Site structure and keeping decorum
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MisterQED
Jun 4, 2009, 12:08:26 AM6/4/09
to N-Prize
This new thread is in response to Paul’s from “Google Tech Talk, at
last”, so let me first include his post:
I was thinking these threads would cover most things
technical:
Solid rockets
Liquid rockets
Rocket guidance and telemetry
Satellite design
Balloon systems
Cannons and guns
Recovery systems
Compliance and permissions
Machining, materials
Technical help wanted and offered
Any other obvious omissions? I think there should be an option
for
me to create these threads as "stickies" that stay close to the top
of the list - any ideas? In the meantime, hold off creating your
liquid biprop thread...
P.
This was in response to several from Sage which you can look up on
your own.
Part of thread discussed keeping decorum and part to managing side
conversations to keep discussions on topic. In that spirit, I created
a new thread to cover the discussion.
First I’ll say I support the topic creations and would add four more:
Hybrid Rockets, material sourcing, simulations, and recruitment.
Recruitment may overlap with Paul’s Tech help wanted, I’m not sure.
MisterQED
Team Daedalus
last”, so let me first include his post:
I was thinking these threads would cover most things
technical:
Solid rockets
Liquid rockets
Rocket guidance and telemetry
Satellite design
Balloon systems
Cannons and guns
Recovery systems
Compliance and permissions
Machining, materials
Technical help wanted and offered
Any other obvious omissions? I think there should be an option
for
me to create these threads as "stickies" that stay close to the top
of the list - any ideas? In the meantime, hold off creating your
liquid biprop thread...
P.
This was in response to several from Sage which you can look up on
your own.
Part of thread discussed keeping decorum and part to managing side
conversations to keep discussions on topic. In that spirit, I created
a new thread to cover the discussion.
First I’ll say I support the topic creations and would add four more:
Hybrid Rockets, material sourcing, simulations, and recruitment.
Recruitment may overlap with Paul’s Tech help wanted, I’m not sure.
MisterQED
Team Daedalus
MisterQED
Jun 4, 2009, 12:53:42 AM6/4/09
to N-Prize
Keeping decorum and staying on topic:
As this started in the HalfBakery, we could take a page from Jutta’s
book and institute similar mechanisms.
The common answer and one used at the HB for keeping decorum is to
create moderators to monitor threads to see that order is upheld.
Paul seems to be volunteering for this position which is admirable,
but probably challenging and as Paul will attest at the HB, people get
touchy when others delete their posts. Sadly at some point, these
steps need to be taken, but let’s try to keep it to a minimum. I
don’t think it is a task that Paul relishes.
The second strategy used in the HB could be called peer review. In
the case of the HB, ideas can be (marked-for-deletion), for several
reasons. The MFD is a key phase that moderators can search on to
alert them that the idea should be reviewed for possible deletion. On
this site this could be if two similar threads are created or for some
other reason where a new topic diverts from site layout or policies.
Similar key phrases could be used to flag off-topic discussions,
characters attacks or any other feature that calls for author
rewrite. These phrases found in response to posts should be
considered by the author of the original post, to signal deletion and
re-write or just deletion. After rewrite the response flags should
also be re-reviewed by their authors and if changes were incomplete,
moved to flag the new post so author knows they didn’t go far enough.
If authors do not respond to negative peer reviews and Paul needs to
act, at least he has some support for his decisions.
MisterQED
Team Daedalus
As this started in the HalfBakery, we could take a page from Jutta’s
book and institute similar mechanisms.
The common answer and one used at the HB for keeping decorum is to
create moderators to monitor threads to see that order is upheld.
Paul seems to be volunteering for this position which is admirable,
but probably challenging and as Paul will attest at the HB, people get
touchy when others delete their posts. Sadly at some point, these
steps need to be taken, but let’s try to keep it to a minimum. I
don’t think it is a task that Paul relishes.
The second strategy used in the HB could be called peer review. In
the case of the HB, ideas can be (marked-for-deletion), for several
reasons. The MFD is a key phase that moderators can search on to
alert them that the idea should be reviewed for possible deletion. On
this site this could be if two similar threads are created or for some
other reason where a new topic diverts from site layout or policies.
Similar key phrases could be used to flag off-topic discussions,
characters attacks or any other feature that calls for author
rewrite. These phrases found in response to posts should be
considered by the author of the original post, to signal deletion and
re-write or just deletion. After rewrite the response flags should
also be re-reviewed by their authors and if changes were incomplete,
moved to flag the new post so author knows they didn’t go far enough.
If authors do not respond to negative peer reviews and Paul needs to
act, at least he has some support for his decisions.
MisterQED
Team Daedalus
Message has been deleted
Charles
Jun 4, 2009, 4:26:35 AM6/4/09
to N-Prize
I'm not sure how necessary removal of past posts is needed, but just
more effort at keeping on topic and more civil.
In the "old" newsgroup days (of yesteryear...) some groups were
moderated by someone who could filter, and maybe delete inappropriate
posts and those too far off topic. It was a sort of peer review.
This forum is what's left of the NG (they still exist, but at lower
activity)--such capabilities may have become obsolete.
I'm for all of us trying the discipline of starting a new topic for a
new idea instead of "bending" an existing one (to which I am guilty
also), and see how it goes. In a whil;e, I'll try by starting one on
liquid propulsion and why it is my preference, on technical grounds,
unless someone else does first. I can also talk about my guidance,
satellite design ideas, as I see them (some of that in my N Prize
presentation at SAS April 2).
Charles
On Jun 3, 10:30 pm, MisterQED <mister...@yahoo.com> wrote:
> Paul, here is a flag that you will recognize: (marked-for-expiry)
>
> Once Sage has read this Post and made any response, please delete this
> post.
>
> Because I am logged in with a Yahoo account I cannot delete my own
> posts, so I have made a list of my posts to delete.
> QED 6/1 10:34am
> QED 6/2 2:11pm
>
> Paul, please delete them at your earliest convenience.
> I will email Charles and will leave it to him to decide the fate of my
> earliest posts.
> Charles, if you get this, tell Paul any and all of my posts you want
> deleted from the "Tech Talk" thread.
>
> Sage, I ask you to delete the following posts from “Google Tech Talk,
> at last”:
> Sage 6/1 6:28pm
> Sage 6/1 8:43pm
> Sage 6/2 1:44pm
>
> I would include Sage 5/31 12:09am Point A, but the majority of the
> post is substantive. (I wish it could be edited.)
>
> This is simply a request, to put this behind us.
>
> Monroe, if deletions are made would you delete your responses to said
> posts?
> Again, I simply ask this to put this behind us and because a potential
> sponsor of yours may read this some day.
>
> MisterQED
> Team Daedalus
more effort at keeping on topic and more civil.
In the "old" newsgroup days (of yesteryear...) some groups were
moderated by someone who could filter, and maybe delete inappropriate
posts and those too far off topic. It was a sort of peer review.
This forum is what's left of the NG (they still exist, but at lower
activity)--such capabilities may have become obsolete.
I'm for all of us trying the discipline of starting a new topic for a
new idea instead of "bending" an existing one (to which I am guilty
also), and see how it goes. In a whil;e, I'll try by starting one on
liquid propulsion and why it is my preference, on technical grounds,
unless someone else does first. I can also talk about my guidance,
satellite design ideas, as I see them (some of that in my N Prize
presentation at SAS April 2).
Charles
On Jun 3, 10:30 pm, MisterQED <mister...@yahoo.com> wrote:
> Paul, here is a flag that you will recognize: (marked-for-expiry)
>
> Once Sage has read this Post and made any response, please delete this
> post.
>
> Because I am logged in with a Yahoo account I cannot delete my own
> posts, so I have made a list of my posts to delete.
>
> “Google Tech Talk, at last”
> QED 6/1 2:29am
> “Google Tech Talk, at last”
> QED 6/1 10:34am
> QED 6/2 2:11pm
>
> Paul, please delete them at your earliest convenience.
> I will email Charles and will leave it to him to decide the fate of my
> earliest posts.
> Charles, if you get this, tell Paul any and all of my posts you want
> deleted from the "Tech Talk" thread.
>
> Sage, I ask you to delete the following posts from “Google Tech Talk,
> at last”:
> Sage 6/1 6:28pm
> Sage 6/1 8:43pm
> Sage 6/2 1:44pm
>
> I would include Sage 5/31 12:09am Point A, but the majority of the
> post is substantive. (I wish it could be edited.)
>
> This is simply a request, to put this behind us.
>
> Monroe, if deletions are made would you delete your responses to said
> posts?
> Again, I simply ask this to put this behind us and because a potential
> sponsor of yours may read this some day.
>
> MisterQED
> Team Daedalus
N-prize
Jun 4, 2009, 4:50:33 AM6/4/09
to n-p...@googlegroups.com
Hi all,
Many thanks for all the suggestions. I'm just on my way out the door and will be short of time until Friday evening, but will catch up. I'm looking into alternative fora formats (fora formata?) that might give more flexibility, as well as into options for moderating and sub-fora. I want to keep a friendly (well, OK, shall we say 'informal'?) feel, but at the same time structure the topics a bit more and, indeed, moderate or at least cloister away the ranty exchanges which, inevitably, happen in all groups where people feel strongly. Also, happy to delete any posts as per the requests.
Got to run, more soon,
Paul
=======================
Paul H. Dear,
Chief Optimist.
The N-Prize,
PO Box 1133,
Sawston,
Cambridge CB22 3WB
England.
=======================
Monroe
Jun 4, 2009, 10:25:04 AM6/4/09
to N-Prize
Paul and gang
I will never complain about a deleted post. Feel free to delete any
post I may write or have written that may be inappropriate or
incorrect. I make mistakes regularly I do get tired as I have said
about taking my humble opinions personally as I have said many times
before I am no expert on any particular subject and there for I
sometimes see things incorrectly or skewed. I do talk more than most
but I learn a lot that way and I have a lot to learn and it pains me
to lose friends I can learn from. Because I talk a lot people
sometimes seem to think I think I know something the truth is if I
don't say anything I will learn nothing. However I am not ignorant and
have not found a subject I cannot grasp without some help as I believe
most people are capable of. I believe intelligents is just a measure
of time required to grasp a subject because I can teach almost anyone
interested what I have learned in time regardless of their
intelligents. I am very patient with those less knowledgeable in any
particular subject because I need patients from people more
knowledgeable than I. I don't get a kick out of watching people
proclaim to be experts in any particular field because there is no
perspective in that because we all have a lot to learn. Anyone that
doesn’t know this has lost a proper prospective of the truth about the
human condition and has lost a great deal more than that.
At the same time I am not a door mat you can wipe your feet on.
In my experience every man has equal worth unless THEY decide
differently and that’s a loss either way. I have learned I can do
little about that it's a personal battle for each individual. Still it
is hard to watch at times and until I pass from this earth I will
grapple with it, it's the only fight worth fighting and I will
eventually loose the battle but I will go down swinging with my last
breath at the unknown that’s why I'm here. I may not make much
difference but that doesn’t stop me from trying to and that's the best
I can do and I'm ok with that. So judge as you will.
I really think the N-Prize deserves a proper forum with regular even
handed moderation because of the fact it is a competition.
Unless this is intended to be a debate or intellectual exercise the
goals here are hardware oriented or legal issues.
We all have our strengths and weaknesses I suggest that this is a
extremely difficult task for anyone of us to accomplish because of
logistics if nothing else.
I believe we have enough diversity and talent here that we may succeed
if we co-operate.
I have accessed the entire project and the scope of this project is
enormous if we combined our efforts I believe we have just enough to
really get the job done.
Other than that who knows.
So what I have is available if you can lower your standards to my
level.
That’s all I have to say.
Godspeed to all.
MisterQED
Jun 4, 2009, 10:44:24 AM6/4/09
to N-Prize
I agree and hope in the future that deletion isn't necessary, but Sage
seems to be making the claim that my early posts commenting on your
Tech Talk were in some way disruptive or distracting. You are the
best judge in this matter, so in the interest of decorum I leave it to
you to decide their fate, thumbs up or thumbs down.
MisterQED
Team Daedalus
seems to be making the claim that my early posts commenting on your
Tech Talk were in some way disruptive or distracting. You are the
best judge in this matter, so in the interest of decorum I leave it to
you to decide their fate, thumbs up or thumbs down.
MisterQED
Team Daedalus
Monroe
Jun 4, 2009, 10:59:24 AM6/4/09
to N-Prize
Paul
I believe the Space Fellowship may welcome us there and you already
have what you need. Feel free to delete any post I have made there as
well and lay out your sticky's and anouncements. There is moderation
in place there as well.
Monroe
I believe the Space Fellowship may welcome us there and you already
have what you need. Feel free to delete any post I have made there as
well and lay out your sticky's and anouncements. There is moderation
in place there as well.
Monroe
Message has been deleted
Sage (LMR)
Jun 4, 2009, 12:45:51 PM6/4/09
to N-Prize
QED,
I will respond to all comments above as soon as I get a little more
bandwidth (probably later today)... Quickly though...
1)
I'm very strongly against moderator(s)...
2)
I'm not sure why you think I felt your first posts (the ones to
Charles) were disruptive; a little supposing perhaps, but not really
over the line (Charles can be the best judge of that, however). At
the same time, I did have some comments to make on the prevailing
attitude regarding development approaches and wanted to express the
power of the individual, small teams, and the benefits of prior
societal contributions which empower many to make great
accomplishments "by themselves" - views which others agreed with,
and
in my opinion, embodies a very important concept for the betterment
of
society (the scarcity of which (in part) has led to licensing and
regulations). Of course, the responses didn't need to be hostile or
insulting; if someone disagreed with me, it would have been just as
easy to tell me why, and we could have easily continued the
discussion
(either on or off-line). Debate is often required for people come to
a higher level of understanding. But, when it becomes a personal
attack or overly hostile tone, the nature of the debate often ceases
to be about it's content, and important points are lost.
3)
As mentioned, I'll have to address all this sometime later today.
But, I don't support comment moderation (and am actually quite
strongly opposed to it). The forum members should treat each other
with respect, and if they disagree with viewpoints, explain why in
reasoned terms. However (if they don't), I would rather deal with
the
occasional disrespect and personal attack than I would the moderation
(and often, such hostile behavior can be illuminating).
At the same time, it does needs to be up to the individual forum
members to condemn such behavior as they see fit, and make sure it's
known. So far, most people have simply withheld comment out of
respect for the N-Prize, but I actually think this does more harm
than
good because it: a) indirectly excuses the behavior and b) does not
give the perpetrating member a chance to evolve with input from
others.
Anyway, I do have to go right now, but will respond to all your above
comments as soon as possible. In the meantime, what's important is
that we're bringing this conversation to a better level, and this
action (not moderation) is the key.
~Sage
www.littlemonsterrocket.com
> > > > > Team Daedalus- Hide quoted text -
>
> - Show quoted text -
I will respond to all comments above as soon as I get a little more
bandwidth (probably later today)... Quickly though...
1)
I'm very strongly against moderator(s)...
2)
I'm not sure why you think I felt your first posts (the ones to
Charles) were disruptive; a little supposing perhaps, but not really
over the line (Charles can be the best judge of that, however). At
the same time, I did have some comments to make on the prevailing
attitude regarding development approaches and wanted to express the
power of the individual, small teams, and the benefits of prior
societal contributions which empower many to make great
accomplishments "by themselves" - views which others agreed with,
and
in my opinion, embodies a very important concept for the betterment
of
society (the scarcity of which (in part) has led to licensing and
regulations). Of course, the responses didn't need to be hostile or
insulting; if someone disagreed with me, it would have been just as
easy to tell me why, and we could have easily continued the
discussion
(either on or off-line). Debate is often required for people come to
a higher level of understanding. But, when it becomes a personal
attack or overly hostile tone, the nature of the debate often ceases
to be about it's content, and important points are lost.
3)
As mentioned, I'll have to address all this sometime later today.
But, I don't support comment moderation (and am actually quite
strongly opposed to it). The forum members should treat each other
with respect, and if they disagree with viewpoints, explain why in
reasoned terms. However (if they don't), I would rather deal with
the
occasional disrespect and personal attack than I would the moderation
(and often, such hostile behavior can be illuminating).
At the same time, it does needs to be up to the individual forum
members to condemn such behavior as they see fit, and make sure it's
known. So far, most people have simply withheld comment out of
respect for the N-Prize, but I actually think this does more harm
than
good because it: a) indirectly excuses the behavior and b) does not
give the perpetrating member a chance to evolve with input from
others.
Anyway, I do have to go right now, but will respond to all your above
comments as soon as possible. In the meantime, what's important is
that we're bringing this conversation to a better level, and this
action (not moderation) is the key.
~Sage
www.littlemonsterrocket.com
>
> - Show quoted text -
MisterQED
Jun 4, 2009, 1:44:41 PM6/4/09
to N-Prize
I agree, the best approach is self monitoring, next peer review and
worst is moderators.
The last is like many severe measures, distasteful but sometimes
necessary.
MisterQED
Team Daedalus
worst is moderators.
The last is like many severe measures, distasteful but sometimes
necessary.
MisterQED
Team Daedalus
N-prize
Jun 4, 2009, 4:58:04 PM6/4/09
to n-p...@googlegroups.com
Hi all,
I'm running around today and tomorrow, but am checking email when possible - I've not gone into hiding. Hope to catch up properly at the weekend.
Just a brief note: I am looking into a new forum format; not sure about the Space Fellowship - I love the site, but also have some anxieties and will have to look into it. But whatever we come up with will be at least more organised than the present site.
On the subject of moderating, it's a balance (as I think several of you have pointed out). My ideal is not to need to moderate, but to have the option to do so (or to move posts to a "mudpit" topic) if things get out of hand.
More soon, and best wishes to all.
Paul
Sage (LMR)
Jun 4, 2009, 7:12:01 PM6/4/09
to N-Prize
QED,
Thanks, I do appreciate your attention to this.
I've re-read through all my posts again, but did not find anything
inappropriate in the first two you've asked me to delete. However, I
do want to understand what it is you find inappropriate about them so
that we can avoid this in the future. With that, please read through
them again and if you still feel there is something inappropriate
simply send me a private e-mail and we can discuss it there.
Regarding the last post you've asked me to delete... As you know, it
was in direct response to a string of inappropriate comments, but I
will certainly consider deleting it after the instigating comments are
removed (whether by Paul or otherwise).
~Sage
www.littlemonsterrocket.com
On Jun 3, 10:30 pm, MisterQED <mister...@yahoo.com> wrote:
> Paul, here is a flag that you will recognize: (marked-for-expiry)
>
> Once Sage has read this Post and made any response, please delete this
> post.
>
> Because I am logged in with a Yahoo account I cannot delete my own
> posts, so I have made a list of my posts to delete.
>
> at last”:
> Team Daedalus
>
Thanks, I do appreciate your attention to this.
I've re-read through all my posts again, but did not find anything
inappropriate in the first two you've asked me to delete. However, I
do want to understand what it is you find inappropriate about them so
that we can avoid this in the future. With that, please read through
them again and if you still feel there is something inappropriate
simply send me a private e-mail and we can discuss it there.
Regarding the last post you've asked me to delete... As you know, it
was in direct response to a string of inappropriate comments, but I
will certainly consider deleting it after the instigating comments are
removed (whether by Paul or otherwise).
~Sage
www.littlemonsterrocket.com
On Jun 3, 10:30 pm, MisterQED <mister...@yahoo.com> wrote:
> Paul, here is a flag that you will recognize: (marked-for-expiry)
>
> Once Sage has read this Post and made any response, please delete this
> post.
>
> Because I am logged in with a Yahoo account I cannot delete my own
> posts, so I have made a list of my posts to delete.
>
> “Google Tech Talk, at last”
> QED 6/1 2:29am
> QED 6/1 10:34am
> QED 6/2 2:11pm
>
> Paul, please delete them at your earliest convenience.
> I will email Charles and will leave it to him to decide the fate of my
> earliest posts.
> Charles, if you get this, tell Paul any and all of my posts you want
> deleted from the "Tech Talk" thread.
>
> Sage, I ask you to delete the following posts from “Google Tech Talk,
> QED 6/1 10:34am
> QED 6/2 2:11pm
>
> Paul, please delete them at your earliest convenience.
> I will email Charles and will leave it to him to decide the fate of my
> earliest posts.
> Charles, if you get this, tell Paul any and all of my posts you want
> deleted from the "Tech Talk" thread.
>
> at last”:
> Sage 6/1 6:28pm
> Sage 6/1 8:43pm
> Sage 6/2 1:44pm
>
> I would include Sage 5/31 12:09am Point A, but the majority of the
> post is substantive. (I wish it could be edited.)
>
> This is simply a request, to put this behind us.
>
> Monroe, if deletions are made would you delete your responses to said
> posts?
> Again, I simply ask this to put this behind us and because a potential
> sponsor of yours may read this some day.
>
> MisterQED
> Sage 6/1 8:43pm
> Sage 6/2 1:44pm
>
> I would include Sage 5/31 12:09am Point A, but the majority of the
> post is substantive. (I wish it could be edited.)
>
> This is simply a request, to put this behind us.
>
> Monroe, if deletions are made would you delete your responses to said
> posts?
> Again, I simply ask this to put this behind us and because a potential
> sponsor of yours may read this some day.
>
> Team Daedalus
>
Message has been deleted
Sage (LMR)
Jun 4, 2009, 7:24:20 PM6/4/09
to N-Prize
QED,
I'm glad we're in agreement on this. We should avoid (and at quite
nearly any cost within the context of this forum) the use of
moderators. It's simply the wrong approach and for so many reasons
(some of which have been noted).
We (that is, all forum members) simply need to be vigilant about
sticking to topic threads and using logical reasoning during
conversations and debates – and that pretty much takes care of it.
If something errant does occur, it should be the responsibility of
other forum members to point out that which is inappropriate in the
discussion (either privately or publicly). I think this
responsibility is something forum members should not shunt; it
provides important insight and feedback as to how the messages are
coming across.
~Sage
www.littlemonsterrocket.com
> > > - Show quoted text -- Hide quoted text -
I'm glad we're in agreement on this. We should avoid (and at quite
nearly any cost within the context of this forum) the use of
moderators. It's simply the wrong approach and for so many reasons
(some of which have been noted).
We (that is, all forum members) simply need to be vigilant about
sticking to topic threads and using logical reasoning during
conversations and debates – and that pretty much takes care of it.
If something errant does occur, it should be the responsibility of
other forum members to point out that which is inappropriate in the
discussion (either privately or publicly). I think this
responsibility is something forum members should not shunt; it
provides important insight and feedback as to how the messages are
coming across.
~Sage
www.littlemonsterrocket.com
N-prize
Jun 5, 2009, 2:07:25 PM6/5/09
to n-p...@googlegroups.com
Hi all,
I'm still looking into a new site forum, and hope to have some news over the weekend, though it'll probably be a week or two before it's up and running. When it gets closer, I'll apprecate some advice on the structure (sub-forums etc).
I'm not going to moderate heavily - hopefully not at all. Basic guidelines are just stick to the topic (or start a new one), and keep it friendly. As long as people stick to that, that's fine. I'll even have a mudpit where people can take discussions that wander wildly off-course or look set to autodestruct.
The whole phenomenon of web-group behaviour is interesting (see - here I am, drifting radically off course already) - flare-ups happen in all groups, and to almost all users at some point or another. So, it's not a huge deal but the new format will, with luck, help discussions and make it easier for newcomers to see what we're about. (Incidentally, let me be clear that the purpose of this group is to serve the teams. Whilst I would like it to be a good flagship to the rest of the world, that's not my top priority.)
Monroe and Prometheans - just watching the video at the moment (had connection problems at work today). Looking good so far, and it really is brilliant to have video.
Best,
P
Maxwell
Jun 11, 2009, 5:27:54 PM6/11/09
to N-Prize
Hey all,
Just to say that plans are underway to establish a new and shiny
forum with a better and more manageable structure. There'll be a bit
of a lull from me for the next week or so, as I have an alarming grant-
deadline coming up which I can't afford to miss, but progress will
then hopefully be swift. (I don't suppose there's a clinical
geneticist here.....? Ah well).
Best,
Paul
> ...
>
> read more »
Just to say that plans are underway to establish a new and shiny
forum with a better and more manageable structure. There'll be a bit
of a lull from me for the next week or so, as I have an alarming grant-
deadline coming up which I can't afford to miss, but progress will
then hopefully be swift. (I don't suppose there's a clinical
geneticist here.....? Ah well).
Best,
Paul
>
> read more »
Monroe
Jun 11, 2009, 6:14:13 PM6/11/09
to N-Prize
Paul
Cheers! hip hip huray! And good luck with the grant deadline.
Monroe
Cheers! hip hip huray! And good luck with the grant deadline.
Monroe
N-prize
Jun 11, 2009, 6:21:13 PM6/11/09
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Thanks Monroe :-)
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