220V / 50Hz Mains Power

[gregebert]

For those who live with 220V mains, I'm curious if anyone has used 110VAC-to-GND for their projects. I'm sure it violates electrical codes, and there are plenty of reasons why doing that is unsafe, but I wouldn't be surprised if it's been tried by folks here.

GFCI (ground fault circuit interruptors) are commonly used here in the US for some outlets inside homes, usually in areas like kitchens or bathrooms where water is running, and also outdoors. So, exploiting the GND prong would cause a GFCI to trip; it's also redundant because all outlets have a neutral conductor anyways, so using the GND accomplishes nothing. In other words, we can't get 60VAC using GND (yeah, if we *did*, then I probably would have used it).

[Rik Declercq]

GFCI is mandatory in Belgium on +all+ outlets, they're placed in the switchboard, right after the main manual switch, before all other fuses. There's even 2, actually, one that triggers @ 0.03A (for surviving bathroom and washing machines.... 'wet' accidents) and one @ 0.3 A for everything else. Those are placed in series, so often trigger both if you do something very stupid. 

On Fri, Mar 21, 2025 at 8:20 AM gregebert <greg...@hotmail.com> wrote:

For those who live with 220V mains, I'm curious if anyone has used 110VAC-to-GND for their projects. I'm sure it violates electrical codes, and there are plenty of reasons why doing that is unsafe, but I wouldn't be surprised if it's been tried by folks here.

GFCI (ground fault circuit interruptors) are commonly used here in the US for some outlets inside homes, usually in areas like kitchens or bathrooms where water is running, and also outdoors. So, exploiting the GND prong would cause a GFCI to trip; it's also redundant because all outlets have a neutral conductor anyways, so using the GND accomplishes nothing. In other words, we can't get 60VAC using GND (yeah, if we *did*, then I probably would have used it).

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[Adrian Godwin]

GFCI is mandatory on new installations in the UK, typically 20mA. However there are a lot of older installations without them.

However note that the 230V is not served centre-tapped about earth like US range power : We have a 230V 'live' terminal and neutral is earthed at the substation so may be a few volts above earth at the house due to voltage drops in distribution.  So it's nominally 230V above earth too, there is no possibility of getting 110V without a transformer.

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[gregebert]

Wow! I had no idea the full 220V was present in the UK; that's a very dangerous voltage to touch. In the US, neutral is connected to GND at the point-of-entry to the building and there is also a grounding rod though the electrical code only requires a maximum of 25 ohms to Earth (it varies due to soil condition), and definitely wont suffice as a redundant neutral.

[David Pye]

Not just the UK - the whole EU is like that!

David 

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[Adrian Godwin]

We do have a variation for professional outdoor equipment - a building site will have so-called 'site transformers' ranging from 500W portable units to multi-output multi-kW units that take the 240V in and produce 110V with  a centre-tapped earth, much like your 220V system. This gives 110V for site tools in which there's no more than 55VAC from earth. They're not really used outside the building trade, though.

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[Richard Scales]

UK mains can give quite a jolt when you touch it inadvertently!

 - Richard

[Alex]

Many properties (larger homes and any business premises and abive in the UK) are supplied with three phase electricity, which is 230v phase to neutral and 415v phase to phase. 120 Degree phase offset between the phases. Very potent (and useful!)

Our normal supply for residential is 230v phase to neutral, mostly as already mentioned  with N&PE joined at the cable entry to the property but some (e.g. pole fed) only have L and N provided and earth is via an earth rod (TT installation). RCD protection is mandatory in these circumstances (and essentially mandatory anyway now as increasingly regulations require more circuits to be protected). 30mA RCD protection for most circuits and 100mA and / or time delay if upstream for discrimination.

The rest of Europe is 220v, so a little lower than the UK, but we harmonised by being +6% and -10% tolerance while the rest of the EU is +/- 10%.

The US way with 220v centre tapped is quite noval, but 3 phase is great for workshops as it gives great torque in motors, though modern VFD controllers bridge the gap mostly.

On Friday, 21 March 2025 at 23:51:21 UTC David Pye wrote:

Not just the UK - the whole EU is like that!

David 

[newxito]

In Switzerland, there are many things that normally run on 3-phase power in a private household: oven, steamer, induction cooker, heat pump, washing machine, dryer, wall box, and of course, the ventilation system for the inevitable nuclear shelter :-)

[Adam Piórko]

Since 2004, the mains voltage in Poland has been increased from 220V to 230V, and as far as I know, it's the same across the entire EU. In Europe, the frequency is 50Hz, while in the US it's 60Hz.

In my apartment, which is in a small block of flats in Poland, I have a three-phase installation - a legacy from the electric heating system from the early 2000s.

[gregebert]

In the early 1980's I bought several pieces of surplus computer equipment, which required 3-phase power. If you thought nixies were cool, you ain't seen nothin. The absolute COOLEST gizmo from that era is a vacuum-column tape drive. I had 2 of them and was determined to get them interfaced to my S100 computer. Long-story short, I designed and built my own 10kW 3-phase inverter and got the drives running. Then I got married, moved, and the equipment had to go. But I still have memorable items from them.

I really wish the US had 3-phase residential service. For about 5 years, I lived  in a condominium that had 2 of 3 phases (208 line-to-line, 120 line-to-neutral) and using 2 large center-tapped isolation transformers I was able to create 3-phase for the equipment and mothball the inverter.

[Mac Doktor]

On Mar 22, 2025, at 11:31 AM, Alex <ajlg...@gmail.com> wrote:

The US way with 220v centre tapped is quite noval

It's 244V RMS here at the moment. The drier gets hotter.

I have a large collection of antique Christmas lights and back then the voltage was 110V so a variac is essential when powering them up.

Terry Bowman, KA4HJH
"The Mac Doctor"

https://www.astarcloseup.com

"Would you like to see the relevant data?"—343 Guilty Spark, Halo 2

[Yohan Park]

UK is 240V while Europe mainland is 230V

[Instrument Resources of America]

 I meant to point out earlier, that as stated below 230V L to N does 'NOT' equate to 415V L to L. Whereas 240V L to N does indeed equate to 415V L to L. Thanks for the reminder.   

Irv.

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[Paolo Cravero]

On Sun, Mar 23, 2025 at 12:34 AM gregebert <greg...@hotmail.com> wrote:

 

While we are at it, I'd like to share an Italian peculiarity of the electric power service for residential users.

Long-story short, I designed and built my own 10kW 3-phase inverter and got the drives running. Then I got married, moved, and the equipment had to go. But I still have memorable items from them.

Our standard service comes with a 3.0 kW cap with 10% tolerance: you can drain continously 3.3 kW total from all your AC outlets. You can peak at 4 kW for a brief amount of time, then the breaker (in the basement) opens and you're left looking for a candle or a torch.

Consider that historically Italians have not relied on electricity for heating or cooking, but rather used gas (pipe to home or cylinder or tank) for cooking, heating, warm water. Heating uses/used diesel (not anymore) or wood too, depending on the areas. So for many decades 3 kW was enough to hold a washing machine, electric water heater, lights and TV. With the increasing adoption of other electric appliances, or more efficient but more peak power hungry, 3.3 kW is beginning to be too tight. You can pay for the upgrade up to 6 kW, but that pays off if you drop gas entirely. My yearly consumption is about 1800 kWh.

So now you understand notices in rented Italian B&B/flats/homes about paying attention to the amount of devices in use.

Paolo

[gregebert]

> My yearly consumption is about 1800 kWh.

That's very admirable, Paolo . According to the cheap volt/amp/watthour meter I have on my nixie-clock tower, I use about 150kWh per year just for my clocks, and many of them are off most of the time with the rest using PIR sensors.

[Peter Hall]

Know how it feels, Aussie- 240v 50hz...Flash💥Thump⚡and Thankyou for Modern Fuses👍

From🚨Peter Hall😁 insidiousnixies🦘Utube

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[Robert G. Schaffrath]

"Our standard service comes with a 3.0 kW cap with 10% tolerance: you can drain continuously 3.3 kW total from all your AC outlets. You can peak at 4 kW for a brief amount of time, then the breaker (in the basement) opens and you're left looking for a candle or a torch."

My home has 48kW service (200A @ 240V) which was pretty high back in 1977 when it was upgraded to that level. We do not really need that level now as the electric range is a modern high efficiency unit as is the refrigerator and chest freezer in the garage and could get by with half that service. Now it is not uncommon to see some new "McMansion" homes in my area hitting 72kW (300A @ 240V) with their multiple central A/C compressors and myriad collection of electrical appliances. We only have single phase in my residential area though three-phase is very common for businesses. The building I worked in at my previous job had three-phase Delta when we moved in but was converted to Wye when a large business moved into the building and needed that configuration. So they decided to convert the entire building over. Didn't affect my office as we only used three phase for the rooftop heat/cooling unit and that was taken care of by the electricians.