Cambridge is killing Tommy's Pizza
Daniel Salomon
Mount Auburn Street in Harvard Square transferred ownership a few
months ago, the new owner had to apply for a new restaurant license
from the city. A nearby neighbor complained to the Cambridge License
Commission about noisy students (which she decided were entirely the
fault of the pizza place), and the Commission refused to grant a 3
A.M. license to Tommy's like the former owner had. Now that Tommy's
is forced to close at 2 A.M., the new owner says that sales are down
by 15 percent.
See http://www.thecrimson.com/article.aspx?ref=121813 for the details.
IMO Tommy's is one of the few reasons to go to Harvard Square these
days. It's unbelievable that Cambridge is forcing them to close
earlier when the 20,000 students who live nearby enjoy eating pizza
late at night. When Harvard Square lost the 24-hour Tasty, everyone
said that it was in the name of economic progress, but in this case
Cambridge is destroying a valuable institution that would otherwise be
doing very well.
I'm going to email all of the city council candidates I can to see if
they support small businesses who want to provide desired services,
especially late at night.
Other cities that pull this kind of nonsense are Somerville, which
makes the Davis Square Store 24 close at the ridiculous hour of
midnight, and Brookline, which makes the Store 24 on Beacon Street
west of Collidge Corner close at 2 A.M.
-Dan
Ron Newman
<2261f53b.01102...@posting.google.com>, danielk...@my-deja.com
stated...
>Other cities that pull this kind of nonsense are Somerville, which
>makes the Davis Square Store 24 close at the ridiculous hour of
>midnight
I live in Davis Square, and while I'd like the convenience of a
true Store 24, I also understand why the city makes it close
at midnight. The store is on the first floor of a building that is
otherwise residential, and the people living above the store would
like some peace and quiet so they can sleep. The noise isn't so
much from the store, as from the people constantly pulling into
and out of the parking lot, which the upstairs apartments overlook.
--
Ron Newman rne...@thecia.net
http://www2.thecia.net/users/rnewman/home.html
Daniel Salomon
> danielk...@my-deja.com stated...
> >Other cities that pull this kind of nonsense are Somerville, which
> >makes the Davis Square Store 24 close at the ridiculous hour of
> >midnight
>
> I live in Davis Square, and while I'd like the convenience of a
> true Store 24, I also understand why the city makes it close
> at midnight. The store is on the first floor of a building that is
> otherwise residential, and the people living above the store would
> like some peace and quiet so they can sleep. The noise isn't so
> much from the store, as from the people constantly pulling into
> and out of the parking lot, which the upstairs apartments overlook.
Davis Square is a mixed-use urban area. People who are thinking about
moving into an apartment above a retail store should make a conscious
decision if they want to lose some quiet in exchange for lower rent
and the extreme convenience of having a store in their building.
If cities want to continue to be viable places to live without a car,
they can't forbid the services that people have come to expect from
locating in mixed-use areas. While I don't have a problem with biking
to the Porter Star Market at 3 A.M., it isn't fair to prevent people
who can't or aren't willing to do so from having access to a
late-night convenience store.
I can think of one East Coast city (which shall remain nameless for
now) that has plenty of very desirable real estate directly above a
multitude of 24-hour grocery stores, convenience stores, delis, and
pharmacies. And while these establishments might not have parking
lots, they do receive overnight truck deliveries. If the parking lot
is the issue with the Davis Store 24, why can't the parking lot be
chained off at midnight but the store kept open? It should be easy
enough to park at a meter during those hours.
-Dan
Ron Newman
<2261f53b.01102...@posting.google.com>, danielk...@my-deja.com
>If the parking lot
>is the issue with the Davis Store 24, why can't the parking lot be
>chained off at midnight but the store kept open? It should be easy
>enough to park at a meter during those hours.
That's an interesting idea, and I'm surprised nobody suggested it
when the controversy first arose (years before I ever moved to
Davis Square). It does raise the question of whether the store
would be willing to operate with a closed parking lot between
midnight and 6 am.
By the way, the White Hen Pantry at Mass. Ave. and Day Street,
2 blocks from Davis Square, is open 24 hours and is quite busy.
It has a parking lot, but is a free-standing building with nobody
living above the store.
Andrew Tannenbaum
IANAL. Sorry this is off the topic of food.
There are laws that govern noise, e.g. in Boston, we have:
http://www.nonoise.org/lawlib/states/mass/mass.htm
http://www.nonoise.org/lawlib/cities/boston.htm
I believe that there are other laws that protect renters in
particular, these are just general noise laws.
Noise laws specify, and common sense dictates, that people have the
right to quiet enjoyment of their homes, and that noises shouldn't
stray from the ambient sound level more than a certain amount. These
laws also specify that a noise level that may be ok in the daytime is
not ok at night.
It is often true that situations change that may change noise levels.
A new business may be noiser than an old one - a warehouse moves out,
a night club moves in. Or someone might buy a new piece of equipment
or replace an old one, and the new one may be noisier. This can be
very irritating - this I know from first-hand experience. I think
it's reasonable for a person who moves into their home to expect the
noise levels to not violate the noise laws, and to not change from
quiet to noisy.
For those of you who disagree, I suggest contemplating an endless
string of sleepless nights.
Andy
<<>><<>><<>><<>><<>><<>><<>><<>><<>><<>><<>><<>><<>><<>><<>>
In article <ahabtt8u152vqtloa...@4ax.com>,
Adam Kippes <adam....@pobox.com> wrote:
In <9r22a...@drn.newsguy.com>, Ron Newman wrote:
> The store is on the first floor of a building that is
> otherwise residential, and the people living above the store would
> like some peace and quiet so they can sleep.
Then why did they rent those apartments? They remind me of the people
who buy a house next to an airport and then complain about the noise.
-- AK
--
adam....@pobox.com
PGP keys available from servers
bicker
Salomon) wrote:
> Now that Tommy's
> is forced to close at 2 A.M., the new owner says that sales are down
> by 15 percent.
If a pizza place does 15% of its business between 2am and 3am, then I
think the neighbor's complaints about the disturbance the pizza place
causes arewell-founded.
--
¤bicker¤ http://brianandrobbie.com
Please donate your tax rebate to the Red Cross.
Boycott Jerry Falwell for his hate-speech.
Copyright © 2001, Brian Charles Kohn. All Rights Reserved.
Posting in no way grants receivers any privileges, rights,
or licenses, with the exception of quoting in reply as long
as such use complies with US Law concerning Fair Use.
(This has nothing to do with regular USENET quoting and replies.)
Daniel Salomon
> IANAL. Sorry this is off the topic of food.
>
> There are laws that govern noise, e.g. in Boston, we have:
>
> http://www.nonoise.org/lawlib/states/mass/mass.htm
> http://www.nonoise.org/lawlib/cities/boston.htm
> right to quiet enjoyment of their homes, and that noises shouldn't
> stray from the ambient sound level more than a certain amount. These
> laws also specify that a noise level that may be ok in the daytime is
> not ok at night.
I also ANAL, and the only relevant things I see in those laws is that
it's illegal for any person to make a noise above 50 dB between 11 pm
and 7 am, above 70 dB at all other times, or above 50 dB as measured
at a residential lot line.
I totally agree that loud noises such as unnecessary yelling or loud
car auido systems should be illegal, and people who create such noises
should be ticketed. But that doesn't mean that 24-hour businesses
should be banned by the city.
In old-style urban neighborhoods, virtually all areas are residential
including places where stores are. In fact mixed-use or residential
areas are the best places for stores to locate from a convenience
standpoint. This is especially important for people without cars.
City councils shouldn't allow a few vocal people to ruin everyone
else's quality of life. That statement is deliberately ambiguous, and
I intend to convey both meanings.
-Dan
Ron Newman
adam....@pobox.com wrote:
> But if someone moved in knowing there was a 24-hour store beneath
> them, I don't see where they have any grounds for bitching.
The store has been restricted to 18 hours for as long as I've lived
in Davis Square -- over nine years now.
Given the high turnover of apartments in this neighborhood, I suspect
most or all of the residents of the units above the store are used
to having it close at midnight, and rented with the expectation that
it would close at midnight.
If you were one of these people, and Somerville suddenly decided now to
allow the store and parking lot to open 24 hours a day, wouldn't you
be a little upset?
bicker
<adam....@pobox.com> wrote:
> In <3bf0d7d8...@news2.beaconwoods.org>, bicker wrote:
> > If a pizza place does 15% of its business between 2am and 3am, then I
> > think the neighbor's complaints about the disturbance the pizza place
> > causes arewell-founded.
> Sunday mornings after the bars and clubs close.
Thanks for the confirmation.
Daniel Salomon
> danielk...@my-deja.com (Daniel Salomon) wrote:
> > Now that Tommy's
> > is forced to close at 2 A.M., the new owner says that sales are down
> > by 15 percent.
>
> If a pizza place does 15% of its business between 2am and 3am, then I
> think the neighbor's complaints about the disturbance the pizza place
> causes arewell-founded.
I wonder if the complainant ever considered the fact that she lives in
a building surrounded by college dorms for several blocks, that having
loud college students in the street instead of inside a pizza place
makes things worse and not better, and that plenty of quiet people
enjoy eating pizza late at night.
IMO it's none of Cambridge's business how late a business stays open,
and it's especially bad that they shortened the hours just because
procedure required the new owner to apply for another restaurant
license.
My real fear is that with this dropoff in sales, Tommy's might not be
profitable any more, and the Square would lose one of the few
remaining businesses that caters to students.
-Dan
Ron Newman
<2261f53b.01102...@posting.google.com>, danielk...@my-deja.com
stated...
>IMO it's none of Cambridge's business how late a business stays open,
Leaving aside the Davis Square Store 24, Somerville used to have
a few convenience stores in other areas that stayed open 24 hours.
They were repeatedly robbed during the wee hours of the morning, and
I think the city may have put pressure on these businesses to
close at midnight instead of generating weekly police calls.
--
Ron Newman rne...@thecia.net
http://www2.thecia.net/users/rnewman/home.html
Daniel Salomon
> Leaving aside the Davis Square Store 24, Somerville used to have
> a few convenience stores in other areas that stayed open 24 hours.
>
> They were repeatedly robbed during the wee hours of the morning, and
> I think the city may have put pressure on these businesses to
> close at midnight instead of generating weekly police calls.
Really? That's the most ridiculous reason for a city to force a store
to close early that I've ever heard. If the police can't do their job
to protect the store they'll just close the store down? Talk about
blaming the victim...
-Dan
Charles Demas
Ron Newman <rne...@thecia.net> wrote:
>On 24 Oct 2001 13:28:58 -0700, in article
><2261f53b.01102...@posting.google.com>, danielk...@my-deja.com
>stated...
>
>>IMO it's none of Cambridge's business how late a business stays open,
>
>Leaving aside the Davis Square Store 24, Somerville used to have
>a few convenience stores in other areas that stayed open 24 hours.
>
>They were repeatedly robbed during the wee hours of the morning, and
>I think the city may have put pressure on these businesses to
>close at midnight instead of generating weekly police calls.
The obvious solution is for the stores to offer free coffee and
donuts to police during those hours. :-)
In fact, when my family ran it's restaurant in Springfield, any
police officer in uniform got free coffee.
Chuck Demas
--
Eat Healthy | _ _ | Nothing would be done at all,
Stay Fit | @ @ | If a man waited to do it so well,
Die Anyway | v | That no one could find fault with it.
de...@tiac.net | \___/ | http://www.tiac.net/users/demas
Betsy Schwartz
> If a pizza place does 15% of its business between 2am and 3am, then I
> think the neighbor's complaints about the disturbance the pizza place
> causes arewell-founded.
Mmm, well, I wonder, who was there first? Tommy's pizza has been there for
a very long time, and it's in a small but busy strip surrounded by college
dorms. I wonder why anyone who minds nightlife noise would move to this
particular block?
bicker
Salomon) wrote:
> bicker <use...@brianandrobbie.com.1NVAL1D> wrote:
> > danielk...@my-deja.com (Daniel Salomon) wrote:
> > > Now that Tommy's
> > > is forced to close at 2 A.M., the new owner says that sales are down
> > > by 15 percent.
> > If a pizza place does 15% of its business between 2am and 3am, then I
> > think the neighbor's complaints about the disturbance the pizza place
> > causes arewell-founded.
> I wonder if the complainant ever considered the fact that she lives in
> a building surrounded by college dorms for several blocks, that having
> loud college students in the street instead of inside a pizza place
> makes things worse and not better, and that plenty of quiet people
> enjoy eating pizza late at night.
Since there wouldn't be much reason for the college students to be in
the street if the pizza place was closed, that's rather academic
(pardon the pun). Also, if they're in the street, the police can take
appropriate action.
> IMO it's none of Cambridge's business how late a business stays open,
> and it's especially bad that they shortened the hours just because
> procedure required the new owner to apply for another restaurant
> license.
The whole point of licensing is so the people of the city retain the
power to decide how businesses in the city operate.
Nina H. Yuan
Well, it used to be Tommy's Lunch; did it change ownership when it became
Tommy's Pizza (in, um, 1995 or so?)
Agreed, I'd imagine anyone who lives in Harvard Square who's not a student
does so *for* the nightlife rather than in spite of it...
-nhy
--
----------------------------------------------------------------------------
Nina H. Yuan n...@panix.com
Education is a progressive discovery of our own ignorance. -- Will Durant
----------------------------------------------------------------------------
Pete from Boston
> On 22 Oct 2001 12:54:02 -0700, danielk...@my-deja.com (Daniel
> Salomon) wrote:
> > Now that Tommy's
> > is forced to close at 2 A.M., the new owner says that sales are down
> > by 15 percent.
>
> If a pizza place does 15% of its business between 2am and 3am, then I
> think the neighbor's complaints about the disturbance the pizza place
> causes arewell-founded.
My $.02:
There are busy late-night and all-night places in cities all over the
country that do steady business and manage to coexist with the
community. Greater Boston, as far as I can tell, either doesn't
realize this or doesn't care, and is hell-bent on keeping as little
open at night as possible. Now, that's fine and good, but this area
has more of the demographic looking to go spend its dollars in the
middle of the night -- college students -- than just about any other.
Forcibly denying them the opportunity is an undue restraint on the
area's ability to take full advantage of one of its biggest industries
-- education.
Besides, it makes this city downright dull.
For crissakes, even freakin' PITTSBURGH has a 24-hour laundromat.
bicker
wrote:
> bicker <use...@brianandrobbie.com.1NVAL1D> writes:
> > If a pizza place does 15% of its business between 2am and 3am, then I
> > think the neighbor's complaints about the disturbance the pizza place
> > causes arewell-founded.
> Mmm, well, I wonder, who was there first?
Strange, but I couldn't care less about that.
David Chesler
> Mmm, well, I wonder, who was there first? Tommy's pizza has been there for
> a very long time
Tommy's Pizza has been there about 10 years.
It shares nothing but name and location with Tommy's Lunch (Tommy
Stefanian, proprietor), which was there for about 30 years prior.
In the 1980s it closed as late as 4am on weekends. I've seen
evidence in Adams House yearbooks from the 1950s that the space
was formerly occupied by another greasy spoon.
(At times Tommy's Pizza was claiming "New York Pizza" -- the
pizza had as much to do with New York as the place did with
Tommy Stefanian.")
Three doors down is the Pi Eta Club, Harvard's rowdiest Final
Club; across Plympton Street is the Lampoon, which at least
during the years it was receiving royalties from Animal House
was very loud and conspicuous in its consumption. So I agree
that one should expect nightlife there.
--
- David Chesler <che...@post.harvard.edu>
http://www.geocities.com/chesler.geo/
Sent through my Mediaone cable modem account
Daniel Salomon
Tommy's's hours to 3 am. Then after the official public comment
period was over but before the License Commission had made its
decision, about 80 people, most of them Harvard students, left voice
mails at the License Commission in suport of re-extending the hours.
The Commission denied the extension. See
http://www.thecrimson.com/article.aspx?ref=121910 .
David Chesler <che...@post.harvard.edu> wrote:
> Tommy's Pizza has been there about 10 years.
>
> It shares nothing but name and location with Tommy's Lunch (Tommy
> Stefanian, proprietor), which was there for about 30 years prior.
> In the 1980s it closed as late as 4am on weekends.
What did Tommy's Lunch serve?
> I've seen
> evidence in Adams House yearbooks from the 1950s that the space
> was formerly occupied by another greasy spoon.
Not that I think it matters, but the person who organized the people
complaing about the noise has lived next door for about 30 years.
> Three doors down is the Pi Eta Club, Harvard's rowdiest Final
> Club;
The Pi Eta Club hasn't existed for at least 6 years. A startup
Harvard Fraternity, Sigma Chi, now occupies a building on the
northwest corner of Mt. Auburn and DeWolfe Streets that was most
likely the former Pi Eta building. (The former former location of the
Pi Eta Club on Winthrop Street is the former location of Grendel's and
the current location of some kind of live-action theater, with
Grendel's Den (the bar part) in the basement.)
> across Plympton Street is the Lampoon, which at least
> during the years it was receiving royalties from Animal House
> was very loud and conspicuous in its consumption. So I agree
> that one should expect nightlife there.
The whole River House area has students walking around on weekend
nights. Because it's a college campus, not just because of a single
pizza place.
-Dan
David Chesler
> What did Tommy's Lunch serve?
Cheesesteak subs ($2.85)
Frappes
Egg Creams (their egg creams made the Globe once)
Lime Rickeys
Full ice cream/fountain menu
Typical sub/grinder menu
Coffee/Tea
In the morning, morning stuff (eggs, bacon)
Besides the students, the lunch crowd had a number of postal
carriers (who played a lot of pinball -- the pinball setup was
much as it is now [or was at Tommy's Pizza]), the night crowd
had the usual Harvard Square hangers-on (Mel Govinda, whose
bookbindery was in the block at the north end of JFK Street
which Cambridge Savings Bank rebuilt, had a regular table),
Sunday mornings there was an after-church crowd.
Elsie's, up the street at the corner of Holyoke, had somewhat
better press. They did not have ice cream, but did have lemonade.
Their specialty was the Turkey Deluxe: Turkey, bacon, Russian
dressing on a bulkie roll. By the time they closed they had
three storefronts. The corner was tables for relatively quieter
eating; the middle unit was ordering; the next unit was given
over to pinball and video games.
The restaurant next door to Tommy's (darn, I've seen it mentioned
in this newsgroup) was a Thai place (Siam something) from around
1982 until recently.
Pinnochio's, which still exists near Casa Mexico, had a storefront
up near Mass Ave, near what was a barber shop and is now a
Ferrante-Dege back room. There was some controversy, but I
don't recall what about, when they closed in 1980.
(I have a theory that just as some people dress, for the rest
of their lives, in the style that was in vogue when they were
in high school or college, people have an image in their mind
of Harvard Square the way it was when they first saw it, and
they think that THAT is the best of all possible Harvard Squares.
They will bemoan the rapid changes since then, without realizing
that it was rapidly changing before they first saw it as well.)
Father's Six became the Bow & Arrow, and is gone.
The Tasty is gone.
Brigham's is gone.
The Mug & Muffin is gone.
I'll remember the other ice cream parlor, in Brattle Square...
Belgian Fudge -> Emack & Bolio? -> Bagels -> Toscanini
One Potato, Two Potato -> ___ Street, when that block was rebuilt
Some famous cafeteria was torn down to make Holyoke Center
Been there at least 20 years:
Hong Kong
Bartley Burger
Yen Ching
Young & Yee
(and Leavitt & Pierce, Gnomon, and surprises me, Serendipity,
Mimi's Corner)
One of these days I have to finish scanning all the then-and-now
pictures for http://www.geocities.com/chesler.geo/harvard_square/
> The whole River House area has students walking around on weekend
> nights. Because it's a college campus, not just because of a single
> pizza place.
Indeed. And unlike for instance the Hong Kong, Tommy's
mostly attracted (attracts) people who are already there,
students or townies.
Ron Newman
<3BD9D70A...@post.harvard.edu>, David Chesler stated...
> Elsie's, up the street at the corner of Holyoke, had somewhat
>better press.
I miss that place. It wasn't open especially late, though; I think
it closed at midnight or 1 am.
> Brigham's is gone.
> The Mug & Muffin is gone.
> I'll remember the other ice cream parlor, in Brattle Square...
Bailey's. It was a small local chain, found only in Boston, Cambridge,
and a few suburbs like Belmont and Wellesley. Bertucci's is there
now, owned by the same guy (Joey Crugnale) who bought Bailey's but
couldn't keep it going.
> One Potato, Two Potato -> ___ Street, when that block was rebuilt
Grafton Street
> Some famous cafeteria was torn down to make Holyoke Center
Hayes-Bickford? But that's before my time. (Is the current
Bickford's restaurant chain related to them?)
> Been there at least 20 years:
> Hong Kong
> Bartley Burger
> Yen Ching
> Young & Yee
> (and Leavitt & Pierce, Gnomon, and surprises me, Serendipity,
> Mimi's Corner)
I think you mean Nini's Corner. Out of Town News is still there
too, but has changed owners and slightly changed location during
the past 20 years.
Herrell's Ice Cream has been there at least 20 years as well.
Robert S. Coren
David Chesler <che...@post.harvard.edu> wrote:
>Daniel Salomon wrote:
>> What did Tommy's Lunch serve?
>
> Cheesesteak subs ($2.85)
> Frappes
> Egg Creams (their egg creams made the Globe once)
> Lime Rickeys
> Full ice cream/fountain menu
> Typical sub/grinder menu
> Coffee/Tea
> In the morning, morning stuff (eggs, bacon)
And one of my favorite occasional treats as an undergraduate (my
tastes have changed somewhat since): the peanut butter and bacon
sandwich.
>
> The restaurant next door to Tommy's (darn, I've seen it mentioned
>in this newsgroup) was a Thai place (Siam something) from around
>1982 until recently.
Siam Garden, I think. For a few years before that it was a very
upscale place called, IIRC, Voyagers, which in addition to what I
remember as excellent food had an endearing little custom of placing a
calligraphic card with the name in which the reservation had been made
on the table.
--
---Robert Coren (co...@spdcc.com)--(or try net instead of com)-------
"People in small towns have beliefs the way caves have bats."
--Ursula LeGuin, _Always Coming Home_
jes...@hexdump.org
: The restaurant next door to Tommy's (darn, I've seen it mentioned
: in this newsgroup) was a Thai place (Siam something) from around
: 1982 until recently.
House of Siam. Never went in it tho.
--
Jeff Gentry jes...@hexdump.org gen...@hexdump.org
SEX DRUGS UNIX
Jud Herrman
Uri Guttman
RN> Herrell's Ice Cream has been there at least 20 years as well.
i don't think it has been there that long. steve herrell sold his
steve's chain and couldn't compete for 3 years. he opened the HS store 3
years from that exact date. this was about 15 years ago or so.
he also is keeping his chain very small (HS, allston and a third place
IIRC) so he can control quality personally. no franchising and massive
expansion like before.
speaking of which, anybody heard the brand steve's mentioned anywhere in
years? no store, nothing in the supermarkets, etc. maybe they exist but
outside new england.
uri
--
Uri Guttman --------- u...@sysarch.com ---------- http://www.sysarch.com
SYStems ARCHitecture and Stem Development ------ http://www.stemsystems.com
Search or Offer Perl Jobs -------------------------- http://jobs.perl.org
Mary Malmros
Uri Guttman <u...@sysarch.com> wrote:
>>>>>> "RN" == Ron Newman <rne...@thecia.net> writes:
>
> RN> Herrell's Ice Cream has been there at least 20 years as well.
>
>i don't think it has been there that long. steve herrell sold his
>steve's chain and couldn't compete for 3 years. he opened the HS store 3
>years from that exact date. this was about 15 years ago or so.
>
>he also is keeping his chain very small (HS, allston and a third place
>IIRC) so he can control quality personally. no franchising and massive
>expansion like before.
He never had franchising, much less "massive expansion". He sold
a store and the "Steve's" name and got out of the business; then
some years later decided to get back in. There was some legal
ruckus that was eventually resolved with Joey Crugnale(sp?),
the guy he'd sold out to, getting the "Steve's" name, and
Steve getting "Herrell's".
By the way, the third store is in Northampton, where it has
been for at least 21 years -- which, if your chronology is
correct, would make it the first store and not the third.
--
::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::
Mary Malmros Very Small Being mal...@shore.net
"I would not exchange the sorrows of my heart
for the joys of the multitude"
bicker
wrote:
> bicker <use...@brianandrobbie.com.1NVAL1D> wrote in message news:<3bf0d7d8...@news2.beaconwoods.org>...
> > On 22 Oct 2001 12:54:02 -0700, danielk...@my-deja.com (Daniel
> > Salomon) wrote:
> > > Now that Tommy's
> > > is forced to close at 2 A.M., the new owner says that sales are down
> > > by 15 percent.
> > If a pizza place does 15% of its business between 2am and 3am, then I
> > think the neighbor's complaints about the disturbance the pizza place
> > causes arewell-founded.
> country that do steady business and manage to coexist with the
> community. Greater Boston, as far as I can tell, either doesn't
> realize this or doesn't care, and is hell-bent on keeping as little
> open at night as possible.
You're mistaken. This whole thing came up because someone complained
that this late-night place DIDN'T manage to coexist with the
community. If it wasn't causing any disturbance then why would the
resident complain? Are you accusing the resident of pizza-hate?
> Forcibly denying them the opportunity is an undue restraint on the
> area's ability to take full advantage of one of its biggest industries
> -- education.
That's about the biggest load of bull I've read today.
jes...@hexdump.org
: community. If it wasn't causing any disturbance then why would the
: resident complain? Are you accusing the resident of pizza-hate?
No.
1) Of being a wussy
2) Of intentionally living in a mixed-use area which they know is going
to get noise.
Look, I live just off of Mass Ave, I can see Mass Ave from my (open) bedroom
window. In the heart of Central Sq. Come 2:15 or so on every weekend night,
there's always a loud ruckus to be had out there. Do I complain that the
bars should be closing earlier? No. Why? Because neither 1 nor 2 apply to
me.
bicker
Kozierok) wrote:
> In article <3bec9b06....@news2.beaconwoods.org>,
> bicker <use...@brianandrobbie.com.1NVAL1D> wrote:
> } You're mistaken. This whole thing came up because someone complained
> } that this late-night place DIDN'T manage to coexist with the
> } community. If it wasn't causing any disturbance then why would the
> } resident complain? Are you accusing the resident of pizza-hate?
> define a community?
What makes you think only one resident was unhappy with the situation?
The responsibility of the city is to listen to all residents and then
make the best choice for all the residents.
> Where I used to live there was a church about a half-mile away that rang
> its bells at 8 am every Sunday, sometimes waking me up. I figured it
> probably bothered a few other people too but I could live with it, and
> beside, they were there before I was. Should I have the "right" to make
> the church stop ringing its bells because they were not "coexisting"
> with me?
I believe church bells are protected.
jes...@hexdump.org
: I believe church bells are protected.
What about the construction guys behind my house who start bright & early
at 7am?
Uri Guttman
MM> In article <x7snc5z...@home.sysarch.com>,
MM> Uri Guttman <u...@sysarch.com> wrote:
>>>>>>> "RN" == Ron Newman <rne...@thecia.net> writes:
>>
RN> Herrell's Ice Cream has been there at least 20 years as well.
>>
>> i don't think it has been there that long. steve herrell sold his
>> steve's chain and couldn't compete for 3 years. he opened the HS store 3
>> years from that exact date. this was about 15 years ago or so.
>>
>> he also is keeping his chain very small (HS, allston and a third place
>> IIRC) so he can control quality personally. no franchising and massive
>> expansion like before.
MM> He never had franchising, much less "massive expansion". He sold
MM> a store and the "Steve's" name and got out of the business; then
MM> some years later decided to get back in. There was some legal
MM> ruckus that was eventually resolved with Joey Crugnale(sp?),
MM> the guy he'd sold out to, getting the "Steve's" name, and
MM> Steve getting "Herrell's".
having steve's in many stores was massive expansion. the name was bought
because of its recognition as the first famous high end ice cream brand
around here. there were more stores after the buyout as well. but since
it was a corporate environment, they folded. herrell's is a private
small chain with direct control by steve so he can do what he pleases
and not grow beyond his limits or interests.
MM> By the way, the third store is in Northampton, where it has
MM> been for at least 21 years -- which, if your chronology is
MM> correct, would make it the first store and not the third.
i have no direct way to verify any of the dates. i just rely on my
faulty memory. :)
bicker
Kozierok) wrote:
> In article <3bffb013....@news2.beaconwoods.org>,
> bicker <use...@brianandrobbie.com.1NVAL1D> wrote:
> } What makes you think only one resident was unhappy with the situation?
> } The responsibility of the city is to listen to all residents and then
> } make the best choice for all the residents.
> complained, and 80 had voiced a choice in the other direction.
> In typical Cambridge fashion, the city did whatever it pleased.
In other words, they evaluated the relative merits of the situation,
and gave more weight to the point-of-view of the three than they did
to the point-of-view of the 80. I would very closely at the
composition of the 80 and you'll probably readily realize why their
point-of-view was given so little weight.
> } > Where I used to live there was a church about a half-mile away that rang
> } > its bells at 8 am every Sunday, sometimes waking me up. I figured it
> } > probably bothered a few other people too but I could live with it, and
> } > beside, they were there before I was. Should I have the "right" to make
> } > the church stop ringing its bells because they were not "coexisting"
> } > with me?
> } I believe church bells are protected.
> It doesn't matter, because I didn't try to do anything about it. That's
> the point.
It does matter. You can choose not to complain if you wish
(especially if what bothers you is something Constitutionally
protected), but don't think that that obligates others to comply with
your sensibilities.
bicker
> bicker <use...@brianandrobbie.com.1nval1d> wrote:
> : community. If it wasn't causing any disturbance then why would the
> : resident complain? Are you accusing the resident of pizza-hate?
> No.
> 1) Of being a wussy
How juvenile.
> 2) Of intentionally living in a mixed-use area which they know is going
> to get noise.
That's not even an accusation.
> Look, I live just off of Mass Ave, I can see Mass Ave from my (open) bedroom
> window. In the heart of Central Sq. Come 2:15 or so on every weekend night,
> there's always a loud ruckus to be had out there. Do I complain that the
> bars should be closing earlier? No. Why? Because neither 1 nor 2 apply to
> me.
Again, you can choose not to complain if you wish, but don't think
that that obligates others to comply with your sensibilities.
jes...@hexdump.org
:> 1) Of being a wussy
: How juvenile.
True, but so is my point.
Really - if one can't deal w/ some noise, why do they live in an urban
environment?
There's a huge difference between being out in hodunk suburbia and an
urban area. Certain amounts of noise and commotion should be expected
at all hours - for *most* people who live in urban areas, it is that 24/7
potential for activity that is a draw.
So yes, people who complain about "normal urban noise levels" are indeed
wussies.
: That's not even an accusation.
Tell me that if you were looking around at an area - saw it ringed by
college dorms, college hang outs, etc - that you wouldn't expect there
to be some late night noise & commotion?
I don't really have much sympathy for people who can't put that 2 and 2
together.
: Again, you can choose not to complain if you wish, but don't think
: that that obligates others to comply with your sensibilities.
Ah, I could yes. But that would just further the thing that keeps Boston
from really pushing forward in the eyes of most of our country. People
I know from all over always ask how could people live here - how the "life"
is dead because everything closes early, the T doesn't run late, there are
the aforementioned silly noise limits on things, everything ends up
catering to the old church marm, etc.
Blah.
Mary Malmros
Uri Guttman <u...@sysarch.com> wrote:
>>>>>> "MM" == Mary Malmros <mal...@nautilus.shore.net> writes:
>
> MM> In article <x7snc5z...@home.sysarch.com>,
> MM> Uri Guttman <u...@sysarch.com> wrote:
> >>>>>>> "RN" == Ron Newman <rne...@thecia.net> writes:
> >>
> RN> Herrell's Ice Cream has been there at least 20 years as well.
> >>
> >> i don't think it has been there that long. steve herrell sold his
> >> steve's chain and couldn't compete for 3 years. he opened the HS store 3
> >> years from that exact date. this was about 15 years ago or so.
> >>
> >> he also is keeping his chain very small (HS, allston and a third place
> >> IIRC) so he can control quality personally. no franchising and massive
> >> expansion like before.
>
> MM> He never had franchising, much less "massive expansion". He sold
> MM> a store and the "Steve's" name and got out of the business; then
> MM> some years later decided to get back in. There was some legal
> MM> ruckus that was eventually resolved with Joey Crugnale(sp?),
> MM> the guy he'd sold out to, getting the "Steve's" name, and
> MM> Steve getting "Herrell's".
>
>having steve's in many stores was massive expansion.
Right, but not by Steve Herrell.
Mary Malmros
bicker <use...@brianandrobbie.com.1NVAL1D> wrote:
>On Sat, 27 Oct 2001 13:24:31 GMT, ix...@PCGuide.com (Charles M.
>Kozierok) wrote:
>> In article <3bffb013....@news2.beaconwoods.org>,
>> bicker <use...@brianandrobbie.com.1NVAL1D> wrote:
>> } What makes you think only one resident was unhappy with the situation?
>> } The responsibility of the city is to listen to all residents and then
>> } make the best choice for all the residents.
>> Yesterday Daniel said that a whopping total of three people had
>> complained, and 80 had voiced a choice in the other direction.
>> In typical Cambridge fashion, the city did whatever it pleased.
>
>In other words, they evaluated the relative merits of the situation,
>and gave more weight to the point-of-view of the three than they did
>to the point-of-view of the 80. I would very closely at the
>composition of the 80 and you'll probably readily realize why their
>point-of-view was given so little weight.
Grubby students vs. honest tax-paying law-abiding right-thinking
folk? ;-)
Clearly it's not a simple equation. The rights of the 80 vs.
the rights of the three can't be decided by simple arithmetic.
When rights are in conflict, the number affected on each side
is a factor, but not the only factor. I might manage to
find three dozen people who are in favor of hearing me play
"Alexander's Ragtime Band" on the sousaphone outside your
house at 3 AM, and only you, your wife, and your 2.5 children
to oppose it, for example.
Mary Malmros
bicker <use...@brianandrobbie.com.1NVAL1D> wrote:
>On Sat, 27 Oct 2001 12:56:17 GMT, jes...@hexdump.org wrote:
>> bicker <use...@brianandrobbie.com.1nval1d> wrote:
>> : community. If it wasn't causing any disturbance then why would the
>> : resident complain? Are you accusing the resident of pizza-hate?
>> No.
>> 1) Of being a wussy
>
>How juvenile.
>
>> 2) Of intentionally living in a mixed-use area which they know is going
>> to get noise.
>
>That's not even an accusation.
>
>> Look, I live just off of Mass Ave, I can see Mass Ave from my (open) bedroom
>> window. In the heart of Central Sq. Come 2:15 or so on every weekend night,
>> there's always a loud ruckus to be had out there. Do I complain that the
>> bars should be closing earlier? No. Why? Because neither 1 nor 2 apply to
>> me.
>
>Again, you can choose not to complain if you wish, but don't think
>that that obligates others to comply with your sensibilities.
Brian, I gotta ask a question here. Where do you draw the line?
You have to draw it somewhere. A few months back, some people
who moved to Amherst from God knows where (but it was probably
Boston, New York, or Connecticut) started bitchin' and moanin'
about noise from the sawmill next door. Now, Amherst, despite
what some people on this newsgroup think, is pretty rural,
and the sawmill had been there since way back when. Should
they have had to shut down? And if so, would they then
not being "[obligated]...to comply with your sensibilities"?
Puester
>
> : Again, you can choose not to complain if you wish, but don't think
> : that that obligates others to comply with your sensibilities.
>
> Ah, I could yes. But that would just further the thing that keeps Boston
> from really pushing forward in the eyes of most of our country. People
> I know from all over always ask how could people live here - how the "life"
> is dead because everything closes early, the T doesn't run late, there are
> the aforementioned silly noise limits on things, everything ends up
> catering to the old church marm, etc.
It's called "saving tradition" and if it didn't happen Boston would be just
another one of those faceless, soulless, franchised-to-death cities you see
all across the country.
"If it's Tuesday it must be St. Louis."
gloria p
jes...@hexdump.org
: It's called "saving tradition" and if it didn't happen Boston would be just
: another one of those faceless, soulless, franchised-to-death cities you see
: all across the country.
I'm not asking for an over-franchisization at all.
I just want things to stay open later.
I want booze to be sold on Sundays in stores.
I want people to not be so concerned about other people's business.
I think it is rediculous that a city that boasts such huge numbers of
young people is one of the cities that least caters to them.
Ed Foster
Puester <pue...@worldnet.att.net> wrote:
From yesterday's Herald, in a column by Cosmo Macero Jr.
"Cambridge - where Tomorrow's leaders are schooled at Harvard
and the nation's geniuses come of age at MIT....Cambridge is
what keeps Boston from being Brockton by the Sea"
jes...@hexdump.org
: I don't think they qualify as a religious organization or whatever it
: is that gives churches their official - and unofficial - protection.
: Maybe they are working on a church?
Naw.
in fact, they're remodeling an apt building to assist in the further
gentrification of central sq.
Uri Guttman
>> having steve's in many stores was massive expansion.
MM> Right, but not by Steve Herrell.
i didn't say he did the expansion. that was the corp who bought his name
and such. and that overexpansion is WHY herrell's is staying small and
personal.
John R Levine
>
>> What about the construction guys behind my house who start bright & early
>> at 7am?
They're allowed to do that, Cambridge has an ordinance that says no
construction noise before 7 AM.
I used to live across the street from South, uh, Cabot House, and when
they were renovating it they started at 7:00 on the dot.
Except for one moron who insisted on loading dumpsters at 5 AM. The
Harvard cops had to arrest him to make him stop.
So where's the good pizza these days? Tommy's was always open late,
but I always thought of it as the kind of pizza that tastes great when
your tastebuds are as exhausted as the rest of you.
--
John R. Levine, IECC, POB 727, Trumansburg NY 14886 +1 607 387 6869
jo...@iecc.com, Village Trustee and Sewer Commissioner, http://iecc.com/johnl,
Member, Provisional board, Coalition Against Unsolicited Commercial E-mail
David Chesler
> So where's the good pizza these days?
New York.
Oh, closer to Harvard than that? Hi-Fi, or closer (within
its sphere of influence) Il Panino, or even closer, Pinnochio.
AFAIK, Three Aces is still around.
> Tommy's was always open late,
> but I always thought of it as the kind of pizza that tastes great when
> your tastebuds are as exhausted as the rest of you.
Pizza being the specialty of the recently departed incarnation,
but not the administration prior to that. About all it had
going for it, IMHO, is that it wasn't Greek pizza.
jes...@hexdump.org
: So where's the good pizza these days? Tommy's was always open late,
: but I always thought of it as the kind of pizza that tastes great when
: your tastebuds are as exhausted as the rest of you.
That and HiFi :)
Not in Cambridge, but I actually like the Big City in Allston, more for
its variety than great quality.
Charles Demas
<jes...@hexdump.org> wrote:
>Puester <pue...@worldnet.att.net> wrote:
>: It's called "saving tradition" and if it didn't happen Boston would be just
>: another one of those faceless, soulless, franchised-to-death cities you see
>: all across the country.
>
>I'm not asking for an over-franchisization at all.
>
>I just want things to stay open later.
>
>I want booze to be sold on Sundays in stores.
Well, it's almost that time of the year, so your wish is granted
starting next Sunday and running though New Years. IIRC. :-)
Chuck Demas
--
Eat Healthy | _ _ | Nothing would be done at all,
Stay Fit | @ @ | If a man waited to do it so well,
Die Anyway | v | That no one could find fault with it.
de...@tiac.net | \___/ | http://www.tiac.net/users/demas
bicker
Malmros) wrote:
> In article <3be4fd93...@news2.beaconwoods.org>,
> bicker <use...@brianandrobbie.com.1NVAL1D> wrote:
> >On Sat, 27 Oct 2001 13:24:31 GMT, ix...@PCGuide.com (Charles M.
> >Kozierok) wrote:
> >> In article <3bffb013....@news2.beaconwoods.org>,
> >> bicker <use...@brianandrobbie.com.1NVAL1D> wrote:
> >> } What makes you think only one resident was unhappy with the situation?
> >> } The responsibility of the city is to listen to all residents and then
> >> } make the best choice for all the residents.
> >> Yesterday Daniel said that a whopping total of three people had
> >> complained, and 80 had voiced a choice in the other direction.
> >> In typical Cambridge fashion, the city did whatever it pleased.
> >In other words, they evaluated the relative merits of the situation,
> >and gave more weight to the point-of-view of the three than they did
> >to the point-of-view of the 80. I would very closely at the
> >composition of the 80 and you'll probably readily realize why their
> >point-of-view was given so little weight.
> the rights of the three can't be decided by simple arithmetic.
Precisely my point.
> When rights are in conflict, the number affected on each side
> is a factor, but not the only factor.
Indeed. Perhaps the most important factors are things like the
negative impact on each side. By comparison, the impacts on the
business-owner and the people who live in the same building are
paramount: The impact on the students is rather negligible by
comparison, especially given the fact that most of them won't be
living there for more than a short span of years. So it basically
comes down to the impact on the pizza place owner vs. the impact on
the people who are disturbed by his business.
bicker
Kozierok) wrote:
> In article <3be4fd93...@news2.beaconwoods.org>,
> bicker <use...@brianandrobbie.com.1NVAL1D> wrote:
> } and gave more weight to the point-of-view of the three than they did
> } to the point-of-view of the 80.
> } I would [look] very closely at the
> } composition of the 80 and you'll probably readily realize why their
> } point-of-view was given so little weight.
> residents of the fine city of Cambridge. The board clearly did not,
> however, "listen to all the residents and then make the best choice for
> all the residents" as you suggested. They just did whatever they felt
> like.
Now you're presuming to say you know their minds? Sorry, that's
rather arrogant. They listened -- you've already made that clear.
What they used to factor into their decisions is likely to be their
personal experience and discretion. There is no question in my mind
(and I wasn't even there) that they made what they feel was the best
choice for all the residents of Cambridge.
If students are feeling under-represented, perhaps they should make a
more significant investment in the community and get some
representation on the city council. There are likely to be rather
significant (even legal) barriers to that, and they're there for sound
reasons. Cities that host schools open their doors, so to speak, to
these students, and I personally feel that they have every right to
protect themselves from some of the negative impacts of the transient
nature of student-residents.
> } > } > Where I used to live there was a church about a half-mile away that rang
> } > } > its bells at 8 am every Sunday, sometimes waking me up. I figured it
> } > } > probably bothered a few other people too but I could live with it, and
> } > } > beside, they were there before I was. Should I have the "right" to make
> } > } > the church stop ringing its bells because they were not "coexisting"
> } > } > with me?
> } > } I believe church bells are protected.
> } > It doesn't matter, because I didn't try to do anything about it. That's
> } > the point.
> } It does matter.
> Not for the point I was making, which was not about whether I had a
> *legal* right to complain about the noise, but rather whether such a
> complaint would be reasonable or fair.
You've missed the point. That's WHY it is legally protected: because
while it is reasonable to expect that you won't be woken up at 8am
Sunday morning by bells from a neighbor, it isn't legal to impose such
a reasonable restriction on a house of worship.
bicker
Malmros) wrote:
> In article <3be6fead...@news2.beaconwoods.org>,
> bicker <use...@brianandrobbie.com.1NVAL1D> wrote:
> >On Sat, 27 Oct 2001 12:56:17 GMT, jes...@hexdump.org wrote:
> >> bicker <use...@brianandrobbie.com.1nval1d> wrote:
> >> : community. If it wasn't causing any disturbance then why would the
> >> : resident complain? Are you accusing the resident of pizza-hate?
> >> No.
> >> 1) Of being a wussy
> >How juvenile.
> >> 2) Of intentionally living in a mixed-use area which they know is going
> >> to get noise.
> >That's not even an accusation.
> >> Look, I live just off of Mass Ave, I can see Mass Ave from my (open) bedroom
> >> window. In the heart of Central Sq. Come 2:15 or so on every weekend night,
> >> there's always a loud ruckus to be had out there. Do I complain that the
> >> bars should be closing earlier? No. Why? Because neither 1 nor 2 apply to
> >> me.
> >Again, you can choose not to complain if you wish, but don't think
> >that that obligates others to comply with your sensibilities.
> Brian, I gotta ask a question here. Where do you draw the line?
> You have to draw it somewhere.
Residential zoning. Here in Burlington that means quiet between 10pm
and 7am. It applies to all human beings and pets, and all
machinations within residences and businesses. The only thing it
doesn't apply to is the interstate highway.
> A few months back, some people
> who moved to Amherst from God knows where (but it was probably
> Boston, New York, or Connecticut) started bitchin' and moanin'
> about noise from the sawmill next door. Now, Amherst, despite
> what some people on this newsgroup think, is pretty rural,
> and the sawmill had been there since way back when. Should
> they have had to shut down? And if so, would they then
> not being "[obligated]...to comply with your sensibilities"?
These aren't "my sensibilities" -- these are the sensibilities of the
community as a whole.
bicker
> bicker <use...@brianandrobbie.com.1nval1d> wrote:
> :> 1) Of being a wussy
> : How juvenile.
> True, but so is my point.
> Really - if one can't deal w/ some noise, why do they live in an urban
> environment?
"Some noise." I suspect that those folks have to deal with "some
noise" and have no problem with it. They're not asking the city to
shut down the road, or ban cars from driving by during the overnight
hours. However, noise from rowdy patrons as an eatery is another
story. Any place which the city has zoned residential, the city
clearly feels it has an obligation to ensure that residents can reside
with some level of assurance that they're be able to get decent sleep
each night.
> There's a huge difference between being out in hodunk suburbia and an
> urban area.
In terms of the need for sleep, no.
> Certain amounts of noise and commotion should be expected
> at all hours - for *most* people who live in urban areas, it is that 24/7
> potential for activity that is a draw.
Evidently, you're wrong.
> So yes, people who complain about "normal urban noise levels" are indeed
> wussies.
No, I think you're just being, as I said, juvenile, imposing standards
on others that aren't reasonable, because those standards support your
own point-of-view.
> : That's not even an accusation.
> Tell me that if you were looking around at an area - saw it ringed by
> college dorms, college hang outs, etc - that you wouldn't expect there
> to be some late night noise & commotion?
> I don't really have much sympathy . . .
That's really the problem.
> : Again, you can choose not to complain if you wish, but don't think
> : that that obligates others to comply with your sensibilities.
> Ah, I could yes. But that would just further the thing that keeps Boston
> from really pushing forward in the eyes of most of our country.
I'm sure that the rest of the country considers Boston a backwater
because it fosters the rights of its residents to get to sleep by 2am
each morning.
> People
> I know from all over always ask how could people live here - how the "life"
> is dead because everything closes early, the T doesn't run late, there are
> the aforementioned silly noise limits on things, everything ends up
> catering to the old church marm, etc.
Get a grip. It sounds to me like these are things that enhances the
quality of life in Boston for most. No city wants to become a
party-school city. We moved AWAY from New York, and so have millions
of others, because of the very things you'd consider strengths there.
Mary Malmros
>: It's called "saving tradition" and if it didn't happen Boston would be just
>: another one of those faceless, soulless, franchised-to-death cities you see
>: all across the country.
>
>I'm not asking for an over-franchisization at all.
>
>I just want things to stay open later.
>
>I want booze to be sold on Sundays in stores.
>
>I want people to not be so concerned about other people's business.
>
>I think it is rediculous that a city that boasts such huge numbers of
>young people is one of the cities that least caters to them.
I'm curious: what's your basis for comparison? I've lived in
Boston and New York, and spent a fair amount of time in San
Francisco, and my impression is the opposite of yours.
Here's another point to consider: are you really talking about
catering to "young people", or catering to a stereotype? I
mean, it sure would be eaiser on the city and its residents
if Boston provided the college kids with cheap crappy restaurants
that served food for the truly indifferent palate (hi-fi
pizza, anyone?) until 4 am, skunky pisswater beer on Sundays,
and a Gap on every corner so they can all dress like
induhviduals...and NOTHING ELSE. What's that you say?
You want it all? I'm sure we'd all like that. But one
of the most important functions of a city administration,
IMO, is to _not_ "cater to" any group, particularly. No
city does a perfect job of it, and I think that Boston and many
other cities often fail to consider the needs of residents
over the wants of visitors; Menino thinks the solution to
every problem can be found in a tourist dollar, and whenever
anybody opposes one of these visitor-oriented initiatives,
they're mocked as a provincial of the sort that keep Boston
from becoming a "world-class city", whatever that would
look like. Maybe it's high time for Boston, and all
cities, to say "sticks and stones" to those who try to
tell them that they'll be a provincial backwater unless
Ye Olde Rancid College Pizza can stay open until 3 AM,
and consider where their interests truly lie.
Mary Malmros
That's actually not 100% clear (I assume you've switched back
to talking about Tommy's Pizza, and not the sawmill in Amherst).
The 3-vs-80 number doesn't tell the whole story, but what has
been said here doesn't make plain just how "the sensibilitiesof the
community as a whole" was determined.
bicker
Kozierok) wrote:
> In article <3be3fbe9...@news2.beaconwoods.org>,
> bicker <use...@brianandrobbie.com.1NVAL1D> wrote:
> } Now you're presuming to say you know their minds? Sorry, that's
> } rather arrogant.
> } They listened -- you've already made that clear.
> } What they used to factor into their decisions is likely to be their
> } personal experience and discretion.
Yes. What you said sounds irresponsible. What I said sounds
responsible.
> } There is no question in my mind
> } (and I wasn't even there) that they made what they feel was the best
> } choice for all the residents of Cambridge.
> } If students are feeling under-represented, perhaps they should make a
> } more significant investment in the community and get some
> } representation on the city council.
> Right, that's the standard pat answer when the interests of many students
> are sacrificed in favor of the interests of a few permanent residents.
> It also happens to be nonsense. I've been a student and seen how this
> discrimination works first-hand.
And, for good reason, this discrimination is not illegal, just like
discriminating against less-qualified job candidates.
> I would not think it reasonable for me to move into
> an area with a church that's been ringing its bells at 8 am on
> Sunday for decades and then say "oh gee, this is noisy, make it
> stop".
Again, if it wasn't a church, and it was a residential neighborhood,
and the bells were being rung at 6am instead of 8am, you'd have every
right to complain and make it stop.
Pete from Boston
> On 25 Oct 2001 09:33:06 -0700, mass...@my-deja.com (Pete from Boston)
> wrote:
> > bicker <use...@brianandrobbie.com.1NVAL1D> wrote in message news:<3bf0d7d8...@news2.beaconwoods.org>...
> > > On 22 Oct 2001 12:54:02 -0700, danielk...@my-deja.com (Daniel
> > > Salomon) wrote:
> > > > Now that Tommy's
> > > > is forced to close at 2 A.M., the new owner says that sales are down
> > > > by 15 percent.
> > > If a pizza place does 15% of its business between 2am and 3am, then I
> > > think the neighbor's complaints about the disturbance the pizza place
> > > causes arewell-founded.
> > There are busy late-night and all-night places in cities all over the
> > country that do steady business and manage to coexist with the
> > community. Greater Boston, as far as I can tell, either doesn't
> > realize this or doesn't care, and is hell-bent on keeping as little
> > open at night as possible.
> You're mistaken. This whole thing came up because someone complained
> that this late-night place DIDN'T manage to coexist with the
> resident complain? Are you accusing the resident of pizza-hate?
No, I'm saying that, knowing nothing else about the situation, I am
suspect of such complaints. I'm not sure the resident doesn't have
unreasonable expectations of life amid a huge student population in an
urban setting, which often seems to be the case when things like this
happen. There are plenty of people who would be happy to live in such
a place knowing full well what to expect.
> > Forcibly denying them the opportunity is an undue restraint on the
> > area's ability to take full advantage of one of its biggest industries
> > -- education.
>
> That's about the biggest load of bull I've read today.
Whatever. To me, it's a glaringly obvious deficiency of this area that
it's the biggest colllege town around, yet has all the late-night life
of... Hartford. To say that there's not money to be made -- and that
that's not an issue in this -- is simply avoiding the obvious. One
need only frequent the few late-night and all-night eateries on
weekends to see the tremendous business oportunities that lie waiting.
I often find this area to be subtlely saying "We'd really all feel a
lot better if you'd just be in bed by nine like a good, decent
person."
Pete from Boston
> On 25 Oct 2001 09:33:06 -0700, mass...@my-deja.com (Pete from Boston)
> wrote:
> > Forcibly denying them the opportunity is an undue restraint on the
> > area's ability to take full advantage of one of its biggest industries
> > -- education.
>
> That's about the biggest load of bull I've read today.
AND, I would add that this isn't limited to students, either. While
working nights around here for two years, I found it baffling that in
a big city, next to nothing caters to late-night people. I know -- I
spent a lot of time searching. There's nothing unique about Boston
that it can't support late-night businesses that other areas can (on
the contrary, it's probably got more people prone to go spend money at
all hours than most cities). So I don't chalk it up to simply the fact
that there's no demand for it.
Mary Malmros
Yeah, but hang on a minute -- not all noise is created equal.
Specifically, some is more avoidable and more manageable
than others. Reasonable people who live near a hospital
or a firehouse expect their sleep to be troubled by
sirens on a frequent basis, and do not complain about it:
the sirens aren't gratuitous, they're part of a necessary,
lifesaving service. Noise made by people congregating on
a street and gassing on at all hours is not in that same
category.
I wonder if Tommy's has made any effort at all to try
and manage this -- if, indeed, this noise is being made
by their patrons. If I owned the place and wanted to
extend my hours, I'd start by putting up signs in
my business asking patrons to not congregate outside
late at night and to be quiet when walking through
the neighborhood, and I'd tell them why I was asking
(i.e., that I wanted to extend hours and wanted to
be able to produce evidence that I'd had some success
at managing noise). It might not work, but failure
to make this kind of effort seems dumb and lazy.
The Old Bear
>From: bicker <use...@brianandrobbie.com.1NVAL1D>
>Newsgroups: ne.food
>Subject: Re: Cambridge is killing Tommy's Pizza
>Date: Sun, 28 Oct 2001 09:25:07 -0500
>
> . . .
>On Sun, 28 Oct 2001, ix...@PCGuide.com (Charles M. Kozierok) wrote:
>> . . .
>> I would not think it reasonable for me to move into
>> an area with a church that's been ringing its bells at 8 am on
>> Sunday for decades and then say "oh gee, this is noisy, make it
>> stop".
>
>Again, if it wasn't a church, and it was a residential neighborhood,
>and the bells were being rung at 6am instead of 8am, you'd have every
>right to complain and make it stop.]
Funny you should mention this...
"And now, this twenty-fourth day of February, A.D. 1877, this
cause came on to be heard on a motion for a special injunction,
and was argued by counsel. Whereupon, in consideration thereof,
it is ordered and decreed that upon security being entered in
the sum of one thousand dollars, an injunction issue, restricting
the defendants from ringing the bells of Saint Mark's Church or
otherwise using the same so as to cause nuisance or annoyance, by
sound or noise, to the complainants, or any of them, within their
respective houses."
-- 1877 Pennsylvania Court Decision
http://www.phillyringers.com/stmarks/new%20trial.htm
and more recently in New Hampshire:
DERRY - (June 8, 2001) - After ringing every hour on the hour
since 1887, Pinkerton Academy's bell tower may be silenced
during the nighttime hours if two new town residents have
their way.
Debra L. Shapiro, of Perley Road, and Suzanne Trotter, of
Newells Meadow Lane, went before town councilors Tuesday to
plead their case for turning the bell off late at night.
"I can't imagine anyone getting used to it," said Mrs.
Shapiro, who moved into her townhouse about half a mile from
Pinkerton in February. "The night we first moved in the
bells kept waking us up -- at midnight, at 1, at 2, and 3
in the morning. . . ."
Mrs. Trotter, who lives across the street from Pinkerton,
says her 2-year-old son is afraid of the tolling bells at
night. She moved into her townhouse in April.
After listening to Mrs. Shapiro and Mrs. Trotter, Town
Council decided to write a letter to Pinkerton officials
asking them to consider turning the bell off during the
late night hours and after midnight. . . .
http://www.eagletribune.com/news/stories/20010608/NH_002.htm
Possibly the matter of Tommy's Pizza could be more amicably resolved with
the words of the one-time Cambridge resident and American epic poet:
Raising his reverend hand, with a gesture he awed into silence
All that clamorous throng; and thus he spake to his people;
Deep were his tones and solemn; in accents measured and mournful
Spake he, as, after the tocsin's alarum, distinctly the clock strikes.
"What is this that ye do, my children? what madness has seized you?
Forty years of my life have I labored among you, and taught you,
Not in word alone, but in deed, to love one another!
-- Evangeline, A Tale of Acadie
(Part I - Section IV)
by
Henry Wadsworth Longfellow
1847
Cheers,
The Old Bear
David Chesler
> Get a grip. It sounds to me like these are things that enhances the
> quality of life in Boston for most. No city wants to become a
> party-school city. We moved AWAY from New York, and so have millions
> of others, because of the very things you'd consider strengths there.
I moved away from New York for many reasons, but the fact that
they didn't roll up the sidewalks at 1am wasn't one of them, in
fact it's one of the things I miss most.
Being able to buy a pizza (or take public transit) at 2am hardly
makes a place a party-school city.
(Why are churches exempt from noise ordinances? I understand that
they are free from taxes by convention, and free from zoning by the
Dover law. What else? Of course it's only government-approved
churches that get these exemptions.)
David Chesler
> > >Again, you can choose not to complain if you wish, but don't think
> > >that that obligates others to comply with your sensibilities.
> > Brian, I gotta ask a question here. Where do you draw the line?
> > You have to draw it somewhere.
>
> Residential zoning. Here in Burlington that means quiet between 10pm
> and 7am. It applies to all human beings and pets, and all
> machinations within residences and businesses. The only thing it
> doesn't apply to is the interstate highway.
Harvard Square is not "Residential" zoned. In most of suburbia,
multi-family dwellings wouldn't fit there, and
certainly not the mixed-use retail, or even office, uses
that are part of Harvard Square.
jes...@hexdump.org
: quality of life in Boston for most. No city wants to become a
: party-school city. We moved AWAY from New York, and so have millions
: of others, because of the very things you'd consider strengths there.
But see, I can point to anecdotal evidence as well and note many friends
around the country who *won't* move here for just that reason.
jes...@hexdump.org
: I'm curious: what's your basis for comparison? I've lived in
: Boston and New York, and spent a fair amount of time in San
: Francisco, and my impression is the opposite of yours.
Boston/Cambridge & NY mainly - most of my time has been spent in 2nd
(and lower) tier cities (Albany NY for instance). Which is exactly my
point - these backwater cities shouldn't be outclassing a city which
wishes to be "world class" in terms of nightlife.
I'm sorry, but the T shutting down at 12:30 is rediculous. That bars
close at 2am is rediculous. Considering that most of the younger bar/club
crowd don't even go out until 10+pm at night, that doesn't provide much
time.
: Here's another point to consider: are you really talking about
: catering to "young people", or catering to a stereotype? I
I mean what I just said above. Allow the "nightlife" to stay open later.
Let eateries decide if they want to stay open or not. Let bars decide
if they want to stay open or not. Run the T longer (I realize the
problems w/ that, but the NIght Owl bus is pretty cool - but I have every
belief it will get shitcanned when the trial run is up).
I don't see where you're getting from this that I'm looking for Abercrombie
& Fitch city being created.
Mary Malmros
<jes...@hexdump.org> wrote:
>Mary Malmros <mal...@nautilus.shore.net> wrote:
>: I'm curious: what's your basis for comparison? I've lived in
>: Boston and New York, and spent a fair amount of time in San
>: Francisco, and my impression is the opposite of yours.
>
>Boston/Cambridge & NY mainly - most of my time has been spent in 2nd
>(and lower) tier cities (Albany NY for instance). Which is exactly my
>point - these backwater cities shouldn't be outclassing a city which
>wishes to be "world class" in terms of nightlife.
Let me challenge several assumptions in the preceding sentence:
1. That the city wishes to be "world class" in terms of nightlife;
2. That "world class" = open late;
3. That the bigger the city, the higher it should rate on this
"world class" scale of nightlife.
These are the kind of slavish and unquestioned assumptions
that Boston, and other cities, needs to challenge. There
is no consensus about what "world class" nightlife would
look like, nor whether it's a desirable thing; there can be
no such consensus, because there has been no dialogue. And,
all too often, the reason that there has been no dialogue
is that people with a narrow set of priorities shout down
anyone who doesn't buy their whole program with jeers of
"backwater", "provincial", etc.
>I'm sorry, but the T shutting down at 12:30 is rediculous. That bars
>close at 2am is rediculous. Considering that most of the younger bar/club
>crowd don't even go out until 10+pm at night, that doesn't provide much
>time.
Some more assumptions may be happening here:
4. That the primary purpose for public transportation is to
cater to late-night club goers;
5. That the reason why the T shuts down at 12:30 is because
They don't want you to have fun late at night;
6. That the schedule of "the younger bar/club crowd" should
dictate the T's hours of service;
The reason why the T is not open beyond 12:30 is not because
They don't want you to have fun, it's because the T costs money
to operate and the ridership does not pay for itself. Expanding
the hours past 12:30 would be adding operational expense equal
to that of peak hours -- if not more, because of the need for
added security -- to carry relatively light loads. IOW, it
heads the system even further into the red. Given that the
taxpayers of the entire commonwealth would end up picking up
the tab, I do not think that the T considers the "needs" of
"the younger bar/club crowd" of Boston to be of paramount
importance.
>: Here's another point to consider: are you really talking about
>: catering to "young people", or catering to a stereotype? I
>
>I mean what I just said above.
I understand that you meant it; what I'm questioning is your
representation of the wants and needs of "young people".
>I don't see where you're getting from this that I'm looking for Abercrombie
>& Fitch city being created.
I don't think that's what you want, but I think that's what
you'll get if the city heads further down the path that
it's already been on for some time.
jes...@hexdump.org
: 1. That the city wishes to be "world class" in terms of nightlife;
No, I said it attempts to be "world class"
: 2. That "world class" = open late;
One of the things that one even sees people who aren't exactly pro-latenight
point to are things like the "open late" aspect. I didn't say that was
the entire problem, just one facet that needs work.
"World Class" tends to imply a certain level of entertainment, amoungst
many other things. Entertainment tends to imply that one can find such
even at the wee hours.
: 3. That the bigger the city, the higher it should rate on this
: "world class" scale of nightlife.
No, once again you're reading too much into what I said. However, again
keeping in mind that a "world class" city *should* be vibrant at all hours,
my point here was that cities which suck (a la Albany) put Boston to shame
in this category.
: 4. That the primary purpose for public transportation is to
: cater to late-night club goers;
Obviously it isn't - however I don't think many would dispute that this
would be predominant usage, especially late night. Many detractors from
the Night Owl service complain that it is mainly getting used by
partiers and not the poor late night workers that the MBTA cited to get
it all accepted.
: 5. That the reason why the T shuts down at 12:30 is because
: They don't want you to have fun late at night;
Not the T, the old church marms who tend to rule these things here in MA.
: 6. That the schedule of "the younger bar/club crowd" should
: dictate the T's hours of service;
Of course not.
However, let me ask you this. How many times are you downtown at 2am on
a Friday or Saturday night?
Have you seen the *massive* throngs of people waiting for a cab?
Have you seen how *packed* the night owl busses get?
I won't believe that the MBTA can't make money here. I tend to think that
someone is in league with the cabbies here - they make money hand over fist.
: The reason why the T is not open beyond 12:30 is not because
: They don't want you to have fun, it's because the T costs money
: to operate and the ridership does not pay for itself. Expanding
I'm too lazy to go back and get the exact quote, but i'm 99.9% certain
I said that I realized there were valid reasons for them shutting down
early - the subway especially. I would appreciate it if you stopped
putting thoughts in my head.
: added security -- to carry relatively light loads. IOW, it
Once again - how many times do you find yourself downtown at those
hours? To call them "light loads" is simply absurd.
: I understand that you meant it; what I'm questioning is your
: representation of the wants and needs of "young people".
I would also point out that I'm completely for raising in the fare at
night, doubling it perhaps (although how that'd work w/ passes I'm not
sure). I believe its a fairly necessary service - my main issue is that
the city ordinances on when everything "shuts down" isn't at the same
time as when the public transportation shuts down. That just leads
to increased drunk driving and cab companies making out like bandits.
: I don't think that's what you want, but I think that's what
: you'll get if the city heads further down the path that
: it's already been on for some time.
That's going to happen regardless. I don't think it has anything to do
with people who want to stay out late.
Daniel Salomon
> I wonder if Tommy's has made any effort at all to try
> and manage this -- if, indeed, this noise is being made
> by their patrons. If I owned the place and wanted to
> extend my hours, I'd start by putting up signs in
> my business asking patrons to not congregate outside
> late at night and to be quiet when walking through
> the neighborhood, and I'd tell them why I was asking
> (i.e., that I wanted to extend hours and wanted to
> be able to produce evidence that I'd had some success
> at managing noise).
"Please respect Tommy's neighborhood.
No noise, especially at night
and
No litter"
-Several signs that have long been posted inside Tommy's House of
Pizza.
I also suspect that many of the students who go to Tommy's read the
Harvard Crimson, where this story has been on the front page for
several days.
-Dan
Daniel Salomon
> > I know from all over always ask how could people live here - how the "life"
> > is dead because everything closes early, the T doesn't run late, there are
> > the aforementioned silly noise limits on things, everything ends up
> > catering to the old church marm, etc.
> another one of those faceless, soulless, franchised-to-death cities you see
> all across the country.
Except in this case, the anti-noise actions are destroying a Harvard
Square tradition. The trend in Harvard Square is that independent
locally-owned businesses, many of which stay open late, are being
replaced with franchises that close at 7 pm.
The woman who initiated the complaints against Tommy's was quoted in
the Crimson as saying she wanted the place, and the brand new
associated convenience store two doors down, to be open from 7 am to 9
pm, like a "normal store".
-Dan
David Chesler
> I wonder if Tommy's has made any effort at all to try
> and manage this -- if, indeed, this noise is being made
> by their patrons. If I owned the place and wanted to
> extend my hours, I'd start by putting up signs in
> my business asking patrons to not congregate outside
> late at night and to be quiet when walking through
> the neighborhood
"The neighborhood" around is the Mt. Auburn Street Gold Coast.
Harvardland. Due north is Adams House, due south is Lowell
House and new Quincy House, west is the Lampoon, east is
some small businesses, an upscale restaurant, and a lowscale
club, and St. Paul's. Further west is mixed residential
(such as Claverly, Apley, and other former Gold Coast hotels
that didn't get subsumed into the House System) which is
highly Harvard-centric, mostly, AFAIK, grad student and
undergrad overflow. Northeast in the block between Arrow St
and Mass Ave there are some apartments for normal people, but
Tommy's isn't the greatest source of noise there. There are
ever-shrinking pockets of normal housing further east on
Mt. Auburn Street -- in the 1980s I knew a little old lady
in #8, who seemed comfortable enough that she was surrounded
by student types, since then I see the row of woodframe
houses has been replaced by something more Harvard-like.
This is the first I'd ever heard of the apartments above
Tommy's. (I think these must be above the shop which faces
Plympton St -- Tommy's, IIRC, is 1-story.) I find it very
hard to believe that anybody now living could have moved
into any residence in that area and not realized it was
surrounded by undergraduates.
I don't know much about Gen-Y (if that's what we're up to --
I'm four years too old to be Gen-X) but I find it hard to
believe undergrads are noisier now than a quarter century
ago.
David Chesler
> AND, I would add that this isn't limited to students, either. While
> working nights around here for two years, I found it baffling that in
> a big city, next to nothing caters to late-night people. I know -- I
> spent a lot of time searching. There's nothing unique about Boston
> that it can't support late-night businesses that other areas can (on
> the contrary, it's probably got more people prone to go spend money at
> all hours than most cities). So I don't chalk it up to simply the fact
> that there's no demand for it.
A lifetime ago I had a job delivering newspapers from the Crimson
to the South Station Post Office at about 4am. That was my introduction
to the downtown highways, and I was quite surprised the first time I
tried to drive someone to South Station in the late afternoon!
The old Buzzy's Roast Beef was still open when I needed it, but
it was an exception, not the rule.
A little later I drove a shuttle bus until 2am, and it was very
nice that I could still get something at Tommy's after my shift.
As a software type I've gone home at every hour at one time or
another. This city absolutely shuts down at night. There are
other cities which truly never sleep. (I don't think I've
ever been there, but I've been rebuilding some part of a car
in the Bronx at 2am considering a contingency plan that had
us driving to an all-night auto parts store in Queens; in
Manhattan it makes perfect sense that you can buy a newspaper
and fresh fruit on most streets at any hour.)
Xiphias Gladius
> Herrell's Ice Cream has been there at least 20 years as well.
Can this be right? I'm 28. . . no, wait, 27 . . . so that would mean that
it had been there since I was 7. But, when Steve Herrell sold Steve's, he
agreed not to re-enter the ice cream business for some period of time,
which had to be at least a year. And I think I was already in school in
Arlington, so I was at least in third grade, when he sold the store.
So, 20 years just seems to be a little short. . . .
- Ian
--
Have you ever spent days and days and days making up flavors of ice cream
that no one's ever eaten before? Like chicken and telephone ice cream?
Green mouse ice cream was the worst. I didn't like that at all. -- Delirium
Xiphias Gladius
> John R Levine wrote:
>> So where's the good pizza these days?
> New York.
> Oh, closer to Harvard than that? Hi-Fi, or closer (within
> its sphere of influence) Il Panino, or even closer, Pinnochio.
> AFAIK, Three Aces is still around.
As I remember from my misspent youth, Three Aces was *satisfying* pizza,
but not what I would consider *good* pizza. That is, I consider it a kind
of bad pizza that I like.
David Chesler
>
> Ron Newman <rne...@thecia.net> wrote:
>
> > Herrell's Ice Cream has been there at least 20 years as well.
>
> Can this be right? I'm 28. . . no, wait, 27 . . . so that would mean that
> it had been there since I was 7. But, when Steve Herrell sold Steve's, he
> agreed not to re-enter the ice cream business for some period of time,
> which had to be at least a year. And I think I was already in school in
> Arlington, so I was at least in third grade, when he sold the store.
>
> So, 20 years just seems to be a little short. . . .
OK, I once witnessed something that led to court case, and I
was on a walk with my roommates when it happened. We were
on our way to the "new" Steve's Ice Cream on Church St, across
from Palmer -- formerly I'd had to take a shuttle bus to
near Davis Sq to get Steve's Ice Cream. (Yes, the shuttle bus
went to Steve's. Unlike a train, buses will go whichever way
you steer them, and I was the one steering.) From a variety of
circumstances, I'm sure this was fall 1982. I think that was
during the corporate expansion years.
I graduated in 1984, and I'm pretty sure Herrell's was open
in the bank vault on Dunster St by then, but no earlier than
1983, and maybe it was later. So I'd think 20 years is longer
than Herrell's has been there.
Uri Guttman
DC> OK, I once witnessed something that led to court case, and I
DC> was on a walk with my roommates when it happened. We were
DC> on our way to the "new" Steve's Ice Cream on Church St, across
DC> from Palmer -- formerly I'd had to take a shuttle bus to
DC> near Davis Sq to get Steve's Ice Cream. (Yes, the shuttle bus
DC> went to Steve's. Unlike a train, buses will go whichever way
DC> you steer them, and I was the one steering.) From a variety of
DC> circumstances, I'm sure this was fall 1982. I think that was
DC> during the corporate expansion years.
DC> I graduated in 1984, and I'm pretty sure Herrell's was open
DC> in the bank vault on Dunster St by then, but no earlier than
DC> 1983, and maybe it was later. So I'd think 20 years is longer
DC> than Herrell's has been there.
well, a simple google search showed up herrells.com and it says:
Our founder, Mr. S. Herrell, has had a profound influence on the
recent history of ice cream. Mr. Herrell founded Herrell's in
1980; but previously, in 1973, he had founded another ice cream
business, near Boston.
Mr. Herrell sold his first business in 1977 and no longer has
any connection with it.
so i was right about the 3 year delay due to the non-compete clause in
the sale of steve's but it was over 20 years ago (by less than a year
:).
notice that his name has the initial S and not the name steve. :) even
his picture's caption is S. Herrell. i wonder if that is for legal or
emotional reasons?
uri
--
Uri Guttman --------- u...@sysarch.com ---------- http://www.sysarch.com
SYStems ARCHitecture and Stem Development ------ http://www.stemsystems.com
Search or Offer Perl Jobs -------------------------- http://jobs.perl.org
David Chesler
> well, a simple google search showed up herrells.com and it says:
>
> Our founder, Mr. S. Herrell, has had a profound influence on the
> recent history of ice cream. Mr. Herrell founded Herrell's in
> 1980; but previously, in 1973, he had founded another ice cream
> business, near Boston.
>
> Mr. Herrell sold his first business in 1977 and no longer has
> any connection with it.
>
> so i was right about the 3 year delay due to the non-compete clause in
> the sale of steve's but it was over 20 years ago (by less than a year
> :).
The site cited notes that it was the Northampton store which opened
in 1980. I stand by my recollection that the Dunster St store was
not yet open in 1980.
And the quality at Steve's in Davis Square remained high -- worthy
of the wait in the line that snaked around the store -- into the
early 1980s. (I first came here, not counting a school field trip,
in 1979. I was first here as a grown-up in 1986, and probably
first visited Kimball's the following summer. Maybe it was just
fat shock, but my opinion was that it was super premium as time
went on.)
I've always been surprised that Baskin & Robbins held on so
long in Quincy Square, and was often listed in contention for
best ice cream in Harvard Square.
>
> notice that his name has the initial S and not the name steve. :) even
> his picture's caption is S. Herrell. i wonder if that is for legal or
> emotional reasons?
There are uses of the name Stephen elsewhere in the site.
And IMHO the most he should take credit for is introducing
COMMERCIAL super-premium. In the early 1970s we had a
brine-cooled ice cream maker (the big innovation was that
it was electric-cranked) and I learned what real vanilla
seed and fresh berries were about. (But like Baskin & Robbins
and Howard Johnson's, we never got beyond the old standards
into ginger and beyond.)
David S Chesler
> Daniel Salomon wrote:
> > What did Tommy's Lunch serve?
>
> Cheesesteak subs ($2.85)
> Frappes
> Egg Creams (their egg creams made the Globe once)
> Lime Rickeys
> Full ice cream/fountain menu
> Typical sub/grinder menu
> Coffee/Tea
> In the morning, morning stuff (eggs, bacon)
Also pastries.
On the back wall, over the grill, was a sign with a portrait of
a young Tommy Stefanian. Sometimes hanging from it was a T-shirt
with the same image. Its logo may be viewed at
http://www.stormloader.com/chesler/T_Shirts
(Also reproduced on that page is a T-shirt from a pizzeria
in Weirs Beach which knows what the standard for pizza is.)
bicker
> I'm sorry, but the T shutting down at 12:30 is rediculous. That bars
> close at 2am is rediculous. Considering that most of the younger bar/club
> crowd don't even go out until 10+pm at night, that doesn't provide much
> time.
And why is that a bad thing?
bicker
> Mary Malmros <mal...@nautilus.shore.net> wrote:
> : 1. That the city wishes to be "world class" in terms of nightlife;
> No, I said it attempts to be "world class"
What's the difference?
> : 2. That "world class" = open late;
> One of the things that one even sees people who aren't exactly pro-latenight
> point to are things like the "open late" aspect. I didn't say that was
> the entire problem, just one facet that needs work.
> "World Class" tends to imply a certain level of entertainment, amoungst
> many other things. Entertainment tends to imply that one can find such
> even at the wee hours.
All of these implications are in your mind. Mary's point, presumably,
is that we shouldn't slave ourselves to those implications, especially
since many of them run counter to other priorities of a "world class"
city.
> : 3. That the bigger the city, the higher it should rate on this
> : "world class" scale of nightlife.
> No, once again you're reading too much into what I said. However, again
> keeping in mind that a "world class" city *should* be vibrant at all hours,
> my point here was that cities which suck (a la Albany) put Boston to shame
> in this category.
Or maybe these are aspects in which Boston is BETTER than these other
cities.
> : 4. That the primary purpose for public transportation is to
> : cater to late-night club goers;
> Obviously it isn't - however I don't think many would dispute that this
> would be predominant usage, especially late night.
Putting aside whether it would generate enough revenue to warrant
keeping it open (which I don't even think is a major consideration),
the fact is that in the minds of many it would foster activity COUNTER
to the best interests of the community.
> Many detractors from
> the Night Owl service complain that it is mainly getting used by
> partiers
QED.
> : 5. That the reason why the T shuts down at 12:30 is because
> : They don't want you to have fun late at night;
> Not the T, the old church marms who tend to rule these things here in MA.
They're called "adults."
> : 6. That the schedule of "the younger bar/club crowd" should
> : dictate the T's hours of service;
> Of course not.
> : The reason why the T is not open beyond 12:30 is not because
> : They don't want you to have fun, it's because the T costs money
> : to operate and the ridership does not pay for itself. Expanding
> I'm too lazy to go back and get the exact quote,
<kof>
> : I understand that you meant it; what I'm questioning is your
> : representation of the wants and needs of "young people".
> I would also point out that I'm completely for raising in the fare at
> night, doubling it perhaps (although how that'd work w/ passes I'm not
> sure). I believe its a fairly necessary service - my main issue is that
> the city ordinances on when everything "shuts down" isn't at the same
> time as when the public transportation shuts down. That just leads
> to increased drunk driving
This, so far, IMO, is the only valid point you've made.
> and cab companies making out like bandits.
Seems to me they're providing a service for a fee.
bicker
Salomon) wrote:
> Except in this case, the anti-noise actions are destroying a Harvard
> Square tradition.
Uh, no. The Harvard Square tradition was destroyed when the current
owner took over the eatery and turned it into something different from
what it was.
bicker
> bicker <use...@brianandrobbie.com.1nval1d> wrote:
> : quality of life in Boston for most. No city wants to become a
> : party-school city. We moved AWAY from New York, and so have millions
> : of others, because of the very things you'd consider strengths there.
> But see, I can point to anecdotal evidence as well and note many friends
> around the country who *won't* move here for just that reason.
That's why we vote on who represents our interests in local
government, instead of relying on anecdotal evidence.
bicker
Malmros) wrote:
> >These aren't "my sensibilities" -- these are the sensibilities of the
> >community as a whole.
> That's actually not 100% clear (I assume you've switched back
> to talking about Tommy's Pizza, and not the sawmill in Amherst).
> The 3-vs-80 number doesn't tell the whole story, but what has
> been said here doesn't make plain just how "the sensibilitiesof the
> community as a whole" was determined.
By popular election of city council members.
bicker
<che...@post.harvard.edu> wrote:
> bicker wrote:
> > > >Again, you can choose not to complain if you wish, but don't think
> > > >that that obligates others to comply with your sensibilities.
> > > Brian, I gotta ask a question here. Where do you draw the line?
> > > You have to draw it somewhere.
> > Residential zoning. Here in Burlington that means quiet between 10pm
> > and 7am. It applies to all human beings and pets, and all
> > machinations within residences and businesses. The only thing it
> > doesn't apply to is the interstate highway.
> Harvard Square is not "Residential" zoned. In most of suburbia,
> multi-family dwellings wouldn't fit there, and
> certainly not the mixed-use retail, or even office, uses
> that are part of Harvard Square.
In order for an apartment to be there, the building must be zoned
residential or residential/commercial mixed use. Either way, the city
has designated the area as one where residential dwellings are.
jes...@hexdump.org
: And why is that a bad thing?
Because a sizeable %age of the populace of the immediate area would like
it not to be like that?
Like it or not, a heavy percentage of Boston & Cambridge residents are
students and very young (20-30) professionals. And that's the exact
crowd which also tends to heavily view things as "a long night out" as a
good thing.
jes...@hexdump.org
: What's the difference?
That there are obviously categories other then "nightlife" which are required
to be "World Class".
: Or maybe these are aspects in which Boston is BETTER than these other
: cities.
There are obviously. Yay. We beat out Albany,NY on the city measurement
scale. Wowwwwweeeeee. And Pittsburgh too. Damned - Pitt keeps bars open
later, but we rock their socks off in so many other ways!
When we can start competing on the "other aspects" (which I feel that
in some ways we can, but not completely) as well as things like the
nightlife with cities like NYC, Paris, Tokyo, etc - get back to me.
: the fact is that in the minds of many it would foster activity COUNTER
: to the best interests of the community.
Okay fine. We'll just continue to shaft the late night workers, allow
rampant drunk driving to continue (since people want to avoid the cab
fares) and let massive throngs of people gather around choke points waiting
for the relatively small number of cabs waiting to clean up. Not to mention,
many people will just walk home - through people's neighborhoods ... drunkenly.
Would you rather them carousing through the streets or on a bus?
: They're called "adults."
No, they're called people who should mind their own business.
: This, so far, IMO, is the only valid point you've made.
I'm still waiting for you to make one.
: Seems to me they're providing a service for a fee.
Which is why I think they're in cahoots somehow.
Look, you said that you live in Burlington. Obviously you are either
some old boob or at least someone who acts like one. I ask you the same
question I asked the other poster - how often are you downtown around
2 to 3am on a "going out" night? These people exist, and they need to
get home somehow. Would you rather them driving about and parading around
like the drunken idiots they are? Or would you prefer them be on a
semi-orderly public transportation system (which, by the way, AFAIK has
not had any incidents to date).
jes...@hexdump.org
: That's why we vote on who represents our interests in local
: government, instead of relying on anecdotal evidence.
And according to you, you don't live in Boston or Cambridge, the
two cities being discussed here, so that means you can't vote at all :)
David Chesler
> > > > You have to draw it somewhere.
> > > Residential zoning. Here in Burlington that means quiet between 10pm
> > > and 7am.
> > Harvard Square is not "Residential" zoned. In most of suburbia,
> > multi-family dwellings wouldn't fit there, and
> > certainly not the mixed-use retail, or even office, uses
> > that are part of Harvard Square.
>
> In order for an apartment to be there, the building must be zoned
> residential or residential/commercial mixed use. Either way, the city
> has designated the area as one where residential dwellings are.
They're not the same thing. (Residential and residential/commercial
mixed use.)
Daniel Salomon
[several examples of jobs he held where he found late-night eateries
useful]
That helps prove my point that not all Tommy's patrons are screaming
drunks, nor are they all students.
When I was a student I often made use of Tommy's when working on math
problem sets late at night.
-Dan
Xiphias Gladius
> bicker <use...@brianandrobbie.com.1nval1d> wrote:
> : What's the difference?
> That there are obviously categories other then "nightlife" which are required
> to be "World Class".
> : Or maybe these are aspects in which Boston is BETTER than these other
> : cities.
> There are obviously. Yay. We beat out Albany,NY on the city measurement
> scale. Wowwwwweeeeee. And Pittsburgh too. Damned - Pitt keeps bars open
> later, but we rock their socks off in so many other ways!
> When we can start competing on the "other aspects" (which I feel that
> in some ways we can, but not completely) as well as things like the
> nightlife with cities like NYC, Paris, Tokyo, etc - get back to me.
The question, I suppose, is whether one *wants* to live in a "world class"
city. Me, I like living in a city that's not as flashy or big as New York
or Paris or Tokyo or Chicago or Los Angeles. If I wanted to live in New
York or Paris or Tokyo or Chicago or Los Angeles, I'd live in New York or
Paris or Tokyo or Chicago or Los Angeles. I don't. I wanna live in
Boston.
NYC, and Paris, and Tokyo already exist. Why do we need another one?
Frankly, I'd like better nite owl public transportation, for many of the
reasons you mention: less drunk driving, and so forth. And I'd like to
get the stupid archaic sex laws off the books. But this, to me, is a
reason to agitate for later public transportation and legal reform: not a
reason to bemoan Boston's lack of classy worldliness.
Ron Newman
<a12qttkvhl2s42ag3...@4ax.com>, Adam stated...
>
>In <3BDD00BD...@post.harvard.edu>, David Chesler wrote:
>
>> The site cited notes that it was the Northampton store which opened
>> in 1980. I stand by my recollection that the Dunster St store was
>> not yet open in 1980.
>
Still is.
--
Ron Newman rne...@thecia.net
http://www2.thecia.net/users/rnewman/home.html
Ron Newman
<T_ZC7.559$0N4....@news.shore.net>, mal...@nautilus.shore.net stated...
>The reason why the T is not open beyond 12:30 is not because
>They don't want you to have fun, it's because the T costs money
>to operate and the ridership does not pay for itself. Expanding
>the hours past 12:30 would be adding operational expense equal
>to that of peak hours -- if not more, because of the need for
>added security -- to carry relatively light loads. IOW, it
>heads the system even further into the red. Given that the
>taxpayers of the entire commonwealth would end up picking up
>the tab, I do not think that the T considers the "needs" of
>"the younger bar/club crowd" of Boston to be of paramount
>importance.
In Amsterdam, the solution to this is to charge higher fares for
"night buses" than for the regular streetcars, subways, and Metro
lines that they replace between midnight and 5 am.
Joseph Teller
<use...@brianandrobbie.com.1NVAL1D> wrote:
>Since there wouldn't be much reason for the college students to be in
>the street if the pizza place was closed, that's rather academic
>(pardon the pun). Also, if they're in the street, the police can take
>appropriate action.
Wrong and wrong.... if there's no place to go and nothing to do
students will make something to do.... and its usually worse than
their going and buying pizza in the middle of the night.
>The whole point of licensing is so the people of the city retain the
>power to decide how businesses in the city operate.
The problem is that most cities abuse that power over the businesses.
Joe
"Our existence deforms the universe. That's responsibility."
--- Delirium
Joseph Teller
<use...@brianandrobbie.com.1NVAL1D> wrote:
>Now you're presuming to say you know their minds? Sorry, that's
>rather arrogant. They listened -- you've already made that clear.
>What they used to factor into their decisions is likely to be their
>personal experience and discretion. There is no question in my mind
>(and I wasn't even there) that they made what they feel was the best
>choice for all the residents of Cambridge.
>
>If students are feeling under-represented, perhaps they should make a
>more significant investment in the community and get some
>representation on the city council. There are likely to be rather
>significant (even legal) barriers to that, and they're there for sound
>reasons. Cities that host schools open their doors, so to speak, to
>these students, and I personally feel that they have every right to
>protect themselves from some of the negative impacts of the transient
>nature of student-residents.
You don't understand how the Cambridge city council works, or how
elections are run in the city, do you? We don't vote here in the same
method as the rest of the state, making it very difficult to get
representation for many people.
Cambridge is not a normal city, in any way, and the power of MIT
(largest employer in the city) and Harvard is very different than the
balance in other cities.
Additionally the city council does not listen necessarily to small
property owners but primarily to developers, the schools and large
property owners.
My suspicion in the case of the Pizza place is that there is more
going on than meets the eye, and that someone wants the block the
building is on to become something else, and that driving out the
existing business could be in the plan.
There are several possibilities, so I won't speculate on who, but I
think you'll find that the situation is even more sinister than it
appears on the surface.
Joseph Teller
Salomon) wrote:
>I wonder if the complainant ever considered the fact that she lives in
>a building surrounded by college dorms for several blocks, that having
>loud college students in the street instead of inside a pizza place
>makes things worse and not better, and that plenty of quiet people
>enjoy eating pizza late at night.
>
>IMO it's none of Cambridge's business how late a business stays open,
>and it's especially bad that they shortened the hours just because
>procedure required the new owner to apply for another restaurant
>license.
>
>My real fear is that with this dropoff in sales, Tommy's might not be
>profitable any more, and the Square would lose one of the few
>remaining businesses that caters to students.
>
>-Dan
Although I am no fan or customer of the store in question, I agree
that the person complaining is in the wrong and that the store should
be allowed to operate any hours it chooses. (as should any store).
Additionally I feel there is a growing anti-student movement in the
Harvard Square area, mostly from some very wealthy folks that moved in
with the rising property values who want to gentrify the area and
homogenize it and child-proof it (all of which I feel are bad things
for the city and take away its character which is part of why I moved
here in the first place).
People that don't like students shouldn't live in a college town/city.
People who make their livings from the colleges shouldn't complain
about the fact that students have lives, talk, go to clubs, etc.
People who make their livelihoods off of students or tourists
shouldn't complain about the people that produce their paycheck.
David Chesler
>
> David Chesler <che...@post.harvard.edu> wrote:
> [several examples of jobs he held where he found late-night eateries
> useful]
>
> That helps prove my point that not all Tommy's patrons are screaming
> drunks, nor are they all students.
Thank you for the support, but for the record I was a pupil[*]
when I held those jobs (the driving jobs, not the software jobs.)
But I was generally sober (unlike the time I went to the Broadway
Market to buy potatos, and couldn't explain to the clerk how by
weighing them in two batches she was introducing a roundoff error
that cost me an extra penny) and I don't scream when I'm drunk.
[*]Student implies studying. Pupils merely attend.
> When I was a student I often made use of Tommy's when working on math
> problem sets late at night.
That always worked better for me in theory than practice.
I stayed on campus one Christmas break intending to learn a semester
of biochemistry. Instead I spent my time at Tommy's learning to
play Battlezone.
Mary Malmros
Daniel Salomon <danielk...@my-deja.com> wrote:
>mal...@nautilus.shore.net (Mary Malmros) wrote:
>> I wonder if Tommy's has made any effort at all to try
>> and manage this -- if, indeed, this noise is being made
>> by their patrons. If I owned the place and wanted to
>> extend my hours, I'd start by putting up signs in
>> my business asking patrons to not congregate outside
>> late at night and to be quiet when walking through
>> the neighborhood, and I'd tell them why I was asking
>> (i.e., that I wanted to extend hours and wanted to
>> be able to produce evidence that I'd had some success
>> at managing noise).
>
>"Please respect Tommy's neighborhood.
>No noise, especially at night
>and
>No litter"
>
>-Several signs that have long been posted inside Tommy's House of
>Pizza.
>
>I also suspect that many of the students who go to Tommy's read the
>Harvard Crimson, where this story has been on the front page for
>several days.
So...what happened? Was it that
a)the noise wasn't being made by Tommy's patrons
b)there never was any noise
c)the noise was made by Tommy's patrons who just didn't give a damn?
--
::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::
Mary Malmros Very Small Being mal...@shore.net
"I would not exchange the sorrows of my heart
for the joys of the multitude"
Mary Malmros
Joseph Teller <joet...@mindspring.com> wrote:
>On Thu, 25 Oct 2001 09:23:26 -0400, bicker
><use...@brianandrobbie.com.1NVAL1D> wrote:
>
>>Since there wouldn't be much reason for the college students to be in
>>the street if the pizza place was closed, that's rather academic
>>(pardon the pun). Also, if they're in the street, the police can take
>>appropriate action.
>
>Wrong and wrong.... if there's no place to go and nothing to do
>students will make something to do.... and its usually worse than
>their going and buying pizza in the middle of the night.
Some of us actually did some studying, went to some classes,
and held down jobs...but maybe that's not much in favor any
more. "No place to go and nothing to do" was simply never
the case.
Pete from Boston
> John R Levine <jo...@iecc.com> wrote:
> : So where's the good pizza these days? Tommy's was always open late,
> : but I always thought of it as the kind of pizza that tastes great when
> : your tastebuds are as exhausted as the rest of you.
>
> That and HiFi :)
>
> Not in Cambridge, but I actually like the Big City in Allston, more for
> its variety than great quality.
Never ate it, but another node of the same owner's food empire --
Redneck's -- has very unusual but great slices. I recall that they're
thin and floppy, but decent sized overall.
Tops in Allston, I think, is Inbound. Pizza Ring's up there too, and
they have Chilean empanadas I'd sell my soul for.
Pete from Boston
> On Sun, 28 Oct 2001 21:48:30 GMT, jes...@hexdump.org wrote:
> > Mary Malmros <mal...@nautilus.shore.net> wrote:
> > : 3. That the bigger the city, the higher it should rate on this
> > : "world class" scale of nightlife.
> > No, once again you're reading too much into what I said. However, again
> > keeping in mind that a "world class" city *should* be vibrant at all hours,
> > my point here was that cities which suck (a la Albany) put Boston to shame
> > in this category.
>
> Or maybe these are aspects in which Boston is BETTER than these other
> cities.
>
> > : 4. That the primary purpose for public transportation is to
> > : cater to late-night club goers;
> > Obviously it isn't - however I don't think many would dispute that this
> > would be predominant usage, especially late night.
>
> Putting aside whether it would generate enough revenue to warrant
> keeping it open (which I don't even think is a major consideration),
> the fact is that in the minds of many it would foster activity COUNTER
> to the best interests of the community.
To me this isn't relevant, unless your ultimate solution to the
problem of late-night drunk driving is to simply close the bars much
earlier than they do now. Otherwise, the current situation fosters
quite a lot of activity detrimental to the community.
>
> > Many detractors from
> > the Night Owl service complain that it is mainly getting used by
> > partiers
>
> QED.
They're not going to go away. You might as well make sure they don't
hurt anyone.
> > : 5. That the reason why the T shuts down at 12:30 is because
> > : They don't want you to have fun late at night;
> > Not the T, the old church marms who tend to rule these things here in MA.
>
> They're called "adults."
Believe it or not, there are those of us -- get this -- who are adults
able to go out, be responsible, and take quite good care of ourselves
and our community, who happen to feel there's a restrictive climate in
this city.
> > : 6. That the schedule of "the younger bar/club crowd" should
> > : dictate the T's hours of service;
> Of course not.
> > : The reason why the T is not open beyond 12:30 is not because
> > : They don't want you to have fun, it's because the T costs money
> > : to operate and the ridership does not pay for itself.
Ridership doesn't come anywhere close to paying for itself at 2 in the
afternoon, so of course it won't at night. The hundreds of millions of
dollars put into new commuter rail in the suburbs is even less
profitable, but it's still being pursued aggressively.
> > : I understand that you meant it; what I'm questioning is your
> > : representation of the wants and needs of "young people".
> > I would also point out that I'm completely for raising in the fare at
> > night, doubling it perhaps (although how that'd work w/ passes I'm not
> > sure). I believe its a fairly necessary service - my main issue is that
> > the city ordinances on when everything "shuts down" isn't at the same
> > time as when the public transportation shuts down. That just leads
> > to increased drunk driving
>
> This, so far, IMO, is the only valid point you've made.
And it's the heart of this issue.
> > and cab companies making out like bandits.
>
> Seems to me they're providing a service for a fee.
That service doesn't adequately address the problem, as the number of
drunk people standing in Boylston St. trying to hail a cab at 2:30
a.m. will attest to.
What's important to consider is not the number of those people,
though, it's the number of people who just get in the car instead, and
anyone who thinks the cabs take up most of the slack left by
inadequate nighttime transit is simply looking the other way. Do a
little tour next time the bars close. Watch the droves of drunk people
get in their cars. I see it all the time. If adequate attractive
public transportation options existed, more of these people would
refrain from driving. Is it cost effective? Yes: either the problem of
inadequate post-last-call transportation is addressed, or people die.
Easy math.
jes...@hexdump.org
: "night buses" than for the regular streetcars, subways, and Metro
: lines that they replace between midnight and 5 am.
Yeah, I'm totally for this - however, how do you solve the issue of
people w/ the T passes and the like?
Perhaps having a special "night pass" (much like a normal combo pass)
that costs X dollars extra but allows you to pass-in on the night
fares?
jes...@hexdump.org
: Frankly, I'd like better nite owl public transportation, for many of the
: get the stupid archaic sex laws off the books. But this, to me, is a
: reason to agitate for later public transportation and legal reform: not a
: reason to bemoan Boston's lack of classy worldliness.
I personally don't care about the "world class" issue myself - its just
that I've often found the people who *do* care also seem to not like
enabling growth of the nightlife (party-based or otherwise), and that
IMO the two are inextricably linked.
I just think a lot of things about the city/state are crappy "blue laws"
(not really, but in a certain sense) that have no point still existing
except that (despite being generally politically liberal around here) there
are still too many puritanical ideals rampant in the area.
jes...@hexdump.org
: Some of us actually did some studying, went to some classes,
: and held down jobs...but maybe that's not much in favor any
: more. "No place to go and nothing to do" was simply never
: the case.
There does exist a class of student who can manage to do both
ya know.
I feel like most students in the "intelligent but slacker" mold tend to
figure out exactly how much they have to do to do "well" (not excellent
tho) - which isn't much because they're intelligent - and then party the
rest of the time, as opposed to the people who study/work all the time
because they either have to or feel like they have to.
jes...@hexdump.org
: Never ate it, but another node of the same owner's food empire --
: Redneck's -- has very unusual but great slices. I recall that they're
: thin and floppy, but decent sized overall.
That describes the pizza pretty well. Its difficult to eat while playing
pool, I will say that :)
I don't go there very often, and hang w/ some picky types so haven't
really explored the whole gamut - but generally I've been pretty pleased
in a "wacky pizza" sort of way.
Would never go and reccomend it as some super gourmet pizza, but it
serves its purpose.