AD&D sucks

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Oct 20, 1982, 2:28:39 AM10/20/82
In a possibly vain attempt to get some discussion
on this group, I will now come out of the closet
publicly and say I think that Advanced Dungeons
and Dragons is a very poor excuse for a game.
Gary Gygax has no conception of how books are
actually used in a play situation, and a very
poor ability to understand hand-to-hand combat.
Further, the magic system is totally counter-
intuitive. Finally, the importance of magic
items (as well as the ideas of class and level)
depersonalizes characters, leading to a "rogue"-
type environment. (Oh yes, the description of
gods in terms of hit dice, etc., is totally
useless to the DM, and the unarmed combat system
is an atrocity; sorry to have forgotten these.)
The only reason that AD&D is the most popular
FRP game around is that it has a major lead on
the others--unfortunately, TSR has not used
this time to improve the rules, only to lengthen

The only game I know of that's worse than AD&D,
aside from basic D&D, is Tunnels and Trolls.
Both RuneQuest and The Fantasy Trip provide much
better alternatives, and I am told that SPI's
DragonQuest (now owned by TSR) is hard to learn
but very smooth once one learns it. I strongly
recommend that any AD&D player buy RuneQuest
and play a few games before further glorifying
their rather primitive game.

I suppose I should be afraid to sign my name,
Tim Maroney (unc!tim)


Oct 20, 1982, 8:47:02 AM10/20/82
Well, who do you think is going argue with you? Not me, and I've only
been using ad&d (yes, Gary, it's copyrighted) for about 4 years to administer a
huge campaign. The magic rules are ridiculous, the hand-hand combat makes less
sense than using a quarterstaff (and a quarterstaff DOESN't help your AC , com on
now, I use a staff, and see if I am as easy to hit when I have a staff as when
I do not).
The reason that I used ad&d was that it was the only well described
system on the market when I started DM'ing.
Face it, d&d was the FIRST system generally out, and it was
certainly better than anything else (i.e. nothing). Since it couldn't
benefit from experience, it has lots of problems.
Hopefully, a revision will come out someday that UPDATES ad&d to the
current level of complexity and sophistication, and provide a system
that is a bit more playable in the long run.
As for the "organization" of the books, I couldn't
agree more.
Take a look at DragonQuest (tm-BANTAM BOOKS!!!!!!) to see something
that is better organized. DQ's rights, except for movie rights, are now
owned by Bantam, who is distributing it with their normal line to lots
of bookstores, which should increase the distribution of the game
quite a bit. For some strange reason, TSR still owns the movie rights,
whatever they amount to. Apparantly SPI had already made a deal with Bantam
before TSR called in their loan, and TSR had to stick with it, and


Oct 20, 1982, 8:48:30 PM10/20/82
Ok,so AD&D sucks shit. But what makes the others so much better ?
What are the prices of better frp systems ? are they totally different
or what (ie. are there levels ? ac,hp,etc.?) ?

I'm almost not afraid to sign my name,

Ben Walls


Oct 21, 1982, 8:12:07 PM10/21/82
For all who say AD&D sucks, I will have to agree that Gygax is far
from perfect. The following should be remembered - D&D is just a game,
and is not supposed to be realistic. If it were realistic, you would
get chopped in half and spill real blood. Quite often you want to
play a non-realistic scheme. The combat system is one that can be
understood by novices and this is good for the game.

Secondly, just about everybody plays d&d quite differently, so nobody
really pays that much attention to the tsr rules. They are a handy
thing to base something on, and something that somebody from accross
the continent can play with. If anybody in my dungeon quotes gygax, I
just say: Oh, so that's how he plays it. Interesting.

I have played with many many combat and magic systems, and find that
many people, in their desire to do better, often do worse.


Oct 21, 1982, 10:11:51 PM10/21/82

I learned my D&D before the other thing was around. I like to think
that I play the way the game was meant to be played, by using a few tables and
a copy of Greyhawk as a LOOSE guideline, arbitrarily remolding things to suit
my whims. This puts the DM in a much more omnipotent role. Combat is much
more realistic if the DM randomly makes a character slip and fall under the
swords of 15 berserkers, etc. Magic may also be made less silly. Besides,
I enjoy the look of despair on the faces of AD&Ders when I throw them a curve!

els[Eric Strobel]

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