Taxing Schools Etc. (paranoid educational establishment)
Tom Albrecht
>I agree with your priorities, which makes me reject your position.
>Since early 60's, as government kept throwing more and more
>money at public schools, the education level was steadily
>going down. That system does not work. If you want to
>develop minds, try another system.
>
>Another point is that the public school system is too standard-
>ized, too uniform. The minds capable of designing new things
>(like the ones you quoted), have to be *different* from each oth-
>er. It is useless to have the *same* idea a million times over.
>
>Let us therefore give kids *different* backgrounds.
>It was important in an industrial society, it is *necessary*
>in a post-industrial one. The pluralism described in
>the top paragraph is just what we need.
>
> Jan Wasilewsky
Secretary of Education Bennett relates the story of a school system in the
midwest that set up a sort of magnet school specializing in the humanities.
The educational possibilities were so superior to other schools in the same
system that four times as many students applied as there were
openings in the school. So what did the benighted school officials do?
Did they open another school or two in order to accommodate the demand for
quality education? No, they shut down the new school because they said it
was "unworkable". This sort of story only points out the utter failure of
public education. As long as "professional educators" run the system, the
public schools are doomed to failure. In New Jersey, Governor Kean has
said that a degree from a teacher's college is no longer needed to teach in
the state. All one needs to show is a proficiency in the subject area and
an ability to communicate with young people and you can teach in NJ
schools. Someone is finally moving to break the death grip that the
educational establishment has on the public schools.
95% of Americans support the concept of merit pay and teacher competency
tests. Americans believe that good teachers should be paid more money and
that bad teachers should be fired to make room for better teachers.
Teachers unions, on the other hand, want more money but are unwilling to
submit themselves to any review process linked to salary increases.
Teachers say they want to be treated like professionals, but are unwilling
to accept the same sort of qualification process that other professionals
have. Would you want a doctor who refused to take medical board exams and be
licensed by the state medical association to operate on your 9 year old
child? Would you go to a lawyer who didn't take the Bar exam? It's
time people started using some common sense when picking their children's
education. Teachers and school administrators better get it through their
heads that they work for the parents and not for themselves nor the
teacher's unions.
--
Tom Albrecht
Geoff Kimbrough
>ja...@inmet.UUCP writes:
>>I agree with your priorities, which makes me reject your position.
>>Since early 60's, as government kept throwing more and more
Adjusted for inflation? Per capita? Per student?
>>money at public schools, the education level was steadily
>>going down. That system does not work.
have been *no* other relevent changes in our society since the 60's?
What about the changes in demographics? What about TV? What about
the changes in the structure and stability of the family? What
about the increase in mobility (people moving the household more
often)? More money is not the whole solution, agreed, but how is
less money going to solve anything?
>Secretary of Education Bennett relates the story of a school system in the
>midwest that set up a sort of magnet school specializing in the humanities.
>The educational possibilities were so superior to other schools in the same
>system that four times as many students applied as there were
>openings in the school. So what did the benighted school officials do?
schools, but lacked the funds.
>Did they open another school or two in order to accommodate the demand for
>quality education? No, they shut down the new school because they said it
>was "unworkable". This sort of story only points out the utter failure of
>public education.
country have been tremendously successful. One of the problems
they face is the perceived "brain-drain" which may hurt the
schools as a whole. The only solution I can see to that is to
make ALL of the schools magnet schools. But that would take lots
of money. Personally, I think it would be worth it.
> In New Jersey, Governor Kean has
>said that a degree from a teacher's college is no longer needed to teach in
>the state. All one needs to show is a proficiency in the subject area and
>an ability to communicate with young people and you can teach in NJ
>schools. Someone is finally moving to break the death grip that the
>educational establishment has on the public schools.
attract more teachers, instead of raising salaries or improving
working conditions.
>95% of Americans support the concept of merit pay and teacher competency
>tests. Americans believe that good teachers should be paid more money and
>that bad teachers should be fired to make room for better teachers.
>Teachers unions, on the other hand, want more money but are unwilling to
>submit themselves to any review process linked to salary increases.
to want to get rid of the bad eggs too, but there's a lot of
disagreement about how to identify them. As in all fields, the bad
eggs are often very politically adept. It's not a simple problem.
In LA schools, raises are linked to continued training, the teachers
have to go to school themselves if they want to get their raises.
>Teachers say they want to be treated like professionals, but are unwilling
>to accept the same sort of qualification process that other professionals
want it? Teachers currently have certification procedures, but
you said you approve of eliminating them.
>have. Would you want a doctor who refused to take medical board exams and be
>licensed by the state medical association to operate on your 9 year old
>child? Would you go to a lawyer who didn't take the Bar exam?
after 20 years in the field was less than $30,000? (not enough) How
good would they be? (probably Damn good, they'd have to be pretty
committed to keep working for peanuts, at least until they burned
out.) How effective would they be if they were denied support staff
and modern equipment? (answer left as an exercise for the student)
> Teachers and school administrators better get it through their
>heads that they work for the parents and not for themselves nor the
>teacher's unions.
teachers are facing is that they're being expected to raise other
people's children for them. Teachers are spending too much of their
precious time dealing with discipline problems which aren't being
dealt with at home. They get blamed for the illiteracy of students
who've never attended classes. Did you know that in Los Angeles,
an elementary school teacher is not *allowed* to fail a student
without parental permission? Guess how often they get it.
>Tom Albrecht
Someone pointed out that a less generic educational system is needed
to produce the kind of specialized talents required in our current
society. I agree. I hope no one is naive enough to think that it
won't cost big bucks. TANSTAAFL. Of course it takes more than just
money, lots more.
Geoffrey Kimbrough -- Director of Dangerous Activities
INTERACTIVE Systems Corporation, Santa Monica California
ihnp4!ima!geoff || sdcrdcf!ism780c!geoff || ucla-cs!ism780!geoff
When I die I'm leaving my body to Science Fiction.
Larry Campbell
[starts with comments with which I agree, so they're not reproduced here]
>> In New Jersey, Governor Kean has
>>said that a degree from a teacher's college is no longer needed to teach in
>>the state. All one needs to show is a proficiency in the subject area and
>>an ability to communicate with young people and you can teach in NJ
>>schools. ...
> It sounds to me like Gov Kean is just lowering standards to
> attract more teachers, instead of raising salaries or improving
> working conditions.
Oh come on. Education degrees are nearly worthless. The school I went
to (UMass) is one of the better state universities. All Education
courses were stricly pass/fail, and hardly anyone ever failed.
Education as a major was regarded as a four-year vacation. Sure, some
bright people took Education because they *really wanted to teach*,
and some of them even survived the asinine course material. But it's
crazy to deny intelligent, articulate people the opportunity to teach
simply because they didn't sit through four years of crap (three
years, after you subtract student teaching). Interestingly, private
schools benefit from this stupidity because they're not constrained to
hiring certified mediocrities -- they're allowed to hire non-certified
but competent teachers.
This doesn't mean I oppose higher salaries. I say raise salaries,
reduce political and union-induced obstacles to firing deadwood, and
eliminate this STUPID credentialism that needlessly excludes some of
the best teachers.
>>heads that they work for the parents and not for themselves nor the
>>teacher's unions.
> No they don't! They work for the students. ...
Well, this is a nice thought, but naive. Allow me to cynically point
out that the purpose of public schooling is not education, but
indoctrination. Not that I agree with this. I wish the purpose WERE
education. But public schooling appeared in this country largely as a
means of insuring that the children of immigrants (1) spoke English,
and (2) were able to be employed in factories and other workplaces.
Sorry to pick on these points, because I agree with the rest of the
Geoff's article. What we need is higher salaries, more administrative
autonomy, more teacher accountability, more reading and discipline at
home, and less TV.
--
Larry Campbell The Boston Software Works, Inc.
ARPA: campbell%maynar...@harvard.ARPA 120 Fulton Street, Boston MA 02109
UUCP: {alliant,wjh12}!maynard!campbell (617) 367-6846
Mark Horton
>midwest that set up a sort of magnet school specializing in the humanities.
>The educational possibilities were so superior to other schools in the same
>system that four times as many students applied as there were
>openings in the school. So what did the benighted school officials do?
>Did they open another school or two in order to accommodate the demand for
>quality education? No, they shut down the new school because they said it
>was "unworkable". This sort of story only points out the utter failure of
>public education.
I'll see your anecdote, and back it up with specifics:
From the Sept 11, 1986 Columbus (Ohio) Dispatch:
"Children in private schools may begin trickling back to
Columbus Public Schools if a proposed reorganization becomes
reality... The reorganization ... includes plans to add 15
alternative schools to the existing 10.
"John Grossman, head of the teachers union, said he thinks the
district could compete much more aggressively with private
schools under the redesign because it would offer more
choices. ...
"The plan would make elementary schools kindergarten through
fifth grades, reduce the number of children bused for
desegregation and reopen five vacant schools. It would go into
effect the 1978-88 school year.
"Thirteen kinds of alternative school programs would be
fofered, including schools centered on French and Spanish,
international studies, sports, and the Montessori approach.
The final form of the reorganization will be decided after the
district holds public hearings in the next few weeks."
Background: Columbus schools were the first in the nation to undergo
forced busing for desegregation, and there's been a steady flight to
the suburbs ever since. A deal was cut this summer whereby people who
live in a suburban school district but are in the (somewhat extended)
city limits of Columbus [this includes me] cannot be annexed into the
Columbus school district, and hence cannot be bussed across town.
(In return, Columbus gets some of the tax base from such regions,
and is expected to annex any future developments that are annexed
into the city. Also, there is a provision for students to attend
a different district if there's a program they want in the other
district.)
Columbus "alternative schools" run the gamit of choices, including
gifted programs. They have a good reputation.
Columbus is the largest city in Ohio, with a population of about
750,000, and roughly twice that number in the county.
Ohio schools are in fat city the past few years, because a large
chunk of the state lottery proceeds are earmarked for the schools.
Mark
Joe Public
>> In New Jersey, Governor Kean has
>>said that a degree from a teacher's college is no longer needed to teach in
>>the state. All one needs to show is a proficiency in the subject area and
>>an ability to communicate with young people and you can teach in NJ
>>schools. Someone is finally moving to break the death grip that the
>>educational establishment has on the public schools.
> It sounds to me like Gov Kean is just lowering standards to
> attract more teachers, instead of raising salaries or improving
> working conditions.
> Geoffrey Kimbrough -- Director of Dangerous Activities
Now, let's not be so hasty here. Sounds very like a private school with
which I had connection. Only one of the teachers there that I know of had a
degree in education, but all were proficient in their subjects (the English
teacher had a Master's degree in English, for example), all put in many long
hours staying after school to help students, coming in early to help
students, all worked for peanuts (no, peanuts would've been an improvement
over what they were paid), but all were dedicated to the students. The
result was that, on the average, the students were a year and a half to two
years ahead of their age group in the public schools, who were taught by
certified teachers. So, even with low salaries, poor working conditions,
and no state certifications this kind of system can work.
--calvin richter--