Reply to Marty Smith
ar...@indian.dec.com
I LOVED your perverse explanation of the 'Christian' use of cursing!!
Truly an inspiration to us all. If only some of the other theologically
constipated netters could loosen up like you.
I'm sure you have a great future either as a Unitarian minister or a used
car salesman. (Perhaps BOTH - a full seven days of 'charging')
Marty takes 'God damm it' to new (not really, only on the net) heights!
In sum:
o it acknowledges God exists
o presumes he has power
o presuems he is listening
Ergo, actually an act of worship!
Even in the mouth of an unbeliever it is a 'tribute' to a believer's faith.
Why oh why do you have to be in California? Think of the theological
discussions we could have! You are creative, intelligent and slightly bent.
Count me as one of your 'fans'.
So nice try. But in reality the Apostle Paul nails guys like you way back in
the first century. "Should we sin that grace may more abound" is the way he
puts it. Of course his answer is NO! Because, you see, even further back
Moses passed on the word, "Thou shalt not take the name of the Lord thy God
in vain."
The entire sin of man may be summed up in the idea that he presumes the
perogitives of God! Per my original posting's definition of blasphemy.
Man has a wide legitimate range of 'improvement' and 'movement' designed
and ordained by God. 'Fulfillment' IS finding one's place!! And staying
there. That's were it all comes together for one.
You try to say presuming the perogitives is 'getting closer to God'. Worship!
Rather it's foolishness. Dangerous and evil. Like jumping off the theological
garage roof with a hanky held by the ends.
Let me give you an example of what I mean - I know you realy are only trying
to pull my chain. Remember the Greek myth of the guy who asked for eternal
life and forgot to ask for eternal youth??? He just got older and older and
could never die! Horror. Must have driven his kids (all generations) into
the Poor House paying for all that Dad Kennel space. Just so when Christians
pray and close the prayer, as we have been instructed to do for this very
reason, "If it be thy will". Because it could be a horror if we actually got
everything we ask for. So we acknowledge God's attributes/perogitives in
dealing with our requests.
Care to try your hand on the Trinity? I'm not trying to get you to blaspheme
but you have perhaps a talent for viewing things from a different angle and
I don't beleive you believe what you are saying.
Thanks for the fun.
Keep chargin'
Ken Arndt
Marty Smith
In article <55...@decwrl.DEC.COM> ar...@indian.dec.com writes:
[minor deletion]
>Marty takes 'God damm it' to new (not really, only on the net) heights!
>In sum:
> o it acknowledges God exists
> o presumes he has power
> o presuems he is listening
>
> Ergo, actually an act of worship!
>
>Even in the mouth of an unbeliever it is a 'tribute' to a believer's faith.
[minor deletion]
>So nice try. But in reality the Apostle Paul nails guys like you way back in
>the first century. "Should we sin that grace may more abound" is the way he
>puts it. Of course his answer is NO! Because, you see, even further back
>Moses passed on the word, "Thou shalt not take the name of the Lord thy God
>in vain."
>
>The entire sin of man may be summed up in the idea that he presumes the
>perogitives of God!
What does this phrase mean: "presumes the perogatives of God?"
(a) takes on the powers of God; or
(b) assumes God has those powers.
I assume you mean (a) because there is clearly nothing sinful about (b). But
how does use of the curse "God damn it" imply that I am trying to take on the
powers of God? It does not. If I could take on the powers of God, I could
damn whatever I please. But I would be a benevolent God, so I wouldn't
really damn anybody. I might put the fear of Me in the fundamentalists
though.
No, use of the curse does not presume the perogatives of God, because I know
I cannot do such a thing. I *do* exist. God saw to that. But I'm neither
omnipotent nor omniscient, and there is no danger of me attaining either
status soon. So I can't damn anything, and I know it. So, to persist in the
belief that cursing presumes the perogatives of God is mere superstition.
Now what of Paul's question: "Should we sin that grace may more abound?" If
sinning actually increased the amount of grace, then I would say yes, we
ought to sin, because grace is certainly something we need more of. Sinning
would thus be a form of self-sacrifice, again a form of worship. "I do this
fornication willingly, that there may be more grace in the world."
Why did Paul have to be unclear about what he was saying? Why didn't he
just say, "Sin does not increase the amount of grace. If you sin, your
personal grace level will be lowered." He confused the issue by asking
the question in such a way that the answer is not clear.
As for Moses's statement, "Thou shalt not take the name of the Lord thy God
in vain;" this is a command, not an argument that one ought not to take the
Lord's name in vain. But such an argument would be obviously true. If God
exists, is omnipotent, and is omniscient, only a fool would run the risk of
pissing him off. But the important question is, how does one take the name
of the Lord thy God in vain? Use of the curse "God damn it" does not. It
acknowledges the aforementioned perogatives. I claim you only see it as
blasphemy, because your vision is made cloudy by quotes from the Bible.
Statements of the form "God does not exist" are statements that take the name
of the Lord thy God in vain and are blasphemous. That is, when the statement
"God does not exist" is uttered as a declaration that, indeed, there is no
God, then the person uttering that statement has, from the Christian point of
view, taken the name of the Lord thy God in vain.
>Man has a wide legitimate range of 'improvement' and 'movement' designed
>and ordained by God. 'Fulfillment' IS finding one's place!! And staying
>there. That's were it all comes together for one.
Well put. May we both find our respective places. Or have you already found
yours?
>You try to say presuming the perogitives is 'getting closer to God'. Worship!
>Rather it's foolishness. Dangerous and evil. Like jumping off the theological
>garage roof with a hanky held by the ends.
I say I am NOT presuming the perogatives of God, but this brings up an
interesting contradiction. If presuming the perogatives of God is sin
(shouldn't we be saying "PRErogatives"?), but I am (a) created in God's image
and (b) supposed to strive for the perfection of being one with God, then
where must I stop so as not to presume the prerogatives of God?
As for jumping off the theological garage roof with a hanky held by the ends,
this would be an act of great faith for a believer who knew nothing of
parachute-ology.
>Care to try your hand on the Trinity? I'm not trying to get you to blaspheme
>but you have perhaps a talent for viewing things from a different angle and
>I don't beleive you believe what you are saying.
You start. Whatever I post won't be blasphemy from my point of view, and I
won't deliberately try to offend. But I do believe what I am saying, not
with the fanaticism of a fundamentalist, but with the healthy doubts of one
who has not yet found his place.
One more thing: If you are correct, and use of the curse "God damn it" does
presume the prerogatives of God, then so does "God bless you."
God bless you, Ken Arndt.
Marty Smith
Marty Smith
use below of the term evil.
>You try to say presuming the perogitives is 'getting closer to God'. Worship!
>Rather it's foolishness. Dangerous and evil. Like jumping off the theological
>garage roof with a hanky held by the ends.
I've already said I do not presume the prerogatives of God when I curse,
because it is impossible to presume the prerogatives of God. It is indeed
foolishness to believe that I could. But it is not evil. Evil is that
which causes suffering and which intends to cause that suffering. When I
curse with "God damn it," I am at that moment in a state of suffering. I
utter the curse to help relieve the suffering. Therefore it is not evil.
It would be evil, if I did it to offend a fundamentalist for example, because
the offense would cause the fundamentalist to suffer, and I would utter the
curse for the purpose of causing that suffering.
But fundamentalism itself causes suffering, in the form of the needless guilt
some poor believers feel over the non-sins they have committed. The question
is, is fundamentalism motivated to cause this guilt? If so, then it is evil.
Marty Smith
Kim Vandemore
>
>So nice try. But in reality the Apostle Paul nails guys like you....
>
>Thanks for the fun.
>
>Keep chargin'
>
>Ken Arndt
In a reply to Ken, I asked if I might at have met him at Groton; since
he verbally thrashed the 'public school trash!' concerning cursing fig
trees. However, he obviously leans towards a more Paulian (read Cath-
olic) philosophy and obviously did not attend that Anglican institution
(although the Kennedys did.)
Of course, it could be possible that he, himself, may have attended a
(shutter) public school. But, I digress. Paul was in the habit of nail-
ing Christians until his consience (some say vision) caught up with him.
Then he attempted to belittle his Pharisee brothers by confronting them
in the Damascus temple. Imagine, this would be similar to Reagan joining
the Communist Party and then proseltizing at the National Headquarters of
the John Birch Society.
Actually, Paul was a self-centered, woman hating religious politician who
jumped onto the Christian bandwagon because he could not advance as a
Pharisee (even they hated tax collectors.) Consequently, Paul gained rel-
igious power in the same way Hitler gained political power. They were much
alike.
Just think, Christianity owes its' entire philosophy to this one man (well,
at least the most of it.) So, Christianity, itself, is a myth and definitely
pagan. Superstition, lies and cant its' only redeeming qualities. God is
forgotten and replaced by ritual heresy. Jesus would shutter at the idolatry.
So Ken, you privileged, private school preppy--Keep on Charging!
Tad Dowe
M.A.Gore - ICR
It would seem that *your* idea of the word DAMN - Damnation
is not a curse. Well this is an English problem as well.
The place or the state of damnation is that of the final loss
of soul or destruction. So when you say 'God Damn' you instruct
God to Damn whatever your talking about. To use the word by
definition is to Swear -and you are telling God to Damn something which
isn't *our* right. Even though *you* don't mean anything bad -if I get
the drift. You knew or now know *what* you are saying. To 'DAMN'
something is to Judge it because the *word* damnation from it's
Greek word (See Unger's Bible dictionary or a Bible with a concordance)
*is* the place of Judgement and destruction. But beyond that *no place*
in the Bible is using the word Damn or a Curse *like* it given in
the Light you would like to use it (harmless in your eye's). If
something happens bad we should have sorrow! Look at Job what was
his example? He had enough to be sad about but his Joy was in God.
Show examples where a Curse was worship and the word
was 'DAMN' in the Bible. Or try to use Scripture to give light
to your ideas. This might clear things up -Remember that 'DAMN' is
the place of Judgement/destruction. Then follow this thought:
Deuteronomy 1:17
" Do not show partiality in judging; hear both small and
great alike. Do not be afraid of any man, for
judgement belongs to God."
^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^
Isiah 58:11 (NIV) "...and not doing as you please or speaking
*idle* [my emph.] words, then you will find your joy in the Lord..."
So what are 'idle' words? Try words said *without* thought - as if to
make idle 'damnation' *because you said you DID NOT mean it* - well
that is idle. You can say that you mean good by it *but* you thus
make the word 'idle' the further from it's intent you make it....
Well perhaps I understand where you were coming from now. But
still the point stands. You might now understand why people quoted
the various verses to you...
Keep looking. I trust God will make things clear as you search
with your heart....
# Mike Gore
# Institute for Computer Research.
# These ideas/concepts do not imply views held by the University of Waterloo.
M.A.Gore - ICR
[much deleted ... more after this]
To which I reply (being out of form to raise a point -but *not* to
endorse my method of doing so....) :
For a moment I thought this came from the HASA -On a bad day
I try not to think of them as the (Heckling Antics Slander Abyss -HASA).
It was the style that deceived me. Statements that don't diplomatically
*try* to understand the 'other' side but use slander (perhaps unwitting)
to replace objectivity. They dump so much garbage at every turn they
can't even 'smell' the answers we give through the stink they make -let
alone make sense of them. Try to tell us that 2 + 2 = 5 for large values
of 2 just to prove how dumb *we* are (-:. But I digress... So ask me what
have I just done (re HASA)? Is it right? Does reason win? Is Christ
honored? *NO!* We learn over and over Christian or non-Christian that
free society *dies* when *such* tactics replace diplomacy, reason or truth...
But *please* in case you believe what you write here try to
understand us ok? What use (purpose) are your statements?
So many...'so soooo many myths about what Christians believe where is one
to start' -I ask myself? How is one take your meaning?
You state:
= Actually, Paul was a self-centered, woman hating religious politician who
= jumped onto the Christian bandwagon because he could not advance as a
= Pharisee (even they hated tax collectors.) Consequently, Paul gained
= religious power in the same way Hitler gained political power. They were
= much alike.
= Just think, Christianity owes its' entire philosophy to this one man
= (well, at least the most of it.) So, Christianity, itself, is a myth
= and definitely pagan. Superstition, lies and cant its' only redeeming
= qualities. God is forgotten and replaced by ritual heresy. Jesus
= would shutter at the idolatry.
^^^^^^^^
...Jesus would have tears in his eyes after reading this....
As a wise and weary 'sheep' I utter a parable an idea an example
a thought - To defend to instruct:
'...In humiliation the WORD was deprived of justice.
Who can speak of Tad's sources? For his
ideas were taken out of thin air...'
(ACTS 8:33 NIV -paraphrase mine)
Jesus died because of lies and mocking...
So Enough said...
= So Ken, you privileged, private school preppy--Keep on Charging!
= Tad Dowe
I thank God for Ken and other Christians on this net.
(PS. No harm intended Tad -don't misunderstand. I tried to use humour -
what ever I could think of to get the point home on your level. Just
wanted to make you think about what you said ok? Please keep searching
though...)
Marty Smith
In article <25...@watdcsu.UUCP> mag...@watdcsu.UUCP (M.A.Gore - ICR) writes:
>
> It would seem that *your* idea of the word DAMN - Damnation
>is not a curse. Well this is an English problem as well.
Now we're getting somewhere. I don't know where yet, but it seems a person's
attitude is important when cursing.
> The place or the state of damnation is that of the final loss
>of soul or destruction. So when you say 'God Damn' you instruct
>God to Damn whatever your talking about.
I never instruct God to do anything. I never even ask God to do anything.
God is omniscient and omnipotent. I have no power over God. I cannot
instruct God. I am God's creation. When I say "God damn it," I express
how I feel: very negative. If, on the other hand, I believe that I can
presume the prerogatives of God and I say "God damn it," then I am guilty
of using God's name in vain. Your claim that this is true all of the time
is based on your incorrectly presuming my prerogatives. That is, you presume
to know my attitude. Or, you presume that I must have your attitude in order
to be a Christian. You have judged me in a way reserved for God alone.
>To use the word by
>definition is to Swear -and you are telling God to Damn something which
>isn't *our* right. Even though *you* don't mean anything bad -if I get
>the drift.
This is part of what I mean, and you continue to say that it is wrong in
spite of my assurances. This can only mean that the words themselves are
what you are afraid of. This is idolatry on your part.
>You knew or now know *what* you are saying. To 'DAMN'
>something is to Judge it because the *word* damnation from it's
>Greek word (See Unger's Bible dictionary or a Bible with a concordance)
>*is* the place of Judgement and destruction. But beyond that *no place*
>in the Bible is using the word Damn or a Curse *like* it given in
>the Light you would like to use it (harmless in your eye's).
I'm sure you are correct about damn in the Bible. God knows what I am
thinking when I use the curse, because God is omniscient. And because only
God is omnipotent, my use of the curse *is* harmless unless God chooses
to do someting about it.
>If something happens bad we should have sorrow! Look at Job what was
>his example? He had enough to be sad about but his Joy was in God.
>
> Show examples where a Curse was worship and the word
>was 'DAMN' in the Bible. Or try to use Scripture to give light
>to your ideas.
I admit that I cannot do what you ask. Christiandom has not allowed the
Bible to change over the centuries. Thus, the Bible has lost meaning
rather than gained.
And please forgive me; I sense that I have offended you with my arguments.
That is not my purpose.
>This might clear things up -Remember that 'DAMN' is
>the place of Judgement/destruction. Then follow this thought:
>
> Deuteronomy 1:17
> " Do not show partiality in judging; hear both small and
> great alike. Do not be afraid of any man, for
> judgement belongs to God."
> ^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^
Clearly, this does not say that I should not judge, only that my judgements
cannot send any man to heaven or to hell.
> Isiah 58:11 (NIV) "...and not doing as you please or speaking
> *idle* [my emph.] words, then you will find your joy in the Lord..."
>
> So what are 'idle' words? Try words said *without* thought - as if to
>make idle 'damnation' *because you said you DID NOT mean it* - well
>that is idle. You can say that you mean good by it *but* you thus
>make the word 'idle' the further from it's intent you make it....
My curses are definitely not idle. They relieve a measure of internal
suffering. No wonder then that I associate them with prayer. How is this
relief obtained? Is it not from God? I believe it is not from Satan. I
believe it is from God.
> Well perhaps I understand where you were coming from now. But
>still the point stands. You might now understand why people quoted
>the various verses to you...
I do understand, and appreciate your ideas.
> Keep looking. I trust God will make things clear as you search
>with your heart....
Thank you.
Marty Smith
Oleg Kill the bastards Kiselev
for close to a month without responding to his audacious, arrogant,
condescending and patronizing inanities. ENOUGH! When someone undeservedly
maligns the name of HASA (and we have plenty of LEGITEMATE reasons to malign
us ;-) -- I can hold back no longer!
I have many very nasty things to say to M.A.Gore, but I will not. All I am
asking is:
M.A. Gore! Either stay in [net|mod].religion.christian and do
whatever you please, or TRY to be civil and polite to your readers.
That includes abandoning your libelous and unsubstantiated attacks
on HASA, your patronizing and condescending attitude toward your
readers, thinly veiled contempt and even hatered of non-Xtians,
your self-righteousness backed up by your mis-interpretation of a
mis-translation of a very poor piece of 2000-year old religious
propaganda... You can keep your blind faith and your psychotic
delusions -- as long as WE are not subjected to a continual barrage
of your misguided zeal.
Oleg Kiselev, HASA, "A" division founder.
rush
>I never instruct God to do anything. I never even ask God to do anything.
I am glad that you do not 'instruct' God to do anything.
We are instructed by Jesus to ask things of God.
"Truly, truly I say to you, if you shall ask the Father
for anything, He will give it to you in My name"
- John 16:23
"If you then being evil, know how to give good gifts to your
children, how much more shall your heavenly Father give
the Holy Spirit to those who ask Him?"
- Luke 11:13
]
>When I say "God damn it," I express
>how I feel: very negative. If, on the other hand, I believe that I can
>presume the prerogatives of God and I say "God damn it," then I am guilty
>of using God's name in vain.
Now to the meat of the matter:
"But now you also, put them all aside: anger, wrath, malice, slander,
and abusive speech from your mouth. Do not lie to one another,
since you laid aside the old self with its evil practices."
-Colossians 3:8,9
Scripture speaks about the difference between the old unregenerate man and
the new life of all men who are in Christ at great length. In fact I believe
that scripture can speak on this subject much more clearly than I.
"But as for you, speak the things which are fitting for sound
doctrine...in all things show yourself to be an example of
good deeds, with purity in doctrine, dignified, sound in speech
which is beyond reproach, in order that the opponent may be put
to shame, having nothing bad to say about us. "
-Titus 2:1,7-8
"But no one can tame the tongue...With it we bless our Lord and
Father; and with it we curse men...From the same mouth come both
blessing and cursing. My brethren, these things ought not to be
this way. Does a fountain send out from the same opening both
both fresh and bitter water?"
-James 3:8-11
Personally, I think that the reason that scripture speaks about the speech
of the believers as it does, is because our speech is one of the most
visible aspects of our christian lives. What is it that people about you
see when you curse? Is it Christ Jesus? Paul writes "do not be conformed
to the world." (Romans 12:1) The world about certainly does curse, and
in fact I see it quite often.
On the issue of relieving negativity:
"And so, as those who have been chosen of God, holy and beloved,
put on a heart of compassion, kindness, humility, gentleness,
and patience; bearing with one another, and forgiving each other,
whoever has a complaint against anyone; just as the Lord forgave
you, so also should you....And let the peace of Christ rule in
your hearts...And whatever you do in word or deed, do all in the
name of the Lord Jesus, giving thanks through Him to God the
Father."
-Colossians 3:12,13,15,17
Does your swearing give thanks to God? Does feeling "negative" (angry,wrathful,
etc...) spring from a thankful heart? I do not claim that I am never angry
or unthankful in my heart towards God. In fact I have just finished spending
the most miserable summer of my life being angry at God in my heart. However,
the place the that anger was relieved was in my prayer closet, when I was on
my knees, repenting before the Lord. There is no joy without God. The prayer
closet is the appropriate place to relieve negativity, where I cannot cause
my brothers to stumble.
>Christiandom has not allowed the
>Bible to change over the centuries. Thus, the Bible has lost meaning
>rather than gained.
>
The message of the Bible does not need to change. I understand it to be this:
God is and is Holy.
Jesus is God incarnate (an amazing thing).
Christ was crucified to atone for man's sins.
Jesus rose from the dead.
I personally believe that those parts of the Bible that are not declaring
these things are describing the implications of them. The meaning of the
Bible does not need to change "Jesus Christ is the same yesterday, today,
yes and forever." (Hebrews 13:8)
>And please forgive me; I sense that I have offended you with my arguments.
>That is not my purpose.
>
> Marty Smith
I can see that it was not your purpose to offend, none is taken. However,
we are also not to conduct our lives in a way to cause offense. In closing
I would also offer this scripture - "Remind them of these things, and
solemnly charge them in the presence of God not to wrangle about words, which
is useless, and leads to the destruction of the hearers." (2 Timothy 2:14)
In Christ's name,
Richard Rush - just another Jesus freak in computer science
decvax!cwruecmp!cwrudg!rush
All scripture quotations are from the New American Standard Bible.
Marty Smith
Richard, most of your posting was based on the wisdom that is in the
Bible, and so I found it to be of great value. On the issues below, however,
I disagree.
In article <1...@cwrudg.UUCP> ru...@cwrudg.UUCP () writes:
>
>On the issue of relieving negativity:
>
> "And so, as those who have been chosen of God, holy and beloved,
> put on a heart of compassion, kindness, humility, gentleness,
> and patience; bearing with one another, and forgiving each other,
> whoever has a complaint against anyone; just as the Lord forgave
> you, so also should you....And let the peace of Christ rule in
> your hearts...And whatever you do in word or deed, do all in the
> name of the Lord Jesus, giving thanks through Him to God the
> Father."
> -Colossians 3:12,13,15,17
>
>Does your swearing give thanks to God? Does feeling "negative" (angry,wrathful,
>etc...) spring from a thankful heart? I do not claim that I am never angry
>or unthankful in my heart towards God. In fact I have just finished spending
>the most miserable summer of my life being angry at God in my heart. However,
>the place the that anger was relieved was in my prayer closet, when I was on
>my knees, repenting before the Lord. There is no joy without God. The prayer
>closet is the appropriate place to relieve negativity, where I cannot cause
>my brothers to stumble.
My swearing does not give thanks to God. Neither does it blame God. But I
think the issue of swearing has worn out its welcome here. The issue of
negative feelings, however, is interesting. I think, since I became an
educated person (whatever that means), I have never been angry at God. It
simply doesn't make any sense. *I* am responsible for my actions, not God.
If I make a mistake, it is my responsibility, not God's.
If an earthquake causes a house to fall on me, that's the way the universe
is. That *is* God. It makes no sense to waste time complaining that God
ought to be otherwise.
When I'm angry, I take responsibility for my anger, and, knowing that it
will destroy my body and my mind if I do nothing about it, I relieve it in
one of many ways that works. One of those ways that works for me is by
cursing.
It is commendable that you, filled with rage, can go into a closet, meditate,
and come out with a smile on your face, but it doesn't work for me. For me,
anger almost always manifests itself physically, and I jump up and down and
curse: scream therapy. It works.
>>Christiandom has not allowed the
>>Bible to change over the centuries. Thus, the Bible has lost meaning
>>rather than gained.
>>
>The message of the Bible does not need to change. I understand it to be this:
>
> God is and is Holy.
> Jesus is God incarnate (an amazing thing).
> Christ was crucified to atone for man's sins.
> Jesus rose from the dead.
If that's all there is to the Bible, then we can do away with it and just use
your clear, concise summary. But, of course, that's not the case. There is
much more to the Bible. My point was that, unfortunately, the Bible has been
translated many times, and the meanings of the words have changed in the
millenia since it was written. It seems at least reasonable then that
without changing the words to keep up (not The Word, but, the words), the
meaning would also change (not the intended meaning, but, the meaning we get
when we read the words (not The Word, but, the words)).
>I personally believe that those parts of the Bible that are not declaring
>these things are describing the implications of them. The meaning of the
>Bible does not need to change "Jesus Christ is the same yesterday, today,
>yes and forever." (Hebrews 13:8)
Good point. In fact, if the meaning of the Bible changes, then something is
wrong.
Marty Smith