3rd try! Mullard Z700 U trigger tubes

[lai...@wcoil.com]

If you have the book Electronic Counting Circuits by Dance, a lot of his
trigger tube counter circuits use Z700 U tubes. These are 4 lead trigger
tubes with the primer electrode for consistant firing even in darkness.
So if you want to build a trigger tube clock this may help. I have found
a source for these on E-bay his E-bay ID is supra_buyer. I have no
relationship with this seller. I purchased 6M-E5 miniature Eye tubes from
him in the past, the deal for the Z700 Us is my second transaction. I
purchased the Z-700U tubes in a buy it now sale E-bay # 280619094369. The
sale was for 10 tubes for $5.00 Plus the cost of shipping. I purchased a
fairly large quantity of Z700 U tubes from him directly. He said that he
has more of these tubes. I told him that I would let the group know about
them. If anybody is interested they can contact him directly about these
tubes. Again I have no relationship with this seller other than as a
buyer. From my transactions I would say he has been honest with me.

Tim Laing

[Grahame Marsh]

Tim

I've ordered some Z700U tubes from this seller as well now - thanks for
the lead. Do you want to swap design ideas and layouts (I use Eagle)?
I have posted the question here in case anyone else is interested as well.

The Philips equivalent (Z70U) application note is available here (just
in case you've not found it):

http://frank.pocnet.net/sheets/152/suppinfo/Z70UZ70W.pdf

Grahame

On 01/03/2011 13:21, lai...@wcoil.com wrote:
>
> If you have the book Electronic Counting Circuits by Dance, a lot of his

> trigger tube counter circuits use Z700 U tubes. ...
>
> Tim Laing
>
>
>
>
>
>
>
>
>
>
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>

[Nick]

I'm still looking for some XC24s... never even detected a hint of any
anywhere...

Nick

[Tidak Ada]

I too,... and GTE175M's and/or GDT125T's

eric

Nick

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[Grahame Marsh]

Some XC24 did go on Ebay - perhaps a year ago now - I missed the auction
totally but did ask the vendor if he had more but alas not. However,
your suggestion Nick, of using a pair back to back does work fine. In
fact mullard documentation suggest that - i.e. using two Z700U rather
than a single Z700W (has two triggers).

GTE175M does appear on Ebay - I've bought about a dozen.

My focus is now on the Z700U - this can be used in ring counters and
also as an interstage dekatron link. I usefulness of the Z700U is it
has a keep alive cathode and so works in complete darkness. My XC18
trigger tube clock is for demonstration use only - it dies in complete
darkness (a 8W UV lamp over it does keep it operating). I also want
to try using a Z700U as a relaxation oscillator driving a dekatron as a
variable speed spinner a la three neurons.

Grahame

[Tidak Ada]

Grahame wich tube is more usefull to focus on to drive dekatrons: the
GTE175M or the GDT125T ?
I liked to make a clockrate divider beginning with two Elesta EZ10B,
followed by three Sylvania 6879's, preferrably driven bij cold cathode
tubes, and avoiding semiconductors. the highest frequency to manage is
400kc's

eric

-----Original Message-----
From: neoni...@googlegroups.com [mailto:neoni...@googlegroups.com] On

Grahame

--

[threeneurons]

> using a Z700U as a relaxation oscillator driving a dekatron as a
>

> Grahame
>
Are you really talking about the Z70U & Z70W, and there's a typo, or a
whole different set of parts (Z700U & Z700W) ?

http://frank.pocnet.net/sheets/030/z/Z70U.pdf
http://frank.pocnet.net/sheets/030/z/Z70W.pdf

If it is the Z70 (u or w), then a dekatron drive ckt should be
possible. At least on paper. The nominal anode supply is 250V, and the
anode drop, when ON, is 121V max. That's ~130V step (250V off to 121V
on). Should be plenty to kick a dekatron. Plus they're nice small
packages.

Please let me know if we're looking at the same parts.

[threeneurons]

I looked at the original eBay listing, an they indeed have Z700U
stamped on the part:

http://cgi.ebay.com/ws/eBayISAPI.dll?ViewItem&item=280619094369

They look just like the Z70U. So my next question is, are the two
parts related, other than being both made by Philips (Mullard was a
Philips company) ?

[Grahame Marsh]

Hi

My understanding is that Z70U and & Z700U (and Z70W/Z700W) are identical
parts labelled by Mullard and Philips respectively. Ref: pages 49 & 65
Dance Electronic Counting Circuits.

Dance shows them together in the data tables and electrically
identical. When I get a beast (in the post) I can check the Z700U
physically but I'd be very suprised if they are different.

The Z70W/Z700W appears a direct substitute for the Z70U/Z700U except it
has twin trigger electrodes (U vs W perhaps a pun?)

The Neale that I'm scanning this morning has additional circuit examples
for trigger tubes (and dekatrons, nixies etc).

Grahame

On 23/03/2011 23:26, threeneurons wrote:
> Are you really talking about the Z70U & Z70W, and there's...
>

[Grahame Marsh]

Eric

I've never used a GDT125T but I have used GTE175M as an interstage
coupler using the commonly available circuit. Not suprisingly it
worked! I've only divided by 50 from 50Hz to get 1pps. Using a divide
by 10 dekatron driven with sine wave , a GTE175M coupler and a 10
cathode dekatron with cathodes 0 and 5 commoned together to get divide
by 5 - a trick that works in 50 Hz land but a 12 cathode dekatron would
be needed in 60 Hz land. I have also built vacuum valve couplers -the
advantage is a simpler power supply the disadvantage is the heater supply.

400kHz is a real challenge for gas filled counting. Mostly a count in
the 10's kHz is the highest you'll get. The 6879 has a maximum
frequency of 5 kHz for example. High vacuum counters (eg E1T) get to 30
kHz (selected tubes get to 100 kHz). But that said, there were some
remarkably high speed gas filled counters made just as the semiconductor
was taking over. But are they available?

Grahame

[Tidak Ada]

Grahame,

Thanks for your answer.

Those EZ10B's are specified for f(t) of 1 Mhz ! I have a 10ppm 400kHz TCXO,
so I hope I can manage these high frequencies. However, I am afraid the
drivers will make the bottle-neck, Before I got the dekatrons, I planned to
devide with CMOS, but the challenge of an (almost) all tube design is
temptative. Must I suppose you have no experience with those high speed
dekatrons ?
The choice for cold cathodes is to minimize the supply power.

Thanks for sending the MC Neale book.
I forgot to send this answer to your last reaction to me. Therfore I was a
little confused about the book. Thought first it was an answe on my quetion
below:
About the Dance book: Do you have a complete scan of all pages or is it the
same as my copy and do you miss the pages 310 - 374 ? And what about the
pages 376 to the end (containing the register) ?
In case you have the missing pages within reach, I should highly appreciate
a (pdf) copy of them to complete my book.

In case you understand the German language, I possibly can serve you a copy
of "Glimmröhren und Kaltkatoden-Relaisröhren"; Radio Praktiker Bücherei 28;
Franzis Verlag by Otto paul Herrnkind (160 pages).

Kind regards,

eric

-----Original Message-----
From: neoni...@googlegroups.com [mailto:neoni...@googlegroups.com] On
Behalf Of Grahame Marsh
Sent: donderdag 24 maart 2011 10:08
To: neoni...@googlegroups.com
Subject: Re: [neonixie-l] Re: 3rd try! Mullard Z700 U trigger tubes

Eric

Grahame

> tubes, and avoiding semiconductors. The highest frequency to manage is
> 400kc's
>
> eric

--

[Grahame Marsh]

Eric

Yep, I forgot about the EZ10B but it is available and fit for 1 MHz.
Again I've never played with one. I've used the much larger and clunky
dekatrons.

I have Electronic Counting Circuits as a book so I can scan the pages
you list. What dpi would you like them scanned at and what file
format? The book is too large for my A4 scanner to do 2 pages per scan
so you'll get one page per image. I will zip them and then let you know
where to download them from (rather than what might be a large email
attachment).

I also have 2 other books by Dance "Cold Cathode Tubes" which circulates
as a pdf and "Photoelectronic Devices" (1969) which I have still to scan
and pdf.

My German is rudimentry: numbers, thank you, yes, no, food, beer and
wine (the essentials) so I can get by... I'd like to see the book (I
guess others would as well) because the diagrams will be universal. My
wife's German is much better than mine and I normally use her as my
translator.

Grahame

On 24/03/2011 16:53, Tidak Ada wrote:
> Grahame,
>
> Thanks for your answer.
>
> Those EZ10B's are specified for f(t) of 1 Mhz ! I have a 10ppm 400kHz TCXO,
> so I hope I can manage these high frequencies. However, I am afraid the
> drivers will make the bottle-neck, Before I got the dekatrons, I planned to
> devide with CMOS, but the challenge of an (almost) all tube design is
> temptative. Must I suppose you have no experience with those high speed
> dekatrons ?
> The choice for cold cathodes is to minimize the supply power.
>
> Thanks for sending the MC Neale book.
> I forgot to send this answer to your last reaction to me. Therfore I was a
> little confused about the book. Thought first it was an answe on my quetion
> below:
> About the Dance book: Do you have a complete scan of all pages or is it the
> same as my copy and do you miss the pages 310 - 374 ? And what about the
> pages 376 to the end (containing the register) ?
> In case you have the missing pages within reach, I should highly appreciate
> a (pdf) copy of them to complete my book.
>
> In case you understand the German language, I possibly can serve you a copy

> of "Glimmr�hren und Kaltkatoden-Relaisr�hren"; Radio Praktiker B�cherei 28;

[CerberoVolante]

Il 24/03/2011 17.53, Tidak Ada ha scritto:
> Grahame,
>
> Thanks for your answer.
>
> Those EZ10B's are specified for f(t) of 1 Mhz ! I have a 10ppm 400kHz TCXO,
> so I hope I can manage these high frequencies. However, I am afraid the
> drivers will make the bottle-neck, Before I got the dekatrons, I planned to
> devide with CMOS, but the challenge of an (almost) all tube design is
> temptative. Must I suppose you have no experience with those high speed
> dekatrons ?
> The choice for cold cathodes is to minimize the supply power.
>
> Thanks for sending the MC Neale book.
> I forgot to send this answer to your last reaction to me. Therfore I was a
> little confused about the book. Thought first it was an answe on my quetion
> below:
> About the Dance book: Do you have a complete scan of all pages or is it the
> same as my copy and do you miss the pages 310 - 374 ? And what about the
> pages 376 to the end (containing the register) ?
> In case you have the missing pages within reach, I should highly appreciate
> a (pdf) copy of them to complete my book.
>
> In case you understand the German language, I possibly can serve you a copy

> of "Glimmr�hren und Kaltkatoden-Relaisr�hren"; Radio Praktiker B�cherei 28;

> Franzis Verlag by Otto paul Herrnkind (160 pages).
>
> Kind regards,
>
> eric
>

Hi Eric
My name is Diego and i write from Triest (Italy) (so please , sorry for
my horrible English)
I have the complete scan of this book (all the page including the
missing that the Dieter's version haven't)

I did the scan from a book that I borrowed at the university library
were I live.
The scan is very heavy (100Mb), so if you have an idea as i can send
you....tell me.
Or if you want only the missing page I can send you only those...

I understand a bit of german language (Triest was part of the Austro
Hungarian emperor :-)
So write me in private mail(remove all the numbers before)
666cerbero6...@gmail.com

[Tidak Ada]

Hi Graham,

Thanks for your answer.

I just discovered the GTE175M and GDE120T are unsuitable, because the
datasheets say the first only can manage frequencies up to 1kHz and the
second has a ionisation time of 1 ms and a deionisation time of 5 ms.
So the challenge is to find a circuit that can amplify the output of the
clock oscillator to an appropriate level at at least 500 kHz and to find a
transfer circuit that is able to manage >40 kc's. Otherwise I will need to
devide the clock to less a s 1kHz by logic circuits.

Scans of the original size at 300dpi bitmap size in PNG format are most
convenient, for they have the smallest file size. Also PDF's made fron such
scans are sufficiënt. Please don't send color scans, for they are trice as
big as greyscale images. For photo's and greyscale immages I always use
greyscale scans in jpeg at high quality compression (8 to 10) or even TIF's.

Thanks for helping me.

I will look what I can do with the German booklet. There is an other guy
intrested too.

eric

-----Original Message-----
From: neoni...@googlegroups.com [mailto:neoni...@googlegroups.com] On
Behalf Of Grahame Marsh
Sent: vrijdag 25 maart 2011 13:13
To: neoni...@googlegroups.com
Subject: Re: [neonixie-l] Re: 3rd try! Mullard Z700 U trigger tubes

Eric

Yep, I forgot about the EZ10B but it is available and fit for 1 MHz.

Grahame

> copy of "Glimmröhren und Kaltkatoden-Relaisröhren"; Radio Praktiker
> Bücherei 28; Franzis Verlag by Otto paul Herrnkind (160 pages).

[threeneurons]

| I just discovered the GTE175M and GDE120T are unsuitable,
| because the datasheets say the first only can manage frequencies
| up to 1kHz and the second has a ionisation time of 1 ms and a
| deionisation time of 5 ms.

| EZ10B but it is available and fit for 1 MHz.  

Yeah, cold cathode gas triggers are pretty slow, so are most cold
cathode tubes. Its pretty amazing that they got the EZ10B upto 1MHz. A
krytron may work, if you can get your hands on one. A more realistic
option, is to use a common vacuum tube (ECC82/12AU7, or ECC91/6J6).
The 6J6 was designed for RF & IF apps, so switching at 1MHz is not a
problem for that tube, and they sell for dirt.

[Grahame Marsh]

Hi Eric

You need page 134 onwards in Dance Electronic Counting Circuits for
vacuum valve input and couplers upto 1 MHz. Do you have this would you
like me to scan and email?

Cheers
Grahame

On 28/03/2011 22:25, Tidak Ada wrote:
> Hi Graham,
>
> Thanks for your answer.
>
> I just discovered the GTE175M and GDE120T are unsuitable, because the
> datasheets say the first only can manage frequencies up to 1kHz and the
> second has a ionisation time of 1 ms and a deionisation time of 5 ms.
> So the challenge is to find a circuit that can amplify the output of the
> clock oscillator to an appropriate level at at least 500 kHz and to find a
> transfer circuit that is able to manage>40 kc's. Otherwise I will need to
> devide the clock to less a s 1kHz by logic circuits.
>
> Scans of the original size at 300dpi bitmap size in PNG format are most
> convenient, for they have the smallest file size. Also PDF's made fron such

> scans are suffici�nt. Please don't send color scans, for they are trice as

>> copy of "Glimmr�hren und Kaltkatoden-Relaisr�hren"; Radio Praktiker
>> B�cherei 28; Franzis Verlag by Otto paul Herrnkind (160 pages).

[Tidak Ada]

Hi Graham and Mike,

Thanks for pushing me in teh right direction. I was so fixed to filamentless
solutions that B was blind for this pages. Gives intresting rading stuff and
hopefully a nice experinementing time time. Furthermore I see, I have to
think even about a transistor solution , as a possibility to deminish power
consumption.

Graham as you will understand now, the pages in queston, I alreday have and
what's more, I received the missing pages from Dance's book 'Electronic
Counting Circuits' this night from Italy.
Anyhow, I would be glad to receive copies from the other books, Cold Cathode
Tubes you mentioned when you have found time to scan them. May be you can
start with pages that apply to my problems sooner, but tyhat's up to you.

Cheers,

eric

Hi Eric

Cheers
Grahame

> fron such scans are sufficiënt. Please don't send color scans, for

>> a copy of "Glimmröhren und Kaltkatoden-Relaisröhren"; Radio Praktiker

>> Bücherei 28; Franzis Verlag by Otto paul Herrnkind (160 pages).

[Grahame Marsh]

Eric

Sorry I have been rushing around and not reading your posts properly. I
realise now (having read them s_l_o_w_l_y what you are doing. The Dance
ECC book (which you now have complete) is the best reference for
circuits I have (Weston being equally best in other regards). The Cold
Cathode Tube book is much more lightweight but I will assemble it as a
pdf and put it up for everyone to download (I'm sure it was around as a
pdf already?).

Cheers, and with less haste, Grahame

>> fron such scans are suffici�nt. Please don't send color scans, for

>>> a copy of "Glimmr�hren und Kaltkatoden-Relaisr�hren"; Radio Praktiker
>>> B�cherei 28; Franzis Verlag by Otto paul Herrnkind (160 pages).