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STUMP, spam and Newsgroups headers
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Owen Rees
Nov 1, 2021, 7:49:03 PM11/1/21
to
A recent discussion in uk.net.news.moderation led me to investigate how
STUMP handles incoming messages that do not have a Newsgroups header.
I would expect that if the submission address for a moderated group gets
onto email spam lists, the spambots will send email to that address but
it is unlikely to include a Newsgroups header. I would hope that
anything sent from a news server or a news client configured to send
directly for moderated groups should include a Newsgroups header.
Is anyone running STUMP (with or without Webstump) suffering from spam
mailed directly to the submission address?
That question may be difficult to answer because STUMP adds a Newsgroups
header if it is missing. If the header is present but does not name the
target group then STUMP adds the group. If all you see is the mail
forwarded by STUMP then it may not be obvious that it was emailed
directly without a Newsgroups header.
I expect the idea was that you can post to a moderated group by sending
an email to the submission address. Does any non-spammer ever do that?
I have been playing around with my test instance of STUMP/Webstump which
is based on the versions in use in the uk.* hierarchy to have STUMP
record the bad header and pass that to Webstump where the administrator
for the group can choose what to do with such messages. Since I do not
actually run a moderated group I cannot do any live tests but anyone who
is suffering from this problem is welcome to adopt/adapt what I have
done. It can be found here:
https://github.com/owenrees/stump/tree/handle-bad-header
I think it should not be too difficult to adapt that to other versions.
STUMP handles incoming messages that do not have a Newsgroups header.
I would expect that if the submission address for a moderated group gets
onto email spam lists, the spambots will send email to that address but
it is unlikely to include a Newsgroups header. I would hope that
anything sent from a news server or a news client configured to send
directly for moderated groups should include a Newsgroups header.
Is anyone running STUMP (with or without Webstump) suffering from spam
mailed directly to the submission address?
That question may be difficult to answer because STUMP adds a Newsgroups
header if it is missing. If the header is present but does not name the
target group then STUMP adds the group. If all you see is the mail
forwarded by STUMP then it may not be obvious that it was emailed
directly without a Newsgroups header.
I expect the idea was that you can post to a moderated group by sending
an email to the submission address. Does any non-spammer ever do that?
I have been playing around with my test instance of STUMP/Webstump which
is based on the versions in use in the uk.* hierarchy to have STUMP
record the bad header and pass that to Webstump where the administrator
for the group can choose what to do with such messages. Since I do not
actually run a moderated group I cannot do any live tests but anyone who
is suffering from this problem is welcome to adopt/adapt what I have
done. It can be found here:
https://github.com/owenrees/stump/tree/handle-bad-header
I think it should not be too difficult to adapt that to other versions.
Thomas Hochstein
Nov 2, 2021, 4:14:54 AM11/2/21
to
Owen Rees schrieb:
> I expect the idea was that you can post to a moderated group by sending
> an email to the submission address. Does any non-spammer ever do that?
Yes, of course, but not for moderated discussion groups. For those
groups, it's a red flag.
> I expect the idea was that you can post to a moderated group by sending
> an email to the submission address. Does any non-spammer ever do that?
groups, it's a red flag.
Eli the Bearded
Nov 2, 2021, 4:14:55 AM11/2/21
to
In news.admin.moderation, Owen Rees <or...@hotmail.com> wrote:
> I would expect that if the submission address for a moderated group gets
> onto email spam lists, the spambots will send email to that address but
> it is unlikely to include a Newsgroups header. I would hope that
> anything sent from a news server or a news client configured to send
> directly for moderated groups should include a Newsgroups header.
I would think 100% of spam to the submission address will lack a
> I would expect that if the submission address for a moderated group gets
> onto email spam lists, the spambots will send email to that address but
> it is unlikely to include a Newsgroups header. I would hope that
> anything sent from a news server or a news client configured to send
> directly for moderated groups should include a Newsgroups header.
Newgroups header. And I think 100% of posts submitted to news servers
will have a Newsgroups header. I believe the RFC1036 authors would not
have imagined _requiring_ separate email addresses for separate groups,
so include the Newsgroups header with all posts. (Further, I bet 100%
of the posts taking the news server route will have a Path header and
none of the pure email ones will.)
> That question may be difficult to answer because STUMP adds a Newsgroups
> header if it is missing. If the header is present but does not name the
> target group then STUMP adds the group. If all you see is the mail
> forwarded by STUMP then it may not be obvious that it was emailed
> directly without a Newsgroups header.
A careful reading of the Received: headers would probably work, too.
> I expect the idea was that you can post to a moderated group by sending
> an email to the submission address. Does any non-spammer ever do that?
advertising the submission address and I saw in the last year someone
post to misc.legal.moderated saying they used that after having trouble
posting regularly. (m.l.m seems to be quirky. I have moderated a group
in the distant past[*], and _I've_ found posting there tricky.)
I suspect it may (be|have been) more common with cron posts of FAQ
messages, but a quick look at everything in alt.answers and comp.answers
on my local server looks like cron to news server not cron to mail.
Those are the only groups I can think of that are moderated and getting
FAQ posts from someone other than the moderator.
Elijah
------
[*] late 1990s alt.sex.stories.moderated, using home grown software not STUMP
Owen Rees
Nov 2, 2021, 12:31:24 PM11/2/21
to
On Tue, 2 Nov 2021 04:14:54 EDT, Eli the Bearded <*@eli.users.panix.com>
wrote in <eli$21110...@qaz.wtf>:
>In news.admin.moderation, Owen Rees <or...@hotmail.com> wrote:
>> I would expect that if the submission address for a moderated group gets
>> onto email spam lists, the spambots will send email to that address but
>> it is unlikely to include a Newsgroups header. I would hope that
>> anything sent from a news server or a news client configured to send
>> directly for moderated groups should include a Newsgroups header.
>
>I would think 100% of spam to the submission address will lack a
>Newgroups header. And I think 100% of posts submitted to news servers
>will have a Newsgroups header. I believe the RFC1036 authors would not
>have imagined _requiring_ separate email addresses for separate groups,
>so include the Newsgroups header with all posts. (Further, I bet 100%
>of the posts taking the news server route will have a Path header and
>none of the pure email ones will.)
RFC1036 does not describe how messages get to the moderators of
moderated groups. RFC5537 does have a description of what I believe has
been the standard practice for a long time (except for its preferred
encapsulation method). Every moderated group has its own submission
email address and there is an established formula for deriving a
submission address from the newsgroup name. Those addresses go via a
forwarding service which has a list of the actual addresses (or further
forwarders for some hierarchies).
If everyone is doing things properly, the messsages arriving for
moderation for a target group should have the target group as the first
named moderated group in the Newsgroups header. There may also be other
moderated groups named in the header and there is a known process for
dealing with that which involves rearranging the Newsgroups header and
sending in on to the next moderated group submission address if it is
approved.
>
>> That question may be difficult to answer because STUMP adds a Newsgroups
>> header if it is missing. If the header is present but does not name the
>> target group then STUMP adds the group. If all you see is the mail
>> forwarded by STUMP then it may not be obvious that it was emailed
>> directly without a Newsgroups header.
>
>Very often I think you could guess based on the purported user-agent.
>A careful reading of the Received: headers would probably work, too.
Anything that needs human scrutiny is probably unnecessary. The messages
will probably be obvious spam to a human moderator.
>
>> I expect the idea was that you can post to a moderated group by sending
>> an email to the submission address. Does any non-spammer ever do that?
>
>Yes. Not often, but it happens. I've seen newsgroups in 2021 still
>advertising the submission address and I saw in the last year someone
>post to misc.legal.moderated saying they used that after having trouble
>posting regularly. (m.l.m seems to be quirky. I have moderated a group
>in the distant past[*], and _I've_ found posting there tricky.
I do not use one myself but I believe that some news clients can be
configured to send posts to moderated groups directly to the submission
address. I would expect that a news client would include the Newsgroups
header if it is doing that.
People running news servers may also configure them to send directly to
the real submission address for a moderated group rather than relying on
the forwarding.
>
>I suspect it may (be|have been) more common with cron posts of FAQ
>messages, but a quick look at everything in alt.answers and comp.answers
>on my local server looks like cron to news server not cron to mail.
>Those are the only groups I can think of that are moderated and getting
>FAQ posts from someone other than the moderator.
I would hope that anyone writing a script to submit posts to a moderated
group would include the Newsgroups header if sending it by email to the
submission address.
>
wrote in <eli$21110...@qaz.wtf>:
>In news.admin.moderation, Owen Rees <or...@hotmail.com> wrote:
>> I would expect that if the submission address for a moderated group gets
>> onto email spam lists, the spambots will send email to that address but
>> it is unlikely to include a Newsgroups header. I would hope that
>> anything sent from a news server or a news client configured to send
>> directly for moderated groups should include a Newsgroups header.
>
>I would think 100% of spam to the submission address will lack a
>Newgroups header. And I think 100% of posts submitted to news servers
>will have a Newsgroups header. I believe the RFC1036 authors would not
>have imagined _requiring_ separate email addresses for separate groups,
>so include the Newsgroups header with all posts. (Further, I bet 100%
>of the posts taking the news server route will have a Path header and
>none of the pure email ones will.)
moderated groups. RFC5537 does have a description of what I believe has
been the standard practice for a long time (except for its preferred
encapsulation method). Every moderated group has its own submission
email address and there is an established formula for deriving a
submission address from the newsgroup name. Those addresses go via a
forwarding service which has a list of the actual addresses (or further
forwarders for some hierarchies).
If everyone is doing things properly, the messsages arriving for
moderation for a target group should have the target group as the first
named moderated group in the Newsgroups header. There may also be other
moderated groups named in the header and there is a known process for
dealing with that which involves rearranging the Newsgroups header and
sending in on to the next moderated group submission address if it is
approved.
>
>> That question may be difficult to answer because STUMP adds a Newsgroups
>> header if it is missing. If the header is present but does not name the
>> target group then STUMP adds the group. If all you see is the mail
>> forwarded by STUMP then it may not be obvious that it was emailed
>> directly without a Newsgroups header.
>
>Very often I think you could guess based on the purported user-agent.
>A careful reading of the Received: headers would probably work, too.
will probably be obvious spam to a human moderator.
>
>> I expect the idea was that you can post to a moderated group by sending
>> an email to the submission address. Does any non-spammer ever do that?
>
>Yes. Not often, but it happens. I've seen newsgroups in 2021 still
>advertising the submission address and I saw in the last year someone
>post to misc.legal.moderated saying they used that after having trouble
>posting regularly. (m.l.m seems to be quirky. I have moderated a group
>in the distant past[*], and _I've_ found posting there tricky.
configured to send posts to moderated groups directly to the submission
address. I would expect that a news client would include the Newsgroups
header if it is doing that.
People running news servers may also configure them to send directly to
the real submission address for a moderated group rather than relying on
the forwarding.
>
>I suspect it may (be|have been) more common with cron posts of FAQ
>messages, but a quick look at everything in alt.answers and comp.answers
>on my local server looks like cron to news server not cron to mail.
>Those are the only groups I can think of that are moderated and getting
>FAQ posts from someone other than the moderator.
group would include the Newsgroups header if sending it by email to the
submission address.
>
Jason Evans
Nov 3, 2021, 5:43:38 PM11/3/21
to
On Mon, 1 Nov 2021 19:49:02 EDT, Owen Rees wrote:
> Since I do not
> actually run a moderated group I cannot do any live tests but anyone who
> is suffering from this problem is welcome to adopt/adapt what I have
> done.
Hi Owen,
> Since I do not
> actually run a moderated group I cannot do any live tests but anyone who
> is suffering from this problem is welcome to adopt/adapt what I have
> done.
I think we've fixed that in our STUMP repo. I've emailed you directly
with info and we've got a live session that we can use for tests.
For anyone else who's interested in the bug fixes that we've done, our
project page is here:
https://savannah.gnu.org/projects/stump/
https://savannah.gnu.org/projects/webstump
Owen Rees
Nov 5, 2021, 6:30:23 PM11/5/21
to
On Wed, 3 Nov 2021 17:43:36 EDT, Jason Evans <bo...@big-8.org> wrote in
<sluvor$mbp$2...@theuse.news.theuse.net>:
>On Mon, 1 Nov 2021 19:49:02 EDT, Owen Rees wrote:
>
>> Since I do not
>> actually run a moderated group I cannot do any live tests but anyone who
>> is suffering from this problem is welcome to adopt/adapt what I have
>> done.
>
>Hi Owen,
>
>I think we've fixed that in our STUMP repo. I've emailed you directly
>with info and we've got a live session that we can use for tests.
I have sent you a reply. Let me know if you have not received it.
<sluvor$mbp$2...@theuse.news.theuse.net>:
>On Mon, 1 Nov 2021 19:49:02 EDT, Owen Rees wrote:
>
>> Since I do not
>> actually run a moderated group I cannot do any live tests but anyone who
>> is suffering from this problem is welcome to adopt/adapt what I have
>> done.
>
>Hi Owen,
>
>I think we've fixed that in our STUMP repo. I've emailed you directly
>with info and we've got a live session that we can use for tests.
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