ethernet newbie
YoYo
[First of all, my apologies for the crosspost. I'm not sure which group is
the most applicable. As soon as someone sets me straight on that, the
Newsgroups line will be trimmed.]
What's the best way to find out what's involved with setting up networks
(in this case, very small ones), via ethernet? Specifically, I'm looking
for things like what to look for in an ethernet card, what the various
terms mean, what specific pieces of hardware do what, etc. Is there a
decent book or website on the subject?
--
----YoYo------...@tezcat.com------------and stuff------
"Womens is like streetcars - the ocean is full of 'em."
-Archie Bunker
Jim Kingdon
> What's the best way to find out what's involved with setting up networks
> (in this case, very small ones), via ethernet?
Ask on net.computers.datacom? I'm sure there are books and such but
I've learned just about everything I know from osmosis.
My first advice is: go with twisted pair (10BaseT, &c, with the phone
style jacks). I have horror stories to tell about fault isolation in
thinnet (that's the round BNC connector), and AUI (DB15 connector) is
expensive/obsolete.
Assuming twisted pair, if you only have two computers you just need a
cross-over cable. If you have more than two, then you need a hub. An
8-port 10BaseT hub should be less than $100.
Whether to go with 10Mbps (10BaseT) or 100Mbps (I think they call it
100BaseT) is an interesting question. For many purposes, 10Mbps is
plenty fast, but 100Mbps is getting to be almost as cheap, so if I
were setting up a new network I suppose I'd probably go that way. For
100Mbps, the "Tulip" cards seem to be popular in the linux world but I
don't know what brand names they are sold under or details on whether
they are really still the preferred cards. For 10Mbps, go with an
NE2000 clone. These are reasonably capable, cheap, and relatively
low-hassle in terms of compatibility.
So take this post, ask questions if any, browse the catalogs and/or
stores to get some idea about what this stuff looks like physically,
and feel free to keep asking.
Bryan C. Andregg
On 8 May 1998 11:07:35 -0400, <kin...@panix2.panix.com> wrote:
> Ask on net.computers.datacom? I'm sure there are books and such but
> I've learned just about everything I know from osmosis.
I think most of us learned that way.
> Assuming twisted pair, if you only have two computers you just need a
> cross-over cable. If you have more than two, then you need a hub. An
> 8-port 10BaseT hub should be less than $100.
Throwing some real numbers in here:
3om OfficeConnect 8 port 10bT 80$.
Netgear 4 port 10bT 1 port BNC 45$.
> Whether to go with 10Mbps (10BaseT) or 100Mbps (I think they call it
> 100BaseT) is an interesting question. For many purposes, 10Mbps is
> plenty fast, but 100Mbps is getting to be almost as cheap, so if I
> were setting up a new network I suppose I'd probably go that way. For
> 100Mbps, the "Tulip" cards seem to be popular in the linux world but I
> don't know what brand names they are sold under or details on whether
> they are really still the preferred cards. For 10Mbps, go with an
> NE2000 clone. These are reasonably capable, cheap, and relatively
> low-hassle in terms of compatibility.
We buy Digital DE500's for our servers which run ~100$.
For everything else Netgear is now making tulip cards that cost 40$ and are
rock solid. I'd put them in a test server if I had the time.
Both of these cards autosense 10/100.
For a small home network I'd say that 100bT is overkill but buy the netgear
cards and then you can get a 100bT hub when you need one.
--
Bryan C. Andregg * <band...@redhat.com> * Red Hat Software
"Hey, wait a minute, you clowns are on dope!"
-- Owen Cheese in 'Shakes the Clown'
r...@greenend.org.uk
(Followups set)
br...@redhat.com (Bryan C. Andregg) writes:
> For a small home network I'd say that 100bT is overkill but buy the
> netgear cards and then you can get a 100bT hub when you need one.
As a data point, we have perhaps eight or nine active machines here
(plus a few others that generate almost no traffic ever), and 10bT is
proving perfectly adequate. The main protocols used are X, NFS,
telnet, rlogin; also occasional >1Gb tars.
Jim Kingdon
> For everything else Netgear is now making tulip cards that cost 40$ and are
> rock solid. I'd put them in a test server if I had the time.
Yeah, these are the cards that everyone in the DC Linux User's group
is talking about. At $40, there doesn't seem to be much reason to
stick with 10BaseT only cards.
> For a small home network I'd say that 100bT is overkill but buy the netgear
> cards and then you can get a 100bT hub when you need one.
Good advice. If memory services, the price difference in hubs is
currently much bigger than the price difference in the network cards.
For most purposes 10BaseT is already plenty fast.
stare master
In article <6j00cq$e...@bonkers.taronga.com>,
Peter da Silva <pe...@taronga.com> wrote:
>NICs that run at 100bt are cheap. Hubs aren't in the same ballpark yet. I
>wouldn't want to risk getting Netgear NICs and then find I can't get them
>to work with UNIX or something.
They work, as far as BSD/OS and FreeBSD is concerned.
rone
--
fuck, i'm so fucking full of angst i think i'll go read generation x so many
times i have it memorized and it just oozes out of my pores like so much of
the empty pseudophilosphy and religion i willingly embrace and espouse to my
peers and mentors. - Patrick J. Finerty <zi...@zifi.genetics.utah.edu>
William S. Duncanson
In net.computers.datacom Peter da Silva <pe...@taronga.com> wrote:
> NICs that run at 100bt are cheap. Hubs aren't in the same ballpark yet. I
> wouldn't want to risk getting Netgear NICs and then find I can't get them
> to work with UNIX or something. I've already been through that with a DEC
> 21143-based ethernet controller on a motherboard that didn't *quite* put
> everything at the same address as a "real" DE500.
And switches, 10 or 100, are still outrageous.
--
William S. Duncanson cae...@starkreality.com
"The driving force behind the NC is the belief that the companies
who brought us things like Unix, relational databases, and Windows
can make an appliance that is inexpensive and easy to use if they
choose to do that." -- Scott Adams
YoYo
Peter da Silva <pe...@taronga.com> wrote:
>I just wrote up a purchase order that included $35 for an 8-port, and $30
>for a 5-port.
This is in line with what I've been seeing in catalogs. I've actually seen
4-port hubs for about $25. I figure I'll get something like this, then
there's room for expansion.
Peter Maydell
In article <p4wk97w...@panix2.panix.com>,
Jim Kingdon <kin...@panix2.panix.com> wrote:
>> What's the best way to find out what's involved with setting up networks
>> (in this case, very small ones), via ethernet?
>My first advice is: go with twisted pair (10BaseT, &c, with the phone
>style jacks). I have horror stories to tell about fault isolation in
>thinnet (that's the round BNC connector), and AUI (DB15 connector) is
>expensive/obsolete.
Isn't anybody else going to speak up for thin ethernet? I wouldn't
recommend it for networks where the lusers tend to randomly unplug
bits of cabling :->, but for small installations where you can trust
all the users to be clueful, and especially for things like wiring up
your personal machines at home, I still think 10base2 is good. Its
advantages are
* cost: you don't need to pay for a hub; just string everything together.
Also, 10base2 transceivers are cheap (second hand) because everybody
else wants twisted pair :->
* useful with older machines: at least one of my machines (an HP9000/340)
only has a 10base2 connector.
* wiring is totally trivial...
[NB: I write from the perspective of a penniless student; if you have
more cash to throw around you might not be so worried about forking out
ten quid for a transceiver... You might have less in the way of obsolete
hardware to string together as well...]
BTW, I don't *think* AUI is obsolete yet: lots of workstations use it
[although I admit that most of the examples that spring to mind around
here are not exactly current models]. Did you mean thick ethernet
(vampire taps, big yellow cable)?
Oh yes, resources on ethernet. http://web.syr.edu/~jmwobus/lans/
is a good starting point, I think. It includes links to a lot of stuff
about network management and topology, and information on various
flavours of ethernet.
Peter Maydell
Peter da Silva
In article <BXt*8v...@news.chiark.greenend.org.uk>,
Peter Maydell <pmay...@chiark.greenend.org.uk> wrote:
>Isn't anybody else going to speak up for thin ethernet?
Not any more. It isn't any cheaper any more, and it's harder to get. In fact
if you don't have a supply of used cards a thinnet NIC costs more than a UTP
one, because the connector's more expensive. If you have it, go for it, but
if you're starting from scratch UTP is cheaper, easier to find, and more
convenient.
--
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to Wolves, Kibo, Discordianism, or The Church of the Subgenius in this document
| "Open": a warning label on a product or organization to let you know that |
| it is more proprietary and restrictive than its competitors. |
Jim Kingdon
> Isn't anybody else going to speak up for thin ethernet?
Not me. I speak from bitter, bitter experience of an office with 4
computers on thin ethernet, and a network which would work only if you
had only 3 of them hooked up at a given time (it didn't seem to matter
too strongly which 3, but the whole thing was very
unpredictable/flaky).
> * useful with older machines: at least one of my machines (an HP9000/340)
> only has a 10base2 connector.
If you have such a machine, then get one of the 10BaseT hubs with a
thinnet port and use thinnet only for the machines which need it.
> BTW, I don't *think* AUI is obsolete yet: lots of workstations use it
> [although I admit that most of the examples that spring to mind around
> here are not exactly current models]
Well, there is obsolete and there is obsolete, but as far as I know
the "not exactly current models" summary is correct.
Matt McLeod
In net.computers.other Peter Maydell <pmay...@chiark.greenend.org.uk> wrote:
: In article <p4wk97w...@panix2.panix.com>,
: Jim Kingdon <kin...@panix2.panix.com> wrote:
:>> What's the best way to find out what's involved with setting up networks
:>> (in this case, very small ones), via ethernet?
:>My first advice is: go with twisted pair (10BaseT, &c, with the phone
:>style jacks). I have horror stories to tell about fault isolation in
:>thinnet (that's the round BNC connector), and AUI (DB15 connector) is
:>expensive/obsolete.
: Isn't anybody else going to speak up for thin ethernet? I wouldn't
: recommend it for networks where the lusers tend to randomly unplug
: bits of cabling :->, but for small installations where you can trust
: all the users to be clueful, and especially for things like wiring up
: your personal machines at home, I still think 10base2 is good. Its
: advantages are
: * cost: you don't need to pay for a hub; just string everything together.
: Also, 10base2 transceivers are cheap (second hand) because everybody
: else wants twisted pair :->
: * useful with older machines: at least one of my machines (an HP9000/340)
: only has a 10base2 connector.
: * wiring is totally trivial...
I'm using 10Base2 at home (where it's just a couple of machines that I'm
the only person who gets near them), and also with APANA/Hunter (we use
it there for cheapness - last time we did any setup work there, 10Base2
was still substnatially cheaper, especially since there's about 4-8
machines on the ethernet there [varies over time]).
It has it's uses. I'll probably switch to 10BaseT when I add the next
machine at home, simply because it'll probably only have 10BaseT
available on it anyway, and the only important machines[1] here can do
it if i cable them up.
Matt
[1] There's only one, really. The Linux-running PowerMac is all that
really counts, the PCs never actually do anything.
Peter Maydell
In article <6j2b4h$7...@bonkers.taronga.com>,
>Peter Maydell <pmay...@chiark.greenend.org.uk> wrote:
>
>if you don't have a supply of used cards a thinnet NIC costs more than a UTP
>one, because the connector's more expensive. If you have it, go for it, but
>if you're starting from scratch UTP is cheaper, easier to find, and more
>convenient.
I'll grant you 'more convenient' (just) but I'd still argue about 'cheaper'.
Maybe it's just that I happen to know a useful supplier of second hand
bits... The cost of the hub is the problem -- at thirty or forty quid plus
VAT it makes thinnet cheaper for small installations.
OK, let's have some real figures here. Prices are from Simply Computers
[http://www.simply.co.uk/] which probably isn't the cheapest place, but
has the advantage that they sell everything so I only had to check one site
for prices :-> All prices are in UK pounds, including VAT.
Twisted pair: | Thin ethernet:
Hub: Simply 5 port: 38.78 | Two terminators: 2.36
Per computer: | Per computer:
3m RJ45 cable: 8.23 | 3m BNC cable: 10.58
Generic NE2000 combo ISA: 12.93 | T piece: 2.35
Total: 21.16 | Generic NE2000 combo ISA: 12.93
| Total: 25.86
So:
machines 10bT 10b2
2 81.10 54.08
3 102.26 79.94
4 123.42 105.80
5 144.58 131.66
6 165.74 157.52 [NB: actually for 10baseT you'd need a]
7 186.90 183.38 [bigger and more expensive hub here! ]
8 208.06 209.24 [An 8-port hub is \pounds 62.28... ]
By my calculations thin ethernet is cheaper for less than 8 or so machines;
and this is assuming you buy everything new. I can get NE1000s for about
ten quid inc. VAT [and they have the advantage of being jumper-configurable
rather than software-configured...]
Oh yes, and the 10base2 calculations include one more piece of cable
than you need, so subtract 10 from everything in that column. Blasted
off-by-one errors :->
Peter Maydell
[For the non-UK readers: VAT == Value Added Tax: 17.5% added to everything
you buy [well, not books, food, and other exceptions].]
r...@greenend.org.uk
pmay...@chiark.greenend.org.uk (Peter Maydell) writes:
> OK, let's have some real figures here. Prices are from Simply Computers
> [http://www.simply.co.uk/] which probably isn't the cheapest place, but
> has the advantage that they sell everything so I only had to check one site
> for prices :-> All prices are in UK pounds, including VAT.
>
> Twisted pair: | Thin ethernet:
> Hub: Simply 5 port: 38.78 | Two terminators: 2.36
> Per computer: | Per computer:
> 3m RJ45 cable: 8.23 | 3m BNC cable: 10.58
> Generic NE2000 combo ISA: 12.93 | T piece: 2.35
> Total: 21.16 | Generic NE2000 combo ISA: 12.93
> | Total: 25.86
www.scan.co.uk is at least marginally cheaper for most of these
components, in particular selling an 8-port hub for less than the
5-port above.
I'd say that the reliability hassles we had with 10b2 represented a
significant cost...
Peter Maydell
NB: I didn't really intend to start a huge argument over this...
I don't necessarily defend 10base2 as the best thing since sliced
bread; but I use it, am happy with it, and think it's OK for personal
home networks; I thought it deserved a mention.
I suppose most people might find it simpler to use
10baseT, and pay extra for things like PCI cards rather than trying
to network things with 8bit ISA cards and damp string. As I said, I'm
a penniless student and twenty or thirty quid saved is significant to
me. [Come to think of it, I'm *not* penniless, but I still think of
twenty quid as a significant expense :->]
In article <6j48ai$6...@bonkers.taronga.com>,
Peter da Silva <pe...@taronga.com> wrote:
>In article <qCk*lB...@news.chiark.greenend.org.uk>,
>Peter Maydell <pmay...@chiark.greenend.org.uk> wrote:
>>I'll grant you 'more convenient' (just) but I'd still argue about 'cheaper'.
>>Maybe it's just that I happen to know a useful supplier of second hand
>>bits... The cost of the hub is the problem -- at thirty or forty quid plus
>>VAT it makes thinnet cheaper for small installations.
>
>You're getting ripped off. What's the current exchange rate? At least 1.5:1.
>We pay $30 for a 5-port hub. If you're paying more than #20 you're paying
>too much.
Possibly the US situation is different; this is the sort of cost that
things seem to be here. Even Scan's 8-port hub is 37.60. And don't forget
VAT -- that eats into everything you buy. [Erm, I don't think the US
has this sort of sales tax, generally. Please correct me if I'm wrong...]
Oh, and ISTR that there's customs duty if you import stuff, not to
mention shipping and the hassle factor.
>Your real figures include a combo card on the UTP side. A TPO card is less
>expensive because the RJ45 is bags cheaper than the BNC and AUI.
That was the cheapest card Simply did. Scan's cheapest card is combo
as well. <shrug> [they only have two ISA cards, though; the other is a
combo 3c509 for 52.88...] Besides, my preferred cheapskating solution
is second-hand cards anyway. People aren't getting rid of twisted pair
hardware yet.
>> 2 81.10 54.08
>
>Uh-huh, for 2 machines you don't need a hub. So that's #35.09.
True. I sort of ignored this point because I thought that two machines
was a sort of trivial case; in retrospect this was a bit silly -- just
because *I* have more than two machines to connect doesn't make it the
common case.
Peter Maydell
Tom Hughes
In message <6j48ai$6...@bonkers.taronga.com>
pe...@taronga.com (Peter da Silva) wrote:
> You're getting ripped off. What's the current exchange rate? At least 1.5:1.
> We pay $30 for a 5-port hub. If you're paying more than #20 you're paying
> too much.
Don't forget that the real exchange rate is meaningless for this
sort of thing as computer companies (and many other companies as
well for that matter) use the 1 dollar is 1 pound exchange rate
regardless :-(
If you apply that to 30 dollars and then add 17.5% VAT you get
about 35 pounds which is pretty much what he quoted...
Tom
--
Tom Hughes (t...@compton.demon.co.uk)
http://www.compton.demon.co.uk/
...PROGRAM (n.) Organized sequence of counteracting errors.
Peter da Silva
In article <c19b1a4448%t...@compton.demon.co.uk>,
Tom Hughes <t...@compton.demon.co.uk> wrote:
>In message <6j48ai$6...@bonkers.taronga.com>
> pe...@taronga.com (Peter da Silva) wrote:
>> You're getting ripped off. What's the current exchange rate? At least 1.5:1.
>> We pay $30 for a 5-port hub. If you're paying more than #20 you're paying
>> too much.
>Don't forget that the real exchange rate is meaningless for this
>sort of thing as computer companies (and many other companies as
>well for that matter) use the 1 dollar is 1 pound exchange rate
>regardless :-(
Just because you're getting ripped off systematically doesn't mean
you're not getting ripped off.
On the other hand I have to wait for bloody ages to get a new Pterry book.
Michael Shields
In article <6j0m5p$5g4$1...@fire.starkreality.com>,
"William S. Duncanson" <cae...@fire.starkreality.com> wrote:
> And switches, 10 or 100, are still outrageous.
Not for what you get. I thought 3com 1000s -- 24 10BT + 100BT, fully
managed -- were a good deal at $3100, and now they have the 1100 with
two 100BT ports for $1500. The Catalyst 1900 has been repriced to be
competitive with the 3coms. Sounds good to me. Speed will be
vaguely comparable to a 100BT hub for many apps, and you get tight
control over layer 1.
--
Shields.