
> On Tue, 18 Aug 1998, Dave Hayes wrote:
> > pavanas abludo incusus wrote:
> > > >
> > > >If you have access to the net, you can speak there.
> > >
> > > speak' so permit and condone said abilty whether covertly or overtly.
> >
> > If they don't, the net loses usefulness as a communications medium and
> > becomes a private club.
>
> communications medium... private BBSs, private mailing-lists...
Sure, until you get kicked out or blackballed. Sometimes this occurs
arbitrarily.
> What about the "hacks" list, Dave? A "private club" dedicated to removing
> the "usefulness of the net as a communications medium"?
*shrug* Ask them, not me. I'm not a member of that club.
> > > >If you do not have access to the net, you cannot speak there, thus you
> > > >lose your freedom to speak.
> > >
> > > This does violence to the concept of privilege granted of useage of shared
> > > privately owned resources.
> >
> > That concept does violence to the concept of a worldwide many-to-many
> > human communications medium.
>
So?
--
Dave Hayes - Altadena CA, USA - da...@jetcafe.org
>>> The opinions expressed above are entirely my own <<<
Freedom Knight of Usenet - http://www.jetcafe.org/~dave/usenet
Merely doing good to the evil may be just like doing evil to the good.
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Date: Sun, 23 Aug 1998 03:14:54 -0300
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Subject: Re: [LONG] Re: GOING TO DESTROY NEWSGROUPS
From: Dave Hayes <da...@jetcafe.org>
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Date: Sun, 23 Aug 1998 15:42:15 -0300
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Subject: REPOST: Re: [LONG] Re: GOING TO DESTROY NEWSGROUPS
From: Dave Hayes <da...@jetcafe.org>
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From: Dave Hayes <da...@jetcafe.org>
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