progress

[starboard]

better sails--vector rigs(nz version)--new A rig, all from the right
side of the Tasman .apart from the original idea
we look forward to some update info from the other side of the
Tasman.Also check out the NEW razor sharp rudder from Neville.Power
Sails as mentioned by Nev are developing a new Main sail altered
panels improved shape .we hope to trial the test sail early next
week.As an aside some debate is on going about the stubby set up on
another 12 metre yacht..................

[fun]

It would be good if you told us a bit more. After all it is not a
secret society is it? And how would we know anything if we are across
the puddle? And just remember the other 12 metre class, all those
boats are not the same. Not like our boats! So carry on with your
"vector rigs" and your "razor sharp rudders "for it is all grist to
the mill. Till one day your boats don't look like ours. Then you will
be happy ?

[Mr bob Atkinson]

Grist to the Mill ! well the point to having a mill would be to produce some
thing. Vector rigs have been mentioned before.............Triple Y continue
to try and improve the product in what ever way we can this includes slim
rudder designs,smaller power packs ect.Our latest work is adapting the
Nautic winged keel to carry small wheels
At the rear to assist elderly skips getting there boat to the
water....................And how would we know anything if we are across the
puddle. Try Google.
Any ideas about working out the speed the Nautic,s do compared to a full
sized boat ?
Some one just called Starboard i will have to go .

[macca]

Gentlemen and i am using this term hopefully if a nautic 12 owner
wishes to improve his boat within the rules all power to him We can
all learn from this type of experimentation.As many off you are well
aware my boat kz 22 sports many inovations remote backstay,jib trim,
mast ram etc All totaly legal the VECTOR RIG is just a progression in
the boats evolution.Although it is a one design class it still allows
each individule skipper lattitude within the rules for personal
preferance .After all we are not talking about increased sail area or
lighter boats or even shorter hulls so lets stop the chatter about the
boat being different accross the ditch as all nautic 12 must still
comply with the rules.Improved rudder design which is available to all
skippers from the manufacturer is just a case off the manufacturer
trying to improve there product.I personaly dont have one off these
rudders and at this time can see no need to change.iRob Mcpherson
Publicity officer nz nautic 12 association

> > another 12 metre yacht..................- Hide quoted text -
>
> - Show quoted text -

[Jim Brown]

well said Rob i also am happy with my set up rudder and all,  keep it simple thats my motto, less to go wrong.

[fun]

My Motto is KEEP IT ONE DESIGN. Looking at the rules , I can't see the
mention of "Sharp Rudders or Vector Rigs"? While we don't mind them
inproving their product, we do object to them changing their product.
A sharp rudder is one of those changes.

On May 14, 4:51 pm, "Jim Brown" <yach...@gmail.com> wrote:
> well said Rob i also am happy with my set up rudder and all, keep it simple
> thats my motto, less to go wrong.

> On Tue, May 13, 2008 at 9:33 PM, macca <rob.mcpher...@0800labour.co.nz>

> --
> Regards
>
> Jim Brown
> Papakura, Auckland
> NZ

[fun]

What you people fail to realise is this type of One-design is taken on
trust. Now how would you like it if we started changing things and say
"well you can buy it off us if you like". If you want to change
something , why not talk about it . Now if you want to just change as
your publicity officer is saying then you can go and get knotted.

[macca]

Fun in order to stop any confusion i think it would be advantagus for
me to go into detail on some of your concerns Firstly what is a Vector
rig .A Vector rig is simply the name given to a rig in america being
used on ec12s .In simple terms it is a 2 spreader 11.1 grovey section
mast with uppers, mids and lower stays.The rig that Nevile is trialing
is simply a 11.1 grovey with twin spreaders and uppers and lower
stays.All dimensions are as per the nautic 12 rules as you wrote
them.If you look through our rules and i will quote from them"One or
two sets of spreaders may be used they shall not protrude further out
than half beam of the hull at mast position " allso and again i quote
from our rules "Deck attachment of stays shall be for one main set
stays and may have one or two sets of lowers supporting stays each
side" I have quoted the rules word for word hear.The new mainsail that
is to be trialed is in all dimensions the same one that is on your
boat and mine.The sail maker has simply moved the position of the
seems in order to possibly improve the sail shape.This is no different
to you buying sails from"black magic sails or an australian sail
maker .Each sail maker makes there sails with different seam
positions.No where in the rules as written buy you does it specify
that sails can only be bought from one source.As long as the
mesurments comply with the rating rules they are legal.As per the
rudder the profile shape and dimensions are the same as on our boats
all neville is trying to do is improve the product he is experimenting
with a sharper profile on the leading edge weather this rudder will go
into production remains to be sean the test rudder was produced from
one of the rudders that were returned from one of the original boats
when the mk2 rudder that we all use now were provided. feel free to
ask me any questions regarding what we are doing in nz at any time rob
mcpherson nautic 12 publicity officer

> > > NZ- Hide quoted text -

[macca]

I wold allso likr to ad a reply to your comment re new a rig.Neville
and i have been in discussion about pruducing a larger rig for the
nautics for lite conditions using a taller mast and increased sail
area.This does not mean that all boats would require this rig to be
competative as both neville and i are fully aware that these rigs
would be illegal.There is no attempt to change the rules to permit
these rigs nor any expectation of doing so.

> > - Show quoted text -- Hide quoted text -

[macca]

i hope that you can now see that there is nothing being done in nz
with reguards to the improvments being trialed that falls outside the
rules as you wrote them.With the exception of the discussion between
nevile and myself reguarding the taller rig.But as i have said we are
aware that this possibly taller rig would be illegal if we ever built
them at this stage there are no plans in place to do so.Rob mcpherson
nautic 12 publicity officer

[fun]

Sorry There is no such rule that says "one or two sets of lowers". I
see you have a propencity of using your own terms which is confusing ,
Example "compression strut / mast rams" now I may know what your
talking about but others reading this may not. Now under the heading
"PROGRESS" you ( the OFFICIAL publicity Officer ) is saying we can get
a rudder from TYY. I'm being picky here but we need to balance these
things to push the one design and if two Officials are doing these
"experimentations" then you should be upfront about them at the
start . I had Neville telling me the other day about "sharp rudders"
on the phone. I don't want to know about sharp rudders. If your having
a discussion on Vectors Rig , I want to hear what they are before I
have to ask you, Why , Because you keep making these statements under
your Official Office , The Publicity officer of the Nautic 12
Association. I have already had enquiries about Sharp Rudders.

Perhaps you might give us a disatation about getting more people,
clubs into sailing Nautic 12s.

President Australian Nautic 12 Association.

[fun]

And the second thing is that this class being a ONE DESIGN it doesn't
have multipul rudder designs. Under the Nautic one design rule a
rudder can only be changed in the event of loss or breakage! It will
be a brave Manufacturer who will put out two different Rudders. As I
said in my previous post, I would have thought you would be doing more
important things than this. There is a whole World out there for you
to show Nautic 12s too.

You might think the running for Nautic 12s is over . Its not, there
are people out there who still want to pull you down as a class.
Neville wants to sell boats and we need to increase our numbers but we
can't do it, doing what What we are doing right now. This doesn't put
one new boat on the water but I bet you there are people reading this
who might be saying ,,, well I don't know ,, the're arguing about it
already? As I said to Neville I have enough to do with out buggerising
about with this. We have another A2 boat coming along here with no
keel . I think they are thinking of using the hull and a Challenge12
type keel on it. This will give us problems for they become "Weed
Free", Like Ec12s, whereas we are not. I can't see that they will get
enough people to do it. So If you think is is only going to effect us
in OZ , think again.
No we are not going into a Canterbury Js.

[macca]

fun you must rereadthe rules the points i quotedwere taken directly
from the rules as you wrote them and as are published in the officle
web sitethat is why they were in quotation marks if it would be easier
for you i will count the number of linesdown the page were you can
find them

> ...
>
> read more »- Hide quoted text -

[macca]

Further to my previouse post section 3 of the rules sub heading Height
of mast paragraph 2 states and again I quote" One or two sets of
spreaders may be used.They shall not protured further out than a half
beam of the hull at mast position." Under the section Deck attachments
paragraph 1" Deck attachment of stays shall be for one main set stays
and may have one or two sets of lowers supporting stays each side."
Again as I said in my previouse post I am quoting directly from the
rules that you wrote and that are published on the web site Rob
Mcpherson nautic 12 publicity officer

[macca]

In reguard to what am I doing to further the cause of nautic 12s I
would direct you to the new post re winter series.Where I advise the
membership of the sponshership that I have secured to run this series

Rob Mcpherson nautic 12 publicity officer

[macca]

ALLSO YOUR COMMENT ABOUT MY USING CONFUSING TERMS IS NOTED.In future I
will limit the terms I use to what you have put in the rules such as
jenny strut, gooseneck, mast prop/compression strut etc all to be
found within the rules as written by you. If you require to know were
these items are mentioned can I direct you to section 3 mast, sub
section 2 paragraph 11 of the rules Rob mcpherson Nautic 12 publicity
officer

[starboard]

Just shows you have to be carefull what you say,with a touch of humour
i mentioned wheeled Nautic 12,and low and behold i get 4 inq about
them.I have searched the rules and cannot find any mention of
wheels.................
Talking of rules if i remember quite a lot of thinking ,talking took
part before the rules as is were settled on,so why is there cries of
foul play when owners of Nautic,s set there boats up within the
Rules.From one side of the Tasman has come talk of cutting holes in
the deck,making the lead ballast removable so who has read the
Rules ? As far as i know my boat that i own now,looks and sails like
hull No 1 quite often sails better.
Rob tries every trick in the book to get a good performance from
himself and his boat,the rest of the Nautic skips watch each other
like Hawks any advantage is readily shared,in fact if a boat performs
below par we all try to find out why,(no secret society)But as was
stated early on :All grist to the Mill:Would hate for the Mill to
close for lack of grist.

[starboard]

Well done that young man

On May 15, 8:04 am, macca <rob.mcpher...@0800labour.co.nz> wrote:

[Jim Brown]

Settle down fellas, this is not helping to promote the nautic 12.

[macca]

It never ceases to amaze me That people can be in the middle of a
discussion and when they think that they may have been proven wrong or
when they have run out of a response they dissappear.Are you there
fun !!!!!!!!!

On May 15, 4:48 pm, "Jim Brown" <yach...@gmail.com> wrote:
> Settle down fellas, this is not helping to promote the nautic 12.
>

> On Thu, May 15, 2008 at 10:18 AM, macca <rob.mcpher...@0800labour.co.nz>

[macca]

I hope that all the arguments over the legality of the nz nautic 12s
vector style rig are now at an end as i believe it has been shown in
this discussion the vector rig falls within the rules as written and
published.Allso i would like to commend nevile for his post reguarding
the new type rudder that he was tryling in response to requests from
nautic 12 owners.It is a shame that 1 or 2 indivudles saw fit to force
the trials to be discontinued for there own reasons.After all the
skippers who regulary race against nevill had no problems with him
tryling this rudder as it was seen as a positive step forward in
response to owners demands/requests rob mcpherson nz nautic 12
publicity officer

[starboard]

I fully agree with Robs comments and fully back the Trial of a rudder
Neville was quite open about this to all skips at our lake no advese
comments from any one.
There is a saying about people living in green house shoulds not throw
stones !
Well done Nev