digha agama 28 (02)
TC Nguyen
First, here is the translation of the Chinese Agama from Vietnamese
translation. It
is almost word by word reanslation.
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Digha Agama 28 Potthapa-da sutta
Thus have I heard :
Once the Lord was staying at Sudatta 's garden, ( which was the
garden ) of
Prince Jeta of Sa-vatthi, with his fully community of 1250 monks. Early
in the
morning the Exalted One put on his robe, took his bowl, went into
Sa-vatthi for
alms. He thought :
- It's still early now. Better that I go to the wood where the
Brahmin
Po.t.thapa-da stayed. I will go for alm at right time.
The Exalted One then went to the Brahmin 's wood. When the
Brahmin
Po.t.thapa-da saw the Exalted One coming from distance, he stood up
greeting :
- Welcome ! Welcome ! The shramana Gautama had not been here for
a
while, now what brings you here ? Please be seated. (1)
The Exalted One took the seat, then said to Po.t.thapa-da :
- What is the subject are you discussing here ?
The Brahmin ( Po.t.thapa-da ? ) said :
- Sir, yesterday, many Bramaca`rins ( disciples of Brahma or of
purest
conduct ), Shramanas, Bra-mana ( people of priest caste in India )
gathered at this
Bhramana hall to discuss. They had different views contradicting each
others. Sir,
some Bhramins said :
" there is no causes for the arising of thoughts, there is no
cause for the
anihilation of thoughts. Indeed thoughts can come and go. When they
come, it
means 'thoughts arise'; when they go, it means 'thoughts anihilate' "
(2).
Sir, there are Bhrmains who said :
" The cause of the arising of thoughts is human life span. The
cause of the
anihilation of thoughts is human life span. It's indeed thoughts can
come and go.
When they come, it means 'thoughts arise'; when they go, it means
'thoughts
anihilate' ".
Venerable Gautama, some Brahmins said
" What you say is not right. Some devas with great powers give
thoughts ( to
us ); when devas take thoughts away, thoughts annihilate; when devas
bring
thoughts in, thoughts arise ".
We are pondering, and ( I ) think that the venerable Gautama know
the
solution, that he knows thoughts and the samadhi of extinction ". (3)
The Buddha said to the Brahmins :
- Those arguments are all wrong ( if you say that ) :
" there is no causes for the arising of thoughts, there is no
cause for the
anihilation of thoughts. It's indeed thoughts can come and go. When they
come,
it means 'thoughts arise'; when they go, it means 'thoughts anihilate' "
or :
" The cause of the arising of thoughts is human life span. The
cause of the
anihilation of thoughts is human life span. It's indeed thoughts can
come and go.
When they come, it means 'thoughts arise'; when they go, it means
'thoughts
anihilate' ".
or :
" What you say is not right. Some devas with great powers give
thoughts ( to
us ); when devas take thoughts away, thoughts annihilate; when devas
bring
thoughts in, thoughts arise ".
Brahmins ! There is cause for thoughts to arise, there is cause
for thoughts to
be anihilated.
The Tatha-gata appears in the world, he is the true knower
complete with ten
attributs.
If someone leaves home and pratices the teaching, after he
eradicates the 5
hindrances, he can throw away greed, evil, bad dharmas, he is mindful,
attentive,
he enjoys the pleasure of detaching from desires, he enter the 1st
jhana. He
eradicates the thoughts from desires, from there he has thoughts from
pleasure (
of detaching from desires ).
Brahmins ! From there, we can conclude that " There is cause for
thoughts to
arise, there is cause for thoughts to be anihilated ".
After he eradicates mindfulness, attentiveness, he takes inside
pleasure by
keeping one-pointed mind, no mindfulness, no attentiveness, he attains
the
pleasure born from samadhi, he enters the 2nd jhana. Brahmins ! The
thoughts
from the 1st jhana is annihilated, the thoughts from the 2nd jhana
arises.
From there, we can conclude that " There is cause for thoughts to
arise, there
is cause for thoughts to be anihilated ".
He then detaches from pleasure, and pratices self guarding, keeps
mind
one-pointed, he knows by himself the calmness of the body which is
researced
by the sages, he keeps his mind pure, he enters the 3rd jhana. Brahmins
! The
thoughts from the 2nd jhana is annihilated, the thoughts from the 3rd
jhana
arises.
From there, we can conclude that " There is cause for thoughts to
arise, there
is cause for thoughts to be anihilated ".
He then detaches from pain, from pleasure, eradicates the
sorrowness, the
grasping on pleasure, he guards the pureness and enters the 4th jhana.
Brahmins
! The thoughts from the 3nd jhana is annihilated, the thoughts from the
4rd jhana
arises.
From there, we can conclude that " There is cause for thoughts to
arise, there
is cause for thoughts to be anihilated ".
He throws away all form born from thoughts, he eradicates the
anger, and he
does not mind another form of thoughts, he enter the sphere of
emptiness.
Brahmins ! When all thoughts from form are anihilated, thoughts from the
sphere
of emptiness arises.
From there, we can conclude that " There is cause for thoughts to
arise, there
is cause for thoughts to be anihilated ".
When he gets beyond the sphere of emptiness, he enters the sphere
of
consciousness. Brahmins ! When all thoughts from sphere of emptiness are
anihilated, thoughts from the sphere of consciousness arises.
From there, we can conclude that " There is cause for thoughts to
arise, there
is cause for thoughts to be anihilated ".
When he gets beyond the sphere of consciousness, he enters the
sphere of
non action. Brahmins ! When all thoughts from sphere of consciousness
are
anihilated, thoughts from the sphere of non action arises.
From there, we can conclude that " There is cause for thoughts to
arise, there
is cause for thoughts to be anihilated ".
When he gets rid of the sphere of non action, he enters the phere
of with
thoughts, without thoughts. Brahmins ! When all thoughts from sphere of
non
action are anihilated, thoughts from the sphere of with thoughts,
without thoughts
arises.
From there, we can conclude that " There is cause for thoughts to
arise, there
is cause for thoughts to be anihilated ".
When he gets rid of sphere of with thoughts, without thoughts he
enters the
thought of samadhi of knowing the anihilation. Brahmins ! When all
thoughts
from sphere of with thoughts, without thoughts are anihilated, thoughts
from the
thought of samadhi of knowing the anihialtion arises.
From there, we can conclude that " There is cause for thoughts to
arise, there
is cause for thoughts to be anihilated ".
After he has the thoughts from this samadhi, he thinks : " It's
bad to have
thoughts, it's good to be without thoughts ". But when he thinks like
that, his
subtle thoughts are not anihilated but arise in him coarse thoughts. He
continues
thinking " Now let not thoughts arise, let me not mentate ". When he
does not let
thoughts function, when he stop thinking, subtle thoughts are
anihilated, coarse
thoughts does not arise. When he he does not let thoughts function, when
he
stop thinking, subtle thoughts are anihilated, coarse thoughts does not
arise, he
enters the thought of samadhi of knowing the anihilation.
Brahmins ! Have you ever heard of this gradual eradication of
thoughts ?
The Brahmin said :
- I have never heard of this before.
Then he added :
- Now I think : " thought of existence, thought of non existence,
or think of
this thought, that thought (4), he thinks : " It's bad to have thoughts,
it's good to
be without thoughts ". But when he thinks like that, his subtle thoughts
are not
anihilated but arise in him coarse thoughts. He continues thinking " Now
let not
thoughts arise, let me not mentate ". When he does not let thoughts
function,
when he stops thinking, subtle thoughts are anihilated, coarse thoughts
does not
arise. When he he does not let thoughts function, when he stop thinking,
subtle
thoughts are anihilated, coarse thoughts does not arise, he enters the
thought of
samadhi of knowing the anihilation.
The Buddha said to the Brahmin :
- Excellent ! exellent ! That is
thought-of-samadhi-of-gradualy-eradicating-
thoughts of sages. (5)
The Brahmin said :
- Among those thoughts, which one is supreme ? (6)
The Buddha said :
- Thought of the sphere of non doing is supreme.
- Among those thoughts, which one is the number one supreme ?
(7)
- Among those thoughts, the non thought attained from the
gradual
eradication of thought is the supreme number one.
The Brahmin asked :
- Is there a single thought or are there many thoughts ?
- It's a single thought, not many.
- Is thought the first to arise, then after that knowledge; or
is knowledge the
first to arise, then after that knowledge; or do they arise at the same
time ? (8)
- Thought is the first to arise, knowledge comes later. From
thought is born
knowledge.
- Is thought the self ?
The Buddha said :
- Which kind of man is self ? (9)
- I don't say that man is self (10). I say that the body
compounded of 4
elements, of 6 entrences, born by parents, feed by parents, raised by
parents,
who wear clothes, and who is impermanent, is the self.
The Buddha said :
- Brahmin, you say that the body etc.. is self. Let us put this
problem aside,
let us discuss the arising of thoughts in human, the anihilation of
thoughts in
human.
The brahmin said :
- I don't say that human is self, I say that the sphere of
desire is self.
The Buddha said :
- Let us put this problem aside, let us discuss the arising of
thoughts in
human, the anihilation of thoughts in human.
The brahmin said :
- I don't say that the sphere of desire self, I say that the
sphere of form is self.
The Buddha said :
- Let us put this problem aside, let us discuss the arising of
thoughts in
human, the anihilation of thoughts in human.
The brahmin said :
- I don't say that the sphere of form self, I say that the
sphere of formless, (
sphere of emptiness, sphere of consciousness, sphere of non doing,
sphere of
with thoughts, without thoughts ) is self.
The Buddha said :
- Let us put this problem aside, let us discuss the arising of
thoughts in
human, the anihilation of thoughts in human.
The brahmin said :
- Venerable Gautama, can I know the arising and the anihilation
of thoughts
?
The Buddha said :
- Brahmin, it's difficult for you to know the arising, the
anihilation of
thoughts. Why is it so ? It's because you have different views,
different trainings,
different acceptances, you rely on different matters, you have different
lessons.
(11)
The brahmin said :
- You are right, venerable Gautama. It's difficult for me to know
the arising,
the anihilation of thoughts because I have different views, different
trainings,
different acceptances, I rely on different matters, I have different
lessons. Why ?
Because the self and the world are permanent, only this is true else are
wrong.
Because the self and the world are impermanent, only this is true else
are
wrong.Because the self is permanent, the world is impermanent, only this
is true
else are wrong.The self and the world are neither permanent nor
impermanent,
only this is true else are wrong.The self and the world are finite, only
this is true
else are wrong.The self and the world are infinite, only this is true
else are wrong.
The self and the world are finite and infinite, only this is true else
are wrong.The
self and the world are neither finite nor infinite, only this is true
else are wrong.
The soul and the body are one, only this is true else are wrong. The
soul and the
body are different, only this is true else are wrong. The soul and the
body are not
different, only this is true else are wrong. The soul and the body are
not different,
and are not not different, only this is true else are wrong. There is no
sould and
there is no body, only this is true else are wrong. The Tatha-gata is
anihilated,
only this is true else are wrong. The Tatha-gata is not anihilated, only
this is true
else are wrong. The Tatha-gata is anihilated and non anihilated, only
this is true
else are wrong. The Tatha-gata is not anihilated nor is he not not
anihilated, only
this is true else are wrong.
The Buddha said :
- For " the world is eternal... the Tatha-gata is neither
anihilated nor not
anihilated ", I don't accept those views.
The Brahmin said :
- Venerable Gautama, why don't you accept " the world is
eternal... the
Tatha-gata is neither anihilated nor not anihilated " ?
The Buddha said :
- Because those views does not fit the purpose, does not fit the
dharma, are
not brahma conduct ( right conduct ), are not detachment, are not
not-doing ( wu
wei ), are not moving (12), are not rest (13), are not right knowledge
(14), are not
shramana, are not Nibba-na, that's why I don't accept.
The Brahmin asked :
- What is fitting the purpose, fitting the dharma, the root of
brahma conduct (
right, pure conduct ), wu wei ( not doing ), not desire, unmoved, rest,
right
knowledge, shramana, nibba-na, acceptance ?
The Buddha said to the Brahmin :
- I accept only the truth about suffering, the truth about
origine of suffering,
the truth about eradicating suffering, the truth about the way to the
eradicating of
suffering. Why ? Because they fit the purpose, they fit the dharma, they
are the
root of brahma ( right conduct ), are not desire, are not doing, are not
moving,
are rest, are right knowledge, are shramana, are nibba-na, that's why I
accept.
After his expounding of the Dharma, the Revered One stood up and
parted.
The others Bahmins said to Po.t.thapa-da :
- Why did you say that it's right to the proposition "- For " the
world is
eternal... the Tatha-gata is neither anihilated nor not anihilated ", I
don't accept
those views. " ? Why did you accept this ? We don't accept that this
saying is
right.
Po.t.thapa-da said to those brahmins :
- Gautama said the saying " The self and the world is
eternal.... the
Tatha-gata is not anihilated and is not not anihilated " does not fit
with the
purpose, so why he does not accept it. I too did not accept his saying.
But the
shramana Gautama based on logic ( dharma ), stood by logic ( dharma ),
spoke
from logic ( dharma ), used logic ( dharma ) to renunciate, how can I
refuted it ?
The marvelous saying of Gautama cannot be refuted.
On another occasion, Po.t.thapada and the elephant trainer
Sa-riputta (15)
paid a visit together to the Buddha. After coutious
greetings,Po.t.thapada sat on
one side. The elephant trainer Sa-riputta after the ceremony sat on one
side. The
Brahmin said to the Buddha :
- Not long after your departure from my house, the Brahmins said
to me "
Why do you listen to Gautama and said that this saying of his is right "
- For 'the
world is eternal... the Tatha-gata is neither anihilated nor not
anihilated ', I don't
accept those views. " ? Why did you accept this saying ? We do not agree
with
this. I said to them " I too do not accept the saying of Gautama " - For
'the world
is eternal... the Tatha-gata is neither anihilated nor not anihilated ',
I don't accept
those views ". But the shramana Gautama relied on logic ( dharma ),
stood by
logic ( dharma ), spoke from logic ( dharma ), used the logic ( dharma )
to
renunctiate, how can I refute this saying ? The marvelous saying of
Gautama
cannot be refuted.
The Buddha said to the Brahmin :
- What the other Brahmins said to you is not right ( Why do you
listen to
Gautama and said that this saying of his is right " - For 'the world is
eternal... the
Tatha-gata is neither anihilated nor not anihilated ', I don't accept
those views. "
? Why did you accept this saying ? ). Why ? Because what I have said,
some are
accepted categorically, some are not accepted categorically. What are
the non
categorically accepted ? Those are " The self and the world are eternal
... The
Tatha-gata is not anihilated, and not not anihilated ". I also speak so
(16), but
does not categorically accepted them. That's because those statements
are not for
the purpose, do not fit the dharma, are not the root of brahma conduct (
right
conduct ), are not desireless, are not non doing, are not unmoved, are
not rest,
are not right knowledge, are not shramana, are not nibba-na, so why,
brahmin,
though I speak those sttements, but I do not categorically accept them.
What do I
accepted categorically ? I accept the truth of suffereing, the truth of
the origine of
suffering, the truth of cessation of suffering, the truth of the way to
the cessation
of the suffering. Why ? Because those statements fit the logic ( dharma
), fit the
purpose, are the root of Brahma conduct ( right conduct ), are not
doing, are not
desire, are unmoved, are rest, are right knowledge, are shramana, are
nibba-na.
Brahmin, certain people ascertain that " there is a total peaceful world
". I said to
him : Are you sure there is a total peaceful world ? They said yes. I
said to them :
- Have you ever seen this world ?
- No
- Have you ever seen the devas of this total peaceful world ?
- No
- Have Devas of this total world come and said to you " Your
behaviors are
straight, pure so you will be reborn there. Our behaviors were straight,
pure so
why we are there and enjoy life with others devas there " ?
- No
- Have you ever construct for yourself another form of body with
complete
organs, which leave this body formed of 4 elements ?
- No
- Brahmin, do those shramana, Bramana say truthfully, do they say
logically ?
The Bramin said :
- They say it not truthfully, not logically.
The Buddha said to the Bramin :
- If someone say : I have an affair with a lady, then describe how
she is.
Others ask him :
- Do you know where does she live ? in the west, in the east, in
the south, in
the north ?
- No.
- Do you know where is her province, her district, her village,
her street ?
- No.
- Do you know her caste ? Brahman, Ksatriya, ... ?
- No
-Do you know if she is tall, short, fatty, slim, black, white,
beatiful or ugly ?
- No
- How do you think, Brahmin, what does this one say is it true ?
- No
- Brahmin, those shramana, Brahmins are the same. They say the
untruth.If
someone set up a ladder on an open space, others ask him :
- What do you want to use with it ?
- I want to climb to the upper storey.
- Where is it ?
- I don't know.
- Brahmin, is this man deluded ?
- This man is deluded.
The Buddha said :
- Those shramana, Brahmins are same. They are deluded. They say
the
untruth.
The Buddha said to Po.t.thapa-da :
- You said " The self is this body, formed of 4 elements, with 6
entries, born
from parents, feed, raised, wearing clothes, impermanent ". The
Tatha-gata
considers it impure, pure, free (17). You said " The impure cannot be
eradicated,
the pure cannot arise, we are doomed to be always in the dukkha ". Don't
say so.
Why ? Because the impure can be eradicated, the pure can arise, we are
doomed
to be in the calmness, blisfulness, enjoyableness, awareness and one-
pointedness, intelligence. Brahmin, I say that the sphere of desire, of
emptiness,
of consciousness, of not doing, with and without thoughts are impure, I
also say
they are pure, free. You said " The impure cannot be eradicated, the
pure cannot
arise, we are doomed to be always in the dukkha ". Don't say so. Why ?
Because
the impure can be eradicated, the pure can arise, we are doomed to be in
the
calmness, blisfulness, enjoyableness, awareness and one- pointedness,
intelligence.
At that time, the elephant trainer Sa-riputta said to the Buddha
:
- Venerable Sir, when the body formed of 4 elements exists, at
the same time
there are body in sphere of desire, of form, of emptiness, of
consciousness, of not
doing, of with and without thoughts. Venerable Sir, when the body formed
of 4
elements is, are there bodies in the sphere of desire, of form, of
emptiness, of
consciousness, of not doing, of with and without thoughts ? Venerable
Sir, when
body of sphere of form is, are there bodies in sphere of desire, of
emptiness, of
consicenceness, of not doing, of with and without thoughts ? (18)
The Buddha said to the elephant trainer Sa-riputta :
- When the body formed of 4 elements exists, at the same time
there are
body in sphere of desire, of not desire, of form, of emptiness, of
consciousness, of
non possessing , of with and without thoughts. When the body of the
sphere of
with and without thoughts appears, there is not body in the sphere of
desire, of
form, of emptiness, of consciousness, of not possesing. Elephant
trainer, it is like
milk. Milk transform to curds, from the curds butter, from the butter
ghee, and
from the ghee cream of ghee. ...... When if is under milk form, it is
called milk, it
is not called ghee. Here it is the same, when the body appear in the
sphere of
desire, there is not body in the sphere of form, etc..., in the sphere
of with and
without thoughts. By analogy we can say that when body is in the sphere
of with
and without thoughts, there will be not body in the sphere of desire, of
form
etc,.., of non possesing. How do you think, elephant trainer, if someone
asks you
" if your body is in the past, do you have body in the present, future ?
If you have
the body in the future, will you have the body in the past, present ? If
you have
the present body, will you have the past, the present body ? What will
you
answer ?
The elephant trainer said :
- If some one asks me this question, I will answer " when I have
the past
body, I only have this body, I don't have the past, the present body.
When I have
the future, I only have this body, I do not have the past, the present
body. When I
have the present body, I have only this body, I don't have the past the
future
body.
- Elephant trainer, it's the same here. When there is body formed
by 4
elements, there is not body in the sphere of desire, of form ... , of
with and
without thoughts. From there by analogy we can conclude that when there
is
body in the sphere of with and without thoughts, there will not be body
in the
sphere of desire, ..., of not doing.
If someone asks you " Was you dead before, will you take birth in
future, are you
living in present " What will be your answer ?
The elephant trainer said :
- If someone asks me this question, I will answer " I was dead in
the past, I
will take birth in the future, I am now in present.
The Buddha said :
- It's the same here, elephant trainer. When the body formed of 4
elements,
the organs in the sphere of desire, exists, there is not body in the
sphere of
desire... of with and without thoughts. By analogy, when the body is in
the
sphere of with and without thoughts, there will not be body in the
sphere of
desire ....
The elephant trainer said :
- Reverend sir, now I take refuge to the Buddha, to the dharma,
to the
sangha. I like to be a layman in your right dharma. From now on, till I
pass away,
I will not kill, will not steal, will not have obscene, will not lie,
will not take
intoxicant.
The Brahmin Po.t.thapa-da said to the Buddha :
- May I leave home to be ordained in your dharma ?
The Buddha said :
- Someone of another doctrine likes to be ordained in my
doctrine, he must
study and be scrutinized by others favorably, then he might be ordained.
Though
the rule is so, but it is flexible.
The Brahmin said :
- Someone of another doctrine likes to be ordained in my doctrine,
he must
study and be scrutinized by others favorably, then he might be ordained.
Now I
will take the 4 years (?), to suty and be scrutinized by others, then I
will be
ordained.
The Buddha said :
- Though the rule is so, but it is flexible.
After that, the Brahmin was ordained monk. Not long after, by
steady having
faith in, by perseverence, this Bramin in the doctrine experienced by
himself, that
the cycle of birth and death is broken, what has been done is done,
there is not
the after life, he became arhant.
At that time Po.t.thapa-da heard the dharma and was glad to
pratice it.
===============================================
Notes
(1) Typically of Asian ( Chinese, Vietnamese ) style of greeting.
(2) Different from Pali Canon. I think the Pali Canon is corrupted here.
(3) Word by word :
tri : know
die^.t : anihilation, eradication, etc..
ddi.nh : samadhi.
(4) In-intelligible, illogical.
(5) Word by word.
(6) Original text :
Trong ca'c tu+o+?ng a^'y, : Among those thoughts
tu+o+?ng na`o la` : which one is
tu+o+?ng vo^ thu+o+.ng : the supreme thought.
Vo^ : non, not; thu+o+.ng : upper, higher. ( we use to mean : not
anything higher
than )
(7) Original text :
Trong ca'c tu+o+?ng a^'y : Among those thoughts,
tu+o+?ng na`o la` : which one is
dde^. nha^'t : number one
vo^ thu+o+.ng : supreme
(8) See my comment later.
(9) Original text :
O^ng ba?o : You say
ha.ng ngu+o+`i na`o la` nga~ : what kind of person is self.
This is an obscure sentence.
I guess that which do you point to be called self.
(10) Original text :
To^i kho^ng ba?o : I don't say that
con ngu+o+`i la` nga~ : human is self.
Another obscure statement.
(11) See my comment later.
(12) ti.ch : quiet
die^.t : dead.
(13) chi? : rest
tu+'c : stop
(14) cha'nh : right
gia'c : perceptions, awareness.
(15) In Pali canon, his name is Citta, or Kitta.
(16) Original text :
Ta : I
cu~ng no'i : also speak
lo+`i a^'y : those sentences.
(17) Original text :
Co`n Nhu+ Lai : as for the Tatha-gata
cho sa('c tha^n ddo' la` : ( he ) considers this body as
o^ nhie^~m : impure,
la` thanh ti.nh : pure,
la` gia?i thoa't : free.
Sounds Chinese logic to me. Indian do not use this logic as I know.
(18) Incomprehensible sentence.