Well I tried, big tubes on ebay this am

[Trumpeter]

Saw these pop up on ebay. I guess they are rodan CD27? The envelope looks different than pics of CD27 I have seen. Im suprised they went for so much considering they may be doa, but maybe someone can see something I can't?

http://www.ebay.com/itm/Vintage-Pair-of-large-Nixie-tubes-3-034-diameter-/263011507278?

[jb-electronics]

Hey guys, those are B-7011. Congrats! Is the lucky bidder amongst us? I
would be very happe to make a private offer for one of those. Jens

[gregebert]

One of the photos appears to show cracked glass at the edge, which almost certainly would make the tube leak. Still, it's a great museum piece.

[Robert L]

Yup... I'm here... And will report when they arrive and I have a chance to test them. I don't usually gamble, but these are unlike any I'd seen and seemed worth the risk. Fingers crossed for at least one working tube.

Stand by for a report later this week...

Anticipa....

     ....tion!

B

[Trumpeter]

I hope they are fully functional! I was thinking of making them into big thermometer display.

[Paul Andrews]

If either of those work, you got a bargain. I thought it was worth a try too - you just beat me! I need to work on my eBay technique.

[blkadder]

I utilize an eBay snipe service.  Check out Gixen.com.  It is amazing how close this service posts your bid compared to the seconds left in the auction.

Ron

...Semper Fidelis...

[gregebert]

I've seen prices spike in the last few seconds; I was bidding on a set of 4 NIMO tubes a few years ago and the final price jumped 10X to over $1500 US in less than a minute. You really have to know when to call it quits, or enjoy your addiction.

[Nicholas Stock]

To be honest, I'm not a fan of sniping, but each to their own....

On Mon, Jun 5, 2017 at 12:56 PM, gregebert <greg...@hotmail.com> wrote:

I've seen prices spike in the last few seconds; I was bidding on a set of 4 NIMO tubes a few years ago and the final price jumped 10X to over $1500 US in less than a minute. You really have to know when to call it quits, or enjoy your addiction.

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[Paul Andrews]

Well anyway, I'm excited to see if they work. I hope they do, I have bought many untested tubes and so far had only one dud.

Now I get to spend that money on other items in my long buy list, which seems to grow faster than the money comes in!

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[SWISSNIXIE - Jonathan F.]

Nice! Hope at least one is working.



The problem with auction's is, if you bid early.. people have time to think, and maybe decide to over bid you. On some item's i really wanted i made my bid in the last 5s.
About spiking prices, this is usually when someone bids high early, like the price is 1$, he bids 300.-, then it will remain 1$ until someone tries to bid, and does automatically increase.

Personally i think buying nixies is a matter of time, i never would buy a tube for >400$. I just wait - for example, i got 3 working (but a little dark) CD27 for only 100€ !
Asking sellers about more tubes is always a good idea...

[Tomasz Kowalczyk]

That's very true, bidding early rises the price and makes other people think. Most often they will end up willing to spend more money than they would bid in the last seconds of the auction. That's why I also never bid at all until last minute. Also, the "sniping" helps hiding how much you're willing to pay. 

Few months ago I was bidding some lab equipment with 5x B-5445 (one broken, 4 in very good condition, + sockets and 7441s with gold legs), which was worth for me up to 200zł (50zł/tube)*. I didn't bid until last seconds and that's why my "opponent" didn't think I'll rise the base price of 40zł to absurdal amounts of money, so I ended up paying about... 60zł with postage. (4zł ~= 1$)

*due to rarity and small useability of the tubes, I couldn't find reasonable prices to compare to

By the way - the best deals are out of popular auction sites. I've purchased 20x LC-631 (used) and 5x Z566M (used) 6zł each only due to fact that seller didn't post his offer on any bigger site. I've found the guy by just googling LC-631 at random. Due to unpopularity of the site I was first to contact him - and I've messaged him 8 days after he posted his offer!

[Robert L]

OK... Tubes just arrived in good condition from USPS, mixed results testing them... But both tubes have multiple working digits.

Crack in the glass on tube 10 does not go all the way through... Not too surprising as the glass is about 3 mm thick! the better part of 2 mm glass intact.

Tube 9: working digits: 1, 2, 7, 8, 9, 0

Tube 10: working digits: 1, 2, 3, 4, 7, 8, 9, 0

Not bad! Would have loved one tube with a complete set of digits, but no complaint!

Suggestions on applications with this limited set of digits? A clock displaying 12:37 all day long and right twice a day? A restricted output random number generator? Ideas???

B

[Paul Andrews]

Very nice. I assume you have tried pumping more current through the non-working digits? Like do you get any glow on them at all, or just nothing? Any obvious signs that the non-functioning digits are disconnected?

I was contemplating making a clock that deliberately malfunctions with some flaky 6844A tubes I have. Maybe a clock with a small backup tube that displays the missing digits?

BTW, I was contemplating asking the seller if he knew what kind of device they were in. Always curious about these big tubes. 

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<7.jpg>

<8.jpg>

[Robert L]

Some of the missing digits have very small hot spots near the base... Power supply in current limit. Not going to risk burning internal connections!

One or two show as open with no measurable current flow... Testing at 300 VDC, 12K series and backup of a current limit on the HV supply on my bench. These numbers per the 7011 preliminary specs. I'm guessing these are prototypes of the 7011... and thinking the tape was applied by a tech in the Burroughs lab. The truth? No idea!

Will probably make a two digit random number generator, but I do like your idea of a 2-digit clock with a small nixie display echoing the large display so missing digits can be read off the small tubes. Obviously only drive teh big tubes on working digits.

Open to other suggestions!

B

[gregebert]

Well, you could make a really goofy single-digit clock with tube #10. Since digits 5 & 6 are out, you could have a mechanism to turn the tube upside down.

A mechanical version of what the Soviets did with some of their tubes, like the IN-1.

[Nicholas Stock]

Now that's some thinking 'out of the box'....:-)...I like it!

Sent from my iPhone

On Jun 7, 2017, at 12:24, gregebert <greg...@hotmail.com> wrote:

Well, you could make a really goofy single-digit clock with tube #10. Since digits 5 & 6 are out, you could have a mechanism to turn the tube upside down.

A mechanical version of what the Soviets did with some of their tubes, like the IN-1.

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[Paul Andrews]

Brilliant!

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[gregebert]

Doesn't sound like cathode-poisoning.  Are you able to observe the straps welded to the individual pins ? Making a tube this size in a production environment is not trivial, so it's possible the weld broke, got dirty, etc.

You mentioned going up to 300V; that's plenty enough because the '1' is usually at the very bottom of the stack and works on both tubes. Theoretically, that should be the most difficult to illuminate as it's furthest from the anode mesh. '3' is on the top for my 5092 & 6091, and probably for your tubes. Most likely it's an open circuit.

Do you have a capacitance meter ? You could try measuring capacitance between various cathodes to see if the dead digits have unusually low capacitance. That would bolster the broken connection theory. Come to think of it, I dont remember if I've ever tried measuring capacitance on my tubes so I'm not sure what kind of values to expect. Probably in the low pF range.

[Robert L]

Started at 300 VDC for initial testing... The high voltage to help with poisoned elements or getting ignition if low gas pressure.

Now running 200 V with 12k series resistor and the tube self limits at 5.3 mA on the "8" digit.

The small glowing spot at the base for digit "6" with ~2 mA tube current and the supply running at the programmed 200 V across the tube strongly suggests an open at the base between the pin and digit structure. Will peak in with a stereo microscope later tonight.

OK... How about driving with a fast edge and using a counter or fast scope to make a Time Domain Reflectometer measurement for the length of the wire?

B

[Robert L]

"Will peak in with a stereo microscope later tonight."

No need for the scope - can see the tip of the pin glowing down at the base. A very small and somewhat out of position decimal point?

B

[Jeff Walton]

Run them for awhile.  Sometimes with old tubes it takes awhile to fire all cathodes and clear surface deposits.  Use higher voltage to get them to fire and then back down to just run for awhile.  I had some old IN-8-2 with fine grids that took about 2 days before they would light properly and now they are fine.  1967 tubes... 

Jeff 

-------- Original message --------
From: Robert L <boble...@gmail.com>
Date: 6/7/17 1:48 PM (GMT-06:00)
To: neonixie-l <neoni...@googlegroups.com>
Subject: [neonixie-l] Re: Well I tried, big tubes on ebay this am

OK... Tubes just arrived in good condition from USPS, mixed results testing them... But both tubes have multiple working digits.

Crack in the glass on tube 10 does not go all the way through... Not too surprising as the glass is about 3 mm thick! the better part of 2 mm glass intact.

Tube 9: working digits: 1, 2, 7, 8, 9, 0

Tube 10: working digits: 1, 2, 3, 4, 7, 8, 9, 0

Not bad! Would have loved one tube with a complete set of digits, but no complaint!

Suggestions on applications with this limited set of digits? A clock displaying 12:37 all day long and right twice a day? A restricted output random number generator? Ideas???

B

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[Nicholas Stock]

I've noted the same with some old NL840/841 variants....sometimes I've found holding a reluctant tube next to a plasma globe for a few seconds has helped...don't ask me why...;-)

On Wed, Jun 7, 2017 at 3:39 PM, Jeff Walton <jwalt...@gmail.com> wrote:

Run them for awhile.  Sometimes with old tubes it takes awhile to fire all cathodes and clear surface deposits.  Use higher voltage to get them to fire and then back down to just run for awhile.  I had some old IN-8-2 with fine grids that took about 2 days before they would light properly and now they are fine.  1967 tubes... 

Jeff 

-------- Original message --------
From: Robert L <boble...@gmail.com>
Date: 6/7/17 1:48 PM (GMT-06:00)
To: neonixie-l <neoni...@googlegroups.com>
Subject: [neonixie-l] Re: Well I tried, big tubes on ebay this am

OK... Tubes just arrived in good condition from USPS, mixed results testing them... But both tubes have multiple working digits.

Crack in the glass on tube 10 does not go all the way through... Not too surprising as the glass is about 3 mm thick! the better part of 2 mm glass intact.

Tube 9: working digits: 1, 2, 7, 8, 9, 0

Tube 10: working digits: 1, 2, 3, 4, 7, 8, 9, 0

Not bad! Would have loved one tube with a complete set of digits, but no complaint!

Suggestions on applications with this limited set of digits? A clock displaying 12:37 all day long and right twice a day? A restricted output random number generator? Ideas???

B

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[Robert L]

Funny you should mention a plasma globe... I have one arriving tomorrow. Was thinking of one as a quick and dirty check for gas inside theenvelope.

I'll try running one or more of the unresponsive segments for awhile... Not optimistic as it looks like glow just near the tube base. Not a hint of any glow on the element proper. 240 V measured across the tube at 10 mA, but absolutely no glow on the element. Have you seen something like this recover?

I'm used to seeing at least a partial element glow with the glowing area maybe moving around a bit... Not used to completely dark elements.

Anyway, to be continued!

B

[chuck richards]

Sometimes reversing the polarity can shake things up
enough to make some dark digits start lighting up.

Set it up briefly so that one of the dark digits is the anode (+) side
and the normal anode is the cathode (-) side.

Of course, still be using the proper series resistance so that if or
when
it does light up it does not self destruct. Try that and let us know
what happens.

Chuck

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[Nicholas Stock]

That exactly what I use mine for....very quick test to see if it's lost gas...

Sent from my iPhone

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[Paul Andrews]

I made a portable ion probe out of one of those electric fly swatters. See this topic.

Re. elements not lighting up - only the lead up to the element on my flaky 6844A tubes will glow unless I pump it with more current and then the glow reluctantly moves up to the element itself.

[Robert L]

Using a couple of Keithley Source Measure Units in series as a high voltage supply. (I have a nice bench at work!) These let me go up to 420 volts at 100 mA with the pair in series.

I took normal polarity up to about 330 volts measured across the tube at 15 mA this afternoon... no series resistor as I'm programming the SMU to set the current limit. Zero glow on the element, intense and quite isolated glow down near the tube base. I don't want to run at these levels for more than a few seconds at a time.

I'll try reverse polarity tomorrow... 

Many thanks to all of you for the ideas!

Bob

[Robert L]

I mentioned TDR earlier in the thread and actually was not completely joking... Will probably give it a try over the weekend...

I can send a pulse with a sharp edge into the electrode and see how long it takes for a reflection to come back. Fast return = short wire attached, longer wait for return = longer wire attached. Have used this technique on circuits and resolved a few mm of trace length.

Works pretty well with a good counter.

B

[Tomasz Kowalczyk]

I've got a Z567M, which for some reason desoldered internally. There connection is broken at the pins - a small piece of wire connects digits to pins under the mica shield. When I try to make it glow, it sometimes glows for a short moment - only the connected pin, though. 

Does your tube have a heater/giver* under mica shield? It is doing its job as a ignition blocker. My tube starts glowing at the pins when I connect high voltage to one end of the heater/giver*, as the distance between pins and high voltage is lower.

*I've seen some teories about this thing under mica shield, but no solid info. 

[JohnK]

Glass cracks tend to travel. I wonder if the ' glue ' they use for car windscreen cracks might help?

 

John K

Australia

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[Robert L]

Will check into the heater/giver idea... Need to better understand this! 

Have also thought about a glass crack sealer, but the crack is less a crack and more a flaked off piece of glass. Probably happened decades ago with a glancing blow. I think better to leave the tubes in as-found condition! 

Suspect a cap meter will be an easy first check for connection to the element wire... will try this simpler test before wandering down the TDR path!

[Robert L]

Finally a few free minutes at the end of the day... Cap meter results compelling for open digits.

All pins on both tubes measured with respect to the anode... 

> Pins that are not connected per the Burroughs data sheet and dark digits all measure ~3 pF or less with one N/C pin somewhat higher reading 3.7 pF.

> Glowing digits measure 6 pF or more with none higher than 7.5 pF.

I'm now accepting that the dark digits are disconnected from their pins.

All measurements in pF:

Pin	Function	Tube 9	Tube 10
1	NC	3.1	3.7
2	A	n/a	n/a
3	K0	7.5	6.8
4	K9	6.8	6.4
5	K8	7.2	7.2
6	K7	6	5.9
7	K6	2.8	2.7
8	NC	2.6	2.5
9	K5	2.4	3
10	K4	2.8	6.4
11	K3	3.2	7.3
12	K2	6.9	7
13	K17	6.9	6.1
14	NC	2.3	2.6

I remain happy to have these tubes and am thinking about how to best display them...

Onward!

B

[Robert L]

OK... I think I know what I want to do. A clock! Go figure...  

 

Probably just hours and minutes with the 7011 tubes as hours and smaller tubes such as Z5600M or B-6091 for minutes.

As Paul A. suggests above, with hours on the 7011 tubes, only 05:xx and 06:xx are missing digits. I'd include a smaller IN-17 or such tucked in to the side of the one 7011 to fill in the missing 5 and 6 digits. The IN-17 would only light when the big tube is missing a necessary 5 or 6. Have to make a physical model of this and see how it would look... A friend points out that too many tube types just makes a visual mess. Too much size variation also not so good.

With the available digits, hours will display as:       1, 2, 3, 4, 5, 6, 7, 8, 9, 10, 11, 12

12 :  37    All good digits.

      5:  40    Leading zero suppression, 5 missing and filled in by the IN-17.

 

Might be pretty nice! Would likely use plex for the clock housing so that the bodies of the 7011 tubes are visible complete with masking tape and grease pencil(?)... Did I mention that there's a small bit of grease pencil on the inside front of one tube. These have to be prototypes.

 

I've attached a file showing an IN-17 tucked in beside a 7011. IN-17 may be too small. So, onward with sketches... this post just suggests my general direction and I expect the idea to evolve for a fair while before any material is cut.

Many thanks everyone for your ideas on how to recover the missing digits!

Best regards,

Bob

 

[Paul Andrews]

Does the IN-17 have an upside down 2 as a 5? Could you lay your hands on a B5991 instead?

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<Buddy tube.JPG>

[Robert L]

I'll look into other tubes... Will also want a buddy tube for the 10 hours place. Was forgetting about cathode poisoning prevention and would want to cycle all digits for this.

As I said, this will evolve for some while before any material is cut!

B

[MichaelS]

IN-17's have a normal 5.  They're neat little tubes.  ...nothing wrong with the Western counterparts (4997/4998) either.  :)

BTW - Was glad to hear that the 7011-like tubes worked.  They're either very early tubes and/or handmade prototypes.  I wouldn't expect them to be long life tubes.  It's great to see them running though!

[Robert L]

Michael - Thanks for the comments! I do like the IN-17, it's just too small if they will be used for both the buddy tube and seconds.

I have some 6091 which would be a nice choice for the seconds...

As far as long life, the 7011 tubes will not be run often and certainly not when there's no one there to appreciate them! Direct drive as well - no multiplexing.

Best regards,

Bob

[Trumpeter]

Just a note on the in17, the glass is SUPER thin. It takes hardly a bump to break them.

[MichaelS]

Really?  I've never had a problem breaking any IN17's, even after knocking them over.  That's mounted with their plastic spacers though.

[Trumpeter]

Yes. Twice now I have had to replace an in17 in my pv electronics "frank 3" clock after one of my kids tipped it over. Just the weight of it was enough to smash the face. The 4 in12 were fine.

[Nicholas Stock]

That sucks. I have several clocks with the IN17's and they seem like hardy little tubes....maybe you got a few bad ones?

So a thread hijack here...what's the worst tube you've used with regards to longevity? I've had bad luck with IN16's and IN2's (had to change multiple times in several clocks...)...I've heard the IN1's can be a pain, but I've yet to finish a clock with those yet...

Pharma Nick

On Tue, Jun 13, 2017 at 11:46 PM, Trumpeter <dmatr...@gmail.com> wrote:

Yes. Twice now I have had to replace an in17 in my pv electronics "frank 3" clock after one of my kids tipped it over. Just the weight of it was enough to smash the face.  The 4 in12 were fine.

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[Tomasz Kowalczyk]

LC-531. I haven't used them in a clock yet, but I've salvaged 3 PFL type frequency meters, which gave me 21 tubes. 7 of them were dead from the start, 2 barely lit and start glowing properly only with supply voltage over 200V, next 5 have major poisoning, which I mostly healed... for now.  So out of 21 tubes taken from lab equipment, which was always kept in reasonable temperatures and not used very frequently, only 7 were in at least good condition. The 1300h tube life from datasheet seems to be no lie, which is a bit strange - these tubes seem to contain mercury.

At the same time, I've salvaged tubes from equipment in far worse condition (some stuff probably survived a flood) and good to bad tubes ratio was always way higher.

W dniu środa, 14 czerwca 2017 23:41:06 UTC+2 użytkownik Pramanicin napisał:

That sucks. I have several clocks with the IN17's and they seem like hardy little tubes....maybe you got a few bad ones?

So a thread hijack here...what's the worst tube you've used with regards to longevity? I've had bad luck with IN16's and IN2's (had to change multiple times in several clocks...)...I've heard the IN1's can be a pain, but I've yet to finish a clock with those yet...

Pharma Nick

On Tue, Jun 13, 2017 at 11:46 PM, Trumpeter <dmatr...@gmail.com> wrote:

Yes. Twice now I have had to replace an in17 in my pv electronics "frank 3" clock after one of my kids tipped it over. Just the weight of it was enough to smash the face.  The 4 in12 were fine.

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[Alic]

The Chinese nixies QS-30 and SZ-8 also have short lifetimes of respectively 1000 and 500 hours per datasheet. In my experience they don't last very long indeed compared to tubes with mercury. Especially the one in the 10s of hours position in my clocks.
It's a pity because they have a really beautiful orange glow.

[Nicholas Stock]

How about B5031's?

http://www.ebay.com/itm/Fifteen-15-Burroughs-Nixie-Tubes-Eleven-8037-B-5031-and-Four-5031-/272719556596?&_trksid=p2056016.l4276

Could be a bargain for someone...

On Thu, Jun 15, 2017 at 3:44 AM, Alic <al...@gmx.net> wrote:

The Chinese nixies QS-30 and SZ-8 also have short lifetimes of respectively 1000 and 500 hours per datasheet. In my experience they don't last very long indeed compared to tubes with mercury. Especially the one in the 10s of hours position in my clocks.
It's a pity because they have a really beautiful orange glow.

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[gregebert]

Be careful with 5031's.....I've bought a few in the past from different sources, and half of them had defects, most likely gas leaks.

They did not respond to depoisoning attempts at high current. Oh, they got really warm. Someday I hope to melt one. Did that before with a 0A2 and it was hilarious as it shrivelled.

I believe the 5031 is Burrough's 1st-generation nixie.

I've bough many 5092's in various condition from different sources. Have never found a bad one, and have never had one fail on me.

[MichaelS]

Yeah, I've had similar experience with these tubes.  'think they were sold as standard life tubes in the brochures.  The rounded face is a warning...

5092's are fine tubes though.

[Nicholas Stock]

Good to know. I will refrain from building any fancy clocks with them then!

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