painless for whom?
Bart N. Locanthi
>One point not mentioned so far: a suicide very often leaves
>behind friends and relatives who are appalled, shocked, deeply grieved,
>guilt-riddled and so forth. Is this good?
an excellent point. perhaps those seeking painless suicide should consider
other people, paticularly their kin. it seems to me that most of the painless
methods discussed so far are also easily detectable as suicide. the insurance
not paying off only adds insult to injury.
>...that the Japanese
>are wonderful for romanticizing suicide like we Americans do violence
>(and also because of their willingness to slice up their friends)...
if i were despondent and saw no way out i think i would be insulted if my
friends said "there, there, things aren't so bad - you'll get out of federal
prison in 45 years, your wife won't hate you after you've gone in and she
takes up with someone else, ...". a second for a japanese understands and
agrees that there is only one way out.
hmm, i wonder what japanese insurance companies think about suicide? does
japan *have* insurance companies? maybe they don't have enough lawyers to
support them?
Gene Ward Smith
>>...that the Japanese
>>are wonderful for romanticizing suicide like we Americans do violence
>>(and also because of their willingness to slice up their friends)...
>
>if i were despondent and saw no way out i think i would be insulted if my
>friends said "there, there, things aren't so bad - you'll get out of federal
>prison in 45 years, your wife won't hate you after you've gone in and she
>takes up with someone else, ...". a second for a japanese understands and
>agrees that there is only one way out.
My point is that a "second for a Japanese" is all too willing to
think this when it is manifestly not true. I got a letter roasting me
for this sentiment; but the truth hurts sometimes. In the US you would
never hear a story about two young lovers who realized they had achieved
the heights of human bliss; so as a consequence, they walked arm-in-arm up
a volcano and jumped in. This kind of bilge is a part of Japanese culture,
and sometimes they act on it. Was there "only one way out" for Yukio
Mishima? Is not the suicide of Mishima the product of this Japanese
societal sickness, just as all the murders in the US are a product of
our different sort of warpage? I say yes, and I think a lot of you
turkeys sound like ghouls and sickos.
ucbvax!brahms!gsmith Gene Ward Smith/UCB Math Dept/Berkeley CA 94720
Fifty flippant frogs / Walked by on flippered feet
And with their slime they made the time / Unnaturally fleet.
norman
> and sometimes they act on it.
do you drive an automobile?
Ellen Eades
>
> >>...the Japanese are wonderful for
> >>romanticizing suicide like we Americans do violence
> >>(and also because of their willingness to slice up their friends)...
> >
> >agrees that there is only one way out.
>
> who realized they had achieved the heights of human bliss; so
> as a consequence, they walked arm-in-arm up a volcano and
> jumped in. This kind of bilge is a part of Japanese culture,
> and sometimes they act on it. Was there "only one way out" for Yukio
> Mishima? Is not the suicide of Mishima the product of this Japanese
> societal sickness, just as all the murders in the US are a product of
> our different sort of warpage? I say yes, and I think a lot of you
> turkeys sound like ghouls and sickos.
>
I have tried (really hard!) to stay out of this debate on
Japanese/Moslem attitudes toward suicide, but Mr. Smiths commeent
perpetrates some nasty stereotypes which I feel I must, as a
person of Japanese descent, oppose. Mishima, who incidentally
gets a lot more press in the US than he ever did in Japan, was
a right-wing fanatic and taken just about as seriously as, say,
Jerry Falwell here; that is to say, some idolized him, some
considered him dangerous, and some (my mother among them)
thought he was laughable, a raving lunatic not worth worry.
If Mr. Smith is referring to the story "Patriotism," or any other in
which Mishima extols the virtues of seppuku, he should know that
most Japanese are not extremist enough to regard this as other
than a right-wing's rhetoric. I strongly object to Mr. Smith's
blaming Mishima's suicide on any "societal sickness" of the
Japanese people. After all, the English literature has "Romeo
and Juliet," among others. I resent my culture's beliefs on
suicide being summed up pithily as "bilge," and I
suggest to Mr. Smith that his information has
been -- limited at best.
Gently, politely and restrainedly,
Ellen Eades
--
- - - - - - - - - - - - -
"Who's been repeating all that hard stuff to you?"
"I read it in a book," said Alice.
- - - - - - - - - - - - -
Matthew P. Wiener
>> >>...the Japanese are wonderful for
>> >>romanticizing suicide like we Americans do violence
>> >>(and also because of their willingness to slice up their friends)...
>> >
>> >a second for a japanese [understands and]
>> >agrees that there is only one way out.
>> jumped in. This kind of bilge is a part of Japanese culture,
>> and sometimes they act on it. Was there "only one way out" for Yukio
>> Mishima? Is not the suicide of Mishima the product of this Japanese
>> societal sickness, just as all the murders in the US are a product of
>
>I have tried (really hard!) to stay out of this debate on
>Japanese/Moslem attitudes toward suicide, but Mr. Smiths commeent
>perpetrates some nasty stereotypes which I feel I must, as a
>person of Japanese descent, oppose. Mishima, who incidentally
>gets a lot more press in the US than he ever did in Japan, was
>a right-wing fanatic and taken just about as seriously as, say,
>Jerry Falwell here; that is to say, some idolized him, some
There was a case in California recently that got a lot of attention about a
native Japanese woman, whose husband had been unfaithful, committed ritual
murder of her two children and then attempted to kill herself. The defense
argued that this was an acceptable Japanese response to her shame, and all
the newspaper accounts I read played on this. Could you clarify this Ellen?
No mention was made of her being a fanatic or anything.
Such tragedies do occur among Americans, of course, but the general attitude
is that this response is an act of further shame itself.
ucbvax!brahms!weemba Matthew P Wiener/UCB Math Dept/Berkeley CA 94720
Matthew P. Wiener
> Was there "only one way out" for Yukio
>Mishima? Is not the suicide of Mishima the product of this Japanese
>societal sickness,
Picking Yukio Mishima as an example of your point is extremely poor, Gene.
Writers and artists in general seem to have a higher suicide rate than
normal is the impression I have. Nobody would say the suicide of Hemingway
is the product of American societal sickness, but pick a Japanese and pow!
you've analyzed the reasons right there.
Perhaps the fact that Kawabata(*) offed himself too, at about the same
time, left an extra strong impression. But Oe is still going strong.
And I recall Bankei died naturally.
(*)my memory is failing here: I mean the author of _The Snow Country_.
Matthew P. Wiener
>
>>>...that the Japanese
>>>are wonderful for romanticizing suicide like we Americans do violence
>>>(and also because of their willingness to slice up their friends)...
>
>a volcano and jumped in. This kind of bilge is a part of Japanese culture,
>and sometimes they act on it.
The ----man who is caught spying or the like in -----ia, is given 24 hours
to arrange his affairs, and takes the honorable way out is romanticized in
Western culture too.
Gene Ward Smith
No. Do you?
ucbvax!brahms!gsmith Gene Ward Smith/UCB Math Dept/Berkeley CA 94720
Imagine what the world would be like if football was a worthy ritual performed
in stadiums but mathematics was a misunderstood activity ignored by almost all.