Level conversions and sundry

[Lee]

OK I have a couple Ideas/Questions. I suspect these have been
mentioned as possibilities before but I don't know.

If we ignore the Epic Level Handbook, couldn't we simply extrapolate
the current classes to level 36? I dont believe it is SRD compliant to
print experience point tables even past level 20, but we could
certainly fill out the Level bonuses. The hardest part would be
Spells Allowed for the classes.

Has any thought been given to simply add classes to the game? what I
mean is have a class with a better name than 0E elf that gets fighting
ability and spellcasting ability at a rate somewhat comparable to its
0E equivalent.

I have created an .xls spreadsheet of exp needed for levels 1-36 along
with basic level info such as BAB and Saves, but I don't know if it is
allowable to post it on the Group. Though it is easy to recreate and I
can post it without experience points.

In the interests of full disclosure, I should point out that, while I
am very interested in Converting 0E to 3E, I am more interested in
Mystara 3E. I would like to see, probably in .pdf, an actual Mystara
3E PHB, DMG, and MM. I do, however, bow to reality and understand it
is not very likely.

Lee
Apologies for any incoherence.
Simply request clarification and I will cheerfully do my best.

[David Mansfield]

And it begins!

Hi again everyone! I am excited to see this project starting up again since
Mystara is my favourite campaign world by quite a margin.

We definitely discussed the 36 vs 20 rule at some length while serving with
the Benevolent Dictator and I seem to remember we ended up with something
that came out around level 25? Actually, I'll stop being lazy... one
second...

Ok here is the link to the character conversion page:
http://www.mystara.jamm.com/pages/conversions.htm#ConversionGuidelines

A lot of people were involved in that discussions and decision-making on
this topic as well as at least one survey. I think it is one of the key
character conversion decisions we arrived at and one that we should keep.

I don't think we intended to ignore the Epic Level Spellbook and I would
expect to use the Epic Level Rules for very high level characters.

We did not create and "Races of ..." styles classes such as 0E Elf. We stuck
to the standard classes as much as possible. Elves for example were
suggested as a multi-class of Fighter and Wizard.

So I guess the first point of discussion is: Do we keep this part of the
work we completed previously?

The second item I would put forward is a suggestion that recommended feats
for elves should feature the armored caster feat.

http://www.dandwiki.com/wiki/Armored_Caster_(DnD_Magical_Feat)

I would like to see it implemented to the point where elves may choose
between Armored Caster or Still Spell as their first feat.

Thoughts?

Regards,
David.

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[Jenni Merrifield]

Thanks for starting things off Lee, and your message brings me to an
important point. I HIGHLY recommend anyone who was not intimately
involved with the original project to look through the existing M3E site
so that you are familiar with what we originally discussed extensively
and approved. Not all of what's there is necessarily set in hard stone,
but a good majority was hashed and rehashed and argued and reargued
extensively before it was approved for posting, so there needs to be a
very good reason before we start making changes. I'd rather we start
poking at things that have not yet been covered in any depth.

Now, if you have a desperate desire to see something different from
what's already presented online, please don't hesitate to suggest it (I
certainly intend to), but if you do, describe HOW you would change
things and provide a detailed explanation behind WHY you believe this
change is PREFERABLE to the existing change.

Note that I said "PREFERABLE" not "BETTER" - "BETTER" vs. "WORSE" is a
judgment call we should avoid. Many ideas can be equally "good" - what
we are looking for is what seems to hit the mark the closest in
maintaining the atmosphere and style of Mystara.

That said, I believe someone else has already pointed out that there is
a detailed character level conversion already in place. This was one of
the most complex and deeply discussed issues and even though I may not
entirely agree with all the decisions made, I believe we should leave
that one as it stands (if for no other reason than maintaining the long
term sanity of this group!).

Toodles,
Jenni
OGL, Mystara d20

--
Jenni A.M. Merrifield
| walking on water and
| designing to requirements are easy
| so long as both are frozen

design - development - usability
human factors engineer
user experience specialist
--

> -----Original Message-----
> From: mysta...@googlegroups.com
[mailto:mysta...@googlegroups.com] On
> Behalf Of Lee
> Sent: June 11, 2007 11:00 PM
> To: Mystara D20
> Subject: [Mystara D20] #4 - Level conversions and sundry
>
>

[Thrombin007]

I'm baaaack :-D

As someone who was very much involved in the original level
discussions I would definitely fear for my sanity if we ended up re-
visting that issue again!

I think what we came up with works pretty well...

Regards

Julian

[Lee]

> That said, I believe someone else has already pointed out that there is
> a detailed character level conversion already in place. This was one of
> the most complex and deeply discussed issues and even though I may not
> entirely agree with all the decisions made, I believe we should leave
> that one as it stands (if for no other reason than maintaining the long
> term sanity of this group!).

Done and done. I will be working my way through the website and
hopefully attempting a few conversion with what is there. Part of my
confusion I think was that I was never certain what was approved and
done and what was still in progress on the Yahoo group. It'll be a
bit before I am willing to put my name on the to do list, but with any
luck I'll get on there before this project is done :)

Lee

[Boondale]

Not sure if this is the place to post this, but about 2 years ago I
used the 3.0 Epic Level handbook to expand the exp charts (and the
charts for each class in the PH) to level 123. Im more then willing to
post the file(s) for the group to use but atm im out of town and dont
have access to my computer till sunday.

[darth_borehd]

I don't see why we can't just use the 1-20 and 21+ epic levels that
are already found in the SRD for going to level 36. Why make extra
work when there is no need?

You can keep the simplistic race/class fusion and use the SRD at the
same time. Just make "elf" a fighter/wizard combination with a set
level progression.

Mystara was more than just 0e. The Redsteel/Savage Coast campaigns in
2e worked just fine with giving players a variety of race and class
choices

[Rodger Burns]

On 6/30/07, darth_borehd <darth....@gmail.com> wrote:

I don't see why we can't just use the 1-20 and 21+ epic levels that
are already found in the SRD for going to level 36.  Why make extra
work when there is no need?

My opinion: Epic levels, as written, are a pain in the butt to begin with.  (Go ahead, balance Epic Spellcasting.)  Bringing them in for characters in the middle of Companion level is an ugly, ugly piece of work.  The established conversion does at least postpone Epic until early Masters levels, so I'm inclined to go with that.

Note also, BTW, that the level conversion as written makes a standard 'max-level' human about level 25, while max-level demihumans are level 22-23.  In other words, there's no longer a power imbalance at high levels, which given that first-level humans actually get cool racial bonuses in 3e makes perfect sense.  Decide that Thincol and Eriadna both translate as level 36 Epic PCs in a 3.x setup, and either demihuman notables get it stuck in or there's a new and pressing need to make high-end demihuman attack ranks count for multiple 3.x levels.

Lee wrote:
> OK I have a couple Ideas/Questions. I suspect these have been
> mentioned as possibilities before but I don't know.
>
> If we ignore the Epic Level Handbook, couldn't we simply extrapolate
> the current classes to level 36? I dont believe it is SRD compliant to
> print experience point tables even past level 20, but we could
> certainly fill out the Level bonuses.  The hardest part would be
> Spells Allowed for the classes.

Well, the other tricky part with extrapolating classes to level 36 are the BAB and saves progressions.  A level 36 Cleric, extrapolated, has a base Will save of +20 and loads of Wisdom on top of that; his buddy the level 36 Rogue has Will +12.  Any Will-based effect able to threaten the cleric is pretty much guaranteed to fry the rogue's brain.

Meanwhile, the level 36 Fighter has a BAB of +36, while the level 36 Wizard has a BAB of +18.  Not only is the Fighter hitting stuff on 2s that the wizard needs a 20 to hit, but either we cap iterative attacks at four and give the Wizard as many attack rolls as the Fighter (worse to-hit chances, mind you, with +18/+13/+8/+3 for the wizard versus +36/+31/+26/+21 for the fighter, but just as many swings) or we take the iterative attacks cap off and the fighter gets a mind-boggling seven attacks per round.

I dislike a lot of the Epic setup, but unlimited extrapolation is equally nasty.  It can stay under control if you go to Level 25 or so, but no further. =(

[David Mansfield]

Rodger is pretty much on the money with the points he makes as to why we
made the decisions we did.

The key areas we focused on were:
- Balancing off attack ranks vs levels
- Ensuring that spell levels were being accessed at the right pace for
wizards
- Getting Masters levels rules to start around level 20 (and prospects of
immortality)

Regards,
David.

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[darth_borehd]

I don't see any need to balance it. My viewpoint is that characters
who reach that level should be over-the-top and near-mythical so it
fits.

I see from some of the other comments that a conversion has already
been decided on so it looks like the question is moot at this point.
Since I prefer to lean more on the side of SRD compatibility, I would
like to go on record that I am opposed to making a special level scale
rather than sticking with the standard one. I would have to verify
this, but I think that making a custom level progression makes the
game OGL but not no longer d20.

On Jun 30, 7:19 pm, "Rodger Burns" <eldersph...@gmail.com> wrote:

[darth_borehd]

I don't see any need to balance it. My viewpoint is that characters
who reach that level should be over-the-top and near-mythical so it
fits.

I see from some of the other comments that a conversion has already
been decided on so it looks like the question is moot at this point.
Since I prefer to lean more on the side of SRD compatibility, I would
like to go on record that I am opposed to making a special level scale
rather than sticking with the standard one. I would have to verify
this, but I think that making a custom level progression makes the
game OGL but not no longer d20.

On Jun 30, 7:19 pm, "Rodger Burns" <eldersph...@gmail.com> wrote:

[Rodger Burns]

On 7/1/07, darth_borehd <darth....@gmail.com> wrote:

I don't see any need  to balance it.  My viewpoint is that characters
who reach that level should be over-the-top and near-mythical so it
fits.

I see from some of the other comments that a conversion has already
been decided on so it looks like the question is moot at this point.
Since I prefer to lean more on the side of SRD compatibility, I would
like to go on record that I am opposed to making a special level scale
rather than sticking with the standard one.  I would have to verify
this, but I think that making a custom level progression makes the
game OGL but not no longer d20.

... wait, WHAT 'custom level progression'?  Everyone still goes up in levels, from 1 to 20-something, straight 3.5e rules.  All the conversion does is decide what level an NPC originally statted under RC rules ends up as now.

Level conversion is "How do we make stuff from this other game transfer over to d20".  No more, no less.

As for why to balance high-Epic play... Thyatis becomes a heck of a lot less intimidating if Eriadna is able to smoke Thincol in two combat rounds should the two ever meet, without ever breaking a sweat.  And given sixteen Epic levels plus some side helping of Epic Spellcasting, she'd surely be able to manage that.
 

[Jenni Merrifield]

Rodger has it right.  Here’s a direct link to the current conversion rules (I intend to simplify the explanation part of this page, but the correct details are all there): http://www.mystara.jamm.com/pages/conversions.htm#ConversionGuidelines

 

:-j(enni)

OGL, Mystara d20

 

--
Jenni A.M. Merrifield
| walking on water and
| designing to requirements are easy
| so long as both are frozen

design - development – usability
user experience specialist
software engineer
--

From: mysta...@googlegroups.com [mailto:mysta...@googlegroups.com] On Behalf Of Rodger Burns

Sent: July 1, 2007 3:09 AM
To: mysta...@googlegroups.com

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