Organizing a New England 1200k

[Jacob Layer]

Hello All,

Pete Dusel is organizing the 2024 Waterfalls 1200k in New York and I'm shadowing him to understand what's necessary for planning a 1200k.  I'd like to organize a New England 1200k in 2025.  A LOT of work goes into the initial organization and it's not possible without volunteers to make things happen. 

Is there anyone interested in helping organize a New England 1200k?  We have some time but need to come up with a route, decide on any support, etc. by July 31st 2024.  We can organize via email or have brief meetings on zoom to discuss where we are in the process, up to the group.

Best,

Jacob

[Jake Kassen]

I'm certainly up to help.

I helped with Anthony's 1000k several years ago. That route was designed to be expandable to a 1200k. It was a gorgeous route and using the dorm at Colby worked out well as the overnight spot in both directions.

The downside is that these events are a tremendous amount of work, a lot more than twice that of a 600k. With the range of rider speeds you end up needing to plan on having controls staffed for 24-48+ hours, transporting more bags, etc. Tracking down overnight spots can be a challenge too unless you tell riders to just book their own accommodations.

Not all 1200ks are fully supported but it really makes for a much more enjoyable event, at least as a rider.

Jake

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[Charles Coldwell]

I wonder if the “super perm” could be a good route? It’s about 1,200 km.

I’m willing to help.

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[Steve Wimberg]

I would be willing to help as well.

Not sure if you are even thinking about this, but is using the BMB route an option?

Steve

[Jacob Layer]

The more senior members of the club can correct me if I'm wrong but I think BMB or a revised version of it is off-limits. If I'm right on that point they should be able to say why.

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[Tsun Au Yeung]

Jacob,

Speaking on the logistic front, the easier 1200km to organize are the clover leaf options (which you will experienced under the guidance of Pete D.), I wonder if the 2015 Northern New England 1000km could be a base for you to build from with Colby College being the start/finish of the ride.  Logistically that could be "easier" to handle with people planning their overnight at the same location and therefore there is no need to do the drop bags.  That's my 2 cents.  My other thinking is that would you rather do this in 2026 as I believe LEL is coming up in Aug 2025, I don't know how much cross over there is but my guess is that if we are offering a 1200km it will be in July or later time frame of the year.

Tsun 

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[Jake Kassen]

Given all the effort Jennifer put into BMB, I wouldn't want to re-use that route without her approval and support.

Perhaps more to the point, I don't think it's something that would be great re-use without significant redesign anyway. A lot has changed with roads since BMB was put together. There's nicer ways to get from Boston to Montreal now. Since everyone has a GPS, keeping people on major roads for ease of navigation isn't the concern it used to be.

Many of the control locations are no longer in operation either. Replacements could be found but it's not as if it's ready to go as-is.

There's so many nice places to ride in New England, I also think we could come up with other routes. The New England Super Perm (still in planning) would basically be a very nice loop through all six states and it's designed to basically have food/lodging options every ~100k. Still a challenge to find good overnight spots for a group at the right spacing.

Jake

> -------Original Message-------
> From: Jacob Layer <jvl...@gmail.com>
> To: Steve Wimberg <st...@stevewimberg.com>
> Cc: New England Randonneurs <ne-rand...@googlegroups.com>
> Subject: Re: [NER] Organizing a New England 1200k
> Sent: 11 Sep '23 13:18
>
> The more senior members of the club can correct me if I'm wrong but I
> think BMB or a revised version of it is off-limits. If I'm right on
> that point they should be able to say why.
>
> On Mon, Sep 11, 2023, 12:45 PM Steve Wimberg <st...@stevewimberg.com>
> wrote:
>
> > I would be willing to help as well.
> >
> > Not sure if you are even thinking about this, but is using the BMB
> > route an option?
> >
> > Steve
> >

> > On Monday, September 11, 2023 at 9:35:26?AM UTC-7 Charles Coldwell

> https://groups.google.com/d/msgid/ne-randonneurs/CA%2BwxGYEKSj09u1XMAD%3DqdWHqvmkyA73WNJ-Oy62RG9Wa7vTFKQ%40mail.gmail.com.
>

[Chris Nucci]

Hi,

If you do end up using the SuperPerm route I would be happy to help look into and organize potential overnight arrangements in the area (just south) of Portland Maine.. 

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[Charles Coldwell]

Apropos BMB: Jake is right both Bullard Farm (New Salem, MA) and the youth hostel in Ludlow, VT no longer exist, so that’s two controls from the original that we no longer have.

The BMB route is not terrific. I could come up with better ways to get in and out of metro Boston with little effort. The section around Williston/Burlington VT is just icky. I don’t know that area as well, but there must be a better way.

Here’s the original route FWIW.

https://ridewithgps.com/events/11794-bmb

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[Nicholas Seifert]

I'd be interested in helping with any northern or central Vermont routing. There are great ways around Williston and South Burlington for a BMB route, I rode a lot of that last summer. 

Nick 

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[Sarah B.]

The other issue with BMB is that, last time I checked, we still didn't have an option for running RUSA rides that leave the country, so Montreal would not be possible - that's why NJ-Montreal-NJ had to reroute and Pete's been doing Waterfalls instead of LOL.  (Though Waterfalls is also a lot easier to run due to the cloverleaf aspect and perhaps Pete would be doing that anyway.)

There's a lot of nostalgia around BMB but not a lot of love for the route itself, from everyone I've talked to; with the advent of GPS keeping routing simple and out-and-back for easy arrowing is no longer a priority (and we would not be arrowing anyway). 

Whether or not we use the Super-Perm route or a variant thereof, I do think there's a lot of fun to be had by doing at least six (maybe dip into NY for the seventh) states.  Or there's the option of doing a cloverleaf, perhaps basing out of somewhere in southern NH/VT -- cloverleafs are a lot less epic but also a lot less logistic work.  (That was one thing the out-and-back nature of BMB helped with - it cut down on the number of overnight controls.  We might want to consider something that isn't, perhaps, a full out-and-back but that does cross itself enough to overlap two overnights.)

Although, speaking of VT, if anyone would like to run the Lake Champlain 200 or 300k, those routes would be fun to revive again. 

Sarah

P.S. The start/finish hotel is also closed, not that it was anything special. 

[Andy G]

I've done very well supported 1200 (Cascade) and also a zero support 600 (near Portland Oregon) and both worked well but the support was very welcoming for me as a new rando at the time. I would much rather attempt a New England cloverleaf if that meant I can rent one hotel room and line up clothes and food for the 4 days without having to deal with the extra time and hassle of moving bags around. I would assume it also makes easier planning for overnight controle volunteers, instead of being the lone volunteer in the middle of nowhere waiting on a small number of riders to come through in a very long time period potential.

I would suggest not focusing on a certain number of states but just overall good routes. Also with the understanding the New England brevets likely start a bit later than our friends in warmer places, so a later season date would likely get more locals potentially qualified to participate in time within the season.

Just my 2 cents. I haven't done a brevet in far too long but hope to come out of retirement someday when the kids allow it. I'd love to volunteer if it was somewhere in my area though.

Andy in Dover, NH 

[George Swain]

While challenging logistically, it would be great if any NE 1200 could take advantage of the truly epic nature of the region by including as much of it and its diversity as possible. Looking at the RUSA calendar, lots of 1200Ks seem planned to give folks a chance to "get in a 1200" rather than aspire to be epic destination rides. I am not a big fan of cloverleaf routes. The opportunity to take advantage of New England's unique composition of multiple diverse states should be seized. This is what makes LEL such an extraordinary ride. While it does not have the history, public esprit de corps of PBP, it is unarguably a superior route with a more epic goal of connecting two of the world's greatest cities while taking in a gorgeous and diverse landscape, all of tranquil roads. IMHO, this is also what makes the Portland 400K superior to any others I have ridden.

I'd be happy to help out. 

George

[John D'Elia]

John D’Elia here-It might be repetitive for local riders who do the Berkshire rides, but a clover leaf 1200 could be easily set up with Westfield as home base-there are already one or more of every distance ride to do it with a 400/300/300/200 format with tried and true routes that most of the riders seem to like. Or you could use  one of the 600s with two of the 300s or a 400 and 200, you see what I mean. We used to have some support on those rides but less now in the last few years and no one seems to mind stopping at Cumberland Farms or a 24 hour gas station that has food. Just an idea, since it seems like BMB might have more problems than in has solutions to set up again.

 

From: ne-rand...@googlegroups.com <ne-rand...@googlegroups.com> On Behalf Of George Swain
Sent: Tuesday, September 12, 2023 8:38 AM
To: New England Randonneurs <ne-rand...@googlegroups.com>

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[Pierre Payette]

George, I like your idea. I had been thinking of a route that connected Mt Greylock and the White mountains. I think there is a lot of potential in organizing the route based on scenic destinations. Potentially a lot more work for the volunteers and fewer cheap shelter options, but this was what I sketched up: total 716 miles, could easily be tweaked to include another 34 miles. I tried to include as many scenic areas as I could think of: 

https://ridewithgps.com/routes/44402483.

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[George Swain]

Pierre,

Lovely. Folks who know NE better than me will have more to say about the details. There may be compelling reasons for an out-and-back route on a 1200K for logistical and support reasons, but I would definitely find an out-and-back preferable to a cloverleaf.

George

[Charles Coldwell]

I wonder if an Audax-style (teams with captains riding the same pace) ride of the mega perm would interest people?

https://6state.ner.bike/

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[Phillip Stern]

I’m interested. How many per team?

Sorta like Fleche but without riding 24 hours. 

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[Sarah Bergstrom]

If you’re all riding it as a perm, rather than an audax event, everyone’s technically riding their own perm and you can join up however works for everyone riding.

Sarah

On Sep 13, 2023, at 8:32 PM, Phillip Stern <philli...@gmail.com> wrote:



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[Christian Ratliff]

First a question. The route turns south in New Hampshire are Gorham, but the website has reports this as taking place in Bethel, ME.  We have a family camp in West Bethel, ME which could serve as a control point where the volunteers would have a place to sleep and cover from the elements.

Either way, this route looks incredibly cool!  I would be interested in making a go of it.

Christian

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[Dylan Eberle]

Taking some inspiration from Tsun's discussion of using Colby College as a control back in 2015 for a figure eight type route,  here is a somewhat outside of the box idea that might lessen the burden on potential volunteers for a future 1000-1200. 

Assuming you could make a similar arrangement at a college or university, you could set up a ride starting in the Boston Metro Area and then aim for a college or university at perhaps the 300-450 km mark  as the volunteer staffed control in which riders would have access to sleep/shower/food/drop bag in a dormitory environment. Basically giving you your "Loudeac".  You could then basically run a few loops from that location before returning to Boston via a different route.  This type of set up would mean that NER volunteers would only have to staff the Start/Finish and the midpoint control.  

So for example, if you were able to use Bowdoin College you could run a 400 km route starting in Boston going thru New Hampshire and ending in Brunswick, ME as your first leg. Your second leg could then be a ~250 loop (perhaps inland ME/NH), followed by a 300 km loop (perhaps the Maine Coast), followed by a return to Boston along the coast (250 km). You could of course take this concept and apply to other parts of New England. 

Just figured I'd throw this sort of different logistical idea out there as it might make the most efficient use of volunteers while capturing a bit of that grand randonneur spirit with a dormitory style control providing the 24h food/sleep/shower/mechanical support during the heart of the event.

-Dylan  

[Jacob Layer]

Hello All,

Thanks for the lively discussion and a lot of good ideas!  I've got a list of potential volunteers from this thread and will likely setup a first meeting in October to discuss routing.  For now, an out and back, cloverleaf, or dumbell (Tsun and Dylan's prior suggestion) are likely route designs to take the burden off of volunteer efforts.  I'll setup a meeting for October tomorrow evening.  If you're still interested in volunteering but haven't responded yet, send me an email and I'll add you to the list.

Best,

Jacob

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[John D'Elia]

I think this might be catching on a little bit, I think it might attract a lot of riders who are a little timid about being caught alone on a brevet. I would definitely be interested in participating in something like this.

Sent from my iPhone-John D'Elia, D'Elia  Gillooly DePalma, 700 State St., New Haven Connecticut 06511, 203-891-5310, 203-494-5521, fax 203-891-6948, Jo...@dgdlawct.com

On Sep 13, 2023, at 8:51 PM, 'Christian Ratliff' via New England Randonneurs <ne-rand...@googlegroups.com> wrote:

 First a question. The route turns south in New Hampshire are Gorham, but the website has reports this as taking place in Bethel, ME.  We have a family camp in West Bethel, ME which could serve as a control point where the volunteers would have a place to sleep and cover from the elements.

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