New member has a question
neutron spin
I find this group to be one of the most interesting hobby
groups!....With the compliment out of the way, I have a question on
the various microcontroller firmware out there. I am looking for some
free (OK... I said it!) firmware to use in a new nixie clock project.
Atmel or Microchip microcontrollers would be the desired platform. I
have the ability to flash the hex code to the chips but my programming
skills are terrible at best.
I understand that the folks that sell clocks or kits out there have to
protect their code. But I was looking for something open source or
whatever that I could experiment with to get me started. I have
collected several Russian nixies and would like to start a project.
Any information would be greatly appreciated. Thank you very much.
Regards
jb-electronics
OK, I will suggest this: Try to work out your own code ;-)
Maybe it sounds like a bad advice to you right now, but it is important
to write own code in order to fully understand microcontrollers.
Changing existing code will only do half the trick.
So here's my advice: Start with a simple one-Nixie tube counter, then
add a switch, and bam, you have your first one digit clock. Then develop
a two, four and six digit clock, and by then you will have grasped the
essential ideas.
I am sure there are lots of people who can help you, whether you chose
Atmel or Microchip.
Regards,
Jens
David Forbes
>
> I understand that the folks that sell clocks or kits out there have to
> protect their code. But I was looking for something open source or
> whatever that I could experiment with to get me started. I have
> collected several Russian nixies and would like to start a project.
> Any information would be greatly appreciated. Thank you very much.
>
> Regards
>
Google the question, and you will find several open source clock
designs. Some are more complicated than others. All of them have more
code than you probably want to understand, but it's good to read through
the source code to learn what's involved in making a clock work.
--
David Forbes, Tucson AZ
neutron spin
brush up my programming skills...who knows perhaps I may even enjoy
it! A person who can figure out what makes something tick will have a
greater appreciation for whatever they do....
Mimewar
it's own basic bootloader. You can get moving very quickly using
picaxe, and you can have a single tube going in no time. Any
questions, feel free to ask. As I posted earlier, I'm brushing up on
all things nixie, so I'm kind of in the same boat.
Shane
Robert Sexton
threeneurons
If you're not adverse to hand wiring your own circuits, you can always
reproduce one of my clocks. Here's a link to my Skydrive:
https://skydrive.live.com/?cid=F9DB37B8211CE831
Look in the 'Electronics Projects' folder, in the 'Nixie Clock #3' sub-
folder. There are both schematic drawings (hand drawn with a pencil)
and the HEX code for a AVR mega8 uC. The clock is only 4 digits
(hh:mm) but it also drives a dekatron. A Russian OG-4, or A101 will
work with it.
neutron spin
James
of the AVR microcontrollers and the Bascom AVR compiler. A free demo
is available that is only limited in the max code size you can
compile, a limit I have never come close to with a clock. If you
prefer C you can use WinAVR which is completely free.
PIC is another popular hobby chip but when I was looking the compiler
selection was more limited and more expensive.
I can dig up code for the clocks I've built, but I hand wired them
back before I was drawing schematics and etching PCBs so you'd be on
your own for the most part in duplicating the design.
James
that does?
neutron spin
Robert Sexton
neutron spin
Robert Sexton
neutron spin
Adam Jacobs
http://www.jacobstribe.org/files/6-digit-12hr.zip
I spent a lot of time modifying this codebase for various features and display types, etc.. It uses the ATTiny2313, so it forces you to think small. :) Of course, Atmel makes it really easy to change microcontrollers, so the code would work without too many changes on a bigger chip.. but then you lose the challenge. ;)
I've rewritten my own clock firmwares from scratch for various clocks now, but I definitely feel that having a starting point to work from was a help to _me_. It's not nearly as daunting to take an existing software and add GPS to it or whatever than to start from scratch.
-Adam
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neutron spin
James
similar to Qbasic. If you want C, grab WinAVR, both are free.
The ATTINY2313 is a great chip, low cost, easy to get in both DIP and
SMT packages and it has WAAAAAAAAAY more than enough power for any
Nixie clock.
Any number of different AVR ISP programming circuits are available, I
recommend one compatible with the STK500 protocol so that it works
seamlessly with AVR Studio.
If you do decide to go with the AVR, there's the AVR Freaks discussion
board with a lot of active users.
Adam Jacobs
A cheap DASA programmer or the USBTiny are great programmers, don't get me wrong.. But you're stuck dealing with them commandline from AVRdude.. I've got better things to do than to sit around calculating fuse values and suchlike.
I picked up a chinese AVRISP clone on ebay for $30.. I think you can even buy _REAL_ avrisp's for about $30 now. Don't waste money on a programmer that isn't supported by AVR Studio.
http://www.mouser.com/ProductDetail/Atmel/ATAVRISP2/?qs=sGAEpiMZZMv256HIxPBQcA8%252bsNH3cLLR
Also, as always, I recommend this guy's JTAG ICE kit:
http://www.nkcelectronics.com/avr-jtag-ice-clone-debugger-programmer-kit.html
It's getting a little long in the tooth (It only works on the older JTAG ready AVRMega's... The ATMega32 or ATMega32a for example, not the ATMega644) but if you're willing to live with that design constraint, it can be VERY handy to be able to debug while running on target hardware. Otherwise you're stuck with hansel & gretel debugging (leaving breadcrumbs). Obviously, chips that don't support JTAG (like the ATTiny2313) won't support this ICE.
-Adam
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neutron spin
Adam Jacobs
-Adam
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John Rehwinkel
> A cheap DASA programmer or the USBTiny are great programmers, don't get me wrong.. But you're stuck dealing with them commandline from AVRdude.. I've got better things to do than to sit around calculating fuse values and suchlike.
> I picked up a chinese AVRISP clone on ebay for $30.. I think you can even buy _REAL_ avrisp's for about $30 now.
You can get Lady Ada's AVR ISP workalike in kit form for $22:
http://www.adafruit.com/products/46
It works with AVR studio as well. I don't use AVR studio, as it's DOS-only, but it works fine with AVRdude too (of course).
- John KG4L
Adam Jacobs
I love an awful lot of Limor's stuff and her site in general, but that particular device... I think you're better off paying the extra $10 and getting the AVRISP Mk2.
(I know that Limor Fried is a member of this list.. or at least used to be)
What we need is a kit-form STK500/AVRISP compatible programmer.
-Adam
You can get Lady Ada's AVR ISP workalike in kit form for $22:
http://www.adafruit.com/products/46
It works with AVR studio as well. I don't use AVR studio, as it's DOS-only, but it works fine with AVRdude too (of course).
- John KG4L
--
threeneurons
| Regards
|
| Robert
From a learning standpoint, you could go either way (AVR or ARM). For
a clock app, and ARM is really overkill, but that could be said for an
AVR too. A clock is just a counter string, which can be (and has been)
done with just a few logic chips. But its also a good app, to get feet
wet in this whole idea of embedded programming. Its not as if you were
designing for production, so have fun.
That MBED looks like it uses the same concept as the AVR Arduino:
http://mbed.org/
http://www.arduino.cc/en/Main/Hardware
AVR devices come in DIP packages, so you can build your one-off hobby
project straight onto a perf board, if you want to get away from the
arduino. ARM chips are exclusively SMT, and fine pitch parts at that,
so that MBED platform is real handy. It gives the hobbyist a lot a
horsepower to play with.
To the newbies, an ARM is a serious processor. Comparing it to an AVR,
is like comparing apples, to not oranges, but truck loads of apples.
And don't worry about the overkill issue. Especially, for learning
purposes. If someone told me, 30-years ago, to use a uC for a chase-
lite circuit, I would have showed the the door, with the pointy end of
my shoe. A little over 10-years ago, I did just that (the chase lite
uC circuit, not the shoe thing). At under a buck, for a low end uC, it
was the logical way to go. It saved both on cost, and labor of the
added hand wiring.
That being said, there is a strong current in the nixie community, to
go retro. Not just in the tubes, but how they're driven. Screw the
processors. No ARM. No AVR, nor PIC. No old 6502. No TTL logic, or any
other IC. But use discrete components. Preferably using only tubes. A
few have done it. There are about 4 of 5 examples that I'm aware of. I
even have one pencil whipped. But it doesn't count, until there's some
real working hardware.
neutron spin
it is a retro way of doing this. Perhaps using wire spring relays or
step by step switches would really be interesting....but it would need
a couple of racks to build...not really practical. I envision smaller
compact designs...like four IN-17 nixies on a board the size of a
matchbox. I am sure this has been done already but not with a Cortex
MCU...maybe it already has?.....but I really appreciate the
information and this may give me enough motive to start something
new....regards
Robert
On 14 July, 21:25, threeneurons <threeneur...@yahoo.com> wrote:
> | I have an STK-500 that all it was ever used for was to
> | burn some hex for a few chips ...
> | I was checking on a little ARM MBED 1768 dev board from
> | NXP and it also looked promising. ... if I learn on a more
> | sophistated MCU perhaps that would be beneficial later on.
> | ... may be overkill
> | Regards
> |
> | Robert
>
> From a learning standpoint, you could go either way (AVR or ARM). For
> a clock app, and ARM is really overkill, but that could be said for an
> AVR too. A clock is just a counter string, which can be (and has been)
> done with just a few logic chips. But its also a good app, to get feet
> wet in this whole idea of embedded programming. Its not as if you were
> designing for production, so have fun.
>
> That MBED looks like it uses the same concept as the AVR Arduino:
>
threeneurons
| I envision smaller compact designs...like four IN-17
| nixies on a board the size of a matchbox. I am sure this
| has been done already but not with a Cortex MCU
|
If that's your objective, then an ARM may not be the way to go. A
straight 'little' uC (AVR, PIC, 8-bit anyways) will be proper route.
ARMs, even a Cortex M0, may be too big. An AVR like the tiny44 (24, 84
too), might be a better fit. You'll have to abandon the crutch of a
MBED or Arduino. It's a dedicated PCB, with a lone little uC. To keep
parts down, try a special type of multiplexing called
'charlieplexing'.
You can try honing your skills with your AVR starter kit. Once you
feel up to snuff, then go for the dedicated hardware.
neutron spin
Tiny series are made in surface mount packages. Sandwich construction
(Tube board stacked) and controller using mostly surface mount parts.
This would accomplish two of my objectives.....to make a small
footprint nixie clock and hone my skills with surface mount
construction. I have Eagle to do the layout and I am average on the
use of it. This is sounding more like a doable project. Another
dream of mine is to totally encapsulate the clock in clear casting
resin with only the power jack and pushbuttons accessable. there may
be heat issues but a totally (almost) encapsulated clock that could be
dropped without damage...I remember a light brick design that was a
solid brick of resin with LED's inside...of course if any component
failed... bye bye clock...what a waste of nixies....crazy idea....are
there any good reference documents that cover
"Charlieplexing"?...thanks again
Regards
Robert
David Forbes
> Yes for the IN-17 design AVR would be my choice. I believe the AVR
> Tiny series are made in surface mount packages. Sandwich construction
> (Tube board stacked) and controller using mostly surface mount parts.
> This would accomplish two of my objectives.....to make a small
> footprint nixie clock and hone my skills with surface mount
> construction. I have Eagle to do the layout and I am average on the
> use of it. This is sounding more like a doable project. Another
> dream of mine is to totally encapsulate the clock in clear casting
> resin with only the power jack and pushbuttons accessable. there may
> be heat issues but a totally (almost) encapsulated clock that could be
> dropped without damage...I remember a light brick design that was a
> solid brick of resin with LED's inside...of course if any component
> failed... bye bye clock...what a waste of nixies....crazy idea....are
> there any good reference documents that cover
> "Charlieplexing"?...thanks again
>
> Regards
>
> Robert
I did such a design last summer, and even got a few boards made, but I
never got around to building it. Crazy!
I used a 44 pin PIC quad flat pack and four of the tiny TD62083 drivers
I use in my 2 digit nixie watch.
I cheated a bit and used a neon tube for the leftmost '1' digit, since
it's smaller.
The whole design is the size of the IN-17 tubes, and just as thick as
they are with their plastic spacers. But there's a CR2 lithium battery
behind it to provide power. I take off the tube spacers and use tiny
socket pins. The tube board has holes for the tube nipples to poke
through. The second board in the stack has all the chips.
http://www.cathodecorner.com/nw35/NWDAart.pdf
http://www.cathodecorner.com/nw35/NWDAschem.pdf
Source code is not written, but is a modification of my 2-digit Nixie watch.
Eric1180
So my clock has 4 bulbs (IN-12) and it turns on one at a time and displays that number, then it turn off and the next bulb turn on with the next number, when you do this fast enough that's called multiplexing and you can't tell that they are not all on at the same time..
So all you need with my desgine is $10 Anarduino $2-3, RTC 1307 $2 HV driver 74141, 74hc595 $.50, some transistors $3 and that it.
Arduino has free easy to get to software and when it gets down to it, it's just a clock and you don't need a <$20 microcontroler You can email if you chose my path and I can give you my code
Robert Sexton
Quixotic Nixotic
> ....are there any good reference documents that cover
> "Charlieplexing"?
There is a Maxim document that explains the concept. Google is your
friend here. http://lmgtfy.com/?q=charlieplexing. If you cannot find
it then there is a link to the original article on my web page link
below.
In relation to nixie clocks, I have made two charlieplex clocks. A
two tube and a four tube clock.
The two tube charlieplex clock using HIVAC XN12s can be seen on my
website at http://www.clock-it.net/charlienixie/index.html
If you scroll down, you can see a short video of the clock running.
Personally I like this little clock a lot. People who see it like it
too, I think that is down to the blinky bicolo(u)r LEDs though.
If you want to build this clock, and a few people have already done
so, then I offer a coded PIC at modest cost.
The system relies on doubling up on pins so that each pair can drive
two cathodes, depending on which is high and which is low, the
formula for the number of outputs available being N*N-1 pins. Thus
six pins can drive 6x5 or 20 cathodes. Enough for my 16 cathodes and
a few spares for decimal points, if I had any.
The system works well, but as only one cathode is on at once, I found
that it drove four tubes dimly unless I upped the boiler pressure
considerably, which may not be a good thing for long nixie life. In
this case I drove 36 cathodes from 7 data lines. 7x6 gives a possible
42 outputs, so I had spares. A few spares actually give you some
scope for routing the board to your best advantage if space is at a
premium.
During construction the system can seem confusing, as it is
unforgiving of open circuits anywhere. A disconnected wire causes all
other cathodes in the same group to glow at reduced brightness. This
is also apparent in my Charlieplex LED clocks. It can make a single
fault look horrendous, but it will make you laugh once you realise
what is happening.
John S
Quixotic Nixotic
On 15 Jul 2011, at 09:58, Quixotic Nixotic wrote:
> Thus six pins can drive 6x5 or 20 cathodes. Enough for my 16
> cathodes and a few spares for decimal points, if I had any.
Of course this is wrong. I have 5 data lines giving 5x4 or 20
cathodes. Numpty.
John S
Sean Voisen
started is to build your own simplified Arduino clone on a breadboard
or perfboard and use the Arduino IDE and libraries for programming.
Get an FTDI adapter from Sparkfun and an Atmega328 with the Arduino
bootloader already on it. (The alternative is to buy an Arduino and
pop the chip out.) Build your clock around your perfboard clone. There
are tutorials scattered about the Internet on how to build an Arduino
clone on breadboard/perfboard, and the Arduino schematics are readily
available.
This is exactly how I built my first clock:
http://voisen.org/portfolio/mercury-retrograde/ (I'll happily share
the source if you want it.)
Sure, Arduino is hyped, but there's a reason for that. The Arduino
"Wiring" libraries are really the key. They make AVR programming super
simple by abstracting away the complexity of AVR Libc. This eliminates
the need for AVRStudio (a beast of a program) or buying an AVRStudio
compatible programmer (expensive). Once you're comfortable with the
Arduino libraries, it's much easier to move to straight AVR Libc if
you want.
Really the Arduino isn't anything special. It's just an Atmega328
microcontroller + USB + power supply in a nice form factor with nice
libraries and an (albeit crappy) IDE. But it has a huge and friendly
user community, and tutorials/examples galore.
My two cents,
Sean
neutron spin
question...do you need to shake it that hard to change modes?....A
tilt switch like in my Android is very easy to activate but you
probably need more axis or modes so ...(X/Y/Z) so accelerometer was
needed. I do have an Arduino that is collecting dust on a shelf...The
IDE was sort of flaky to me...perhaps I should dust it off and give
your design a try...if it is OK with you...Is all the info on
Github....schematic, etc.? If the code is available that would at
least get me started. I have some IN-15's I believe with sockets
laying around here ....I think once I made something that works it
would give me more confidence in tackling more advanced
projects....thanks again
Regards
Robert
On 15 July, 11:44, Sean Voisen <svoi...@gmail.com> wrote:
> If you're a bad/beginner programmer, I think the easiest way to get
> started is to build your own simplified Arduino clone on a breadboard
> or perfboard and use the Arduino IDE and libraries for programming.
> Get an FTDI adapter from Sparkfun and an Atmega328 with the Arduino
> bootloader already on it. (The alternative is to buy an Arduino and
> pop the chip out.) Build your clock around your perfboard clone. There
> are tutorials scattered about the Internet on how to build an Arduino
> clone on breadboard/perfboard, and the Arduino schematics are readily
> available.
>
Adam Jacobs
I think you've touched on exactly the primary advantage of the
arduino: the existing library of little programs out there for
interfacing to various bits of hardware. You want to use a DS1307? No
need to look through the datasheets and figure out how to interface to
it, all you need to do is include the DS1307 interface library. I can
definitely imagine the appeal. However, the disadvantages as I see them:
1) You need to add hardware to your schematic to make an "arduino"..
This includes a serial port interface chip and a few other things.
2) You are limited to a couple of very specific AVR chips.. the
ATMega168 & ATMega328 I believe. This kind of negates one of the primary
advantages of the AVR platform, the huge catalog of parts and the ease
of migration from one to another.
3) You can't use AVRStudio, which is actually a pretty decent IDE.
I think that the arduino would be a neat/easy way to get into doing this
without needing to understand everything.. but I think it would start to
cramp fairly quickly. When you're finding yourself wiring up huge
charlieplexing schemes because you can't use a chip with more I/O pins,
I think you'll see what I'm talking about. :)
Also, do arduinos support JTAG?
This idea of "start from a high level and work your way down" is not a
new one. Teach the kids basic first, the 'harder' languages later, etc.
I've always been a proponent of the opposite. Teach the kids assembler
first and higher level languages later. The basic building blocks really
are quite easy to understand and will serve you in good stead when
trying to learn the latest and greatest high level language.
Again, it really depends on the end goal. If the goal is to learn
microcontrollers, then I would suggest avoiding the arduino. If the goal
is to build a clock, then the arduino is not a bad plan at all. If the
arduino will get you working on the thing where you wouldn't have
otherwise, then I'm all for it. The important thing is to stop talking
about it and start spending some serious hours working on it.
-Adam
Adam Jacobs
You should take the time to draw up a schematic and post your code to
the files section. I'm sure that lots of members, both current and
future, would appreciate the work you have done. To the best of my
knowledge, nobody has posted any arduino nixie clock code here yet, so
this would be a great addition.
-Adam
threeneurons
> "Charlieplexing"?...thanks again
>
> Regards
>
> Robert
>
https://skydrive.live.com/?cid=F9DB37B8211CE831
In the 'Snippets' folder for the file: Charliplex_T44.gif
For example, you make a square matrix. 4 I/O bits for a 4x4 matrix. So
for I/O bits A,B,C, & D; you have 4 rows: Row-A, B, C, & D; and 4
columns: Col-A, B, C & D. You put a transistor at the intersecting
node of each row and column, except where the 'like' row and columns
meet, like A-A, B-B, C-C, & D-D. Omit those. So you should have 12
possibilities. Tie the base of the transistor to the row lead, and its
emitter to the column lead. A base resistor can be shared across the
whole row. A transistor is turned on, if its base is brought to a
logic-1, and its base to a logic-0.
For this scheme to work, the I/O port needs to have push-pull
capabilities, when used as an output, and go to a Hi-Z (look open),
when configured as an input. The AVR I/O bits can do this using two
registers for each port. The output port register itself (ie PORTA),
and its associated DDR register (Data Direction Register, ie DDRA). To
select a transistor to be turned ON, you have unique settings for BOTH
the PORT and DDR registers. I have shown two tables, that are used to
control the cathode lines (K0 thru K9, & Kcol-Colon). An older uC like
the 8051 family couldn't be used for charliplexing.
In the code, charliplexing forces you to learn how to use 'tables',
and 'indexed' addressing. Think array. The difference between an array
and a table, is that a table is fixed list of data, while an array, is
a list of variable data. If you want to display a '4', you use 4 as
your index. Put 4 in a variable called 'i'. You need to set both PORTA
and DDRA. Get data for PORTA, by reading TBL_PA(i), and DDRA by
accessing TBL_DDRA(i). Tables TBL_PA & TBL_DDRA are defined by you, in
your code, using my scribbles.
Do similarly, for the anodes. Note, in charlieplexing, only one node
is ON at a time. Throw in blanking intervals between digits, to bleed
off any capacitive charge.
If you're old enough, you'll remember were the term table comes from.
Back in the days before calculators, we had to use tables for odd math
functions. Remember trig tables. Tables that gave you the sine,
cosine, and tangent of angles from 0 to 90 degrees. Often in
resolution finer than a degree, if it was in the back of your trig
book. They had whole books that were just one table, If you needed
finer precision.
Tables are a powerful tool. If you don't have to, stay away from fancy
math functions that are calculated in real time. That eats a lot of
CPU clocks. When possible, pre-calculate those values and insert the
result as tables in your code (compile time). That way, when your code
is running, it will get you those values in a heart-beat.
neutron spin
outputs...seems like there were discrete IC's that had similar
outputs...Yes I remember tables...The Smith Charts sticks in my
head....still have my old slide rule!....thanks for the info.. you are
a treasure trove of information...
Regards
Robert
threeneurons
| Excellent write-up....really takes the mystery out of it
| .. you are a treasure trove of information...
|
| Regards
|
| Robert
such a good fit in this group.
Charlieplexing was devised by at Maxim Semi, and used mostly for
driving LEDs:
http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Charlieplex
Jason Harper, a member of this group (or at least its Yahoo
predecessor) was the 1st guy I saw, that applied it to the BE junction
of a transistor. Its obvious, once you see it, and that usually
indicates a pretty damn good idea. And good thing is, that you save on
not having a bunch of extra decoding chips.
John Rehwinkel
> math functions that are calculated in real time. That eats a lot of
> CPU clocks.
It also eats a lot of RAM. Many small microcontrollers have tiny amounts of RAM (a few hundred bytes), but plenty of (flash) ROM (several kilobytes). So tables that can live in ROM are no problem, but if you try to build them on the fly, where they'll have to live in RAM, you'll quickly run out.
- John KG4L
neutron spin
are an interesting device. Toshiba makes them I believe...this is the
first time I have seen them in a nixie clock but it sure is a good way
of conserving space for driving the tubes....Mr. Forbes you have just
planted a seed in my brain that may start growing soon......My idea of
an encapsulated brick clock is starting to take form....thanks...
Regards
Robert
Quixotic Nixotic
> Charlieplexing was devised by at Maxim Semi, and used mostly for
> driving LEDs:
>
> Jason Harper, a member of this group (or at least its Yahoo
> predecessor) was the 1st guy I saw, that applied it to the BE junction
> of a transistor. Its obvious, once you see it, and that usually
> indicates a pretty damn good idea.
But am I the only person who has actually built working nixie clocks
using Charlieplexing? How many others are there out there? I have
sold one or two PCs to people wishing to make the two tube clock. I
have not had any feedback from them.
John S
neutron spin
tube design. The only application that comes to mind is the "Bulbdial
Clock" designed by the Evil Mad Scientist...used for LED's...
Regards
Robert W8UUU
Sean Voisen
Thanks! The code is on Github:
https://github.com/svoisen/mercury_retrograde The schematic is not. I
think I still have it in Eagle - I will try to get that posted up
there as a PDF as well. But you are right, it's a 3-axis
accelerometer that is used to detect shakes and tilts.
The clock is 6-way multiplexed using a single 74141 driver. Also there
is no RTC. Instead I use the Atmega with 16Mhz crystal to keep time
and use a supercapacitor for backup power. It keeps surprisingly good
time. You're free to try the design - I'll let you know when I get the
schematics up - but a clock with buttons would certainly be easier :)
Sean
Sean Voisen
On Fri, Jul 15, 2011 at 10:49 AM, Adam Jacobs <ad...@jacobs.us> wrote:
> 1) You need to add hardware to your schematic to make an "arduino".. This
> includes a serial port interface chip and a few other things.
Eh, not really. You do need a serial port interface, but it certainly
doesn't have to be part of your schematic. Sparkfun sells FTDI
interface "dongles" that you can use. They're about $15. I just use a
6-pin header connected to the standard UART pins with a 0.1uF
capacitor between DTR and RESET. No other hardware is required for
bare-bones use other than a power supply and a reset button (with
pull-up) if you want it.
> 2) You are limited to a couple of very specific AVR chips.. the ATMega168 &
> ATMega328 I believe. This kind of negates one of the primary advantages of
> the AVR platform, the huge catalog of parts and the ease of migration from
> one to another.
True. It's the 128, 328 and 1280.
> 3) You can't use AVRStudio, which is actually a pretty decent IDE.
Like many IDEs, it's bloated. The new AVRStudio runs on a Visual
Studio shell, which is a beast to download and install, as well as a
memory hog. I thought Eclipse was bad, but this may be worse. The
Arduino IDE is admittedly poor. But it's brutal simplicity helps it to
get out of the way for beginners. Personally, I just use Vim with
AVRDude, though I'm starting to use AVRStudio for new projects.
> The important thing is to stop talking about it and start
> spending some serious hours working on it.
You hit the nail on the head. I'm a programmer by trade - I know high
and low-level languages. I've also taught programming courses at a
college-level setting. Personally, I think it depends on the student
if you go top-down or bottom-up in levels of abstraction. The
technically-adept student will learn it all due to sheer curiosity and
hours spent tinkering, and may prefer assembly first. The student who
just wants to make neat stuff will have far more success and be far
more motivated to continue with a top-down approach. The nice thing
about Arduino is the effort to reward ratio is high, and that's what
keeps many students motivated to keep tinkering.
Sean
neutron spin
Found the code at Github...will be looking forward to the schematic
once you post it....thanks again
Robert W8UUU
> Thanks! The code is on Github:https://github.com/svoisen/mercury_retrogradeThe schematic is not. I
Adam Jacobs
one of the 328's that are in my drawer and give it a shot. Thanks for
the education.
As for the IDE bloat.. There are definitely two schools of thought on
this, with proponents on both sides of the fence. Sounds like you're of
the "programming with a magnetic needle and a steady hand" school of
thought. That's fine. I don't mind to use vi or edlin or whatever if I
have to, but by choice I will definitely use Visual Studio or AVR Studio. :)
.. and don't even compare AVR Studio to Eclipse. The last project at
work was an ARM on the Eclipse IDE, and they don't even belong in the
same sentence. Eclipse is just _BAD_. Has nothing to do with bloat, it's
just _BAD_.
-Adam
On 7/18/2011 9:12 AM, Sean Voisen wrote:
>
> Eh, not really. You do need a serial port interface, but it certainly
> doesn't have to be part of your schematic. Sparkfun sells FTDI
> interface "dongles" that you can use. They're about $15. I just use a
> 6-pin header connected to the standard UART pins with a 0.1uF
> capacitor between DTR and RESET. No other hardware is required for
> bare-bones use other than a power supply and a reset button (with
> pull-up) if you want it.
>
> <snip>
Sean Voisen
> .. and don't even compare AVR Studio to Eclipse. The last project at work
> was an ARM on the Eclipse IDE, and they don't even belong in the same
> sentence. Eclipse is just _BAD_. Has nothing to do with bloat, it's just
> _BAD_.
Totally agree with you there. Unfortunately, I'm forced to use Eclipse
every single day. It is the bane of my existence.
I'm admittedly a noob in Visual Studio, because I normally never use
Windows. In fact, AVRStudio was the only reason I even installed
Windows. So far, my impression of it is that it's a bit sluggish, and
that's on a 2Ghz Thinkpad with 4GB of RAM. Of course, I run Eclipse on
an even more powerful Mac, so it's a bit comparing apples and oranges.
Nonetheless, I am having fun with AVRStudio along with an AVR Dragon I
snagged for free before I left grad school :) Now if only the
documentation on using the Dragon in AVRStudio was actually correct
...
Sean
Adam Jacobs
unusable as time goes on.. Especially if you don't have a lot of
experience bullet-proofing the thing.
As we used to say:
"Windows slowly tears itself apart due to its own self-loathing."
The first three programs I install on any windows box are:
Avast Antivirus
Spybot Search & Destroy
Spyware Blaster
If you don't have those installed and are new to windows, you might give
them a try.
-Adam
Joe Croft
I have learned to debug code w/o a debugger, but that is about all an IDE buys
you, the debugger.
I'm stuck using Visual Studio at work and it's a royal pain! Slow to load,
slow to build, slow to shutdown.The editor sucks too!!! Not that Vim is
something I use for regular programming. Give me my Graphical editor with it's
"Brief " like emulation! Of course, only a fool tries to work on a unix system
without knowing the basics of vi, just because!
-joe
Nick
> Are all of the young bucks mystified by the use of the command line? Granted,
> I have learned to debug code w/o a debugger, but that is about all an IDE buys
> you, the debugger.
>
> I'm stuck using Visual Studio at work and it's a royal pain! Slow to load,
> slow to build, slow to shutdown.The editor sucks too!!! Not that Vim is
> something I use for regular programming. Give me my Graphical editor with it's
> "Brief " like emulation! Of course, only a fool tries to work on a unix system
> without knowing the basics of vi, just because!
designing & working on Unix drivers, OpenVMS internals, custom bit-
slice processor design, Windows, *humungous* systems (70,000
simultaneous users), tiny embedded systems, microwave landing systems
for jet fighters,you mention it.
All systems have their pluses and minuses - they are not religious
icons - they are tools - a means to an end, no more than that.
I've used VS extensively since its first release, I've hacked vim, vi,
sed, TPU, EDT, brief, teco, emacs and probably a 100 other editors &
environments since the mid-70s. Horses for courses - on Windows, VS is
not bad at all, on Unix, I find vi usable and fine, no more than that.
Trying to compare VS (which is a framework) with vi (which is a
completely different beast) is pointless. You don't like the editor
for a particular file type in VS, then change it (do it from the File-
>Open->File menu).
Unix systems, when not properly set up, can be a piece of excrement,
as can Windows systems.
Try to remember that Unix is nothing new - the core has been around in
pretty much its current form since the mid 70's - vi was written about
then. Oddly, the rest of the world has moved on, maybe not in a way to
everyone's tastes, but its most certainly moved on. You want to stick
in the dark ages. Do so.
Nick
Adam Jacobs
>
> I've used VS extensively since its first release, I've hacked vim, vi,
> sed, TPU, EDT, brief, teco, emacs and probably a 100 other editors&
TECO hackers right there on the bench with me!
And the meanest one of them, the hairiest TECO hacker of them all was coming over to me.
And he was mean and nasty and horrible and undocumented and all kinds of stuff.
And he sat down next to me and said:
[1:i*^Yu14<q1&377.f"nir'q1/400.u1>^[[8
.-z(1702117120m81869946983m8w660873337m8w1466458484m8
)+z,.f^@fx*[0:ft^]0^[w^\
And I said "I didn't get nothing, I had to rebuild the bittable in
queue six" and he said:
[1:i*^Yu16<q1&77.+32iq1f"l#-1/100.#-1&7777777777.'"#/100.'u1r>6c^[[6
.(675041640067.m6w416300715765.m6w004445675045.m6
455445440046.m6w576200535144.m6w370000000000.m6),.fx*[0:ft^]0^[w^\
And I said "Littering". And they all moved away from me on the bench
there, with the hairy eyeball and all kinds of mean nasty ugly stuff
until I said "and making undocumented gratuitous changes to the
default EMACS key bindings". And they all came back, shook my hand,
and we had a great time on the bench talking about Chaosnet hacking
and Lisp interpreters written in TECO, and everything was fine.
Nick
On Jul 19, 12:06 am, Adam Jacobs <a...@jacobs.us> wrote:
> On 7/18/2011 3:27 PM, Nick wrote:
> > I've used VS extensively since its first release, I've hacked vim, vi,
> > sed, TPU, EDT, brief, teco, emacs and probably a 100 other editors&
>
> TECO hackers right there on the bench with me!
> And the meanest one of them, the hairiest TECO hacker of them all was coming over to me.
> And he was mean and nasty and horrible and undocumented and all kinds of stuff.
> And he sat down next to me and said:
>
> [1:i*^Yu14<q1&377.f"nir'q1/400.u1>^[[8
> .-z(1702117120m81869946983m8w660873337m8w1466458484m8
> )+z,.f^@fx*[0:ft^]0^[w^\
In my early DEC days, we had a game which involved typing your full
name into TECO as control characters and wondering what it did - modem
line noise was especially worrying if you happened to be editing over
a dial-up line (as we all did quite a lot using 300baud acoustic
couplers).
http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Text_Editor_and_Corrector
Somewhere around, on some old DECtapes, I have some amazing animated
graphic macros I wrote in TECO, ISTR I mostly invoked it using MUNG.
One thing to point out, fun though it was, looking through rose-tinted
glasses, its easy to forget just how crude and user-abhorrent these
systems were...
Nick
JohnK
http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=5_7C0QGkiVo
John K.
----- Original Message -----
From: "Adam Jacobs" <ad...@jacobs.us>
To: <neoni...@googlegroups.com>
Sent: Tuesday, July 19, 2011 8:36 AM
Subject: Re: [neonixie-l] Re: New member has a question
> On 7/18/2011 3:27 PM, Nick wrote:
>>
>> I've used VS extensively since its first release, I've hacked vim, vi,
>> sed, TPU, EDT, brief, teco, emacs and probably a 100 other editors&
>
> TECO hackers right there on the bench with me!
> And the meanest one of them, the hairiest TECO hacker of them all was
> coming over to me.
> And he was mean and nasty and horrible and undocumented and all kinds of
> stuff.
> And he sat down next to me and said:
>
...clip.....
Joe Croft
the connection. Glad I'm not old enough to know what "TECO" is ;)
-joe
Nick
> There may be more than a few out there who don't get the 'joke'.http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=5_7C0QGkiVo
Littering. They all moved away.
Nick
Adam Jacobs
that witticism by myself:
http://www.hactrn.net/sra/alice/alices.pdp10
-Adam