Is it possible to have a folder marked as ´completed´

[Grant]

The reason I ask is because I have a folder with 3 tasks,  and once those three tasks are marked as completed I also do not want to see the folder in the outline view.  I could change the folder back to a task and mark it complete, but that is not really very elegant, and it removes the benefit of having folders if and when I want to go back and review these weekly lists.

Thanks,

Grant

[Dwight]

Hi, Grant.  No, a folder cannot be either complete or incomplete. That's one of the attractions of using folders.

Could you please explain a bit about what you mean when you mention the outline view? For me, "outline view" usually means "all tasks" but that can't be it because completed rasks are not hidden in this view.

I'm pretty sure that we could create a custom view that would hide every folder except for folders wirh uncompleted subtasks. But first we would need to establish which view to use as a starting point.
-Dwight
Mlo betazoid on Android sgn2

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-Dwight
Mlo betazoid on Android sgn2
-Dwight
Mlo betazoid on Android sgn2

[Grant]

Hi Dewight,

I am curious: why is it good to not be able to mark a folder complete?  At least for my needs its not ;-)

By Outline View I meant the Task view under Outline in the Windows version.  In this (or any view that I know of, in the Windows version) you can choose to have tasks visible or not at the top of the ´filter´ box on the left.

If I was to have this capability I would want to be able to apply per folder. Some folders can remain visible, event if they have no tasks or all tasks are completed.  Its only a folder I use to list my Outcomes  for the day and week that I want to not be visible - this is to reduce the visual clutter in this part of my ´day-week-month-year´ desired outcomes section of my planning.  I keep my project tasks in another group, where there will be folders that at times have no tasks or all tasks completed, but are still active.

I suspect I will have to go the the ´new features´ place and enter this idea, among the other 400 where I wonder if it will be seen... ;-)

Cheers,

Grant

[Dwight Arthur]

Hi, Grant. I wonder why you would want your Outcomes to be contained in
a folder, as opposed to having an Outcomes task with subtasks. A task
with subtasks is exactly the same as a folder with tasks, with two
exceptions: (1) A folder is neither completed nor uncompleted. If you
need something that is neither completed nor uncompleted you need a
folder. If you need something that can be completed or uncompleted you
need a task. (2) there are a whole class of advanced filter rules that
specifically address folders, if you switch to a task and you use these
rules you have to switch to rules that address parent tasks or top-level
parent tasks.

If you created a flavor of folder that had a completed/uncompleted
status, in my mind you would just have reinvented tasks. Unless there is
some other advantage that I'm missing for having something that acts
like a task but looks like a folder . . .

You asked why it would be an advantage for folders to have no completion
status. There are a lot of reasons, here is a simple one:

In one particular project I need a reminder not to block the customer's
driveway. I could add a task to the project: "make sure driveway isn't
blocked". But I'm not really looking to add a step where I have to stop,
check the driveway, and check off the task. I just need a reminder. So I
can put a folder in my project with the name "make sure driveway isn't
blocked" - I will see it when I look at the project listing in the
morning and it will remind me, but I don't have to complete it, it never
shows up on my "next actions" view, and it does not prevent the parent
task from becoming active.

Another great reason has to do with setting up two tasks that run in
parallel in the middle of a project with "complete tasks in order" - but
that's a little complex for this thread, if you want to know about that
come back and ask and we can do it in a different thread.

I agree with you that if you request this change it's going to the
bottom of a long queue, so I'm hoping that you just never really
considered using a task instead of a folder and that this will be what
you need.

-Dwight
MLO Betazoid on Windows, Cloud and Android SGN2

[Grant]

Hi Dwight,

You miss my point.  Sorry.

First, I assume folders are to organize content. For MLO that is projects and tasks.  At some point content is no longer needed for an activity, but it has to be accessible for some time.  In these cases I would want the folder to not be visible in my outline of live tasks, projects and folders, but I would want to be able to look at it on demand (weekly and other reviews).  The easy way to do this in MLO would have been if a folder could be marked completed (´hide this branch in ToDo´ does not do this) event though I am not really ´completing´ it in the task or project sense.  If there was another way to do it, I would also be happy.

From your ´dont block driveway example´ you seem to think folder are for tasks that need not be marked as completed, rather than as organizers of content. I think you are misusing the concept of folders, since a reminder is more of a task, even if you never mark it complete its still related to an event in time and not organization of content. So saying that is the logic for not allowing folders to be completed is not really reasonable. I would argue, why not allow folders to be completed - it would not impact there current usefulness, even for your reminder use, and it would add some interesting possiblities for managing task and project stucture and content.

Finaly, yes, I can use a task instead of a folder, and it works, but a) its not a task or project, and b) its visually more intuitively correct to see a folder icon and not a task box when organizing content.

I hope this make it clearer

Lastly, your comment about it being useless to put my request for a new feature in because it would remain low, next to sounding very condescending, ignores the point I was really hinting at that that site is not very well maintained and is loosing its usefulness, what with 400 entries... that results in a lot of ideas never being seen, and/or entered twice or more often and so never getting the recognition they deserve.  Voting is not always the best way to judge value.  Most innovations or breakthroughs would never happen if they where voted on.  Also MLO team shows this themselves, as they have not implemented some of the items with the highest number of votes for some years...

Overall, I wish you where more open to exploring and understanding the potential of new possibles and the ´voice of the customer´  rather than defending the status quo, which, to me, is how your response sounds.

 

[Joel Azaria]

Grant,

I don't want to interject in your commentary with Dwight but maybe I can speak for moment to your original question -

The reason that it makes sense (at least to me) that a folder can be neither complete or incomplete is because MLO uses folders strictly as an organizational instrument.   Also, folders do not show up in task views, only in the outline.  I'm guessing here but you say that folders appear in all views in MLO but that is not the case.  If you are new to mlo (or just haven't explored views thoroughly) you might be missing what is one of the best parts of MLO (at least imo) - that is, that you create views of the outline that match certain criteria but also *flatten* the view to just a list of tasks with checkboxes.  In these flattened views there are no folders showing regardless of if your tasks are in a folder (or even multiple nested folders).  In these "flat" views you can focus on the todos themselves with any distraction of folders or organizing, etc.  Just a list of tasks that need to get done and you can power through them with nothing but checking them off and maybe adding some notes as necessary.

At least that's my workflow (the portion that relates to your question anyway).

For the reasons above, imho, I don't believe that it makes sense to mark a folder complete because a folder is not something you complete, it's something you simply store stuff in and/or file away. Essentially, just as a paper folder works in the real world.

Hopefully that helps you understand the logic of folders as they exist presently and possibly tailor your system now to work the way you want.

J.

[Grant]

Hi Joel,

No problem jumping in!  That is what forums are for!

I have been using MLO for like 10 years I think.... but I am trying a new work flow method and thus ran into this new need.

Sorry, I did not want to imply that I think folders turn up everywhere, I know they do not.

Yes, indeed, I agree folders are to organize content, and being able to give them a completion status really is not logical, 

Thus, my real question was if we can easily high and unhide folders similar to the way completed tasks can be hidden and unhidden

The answer to that is, I understand, no.

I still think it would be a useful feature however.

Thanks for taking the time to help and explain

Grant

[Eberhard]

Hi Grant,

I don't want to comment on the question whether it makes sense to complete folders or not since it might make sense for you while not for me (I actually use folders only as "containers" hence no real need for me to actually "complete" them).

What you could do though in order to achieve what you're looking for ...

(a) You migth think of an advanced filter rule and exclude "empty" folders by setting the rule "HasIncompleteSubtasks" "is true"

(b) Alternatively you might use flags to set a folder's status (nothing I can do at the moment, waiting, ...). Those flags can have keyboard shortcuts (hence they are really handy and fast to be used). In addition you can use flags in an advanced filter rule, giving you all options to refine your views (selection what you'd like to see, and which itmes should appear to be "hidden").

(c) Last thing (that's what I'm doing) ... you might use custom formatting rules to actually display a folder's status ("empty" od not) by using different icons. That way you even see at a glance whether a folder conatains actionable items, or not (see attached screenshot)

Eberhard

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[Joel Azaria]

Ok so clearly you know about flat vs outline views.  :)

I think Eberhard's suggestion might be an interesting work around for you.

I'm trying to think of workarounds, but I still have a hard time wrapping my head around the use case.  I understand what you're asking for as a function (saw your new thread as well) just not sure I can see how it's useful/you are using it.  Maybe you can describe a use case a bit more specifically (like with a basic example of how this should work in the context of an 'actual' project and when/why you'd later come back to it) and it'll help me or others 'get' what your eventual goal/target is.

For example I was going to suggest that you could move these folders under a branch called "completed".  Either a main branch or a completed branch under that given project.  But upon closer reading, I don't know if that solution would serve you and I concluded that because I'm not sure I really understand how you would choose to use this feature.

Hopefully that's clear and not too rambling-ish..

J.

[Joel Azaria]

So I'm thinking more on this (my "day off" so my mind can kinda wander..)

How does this work Grant?

I assume this is basically a property or smth to filter on?  iow, in an unfiltered outline (All Tasks view) these would be visible, right?  (or otherwise how would you access them in the future?)

So, functionally you want to automatically set a property when all the folder contents (sub-items) are complete?

What about if it was manual?

For example if you mark the folder as 'Hide the branch in to-do' it will appear in outline but greyed out.  I'm not sure if you can adjust this color in mlo options (probably can) but I fined it effective for letting me look past certain things.

Another way is maybe based on a flag, context, special string, etc. and make a view that is outline-based and filters nothing except that one property.  I'd probably do it with contexts myself but iirc flags can have kybd shortcut keys assigned, which could be a big plus.

Do any of these speak to what you want?

Maybe it's easier to ask the devs to automate smth existing vs creating a whole new functionality from scratch.  In fact, (thinking out loud here) maybe this can be automated with MLO's rules as they stand now.

[Grant]

Hi All!

 

Thanks for the interest.  Indeed, filters might be a solution.  Regardless, Here is my use scenario, so you can understand what triggered this question.

 

My use scenerio is based on the personal planning approach called Agile Results. http://www.30daysofgettingresults.com/

 

Here you define your desired outcomes for the day, week, month, year etc. These are not tasks or projects per se. (see ‘Day 3’ in the above link). Tasks and Projects are managed under ‘Activities’ and ’ Projects’ section in the way we are all used to.

 

I want to have these outcomes visible in MLO, since they influence my task choice on any given day.

 

My structure would be to have a folder for ‘Daily Outcomes’ and under that a folder for each day of the week. Then the outcomes themselves are OK to enter as a task. My goal is to keep the visual complexity of this outline to a minimum.

 

I do not want to see the folders from previous days. I only need to see the daily outcome folder for today (and maybe future days if they have an entry already). This can be managed manual, say with a check box (under properties, or make folders icons checkable), or automatically using an number of test, for example, when all underlying tasks are marked complete, OR, hide after a particular date.

 

Then, later, I do want to see them on Friday when I do my weekly review, thus I want to turn on the visibility again. The simple approach to this would be to have a universal command to make all hidden folders visible again. This has the disadvantage that I will see every daily outcome folder I ever hide... which could be hundreds. I can manage this by moving them after the week is done to a separate folder that I can easily collapse.

 

The above is one use case for Daily outcomes. I will also want to hide weekly comes, etc.

 

Ideally would if the ’ make folders visible ’ we could choose a date range. But that is a wish for now, but not a requirement (unless this becomes a feature of MLO, then it is probably handy as it seems to fit the Views approach with the ability to see date ranges as an option (last 7 days, etc).

 

Now, before we go nuts with this, I can do a lot of this by making my ’Daily Outcomes’ folders tasks instead. It only that its visually not as practical. On the other hand, the ability to hide individual folders on command, next to the ability to hide and unhide completed tasks and projects might be useful in other user scenarios.

[Joel Azaria]

Ok Grant,  I have a few thoughts to share now.

1.  If I understand you correctly, you don't care if the top-level item (what you call 'Folder') actually IS a folder, so long as it LOOK LIKE one.  Is that correct?

  1.1  I think I have  a solid workaround for you.  See below.

2.  As I read your use case, I more and more get the feeling that what you're asking for is actually MLO's Goals feature - save for the fact that there is no 'daily' goal atm.  But otherwise I think it's almost exactly what you're needing it for.   It marks the items in a special way, it gives them a tiny bump in score, already has views that feature/highlight Goals and, working with Formatting Rules, let's you define it's icon and appearance so it can look like visually just like a folder.  Basically you may find that your actual improvement request could be to add "Daily" to the existing goals feature (as opposed to requesting hidden folders as new functionality from scratch.)

  2.1  In my imagined use case, you create your Daily Outcomes but leave them as tasks (ie. not marked as MLO folder) and mark it a goal (Daily for example).

  2.2  In MLO's Formatting Rules you can define what Icon to use for the Goal so you can make MLO represent this as a plain Folder icon.  You could also make a special icon - a Folder with a colored corner for example or some other symbol - for just these Daily Outcome goals and have MLO apply that.

  2.3  When you're done with the Outcome you check it off like a task and it hides like a completed task.  You leave it marked as Goal so it retains it's folder icon when you visually scan/review it.

  2.4  Profit.  :)

Does that work?

If so, here's your workaround for right now.  The same way the formatting rules apply to the 'Goal' so too can you do this based on anything else, like a flag or a special context.  Flags can have keyboard hotkeys which seems convenient so for example, based on a Blue flag:

1. Add a blank rule
   
2. Click "Condition", In the next window that pops up, click "Add rule"
3. "Flag" "=" "Blue Flag", click OK.
4. Check "Use Icon", click the "Icon" button to the left and select the yellow (typical) folder icon.  Click OK.
5. The "Icon Type" dropdown should say "(Custom)"
   
6. Set the "Icon Position" number to 0
   
7. Click OK to close formatting rules
8. click ok to close MLO Options dialog.

Now any task you set with a Blue flag will have a Folder icon just like any MLO folder.  But.  It will also retain it's check box and it will actually behave like a task (wrt completed/not)

If you don't want Blue Flag, set any criteria you want.

hth.

[Dwight Arthur]

Hi, Grant. I like Joel's use of goals as the basis for a solution. If it were me, I think I would have a folder per day and a view that used the HasUncompletedSubtasks filter to hide any folder that didn't have tasks left to do.

I just wanted to make one more point. I understand your point about doing a review on Friday and wanting to look back at the completed tasks of the past week. But it sounds like you would be changing a characteristic of the folders to make them visible. I wouldn't have wanted to do that, because it isn't the folder, or the day it represents, or the tasks it contains that's changing. It's just that you are using it for a different kind of analysis. So I would have a different view. A view for today which shows all daily outcomes folders which have uncompleted subtasks, together with the hierarchy of subtasks below each. And a view for weekly analysis that shows all daily outcomes folders, not hiding any of them, along with their hierarchies of subtasks.

-Dwight
MLO Betazoid on Windows, Cloud and Android SGN2

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[Grant]

Joel, Dwight,

Thank you very much for taking this seriously and working out a solution!  It sounds like what Joel defines should do the job.  I apologize for not replying earlier, but I have swamped at work (and leveraging MLO to help, just not my Agile Results enough yet!) and did not have my morning ´self´ time protected well enough!  I will give your approach a try and let you know how it works.

Grant

[Grant]

Hi, When I am setting a new rule, and use ´flag =´ the next dropdown box does not show any icons, it just says <none>.  What am I doing wrong?

Thanks, Grant

[Andrei Bacean]

Hi Grant
Have you added any flags to your Mlo profile?
I'm not in front of the pc but it seems that the flags may be managed through "Tools/manage flags" menu.
Check also the flag properties, maybe there is a checkbooks which hide it.
Br
Andrei

[Grant]

Hi Andrei,

No I had not, I thought that was done by default.  I have added a few now.

Thanks!

Grant