Neotek Elite "mini"

[tommy...@gmail.com]

Hello everyone!  I have a bit of an interesting scenario, and I haven't found any real answers by searching around so I thought I would pick your brains here.

I've been the proud owner of a 1987 Neotek Elite, 32 channel, for several years now.  As far as I've seen from everything I've read, its pretty much stock minus the P&G fader upgrade on the large faders.  No master insert, swapped chips, etc.  Through a series of events, I have moved my entire existence into another space in which I'll be running my own company doing IT work and ceasing the operation of my studio for the time being.  This means my lovely Neotek will not be utilized as the centerpiece of my studio any longer, as I've relocated most of my rig into my apartment for the time being.  I'll still be writing and recording, but...no real studio.

Without getting into the millions of summing mixer options currently available, all I really want is my Neotek's summing...in my apartment.  So I got to thinking, why couldn't I just grab 12 (minimum) of the modules, the master section, slap them into another custom built chassis (I have very talented builder friends!), wire up a new TT patchbay (I have PLENTY of spare cable and bays) to replace the stock patchbay I would be losing, build a VU meter bridge, use the existing power supply for the console, and have myself a mini Neotek while the other half goes to hang in storage till I figure out my next move.  

This is just a theoretical idea, and I'm very interested in hearing some ideas.  I started a thread on GroupDIY (a fantastic forum, if you're not familiar), but haven't received any replies.  That being said, there isn't a whole lot about Neoteks over in that neck of the woods.  

Here's the link:

http://groupdiy.com/index.php?topic=54532.0

So here's the scenarios I've been running around in my head:

1.  What I described above, a custom "chopped" down Elite, complete with the full master section and all the routing/mute logic, aux sends. I would either pull the P&G faders and build those into the desk, or use some very high quality stepped pots in their place, for ease of repeatability.  Build/buy VU meters/buffers for the 12 channels and the 2 buss.  This would give me a small 24 channel inline mixer with full EQ, routing, inserts and monitoring and the pres, giving me exactly what I want.

2.  Grab 12 channel strips and build a replacement summing buss, likely based on the CAPI boards and JH-990's.  Use something else for monitoring.  Disregard all the bussing and routing and just make it so that both the small and large faders dump into the 2 mix.  Don't bother using the pres.  Not sure what to do about mute logic. Just install switches and say to hell with the mute groups?  Add more line inputs into it with another line input section, give myself different flavors of op amps/transformer'd inputs.

3.  Some hybrid of the two, allowing me to keep the aux sends (I'd really like the aux sends for FX) and maybe a limited amount of the busses (there are 26, 24 mono and 25-26 as a second stereo buss), and build a custom summing amp with the aux send masters and returns. Maybe even direct outs for the pres from each channel, using the small faders to feed the output.  Actually, come to think of it, after channel 26 the channels have direct outs on the patch bay...I'll not likely need more than a few mics at a time as I'm going to be doing most of my tracking in my apartment and I also have a lunchbox with a couple of 512's (and soon others).  

4.  F*ck this, sell it/store it and build something or get a summing mixer with similar characteristics.  Mourn the loss of my beloved Neotek and go on about making more music with new toys I would build.  Get another one when go to the next space.

My thinking is this:  The channel strips are connected via ribbons (there is no backplane), and the master section is four modules that plug into a backplane which is floating via long pins into molex connectors (the worst design decision made on this console, if you ask me...has connectivity issues).  I can't remember exactly how the master section interconnects with the rest of the console (patch bay, power), but it seems like if most of this is in place and the power is the same power supply, this should be doable, right?  Am I crazy?

In a perfect world, when I would move to my next space (which could be a year or more), I would unplug the modules, and drop them right back into my Elite and pick up where I left off.  I don't really want to modify the strips or the master section to make it unworkable in the real thing.  

I've got a lot to consider here for sure, but my brain is a little bit overwhelmed as this all came on pretty fast and would highly appreciate any insight the Neotek community has towards my best moves. 

Thanks so very much!

[Ike Zimbel]

Hi Tommy,
To do this (build a smaller Elite) all you really need is a 2nd
motherboard for the new master section and some new ribbon cables, a
patch bay etc. That way, all you are doing to your current desk is
unplugging 12 channel strips and the 4 master modules (ie: no permanent
damage). All of the i/o for the master section solders directly to the
motherboard. I think I have another motherboard around the shop
somewhere... I also have the guts of an Essence console, including some
of the LED meters, various cable harnesses etc. I'm sure we could cobble
something together.
Best,
Ike

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[Steve Antoniazzi]

You can do whatever you want to do, however if it was me, I would not mess around with the original design, you got a full format console, and that is awesome! However, if you do not need a full format console, sell it and buy summing mixers, that's what I did and I am very happy with the sound. Also I have the benefit of a stress free studio. It's simple, consoles require maintenance. I loved my Neotek it sounded great and I did a big refurb on it. In the end, It all came down to workflow and sound. Once I realized I would not be lacking in sound, it helped me make my decision. First I purchased the summing mixer set up because I wanted to be sure it was right for me, after a little back and forth, I sold the Neotek, it was the right decision for me and Im glad I did it. If you think your going to want the full console in the future just store it right and buy some summing mixer for now. Don't go splitting up a good working Neotek console too many went down that way and its sad to see it. What you asking is possible but there is so many un for seen issues you can run into, like  grounding for one, and many others. I do not recommend altering the original design, especially of a console that is a great design. I had a series 1e and before I split it up I would of kept it.

Hope this helps.

Steve

Sent from my iPhone

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[Tommy Mokas]

Ike,

So for the scenario where I've got another motherboard, I would essentially solder all those connections out to a new patchbay?  Also, are those ribbon cables something strange, or is it something that could be had from Mouser or DigiKey? I don't mind using those ribbon cables that currently exist in there.  Its been a while since I pulled a channel out.  There are a couple, on top and bottom of the strip, right?  The desire to plug and play back to original spec on really refers to the fact that I don't want to modify the current circuity if it isn't required, I like the sound of the desk as is.  Any desire to bring other flavors in will be quelled with outboard and some other active summing mixer, which I'd likely just bring into a stereo pair to one of the channels. 

Steve, the situation that made me think about this had more to do with the fact that I have a place to store the rest of the console with a friend if needed.  I have extensively researched many scenarios involving many summing mixers (and done many drawings!) but in the end, I want more than any reasonable summing mixer has.  I want aux sends, I want monitoring, and a reasonable amount of flexibility in the analog domain.  Everytime I go to figure out what that could mean, I usually end up with a price tag and feature set that looks around the price of the Neotek.  Now granted, one of my very realistic options is to completely change the way I've been working for years and get a summing mixer and use outboard pres and just be done with it.  I have already mostly set that up with the rest of the gear that I had in the room.  Granted I haven't any time to work like this yet, so I don't have a total opinion, but I am without monitoring and without summing.  That needs to be resolved regardless, and to do that right I'm already going to spend a few grand at least.  

Rest assured, however, what I wouldn't do is hack up the Neotek.  I don't want to modify anything.  I want to make a new chassis that would essentially mimic what I currently have in a smaller form (with full sized patch bays!).  Yes, grounding may very well become an issue.  By getting another motherboard and wiring new patch bays, I'd be leaving the other chassis and wiring completely in tact, therefore preserving it.  I have zero desire to hack this thing up.  I just want to make myself a workable scenario that will preserve my already very detailed workflow, and I don't mind getting my hands dirty.  

Maybe using a new power supply would help avoid some of those issues?  Going with something more modern like an Acopian?  

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Ike Zimbel,
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Toronto
416-720-0887

"Studio House Calls". Repairs and upgrades to analog audio equipment including: AMEK, dbx, Neve, Neotek, MCI, Soundcraft and more. Authorized Warranty service for Allen & Heath, Clear-Com, Drawmer, Soundcraft, SPL and Yamaha. RF frequency co-ordination services.
www.zimbelaudio.com

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[Ike Zimbel]

Steve makes some good points, but, if this is the way you want to go, it
will work as described. The stock PS-3 is fine...if it doesn't have a
good way of detaching from your current desk (ie: spade lugs or a new
multi-pin like a Neutrik NL-8) then that's something that should be
dealt with anyway. Yes, if you make a new frame, all you need is the
motherboard. There shouldn't be any grounding issues.
Down the road, if you need to sell the desk, you could probably buy more
Elite modules and put them in one desk or the other. Finding more master
modules might be more difficult, but not impossible. Ribbon cables can
be a bit of a pain to source in small quantity, but you could probably
get what you need from Sytek.
Best,
Ike

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> Drawmer, Soundcraft, SPL and Yamaha. RF frequency co-ordination
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[Tommy Mokas]

So pending my finding a motherboard to begin this project, I've been thinking about the wiring and construction of this.  After looking at the console a little bit and thinking about the ideal size, it seems to me that if I go with 16 channels plus the master section, I'll be in the same ballpark of size/weight as an API 1608, which will fit my current space quite nicely.  I have a couple of questions about construction considerations:

1. I have noticed that the Elite II is slightly different in its physical construction, most noticeably in the small lip that separates the large faders from the channel strips.  Is there anything going on here aside from cosmetics?  Does the Elite II have anything different in the ways of materials of the casing used to make for better shielding, etc?  Any thoughts on the actual angle of the strips themselves in regards to comb filtering in the mix position (I.E. changing the current angle they exist in)?  I haven't measured this accurately yet but I'd likely put my speakers on the meterbridge, but it doesn't seem like it will be wide enough.  Thinking of building a "composers desk" that would match it in size and would probably house all the computer/controler/synth stuff.  Could also house the patchbay.

2.  What would be the potential disadvantage electronically of creating a panel with jacks on it and putting it on the back, much like the 1608?  The idea of making this thing moveable is certainly one of my motivations in this.  I don't think I want to put Elco connectors on the back of the console, however...I like the idea of being able to hard wire things if it were necessary/desirable. I have enough prewired patch bays that are already Elco so I could just take the cable looms and disconnect them from the patch bay.  Also, it would be easier to service via back panels.  The API does this in 3 panels, two for the channel banks and one for the master section.  

3.  Somewhere a while back I saw someone who had made an Elite which would flip vertical on its stand so it could fit through doorways.  I can't seem to find it anywhere, would love to implement that to make it easier to move to a location.

4.  There would only be 16 channels, but 26 busses.  Is there any reason I couldn't wire the rest of the busses to an active line mixer of some kind?  The main desire would be to allow me to buss using the matrix without patching into another flavor of something.  I'd probably return that to a stereo pair.  

5.  What's the potential of using needle based VU's (instead of the LED ones) on the channels, with some DIY meter buffers of some type (there seem to be quite a few)?  Would I have to invest in very expensive VU's to be able to swtich between PPM and VU?  I know the main stereo VU's are Sifam, which are definitely expensive.  Does anyone have a schematic for the meter buffers?  If I recall, they are all ribboned together like the channels.  I'd probably keep the main stereo LED meter in the master.  I'm not gonna lie, having all needle VU's is mostly a cosmetic desire, but I don't really want to tear apart the meterbridge on the original or hunt down more original parts than I have to.  They seem to be fairly hard to find in general.  I see Series 1, 2, and 3 stuff on ebay all the time, but never really see Elite parts.  I'd like to think that's because people keep these consoles in tact for the most part.  I could also live without meters, but would prefer to have something in place, even if it was a lesser LED VU.  

Thanks for being my sounding board on this rabbit hole I've decided to look down!

~Tommy

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    --     Ike Zimbel,
    Zimbel Audio Productions Ltd.
    Toronto

    416-720-0887 <tel:416-720-0887>

    "Studio House Calls". Repairs and upgrades to analog audio
    equipment including: AMEK, dbx, Neve, Neotek, MCI, Soundcraft and
    more. Authorized Warranty service for Allen & Heath, Clear-Com,
    Drawmer, Soundcraft, SPL and Yamaha. RF frequency co-ordination
    services.

    www.zimbelaudio.com <http://www.zimbelaudio.com>

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Toronto
416-720-0887

"Studio House Calls". Repairs and upgrades to analog audio equipment including: AMEK, dbx, Neve, Neotek, MCI, Soundcraft and more. Authorized Warranty service for Allen & Heath, Clear-Com, Drawmer, Soundcraft, SPL and Yamaha. RF frequency co-ordination services.
www.zimbelaudio.com

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[Park Peters]

Hello All,

I still have some Elite modules that I can sell. If you decide to keep your console complete, I have at least 12 I would gladly let go of. I'd be open to offers as well.

Looking forward,

Park Peters

Audio Park Recording

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[Eddie Rivas]

How much for the modules Park?  Can you send pics of the modules?  My board doesn’t have direct outs so I just wonder if they are all compatible..?

Eddie