Sam Varshavchik joins Jews for Jesus
Sam
I've joined Jews for Jesus. I no longer consider myself a Jew. I was very
ashamed of being Jew when I was growing up in Odessa, Ukraine. Now I've washed
off my Jewishness with the Holy Water. I am a prod anti-Semitic Jew-hater.
Hitler was right!
---Semyon Varshavchik
Double Precision, Inc.
PO Box 668
Greenwood Lake, NY 10925
(500) 447 3696
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Ken Miller
And you're also an asshole,,,,, so why broadcast it on the net??
Henrietta Thomas
In soc.culture.russian on Sun, 29 Mar 1998 14:10:52 GMT, k...@pipeline.com
(Ken Miller) wrote:
>And you're also an asshole,,,,, so why broadcast it on the net??
It's a troll, Mr. Miller. It's a troll.
Followups to poster to end this thread.
My apologies to soc.culture.jewish.
Henrietta Thomas
h...@wwa.com
-------------------------------------------------
>"Sam" <sam...@dpinc.ml.morgue> wrote:
[offensive stuff snipped]
Shalom Farber
If you are no longer a Jew then you CANNOT be A Jew for Jesus. You are
simp[ly a Christian. If you hate the Jewsa as much as you say then are also
not a good Christian. Good Christians are not supposed to hate anyone.
The holy water is wasted on you. Go back to Odessa.
Sam <sam...@dpinc.ml.morgue> wrote in article
<67547...@examiner.concentric.net>...
Eugenius
Once upon a time "Shalom Farber" <shl...@iafrica.com> wrote:
>If you are no longer a Jew then you CANNOT be A Jew for Jesus. You are
>simp[ly a Christian. If you hate the Jewsa as much as you say then are also
>not a good Christian. Good Christians are not supposed to hate anyone.
>The holy water is wasted on you. Go back to Odessa.
No thanx, we don't need him in Ukraine as well.
>Sam <sam...@dpinc.ml.morgue> wrote:
>> I've joined Jews for Jesus. I no longer consider myself a Jew. I was
>> very ashamed of being Jew when I was growing up in Odessa, Ukraine.
>> Now I've washed
============================
Eugenius
UKRAINE: the Homeland Page
http://www.wu-wien.ac.at/groups/ukraine_hp
Ukrayins'ka Ideya page (in Ukrainian)
http://www.wu-wien.ac.at/groups/ukraine_hp/idea
Download Area
http://www.wu-wien.ac.at/groups/ukraine_hp/download
____________________________________________________
Lyle Rooff
Eugenius wrote in message <6fm8h1$i...@cantine.wu-wien.ac.at>...
>Once upon a time "Shalom Farber" <shl...@iafrica.com> wrote:
>
>>>>The holy water is wasted on you. Go back to Odessa.
>
>No thanx, we don't need him in Ukraine as well.
>
Perhaps we might all banish him to alt.troll or alt.wacko? ;-)
Eliyahu Rooff
Grigori Khaskin
Sam (sam...@dpinc.ml.morgue) wrote:
: I've joined Jews for Jesus. I no longer consider myself a Jew. I was very
: ashamed of being Jew when I was growing up in Odessa, Ukraine. Now I've washed
: Hitler was right!
I do not know who the hell is Sam, but for sure he is having and will have
a gooood time in the company of other self-hating J*WS who post there -
Two of them as stupid as he, cause do not even changed their names from
Michael and Daniel - Michael Horowitz (natio...@juno.com) and Daniel
Lichtenshtein (Dan Leonik, dle...@accesscomm.net).
They will have a good time praying to deceased J*W and his J*ISH gang in
chirch, than beer together with other not soooo educated chirchgoers,
pseudo-aryan J*WS - - Bzdiuk Tavishman (doc_t...@bigfoot.com),
Mr.Hirshman (HerrMann, our...@hotmail.com), Roger (Lying) Alexandrovitch
(rla...@worldnet.att.net) East-European con-artist Wasserman (Vincent at
CyberGate, patriot...@usa.net) and weeped because of luck of
funds under the picture of kept in KGB archives and now on sale - lower
jaw and boolet pierced part of Temple belonged to their suicidal pederastic
master Shicklegruber.
What a guys!
G.K.
Susan Cohen
Ken Miller wrote:
> And you're also an asshole,,,,, so why broadcast it on the net??
The interestingthing is that he says "Jews for Jesus" & yet categorically denies his
Jewishness - something that they never do.
> "Sam" <sam...@dpinc.ml.morgue> wrote:
>
> >I've joined Jews for Jesus. I no longer consider myself a Jew. I was very
> >ashamed of being Jew when I was growing up in Odessa, Ukraine. Now I've washed
> >off my Jewishness with the Holy Water. I am a prod anti-Semitic Jew-hater.
> >
> >Hitler was right!
> >
Dark Phoenix
>> "Sam" <sam...@dpinc.ml.morgue> wrote:
>>
>> >I've joined Jews for Jesus. I no longer consider myself a Jew. I was
very
>> >ashamed of being Jew when I was growing up in Odessa, Ukraine. Now I've
> washed
>> >off my Jewishness with the Holy Water. I am a prod anti-Semitic
Jew-hater.
>> >
>> >Hitler was right!
>> >
In article <351FBF79...@smart.net>, Susan Cohen <ze...@smart.net> wrote:
>
>The interestingthing is that he says "Jews for Jesus" & yet categorically
> denies his
>Jewishness - something that they never do.
>
Look, this guy Semyon probably just left his terminal unguarded and some
jokester decided to post a few articles in his name. They're obviously trolls;
you can't possibly expect them to follow any particular logic or make any
sense.
-- Ali.
Amazon
Sam wrote:
>
> I've joined Jews for Jesus. I no longer consider myself a Jew. I was > very ashamed of being Jew when I was growing up in Odessa, Ukraine.
That is strange as there are many Jews in Odesa and even the mayor of
Odesa is a Jew today in free Ukraine.
> Now I've washed
> off my Jewishness with the Holy Water. I am a prod anti-Semitic > Jew-hater.
I believe that you are a liar as I am very familiar with Jews for Jesus
and they are a very honorable Messianic Jewish organization which is
trying to reach out to the Jewish people with the message of the Saviour
Jesus Christ who is the One and Only Saviour of Mankind.
> Hitler was right!
You are very sick and your saying the above proves that you are neither
a Christian nor a member of Jews for Jesus.
> ---Semyon Varshavchik
> Double Precision, Inc.
> PO Box 668
> Greenwood Lake, NY 10925
> (500) 447 3696
Dan K.
Don Stockman
In nyc.general Amazon <ama...@earthlink.net> wrote:
> I believe that you are a liar as I am very familiar with Jews for Jesus
> and they are a very honorable Messianic Jewish organization which is
> trying to reach out to the Jewish people with the message of the Saviour
> Jesus Christ who is the One and Only Saviour of Mankind.
There are many things that can be said about Jews for Jesus, but
"honorable" is about the very last adjective I would think should apply.
Jews for Jesus attempts to lure young adults on college campuses
who have had poor Jewish educations into their so-called "Jewish"
services, and then slam them with the Jesus crap.
Soviet emigres are especially easy pickings. At least the standard
Christian religions are more "honorable" since they do not hide their
intentions, or attempt specifically to prey on these young adults.
Amazon
Don Stockman wrote:
>
> In nyc.general Amazon <ama...@earthlink.net> wrote:
>
> > I believe that you are a liar as I am very familiar with Jews for Jesus
> > and they are a very honorable Messianic Jewish organization which is
> > trying to reach out to the Jewish people with the message of the Saviour
> > Jesus Christ who is the One and Only Saviour of Mankind.
>
> There are many things that can be said about Jews for Jesus, but
> "honorable" is about the very last adjective I would think should apply.
Everyone is entitled to his/her opinion, but not every opinion is
based on rational facts.
> Jews for Jesus attempts to lure young adults on college > campuses
> who have had poor Jewish educations into their so-called "Jewish"
> services, and then slam them with the Jesus crap.
What you call "Jesus crap" is what the soviets tried to destroy
in their former Evil Empire, but the Lord Jesus Christ prevailed
and He brought that Evil Empire down and the whole world to this
day has still not been able to comprehend it because they refuse
to see that God is real and does intervene in the affairs of man.
Today the Gospel is once again preached throughout the former
Evil Empire and all of its liberated former colonies.
And Jesus Christ is still Lord!
And the BEST is yet to come!!!
> Soviet emigres are especially easy pickings. At least the standard
> Christian religions are more "honorable" since they do not hide their
> intentions, or attempt specifically to prey on these young adults.
AFAIK, J4J do not try to hide anything, they openly preach the Gospel of
Jesus Christ and do not try to win "converts" for themselves, but for
the whole Christian Church. AFAIK, they are a missionary organization
and are not a denomination, they encourage people to go to any sound
Christian Church of their choice.
Dan K.
Don Stockman
In nyc.general Amazon <ama...@earthlink.net> wrote:
> > There are many things that can be said about Jews for Jesus, but
> > "honorable" is about the very last adjective I would think should apply.
> Everyone is entitled to his/her opinion, but not every opinion is
> based on rational facts.
Mine is based on personal experience, on seeing new Jewish Russian
immigrants whose heritage has been stolen from them by these bloodsuckers.
It's based on seeing advertisings for "Passover Seders" in Russian
neighborhoods, by J4J vermin who pretend that they are holding an open
Passover Seder, but it is, in reality, a front to lure these Jews in.
> > Jews for Jesus attempts to lure young adults on college > campuses
> > who have had poor Jewish educations into their so-called "Jewish"
> > services, and then slam them with the Jesus crap.
> What you call "Jesus crap" is what the soviets tried to destroy
> in their former Evil Empire, but the Lord Jesus Christ prevailed
> and He brought that Evil Empire down and the whole world to this
The Soviets tried to destroy all religions, but that gives your
Jesus followers no special right to prey on others, by falsely pretending
to be something else. Have at least the honesty of standard Christian
missionaries, who do not hide the coattails of their so-called God.
> > Soviet emigres are especially easy pickings. At least the standard
> > Christian religions are more "honorable" since they do not hide their
> > intentions, or attempt specifically to prey on these young adults.
> AFAIK, J4J do not try to hide anything, they openly preach the Gospel of
> Jesus Christ and do not try to win "converts" for themselves, but for
> the whole Christian Church. AFAIK, they are a missionary organization
> and are not a denomination, they encourage people to go to any sound
> Christian Church of their choice.
Hang around a college campus sometime and see for yourself. That
is, of course, if you are not one of them yourself doing the J4J thing.
Amazon
Don Stockman wrote:
>
> In nyc.general Amazon <ama...@earthlink.net> wrote:
>
> > > There are many things that can be said about Jews for Jesus, but
> > > "honorable" is about the very last adjective I would think should apply.
>
> > Everyone is entitled to his/her opinion, but not every opinion is
> > based on rational facts.
>
> Mine is based on personal experience, on seeing new Jewish Russian
> immigrants whose heritage has been stolen from them by these bloodsuckers.
You mean the Soviet Russians did not steal the Russian Jews
Jewish heritage?
> It's based on seeing advertisings for "Passover Seders" in Russian
> neighborhoods, by J4J vermin who pretend that they are holding an open
> Passover Seder, but it is, in reality, a front to lure these Jews in.
Why don't you go and visit this Passover Seder and find out what they
will be doing and saying before making a judgement. You might find out
that Jesus Christ is the Passover lamb.
> > > Jews for Jesus attempts to lure young adults on college > campuses
> > > who have had poor Jewish educations into their so-called "Jewish"
> > > services, and then slam them with the Jesus crap.
>
> > What you call "Jesus crap" is what the soviets tried to destroy
> > in their former Evil Empire, but the Lord Jesus Christ prevailed
> > and He brought that Evil Empire down and the whole world to this
>
> The Soviets tried to destroy all religions, but that gives your
> Jesus followers no special right to prey on others,
What you call "preying" is not preying at all, but witnessing to their
Jewish brethren that Jesus Christ is the Jewish Messiah and the true
Passover lamb. Remember, Jesus came as a Jew to the Jews first and to
the Gentiles also, but when a person whether he be Jew or Gentile
receives Christ and becomes a Christian, then in Christ he becomes a new
Creation, a son of God in Christ. That is the meaning of being born
again as symbolized by baptism. BTW, after Christ came, the *Chosen
People* are those who have received Christ as their Saviour and Messiah,
a Jew who refuses to accept Christ is no more than a Gentile and is not
a member of the Chosen People.
> by falsely pretending to be something else.
Every time I have seen the Jews for Jesus, they very clearly broadcast
that they are Jews for Jesus and do not try to hide that fact. AFAIK
they clearly tell Jews that Jesus is the Messiah of the Jews and that
Jews need to accept Him for their Salvation.
He is risen, He is not dead.
> Have at least the honesty of standard Christian
> missionaries, who do not hide the coattails of their so-called God.
AFAIK the J4J do honestly winess their faith in Jesus as the Messiah of
the Jews, just as the Apostle Paul, Peter, Andrew and all the rest of
the Apostles and disciples did.
If you think about it, *all the first Christians were Jews*.
> > > Soviet emigres are especially easy pickings. At least the standard
> > > Christian religions are more "honorable" since they do not hide their
> > > intentions, or attempt specifically to prey on these young adults.
>
> > AFAIK, J4J do not try to hide anything, they openly preach the Gospel of
> > Jesus Christ and do not try to win "converts" for themselves, but for
> > the whole Christian Church. AFAIK, they are a missionary organization
> > and are not a denomination, they encourage people to go to any sound
> > Christian Church of their choice.
> Hang around a college campus sometime and see for yourself. That
> is, of course, if you are not one of them yourself doing the J4J > thing.
If what you mean by the "J4J thing" the witnessing to Jewish people
about Jesus Christ, the Messiah of Jews and Gentiles, then they are
doing what God called them to do IMHO.
Dan K.
karen hohne
Amazon wrote:
***
> What you call "preying" is not preying at all, but witnessing to their
> Jewish brethren that Jesus Christ is the Jewish Messiah and the true
> Passover lamb. Remember, Jesus came as a Jew to the Jews first and to
> the Gentiles also, but when a person whether he be Jew or Gentile
> receives Christ and becomes a Christian, then in Christ he becomes a new
> Creation, a son of God in Christ. That is the meaning of being born
> again as symbolized by baptism. BTW, after Christ came, the *Chosen
> People* are those who have received Christ as their Saviour and Messiah,
> a Jew who refuses to accept Christ is no more than a Gentile and is not
> a member of the Chosen People.
>
Guess what? This is a Jewish Newsgroup, not a Xtian one. Get out.
Karen H.
schier
Sam wrote:
> I've joined Jews for Jesus. I no longer consider myself a Jew. I was very
> ashamed of being Jew when I was growing up in Odessa, Ukraine. Now I've washed
> off my Jewishness with the Holy Water. I am a prod anti-Semitic Jew-hater.
>
> Hitler was right!
>
> ---Semyon Varshavchik
Check the NutScum site for more info regarding this loser
Yitzchak
> Double Precision, Inc.
> PO Box 668
> Greenwood Lake, NY 10925
> (500) 447 3696
>
Susan Cohen
Amazon wrote:
> AFAIK, J4J do not try to hide anything, they openly preach the Gospel of
> Jesus Christ and do not try to win "converts" for themselves, but for
> the whole Christian Church. AFAIK, they are a missionary organization
> and are not a denomination, they encourage people to go to any sound
> Christian Church of their choice.
You are sadly mistaken. They pretend to be the true Jews, that in order to be
completely Jewish one must worship Jesus, that Jesus was the Messiah accoridng
to Jewish tradition - none of which is true. They target the ignorant, &
especially ignorant Jews.
Susan
Susan Cohen
Amazon wrote:
> Don Stockman wrote:
> >
> > In nyc.general Amazon <ama...@earthlink.net> wrote:
> >
> > > > There are many things that can be said about Jews for Jesus, but
> > > > "honorable" is about the very last adjective I would think should apply.
> >
> > > Everyone is entitled to his/her opinion, but not every opinion is
> > > based on rational facts.
> >
> > Mine is based on personal experience, on seeing new Jewish Russian
> > immigrants whose heritage has been stolen from them by these bloodsuckers.
>
> You mean the Soviet Russians did not steal the Russian Jews
> Jewish heritage?
You snipped where he said they had tried to destroy all religions.
In fact, he said:
The Soviets tried to destroy all religions, but that gives your
Jesus followers no special right to prey on others, by falsely pretending
to be something else. Have at least the honesty of standard Christian
missionaries, who do not hide the coattails of their so-called God.
> > It's based on seeing advertisings for "Passover Seders" in Russian
> > neighborhoods, by J4J vermin who pretend that they are holding an open
> > Passover Seder, but it is, in reality, a front to lure these Jews in.
>
> Why don't you go and visit this Passover Seder and find out what they
> will be doing and saying before making a judgement.
Because Jews are not allowed to go to religious services of other religions.
> You might find out
> that Jesus Christ is the Passover lamb.
Except that we already know that this is not so, that a human being is not an
acceptable sacrifice.
> > > > Jews for Jesus attempts to lure young adults on college > campuses
> > > > who have had poor Jewish educations into their so-called "Jewish"
> > > > services, and then slam them with the Jesus crap.
> >
> > > What you call "Jesus crap" is what the soviets tried to destroy
> > > in their former Evil Empire, but the Lord Jesus Christ prevailed
> > > and He brought that Evil Empire down and the whole world to this
> >
> > The Soviets tried to destroy all religions, but that gives your
> > Jesus followers no special right to prey on others,
>
> What you call "preying" is not preying at all, but witnessing to their
> Jewish brethren that Jesus Christ is the Jewish Messiah and the true
> Passover lamb.
And what you call "witnessing" everyone else calls "proselytizing" or "preying."
> Remember, Jesus came as a Jew to the Jews first and to
> the Gentiles also, but when a person whether he be Jew or Gentile
> receives Christ and becomes a Christian, then in Christ he becomes a new
> Creation, a son of God in Christ.
The worst part about you people is your arrogance. We have just as much right to
believe that "Once a Jew, Always a Jew," & that any deviant beliefs to this notion
are unimportant.
> That is the meaning of being born
> again as symbolized by baptism.
Something else you tried to co-opt from us - the mikveh.
> BTW, after Christ came, the *Chosen
> People* are those who have received Christ as their Saviour and Messiah,
> a Jew who refuses to accept Christ is no more than a Gentile and is not
> a member of the Chosen People.
I'm sure you wish this, but this is not so, either. It only proves your jealousy &
wanting to co-opt our religoin for yourself.
> > by falsely pretending to be something else.
>
> Every time I have seen the Jews for Jesus, they very clearly broadcast
> that they are Jews for Jesus and do not try to hide that fact. AFAIK
> they clearly tell Jews that Jesus is the Messiah of the Jews and that
> Jews need to accept Him for their Salvation.
> He is risen, He is not dead.
As I have said before, they pretend that Jesus is a loigcal choice for Jews,when it
isn't so. Anyone who says so has no knowledge of Judaism whatsover. That's how they
get their "converts."
> > Have at least the honesty of standard Christian
> > missionaries, who do not hide the coattails of their so-called God.
>
> AFAIK the J4J do honestly winess their faith in Jesus as the Messiah of
> the Jews, just as the Apostle Paul, Peter, Andrew and all the rest of
> the Apostles and disciples did.
> If you think about it, *all the first Christians were Jews*.
So? You're not proving anything, except that the first Christians were heretcs &/or
apostates (whichever).
> > > > Soviet emigres are especially easy pickings. At least the standard
> > > > Christian religions are more "honorable" since they do not hide their
> > > > intentions, or attempt specifically to prey on these young adults.
> >
> > > AFAIK, J4J do not try to hide anything, they openly preach the Gospel of
> > > Jesus Christ and do not try to win "converts" for themselves, but for
> > > the whole Christian Church. AFAIK, they are a missionary organization
> > > and are not a denomination, they encourage people to go to any sound
> > > Christian Church of their choice.
>
> > Hang around a college campus sometime and see for yourself. That
> > is, of course, if you are not one of them yourself doing the J4J > thing.
>
> If what you mean by the "J4J thing" the witnessing to Jewish people
> about Jesus Christ, the Messiah of Jews and Gentiles, then they are
> doing what God called them to do IMHO.
If you mean by "witnessing" that they're trying to get Jews to believe in Jesus,
then they are lying & spreading disinformation on what Judaism is.
Susan
PG
You are just a moron. Y'haven't been a Jew neither in Ukraine, nor here in
USA. You just took opportuninty using help of Jewish people of USA to
emmigrate out of poor Ukraine. But remember, creature, you are not even
antisemite, I doubt if you know what it is at all.
Koziol ty voniuchuij.
schier wrote in message <35287B07...@cityline.ru>...
Amazon
Susan Cohen wrote:
>
> Amazon wrote:
>
> > AFAIK, J4J do not try to hide anything, they openly preach the Gospel of
> > Jesus Christ and do not try to win "converts" for themselves, but for
> > the whole Christian Church. AFAIK, they are a missionary organization
> > and are not a denomination, they encourage people to go to any sound
> > Christian Church of their choice.
>
> completely Jewish one must worship Jesus, that Jesus was the Messiah accoridng
> to Jewish tradition - none of which is true.
Actually in the Christian Scriptures it says that After Jesus
the Messiah came, only those who received and accepted Him,
ie.Christians, are the true Jews.
> They target the ignorant, & especially ignorant Jews.
I guess that they see you in a similar way, although they do
not hate Jews but want to see them get saved by receiving
Jesus as their Messiah and Saviour. What is different about
Jesus from all the other prophets in the Jewish Scriptures, is
that Jesus is the One about whom they all prophesied and He proved
who He was by rising from the dead as prophesied by Isaiah, David
and many other prophets. On Sunday we who believe in Jesus will once
again be celebrating His glorious Resurrection which is our hope.
The fact that Israel is once again a nation is proof to those
Christians who understand the Bible that Jesus Christ is soon going
to return to the Earth as the King of King and Lord of Lords and to
complete the prophecies of the Prophets concerning Him like bringing
peace to the Earth and teaching nations to live in peace and not make
war anymore.
>
> Susan
Dan K.
Amazon
Susan Cohen wrote:
>
> Amazon wrote:
>
> > Don Stockman wrote:
> > >
> > > In nyc.general Amazon <ama...@earthlink.net> wrote:
> > >
> > > > > There are many things that can be said about Jews for Jesus, but
> > > > > "honorable" is about the very last adjective I would think should apply.
> > >
> > > > Everyone is entitled to his/her opinion, but not every opinion is
> > > > based on rational facts.
> > >
> > > Mine is based on personal experience, on seeing new Jewish Russian
> > > immigrants whose heritage has been stolen from them by these bloodsuckers.
> >
> > You mean the Soviet Russians did not steal the Russian Jews
> > Jewish heritage?
>
> You snipped where he said they had tried to destroy all religions.
>
> In fact, he said:
>
> The Soviets tried to destroy all religions, but that gives your
> Jesus followers no special right to prey on others, by falsely pretending
> to be something else. Have at least the honesty of standard Christian
> missionaries, who do not hide the coattails of their so-called God.
I am not aware that they do that. AFAIK, they consider themselves
to be fulfilled Jews, ie. Jews who have accepted Jesus as their
Messiah, just as the first early Christians did.
> > > It's based on seeing advertisings for "Passover Seders" in Russian
> > > neighborhoods, by J4J vermin who pretend that they are holding an open
> > > Passover Seder, but it is, in reality, a front to lure these Jews in.
> >
> > Why don't you go and visit this Passover Seder and find out what they
> > will be doing and saying before making a judgement.
> Because Jews are not allowed to go to religious services of other > religions.
I've never been to a Jewish Passover Seder, but Jesus was a practicing
Jew as were His disciples, so maybe the J4J also practice the
traditional Passover Seder, after all, the Passover is the rememberence
of last supper which the Jews had before they left Egypt, is it not?
So as Jews maybe the J4J celebrate the Passover as do other Jews?
> > You might find out
> > that Jesus Christ is the Passover lamb.
> Except that we already know that this is not so, that a human being is > not an acceptable sacrifice.
Here is what the Prophet Isaiah wrote:
Isaiah 53:1-12
Who has believed our message?
And to whom has the arm of the Lord been revealed?
[2] For He grew up before Him like a tender shoot,
And like a root out of parched ground;
He has no stately form or majesty
That we should look upon Him,
Nor appearance that we should be attracted to Him.
[3] He was despised and forsaken of men,
A man of sorrows, and acquainted with grief;
And like one from whom men hide their face,
He was despised, and we did not esteem Him.
[4] Surely our griefs He Himself bore,
And our sorrows He carried;
Yet we ourselves esteemed Him stricken,
Smitten of God, and afflicted.
[5] But He was pierced through for our transgressions,
He was crushed for our iniquities;
The chastening for our well-being fell upon Him,
And by His scourging we are healed.
[6] All of us like sheep have gone astray,
Each of us has turned to his own way;
But the Lord has caused the iniquity of us all
To fall on Him.
[7] He was oppressed and He was afflicted,
Yet He did not open His mouth;
Like a lamb that is led to slaughter,
And like a sheep that is silent before its shearers,
So He did not open His mouth.
[8] By oppression and judgment He was taken away;
And as for His generation, who considered
That He was cut off out of the land of the living,
For the transgression of my people to whom the stroke was due?
[9] His grave was assigned with wicked men,
Yet He was with a rich man in His death,
Because He had done no violence,
Nor was there any deceit in His mouth.
[10] But the Lord was pleased
To crush Him, putting Him to grief;
If He would render Himself as a guilt offering,
He will see His offspring,
He will prolong His days,
And the good pleasure of the Lord will prosper in His hand.
[11] As a result of the anguish of His soul,
He will see it and be satisfied;
By His knowledge the Righteous One,
My Servant, will justify the many,
As He will bear their iniquities.
[12] Therefore, I will allot Him a portion with the great,
And He will divide the booty with the strong;
Because He poured out Himself to death,
And was numbered with the transgressors;
Yet He Himself bore the sin of many,
And interceded for the transgressors.
So you see, the Messiah was a sin or guilt offering according to
the Prophet Isaiah
>
> > > > > Jews for Jesus attempts to lure young adults on college > campuses
> > > > > who have had poor Jewish educations into their so-called "Jewish"
> > > > > services, and then slam them with the Jesus crap.
> > >
> > > > What you call "Jesus crap" is what the soviets tried to destroy
> > > > in their former Evil Empire, but the Lord Jesus Christ prevailed
> > > > and He brought that Evil Empire down and the whole world to this
> > >
> > > The Soviets tried to destroy all religions, but that gives your
> > > Jesus followers no special right to prey on others,
> >
> > What you call "preying" is not preying at all, but witnessing to their
> > Jewish brethren that Jesus Christ is the Jewish Messiah and the true
> > Passover lamb.
> And what you call "witnessing" everyone else calls "proselytizing" or > "preying."
Proselytizing yes, "preying" no.
Christians are commanded by God to preach, but never to force
people to accept the truth.
> > Remember, Jesus came as a Jew to the Jews first and to
> > the Gentiles also, but when a person whether he be Jew or Gentile
> > receives Christ and becomes a Christian, then in Christ he becomes a new
> > Creation, a son of God in Christ.
> The worst part about you people is your arrogance. We have just as > much right to
> believe that "Once a Jew, Always a Jew," & that any deviant beliefs to > this notion are unimportant.
But that is exactly what the J4J are saying, that one can be
a Jew indeed one becomes fulfilled as a Jew when one receives
the Messiah. It is not throwing away your Jewishness, but becoming
whole as a Jew, by receiving the One who was prophecied to come
by all of the Hebrew prophets including Moses.
> > That is the meaning of being born
> > again as symbolized by baptism.
> Something else you tried to co-opt from us - the mikveh.
Not co-opt, but given by God as a sign of repentence and new
birth. After all, Christianity is Jewish because God sent
the Messiah to be a Jew. When God called Abraham the whole
world had already departed from God and God rather than destroying
the Earth again chose to try and reconcile humanity back to Himself
through Abraham and eventually the Messiah who was to be of his
earthly seed.
> > BTW, after Christ came, the *Chosen
> > People* are those who have received Christ as their Saviour and Messiah,
> > a Jew who refuses to accept Christ is no more than a Gentile and is not
> > a member of the Chosen People.
> I'm sure you wish this, but this is not so, either. It only proves your jealousy &
> wanting to co-opt our religoin for yourself.
Don't forget as I said above, Jesus came first to the Jews
and also to all nations through the preaching of the good news
about Him and His resurrection. It is only because Jesus is really
alive that people can meet Him and know Him through the Spirit of God,
the same Spirit that worked through the ancient prophets of Israel.
> > > by falsely pretending to be something else.
> >
> > Every time I have seen the Jews for Jesus, they very clearly broadcast
> > that they are Jews for Jesus and do not try to hide that fact. AFAIK
> > they clearly tell Jews that Jesus is the Messiah of the Jews and that
> > Jews need to accept Him for their Salvation.
> > He is risen, He is not dead.
> As I have said before, they pretend that Jesus is a loigcal choice for Jews,when it
> isn't so.
If you read the Jewish Scriptures you may be convinced otherwise if
you ask the Living God of Abraham, Isaac and Jacob to reveal to you
the truth about Jesus, if He is indeed the Messiah.
> Anyone who says so has no knowledge of Judaism whatsover. That's how
> they get their "converts."
That is not the record of J4J, many J4J are very knowledgable Jews who
received revelation from God that Jesus is indeed the Messiah. It would
be wrong to tell someone to believe just because they say so. Belief
only comes by personal revelation from God, neither I nor any J4J can
convince you that Jesus is the Messiah, but if you ask God to show you
the truth about Jesus in all honesty and sincerity, I am 100% convinced
that He will.
> > > Have at least the honesty of standard Christian
> > > missionaries, who do not hide the coattails of their so-called God.
> >
> > AFAIK the J4J do honestly winess their faith in Jesus as the Messiah of
> > the Jews, just as the Apostle Paul, Peter, Andrew and all the rest of
> > the Apostles and disciples did.
> > If you think about it, *all the first Christians were Jews*.
> So? You're not proving anything, except that the first Christians were heretcs &/or
> apostates (whichever).
Or they were Jews who really saw Jesus after His resurrection from the
dead and after being filled with the Holy Spirit and Divine Power
preached the good news about Jesus throughout the then known world
despite severe persecution and even death.
>
> > > > > Soviet emigres are especially easy pickings. At least the standard
> > > > > Christian religions are more "honorable" since they do not hide their
> > > > > intentions, or attempt specifically to prey on these young adults.
> > >
> > > > AFAIK, J4J do not try to hide anything, they openly preach the Gospel of
> > > > Jesus Christ and do not try to win "converts" for themselves, but for
> > > > the whole Christian Church. AFAIK, they are a missionary organization
> > > > and are not a denomination, they encourage people to go to any sound
> > > > Christian Church of their choice.
> >
> > > Hang around a college campus sometime and see for yourself. That
> > > is, of course, if you are not one of them yourself doing the J4J > thing.
> >
> > If what you mean by the "J4J thing" the witnessing to Jewish people
> > about Jesus Christ, the Messiah of Jews and Gentiles, then they are
> > doing what God called them to do IMHO.
>
> If you mean by "witnessing" that they're trying to get Jews to believe in Jesus,
> then they are lying & spreading disinformation on what Judaism is.
Or Jesus is the Messiah promised by Biblical Judaism who came to
institute the New Covenant which promises not only Eternal Life, but
also redemption from sin. I'm sure that you are aware that *every Jew*
is living with his sins because the Temple was destroyed and there are
no sin offerings possible as required by the Laws of Moses. The whole
nation of Israel is living in their sins according to their own God
given Laws. The prophet Daniel and Jesus tell us that the Jews will
rebuild the Temple and at that time Jesus will return, but not until
after the Temple is once again desecrated and the "man of sin is
revealed" whom Jesus will destroy. See Daniel chapter 9.
> Susan
Dan K.
Don Stockman
In nyc.general Amazon <ama...@earthlink.net> wrote:
> > > What you call "preying" is not preying at all, but witnessing to their
> > > Jewish brethren that Jesus Christ is the Jewish Messiah and the true
> > > Passover lamb.
They can practice any religion they want. They can believe that
the Emperor Dune is God if they feel like it. And, they can practice their
own religion of Christianity. Which is what people who follow Jesus are
doing.
But these slimy people do not do that. They avoid mention of Jesus
in early stages, because they know that even Jews who have little
knowledge know that Jesus is not for Jews. But then, only much later, when
they are enveloped in cult-like suffocation, do they start slipping in
mention of the Jesus crap.
Complete dishonesty.
Mark Borok
In article <6gi9t8$b...@news-central.tiac.net>, Don Stockman
<ds...@shell1.tiac.net> wrote:
I am sure you speak from personal experience. However, all of the J4J
literature I've seen has been up-front in declaring Christ to be the
Messiah (including a semi-cute pamphlet in which Bart Simpson (?) says
"Don't have a cow just because we're telling you that Jesus is the
Messiah", or something like that).
IMO anyone who wants to proselytize among Jews has to take an approach
that allows Jews to keep their cultural identity and their status as the
chosen people.
--Mark
--
Mark Borok
"Restless Graphics"
Animation and multimedia design
http://www.mindspring.com/~mborok
Remove "spamless" from email address to respond
Charles Don Hall
In article <mborok-0904980927510001@pool-207-205-195-100_wlhm.grid.net>,
Mark Borok <mbo...@spamlessmindspring.com> wrote:
>In article <6gi9t8$b...@news-central.tiac.net>, Don Stockman
><ds...@shell1.tiac.net> wrote:
>> In nyc.general Amazon <ama...@earthlink.net> wrote:
>>
>> But these slimy people do not do that. They avoid mention of Jesus
>> in early stages, because they know that even Jews who have little
>> knowledge know that Jesus is not for Jews. But then, only much later, when
>> they are enveloped in cult-like suffocation, do they start slipping in
>> mention of the Jesus crap.
>>
>> Complete dishonesty.
>
>I am sure you speak from personal experience. However, all of the J4J
>literature I've seen has been up-front in declaring Christ to be the
>Messiah (including a semi-cute pamphlet in which Bart Simpson (?) says
>"Don't have a cow just because we're telling you that Jesus is the
>Messiah", or something like that).
Huh? Why would Bart Simpson be a member of J4J? The Simpsons belong to
some generic Protestant denomination. This is just *wrong*.
Do you know who might make a good J4J spokeperson? Krusty the Klown:
TV Announcer: It's a Krusty Kinda Khristmas, brought to you by ILG: selling
your body's chemicals after you die. And by Li'l Sweetheart
Cupcakes -- a subsidiary of ILG.
Lisa: Hey, I thought Krusty was Jewish.
Bart: Christmas is a time when people of _all_ religions come together
to worship Jesus Christ.
---Episode 3F07, "Marge Be Not Proud"
Anyway, if anyone needs more advice on how to write effective religious
pamphlets, please let me know.
--
=================================================================
Charles Don Hall, Licensed Philosopher (ch...@eco.twg.com)
The Graduation Webpage: http://www.geocities.com/Tokyo/Ginza/4185
=================================================================
Amazon
Don Stockman wrote:
>
> In nyc.general Mark Borok <mbo...@spamlessmindspring.com> wrote:
> > >
> > > But these slimy people do not do that. They avoid mention of Jesus
> > > in early stages, because they know that even Jews who have little
> > > knowledge know that Jesus is not for Jews. But then, only much later, when
> > > they are enveloped in cult-like suffocation, do they start slipping in
> > > mention of the Jesus crap.
> > >
> > > Complete dishonesty.
>
> > I am sure you speak from personal experience. However, all of the J4J
> > literature I've seen has been up-front in declaring Christ to be the
> > Messiah (including a semi-cute pamphlet in which Bart Simpson (?) says
> > "Don't have a cow just because we're telling you that Jesus is the
> > Messiah", or something like that).
>
> like when school is out, to adults. But on campus, they hold "passover
> seders" and "friday night services" etc... with no mention of Jesus in the
> flyers.
Are you saying that just because the J4Js believe in Jesus that
they don't have the *right* to hold on to and celebrate Jewish
traditions?
Amazon
Don Stockman wrote:
> In nyc.general Amazon <ama...@earthlink.net> wrote:
> > > > What you call "preying" is not preying at all, but witnessing to their
> > > > Jewish brethren that Jesus Christ is the Jewish Messiah and the true
> > > > Passover lamb.
>
> They can practice any religion they want. They can believe that
> the Emperor Dune is God if they feel like it. And, they can practice their
> own religion of Christianity. Which is what people who follow Jesus are
> doing.
>
> in early stages, because they know that even Jews who have little
> knowledge know that Jesus is not for Jews.
Isn't that being just a little prejudicial?
And isn't that prejudice based on a lack of knowledge of
*Jewish Biblical Scripture*?
> But then, only much later, when
> they are enveloped in cult-like suffocation,
I never knew the Jews for Jesus to be a cult
nor suffocating, can you please explain.
AFAIK, they are a Christian missionary group that is
focused on the Jewish people because they are Jews themselves
and want to dissolve the prejudice which many Jews harbor
about Jesus. AFAIk their aim is to show their Jewish "kin"
that Jesus is indeed the Messiah as shown in Jewish Biblical
Scripture.
> do they start slipping in mention of the Jesus crap.
Please read Isaiah chapter 53 and you will see that Jesus
did indeed fit into the description which the Propent Isaiah
painted of the Messiah.
> Complete dishonesty.
IMHO the J4Js are completely honest.
At least the ones that I have met.
Dan K.
Don Stockman
> > in early stages, because they know that even Jews who have little
> > they are enveloped in cult-like suffocation, do they start slipping in
> > mention of the Jesus crap.
> >
Don Stockman
In nyc.general Amazon <ama...@earthlink.net> wrote:
> Are you saying that just because the J4Js believe in Jesus that
> they don't have the *right* to hold on to and celebrate Jewish
> traditions?
Sure they can. Also, vegetarians can hold on to their meat knives,
and go through the motions of cutting non-existent meat, and they can turn
on their ovens and roast a long piece of metal with nothing on it.
I'm sure that is very satisfying. However, Judaism and
Christianity are fundamentally different. Jews do the commandments that
God commanded, and wait (more or less) patiently for the Messiah.
Christians believe that someone who came 2000 years ago and died
without redeeming anyone, crying out to God for having abandoned him, was
not only the Messiah, but God.
That's a fundamental gap. And J4J make a mockery of both sets of
beliefs by attempting to combine the two (actually, they really don't.
They are Christians, but their dishonesty comes from pretending to be Jews
while embracing Christianity, all to lure unknowledgeable Jews).
Susan Cohen
Amazon wrote:
> Susan Cohen wrote:
> >
> > Amazon wrote:
> >
> > > AFAIK, J4J do not try to hide anything, they openly preach the Gospel of
> > > Jesus Christ and do not try to win "converts" for themselves, but for
> > > the whole Christian Church. AFAIK, they are a missionary organization
> > > and are not a denomination, they encourage people to go to any sound
> > > Christian Church of their choice.
> >
> > You are sadly mistaken. They pretend to be the true Jews, that in order to be
> > completely Jewish one must worship Jesus, that Jesus was the Messiah accoridng
> > to Jewish tradition - none of which is true.
>
> Actually in the Christian Scriptures it says that After Jesus
> the Messiah came, only those who received and accepted Him,
> ie.Christians, are the true Jews.
You're really dense, aren't you? I don't give a rat's assd what it says in Xtian
Scripture - go peddle your fish (pun intended) in the proper marketplace (another
pun intended, if you like!)
> > They target the ignorant, & especially ignorant Jews.
>
> I guess that they see you in a similar way, although they do
> not hate Jews but want to see them get saved by receiving
> Jesus as their Messiah and Saviour.
I know damned well they see me as ignorant. Which is why I order them off my porch
in no uncertain terms when they come around with their arrogant nonsense.
> What is different about
> Jesus from all the other prophets in the Jewish Scriptures, is
> that Jesus is the One about whom they all prophesied
Nope, not in the slightest. Xians just appropriated our writings & pretended they
were about hi. Since he fulfilled none of the requirements to have been Moshiach,
this statement of yours is ridiculous as best, & off-topic for soc.culture.jewish -
but you knew that already.
Susan Cohen
Amazon wrote:
> Are you saying that just because the J4Js believe in Jesus that
> they don't have the *right* to hold on to and celebrate Jewish
> traditions?
Pretty much. When you opt into another religion, it's considered good manners (at
the very least) to stop practising the former one. Helps the angels with their
scorekeeping.
Susan Cohen
Amazon wrote:
> Don Stockman wrote:
>
> > In nyc.general Amazon <ama...@earthlink.net> wrote:
>
> > > > > What you call "preying" is not preying at all, but witnessing to their
> > > > > Jewish brethren that Jesus Christ is the Jewish Messiah and the true
> > > > > Passover lamb.
> >
> > They can practice any religion they want. They can believe that
> > the Emperor Dune is God if they feel like it. And, they can practice their
> > own religion of Christianity. Which is what people who follow Jesus are
> > doing.
> >
> > But these slimy people do not do that. They avoid mention of Jesus
> > in early stages, because they know that even Jews who have little
> > knowledge know that Jesus is not for Jews.
>
> Isn't that being just a little prejudicial?
Prejudicial? I'd say it's dishonest, rather than prejudicial. But the J4Js are
like that.
> And isn't that prejudice based on a lack of knowledge of
> *Jewish Biblical Scripture*?
Why, I believe you're getting it! The J4Js really don't know all that they should
about the Torah.
> > But then, only much later, when
> > they are enveloped in cult-like suffocation,
>
> I never knew the Jews for Jesus to be a cult
That's funny - professional deprogrammers do.
> AFAIK, they are a Christian missionary group that is
> focused on the Jewish people because they are Jews themselves
ROTFL! This isn't a Freudian slip - it's the whole Victoria Secret's Catalgoue!
> and want to dissolve the prejudice which many Jews harbor
> about Jesus.
What prejudice? You mean to say that "prejudice" consists of not worshipping
someone who we know - if he existed at all - was little more than an itinerant
rabbi? Gee, you're pretty hard-nosed, aren't you (as we;; as off-topic for
soc.culture.jewish - but you knew that before you posted)?
> AFAIk their aim is to show their Jewish "kin"
> that Jesus is indeed the Messiah as shown in Jewish Biblical
> Scripture.
Then they can save their schizoid breath, becasue you can't show what doesn't
exist.
> > do they start slipping in mention of the Jesus crap.
>
> Please read Isaiah chapter 53 and you will see that Jesus
> did indeed fit into the description which the Propent Isaiah
> painted of the Messiah.
I've read it. There's no mention of him whatsoever. But thanks for playing.
> > Complete dishonesty.
>
> IMHO the J4Js are completely honest.
> At least the ones that I have met.
I'm sure you think so. This entire posts displays your particular view of reality.
Too bad for you.
Amazon
Susan Cohen wrote:
>
> Amazon wrote:
>
> > Don Stockman wrote:
> > >
> > > In nyc.general Mark Borok <mbo...@spamlessmindspring.com> wrote:
> > > > >
> > > > > But these slimy people do not do that. They avoid mention of Jesus
> > > > > in early stages, because they know that even Jews who have little
> > > > > they are enveloped in cult-like suffocation, do they start slipping in
> > > > > mention of the Jesus crap.
> > > > >
> > >
> > > > I am sure you speak from personal experience. However, all of the J4J
> > > > literature I've seen has been up-front in declaring Christ to be the
> > > > Messiah (including a semi-cute pamphlet in which Bart Simpson (?) says
> > > > "Don't have a cow just because we're telling you that Jesus is the
> > > > Messiah", or something like that).
> > >
> > > Correct. That's the stuff they spread in subways and buses and the
> > > like when school is out, to adults. But on campus, they hold "passover
> > > seders" and "friday night services" etc... with no mention of Jesus in the
> > > flyers.
> >
> > Are you saying that just because the J4Js believe in Jesus that
> > they don't have the *right* to hold on to and celebrate Jewish
> > traditions?
>
> Pretty much. When you opt into another religion, it's considered good manners (at
> the very least) to stop practising the former one. Helps the angels with their
> scorekeeping.
See how utterly ignorant you are Susan,
the Passover is *NOT* a religious holiday, it is
a commemorative holiday. It commemorates an event which
happened *BEFORE* there was a Jewish religion.
The Jews did not receive a religion until they went
into the wilderness *AFTER* the Passover.
Dan K.
BTW, Jesus celebrated the Passover and Christians have
the liberty to celebrate the Passover also if they so choose.
Christ set us free from religion according to the Jewish
Apostle Paul saying that we as Chritians are free to celebrate
those holidays which we choose. I know that may sound strange
to you until you reflect that God made religion for people and
not the other way around. Adam and Eve did not have a religion
they had a relationship with God and because of Christ we are
restored to that relationship. But it is up to each Christian
to develop that relationship. And as you know, the Jews are
cut off from a relationship with God because the Jews are living
in their sins because the Temple has been destroyed and there
is no way to get rid of your sins because sin offerings can NOT
be performed. Israel is cut off from God, and the Jews are no
longer the Chosen people. The Chosen people are those who have
accepted God's Messiah and Savior. As the Jewish Apostle Peter
wrote, the Christians are a new race, a royal priesthood, a new
nation. The Prophet Zechariah in his book says that the Jews
as a nation will not turn to Christ until they look at Him who
they had pierced and weep over Him as for an only son.
But individually many Jews are receiving Christ and so can you.
Amazon
Susan Cohen wrote:
>
> Amazon wrote:
>
> > Susan Cohen wrote:
> > >
> > > Amazon wrote:
> > >
> > > > Jesus Christ and do not try to win "converts" for themselves, but for
> > > > the whole Christian Church. AFAIK, they are a missionary organization
> > > > and are not a denomination, they encourage people to go to any sound
> > > > Christian Church of their choice.
> > >
> > > You are sadly mistaken. They pretend to be the true Jews, that in order to be
> > > completely Jewish one must worship Jesus, that Jesus was the Messiah accoridng
> > > to Jewish tradition - none of which is true.
> >
> > Actually in the Christian Scriptures it says that After Jesus
> > the Messiah came, only those who received and accepted Him,
> > ie.Christians, are the true Jews.
>
> You're really dense, aren't you? I don't give a rat's assd what it says in Xtian
> Scripture - go peddle your fish (pun intended) in the proper marketplace (another
> pun intended, if you like!)
I thought we were discussing the Jews for Jesus and what they
believe? Now why are you getting so vicious?
> > > They target the ignorant, & especially ignorant Jews.
> >
> > I guess that they see you in a similar way, although they do
> > not hate Jews but want to see them get saved by receiving
> > Jesus as their Messiah and Saviour.
>
> I know damned well they see me as ignorant. Which is why I order them off my porch
> in no uncertain terms when they come around with their arrogant nonsense.
And they should not come back to your porch IMHO,
but just shake the dust off their shoes against you
as the Scriptures tell us to do. It does not matter if
you claim to be Jewish, Buddist, Muslim, Hindu or whatever,
there is only One God and Only One Savior, the Lord Jesus Christ
who rose from the dead and whose resurrection we celebrated
around the world last Sunday. The Orthodox Christians will be
celebrating Easter next Sunday as they follow a different calendar.
> > What is different about
> > Jesus from all the other prophets in the Jewish Scriptures, is
> > that Jesus is the One about whom they all prophesied
>
> Nope, not in the slightest. Xians just appropriated our writings & pretended they
> were about hi.
It is not pretension. Just read it again, Isaiah wrote that the
Messiah must die for the sins of His people, the Jews first and also
all mankind who come to believe in Him. Read it again to your
own salvation. Isaiah wrote in the 53 chapter of his book:
Isaiah 53:1-12
Who has believed our message?
And to whom has the arm of the Lord been revealed?
[2] For He grew up before Him like a tender shoot,
And like a root out of parched ground;
He has no stately form or majesty
That we should look upon Him,
Nor appearance that we should be attracted to Him.
[3] He was despised and forsaken of men,
A man of sorrows, and acquainted with grief;
And like one from whom men hide their face,
He was despised, and we did not esteem Him.
Isn't this what you are doing Susan? Esteeming Him not
and despising Him?
[4] Surely our griefs He Himself bore,
And our sorrows He carried;
Yet we ourselves esteemed Him stricken,
Smitten of God, and afflicted.
[5] But He was pierced through for our transgressions,
He was crushed for our iniquities;
Doesn't this say that He was crushed for our sins?
The chastening for our well-being fell upon Him,
And by His scourging we are healed.
[6] All of us like sheep have gone astray,
Each of us has turned to his own way;
But the Lord has caused the iniquity of us all
To fall on Him.
Again it is repeated that He took our sins or iniquities,
does it not?
[7] He was oppressed and He was afflicted,
Yet He did not open His mouth;
Like a lamb that is led to slaughter,
And like a sheep that is silent before its shearers,
So He did not open His mouth.
[8] By oppression and judgment He was taken away;
And as for His generation, who considered
That He was cut off out of the land of the living,
Doesn't this tell you that He was killed? To be cut off from
the land of the living?
For the transgression of my people to whom the stroke was due?
You see, God's people the Jews deserved the stroke, but it fell on
Jesus.
[9] His grave was assigned with wicked men,
Doesn't this mean that He died, to be put in a grave?
Yet He was with a rich man in His death,
Doesn't this tell you that He died?
Because He had done no violence,
Nor was there any deceit in His mouth.
[10] But the Lord was pleased
To crush Him, putting Him to grief;
If He would render Himself as a guilt offering,
Doesn't this tell you that Jesus was a sin or guilt offering???
He will see His offspring,
He will prolong His days,
And the good pleasure of the Lord will prosper in His hand.
[11] As a result of the anguish of His soul,
He will see it and be satisfied;
By His knowledge the Righteous One,
My Servant, will justify the many,
As He will bear their iniquities.
[12] Therefore, I will allot Him a portion with the great,
And He will divide the booty with the strong;
Because He poured out Himself to death,
And was numbered with the transgressors;
*AND DOESN'T THIS TELL YOU THAT HE ROSE FROM THE GRAVE AND IS RISEN???*
Yet He Himself bore the sin of many,
And interceded for the transgressors.
Yes, Susan, Jesus bore our sins and took our transgressions upon Himself
according to the Jewish Scriptures. He is your Messiah but you
continue to reject Him.
> Since he fulfilled none of the requirements to have been Moshiach,
Wrong, He did, all of the requirements including rising from the dead.
> this statement of yours is ridiculous as best, & off-topic for > soc.culture.jewish -
No, it is not. Jesus is Jewish and so are the J4J.
But only those who receive Him are of the Chosen People
whether they be Jewish or not.
> but you knew that already.
Dan K.
May the God of Abraham, Isaac and Jacob enlighten the eyes
of your mind and reveal to you the truth about who Jesus is.
Mark Borok
And as you know, the Jews are
> cut off from a relationship with God because the Jews are living
> in their sins because the Temple has been destroyed and there
> is no way to get rid of your sins because sin offerings can NOT
> be performed.
So you're saying there was no Jewish religion between the time of Moses
and the building of the first Temple? King David did not have a
relationship with God?
Israel is cut off from God, and the Jews are no
> longer the Chosen people. The Chosen people are those who have
> accepted God's Messiah and Savior. As the Jewish Apostle Peter
> wrote, the Christians are a new race, a royal priesthood, a new
> nation.
If that is the case, they have failed pretty miserably to live up to the
ideal. Most nations do not spend quite so much time warring against
themselves.
The Prophet Zechariah in his book says that the Jews
> as a nation will not turn to Christ until they look at Him who
> they had pierced
AFAIK Christ was supposed to have been pierced by a Roman soldier.
Amazon
Susan Cohen wrote:
>
> Amazon wrote:
>
> >
> > > In nyc.general Amazon <ama...@earthlink.net> wrote:
> >
> > > > > > What you call "preying" is not preying at all, but witnessing to their
> > > > > > Jewish brethren that Jesus Christ is the Jewish Messiah and the true
> > > > > > Passover lamb.
> > >
> > > They can practice any religion they want. They can believe that
> > > the Emperor Dune is God if they feel like it. And, they can practice their
> > > own religion of Christianity. Which is what people who follow Jesus are
> > > doing.
> > >
> > > in early stages, because they know that even Jews who have little
> > > knowledge know that Jesus is not for Jews.
> >
>
> Prejudicial? I'd say it's dishonest, rather than prejudicial. But the J4Js are
> like that.
I believe that it is you who are prejudiced against Jesus,
not the Jews for Jesus. Jesus came first of all for the Jews.
But the Jews as a nation rejected Him which is why God scattered
the Jews all over the world for 2000 years. For idolatry God
punished the Jews for a mere 70 Years, for rejecting and killing
His Son, God punished the Jews for 2000 years.
> > And isn't that prejudice based on a lack of knowledge of
> > *Jewish Biblical Scripture*?
>
> Why, I believe you're getting it! The J4Js really don't know all that > they should about the Torah.
But they do know that Jesus is the Messiah. BTW, the Jewish
Scriptures consist of more than just the Torah.
> > > But then, only much later, when
> > > they are enveloped in cult-like suffocation,
> >
> > I never knew the Jews for Jesus to be a cult
> That's funny - professional deprogrammers do.
First time that I have heard about that.
Their literature that I have seen is main line Christianity.
> > AFAIK, they are a Christian missionary group that is
> > focused on the Jewish people because they are Jews themselves
> ROTFL! This isn't a Freudian slip - it's the whole Victoria Secret's > Catalgoue!
That's your opinion.
> > and want to dissolve the prejudice which many Jews harbor
> > about Jesus.
> What prejudice? You mean to say that "prejudice" consists of not
> worshipping someone who we know - if he existed at all - was little
> more than an itinerant rabbi?
The Jews who followed Jesus must have been the most deceived people who
ever lived and should be studied if you are right because most of them
preferred to die very cruel deaths rather than deny that they saw Jesus
after He rose from the dead. Where else in history do you find people
willing to die for such a lie? NOWHERE ELSE! People may die for a
false belief, but not for an outright lie.
> Gee, you're pretty hard-nosed, aren't you (as we;; as off-topic for
> soc.culture.jewish - but you knew that before you posted)?
I don't find talking about Jews off topic in soc.culture.jewish.
> > AFAIk their aim is to show their Jewish "kin"
> > that Jesus is indeed the Messiah as shown in Jewish Biblical
> > Scripture.
> Then they can save their schizoid breath, becasue you can't show what > doesn't exist.
I just answered one of your other replies and went over Isaiah
chapter 53 pointing out where Jesus fulfilled Jewish prophetic
scripture.
> > > do they start slipping in mention of the Jesus crap.
> > Please read Isaiah chapter 53 and you will see that Jesus
> > did indeed fit into the description which the Propent Isaiah
> > painted of the Messiah.
> I've read it. There's no mention of him whatsoever.
Not by name, but by deeds.
> But thanks for playing.
I don't find this to be a game.
> > > Complete dishonesty.
> > IMHO the J4Js are completely honest.
> > At least the ones that I have met.
> I'm sure you think so. This entire posts displays your particular view > of reality.
> Too bad for you.
Like I said in the other post, I hope that God reveals Jesus to
you, but He usually doesn't do it if you refuse to ask Him if Jesus
is really the one that Isaiah talked about.
Dan K.
Amazon
Susan Cohen wrote:
>
> Amazon wrote:
>
> > Susan Cohen wrote:
> > >
> > > Amazon wrote:
> > >
Don Stockman
In nyc.general Amazon <ama...@earthlink.net> wrote:
> I believe that it is you who are prejudiced against Jesus,
> not the Jews for Jesus. Jesus came first of all for the Jews.
> But the Jews as a nation rejected Him which is why God scattered
> the Jews all over the world for 2000 years. For idolatry God
> punished the Jews for a mere 70 Years, for rejecting and killing
> His Son, God punished the Jews for 2000 years.
We Jews did not reject Jesus. There's nothing there to reject.
Here's a clue. The Messiah is suppsoed to end war, bringt about
peace, swords into plowshares, and all that. Didn't happen. Which means,
for these and other reason, that wasn't the Messiah.
Here's another. You sell me your car. I give you $5000. You bring
your car. I bring no money. You drive away. Did you reject my $5000? No, I
just didn't have it. Nothing to reject.
Here's the final clue. It wasn't God who has been afflicting Jews
for thousands of years. It's been your Christians. Can you spell Crusades?
> Their literature that I have seen is main line Christianity.
Ask for their college stuff, and the ones they distribute in Russian in
Brighton Beach, in NYC. Ask for the good stuff.
> The Jews who followed Jesus must have been the most deceived people who
> ever lived and should be studied if you are right because most of them
> preferred to die very cruel deaths rather than deny that they saw Jesus
> after He rose from the dead. Where else in history do you find people
> willing to die for such a lie? NOWHERE ELSE! People may die for a
> false belief, but not for an outright lie.
The people who followed him are to be pitied, since they devoted much of
their lives to falsehoods. However, as soon as Jesus got waxed, most of
his followers saw the light. Jesus had not delivered on the goods. No one
was redeemed, there was no world peace. So, they went about hoping for the
real messiah to come.
The small minority of Jews who refused to give up changed the rules in the
middle of the game. They decided that the Messiah DOES NOT have to do what
he is supposed to do.
A 3 year old can see through that. Promise him a candy if he does
something. He does it, and then tell him "no, no, I meant NEXT time I
would give it to you."
See if he swallows that. He won't, unlike you christians with your worship
of a dead human being.
> Not by name, but by deeds.
By deeds? The messiah is supposed to do certain things. Otherwise, he
isn't the messiah. Maybe he is a used car dealer. Jesus did not accomplish
these things.The bastard just got himself killed by the Romans with his
rabble-rousing.
Amazon
Don Stockman wrote:
>
> In nyc.general Amazon <ama...@earthlink.net> wrote:
>
> > I believe that it is you who are prejudiced against Jesus,
> > not the Jews for Jesus. Jesus came first of all for the Jews.
> > But the Jews as a nation rejected Him which is why God scattered
> > the Jews all over the world for 2000 years. For idolatry God
> > punished the Jews for a mere 70 Years, for rejecting and killing
> > His Son, God punished the Jews for 2000 years.
> We Jews did not reject Jesus. There's nothing there to reject.
God gave the Jews 40 years after the death and resurrection of Jesus
to turn to Him and His Son. They refused and God punished them
according to what He had told them He would do to them in the Tanakh
if they disobeyed Him. For rejecting His Son God punished them for
2000 years to be dispersed around the world. What is the Jewish
explanation for the land spitting the Jews out as God had promised
if they refused to obey Him?
> Here's a clue. The Messiah is suppsoed to end war, bringt about
> peace, swords into plowshares, and all that. Didn't happen. Which means,
> for these and other reason, that wasn't the Messiah.
Now you are dictating to God the times and the seasons.
The prophet Isaiah told us that the Messiah must die for the sins
of the people and that because He does, He will be exalted.
He has done the first part, died and resurrected. He will do
the rest when He returns as He promised to do.
> Here's another. You sell me your car. I give you $5000. You bring
> your car. I bring no money. You drive away. Did you reject my $5000? No, I
> just didn't have it. Nothing to reject.
Didn't you say that you *gave* me the money in the third sentence?
You are contradicting yourself. Typical of many here on the newsgroups.
> Here's the final clue. It wasn't God who has been afflicting Jews
> for thousands of years. It's been your Christians. Can you spell Crusades?
If you read the Tanakh carefully you will see that God is
able to protect the Jews from the most powerful forces on Earth
when they live in *obedience* to Him. He promised to punish
His people if they do not *obey* Him. The Jews did not *obey*
His Only Begotten Son, therefore they were punished until the
"times of the Gentiles" is completed. That time as I see it
happened in 1967, so I believe that the return of Jesus is very
soon. According to Jesus the next great sign will be the
rebuilding of the Temple. See Matthew Chapter 24.
I'll post if for you if you do not have a New Testament and
are interested.
> > Their literature that I have seen is main line Christianity.
> Ask for their college stuff, and the ones they distribute in Russian
> in Brighton Beach, in NYC. Ask for the good stuff.
> > The Jews who followed Jesus must have been the most deceived people who
> > ever lived and should be studied if you are right because most of them
> > preferred to die very cruel deaths rather than deny that they saw Jesus
> > after He rose from the dead. Where else in history do you find people
> > willing to die for such a lie? NOWHERE ELSE! People may die for a
> > false belief, but not for an outright lie.
> The people who followed him are to be pitied, since they devoted much of
> their lives to falsehoods. However, as soon as Jesus got waxed, most of
> his followers saw the light. Jesus had not delivered on the goods. No one
> was redeemed, there was no world peace. So, they went about hoping for the
> real messiah to come.
>
> The small minority of Jews who refused to give up changed the rules in the
> middle of the game. They decided that the Messiah DOES NOT have to do what
> he is supposed to do.
Wrong, as I explained, He has done much of what He was prophesied to
do, the rest He will do when He returns.
> A 3 year old can see through that. Promise him a candy if he does
> something. He does it, and then tell him "no, no, I meant NEXT time I
> would give it to you."
I presume that you are an adult, ask God to reveal Jesus to you
in truth and honesty and I promise you that He will.
> See if he swallows that. He won't, unlike you christians with your
> worship of a dead human being.
Just check out Psalm 2 in the Tanakh, who do you think the "Son" is?
And in Zecharaiah 14, who is the Lord who will set his feet on the Mount
of Olives? It is Jesus when He returns.
> > Not by name, but by deeds.
> By deeds? The messiah is supposed to do certain things. Otherwise, he
> isn't the messiah. Maybe he is a used car dealer. Jesus did not accomplish
> these things.
Not all of the things He will do, but He will when He returns.
But you don't want to discuss Isaiah chapter 53 do you?
> The bastard just got himself killed by the Romans with his
> rabble-rousing.
Start reading the Tanakh and the Gospels instead of fairy tales
and lying stories.
Dan K.
Susan Cohen
Amazon wrote: The Jews who followed Jesus must have been the most deceived people who
> ever lived and should be studied if you are right because most of them
> preferred to die very cruel deaths rather than deny that they saw Jesus
> after He rose from the dead. Where else in history do you find people
> willing to die for such a lie? NOWHERE ELSE! People may die for a
> false belief, but not for an outright lie.
Nazi Germany: they had their "martyrs", too.
> > Gee, you're pretty hard-nosed, aren't you (as we;; as off-topic for
> > soc.culture.jewish - but you knew that before you posted)?
>
> I don't find talking about Jews off topic in soc.culture.jewish.
The place for your posts is in alt.messianic - where I've set the follow-ups. Byt you knew that already -
if only by your own admission about Jews for Jesus being mainline Christianity.
Susan Cohen
Amazon wrote:
> Susan Cohen wrote:
> >
> > Amazon wrote:
> >
> > > Don Stockman wrote:
> > >
> > > > In nyc.general Amazon <ama...@earthlink.net> wrote:
> > >
> > > > > > > What you call "preying" is not preying at all, but witnessing to their
> > > > > > > Jewish brethren that Jesus Christ is the Jewish Messiah and the true
> > > > > > > Passover lamb.
> > > >
> > > > They can practice any religion they want. They can believe that
> > > > the Emperor Dune is God if they feel like it. And, they can practice their
> > > > own religion of Christianity. Which is what people who follow Jesus are
> > > > doing.
> > > >
> > > > But these slimy people do not do that. They avoid mention of Jesus
> > > > in early stages, because they know that even Jews who have little
> > > > knowledge know that Jesus is not for Jews.
> > >
> > > Isn't that being just a little prejudicial?
> >
> > Prejudicial? I'd say it's dishonest, rather than prejudicial. But the J4Js are
> > like that.
>
> I believe that it is you who are prejudiced against Jesus,
> not the Jews for Jesus.
Well, you've already shown that you have some pretty funny beliefs.
> Jesus came first of all for the Jews.
Which, from what I've learned about the Xian religion, is a lie: he supposedly came for everyone. You
really ought to get your facts straight before you tell other people to believe as you do. Then again, I
find it amusing that there are thousands of Xian sects, each one claiming to have *the answer*.
> But the Jews as a nation rejected Him which is why God scattered
> the Jews all over the world for 2000 years.
In your opinion.
> For idolatry God
> punished the Jews for a mere 70 Years, for rejecting and killing
> His Son, God punished the Jews for 2000 years.
And you're going to say that you love Jews, of course, that you're not prejudiced, or anything like that.
Uh-huh.
> > > And isn't that prejudice based on a lack of knowledge of
> > > *Jewish Biblical Scripture*?
> >
> > Why, I believe you're getting it! The J4Js really don't know all that > they should about the Torah.
>
> But they do know that Jesus is the Messiah. BTW, the Jewish
> Scriptures consist of more than just the Torah.
Yes. And none of them refer to Jesus. Not one. Only Moshiach, who hasn't come yet.
> > > > But then, only much later, when
> > > > they are enveloped in cult-like suffocation,
> > >
> > > I never knew the Jews for Jesus to be a cult
>
> > That's funny - professional deprogrammers do.
>
> First time that I have heard about that.
Live & learn.
> Their literature that I have seen is main line Christianity.
So much for them pretending to be Jews, as intheir name. Thankyou for revealing their deceit for all the
world to see.
> > > AFAIK, they are a Christian missionary group that is
> > > focused on the Jewish people because they are Jews themselves
>
> > ROTFL! This isn't a Freudian slip - it's the whole Victoria Secret's > Catalgoue!
>
> That's your opinion.
Based on the fact that they call themselves "Jews", your calling them Christians is a Freudian slip -
unless you're too honest for their own good!
> > > AFAIk their aim is to show their Jewish "kin"
> > > that Jesus is indeed the Messiah as shown in Jewish Biblical
> > > Scripture.
>
> > Then they can save their schizoid breath, becasue you can't show what > doesn't exist.
>
> I just answered one of your other replies and went over Isaiah
> chapter 53 pointing out where Jesus fulfilled Jewish prophetic
> scripture.
Not in the slightest, but thank you for playing, We have some lovely parting gifts for you.
> > > > do they start slipping in mention of the Jesus crap.
>
> > > Please read Isaiah chapter 53 and you will see that Jesus
> > > did indeed fit into the description which the Propent Isaiah
> > > painted of the Messiah.
>
> > I've read it. There's no mention of him whatsoever.
>
> Not by name, but by deeds.
Which aren't his at all.
> > But thanks for playing.
>
> I don't find this to be a game.
That's the real tragedy. You believe it all.
> > > > Complete dishonesty.
>
> > > IMHO the J4Js are completely honest.
> > > At least the ones that I have met.
>
> > I'm sure you think so. This entire posts displays your particular view > of reality.
> > Too bad for you.
>
> Like I said in the other post, I hope that God reveals Jesus to
> you, but He usually doesn't do it if you refuse to ask Him if Jesus
> is really the one that Isaiah talked about.
Jesus has already been revealed to me - as at best an itinerant rabbi of 2000 years ago, & at least a
construct of some desperate cultists. You can save your hopes for someone who wants/needs them.
Don Stockman
In nyc.general Amazon <ama...@earthlink.net> wrote:
> God gave the Jews 40 years after the death and resurrection of Jesus
> to turn to Him and His Son. They refused and God punished them
> according to what He had told them He would do to them in the Tanakh
> if they disobeyed Him. For rejecting His Son God punished them for
> 2000 years to be dispersed around the world. What is the Jewish
> explanation for the land spitting the Jews out as God had promised
> if they refused to obey Him?
40 years? Where did you get that number? Oh, and BTW, I'd love to see your
text of Isaiah. It doesn't seem to match the standard text. For example,
there's none of your shit about Jesus in there.
> > Here's a clue. The Messiah is suppsoed to end war, bringt about
> > peace, swords into plowshares, and all that. Didn't happen. Which means,
> > for these and other reason, that wasn't the Messiah.
> Now you are dictating to God the times and the seasons.
Before your pretender to the throne, Jesus, yemach shmo vezichrono, was
executed, no one ever interpreted anything in the Torah to support the
ludicrous claim that the Messiah would not do what he's supposed to do,
but is supposed to die first and come back., and opnly THEN do it. That's
pure bullshit. Of course, disppointed people can re-interpret anything to
make them feel better.
As for the even more ludicrous and blasphemous claim that some human being
is God, well, all I can say is that someone was smoking some tall weed
back then. Complete bullshit.
> I presume that you are an adult, ask God to reveal Jesus to you
> in truth and honesty and I promise you that He will.
Here's a thought. Fuck Jesus, and fuck you too while you're at it. Stop
pretending to be Jewish among Jewish people and live you life with your
jesus/god in any way you want. Just stay the hell away from Jews who are
not educated, through no fault of their own, to know better.
compania
. . . Amazon and Don Stockman and Dan K. wrote this trialogue
. . . and it describes the perspectives of Judiasm and Christianity.
. . . One would think that the God Who started all this
. . . is either dead or crazy.
. . . But the fact is, this dialogue is a Good Outcome,
. . . because Justice [that Jews opt for] and
. . . Fairness [that Christians opt for]
. . . can never meet eye-to-eye,
. . . because the languages by-pass each other.
. . . There literally is not equivalent words back and forth,
. . . to make any clarity come to rest.
. . . It is on the horns of such a dilemma
. . . that the experiences of Justice and Fairness must sprout.
. . . Any God-fearing mortal who believes that Jahweh
. . . is a passive, lazy and indulgent God
. . . will feel that all this arguing is pointless.
. . . But the people who realize that Life Means Contention
. . . [between the cats and the dogs,
. . . between the Republicans and the Democrats,
. . . between the Left and the Right,
. . . between Needs and Desires,
. . . between Justice and Fairness]
. . . will satisfy themselves that Jahweh's Ways are TRUE.
. . . He does not reward indolence nor complacency.
. . . So take up your point-of-view--pick it up--
. . . and speak out with it--
. . . if EVER you expect to make any difference at all.
--Jahweh
> > I believe that it is you who are prejudiced against Jesus,
> > > not the Jews for Jesus. Jesus came first of all for the Jews.
> > > But the Jews as a nation rejected Him which is why God scattered
> > > the Jews all over the world for 2000 years. For idolatry God
> > > punished the Jews for a mere 70 Years, for rejecting and killing
> > > His Son, God punished the Jews for 2000 years.
> > We Jews did not reject Jesus. There's nothing there to reject.
>
> God gave the Jews 40 years after the death and resurrection of Jesus
> to turn to Him and His Son. They refused and God punished them
> according to what He had told them He would do to them in the Tanakh
> if they disobeyed Him. For rejecting His Son God punished them for
> 2000 years to be dispersed around the world. What is the Jewish
> explanation for the land spitting the Jews out as God had promised
> if they refused to obey Him?
>
> > Here's a clue. The Messiah is suppsoed to end war, bringt about
> > peace, swords into plowshares, and all that. Didn't happen. Which means,
> > for these and other reason, that wasn't the Messiah.
>
> Now you are dictating to God the times and the seasons. The prophet Isaiah
> told us that the Messiah must die for the sins of the people and that because
> He does, He will be exalted. He has done the first part, died and
> resurrected. He will do
> the rest when He returns as He promised to do.
>
> > Here's another. You sell me your car. I give you $5000. You bring your car.
> I bring no money. You drive away. Did you reject my $5000? No, I just didn't
> have it. Nothing to reject.
>
> Didn't you say that you *gave* me the money in the third sentence?
> You are contradicting yourself. Typical of many here on the newsgroups.
>
> > Here's the final clue. It wasn't God who has been afflicting Jews
> > for thousands of years. It's been your Christians. Can you spell Crusades?
>
> If you read the Tanakh carefully you will see that God is able to protect the
> Jews from the most powerful forces on Earth when they live in *obedience* to
> Him. He promised to punish His people if they do not *obey* Him. The Jews
> did not *obey* His Only Begotten Son, therefore they were punished until the
> "times of the Gentiles" is completed. That time as I see it happened in 1967,
> so I believe that the return of Jesus is very soon. According to Jesus the
> next great sign will be the
> rebuilding of the Temple. See Matthew Chapter 24. I'll post if for you if you
> do not have a New Testament and are interested.
>
> > > Their literature that I have seen is main line Christianity.
>
> > Ask for their college stuff, and the ones they distribute in Russian in
> Brighton Beach, in NYC. Ask for the good stuff.
>
> > > The Jews who followed Jesus must have been the most deceived people who
> > > ever lived and should be studied if you are right because most of them
> > > preferred to die very cruel deaths rather than deny that they saw Jesus
> > > after He rose from the dead. Where else in history do you find people
> > > willing to die for such a lie? NOWHERE ELSE! People may die for a
> > > false belief, but not for an outright lie.
>
> > The people who followed him are to be pitied, since they devoted much of
> > their lives to falsehoods. However, as soon as Jesus got waxed, most of
> > his followers saw the light. Jesus had not delivered on the goods. No one
> > was redeemed, there was no world peace. So, they went about hoping for the
> > real messiah to come.
> > The small minority of Jews who refused to give up changed the rules in the
> > middle of the game. They decided that the Messiah DOES NOT have to do what
> > he is supposed to do.
>
> Wrong, as I explained, He has done much of what He was prophesied to
> do, the rest He will do when He returns.
>
> > A 3 year old can see through that. Promise him a candy if he does
> > something. He does it, and then tell him "no, no, I meant NEXT time I
> > would give it to you."
>
> I presume that you are an adult, ask God to reveal Jesus to you
> in truth and honesty and I promise you that He will.
>
> > See if he swallows that. He won't, unlike you christians with your
> > worship of a dead human being.
>
> Just check out Psalm 2 in the Tanakh, who do you think the "Son" is?
> And in Zecharaiah 14, who is the Lord who will set his feet on the Mount
> of Olives? It is Jesus when He returns.
>
> > > Not by name, but by deeds.
>
Amazon
Susan Cohen wrote:
>
> Amazon wrote:
>
> > Susan Cohen wrote:
> > >
> > > Amazon wrote:
> > >
> > > > Don Stockman wrote:
> > > >
> > > > > > > > Jewish brethren that Jesus Christ is the Jewish Messiah and the true
> > > > > > > > Passover lamb.
> > > > >
> > > > > They can practice any religion they want. They can believe that
> > > > > the Emperor Dune is God if they feel like it. And, they can practice their
> > > > > own religion of Christianity. Which is what people who follow Jesus are
> > > > > doing.
> > > > >
> > > > > But these slimy people do not do that. They avoid mention of Jesus
> > > > > in early stages, because they know that even Jews who have little
> > > > > knowledge know that Jesus is not for Jews.
> > > >
> > > > Isn't that being just a little prejudicial?
> > >
> > > Prejudicial? I'd say it's dishonest, rather than prejudicial. But the J4Js are
> > > like that.
> >
> > not the Jews for Jesus.
>
>
>
Of course He came to die for all who believe, just as the Jewish High
Priest
performs the rite of atonement on the Day of Atonement for all who
believe.
But the Jews have not been able to perform these rites for the past 2000
years,
so they are living in their sins and are thus separated from God for as
the
Scriptures say, "It is your sins which separate you from God".
But the Jewish Apostle Paul wrote that salvation is for the Jew first
and
also for the Gentiles. That is what I was referring to.
> You really ought to get your facts straight before you tell other people to believe as > you do. Then again, I find it amusing that there are thousands of Xian sects, each one > claiming to have *the answer*.
I think that what you misunderstand is that all True Christians believe
the
basic truth about who Jesus is which is *the answer*. What Christians
disagree
on is either how to live the Christian life or on some points of
doctrine which
causes unnecessary divisions. I believe that the Jews also have that
problem.
Do all Jews agree on how to practice Judaism? They don't today and they
did not
in Jesus's day.
>
> > But the Jews as a nation rejected Him which is why God scattered
> > the Jews all over the world for 2000 years.
>
> In your opinion.
What is your opinion, I am not being facetious, I have never heard a
Jewish explanation on why God cast the Jews out of their land for 2000
years.
> > For idolatry God
> > punished the Jews for a mere 70 Years, for rejecting and killing
> > His Son, God punished the Jews for 2000 years.
> And you're going to say that you love Jews, of course, that you're not prejudiced, or > anything like that.
> Uh-huh.
The Jews killed many prophets that God sent to His people because
they did not like the message of repentence, it was not only Jesus
that the Jews killed. But that does not give Christians or anyone
else the right to hate Jews or anyone else. What the Jews did to
Jesus was abominable just as what the Germans did to the Jews was
abominable and what the Russians did to Christians was abominable.
> > > > And isn't that prejudice based on a lack of knowledge of
> > > > *Jewish Biblical Scripture*?
> > >
> > > Why, I believe you're getting it! The J4Js really don't know all that > they should about the Torah.
> >
> > But they do know that Jesus is the Messiah. BTW, the Jewish
> > Scriptures consist of more than just the Torah.
> Yes. And none of them refer to Jesus. Not one. Only Moshiach, who hasn't come yet.
Jesus may not be named, but His deeds are and Jesus fulfilled only
a small number of them as recorded in Isaiah 53 and other places.
But you are right most of the Scriptures concerning the Messiah have
not been yet accomplished, but they will when Jesus returns as He
certainly
will, but not until after the Temple is rebuilt. The Prophet Daniel
tells
us about the time line in many places of his book.
> > > > > But then, only much later, when
> > > > > they are enveloped in cult-like suffocation,
> > > >
> > > > I never knew the Jews for Jesus to be a cult
> >
> > > That's funny - professional deprogrammers do.
> >
> > First time that I have heard about that.
>
> Live & learn.
You too. :-)
> > Their literature that I have seen is main line Christianity.
>
> So much for them pretending to be Jews, as intheir name. Thankyou for revealing their > deceit for all the world to see.
I think that their name says it all, they are Jews after their ethnicity
who have accepted the redemption work of the Messiah Jesus of Nazareth.
No deception there AFAIK.
>
> > > > AFAIK, they are a Christian missionary group that is
> > > > focused on the Jewish people because they are Jews themselves
> >
> > > ROTFL! This isn't a Freudian slip - it's the whole Victoria Secret's > Catalgoue!
> >
> > That's your opinion.
>
> Based on the fact that they call themselves "Jews", your calling them Christians is a > Freudian slip - unless you're too honest for their own good!
I see, a Jew can be an atheist or an agnostic or a soviet but not a
Christian.
Funny reasoning there as I see it. Is that what they call "fuzzy
logic"? :-)
So in your opinion a Jew who is not religious and does not follow the
Law of Moses is not a Jew?
> > > > AFAIk their aim is to show their Jewish "kin"
> > > > that Jesus is indeed the Messiah as shown in Jewish Biblical
> > > > Scripture.
> >
> > > Then they can save their schizoid breath, becasue you can't show what > doesn't exist.
> >
> > I just answered one of your other replies and went over Isaiah
> > chapter 53 pointing out where Jesus fulfilled Jewish prophetic
> > scripture.
> Not in the slightest, but thank you for playing, We have some lovely parting gifts for > you.
I hope you at least read the post.
> > > > > do they start slipping in mention of the Jesus crap.
> >
> > > > Please read Isaiah chapter 53 and you will see that Jesus
> > > > did indeed fit into the description which the Propent Isaiah
> > > > painted of the Messiah.
> >
> > > I've read it. There's no mention of him whatsoever.
> >
> > Not by name, but by deeds.
>
> Which aren't his at all.
He already died and rose,
He will return in *POWER* to subdue the Earth and rule it
for God as King of Kings and Lord of Lords.
And according to the Scriptures that event is imminent as
the Jews are about to rebuild the Temple and indeed can
do it whenever God allows.
> > > But thanks for playing.
> >
> > I don't find this to be a game.
>
> That's the real tragedy. You believe it all.
Only by the grace and goodness of God.
> > > > > Complete dishonesty.
> >
> > > > IMHO the J4Js are completely honest.
> > > > At least the ones that I have met.
> >
> > > I'm sure you think so. This entire posts displays your particular view > of reality.
> > > Too bad for you.
> >
> > Like I said in the other post, I hope that God reveals Jesus to
> > you, but He usually doesn't do it if you refuse to ask Him if Jesus
> > is really the one that Isaiah talked about.
>
> Jesus has already been revealed to me - as at best an itinerant rabbi of 2000 years ago, & at least a
> construct of some desperate cultists. You can save your hopes for someone who > wants/needs them.
We all need Him whether we know it or not.
Dan K.
Don Stockman
In nyc.general Amazon <ama...@earthlink.net> wrote:
> Of course He came to die for all who believe, just as the Jewish High
> Priest performs the rite of atonement on the Day of Atonement for all
> who believe.
Actually, I think he died because he was a shitty carpenter. All of his
prior customers finally had enough of him, and they told the Romans where
he was.
> basic truth about who Jesus is which is *the answer*. What Christians
> disagree
> on is either how to live the Christian life or on some points of
> doctrine which
> causes unnecessary divisions.
If Jesus is the answer, then the question must be:
"Name the one individual whose alleged existence has led to more death and
suffering over the history of mankind than any other individual."
> The Jews killed many prophets that God sent to His people because
> they did not like the message of repentence, it was not only Jesus
> that the Jews killed.
Hey, asshole. It was the Romans who killed Jesus. But don't let the truth
get in your way. Oh, yea. I'm sure you love Jews.
> He already died and rose,
> He will return in *POWER* to subdue the Earth and rule it
> for God as King of Kings and Lord of Lords.
The only *POWER* I know of is in THE RING, which I have. When I put it on,
I feel very powerful. I am also invisible. It's my magical mystery decoder
ring. Would you like one too?
Listen carefully. Jesus was the bastard son of an adulterous woman, who
could not even save his own skin when the Romans came for him, and he died
whining like a stuck pig to God for having abandoned him.
You can follow this bastard straight into the ground, but keep your crap
about him off the Jewish newsgroups.
Amazon
> > to turn to Him and His Son. They refused and God punished them
> > according to what He had told them He would do to them in the Tanakh
> > if they disobeyed Him. For rejecting His Son God punished them for
> > 2000 years to be dispersed around the world. What is the Jewish
> > explanation for the land spitting the Jews out as God had promised
> > if they refused to obey Him?
>
Jesus was killed and He arose from the dead in about 33 AD.
In 70 AD the Roman General Titus surrounded Jerusalem as Jesus
said the Romans would and totally destroyed Jerusalem and the
Temple as Jesus said they would and deported the Jews to all
parts of the world as Jesus said they would.
> Oh, and BTW, I'd love to see your text of Isaiah.
Not a problem, I already posted it before but I am most happy
to repost it for you.
Isaiah 53:1-12
Who has believed our message?
And to whom has the arm of the Lord been revealed?
[2] For He grew up before Him like a tender shoot,
And like a root out of parched ground;
He has no stately form or majesty
That we should look upon Him,
Nor appearance that we should be attracted to Him.
[3] He was despised and forsaken of men,
A man of sorrows, and acquainted with grief;
And like one from whom men hide their face,
He was despised, and we did not esteem Him.
[4] Surely our griefs He Himself bore,
And our sorrows He carried;
Yet we ourselves esteemed Him stricken,
Smitten of God, and afflicted.
[5] But He was pierced through for our transgressions,
He was crushed for our iniquities;
The chastening for our well-being fell upon Him,
And by His scourging we are healed.
[6] All of us like sheep have gone astray,
Each of us has turned to his own way;
But the Lord has caused the iniquity of us all
To fall on Him.
[7] He was oppressed and He was afflicted,
Yet He did not open His mouth;
Like a lamb that is led to slaughter,
And like a sheep that is silent before its shearers,
So He did not open His mouth.
[8] By oppression and judgment He was taken away;
And as for His generation, who considered
That He was cut off out of the land of the living,
For the transgression of my people to whom the stroke was due?
[9] His grave was assigned with wicked men,
Yet He was with a rich man in His death,
Because He had done no violence,
Nor was there any deceit in His mouth.
[10] But the Lord was pleased
To crush Him, putting Him to grief;
If He would render Himself as a guilt offering,
He will see His offspring,
He will prolong His days,
And the good pleasure of the Lord will prosper in His hand.
[11] As a result of the anguish of His soul,
He will see it and be satisfied;
By His knowledge the Righteous One,
My Servant, will justify the many,
As He will bear their iniquities.
[12] Therefore, I will allot Him a portion with the great,
And He will divide the booty with the strong;
Because He poured out Himself to death,
And was numbered with the transgressors;
Yet He Himself bore the sin of many,
And interceded for the transgressors.
The person who is talked about is Jesus, He fulfilled everything
up to the point of verse 12 which will be completed when He
returns. Jesus will be rewarded because He "poured Himself to
death" and "bore the sin of many". He bore the sin of many because
not everyone receives His atonement for them. If you do not
receive Christ's atonement as stated above in God's Word your
sin will remain on you and you will have to give account to God
on why you refused to ask God to show you if Jesus is the one
Isaiah talked about in this prophecy.
> It doesn't seem to match the standard text. For example,
> there's none of your shit about Jesus in there.
It does not mention His name, but it matches His deeds.
> > > Here's a clue. The Messiah is suppsoed to end war, bringt about
> > > peace, swords into plowshares, and all that. Didn't happen.
That will happen when Jesus returns.
Which means,
> > > for these and other reason, that wasn't the Messiah.
Messiah must also fulfill Isaiah chapter 53.
> > Now you are dictating to God the times and the seasons.
> Before your pretender to the throne, Jesus, yemach shmo vezichrono, was
> executed, no one ever interpreted anything in the Torah to support the
> ludicrous claim that the Messiah would not do what he's supposed to do,
> but is supposed to die first and come back.,
Just read Isaiah 53 above for yourself.
> and opnly THEN do it. That's
> pure bullshit. Of course, disppointed people can re-interpret anything to
> make them feel better.
>
> As for the even more ludicrous and blasphemous claim that some human being
> is God, well, all I can say is that someone was smoking some tall weed
> back then. Complete bullshit.
Everone is entitled to his or her opinion even if it is wrong.
> > I presume that you are an adult, ask God to reveal Jesus to you
> > in truth and honesty and I promise you that He will.
>
> Here's a thought. Fuck Jesus, and fuck you too while you're at it. Stop
> pretending to be Jewish among Jewish people
I'm not Jewish, I'm an American.
> and live you life with your
> jesus/god in any way you want. Just stay the hell away from Jews who
> are not educated, through no fault of their own, to know better.
I do not *force* my views on anyone, nor does God expect me to
according to what my Bible says. But I do have a duty to express
my views and convictions, indeed God commands me to tell others
about Jesus and what He has done for me. But if they do not want to
hear, so be it. And you do not need to read my posts if they offend
you.
Dan K.
Amazon
Don Stockman wrote:
>
> In nyc.general Amazon <ama...@earthlink.net> wrote:
>
> > Of course He came to die for all who believe, just as the Jewish High
> > Priest performs the rite of atonement on the Day of Atonement for all
> > who believe.
>
> prior customers finally had enough of him, and they told the Romans where
> he was.
>
> > disagree
> > on is either how to live the Christian life or on some points of
> > doctrine which
> > causes unnecessary divisions.
>
> "Name the one individual whose alleged existence has led to more death and
> suffering over the history of mankind than any other individual."
>
> > they did not like the message of repentence, it was not only Jesus
> > that the Jews killed.
> get in your way. Oh, yea. I'm sure you love Jews.
God commands us to love all people Jews included, but I do admit that
it is easier to love some people more than others.
> > He already died and rose,
> > He will return in *POWER* to subdue the Earth and rule it
> > for God as King of Kings and Lord of Lords.
> The only *POWER* I know of is in THE RING, which I have. When I put it on,
> I feel very powerful. I am also invisible. It's my magical mystery decoder
> ring. Would you like one too?
Sounds like you are getting bored with this discussion.
Too bad.
> Listen carefully. Jesus was the bastard son of an adulterous woman, who
> could not even save his own skin when the Romans came for him, and he died
> whining like a stuck pig to God for having abandoned him.
Some people would want you to believe that, but that view will only
lead you to destruction. The Soviets tried to destroy all knowledge
of Jesus and they failed, there is still one Evil Personage to come
known as the Antichrist who will rule the world and persecute Christians
before Christ returns, but he too will fail and it is in his days that
Jesus will return.
> You can follow this bastard straight into the ground, but keep your crap
> about him off the Jewish newsgroups.
As I said elsewhere, Jesus is a relevant topic on a Jewish newsgroup,
however, you do not need to read my posts if they offend you.
Dan K.
Susan Cohen
Don Stockman wrote:
> The only *POWER* I know of is in THE RING, which I have. When I put it on,
> I feel very powerful. I am also invisible. It's my magical mystery decoder
> ring. Would you like one too?
"Oh, Frodo - give me THE RING! Give me THE RING!"
Susan Cohen
Don Stockman
> Don Stockman wrote:
> "Oh, Frodo - give me THE RING! Give me THE RING!"
I can't give you THE RING. We hardly know each other. For all I know, you
might be 45 and I might be 20, or you might be 20 and I might be 45.
But I'll tell you what. I also have the three. I can give you one of
those.
Chris Mauritz
In nyc.general Mark Weinstock <Wo...@interactive.net> wrote:
> Just a question, but if the primary teaching of Judeo/Christian belief is
> "Love thy neighbor...," why have so many thousands been killed in the name
> of Jesus?
Or Allah...or....you name it. Religious zealots of any flavor seem
to have a knack to trouncing other people's life/liberty in an effort
to enforce their version of the truth.
C
--
Chris Mauritz | Network Security & Design
Network Engineer | 56k-T3 connectivity to the Net.
ri...@mordor.net <--fun biz--> | http://www.new-york.net/
Don Stockman
In nyc.general Chris Mauritz <ri...@ritz.mordor.net> wrote:
> In nyc.general Mark Weinstock <Wo...@interactive.net> wrote:
> > Just a question, but if the primary teaching of Judeo/Christian belief is
> > "Love thy neighbor...," why have so many thousands been killed in the name
> > of Jesus?
> Or Allah...or....you name it. Religious zealots of any flavor seem
> to have a knack to trouncing other people's life/liberty in an effort
> to enforce their version of the truth.
And especially in this case it is tragic.
For Christians claim that Jesus was the Messiah, and everyone knows that
the Messiah is supposed to bring about world peace. Not only did Jesus
not accomplish this, but the millions of dead have actually been murdered
by people acting in the name of Jesus.
Amazon
Mark Weinstock wrote:
>
> Just a question, but if the primary teaching of Judeo/Christian
> belief is "Love thy neighbor...," why have so many thousands been
> killed in the name of Jesus?
murdered in the name of various isms and ideologies.
Evil men take a good concept and twist it for their own ends.
Christ did not command His people to make war or kill in His name.
However, the Russians murdered millions of Ukrainians, Balts,
Christians and other nationalities in the name of a humanistic ideology
called communism. Likewise the Chinese did the same. The Japanese
murdered millions of Chinese, Vietnamese and many other
nationalities in the name of their Emperor and their ideology
of their national superiority. The Muslims also spread their
religion by "fire and sword". And the Jews also committed
genocide when they entered the Holy Land did they not? But the
Jews, and I also, believe that God told them to exact vengeance
on those nations on God's behalf. BTW if you read Revelation
Chapter 19 you will see that when Christ returns He will subdue
the Earth by force where nations do not submit to Him peacefully.
It also reveals that in Daniel Chapter 2.
We should also not forget about Hitler and the atrocities which
he perpetrated against Christians and Jews in the name of his
twisted "humanistic" ideology. I had met German Christians whose
parents spent the whole war in jail because they, out of a Christian
conscience, resisted Hitler and his Nazi regime.
*People can always find a reason to excuse killing to perpetrate
their own wishes and to dominate their neighbors, whether it be
a religion or a humanistic ideology.*
> Mark
Dan K.
DragonSlayer
Mark Weinstock wrote in message ...
>Just a question, but if the primary teaching of Judeo/Christian belief is
>"Love thy neighbor...," why have so many thousands been killed in the name
>of Jesus?
Are we forgetting the millions killed in the name of Karl Marx, Lenin,
Stalin, Mao et al
--
Dragon Slayer
Life is like an onion, you peel it layer by layer
And at times you weep!
>
>--
>Mark wo...@interactive.net mw...@andrew.cmu.edu
>**********************************************************************
>How can you be in two places at once, when you're not anywhere at all?
>**********************************************************************
>
Reuven Singer
DragonSlayer wrote
"Are we forgetting the millions killed in the name of Karl Marx, Lenin,
Stalin, Mao et al"
No, but their adherents are not proselytizing on this sig at the moment
Susan Cohen
Amazon wrote:
> > You can follow this bastard straight into the ground, but keep your crap
> > about him off the Jewish newsgroups.
>
> As I said elsewhere, Jesus is a relevant topic on a Jewish newsgroup,
Not in the context in which you are discussing him. A look at our charter would
not come amiss - I know your ISP will be checking into it, themselves.
> however, you do not need to read my posts if they offend you.
Have some manners, & don't post here in the first place.
Susan
Charles F. Coen
Susan Cohen wrote:
>
> Amazon wrote:
>
You have been asked twice not to spam other newsgroups. Now things
could turn ugly unless you stop.
Chuck Coen cc...@pacbell.net
Amazon
Susan Cohen wrote:
>
> Amazon wrote:
>
> > > about him off the Jewish newsgroups.
> >
> > As I said elsewhere, Jesus is a relevant topic on a Jewish newsgroup,
>
> Not in the context in which you are discussing him. A look at our charter would
> not come amiss - I know your ISP will be checking into it, themselves.
>
> > however, you do not need to read my posts if they offend you.
>
> Have some manners, & don't post here in the first place.
I believe that in the USA we still have free speech,
if you do not want to discuss whether Jesus was the Jewish
Messiah or the Jewish Tanakh then don't, I am discussing it
with others than just you. If you don't want to continue
our discussion, you are free to stop.
I am not forcing my views on you, so stop your threats and stop
responding to my posts.
> Susan
IAROSLAV IOURACH
(bumblebee) boris>Jesus was not a jew. He was the son of the God while
being the God
at the same time. God hasn't got nationality.There is no co-orelation
between jews and Jesus nor christianity whatsoever.
On Mon, 27 Apr 1998, Amazon wrote:
> Susan Cohen wrote:
> >
> > Amazon wrote:
> >
Amazon
IAROSLAV IOURACH wrote:
>
> (bumblebee) boris
>Jesus was not a jew. He was the son of the God while
> being the God at the same time. God hasn't got nationality.
> There is no co-orelation
> between jews and Jesus nor christianity whatsoever.
I believe that the Scriptures are very clear that there
most certainly is. Jesus said that Salvation is of the Jews
meaning that God chose the Jewish nation as the nation from
whom the Messiah and Savior of the world is to come. Jesus's
mother most certainly was Jewish as were the first disciples
and Apostles. Christianity was never meant to be a "religion",
it is meant to be a way of life according to the teachings
of Jesus and the Apostles as found in the New Testament Scriptures.
> On Mon, 27 Apr 1998, Amazon wrote:
>
> > Susan Cohen wrote:
> > >
> > > Amazon wrote:
> > >
Susan Cohen
Rabbi Gunter Bergman wrote:
> On Fri, 24 Apr 1998 13:50:20 -0400, Susan Cohen the Whorish Slut
Confusing me with your mother again, Scotty? Yeah, thought so. Shall I save this for when you insist
that your detractors are the ones using the foul language with no real proof? Yeah, I think so.
(Coming from a coward such as yourself, your insults are even more pathetic than they would be from
someone who isn't afraid to tell people who he is & what his e-mail is).