Cool clock with 6 x Z568M + 6 spare tubes...

[Nick]

http://www.benl.ebay.be/itm/301302736983 - comes with 6 spare tubes for 12 x Z568M in total.

Not my auction - nice clock with some neat features - I like the little LCD with extra data.

A bit "solid" for my personal tastes and the photos don't do it justice - the lighting washes out the digits so the tubes look a bit bland, which is unfortunate as they are amongst my favourites...

Nick

[kay486]

now thats something that doesent pop up everyday!

[gregebert]

I'm sure some nixie zealots might disagree with me here, but in my opinion the cost vs. size math doesn't justify spending that much on a 50mm tube. The IN-18 tubes are an impressive 40mm, for about 1/10 the cost.

Despite a few temptations, I have stayed away from digits larger than 20mm, partly for cost reasons, but also because the large digits seem skinny & dim compared to smaller tubes. It appears that cathodes are not made 'fatter' for larger tubes, probably because that would impair visibility of other digits and they would also reflect more.

I see 'Fake Gigantic Nixies'  in my future.....

[kay486]

well even ZM1042 / Z5660M look so much better than IN-18, there is a huge difference in quality/appearance when it comes to the russina tubes.

[Wayne de Geere III]

Thanks for posting that. If nobody else is going to move on this, I think I want to. I don’t have any Z568/Z5680 clocks from anybody besides Jeff Thomas / Michael Barile. It will be such a nice addition to the collection.

wayneco

On Sep 4, 2014, at 5:58 AM, Nick <ni...@desmith.net> wrote:

http://www.benl.ebay.be/itm/301302736983 - comes with 6 spare tubes for 12 x Z568M in total.

Not my auction - nice clock (a bit "solid" for my personal tastes( with some neat features - I like the little LCD with extra data.

Nick

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[MichaelB]

Maybe I'm wrong, but aren't his electronics muxed?

On Thursday, September 4, 2014 5:58:57 AM UTC-7, Nick wrote:

http://www.benl.ebay.be/itm/301302736983 - comes with 6 spare tubes for 12 x Z568M in total.

[Nicholas Stock]

Yep, it's a multiplex design...

http://www.nixieclocks.de/english/nixieclockkit/pcbversion108/index.php

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[Dalibor Farný]

Hi,

Fatter digits for big tubes would mean (much) higher current, which is proportional to digit surface. This mean higher power consumption and also earlier end of the tube because of shorts caused by higher amount of sputtered metal from cathodes deposited on insulator rings..
but it is worth of experiment, one day..

sent from phone
----------------------------
Dalibor Farny
http://www.daliborfarny.com

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[MichaelB]

Yep, thought so, sir Nick.  Seems a shame to drive these beauties any any other way than direct drive.

[GastonP]

It is funny to verify yet again that that one man's trash is another's treasure...

I was just going to post that the LCD robbed much if not all of this clock's "charm". :)

Gastón

On Thursday, September 4, 2014 9:58:57 AM UTC-3, Nick wrote:

<snip>

 I like the little LCD with extra data.

</snip>

Nick

[gregebert]

Yep, thought so, sir Nick.  Seems a shame to drive these beauties any any other way than direct drive. 

Judging by the photos on Ebay, which show rather dim digits, I would guess the tubes are multiplexed at their rated-current, which reduces brightness vs direct-drive.

I definitely would not boost the current to compensate for this; much safer to make a new clock with direct-drive.

Seems silly to me to save a few dollars by multiplexing when the tubes are so costly.

3500 euros.....definitely not in my budget even if I were to sell the other 6 tubes and attempt to justify it as a wedding-anniversary gift

[MichaelB]

"Seems silly to me to save a few dollars by multiplexing when the tubes are so costly." My thoughts exactly!

[Wayne de Geere III]

I was thinking of this as a buy for the tube value alone. Then give those tubes to Michael Barile who would make me a fantastic Barile/Thomas Nixisat derived clock or clocks with those tubes.

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[David Forbes]

On 9/4/14 12:22 PM, gregebert wrote:
> I'm sure some nixie zealots might disagree with me here, but in my opinion

> the cost vs. size math doesn't justify spending* that* much on a 50mm tube.

> The IN-18 tubes are an impressive 40mm, for about 1/10 the cost.
>
> Despite a few temptations, I have stayed away from digits larger than 20mm,
> partly for cost reasons, but also because the large digits seem skinny &
> dim compared to smaller tubes. It appears that cathodes are not made
> 'fatter' for larger tubes, probably because that would impair visibility of
> other digits and they would also reflect more.
>
> I see 'Fake Gigantic Nixies' in my future.....
>

I agree. I'm quite happy with my ZM1040 clock. It is a nice size for a
standard living room. Plus, the tubes cost only $9 each back when I
built it in 2002.

I remember people on the yahoo neonixie list giving me a hard time (for
profiteering!?!) for reselling those tubes for $15 each after importing
them from Switzerland. Tee hee!


--
David Forbes, Tucson AZ

[Niek]

I never read any evidence in datasheets or elsewhere that tells me multiplexed tubes last shorter than directly driven tubes, despite the somewhat higher current required for similar brightness. Is this really the case? What do you base this on? In LED's, this generally evens out, and the datasheet will specify what pulse frequency & current will work (a higher current is allowed because it's the average current that matters to heat, etc.). 

By the way, that LCD completely defeats the purpose of the nixies - such a shame he tacked that on there :( 

[Nick]

Didn't sell at that price.

Nick

[David Forbes]

I did a simple study of that issue back in 2002, which is findable in
the early yahoo group archives.

The tubes are 'on' for less time, but the current needs to be somewhat
higher for a similar apparent brightness. The tube life is proportional
to something like i^-3 for higher currents. With a 1/6 duty cycle
multiplexed clock running at twice the current of an always-on clock,
the tube life will be similar but the display a bit less bright appearing.

I've been running my multiplexed ZM1040 clock in my living room for 13
years with no problems.

[gregebert]

I never read any evidence in datasheets or elsewhere that tells me multiplexed tubes last shorter than directly driven tubes

The only 'warning' I've seen is in the Burroughs catalog #616, where a footnote says "Note 1: Due to life considerations only long life nixie tubes are recommended for pulsed operation" . Out of paranoia I use direct-drive, even though my tubes are long-life (5092, 6091) because they are getting harder to find.

[gregebert]

I've been running my multiplexed ZM1040 clock in my living room for 13
years with no problems.

Are your tubes running 24/7, or do they shutdown during off-hours, etc ?

I'm always on the lookout for reliability/lifetime info.

[Matthew Cameron]

On 09/11/2014 12:15 PM, David Forbes wrote:
> The tubes are 'on' for less time, but the current needs to be somewhat higher for a similar apparent brightness. The tube life is
> proportional to something like i^-3 for higher currents. With a 1/6 duty cycle multiplexed clock running at twice the current of
> an always-on clock, the tube life will be similar but the display a bit less bright appearing.

I must have come across that or other research before, because I have come to a similar conclusion, which is: When pulsing the
tube's voltage (either by PWM or multiplexing), as long as you do not increase the current above the direct drive current
specification, then tube lifetime increases. If you increase the current to compensate, then the lifetime benefit decreases before
you reach the original direct drive brightness. I wonder if the strike activity is more stressful than the sustain activity.

Also, pulsing high voltage can rattle loose lightweight metal inside of the tube. Sometimes, the frequency can be heard, as if the
tube were a speaker. I wonder if this movement can affect the buildup of resistive material (sputtering), and if there were to be
benefits, are there any negative consequences due to the vibrations, such as structural or connection failure.

It looks like this clock was built using a clock kit circuit that can power 2 of the 6 tubes simultaneously, making the duty cycle
at each tube 1/3, or 33%, not including any blanking intervals. Assuming that the picture accurately shows dimly lit segments, it
does not look like the current was increased to compensate. So the tube life should be good. Residential settings are usually
poorly lit, and nixie tubes were built for more brightly lit work environments. So a slight decrease from the rated brightness can
be perfectly acceptable.

Personally, I prefer direct drive with current regulation that decreases the brightness based on a light sensor. If the clock is in
direct sunlight, it needs to be brighter. If the room is dark, the tubes need less current. If the room is completely dark, the
tubes may as well be off. This should, at least, double the tube lifetime in most cases (assuming that you do not leave your lights
on all the time). Eventually, I would like to add room occupancy sensors to turn off the clock when there is no one there to admire
them. For clocks that have battery backup for the clock, you can do that now with a lamp motion sensor, but off-the-shelf devices
tend to have poor sensor coverage due to poor placement of the sensor, or a room layout that needs more than one sensor on a switch.

I wonder if there is a better way of limiting the current without using PWM. Some switching power supplies can adjust their voltage
based on an output from a microcontroller. However, I do not like the idea of a switching power supply failing to regulate the
voltage and it sends more voltage then what the tubes should get. I suppose a metal-oxide varistor (MOV) with the proper rating
could be added to protect the tubes. I suspect that these tubes may outlive the high voltage power supply. Maybe a resistor ladder
network would be better. However, my concern is that when digits that require less current are lit, such as the "1" digit, this
might make all other tubes receive more current and thus brighten the digits that should be static.

[MichaelB]

Now that it's sold..anybody notice the rip saw marks on the edge of that face plate.? Not sure if that was acrylic or aluminum, nevertheless the maker did not pay a whole lot of attention to detail and did not bother to sand the saw marks out of his edges. Sorry, I am a bit of a stickler for detail in case construction.

[Greg P]

I noticed......You have a good eye old man  :)  

[MichaelB]

That's Mr.old man to you sir!