rig tension

[yac...@gmail.com]

One of the biggest faults ive found here in nz is skippers are putting
far too much tension on there side stays mainly there lowers. last
weekend we had a skipper whose boat wasnt going to good kept screwing
up on the puffs he approached me to see what i thought as soon as i
looked down his mast i could see the problem his l \owers didnot have
enough tension on them which created a curved mast once we tightened
up the lowers this then allowed the top of the mast to fall off in the
gusts which in turn stopped the screwing up he then went out in the
next 2 races and one them so the moral of the story is concentrate on
them lowers when you are setting up your boat you will be surprised at
the results Cheers Browny KZ21

[fun]

Thanks Jim , thats good advice. I see a lot of our guys trying to pull
the sails on too tight as well or putting the mast up wrongly. A
little bit of adjustment and a good look at the way the rig is sitting
before they plonk it in the water would also help. My mast has gone
overboard so much in the last six weeks that it has this decided look
about it. Right now , I'm wary of anybody close to me. .

Anyone who is thinking of coming with us down to sail with Wazza
should contact Steve at the Ancient Mariners for details first,
PLEASE.
I should also mention that there is a Newsletter on 12metres in
general, including Nautic 12s at www.dldirect.net
with pictures look under "12 Metre Group". And Browny keep the
"screwing up" to a minmum other wise we might have a senior moment?
Steve.

[Jim Brown]

Sorry for the confusion gentlemen i stand corrected i did contradict myself it was the lowers that we tightened but it certainly made a difference so istill stand by my advice the uppers are just there to hold your mast upright the secret is in the lowers hope this appology has unconfused the confused Cheers Browny

On Fri, Apr 25, 2008 at 8:00 PM, fun <shcr...@bigpond.net.au> wrote:

Thanks Jim , thats good advice. I see a lot of our guys trying to pullJust got back

[macca]

Allthough to some extent i agree with what you are saying i think the
real problem is that the rigs that are being used do not have enough
stiffness or controll. To me it seems that the rig should not be such
a large part of the tunning procees .I believe that tuning should be
done through sail shape rather than mast bend .

> --
> Regards
>
> Jim Brown
> Papakura, Auckland
> NZ- Hide quoted text -
>
> - Show quoted text -

[fun]

I would have thought mast bend & sail shape were interrelated?

[fun]

Like how do you flatten your main up the top as the wind gets up? We
all know that sails are cut for a certain range of wind speed. What
happens when we get outside that range as invariately it does? Whether
high or low?

[Jim Brown]

The  mast bend and sail shape are interrelated but unless you get those stays to hold everything in place your pushing .... uphill as for flattening the top of the main asthe wind gets up i pull on a bit more backstay 

[fun]

I do as well but I wondering what Macca does?

[macca]

the ideal as i see it is to controll sail shape independant of the
back stay how many full size boats have the ability to bend the mast
wiih the back stay.As our boats are set up what the backstay realy
does is tension the forstay.On my boat i use the jumpers mast ram and
Boom vang to controll sail shape.I would allso direct you to the delta
yacht clubs website and the article on there new vector twin spreader
rig which has uppers lowers and mid stays to control mast shape with a
maximum back stay tension of 2,5 kgs if it works for ec12 rigs why are
we trying to reinvent the wheel .

[macca]

allso thinking about it if you increase backstay tension to flatten
the top of the main does that not really indicate that the mast bend
was incorrect to start with To me i believe that increasing the bend
at the top of the mast if the mast shape was correct to start with
would allow the top of the main to open similer to the effect of
loosening the boom vang and allowing the boom to rise slightly

> > - Show quoted text -- Hide quoted text -

[fun]

The short answer is " no it doesn't" for it is gives you less control
where you need more control . In this case at the bottom of the main
sail near the boom and near the top of the main sail near the top
clew. This bending on the backstay is not in heaps amount. The
backstay is only brought up in little bits to flatten that little bit.
So how do you flatten the top of the Main sail by using the by
loosening the vang? This gives you the whole mainsail flapping in the
wind and it is exactly what you don't need. And Macca , I don't know
what a Jumpers Mast Ram is? Is this allowable on a Nautic?

[macca]

in the rules you are alloud to have both jumperstruts at the top of
the mast to help controll mast bend.As you well know a mast ram is
attached at the base of the mast to controll the lower portion around
the area of the boom.It replaces the alloy angl that is fitted to the
boats when they are originally delivered The mast ram has the
advantage of being
adjustablei the On

[macca]

Hey fun my grammer may be lousey but i believe that you got your wish
at least there is a discussion on the site.Have you had a look at the
delta site i would be interested in your comments

[macca]

In answer to a previouse question i adjust the jumpers(no not the
wooly type) to flatten the main at the top of the mast.In this way i
do not alter the relationship between the stays ,backstay forstay or
overall rig tens

[fun]

I'm not having trouble with you gramar, just the idea that putting
some back stay on is not the right thing to do when one is trying to
flatten the top of the main. Let me beg to differ? I will have a look
at the site.

[fun]

Well Macca , I went into the site but you will have to point in the
right directions. Its a big site and there is some body just "waffling
along" about crap.I couldn't see "anything at a glance" about Jumper
Mast Rams? And Macca , you got to understand that this site is all
about sailing in next to nothing wind. They get 4 knots they think
they are in a hurricane, I've been there!

[fun]

I was in San Francisco'sGolden Gate park Model Yacht club in 2000 for
a 3 day Marblehead regatta ( Free Sailing ) and a gust of wind came
through and you could see the whites of the local skipper's eyes at 50
paces and the most it blew was 6 knots. I 'm not saying anything here
except that they are not used to this sort of wind. Just last Saturday
I got an Email from my mate in SFMYC who said and I quote from his
email" M race on Saturday North east winds, Bad gust and a real
rippling effect on the water Mike ...'s boat sunk another guy broke
mast". (he sent a photo to prove it) and I don't think it was blowing
6 knots ... again?? If I can get Neville to post it I will send him
the photo. Now I know this is getting off the subject somewhat from
what we are talking about but I do believe in Horses for courses. FUN

[macca]

This is all very interesting but lets not assume that light winds are
the order of the day.If theses skippers had this type of problem with
6 knot gusts thats fine .But I would be supriesed if they were
carrying rigs designed for anything over 5 knots .If they were
expecting 5 to 10 knots I am sure they would have been using different
rigs.Allso the generalization your post implys Is that American
sailers only sail in light breezes and that there rigs are designed
accordingly.If this were true I dont believe that an American would
have won the ec12 competition in N Z a couple of years ago in strong
breezes.I believe his name may have been Rick West but I am ready to
be corrected on the name as i am only working from memory.The website
that I was directing you to can be found at www.ec12.info/rig%20Vector.htm
I hope you find it as interesting as i do.

> ...
>
> read more »- Hide quoted text -

[fun]

So Jim, can you give me some thoughts and what I have to look for when
I tighten the lowers on the mast?

> ...
>
> read more »

[Jim Brown]

First of all make sure your uppers are holding the mast in an upright position i use a plumb bob hanging from the cieling of the garageto make sure that this is so with enough tension on them to stop it from falling over the side. Ithen lay the boat on its side before adjusting the lowers making sure the mast looking down it is nice and straight i then start to play with the lowers again with just enough tension on them to complement the shape of the mainsail ive found that too much tension creates too much fullnessto close to the mast so with a little bit of playing around you will achieve a nice airfoil shape and hopefully next time out you will fly cheers Browny

[fun]

Jim, I'm sorry, I don't understand? Why isithe lower hanging ... with
the plumb bob hanging over the side... from the cieling? Falling over
the side of what? Can you clarify this a bit please.

On May 4, 1:38 pm, "Jim Brown" <yach...@gmail.com> wrote:
> First of all make sure your uppers are holding the mast in an upright
> position i use a plumb bob hanging from the cieling of the garageto make
> sure that this is so with enough tension on them to stop it from falling
> over the side. Ithen lay the boat on its side before adjusting the lowers
> making sure the mast looking down it is nice and straight i then start to
> play with the lowers again with just enough tension on them to complement
> the shape of the mainsail ive found that too much tension creates too much
> fullnessto close to the mast so with a little bit of playing around you will
> achieve a nice airfoil shape and hopefully next time out you will fly cheers
> Browny
>

> ...
>
> read more »

[Mr bob Atkinson]

Is plumb bob a new member ?

[fun]

Isn't it great , just as we mention a BOB , one pops up. Could this be
a Bob each way?

> ...
>
> read more »

[Mr bob Atkinson]

The procedure I follow is as follows; first level the boat fore & aft beam
to beam, then check the mast as to being upright, then start work on the
spreaders .I also use a small electric fan directed onto the sails to help
check the shape.

[Jim Brown]

No Mr plumb bob is not a new member but it is an essential piece of equipment ive found in setting up my masts. Thanks for simplifying it BOB.

[fun]

Well I'm glad you two are happy. My spreaders are the fixed variety!
So lets start from the beginning and work forward. OKay. I level the
boat for and aft and crossways, then I Plumb Bob the mast to the water
line? Okay then what do we do?

On May 5, 2:36 pm, "Jim Brown" <yach...@gmail.com> wrote:
> No Mr plumb bob is not a new member but it is an essential piece of
> equipment ive found in setting up my masts. Thanks for simplifying it BOB.
>

> ...
>
> read more »

[fun]

I'm glad you two are happy! My spreaders are fixed, so I can't adjust
them?? Now, I take it the boat is trimmed, it is plumb on the water
line and athwartships. What do we do now?

On May 5, 2:36 pm, "Jim Brown" <yach...@gmail.com> wrote:
> No Mr plumb bob is not a new member but it is an essential piece of
> equipment ive found in setting up my masts. Thanks for simplifying it BOB.
>

> ...
>
> read more »

[Mr bob Atkinson]

After all that hard work forget the spreaders and use the electric fan to
cool down !

[yac...@gmail.com]

Fun i can understand now why your mast is always falling over the side
if you cant understand what i said. Bob has simplified it for you. I
must admit the deletion of any punctuation does not help but im
concerving my ink. Cheers Browny

[fun]

Fellas , there seems to be something missing in the translation.

On May 5, 2:36 pm, "Jim Brown" <yach...@gmail.com> wrote:
> No Mr plumb bob is not a new member but it is an essential piece of
> equipment ive found in setting up my masts. Thanks for simplifying it BOB.
>

> ...
>
> read more »

[fun]

I keep posting but nutting happens??

On May 5, 2:36 pm, "Jim Brown" <yach...@gmail.com> wrote:
> No Mr plumb bob is not a new member but it is an essential piece of
> equipment ive found in setting up my masts. Thanks for simplifying it BOB.
>

> ...
>
> read more »

[macca]

Jim i am intriged the description of the way you set up your rig is
totaly opposite 0f what i have read in other websites in both ec12
and 1 meter the accepted method is to align the mast side to side with
the lowers and adjust the uppers after .Why do you think your method
works better than the accepted norm?Or is it just personal preferance.

[Jim Brown]

Its worked for me over the years, dont forget the 1 metre has only one set of stays un fortunately.