test for Jewishness

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H.SILBIGER

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Jul 16, 1984, 10:00:56 AM7/16/84
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Test for Jewishness = Eligibility for the concentration camps

Yehoyaqim Martillo

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Jul 17, 1984, 7:42:41 AM7/17/84
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>Test for Jewishness = Eligibility for the concentration camps

This statement is a rather negative definition of Jewishness and gives no
reason for pride in Jewishness.

--

Who wouldn't break for whales?

Yehoyaqim Shemtob Martillo

H.SILBIGER

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Jul 17, 1984, 8:56:51 AM7/17/84
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Re Martillo's comment that the "Test for Jewishness" gives no
reason for pride: You have to identify yourself as being Jewish
before you can develop pride. Pride has to come from knowledge.

Rich Rosen

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Jul 17, 1984, 3:42:39 PM7/17/84
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>>Test for Jewishness = Eligibility for the concentration camps

> This statement is a rather negative definition of Jewishness and gives no
> reason for pride in Jewishness.

> Yehoyaqim Shemtob Martillo

Exactly. The point being: why let other people define who YOU are?
Am I a Jew when Martillo has deemed it so? When Nazis have deemed it so?
Am I a Jew because you say I am? Do I have some obligations imposed on me
because someone else has stated that I am a member of some group without
my input or consideration?

I don't take statements like "You have to do it for your race/religion/family."
very seriously. Since, so often, such externally imposed obligations are used
as a propagandistic tool to rile you up to fight a bloody conflict for
something you have no part in and don't even believe in.
--
Now I've lost my train of thought. I'll have to catch the bus of thought.
Rich Rosen pyuxn!rlr

Yehoyaqim Martillo

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Jul 17, 1984, 8:53:19 PM7/17/84
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>>>Test for Jewishness = Eligibility for the concentration camps

>> This statement is a rather negative definition of Jewishness and gives no
>> reason for pride in Jewishness.
>> Yehoyaqim Shemtob Martillo

>Exactly. The point being: why let other people define who YOU are?
>Am I a Jew when Martillo has deemed it so? When Nazis have deemed it so?
>Am I a Jew because you say I am? Do I have some obligations imposed on me
>because someone else has stated that I am a member of some group without
>my input or consideration?

I do not define whether a person is Jewish. Mishpat yehudi (Jewish law)
does. Very often when I deal with ignorant secular Western VusVusim, who
make mindless statements, I rather wish I could define who is a Jew.
Rosen's statement is manifestly stupid. The U.S.A.
government places obligations on many people (perhaps even Mr. Rosen)
simply because an accident of birth (in which I doubt Mr. Rosen had any
input) made him fit the U.S.A. legal definition of citizen.

>I don't take statements like "You have to do it for your race/religion/family."
>very seriously. Since, so often, such externally imposed obligations are used
>as a propagandistic tool to rile you up to fight a bloody conflict for
>something you have no part in and don't even believe in.

Yet another mindless leftist VusVus cosmopolitan stupidity. Humans have
slaughtered each other for universalistic reasons (as in revolutionary
France, Russia or China) as least as often as they have slaughtered each
for narrow tribal reasons. Groveling cosmopolitan VusVusim were stunned
when the Nazis came for them. "How could modern civilized cultured human
beings who happened to be of German extraction somehow finger us modern
civilized cultured human beings who happen to be of Jewish extraction and
slaughter us." VusVusim like Rosen were utterly paralyzed into inaction.

But we primitive tribal Sefardim understood. Modern and civilized are just
buzzwords for the latest intellectual fad. Antiochus Epiphanos was
representive of the modern high culture of his age. Sometimes, the
stranger commits unspeakable crimes for no comprehensible reason. When he
attacks our brothers and sisters, we cut out his heart. If Rosen would not
even defend his family (and I assume that means his children as well), he
is beneath contempt and unworthy of any trust.

Knowing with absolute certainty when to fight for a cause perhaps requires
a prophet but at least we savages know when to defend ourselves.

Yosi Hoshen

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Jul 18, 1984, 10:28:46 AM7/18/84
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Rich Rosen = }

>>Test for Jewishness = Eligibility for the concentration camps

> This statement is a rather negative definition of Jewishness and gives no
> reason for pride in Jewishness.
> Yehoyaqim Shemtob Martillo

}Exactly. The point being: why let other people define who YOU are?
}Am I a Jew when Martillo has deemed it so? When Nazis have deemed it so?
}Am I a Jew because you say I am? Do I have some obligations imposed on me
}because someone else has stated that I am a member of some group without
}my input or consideration?
}
}I don't take statements like "You have to do it for your race/religion/family."
}very seriously. Since, so often, such externally imposed obligations are used
}as a propagandistic tool to rile you up to fight a bloody conflict for
}something you have no part in and don't even believe in.

I sympathize with Rich position. It would be nice if people would not
have to be classified by race, nation, religion, etc. The problem is
that we are living in a real world, not the world that we would like it
to be. If you, Rich, Yehoyaqim Shemtob Martillo and I were living in
Europe during WW II, the all three of us would find ourselves in a
German concentration camp. We would all be fully qualified for the Nazi
gas chambers as Jews. It would not make any difference if we did not know
of our Jewish background, whether we were atheists or orthodox, our fate
would be sealed. A very unpleasant and unjust situation, but a fact of life.
We could not escape from Europe. No country would accept us, not even the
US. Palestine would be also closed, because the British would not let
us in.
--

Yosi Hoshen
Bell Laboratories
Naperville, Illinois
(312)-979-7321
Mail: ihnp4!ihuxn!jho

Rich Rosen

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Jul 18, 1984, 12:45:19 PM7/18/84
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> >Exactly. The point being: why let other people define who YOU are?
> >Am I a Jew when Martillo has deemed it so? When Nazis have deemed it so?
> >Am I a Jew because you say I am? Do I have some obligations imposed on me
> >because someone else has stated that I am a member of some group without
> >my input or consideration?
>
> I do not define whether a person is Jewish. Mishpat yehudi (Jewish law)
> does. Very often when I deal with ignorant secular Western VusVusim, who
> make mindless statements, I rather wish I could define who is a Jew.

But, thankfully, you don't have that right. Nor do you or anyone else have
the right to assign me or anyone else to a particular group and to expect me
to adhere to YOUR "guidelines". IF I choose to join and belong to your
group (Jews as you require them to be), and if I seek the benefits of belonging
to such a group, then and only then are your group's rules binding on me.
Martillo would have me obeying his rules whether or not I chose to belong to
his group.

> Rosen's statement is manifestly stupid. The U.S.A.
> government places obligations on many people (perhaps even Mr. Rosen)
> simply because an accident of birth (in which I doubt Mr. Rosen had any
> input) made him fit the U.S.A. legal definition of citizen.

But I can always choose to cease belonging to that group, to renounce my
citizenship, thus renouncing both my obligations and privileges as a citizen.

>>I don't take statements like "You must do it for your race/religion/family."


>>very seriously. Since, so often, such externally imposed obligations are
>>used as a propagandistic tool to rile you up to fight a bloody conflict for
>>something you have no part in and don't even believe in.

> Yet another mindless leftist VusVus cosmopolitan stupidity. Humans have
> slaughtered each other for universalistic reasons (as in revolutionary
> France, Russia or China) as least as often as they have slaughtered each
> for narrow tribal reasons. Groveling cosmopolitan VusVusim were stunned
> when the Nazis came for them. "How could modern civilized cultured human
> beings who happened to be of German extraction somehow finger us modern
> civilized cultured human beings who happen to be of Jewish extraction and
> slaughter us." VusVusim like Rosen were utterly paralyzed into inaction.

All this paragraph shows is that 1) political tribalism is as good at
engendering terror as nationalistic/religious tribalism, and 2) that
there are situations in which it is worthwhile to band together to fight a
real common enemy. Unfortunately, one consequence of forced group
adherence is that people like Mr. Martillo expect to be able to tell me when
and what to fight.

> If Rosen would not
> even defend his family (and I assume that means his children as well), he
> is beneath contempt and unworthy of any trust.

I would defend those who were, to me, worth defending. Like my family. Like
my society, if it were to be under real attack. But where do you get off
telling ME or anybody else what they HAVE to defend!!!!!?

> Knowing with absolute certainty when to fight for a cause perhaps requires
> a prophet but at least we savages know when to defend ourselves.

... and, apparently, when to offend others. Please don't expect any further
correspondence from me on this topic, as I converse with enough brick walls
as it is.
--
It doesn't matter what you wear, just as long as you are there.
Rich Rosen pyuxn!rlr

h...@houxt.uucp

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Jul 18, 1984, 1:28:51 PM7/18/84
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Yosi Hoshen stated the following with regard to the Nazis having placed
different types of Jewish people into the gas chambers:
> ...It would not make any difference if we did not know of our Jewish

> background, whether we were atheists or orthodox, our fate would be
> sealed. A very unpleasant and unjust situation, but a fact of life.

The last statement of the excerpt bothers me. Would the situation have been
any less unjust were the Nazis to have allowed the differentiation between
the different beliefs held among different Jews?
--
Harlan B. Braude
{most "backbone" sites}!houxt!hbb

Yosi Hoshen

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Jul 18, 1984, 6:22:36 PM7/18/84
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Harlan B. Braude = }

I don't understand your point? I think that it is quite clear from the
context of my article that the Nazis were the ones who were not
differentiating when they placed Jews in the gas chambers. I tried
to illustrate the fact that Jews were exterminated by the Nazis because
they were Jews, and not because they adhered to a specific belief system.

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