In a nutshell..was Question
Aubrey Taylor
I have read just about all that has been said about Candace's
original "Question" mostly by both by herself and Jim" and the posts
have become longer and longer with each additional post ...with
the exception of the comment by Petrus who deleted all the hate
stuff.
I do agree with Candace in as much that the words on the statue do
single out men in the major or perhaps, sole perpetrators of
violence against women.
Perhaps all our concerns just be addressed if the statue said
something like:
ษออออออออออออออออออออออออออออออออออออออออออออออออออป
บ We solemly pray in our own way and remember บ
บ All the victims who suffered from violence of บ
บ any kind, no matter from whom, or whatever cause.บ
บ We recognize the violence that lies within all บ
บ of us and pray that the spirit which resides บ
บ within us will subdue that violence. บ
บ Give us the understanding to forgive all บ
บ those who have trespassed against us. บ
บ Amen....so be it. บ
ศออออออออออออออออออออออออออออออออออออออออออออออออออผ
Best I can do at short notice,
Aub
--
Aubs guide for a positive outlook.
I never read the newspaper in the morning. If things are that bad,
someone will tell me. A person who tells you you have to be realistic
is really saying "Be negative like me". Aubrey Taylor
Candace Lain Faucher
Aubrey Taylor (ar...@FreeNet.Carleton.CA) writes:
> I have read just about all that has been said about Candace's
> original "Question" mostly by both by herself and Jim" and the posts
> have become longer and longer with each additional post ...with
> the exception of the comment by Petrus who deleted all the hate
> stuff.
> I do agree with Candace in as much that the words on the statue do
> single out men in the major or perhaps, sole perpetrators of
> violence against women.
>
> Perhaps all our concerns just be addressed if the statue said
> something like:
>
> ษออออออออออออออออออออออออออออออออออออออออออออออออออป
> บ We solemly pray in our own way and remember บ
> บ All the victims who suffered from violence of บ
> บ any kind, no matter from whom, or whatever cause.บ
> บ We recognize the violence that lies within all บ
> บ of us and pray that the spirit which resides บ
> บ within us will subdue that violence. บ
> บ Give us the understanding to forgive all บ
> บ those who have trespassed against us. บ
> บ Amen....so be it. บ
> ศออออออออออออออออออออออออออออออออออออออออออออออออออผ
Much more appropriate and acknowledging how each of us is responsible
for making changes. Men and women.
CLF
> Best I can do at short notice,
> Aub
>
>
>
> --
> Aubs guide for a positive outlook.
> I never read the newspaper in the morning. If things are that bad,
> someone will tell me. A person who tells you you have to be realistic
> is really saying "Be negative like me". Aubrey Taylor
--
" Your reason and your passion are the rudder and the sails of your
seafaring soul. For reason, ruling alone, is a force confining;
and passion, unattended, is a flame that burns to its own destruction."
Jim Poushinsky
Candace Lain Faucher (dl...@FreeNet.Carleton.CA) writes:
> Aubrey Taylor (ar...@FreeNet.Carleton.CA) writes:
>>
>> Perhaps all our concerns just be addressed if the statue said
>> something like:
>>
>> ษออออออออออออออออออออออออออออออออออออออออออออออออออป
>> บ We solemly pray in our own way and remember บ
>> บ All the victims who suffered from violence of บ
>> บ any kind, no matter from whom, or whatever cause.บ
Is this your prayer at the cenotaph on Remembrance Day, Nov. 11th?
If this is how you wish all memorial services for people who die
violent deaths, then surely we must change all the war memorials, the
texts spoken, poems, etc. Also, all the memorial services for slain
police officers need to be made generic too. If what you are suggesting
only applies to a memorial for innocent women killed by violent men,
then you are being a hypocrite by seeking to suppress people's freedom
to grieve (a combination of our rights of free speech and of public
assembly).
>> บ We recognize the violence that lies within all บ
>> บ of us and pray that the spirit which resides บ
>> บ within us will subdue that violence. บ
There is no reason to believe that "violence lies within all of us".
The dead women who the memorial remembers were not violent people.
It's an abomination to imply that they were, in a memorial service
dedicated to them. Their killers were men. You are seeking to suppress
that fact. Why? I assume you have no trouble accepting the fact that
the gender doing the killing in two world wars were also men?
>> บ Give us the understanding to forgive all บ
>> บ those who have trespassed against us. บ
Few human beings are capable of forgiving someone who refuses to admitthey did wrong. Publicly denying the victims of male violence the right
to openly grieve their loss is not going to help them forgive the violent
men who have grievously hurt them, and who continue to do so. It is not
God who needs to act here. It is the people who are denying the ongoing
abuse of women by men who need to understand and take supportive action.
Seeking to bann protests against male violence is part of the problem for
battered women and children, not the solution.
> Much more appropriate and acknowledging how each of us is responsible
> for making changes. Men and women.
> CLF
Only if you believe battered and dead women and children are equally
responsible for their abuse. That's certainly what the perpetratrors would
have us believe. I fail to see how your position is different from theirs,
perhaps you could explain?
--
\.!./
Jim Poushinsky . _: * o :_ . I seem to be a verb.
ae080@freenet. :. v .: - Buckminster Fuller
carleton.ca / : \
Aubrey Taylor
Jim Poushinsky (ae...@FreeNet.Carleton.CA) writes:
> Candace Lain Faucher (dl...@FreeNet.Carleton.CA) writes:
>> Aubrey Taylor (ar...@FreeNet.Carleton.CA) writes:
>>>
>>> Perhaps all our concerns just be addressed if the statue said
>>> something like:
>>>
>>> ษออออออออออออออออออออออออออออออออออออออออออออออออออป
>>> บ We solemly pray in our own way and remember บ
>>> บ All the victims who suffered from violence of บ
>>> บ any kind, no matter from whom, or whatever cause.บ
>
> Is this your prayer at the cenotaph on Remembrance Day, Nov. 11th?
> If this is how you wish all memorial services for people who die
> violent deaths, then surely we must change all the war memorials, the
> texts spoken, poems, etc. Also, all the memorial services for slain
> police officers need to be made generic too. If what you are suggesting
> only applies to a memorial for innocent women killed by violent men,
> then you are being a hypocrite by seeking to suppress people's freedom
> to grieve (a combination of our rights of free speech and of public
> assembly).
Jim, I respectfully suggest you have missed the point of my post
almost entirely. Perhaps the time has come for such a prayer although
My wording could be improved. On the subject of war and that kind of
violence, please remember that politicians create such things like
for example the madman Adolph Hitler. Violence was necessary to
thwart the evil goals of world domination. I know you seem to
question the use and memory of those who died protecting the
democratic peoples of this earth. Those of us who served and lost
friends and relatives both in service and civlians during that
war, prefer to take a couple on minutes once each year to
remember their ultimate sacrifice. The very sacrifice that
allows you to speak freely and disrespectfully.>
>>> บ We recognize the violence that lies within all บ
>>> บ of us and pray that the spirit which resides บ
>>> บ within us will subdue that violence. บ
>
> There is no reason to believe that "violence lies within all of us".
Of course there is Jim. What if had happenned along and witnessed
you as a tad being buggered. It is much more than likely that I
would not only have stopped the sob, but would have at least
hurt him badly.
> The dead women who the memorial remembers were not violent people.
> It's an abomination to imply that they were, in a memorial service
> dedicated to them. Their killers were men. You are seeking to suppress
> that fact. Why? I assume you have no trouble accepting the fact that
> the gender doing the killing in two world wars were also men?
>
On the contrary. Why confine the statue to just women killed by
men? I merely wish that we could find a middle ground where we
all abhor violence of any kind. Many women in the armed foeces
during world war 2 were directly involved in the end result of
battles.
>>> บ Give us the understanding to forgive all บ
>>> บ those who have trespassed against us. บ
>
> Few human beings are capable of forgiving someone who refuses to admit
> they did wrong. Publicly denying the victims of male violence the right
> to openly grieve their loss is not going to help them forgive the violent
> men who have grievously hurt them, and who continue to do so. It is not
> God who needs to act here. It is the people who are denying the ongoing
> abuse of women by men who need to understand and take supportive action.
> Seeking to bann protests against male violence is part of the problem for
> battered women and children, not the solution.
>
>No sane person can deny the abuse of women by men any more than we
can deny the victims of abuse of women or even sometimes at the
hands of children. You seem and to ignore this trueism.
Much more appropriate and acknowledging how each of us is responsible
>> for making changes. Men and women.
>> CLF
>
> Only if you believe battered and dead women and children are equally
> responsible for their abuse. That's certainly what the perpetratrors would
> have us believe. I fail to see how your position is different from theirs,
> perhaps you could explain?
> --
> \.!./
> Jim Poushinsky . _: * o :_ . I seem to be a verb.
> ae080@freenet. :. v .: - Buckminster Fuller
> carleton.ca / : \
Cheers,
Aub.
Candace Lain Faucher
Back to square one. A couple of things to take note of. The replacement
which Aub contributed was not a sample of an "all and everything." It
was a sincere attempt to change (and rightfully so) how the words on the
statue single out men as being the sole enemy.
And, because her contribution does change that stance, it is more
appropriate, in my opinion. Certain that she did not spend a couple of
hours in creating it - could be very easily amended somewhat.
The statue (as far as I am aware of) does not acknowledge children either.
It is speaking of women who have been killed by men - period.
Again, unless you want to fill up this entire city with similar statues,
of all of those who have been wrongfully treated - and by whom - then this
present statue needs to change the wording which singles out men as the
sole enemy.
Now, you have made it quite clear that you would agree to such. I
personally feel that this would perpetuate hate and anger and move away
from forgiveness - which in turn, is stepping backward not forward.
Women most definitely can be abusive. And, since they are still the main
caregiver, can cause extensive harm to children. Where do you think some
of these angry men come from?
The bottom line is this. We are in this together. To fight abuse (to all)
as a united force. Men and women.
To consistantly point out all of the short comings of each of us (yes,
each of us being guilty) is not productive.
The stats on how many women have been abused compared to the stats of how
many men e.t.c. e.t.c. - pointing our fingers at one another .....
unproductive.
To begin as early as grade one - continue on right through to graduation
in the secondary level; unfiltered educating on the harmful effects of
abuse;steps/skills to deal with abuse e.t.c.
I would sooner see my tax dollar/s going into such a program than a statue
which does nothing except continue the "hate."
And, since this present government has recently cut 3 billion dollars to
our educational system ..... would seem that they are continuing on the
route of foolish band-aid solutions .... may appease the narrow minded,
but not those of us who understand how statues such as the one we have
been disccussing, perpetuate hate, moving away from concrete solutions.
CLF
\.!./
> Jim Poushinsky . _: * o :_ . I seem to be a verb.
> ae080@freenet. :. v .: - Buckminster Fuller
> carleton.ca / : \
Aubrey Taylor
All your points are well taken Candace....except one. <GRIN>.
I'm a "he".
Cheers,
Aub
Candace Lain Faucher
Apologise.
CLF
> Cheers,
> Aub
>
>
> --
> Aubs guide for a positive outlook.
> I never read the newspaper in the morning. If things are that bad,
> someone will tell me. A person who tells you you have to be realistic
> is really saying "Be negative like me". Aubrey Taylor